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    CFJ

    Voorkennis, hoe werk dit?

    Thread Starter: CFJ

    In die Bybel kom hierdie term, 'voorkennis', net twee keer voor. In beide gevalle het God die Vader presies geweet in Sy voorkennis, wie dit was. In Handelinge het Hy baie spesifiek na Jesus verwys en in Petrus het Hy van Petrus self gepraat. ...

    Last Post By: Philip dT Today, 06:55 AM Go to last post
    ArchAngel00

    sex outside of marriage...

    Thread Starter: ArchAngel00

    why do people say sexy time outside of marriage is a no no??? where in the bible does it say no sex before marriage?

    Last Post By: Karaite Today, 06:53 AM Go to last post
    Matthew_M

    Judas Iscariot, Doing Gods will?

    Thread Starter: Matthew_M

    I am sure this thought has crossesd many of minds but wanted to throw it out there and see what kind of thoughts it provokes. I have been reading and debating with myself about predestination and free will. So far for every plus I can see on one...

    Last Post By: Kalahari Today, 06:49 AM Go to last post
    Brother Mark

    millennialism - pre, ah, post and what else?

    Thread Starter: Brother Mark

    Can someone help me understand the difference between pre and ah and post millennialism? Also, is there a 4th or 5th view? Finally, the big question... why is understanding the right view important in this case? Thanks, Mark

    Last Post By: Walls Today, 06:08 AM Go to last post
    Protective Angel

    Can the old wild west co-exist with the Bible?

    Thread Starter: Protective Angel

    I seen this article and it has me thinking. Do guns everywhere really make a safer world? Will a person not shoot me, just because my gun sits in my holster? What happens if I really have to shoot someone? What then? What's the Bibles take on...

    Last Post By: dan Today, 06:01 AM Go to last post
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    slightlypuzzled

    Monotheistic Dances part 1

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    Yesterday 04:45 PM
    Amencorner

    Whats that ....

    Wrath at our gaff. Spirits come in to our literal house via visitors or people who live in our gaff … This requires a close walk with Jesus to sort it out … Fear anger doubt a few of the things...

    Apr 15th 2014 08:10 PM
    Amencorner

    Withering.

    Withering. We say such horrible things one to another … Is it our old nature or does someone else have our tongue … Today I heard something that chilled me to the bone … For a while the words...

    Apr 15th 2014 05:44 AM
    Amencorner

    Furthermore ....

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    Amencorner

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    Television. The television has gone vile … And we know why but we must have hope … Not is all vile .. the trouble is .. but then again when Jesus is about there is hope. listening to 1...

    Apr 12th 2014 09:16 PM
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  • Was Solomon right, that there is nothing new under the sun?

    King Solomon--arguably the wisest man who ever lived (outside of Jesus), made many profound observations about God, man, the world, and life in general. One of his more well-known statements includes these words:
    History merely repeats itself. It has all been done before. Nothing under the sun is truly new. Sometimes people say, “Here is something new!” But actually it is old; nothing is ever truly new. We don’t remember what happened in the past, and in future generations, no one will remember what we are doing now." (Ecclesiastes 1:3-8 NLT)

    In the modern era in which we live, we are surrounded by technological marvels that once seemed impossible. A mere four or five generations ago, the notion of men walking on the moon; the ability to witness that event on a box in one's living room; traveling around the world in a matter of hours; or two people on different continents chatting face-to-face, would have seemed nothing short of sorcery. So then, with all the new technology that surrounds us, it would seem that Solomon was wrong. Or....was he?

    Consider this fundamental but rarely pondered truth: every object ever made by man, from Adam's day down to ours, was formed from materials taken from the earth--materials which have been here all along. Whether the products are made from wood, metal, plastic, paper or a synthetic material, everything made by man came from something made by God. Your house, your car, clothes, watch, money, computer...everything was made from materials that were here long before man was even created.

    Let's take that a step further. The progression of inventions such tanks, machine guns, rockets and nuclear-tipped missiles also come from materials mined from the earth. So then, in a very real sense, the creation of these modern weapons--along with every other example of technology, could have been produced thousands of years ago. The only thing missing then, that we have now, is the knowledge to create them. Since the materials have always been available, today's technology could have existed in the first few centuries of man, had he only known how to design and manufacture them. We know that the early descendants of Adam had already pioneered the art of forging of brass and iron, and the making of tools, well before the time of the Flood (Gen 4:22). So, what prevented technology from rapidly progressing beyond that point thousands of years ago?

    We read in Genesis 10 of the ill-fated tower of Babel, whose construction was exploited by the Devil to unite and galvanize the early descendants of Noah and his sons around a common cause; a joint project designed to be a proud symbol of their unity and solidarity—a unity of men who opposed to the rule of God over them. Knowing the evil heart of man, and where this unity of secular humanism would lead, God supernaturally divided the single language shared by the people into several languages, stopping the project dead in its tracks by making cooperation of its construction impossible. Denied the means of social interaction, the people grouped together according to their respective languages, and gradually migrated eastward from the region of Babel, eventually settling in the lands that would come to be named for their various tribal leaders--as laid out in Genesis 11.

    But, let's suppose that God had not intervened. How soon might man's unity and collaborative efforts have facilitated the development of modern technology? How soon would man have pooled his knowledge to produce the stunning, world-changing inventions he is capable of--giving no thought as to whether he should? How long ago might the modern, potential dangers of technology such as nuclear warfare, have been unleashed upon the world? How long after the repopulation of the earth after the Flood, might it have again been destroyed by a man made nuclear holocaust--the potential for which scientists even today constantly monitor by means of the "doomsday clock?"

    Ernest Rutherford (1871-1937), is considered the father of nuclear physics. Building on earlier theories about the structure of the atom, he hypothesized a workable atomic model, and in 1908, successfully split an atom in his "gold foil experiment," which became the key that unlocked the door to nuclear fusion. Only about 50 years later—mostly because of Einstein's genius and the collaboration of a diverse array of scientists, the intellectual brilliance of man betrayed the innate savagery inherent in his fallen human nature, when it unleashed upon the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the horrors of the first Weapons of mass destruction. The era of nuclear destruction went from imagination to horrific reality in just half a century. We can see in this, what the Lord meant when He said of the people at Babel:
    The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them." (Gen 11:6 NIV)

    What makes modern science and technology possible? Simply put, we are at our current level of technology only because scientists from many nations were able to pool their knowledge; to blend their personal insights, concepts and theories into the soup of modern, global, scientific knowledge. Technology has been built, layer upon layer, over the course of several generations, by many nationalities united in a common purpose. And only one thing makes that possible: Communication. That’s why the Lord put a stop to the unity mankind had abused. Had He not done so, the self-destructive bent of mankind may well have destroyed the earth thousands of years before the path had been prepared for His Messiah’s advent.

    Today, the language barrier God constructed in the days of Nimrod to forestall the progression of technology no longer exists, and there is now no spoken language that cannot be interpreted. The barrier no longer exists, and the technology does exist only because God chosen it to be so. The same materials necessary to make jet fighters and laser-guided, nuclear-tipped missiles were here thousands of ago, when men waged war with swords and battleaxes.

    The difference is, now man has the knowledge necessary to procure and manipulate those raw materials. And, as we've seen over the last century, knowledge and technology unchecked can snowball with unimaginable speed when not stayed by the hand of God. There have been more technological advances in the last 100 years than in the previous 5000 years combined. We are living in the era of the fulfillment of the final prophecy which the angel Gabriel described to Daniel:
    Men shall go to and fro in the earth, and knowledge shall be increased. (Dan 12:4)

    Today, many nations possess nuclear warheads; and we live in an era in which cities can be decimated in a matter of minutes—all at the push of a few buttons. World War III will not be fought with conventional weapon like the first two, but could literally wreak global destruction upon the earth capable of transforming it into a primitive wasteland. Is it any wonder the Lord removed man's ability to exploit his unity at Babel, before he reached the point where he could achieve anything his depraved mind could conceive? It is even possible that Jesus was speaking of His return cutting short such nuclear destruction by the intervention of His glorious return at the battle of Armageddon:

    In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God's chosen ones. (Matt 24:22)

    So then, we have now come full circle: mankind is once again seeking unity apart from God, as globalists, using economic and political manipulation, draw the nations of the world into a global alliance diametrically opposed to the will of God. Today it is not a brick and mortar tower that galvanizes the people, but global concerns: Global Warming fear-mongering, a planned wealth redistribution via Cap & Trade, and ever-increasing yet unstable economic interdependence are the new tower of babel, drawing the nations of the world together toward a utopian, one world government--heralded by its architects as the dawn of a new age of peace and enlightenment via human government--if only the yoke of God can be cast off, together with the intolerance of Christianity which divides mankind, so that the power and wisdom of mankind united, can be allowed to shine forth, and be the dawning of that grand, perceived era.

    And soon, a modern-day Nimrod, will rise to prominence, taking his seat upon the throne of world power that is being built by the globalists today--a man who will dominate the world for an appointed season, imbued with the throne, power and authority of Satan to persecute the people of God, while leading the Christ-rejecting people of the world blindly down the path of eternal destruction. And this time, God will allow it to happen...because it will be the right time.

    Nothing will ever happen until God is ready for it to happen. Likewise, when His is ready for something to happen, nothing can stop it. The stage is set, the actors are taking their places, and the final act is about to begin. Soon, the Devil's proxy ruler will make his grand entrance--shortly before God brings to a close, the epic drama of mankind's redemption, and will bring down the curtain on Satan, his ill-fated kingdom, and those he has blinded to the truth of the Gospel.

    So yes, Solomon was right. There is nothing new under the sun. Modern, man-made things are simply the manipulation of very old materials. Yes, DNA can be recombined, new chemicals such as pharmaceutical products can be produced by combining specific atoms; and highly sophisticated electronic products can be manufactured. Yet anything man can create or bring about is "new" only in the sense of a new sculpture being carved out of an ancient rock.
    Comments 22 Comments
    1. Faithful One's Avatar
      Faithful One -
      Good discussion. Sojo. Today the "barrier" you refer to is not so much language but "attitude".

      In that regard, Rutherford, amazingly, did make a comment that turned out to be one of my favorite "that's impossibile" attitudes, namely:
      "Anyone who expects a source of power from the transformation of the atom is talking moonshine". - Ernest Rutherford

      Sort of like the garbage man telling you he wouldn't touch that dirty stuff if it really had germs on it.

      eh; probably for the better; Had he recognized the power the atom could unleash we may have had to contend with the atom bomb back in the First World War.,... and Europe might not exist today.

      ..I agree the devil wants to remove all political or social boundaries that may hinder HIS work....

      It should be realized that God beat the devil to the punch by re-unifying all nations into one provided they come into Christ.... It is done in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is what Acts 2:1 was all about when the Day of Pentecost came and they all heard each other speaking in thier "own" language....Now "there is neither Jew, nor Greek...nor bond or free, but all are made one in Christ".

      The devil, however, is working hard at removing the boundaries on the unsaved WITHOUT the work of Holy Spirit. He wants the world unified in rebellion against God... Its a counterfeit of God's unification through the Spirit....Apparently he realizes all too well....
      .... there is nothing new under the sun.

      Faithful
    1. Sojourner55's Avatar
      Sojourner55 -
      Hi Faithful,
      Glad you dropped by the old comment zone. I was really tired of hearing nothing but those annoying crickets!
      Yeah, even the most brilliant of scientists are short-sighted about "what's impossible," when viewed from one era to the next. I just got to thinking one day that everything man has made, was made from something that has been here all along. And that was a real epiphany. If man had possessed the knowledge thousands of years ago to be able to manipulate the raw materials, today's technology could have existed in primitive times. But that's why God "nipped it in the bud" at Babel. Good to hear from you, my friend. God bless.
    1. RockyTop's Avatar
      RockyTop -
      Is there any question that man can achieve whatever his mind conceives given enough time? God created us in His image which includes creativity. Also,

      Genesis 11:6 "The LORD said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them."

      That's a pretty amazing statement from God which sheds light on why God intervened with the tower of Babel.
    1. Sojourner55's Avatar
      Sojourner55 -
      Quote Originally Posted by RockyTop View Post
      Is there any question that man can achieve whatever his mind conceives given enough time? God created us in His image which includes creativity. Also,

      Genesis 11:6 "The LORD said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them."

      That's a pretty amazing statement from God which sheds light on why God intervened with the tower of Babel.
      Amen, RockyTop. God knew where that unity would lead, and it was nowhere near the time to let it develop. But here we are today: sovereign nations being intentionally sabotaged economically in order to create interdependence on a centralized, global government system. And Instead of a tower, the common goal is "social justice" and nations of the world uniting in an effort to save the world from the imminent horrors of Global Warming, er, I mean Global Change. And just as God said, the collaborative efforts of godless men has taken us into dangerous times, with potential man-made disasters like impending nuclear devastation, cloning, and tampering with deadly viruses. I truly believe we are in the last days, in the era Gabriel spoke of as the time of the fulfillment of the final prophecies:

      But you, Daniel, keep this prophecy a secret; seal up the book until the time of the end, when many will rush here and there, and knowledge will increase.” (Dan 12:40)
    1. Ascender's Avatar
      Ascender -
      ...there is nothing new under the sun...we are only re-discovering what Adam and Eve and others already knew and they were far in advance of us on several levels...if only the library of Alexandria had not been destroyed...
    1. IMINXTC's Avatar
      IMINXTC -
      I'm intrigued by the fact that the buillders of Cheop's pyramid in Egypt, for example, had a working and precise knowledge of not only advanced mathmatical formulas including pi and the royal cubit based upon the radius of the Earth, but true north, the distance to the sun, and the exact procession of the equinoxes thousands of years into the future, long before the land-sat satelite system et al, came to enlighten us.
    1. Sojourner55's Avatar
      Sojourner55 -
      Quote Originally Posted by IMINXTC View Post
      I'm intrigued by the fact that the buillders of Cheop's pyramid in Egypt, for example, had a working and precise knowledge of not only advanced mathmatical formulas including pi and the royal cubit based upon the radius of the Earth, but true north, the distance to the sun, and the exact procession of the equinoxes thousands of years into the future, long before the land-sat satelite system et al, came to enlighten us.
      Remember that Egypt was the first empire following the dispersion of the people after the confusion of languages. Those with the remarkable skills evidenced in the pyramids and the Sphinx, would have lived within a few generations of the tower of babel project. Recall that even before the Flood, Cain's descendants had already pioneered the forging of tools. We don't know what level of scientific knowledge was attained by those who helped build the tower, but obviously, the combined knowledge of all mankind could have grown exponentially in a short time, had God not intervened. The wars between the Hebrews and Canaanites could conceivably have been fought with modern-day weapons, and that to me, is intriguing.
    1. EbonyRaptor's Avatar
      EbonyRaptor -
      Hi Sojourner. Very intriguing interpretation. My understanding of the famous Solomon quote was that it was meant to address the full range of human experience, or more precisely that all human benevolence and depravity have already been seen. I don't disagree with your thinking and in fact think it adds to the texture and depth of Solomon's wisdom, i.e. God's teaching. And isn't that always one of the coolest things during our sojourn - to uncover another pearl of wisdom in an already (thought to be) known passage.

      I took a Bible study many years ago that spent some time on the Tower of Babel and I found it to be one of the most instructive lessons in the Bible. I'll have to try to find it a read through it again. Like so many of the lessons that God teaches through His Word, often there are multiple levels. The surface understanding of the story and the allegorical lesson(s) "hidden" inside. The Tower of Babel is just such a lesson.
    1. Sojourner55's Avatar
      Sojourner55 -
      Quote Originally Posted by EbonyRaptor View Post
      Hi Sojourner. Very intriguing interpretation. My understanding of the famous Solomon quote was that it was meant to address the full range of human experience, or more precisely that all human benevolence and depravity have already been seen. I don't disagree with your thinking and in fact think it adds to the texture and depth of Solomon's wisdom, i.e. God's teaching. And isn't that always one of the coolest things during our sojourn - to uncover another pearl of wisdom in an already (thought to be) known passage.

      I took a Bible study many years ago that spent some time on the Tower of Babel and I found it to be one of the most instructive lessons in the Bible. I'll have to try to find it a read through it again. Like so many of the lessons that God teaches through His Word, often there are multiple levels. The surface understanding of the story and the allegorical lesson(s) "hidden" inside. The Tower of Babel is just such a lesson.
      Hi EbonyRaptor, and welcome!
      I agree completely. "Nothing new under the sun" takes in a lot of things, the physical being but one aspect/perspective. Solomon (or whoever recorded his words) conveys a sense of his being "jaded" by life, to some extent. The great wisdom, power and wealth that God had blessed him with seems to have given him a king's perspective of "what's the point of it all?" That life is a continuous cycle, in which one generation gives way to the next, which then is then repeated endlessly. I emphasized the physical because it is something tangible that everyone can relate to, regardless of their level of spirituality or Bible knowledge. And because it truly is a thought-provoking premise to know that God's intervention prevented man from moving faster in his scientific knowledge than He wanted him to. Also, as you point out, the whole tower of Babel debacle is one of many types and foreshadows in the Bible, from which the diligent seeker will inevitably be rewarded with great treasures. Thank you for your feedback and comments.
    1. Redeemed by Grace's Avatar
      Redeemed by Grace -
      Ecclesiastes 1:9 That which has been is that which will be,
      And that which has been done is that which will be done.
      So there is nothing new under the sun.


      Quote Originally Posted by EbonyRaptor View Post
      Hi Sojourner. Very intriguing interpretation. My understanding of the famous Solomon quote was that it was meant to address the full range of human experience, or more precisely that all human benevolence and depravity have already been seen.

      //
      This comment is the closest to what I see the understanding to mean. Comparing sorta himself to what God has created, Solomon's searching for satisfaction is empty compared to God. I don't see this applying to inventions per se, but to man's lack of satisfaction away from God.

      Thus 2:24, 25

      Ecclesiastes 2:20 Therefore I completely despaired of all the fruit of my labor for which I had labored under the sun.
      21 When there is a man who has labored with wisdom, knowledge and skill, then he gives his legacy to one who has not labored with them. This too is vanity and a great evil.
      22 For what does a man get in all his labor and in his striving with which he labors under the sun?
      23 Because all his days his task is painful and grievous; even at night his mind does not rest. This too is vanity.
      24 There is nothing better for a man than to eat and drink and tell himself that his labor is good. This also I have seen that it is from the hand of God.
      25 For who can eat and who can have enjoyment without Him?
      26 For to a person who is good in His sight He has given wisdom and knowledge and joy, while to the sinner He has given the task of gathering and collecting so that he may give to one who is good in God's sight. This too is vanity and striving after wind.
    1. Kaboose's Avatar
      Kaboose -
      Some I'd like to add is remember the angels (sons of God) who fell before the flood event and the nephilim. They were on earth and Angels would have had knowledge far beyond what mankind did and probably taught much of it to mankind causing them to sin with much of it I imagine. They are most likely who are responsible for the great structures we see today left after the flood, like the pyramids all over the world, great buildings with stones we couldn't even move today. We can only guess at the types of knowledge they had because of those fallen angels and nephilim. Probably much of the dark stuff we would call witchcraft, divination, etc is a big part of it. Even after the flood, remember Pharaohs two magicians who summoned snakes, was this a parlor trick? or did they have real knowledge and powers of demonic entities to do the tricks they did? God does warn us of messing with such powers for good reason of course.
    1. thomasmind's Avatar
      thomasmind -
      Brilliant article!

      The only thing that matters is our relationship with Christ. All of the technology and science in the end gives us only distractions (as much as I love science). In the end the only thing that maters is our creators happiness, so there is nothing new under the sun when it comes to what really matters.
    1. Sojourner55's Avatar
      Sojourner55 -
      Quote Originally Posted by thomasmind View Post
      Brilliant article!

      The only thing that matters is our relationship with Christ. All of the technology and science in the end gives us only distractions (as much as I love science). In the end the only thing that maters is our creators happiness, so there is nothing new under the sun when it comes to what really matters.
      Thank you thomasmind. Yes, technology can be a very good thing, or very bad--depending on how we use it. The harnessing of electronics can both help spread the Gospel from nation to nation, and send a nuclear-tipped missile from nation to nation. But in the near future, this planet will come under new management, and things will get back to the way God intended it. So, in this era of high-tech marvels and entertainment distractions, each person really needs to get his or her priorities in order.
    1. Eyelog's Avatar
      Eyelog -
      Quote Originally Posted by Sojourner55 View Post
      Remember that Egypt was the first empire following the dispersion of the people after the confusion of languages. Those with the remarkable skills evidenced in the pyramids and the Sphinx, would have lived within a few generations of the tower of babel project. Recall that even before the Flood, Cain's descendants had already pioneered the forging of tools. We don't know what level of scientific knowledge was attained by those who helped build the tower, but obviously, the combined knowledge of all mankind could have grown exponentially in a short time, had God not intervened. The wars between the Hebrews and Canaanites could conceivably have been fought with modern-day weapons, and that to me, is intriguing.

      Remember further, bros, that Einstein and the primary physicists who engineered the A Bomb in the 40s were ALL pre- and mid-war German dissidents. Indeed, the engineering belying making the ICBM's and Apollo rockets were almost entirely dependent on imported Nazi physicists who had developed the missles for Hitler.

      The importation of arcane knowledge to defy God and make war has been going on a very long time.

      Meanwhile, the humanists have always hated Christ, and they still see Him as their arch-nemesis. So long as He reigns in His true church, the evil one will be held back. When the One who holds him back is taken out of the way, ...

      ... Just "Imagine". ... "and no religion too...."

      Lenin/Lennon. Not much difference, really, except one's ideology being in charge resulted in millions of Jewish, Christian and other civilian deaths, and the other was gunned down in an alley after having a "Double Fantasy." But what spirit led them each?

      Great Article Soj. I appreciate the fact that you are a true Christian THINKER.

      God bless!
    1. Sojourner55's Avatar
      Sojourner55 -
      Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post
      Remember further, bros, that Einstein and the primary physicists who engineered the A Bomb in the 40s were ALL pre- and mid-war German dissidents. Indeed, the engineering belying making the ICBM's and Apollo rockets were almost entirely dependent on imported Nazi physicists who had developed the missiles for Hitler.



      The importation of arcane knowledge to defy God and make war has been going on a very long time.

      Meanwhile, the humanists have always hated Christ, and they still see Him as their arch-nemesis. So long as He reigns in His true church, the evil one will be held back. When the One who holds him back is taken out of the way, ...

      ... Just "Imagine". ... "and no religion too...."

      Lenin/Lennon. Not much difference, really, except one's ideology being in charge resulted in millions of Jewish, Christian and other civilian deaths, and the other was gunned down in an alley after having a "Double Fantasy." But what spirit led them each?

      Great Article Soj. I appreciate the fact that you are a true Christian THINKER.

      God bless!
      Well thank you for the kind words, brother. The premise of the article is truly a thought-provoking concept, isn't it? You really have to wonder just how much sooner modern technology might have appeared if God hadn't slowed it's progress until He was ready.
    1. Bamjoo's Avatar
      Bamjoo -
      Quote Originally Posted by thomasmind View Post
      Brilliant article!

      The only thing that matters is our relationship with Christ. All of the technology and science in the end gives us only distractions (as much as I love science). In the end the only thing that maters is our creators happiness, so there is nothing new under the sun when it comes to what really matters.
      Nicely Put Thomas!
    1. Xorder's Avatar
      Xorder -
      read Ecclesiastes thoroughly and keep it in your hearts and minds. unrighteousness neglect of the affirmed, afflicted, the sick and dying. Christians are guilty of this because Solomon also states idle hands are the devil handiwork, and who will save the earth not God, not Jesus, and it looks dismal, most people in church, are apathetic, and indifferent, self absorbed, selfish, mammon worshiping and seducing spirits, and feel good philosophy, prosperity philosophy is not from God, the only thing you should ever ask of God are these things, Knowledge, Wisdom, Understanding, and his mind and eyes. read 1 Timothy 4:1-2

      1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron

      This is you, taking on a form of Godliness devoid of His Power, and direction
    1. HoboTone's Avatar
      HoboTone -
      Shalom, really enjoyed this article! I just finished reading "The Harbinger" by Jonathan Cahn, and it had me thinking about the nature of Prophecy and fulfillment. "Those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it." I think George Santayana had it right with this quote. I wonder if I could assume that; "Those who don't remember prophecies are bound to refulfill them." There are lots of arguments around about exactly when and where certain prophecies were fulfilled. I believe this shows a similarity in the pattern of historical events, which leads to multiple candidates for prophetic fulfillment. I am not trying to state this as fact, just as food for thought. Cahn Argues that the prophecy of Isaiah 9:9-10 was fulfilled twice, the second time being fulfilled literally on 9/11. I know it seems like tinfoil hat conspiracy theory, but I was shocked by what I found when I researched it on my own. When I hear debates about the book of Revelation, I wonder if both sides are right. I wonder if John was referencing both the present and the future, as in history repeating itself. The antichrist idea seems to not point at a single individual, but rather to a repeating theme (1 John 2:18-22, 4:3, 2 John1:7) The book of Judges deals with a repeating theme; disobedience, judgement, repentance, deliverence. In fact, the Prophets follow the same template. I think the Word of God remains relevant because "There is nothing new under the sun" Thanks for the thought provoking piecel!
    1. Sojourner55's Avatar
      Sojourner55 -
      Hello HoboTone,

      Glad you enjoyed it. People differ widely in their eschatology, and invariably, most exchanges regarding prophetic timelines only serve to further beat a poor dead horse that is already a bloody mess. I agree that there are a number of prophecies for which there may indeed be a dual fulfillment, and so should keep an open mind. Jesus said we would not know the exact day or hour of His return. However, He states rather clearly, that certain end time events would indicate the nearness of His return, as surely as the budding of summer trees indicate the nearness of summer. We can hold to and discuss our perspective of things as the day approaches, but mostly, we need to do as Jesus instructed: "watch and pray."
    1. RonPrice's Avatar
      RonPrice -
      THE OLD TESTAMENT and ME

      The Hebrew Bible, called The Old Testament by Christians, is an extraordinarily difficult sequence of books.1 This difficulty, too easily underestimated, is greater now than it ever was, partly because no contemporary reader, however specialized, shares in the psychology of the original readers and writers of The Bible. The first millennium in which anyone read any of the words in any of the books from 1000 B.C. to the time of Christ or, perhaps more accurately, 600 B.C. to 400 A.D.2

      My first memories of The Old Testament come from Bible readings in grade six when I was 11 and my mother reading passages from little booklets from the Unity School of Christianity as early as the mid-1950s. Although some of the quotations had a broad ethical appeal to me even as a boy in my late childhood and early teens, I found the stories abstruse and distant: goats, sheep, tribes, and curious names like Balthazar & Nebuchadnezzar.

      They all occupied another universe far removed from my little town of 5000 in Ontario in that post-WW2 world of the 1950s. This distance existed then, as it does now, nearly 60 years later.

      My individual understanding of The Bible, my biblical interpretations, rely primarily at the age of nearly 70 on my experience of nearly 60 years of intimate association with the Baha’i Faith. My interpretations and those of the Baha’i teachings are provocative, if nothing else. But I have always found there to be a vast distance from the psychic universe of the biblical writers beginning as early as, say, 900 B.C.2 and the contemporary society that is my world. I know I have lots of company; indeed I rarely meet anyone who actually reads The Old Testament any more.

      However abstruse the language of biblical prophecy and eschatology, the prophets of The Old Testament, I believe, were given a foreknowledge of the events of our times in their visions, visions which I’m sure they hardly understood themselves. Still, there lies a sure presentation of the times we are living-through, as long as one does not take those prophecies literally.

      Yahweh's choice of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants as part of the Chosen People story was a permanent decision, intended to prevail into a time without boundaries, into our time.-Ron Price with thanks to 1Harold Bloom, “Prose and Poetry,” in The New York Times, 17 October, 1982: a review of Dan Jacobson’s THE STORY OF THE STORIES: The Chosen People and Its God, and 2the final editor, or redactor, after the return from the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century BC, put all the books of The Old Testament into something like their present form.3

      When this review appeared in1
      The New York Times I had just
      arrived in Australia’s Northern
      Territory & the heat of summer
      was just beginning to make me
      run for cover to air-conditioning
      in my office, home and the cool
      air of the car. The Old Testament
      was on my universe’s periphery.

      There it had always been in heat and
      cold since those first stories when I
      was in grade six in that little town in
      Ontario’s Golden Horseshoe where
      everyone I knew was Catholic or Jew
      or Protestant, or nothing; yes, mostly
      nothing and there they have remained
      with that Old Testament far removed
      from everyone’s everyday life. Still…

      I have time now to try to get into it in
      this the evening of my life; however
      complex and abstruse it may be, I want
      to make-up for the decades when it had
      to remain far out on my life’s periphery.

      1 Harold Bloom, “Prose and Poetry,” in The New York Times, 17 October, 1982: a review of Dan Jacobson’s THE STORY OF THE STORIES: The Chosen People and Its God.
      3 See Frank Kermode, “God Speaks Through His Women,” in The New York Times, 23 September 1990: a review of Harold Bloom’s The Book of J.

      Ron Price
      5 July 2012
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