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    moonglow

    Grand jury has decided not to indict Police Officer Darren Wilson

    Thread Starter: moonglow

    Of course rioting is already going on there in Ferguson ..its really bad. Please take a moment to pray. This is the ABC news link about it which includes a video:...

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    luigi

    The wine of her fornication

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    http://news.yahoo.com/photos/black-friday-shoppers-clash-in-the-u-k-1417194088-slideshow/ Anyone think this may be the wine of Babylons fornication that she makes the world drunk with? Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying...

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    keras

    The Day of the Lord is at hand for all nations.

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    Obadiah 1:15-21 The Day of the Lord is at hand for all the nations, they will be treated as they have treated others and their wrong actions will recoil upon themselves. My people will drink the wine of Gods wrath, then all the nations in turn will...

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    divaD

    The same events? Different events?

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    This has come up before and is also being discussed a little bit in a current thread. So why don't we take a closer look then. Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in...

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    luigi

    Jewish Nation

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    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/world/middleeast/israeli-cabinet-backs-nationality-bill-that-risks-wider-rift-with-arab-minority.html?_r=0 Israel has passed a bill that claims itself to be a Jewish nation, above its being a democratic nation....

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    Amencorner

    Bible life blog.

    Hello if you would like to listen to an audio please follow the link to Amencorner by Alan ... I Have put all my audio posts on my front page so if you follow the link and see what you think ......

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  • Who were the "sons of God" in Genesis 6?

    Though not dogmatic about the issue, I believe a case can be made that the "sons of God" refer to godly descendants of Adam, rather than fallen angels, and "daughters of men" to ungodly heathen women. The one question that most suggests the "sons" may have been supernatural is, "why would the union of ordinary godly men and ungodly women produce such extraordinary children?" After all, the union between godly and ungodly people today do not produce unusual offspring, so why would it have done so in ancient times?

    In that regard, a point often overlooked is that the Hebrew word NEPHIYL--translated "giants" in the KJV, actually extends far beyond the context of great physical size. Besides physical giants such as the sons of Anak, and Goliath and his brothers, the word NEPHIYL can also refer simply to men of great notoriety--"mental giants," or "larger-than-life personalities--usually in a negative context, such as a bully or tyrant. We're told that the children born to the sons of God and daughters of men became the "mighty ones" in the earth, "men of renown." The same Hebrew word for mighty ones, (GIBBOWR), is used to describe Noah's great grandson, Nimrod--the first great secular monarch named in the Bible:

    And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.
    He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD. (Gen 10:8-9)

    From the text, we can conclude that there were strong, ungodly men before the Flood, just as Nimrod typified such individuals after the Flood. "There were giants in those days, and also after..." (Gen 6:4)

    So remarkable was the hunting prowess and charisma of this celebrated ruler, that his name became proverbial with great hunting skill--just as Einstein's name today is synonymous with scientific genius. ("That guy is a regular Einstein"). Yet, we should note carefully that the Hebrew word translated "before" in Gen 10:9, can mean against, or in opposition to. In that context, Nimrod can be seen as a rebellious figure, who opposed God and his purposes, leading the people of his kingdom away from God--both a catalyst and symbol of rebellious, ungodly mankind.

    Seeing that the common language of man was uniting man toward evil intent, God somehow divided human speech into separate languages, effectively dispersing mankind throughout the earth into separate nations, according to that group's tongue. He destroyed the unification of mankind because it was united against Him--rallying around the joint project of constructing the tower of Babel. This tower was meant to "reach unto heaven," intended to be a refuge from any future flood God might send. (This clearly demonstrates an ignorance of the ungodly of God's promise to never again send such a flood). The tower itself, by it's very intent, became a lasting symbol of man's rebellion against God.

    The Hebrew word nephiyl conveys the idea of being "cast down" or "fallen." This is used by some to suggest that the sons of God were fallen angels--which is reasonable and logical. But let's not forget the fallen spiritual condition of man--the result of choosing the same rebellion against God's authority that Satan and the fallen angels had: unsaved mankind and the rebellious angels share the same destiny because they share the same depraved, fallen nature. If we view the "sons of God" as the faithful people of God, in contrast to the ungodly majority upon the earth, it's not hard to see that term as denoting those descendants of Adam who remained faithful to God in the midst of ungodliness and the worship of false gods.

    In Genesis 4:25-26, we learn that, in the time of Adam's grandson Enos, people began to call themselves by the name of the Lord, apparently referring to the first organized congregation of the Lord. We can assume that, from that time until the Flood, the Lord had a small group that called themselves the Lord's people, and who lived holy, distinguishing themselves from the ungodliness around them--as do true saints today.
    Fast forward to the time immediately prior to the Flood: the descendants of Adam had multiplied greatly in number, nearly all choosing the path of Cain into unrighteousness and rebellion against God. We read that the whole world of that time was steeped in violence and wickedness, and grew worse with each generation.

    Now, let's suppose that, in the years preceding the Flood, even godly men began to fall away from God's precepts, and began to take multiple wives from among the beautiful but ungodly heathen women--perhaps painting their eyes and faces, and dressing in a provocative way, like ancient Jezebels. And suppose these men were lured farther away from God by the licentious pagan religions of these women and began to worship their false gods and godesses. Consider the "sons of God" marrying the "daughters of men" in that context: even those who once maintained the faith of Abel, Seth and Enoch, had abandoned God as a result of embracing the idolatrous practices of pagan wives. This would explain the bearing that intermarriage had on the increase of sin and corruption as implied in the text--without necessitating the involvement of angels, or any other supernatural being. This trend of ever-increasing corruption would certainly explain why God saw the world as hopelessly decadent, and a lost cause:

    God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. (Gen 5:17-18 NIV)

    This same spiritual infidelity--which God equated to whoredom, would later be manifested repeatedly among the Hebrews. It was because of the danger of such corruption that God had forbidden His people to intermarry with the heathen nations, clearly warning them of the inevitable consequences (Deut 7:1-4). Their refusal to heed God's warnings eventually culminated in their going into Gentile captivity--Israel, into Assyria, and then Judah, into Babylon. Since they insisted on following after the gods of foreigners, God allowed them to fall under the oppressive yoke of foreigners. Indeed, it was the influence of pagan women that caused the spiritual downfall of Solomon. He foolishly sought to appease them by building structures for them to honor their false gods and goddesses--using the very wealth God had blessed him with!

    So then, a case can easily be made that the sons of God were not angels, but instead, godly men who had departed from the faith--accentuating the corruptible nature of man, and hastening the decision of God to "amputate" the ungodly members of humanity in order to preserve a godly seed from which he could prepare and train a people to receive His Redeemer. This people would eventually come out of Abraham, a direct descendant of Noah through Shem, born some 10 generations later--and possessing the same unwavering faith in God that Noah had.

    As far as physical giants suggesting angelic fatherhood, we might note that Robert Wadlow (1918-1940), was just one inch shy of being 9 feet tall--probably not much shorter than Goliath. Wadlow's uncommon size has been attributed to a pituitary gland disorder, and To my knowledge, neither he nor his father has ever been suspected of being anything other ordinary human beings. Additionally, it's not uncommon to see equally mortal men today, who stand 7 feet tall, or taller.

    So then, I think we can explain everything about Genesis 6 without the sons of God being supernatural beings. We cannot rule out the influence of malevolent spirits in the affairs of mankind (no pun intended), but with regard to the intermarriage and corruption described in Genesis 6, it seems unnecessary for angels to have fathered any children. Moreover, while open to debate, it seems unlikely that God would create eternally-existing spirits with unnecessary biological functions for physical procreation. At any rate, this issue has always been, and will no doubt continue to be, a matter of speculation and debate. And that's fine. Discussion and comparing views is how we learn.
    Comments 50 Comments
    1. edurda's Avatar
      edurda -
      kahtar

      Yes, the entities referred to as sons of God in Job 38 are angels. They are not fallen angels otherwise they would not be joyous before God they would be grumbling in the background or something.

      My point is this (in reference to Job)... Satan was among the sons of God. If I were to write a book and say that Noah, among the animals, entered the Ark and etc... this would not be enough reason to assume that Noah was an animal. It simply means that Noah was among the animals when he entered the ark. I guess what I‘m trying to say is that it's possible that the author of Job meant for us to understand that the sons of God were presenting themselves to God and Satan in his cunning and crafty ways thought he could slip into His presence. And he is not a son of God but he figured that he could slip in with the group. This is pure speculation, I know, but this is one way to see it. Sorry if I sound like I’m obsessing over this key point.

      Nobody denies the phrase “sons of God” refer to angels, but can't it also refer to man? I have a question. Are their other phrases that work this way also where they have dual meaning based on context but kinda mysterious as well.

      I don't know how to address the idea of DNA manipulation or anything like that. You should write a book and make a movie about it and put the Gospel in somehow, I would buy a for all my co-workers. It sounds like one of those new age/aliens/end of world theories my co-workers tell me about. They believe that aliens, who Christians call demons or fallen angels, modified human DNA in the past and we are all coming up to another one-thousand years of enlightenment when the Mayan calendar resets and well realize the reason for the pyramids etc...

      It's tempting to speculate further about this but I suppose it would explain some oddities in this world if I allowed it to. Is any more scripture found anywhere else about this topic in the bible?
    1. Redeemed by Grace's Avatar
      Redeemed by Grace -
      Quote Originally Posted by Kahtar View Post
      I think this is as much a possibility as the others (now I have to add one to my list, .) I do have a question, but I'm not looking for you to answer it, only consider it (although if you do come up with an answer, please share ): If angels are able to and did 'possess' human men and subsequently mated with women, is that not still using the seed of man, and why would that then cause either physical giants, or powerful leader types?
      Hi Kahtar,

      Here's what I see within Scriptures and what I'm thinking.... There may not be a correlation between the possession of these angels within men as to being the off-spring of giants or powerful leaders. It might just be just a descriptor of another group of peoples around then and not a cause and effect by the disobedience of the sons of God, if I'm being clear here. Please allow me to try and explain further.

      In careful reading of the text, the Nephilim, or strong men who dominate others - precedes the sons of God taking daughters of men, so the relationship is they are somewhere 'in the house' during this time when the sons of God came to the daughters of men, but the text doesn't say that the Nephilm were the fathers of these offspring, per se, just that they too were alive at this time, who were then known as the mighty men of old and renown within 6:4b, and not to the off-spring as stated in 6:4a. Thus these children, those who were born as a cause of the sons of God and these women, were wicked and evil continually, for which God then judges these angels and all of Mankind, less 8....

      This might be difficult to follow, but hope it came across clear... The giants and powerful leaders preceded the union of the sons of God in men and procreation with their women... [for we know that angels don't marry nor do they reproduce themselves as God has given man to do].

      And then as to giants--- it makes a bit of sense today that there are very tall people and very short people... and it wasn't because of the fallen angels, but because God made them as such.... However it's the sin of those angels that helped exacerbate the sin of mankind where as it was evil and continual, the judgement on both those angels for leaving their domain and on man for his continual evilness.

      My 2cents... This is a very interesting passage to say the least, but 2 Peter 2:4,5 and Jude 6 help shed some light as to what Moses was telling us it means.
    1. Lone Arranger's Avatar
      Lone Arranger -
      Kahtar, first of all thanks for the laughs - the ugly women thing.

      But as far as genetic manipulations, what you said here, "...today scientists are able (and do) clone sheep and other creatures(no seed necessary, only the DNA is required). Animals are now able, through DNA manipulation, to grow human parts, or, mostly human parts. So seriously, fallen angels having reproductive capabilities is not even necessary for them to 'go in unto the daughters of men'."

      I have to disagree with that being what happened simply because scripture states the reason they mated with human women was because they sexually desired them. While genetic manipulation would serve to corrupt the human race, no doubt a high priority of satan's, it wouldn't be a lust based decision which is what the scriptures state happened.

      I've always wondered why they would lust after human women. Could it be another example of envy? "Look what God has made! A human that has the power to make more humans!," they might reason. Something satan could never do. He wanted to be like God, but only God could make humans. Maybe the lust was envy once again, the ability to create humans, that drove the fallen angels to mate with humans and produce their own corrupted type of human being in an attempt to be like God and to challenge Him. Of course it still doesn't explain how they could produce the required chromosomes.

      I don't hold to the Book of Enoch as we have it. It's not part of cannon, but if any of what it says about this offspring is true then they were truly monsters indeed.
    1. Sojourner55's Avatar
      Sojourner55 -
      Hi guys. Again, we have no clear, representative picture, because some key pieces of the puzzle are missing, leaving us to speculate as we try to fill in the blanks. As such, neither view is conclusive. Yet, I have to wonder: had we not been influenced by the Jewish traditions about fallen angels, would we have made that connection, and assumed angelic complicity? Or would we simply consider "the sons of God" in the same context that Adam is called the son of God--or as indeed, all human believers are? (Just a thought that occurred to me).

      Regarding extra-Biblical sources as evidence for the fallen angel view (the Tanakh, Josephus, the book of Enoch, etc.): the accuracy and reliability of any part of these sources must be the standard by which we assess each as a whole. The Bible is held to this standard, and so should all other sources of reference: all or nothing. In that regard, while the book of Enoch was quoted by Jude, (nearly excluding it from the canon of Scripture), we should weigh the validity of its claim that the nephilim were well over 400 feet tall! That's over a hundred feet taller than the torch of the statue of liberty! One thing is certain: if the nephilim were that big, we can rule out their having fathered any children by human women. (Were there any female giants)?

      Finally. we should remember that the nephilim are called "mighty men" (GIBBOR). This is the very term used to describe Nimrod, a grandson of Noah, and whose father Cush is presumed to be completely human. (Though we cannot rule out the genetic factor). The point is, the nephilim at least includes men of normal stature and appearance, while expanding the definition of nephilim to mean, men of great power and notoriety. ("larger than life?") Anyway, just a few points I thought I'd add to the discussion. Keep it going!
    1. Kahtar's Avatar
      Kahtar -
      That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. Genesis 6:2
      There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:4
      Lest confusion sets in, let's look at the words:
      'sons of God' is translated from bene elohiym בניH1121 האלהיםH430 literally sons of gods
      'daughters of men' is translated from bath adam בנותH1323 האדםH120 bath is literally the feminine of 1121 sons, thus daughters of human beings, mankind.
      'fair' is translated from tob טבתH2896 literally good, ie a good man or good woman, also as an adverb beautiful, best, better, etc.
      'giants' is translated from nephiyl הנפליםH5303 literally a feller, bully tyrant , and comes from the root word naphal, meaning fall, inferior.

      In verse 2, in the Hebrew, The 'sons of God' appear to be set apart and distinct from the human beings and their offspring, which, coupled with the usage of the term in the book of Job would in itself lead one to consider the possibility that the 'sons of God' were not human beings.
      The nephilim are the giants. They presumably are the offspring of the union of the sons of God and daughters of humans. And, from the word itself we learn that they, the offspring, are fallen. So not just the sons of God are fallen here, but the offspring as well.
      As for clear sexual relations, it's not so clear in my mind. The sons of God 'came in unto' the daughters of men. The Hebrew suggests 'come near to', or 'come towards'. When compared to Adam and Eve, a different term is used in regard to sexual relations, and that is 'yada', to know. Adam 'knew' his wife, and she conceived.
      It doesn't say clearly that the sons of God had sexual relations, or that they knew the daughters of men, it says they came near or towards them. So there is a difference. I'll leave it to your (carefully guarded) imaginations from there tho.

      As for extra-Biblical references, they are, well, extra-Biblical, thus not cannon, thus not infallible. But, in this particular case, we have the brother of Jesus (one of Mary's other sons), and Peter, a very prominent Apostle of Christ, that are quoting the book of Enoch.
      While Jude may have been questioned, and 'barely made it' into the cannon, Peter was not.
      Since I had an external hard-drive crash, I do not currently have a copy of any of the translations of the purported Book of Enoch, so I cannot comment on the size of the angels in any of those translations. 400 feet seems a bit overboard, and honestly I don't remember reading that number in any of them, but again, I cannot say for sure.
    1. Sojourner55's Avatar
      Sojourner55 -
      Kahtar, Here is the pertinent text from the book of Enoch, from a website I randomly selected from among several:

      1. And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. 2. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.' 3. And Semjz, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' 4. And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' 5. Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. 6. And they were in all two hundred; who descended ⌈in the days⌉ of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. 7. And these are the names of their leaders: Smazz, their leader, Arkba, Rml, Kkabl, Tml, Rml, Dnl, zql, Barqjl, Asl, Armrs, Batrl, Annl, Zaql, Samspl, Satarl, Trl, Jmjl, Saril. 8. These are their chiefs of tens.
      (Enoch 6:1-8)

      Enoch VII
      1. And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. 2. And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: 3. Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, 4. the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. 5. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. 6. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.
      (Enoch 7:1-6)

      An "ell" equals a cubit, and the Biblical cubit = 18 inches. At 3000 cubits, or 5400 feet, these guys would have stood over 3/4 of a mile high. Maybe this isn't supposed to be literal, but it's still outlandish--as is their devouring of mankind. There is a lot of strange stuff in here, considering it was cited by an apostle of Jesus. But then, there is some strange stuff in some ancient Jewish legends that would have been accepted in that day. Again, I'm not trying to undermine your view (though it may seem like it). It's just that if we are to gain any insight into the truth (if indeed we can), we have to see if our supports will hold up under critical scrutiny. Incidentally, her's a link to a scholarly article in the Jewish Encyclopedia, about three races of giants, of which the nephilim were only one. You might find it interesting.
    1. Kahtar's Avatar
      Kahtar -
      Quote Originally Posted by Sojourner55 View Post
      Incidentally, her's a link to a scholarly article in the Jewish Encyclopedia, about three races of giants, of which the nephilim were only one. You might find it interesting.
      Interesting article. I was aware of the different races.
      One thing that this article clearly shows is that even the Hebrews did not agree on the issue, and that our current thoughts and surmisings have been around a a very long time.
      1 mile = 5280 feet, thus 3000 ells is over a mile.
    1. Sojourner55's Avatar
      Sojourner55 -
      Quote Originally Posted by Kahtar View Post
      Interesting article. I was aware of the different races.
      One thing that this article clearly shows is that even the Hebrews did not agree on the issue, and that our current thoughts and surmisings have been around a a very long time. 1 mile = 5280 feet, thus 3000 ells is over a mile.
      Oops. Didn't have my thinking cap on with the math there, did I? I'll tell you what though...if the sons of Anak had been that big, I think even Caleb and Joshua might have agreed with the rest of the spies. They really would have been like grasshoppers next to the giants!
      And you're right: the nephilim debate has intrigued people for centuries; and they were as divided and uncertain as we are today.
    1. Curby Wheeler's Avatar
      Curby Wheeler -
      You are very well-spoken and present your argument very well, though I disagree with you.

      The error some fall into is to assume that the "sons of God" were "angels". If it says they were sons of God, why does anybody jump to the conclusion they were angels? They were sons of God, not angels.

      Just look at the untold number of living beings just on earth! Why do people jump to the wholesale conclusion that there's only one kind of heavenly being? The Greek word for angel literally means messenger. As a matter of fact, it's translated messenger a number of times because sometimes it clearly doesn't refer to a heavenly being.

      Luke tells us that Adam was a son of God. He was a direct creation of God, was appointed a dominion, was obligated to obey his sovereign creator and he was granted free-will. Are these the characteristics of other sons of God? Possibly.

      We now know there are literally trillions of stars! Is Elohim limited in his creative capacity? Heck no! Just look at the variety of life just on earth! Did he create life elsewhere in this vast universe? Heck yeah, it says so in Genesis 6, it refers to sons of God that mated with daughters of men.

      It says giants were born unto them. I have personally seen the skeleton of a 12 foot man. Extraordinarily tall human skeletons are well-documented in archeology. They're not discussed much because they contradict the theory-tale of evolution, but they're part of the archeological record nonetheless.

      God told Adam and Eve that the "seed of the woman" would be the instrument through whom salvation would come.

      If you were the one who tempted Eve to sin, wouldn't you want to corrupt the genetic makeup of the human race so the prophecy could never be fulfilled? After all, if the seed of womankind is mingled with DNA from other sons of God, that would make the prophecy moot, wouldn't it?

      You will notice that Noah was "pure in his generations". Big clue! He and his family had not mingled with the insurgent sons of God.

      Only Noah and his family were preserved through the flood. Yes, after the flood, another attempt was made to corrupt the seed of mankind, but God saw to it that it was also thwarted.

      Anyway, that's my view. God bless.
    1. zoe4me's Avatar
      zoe4me -
      Study of Dead Sea Scrolls, will clear of this teaching about sons of God being Adams descendants. They were 200 watchers angels sent to earth to observe mankind. In the dead sea scrolls they found 2 more old testament historical books we don'y have in our English bibles. Of the top 16 O.T. books 39 copies of Psalms were found making it number one. The second book was Deuteronomy @ 33 copies or piece of copies, Ranked third was the book of Enoch with 25 copies, Genesis @ 24 copies, Isaiah @ 22 copies, Seventh was Jubilees with 21 Copies, and the list gets smaller. The book of Esther was the only O.T. book not found. These two new historical book were canon during Jesus time so why are they not now. They clearly explain the sons of God in Genesis 6.
      I have always had a problem with the NUMBER of books in our bible. 66 books, come on Christrians, the number 6 says not complete and it is the number of man and 66 doubles the meaning of six. Then there is the number 666 we all know. THERE IS AT LEAST 70 BOOKS and here is two of them. These books will totally answer this discussion once and for all. The books can be ordered from Amazon. The dead sea scrolls is the greatest discovery of our time.
    1. zoe4me's Avatar
      zoe4me -
      If you have questions as to whether these giants existed and you don't want to believe the word of God. I suggest you look at the fossil record. On the web type in giant sheletons or giant shulls and you will find all the proof you should need.
      Jude quotes the book of Enoch. Jude says these bad angels are imprisoned until the judgement of the great day. Well you have to answer the question why are some bad angels put in prison and some are free to cause us so much trouble.
      Verse 7 of the book of Jude says, Just as Sodom and Gomorrah-------ANGELS IN THE SAME WAY AS SODOM AND GOMORRAH indulged in gross sexual sins and went AFTER STRANGE FLESH or flesh that was different than their own kind . Sodom had a problem, they were having sex with animals, angels were having sex with humans.
      Plus 2 Peter 2:4-5 tells us that these angels spoken of in Jude caused the flood during Noah's day.
      Plus 1 Peter 3:20 comfirms this also. These bad angels did this act during Noah's day not during the time of Adams and Eve.
      The book of Jude, epistles of Peter, book of Genesis, Book of Enoch, Book of Jubilees, and the book of Jasher tell about this event when the sons of God (angels) tryed to distroy God's creation. Which caused God to send the flood and destroy all their children. He took these 200 angels and imprisoned them in the earth in a place called Tartarus. The spirits of the giants which were half angel and half human were left to roam the earth after the flood. Fallen angels and demons are two different beings. THESE ARE THE DEMONS that are without a body. They get in human bodies til this day causing all kind of sickness. Jesus cast out demons because they were causing sickness and then He healed the body. Noah came to God complaining about these very spirits and said they were destroying his families. In response God imprisoned these spirits also. But Satan then came complaining to God and said he could not properly temp man without these demons. God then release 10% of them to assist Satan. This story is found in the book of Jubilees.
    1. Sojourner55's Avatar
      Sojourner55 -
      Quote Originally Posted by zoe4me View Post
      If you have questions as to whether these giants existed and you don't want to believe the word of God. I suggest you look at the fossil record. On the web type in giant sheletons or giant shulls and you will find all the proof you should need.
      Jude quotes the book of Enoch. Jude says these bad angels are imprisoned until the judgement of the great day. Well you have to answer the question why are some bad angels put in prison and some are free to cause us so much trouble.
      Verse 7 of the book of Jude says, Just as Sodom and Gomorrah-------ANGELS IN THE SAME WAY AS SODOM AND GOMORRAH indulged in gross sexual sins and went AFTER STRANGE FLESH or flesh that was different than their own kind . Sodom had a problem, they were having sex with animals, angels were having sex with humans.
      Plus 2 Peter 2:4-5 tells us that these angels spoken of in Jude caused the flood during Noah's day.
      Plus 1 Peter 3:20 comfirms this also. These bad angels did this act during Noah's day not during the time of Adams and Eve.
      The book of Jude, epistles of Peter, book of Genesis, Book of Enoch, Book of Jubilees, and the book of Jasher tell about this event when the sons of God (angels) tryed to distroy God's creation. Which caused God to send the flood and destroy all their children. He took these 200 angels and imprisoned them in the earth in a place called Tartarus. The spirits of the giants which were half angel and half human were left to roam the earth after the flood. Fallen angels and demons are two different beings. THESE ARE THE DEMONS that are without a body. They get in human bodies til this day causing all kind of sickness. Jesus cast out demons because they were causing sickness and then He healed the body. Noah came to God complaining about these very spirits and said they were destroying his families. In response God imprisoned these spirits also. But Satan then came complaining to God and said he could not properly temp man without these demons. God then release 10% of them to assist Satan. This story is found in the book of Jubilees.
      1. You should not presume a disbelief in the Word of God on the part of those who disagree with your interpretation of Scripture. There are pros and cons regarding both popular positions on the sons of God--which should be clear if you actually read the discussions. Unless you have evidence that God spoke to you personally about the matter, you should use caution in assuming that disagreement with your views, with disbelief in the Bible.

      2. You should do a little research about the authenticity of things like the giant skeletons, before you stake your credibility and reputation on them. The images you refer to have proved to be computer-generated entries in a digital artist competition:

      http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors...cal-Giants.htm
      http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...res/index.html
    1. zoe4me's Avatar
      zoe4me -
      Quote Originally Posted by Sojourner55 View Post
      1. You should not presume a disbelief in the Word of God on the part of those who disagree with your interpretation of Scripture. There are pros and cons regarding both popular positions on the sons of God--which should be clear if you actually read the discussions. Unless you have evidence that God spoke to you personally about the matter, you should use caution in assuming that disagreement with your views, with disbelief in the Bible.

      2. You should do a little research about the authenticity of things like the giant skeletons, before you stake your credibility and reputation on them. The images you refer to have proved to be computer-generated entries in a digital artist competition:

      http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors...cal-Giants.htm
      http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...res/index.html
      1.Yes God does speak to me almost every day. I speak to my Heavenly Father every day, it is called a relationship. You can not have much of a relationship without communication. Does God not speak to you? John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice (HEAR MY VOICE), and I know them, and they follow Me. Don't you hear the voice of God". If you don't then you are not a sojourner. The Holy Spirit, who is the third person of the God Head, John 16:13 "He will guide you into ALL THE TRUTH". He dwells within me and communicates with me. And yes His Spirit has confirmed that the sons of God in Genesis 6 are fallen Angels! The dead sea scrolls provided more books of the bible. 66 books is just not all of the canon. God is more about 70 that He is 66! The 4 books that have been missing gives much more of the history on Genesis 1-6. The devil hates these missing books. The people that support your view have little if no evidence. Just because people believe something, don't make it true. Just like the dumb theory of evolution. Just because over 55% of the scientist believe it don't make it true and is not evidence for the theory. Read 1John 2:27 "His anointing teaches you about all things and is true is not a lie,"

      2. I have done a lot of research in my life time and the two web links, you gave me, are produced and supported by Evolutionist that filter out everything in the fossil record that provide proof for these Giants. The Giant human half angel fossils and the strange skulls that are found all over the earth are not aliens but the children of the fallen angels. You need to reconsider after giving me these two evolution links. Evolution has zero, not any evidence for its existence and is only supported by our tax dollars or it would die. I truly don't mean to offend you. God is all about TRUTH, the word of God is sharper that a two edged sword. My responsibility is the put forth the truth and it is not my responsibility to make anyone believe. May the God of Creation bless you. I will bring you before my Father in the morning and ask Him to remove the blindness from your eyes that prevent you from seeing the truth, Be sure to watch this first link I sent you.

      P.S. Her are some links to the fossil record on Giants. These are not in a photo contest. Watch this evidence on u-tube.

      AWESOME VIDEO EVIDENCE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR7_r...feature=fvwrel

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccbdjiOl0hs&NR=1
      http://fooyoh.com/car_video/watch/fWZF9ZYXlJU
      http://fooyoh.com/car_video/watch/zl8Hmko2wlo
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X09ui...eature=related
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC8wW...eature=related
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMofrAm_xhE&feature=fvsr
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=...ture=endscreen
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO-Rb...feature=fvwrel
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0G-B...eature=related
    1. zoe4me's Avatar
      zoe4me -
      Quote Originally Posted by edurda View Post
      kahtar

      Yes, the entities referred to as sons of God in Job 38 are angels. They are not fallen angels otherwise they would not be joyous before God they would be grumbling in the background or something.

      My point is this (in reference to Job)... Satan was among the sons of God. If I were to write a book and say that Noah, among the animals, entered the Ark and etc... this would not be enough reason to assume that Noah was an animal. It simply means that Noah was among the animals when he entered the ark. I guess what Im trying to say is that it's possible that the author of Job meant for us to understand that the sons of God were presenting themselves to God and Satan in his cunning and crafty ways thought he could slip into His presence. And he is not a son of God but he figured that he could slip in with the group. This is pure speculation, I know, but this is one way to see it. Sorry if I sound like Im obsessing over this key point.

      Nobody denies the phrase sons of God refer to angels, but can't it also refer to man? I have a question. Are their other phrases that work this way also where they have dual meaning based on context but kinda mysterious as well.

      I don't know how to address the idea of DNA manipulation or anything like that. You should write a book and make a movie about it and put the Gospel in somehow, I would buy a for all my co-workers. It sounds like one of those new age/aliens/end of world theories my co-workers tell me about. They believe that aliens, who Christians call demons or fallen angels, modified human DNA in the past and we are all coming up to another one-thousand years of enlightenment when the Mayan calendar resets and well realize the reason for the pyramids etc...

      It's tempting to speculate further about this but I suppose it would explain some oddities in this world if I allowed it to. Is any more scripture found anywhere else about this topic in the bible?
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR7_r...feature=fvwrel
    1. zoe4me's Avatar
      zoe4me -
      Quote Originally Posted by Kahtar View Post
      I think your study is as much a possibility as the 'angel' interpretation. A couple questions, tho.
      1. What did Jude mean about the angels leaving their 'first estate'?
      2. Why is the idea that fallen angels left their first estate to take on human form and then procreate such a distasteful one?
      Well, okay, more than a couple questions,
      3. Considering the fact that man can and does today manipulate genes so that pigs and other creatures can grow human parts, clone animals (and man if the truth were known), why is it so beyond the realm of possibility that the fallen angels were playing with the same thing?
      4. Why, out of all the people groups on the planet, did God single out that one race, in which were the physical giants like Goliath, for total annihilation by Jacob's children? All other gentile nations were allowed to be prosylytes, all nations were to be blessed through the seed of Abraham, but that one nation was to be wiped out completely. Why no mercy for them?
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR7_r...feature=fvwrel
    1. Sojourner55's Avatar
      Sojourner55 -
      Quote Originally Posted by zoe4me View Post
      1.Yes God does speak to me almost every day. I speak to my Heavenly Father every day, it is called a relationship. You can not have much of a relationship without communication. Does God not speak to you? John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice (HEAR MY VOICE), and I know them, and they follow Me. Don't you hear the voice of God". If you don't then you are not a sojourner. The Holy Spirit, who is the third person of the God Head, John 16:13 "He will guide you into ALL THE TRUTH". He dwells within me and communicates with me. And yes His Spirit has confirmed that the sons of God in Genesis 6 are fallen Angels! The dead sea scrolls provided more books of the bible. 66 books is just not all of the canon. God is more about 70 that He is 66! The 4 books that have been missing gives much more of the history on Genesis 1-6. The devil hates these missing books. The people that support your view have little if no evidence. Just because people believe something, don't make it true. Just like the dumb theory of evolution. Just because over 55% of the scientist believe it don't make it true and is not evidence for the theory. Read 1John 2:27 "His anointing teaches you about all things and is true is not a lie,"

      2. I have done a lot of research in my life time and the two web links, you gave me, are produced and supported by Evolutionist that filter out everything in the fossil record that provide proof for these Giants. The Giant human half angel fossils and the strange skulls that are found all over the earth are not aliens but the children of the fallen angels. You need to reconsider after giving me these two evolution links. Evolution has not any evidence for its existence and is only supported by our tax dollars or it would die. I truly don't mean to offend you. God is all about TRUTH, the word of God is sharper that a two edged sword. My responsibility is the put forth the truth and it is not my responsibility to make anyone believe. May the God of Creation bless you.

      P.S. Her are some links to the fossil record on Giants. These are not in a photo contest. Watch this evidence on u-tube.

      AWESOME VIDEO EVIDENCE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR7_r...feature=fvwrel

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccbdjiOl0hs&NR=1
      http://fooyoh.com/car_video/watch/fWZF9ZYXlJU
      http://fooyoh.com/car_video/watch/zl8Hmko2wlo
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X09ui...eature=related
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC8wW...eature=related
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMofrAm_xhE&feature=fvsr
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=...ture=endscreen
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO-Rb...feature=fvwrel
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0G-B...eature=related
      None of these videos provide bona fide evidence for the authenticity of your claims. You are obviously convinced that they are genuine, and you are certainly entitled to that opinion. I personally don't put as much importance on the identity of the ancient sons of God as you seem to. It's much more important to me that I am a son of God, and that I share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with others. God bless.
    1. zoe4me's Avatar
      zoe4me -
      1. My bona fided evidence is the word of the living God not these videos. I was just responding to the two heathen evolutionary web links, that came from the kingdom of darkness, you claimed as evidence.

      My evidence is Genesis 6 and the Hebrew words for sons of God, Jude 6 & 7, 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Peter 2:4-5, 1 Enoch chapters 14 & 15, the book of Jubilees and the book of Jasher, plus the over whelming evidence of the Dead Sea Scrolls speaking so much on this subject. That is my evidence.
      Son of God or sons of God are always speaking of beings created by God. Adam was a son of God and all of his children were sons of Adam born in his own likeness and after Adam own image Genesis 5:3, sons of Adam is correct not sons of God. Adam created these sons not God. Sons of God in scriptures in the plural in Hebrew always referrs to angels. This is not a matter of interpretation but a matter of whether you believe the word of God or not.
      Adam - son of God............created by God from the dirt, Perfect
      Angels - sons of God.........created by God, Perfect
      Jesus - Son of God, Perfect,.........God created a seed in the womb of Mary not a seed created by Adam. Because Adam's seed always produces the Sin Nature.

      Sons created by Adam are not sons of God but sons of Adam and all receive the sin nature from Adam and most of them are darkened in their understanding, excluded from the Zoe life of God as found in Ephesians 4:8. You found the time to write the article which shows you are darkened in your understanding. Maybe you should stick to spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its simply ways and not write on the Giants of Genesis 6. I don't mean to offend you but this article you wrote is a serious challenge against the word of God. The dead sea scrolls is a 1000 year older documents of the word of God and closer to Jesus time that He was on the earth. This is a link that may help, look closely at page 12-14 and how many copies they have found of first Enoch and the book of Jubilees.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_scrolls


      2. By what right do you claim to be a son of God, were you created. You are a son of Adam and all the people on the earth are sons of Adam unless you can find any that were created perfect directly by God without a sin nature. A direct creation by God are sons of God and they are always created perfect. Angels were not born but directly created.
      I know that the preaching of the gospel is the most important thing. Our church saw 3060 souls get saved and join the kingdom on Easter Sunday and we baptize 1109 the following sunday. http://churchofthehighlands.com/ I know about winning the lost but you were the one that originated this article with no solid evidence from the word of God concerning the Hebrew words "sons of God". I have prayed for you today and hope you have a blessed day please don't take this the wrong way. I am just defending God's Word.
    1. Sojourner55's Avatar
      Sojourner55 -
      Quote Originally Posted by zoe4me View Post
      1. My bona fided evidence is the word of the living God not these videos. I was just responding to the two heathen evolutionary web links, that came from the kingdom of darkness, you claimed as evidence.
      Well, first of all, I'm not presenting anything from the kingdom of darkness. I was simply demonstrating the truth that the images you perceive as evidence for giants were never intended to be represented as genuine; but rather originated as digital art projects in a contest. But if you choose to believe the images depict real giants, that's your prerogative. However, if they were genuine, I assure you, they would not be found only on the internet, but would be world news.

      My evidence is Genesis 6 and the Hebrew words for sons of God, Jude 6 & 7, 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Peter 2:4-5, 1 Enoch chapters 14 & 15, the book of Jubilees and the book of Jasher, plus the over whelming evidence of the Dead Sea Scrolls speaking so much on this subject. That is my evidence.
      Son of God or sons of God are always speaking of beings created by God. Adam was a son of God and all of his children were sons of Adam born in his own likeness and after Adam own image Genesis 5:3, sons of Adam is correct not sons of God. Adam created these sons not God. Sons of God in scriptures in the plural in Hebrew always referrs to angels. This is not a matter of interpretation but a matter of whether you believe the word of God or not.
      Adam - son of God............created by God from the dirt, Perfect
      Angels - sons of God.........created by God, Perfect
      Jesus - Son of God, Perfect,.........God created a seed in the womb of Mary not a seed created by Adam. Because Adam's seed always produces the Sin Nature.

      Sons created by Adam are not sons of God but sons of Adam and all receive the sin nature from Adam and most of them are darkened in their understanding, excluded from the Zoe life of God as found in Ephesians 4:8. You found the time to write the article which shows you are darkened in your understanding. Maybe you should stick to spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its simply ways and not write on the Giants of Genesis 6. I don't mean to offend you but this article you wrote is a serious challenge against the word of God. The dead sea scrolls is a 1000 year older documents of the word of God and closer to Jesus time that He was on the earth. This is a link that may help, look closely at page 12-14 and how many copies they have found of first Enoch and the book of Jubilees.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_scrolls
      My article represents one possible interpretation of the passage in question, not a denial of some clear, God-breathed truth from Scripture. If you had bothered to read the comments that followed the article, you would see that I had a very pleasant exchange with brethren who see it as you do. And while we disagreed as to the interpretation of the passage, we enjoyed fellowship and a good exchange of ideas as brothers in the Lord--rather than accusing each other of denying the Word of God, as you have chosen to do. I understand zeal for the truth of the Bible, but you are as emotional about the sons of God matter as if one's relationship with God were contingent on how it is interpreted. That, I don't understand.

      2. By what right do you claim to be a son of God, were you created. You are a son of Adam and all the people on the earth are sons of Adam unless you can find any that were created perfect directly by God without a sin nature. A direct creation by God are sons of God and they are always created perfect. Angels were not born but directly created.
      The right I claim to be called a son of God comes from Scripture:

      3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
      2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1John 3:1-2)

      12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
      13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12-13)

      14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
      15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
      (Rom 8:14-15)

      19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
      20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
      21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
      (Rom 8:19-21)

      13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
      14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
      15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; (Phil 2:13-15)
    1. zoe4me's Avatar
      zoe4me -
      I have no doubt that you are a son of God. Great explanation of the reason you believe. I questioned it because of this other stuff you have written.

      The first comment about photo contest is a dumb answer. There is an effort by non-believers and evolutionist to block out all fossil evidence that disprove their stupid God hating theory. All of the fossils of these strange skulls is not a contest except in your mind. Are you affraid to view these skulls, they are all over South America? They control most media, maybe not Fox News. All the photo links which I sent you, you must not have viewed or the enemy has blinded your mind to the truth about this subject.
      Yes this is important because that is what caused the flood and the spirits of the giants are still with us today in the form of demonic beings without bodies. They blind people and cause sickness and get in human bodies.
    1. teddyv's Avatar
      teddyv -
      You have a unrealistic view of science and scientists if you believe there is some secret cabal out there suppressing evidence. You simply cannot control people or evidence to the extent you are suggesting.
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