As a Little Child

Hi Sojourner55,

Hope all is well. Knowing you over the years, I think I know what you are striving to show here, and in that would agree with the spirit of the intent. However, I would slightly challenge you to say that children are not born innocent. Unknowing, untaught/learned, would be better, but innocent equates to not guilty, and all men are guilty before God without Christ, even babes.

Now the argument could then follow, 'but what about those babes who died young?' {for which is not what your thread is about but would be common to my reply that children are not born innocent} To that - I'd trust God to declare for His glory who is covered by the blood and who is not. But again, to the spirit of what you want to convey, I'd agree.


Blessings

RbG

Hi Redeemed. Hope all is well with you as well. Obviously, a young child who becomes an adult is going to have to meet the terms of salvation. But I believe it's correct to say such a child innocent of any wrong-doing is "innocent" before God--or else he or she would not be saved if he or she dies before the age of accountability. Out of curiosity, what do you think Jesus meant when He said we must become like a little child in order to to enter the kingdom?

Hi SJ,

Humbly, I see you implying innocence to fit as a meaning towards children, when it's really behavior not innocence... A child is dependent on his father and mother, for a child still needs to be taught right from wrong, for wrong he naturally knows..... he is born a sinner... So you may see a child as being innocence, but what you are describing using scripture is his behavior.

And they were bringing children to Him so that He might lay hands on them; and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it at all." (Mark 10:13-15)

Hope all is well,

RbG

Certainly every single person is born into Satan's kingdom, and must be born spiritually in order to leave it and enter God's kingdom. Yet, as I said, an infant or child can hardly be accountable for sin until they develop the capacity for the very concept of sin.

As you noted, it is the lesson of the article and its spiritual application that matters. Point is, Jesus used the qualities and attributes as representative of those who will enter the kingdom. I think the point of contention here is actually more a matter of semantics rather than theology, so we'll just drop the matter, and let the spirit of the article stand or fall on its own merits.

Howdy Sj,

Not to get lost though, is that a child, no matter how old, as with growing into an adult, is not born in innocence, but born in sin. The purpose of Jesus' focus on children is dependance. A child is dependent on their parents as we are dependent on Christ. A child, as hard as it is to say as a mother holds a sweet babe in her arms, is just as guilty of sin as an adult.

Again just to clarify that innocence is not what Jesus was saying that a child is.

Why are you unable this drop this bone of contention and focus on the lesson itself? You're taking my statement that a person is innocent of wrong-doing until they learn the difference between right and wrong, and making it seem as if I'm saying we are not born in sin. Once again, absent your added stipulation of a child growing into an adult, if an infant or toddler dies, they are obviously deemed not guilty of sin as far as God is concerned. Otherwise, they would go straight to hell when they die. I really don't believe infants and toddlers are suffering in hell because they were born in a lost condition.

I fully understand that every person is born in a lost state because of Adam's sin. I'm not saying otherwise. But I'm not sure you understand that God will not judge a child for sin until they are at least old enough to understand what sin is. There are only two reasons why that would be the case:

1. They are not condemned for their unsaved condition until they are able understand sin and salvation. 2. God provides some legal loophole that allows them immunity from prosecution until they're older. I choose to believe the former.

Please don't mar a good Bible lesson by contending over a theological difference that does not exist. By "innocence," I refer to the absence of purposeful, wrongful actions, and the absence of culpability for sin--not the absence of sin itself.

Hi Sj,

Sorry that you feel it's a bone of contention, but that's not the intent at all. Jesus does not say a child is innocent, you do. Jesus does say that a christian needs to be as a child and that is dependent....

A child will learn from those he is dependent on. By the time one is an adult, how many who are old desire to be dependent and learn? To say a child is innocent has nothing to do with the fact of scripture, for all men are conceived in iniquity. And to say that God saves all children if they die, is a noble thought, but lacks scriptural support. You can only hope, as do I that that is the case, but you can't blanket state that God saves all children who died, for all children do not start out saved and then lose it some time unknown, and then become saved again when they are older.

The more you write, the more error I am seeing in what you're writing, You are declaring that an infant or toddler dying - is automatically saved? Where in scripture is this stated? Again, it's an admirable hope, but you can't teach that it's a blanket truth. For what age does this toddler cross over and become "non-Innocence?"

The only way one is non-innocent is through the blood of Jesus. Thus this passage is not on the innocence of a child, but of the humbleness of being dependent and the need to the training of a child, for how many adults can say that they are humble.... dependent upon God.... and teachable of the ways of God?

That's all it is my brother, innocence is a noble thought, but that is not what Jesus is saying... Being dependent, trusting God, wanting God, knowing God, that is what Jesus is driving towards.

For His Glory,

RbG

I'm sorry you think that babies may be screaming in hell. I don't. I cannot provide Scripture that directly supports my position, but then, neither can you. As such, you really have no basis for declaring me guilty of "errors."

We'll have to believe what we believe for now, and ask the Lord the truth of the matter one day. In the meantime, I choose to cling to my belief that God does not condemn to hell, a child who is not able to understand that he or she needs a Savior. You are certainly free to hold a contrary opinion.

I'm also sorry this is all you got out of the article.

This is a very insightful article. I often reflect on the idea of being a "son of man", as is written about in the book Job. While the term "son of man" is often used to refer to the savior, it is also a way for us to understand what it means to be born again. Those who are born again are children, born from their own womb, impregnated with the holy spirit. This is my conceptualization, but I believe this is reasonably universal.

Innocent, Faithful, Persistent. Very keen observations. I personally think of my relationship to my fiance as a son-mother relationship, at least relative to other relationships. Babies cling to their mothers and have one mother alone. This is how we should be as Christians, not engaging in meaningless relationships with women that we discard later on, but clinging to the one woman who will forever be our wife in the same way our mother will forever be our mother.

There's much to be said on the subject of the "sons of men". It's a spot on metaphor for the manners of the faithful.

Originally Posted by Sojourner55

I'm sorry you think that babies may be screaming in hell. I don't. I cannot provide Scripture that directly supports my position, but then, neither can you. As such, you really have no basis for declaring me guilty of "errors."

We'll have to believe what we believe for now, and ask the Lord the truth of the matter one day. In the meantime, I choose to cling to my belief that God does not condemn to hell, a child who is not able to understand that he or she needs a Savior. You are certainly free to hold a contrary opinion.

I'm also sorry this is all you got out of the article.

Brother... scriptures do not hold multiple interpretations, for if so then the hearer supplies the understanding. When you or I write a paper as you have done here, you do so for proclamation, but also for examination. If what we write is congruent to the word, then there comes an amen. If there is a doubt, then comes a challenge. Thus a challenge of the teaching that children are born innocent. The bible declares that all men are sinners and all are born in iniquity.

As the OP's author, you are the one who is putting out a position, thus you are the one that if a doubt comes, is to show why from a scriptural basis why you say it is such. In a term, when questioned, you need to defend your position. Show why, not look at is as personal attack.

Nowhere within your post does Jesus declare that children are innocent.... that is your reading into the text. Thus instead of looking at my replies as negative, look at my replies as constructive. Thus you can either take the feedback as an opportunity to show why through scriptures, or come to an understanding that yepper, it's not there.

As far as babes who die being in hell, the word is pretty silent on that... so for me, I don't teach one way or the other. I do however teach to trust that God knows all things and is just.... so I'm pleased to rest in His way.

I hope you understand my heart towards you is not evil, but love.

For His glory,

RbG

Where in the scripture does it say children have unwaivering faith? Where in the scripture does it say they are persistent? Should we discount the whole article because citation can't be made for every point the article makes? Sojourner is speaking from his own experience.

How about this: Children are innocenter. They're not perfectly pure because of original sin, but they're certainly more innocent than most adults. The article is expressing an idea about being innocent before God, and perhaps its better to take the words for what they are instead of getting wrapped up in semantics.

Originally Posted by esper88

The article is expressing an idea about being innocent before God, and perhaps its better to take the words for what they are instead of getting wrapped up in semantics.

Amen!! !

Redeemed,
I fully understand the point you're trying to make. But I'm not certain you realize that this exchange is becoming far too protracted for so small a point. You have ignored both the clarified, non-salvific context in which I use the word "innocent, and my request that we simply "agree to disagree." Consider this my final reply on this matter.

First of all, the article seeks only to highlight child-like characteristics lacking in adults that we would deem proper for citizens of the kingdom of God--and so are reasonably inferred in the context of Jesus' statement. The article was not intended to be some theological treatise to be debated on the basis of doctrinal fidelity. I believe most people would agree that infants and small children are unaware of both the concept of sin, and their need for a Savior. As such, I don't believe God will condemn to eternal judgment, those not yet old enough to understand those concepts. You are free to believe otherwise. If you have Scriptural evidence that refutes my position, present it. Otherwise, please stop implying that I am circumventing Scripture and Biblical truths to make a point.

Jesus implied that the nature and qualities children are representative of those who enter the kingdom, and that "unless we receive the kingdom as a little child, we shall in no wise enter in." Those statements are wide open for us to ponder and delve into--and the traits I expounded on are certainly ones possessed by children that God would expect from His children. Yes, I am extrapolating from the text, but I feel it's very sound exytapolation.

Being so meticulous in details yourself, I'm you can show me where in the text you see Jesus implying that He was referring specifically to the quality of "dependence," as you opine. Can you find that in the text--or are you inferring it? Are you engaging in a little private interpretation? If so, you are guilty of taking the same liberties you accuse me of. I firmly believe the three child-like characteristics I have deduced from Jesus' statement are at least as valid and pertinent as the "dependence" you infer.

With that, I feel I've already expended far more time and energy than this explanation deserves. I only hope no one else finds this point to be the distracting, stumbling block it has become for you. God bless.

Originally Posted by esper88

Where in the scripture does it say children have unwaivering faith? Where in the scripture does it say they are persistent? Should we discount the whole article because citation can't be made for every point the article makes? Sojourner is speaking from his own experience.

How about this: Children are innocenter. They're not perfectly pure because of original sin, but they're certainly more innocent than most adults. The article is expressing an idea about being innocent before God, and perhaps its better to take the words for what they are instead of getting wrapped up in semantics.

Hello esper88,

Glad to see that I'm not the only one who feels Redeemed by Grace is caught up in semantics. I was beginning to wonder. Thank you, and I'm pleased that you recognized the validity of the points I made about the child-like qualities.

Also, I agree with you about the "son of man" concept. I believe when Jesus used it of Himself, we see instances of Him directly speaking as God, of the temple in which He resided. As when when He stated that He Himself would raise that body up after three days (John 2:19); likewise, the righteous dead at the last day (John 6:39-54).

Indeed, aside from being God our Savior manifest in the flesh, Jesus is the "prototype" for the children of God: human being indwelt, led by, and empowered by the Spirit of God within. And I believe the same child-like qualities Jesus alluded to are representative of those that God both desires and requires in His children.

Originally Posted by Sojourner55

And they were bringing children to Him so that He might lay hands on them; and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it at all." (Mark 10:13-15)

What did Jesus mean by this? What are the qualities and attributes children possess that God expects and requires in His people? There are a number of them, but three in particular seem to stand out more prominently.

I. Innocence.
…A child must learn things like hate, deceit, greed and covetousness. We are not born that way. So, how does a believer regain that original innocence?

I’ve been soft in my approach, hoping reasoning to our common position in Christ, but now need to call a more direct statement.

You are wrong here. All men are born sinners. No one has to be taught to be sinful. Every babe born, as mild and meek to us as they seem, are babes born in sin and natural to sin. They are selfish by nature.

Look above at the scriptures you quote SJ. Nowhere does Jesus declare that children are innocent. You are applying that understanding based not on the text, but on your life observations and desires.

One needs to be true to the text. We need to be as children... that is - we need to be dependent upon God. That we desire to learn, to be near, to be provided for, and be taught by God. This has nothing to do with a child being innocent. That would be self-righteousness.

I understand your desire to build a case that man has lost his innocence thus to be like a child, but that is not the way of salvation. The text is about child like dependance. Your post declares all men are born innocent [IE not guilty, sinless], as I've re-quoted above.

And again, you still miss my heart of instruction, but that's OK.

What does a child possess that experienced adults have abandoned?

Speaking from personal experience, I can recall too many times when I have given into temptations and excused away the guilty conscience that a child innocently experiences when they do something wrong. I accomplished this feat by applying the excuses my internal voice always readily provided to me, as to why it was okay to do this, or that, even though I knew from my conscience that I shouldn't have done, but at some point I was no longer bothered with having to excuse away the guilt after repeating the sin several times. Sound familiar...?

I even remember the first time I did this. I was tempted to utter a cuss word at the tender age of 10 or 11 (I lived a sheltered life) and I vividly recall the internal excuses I received. I had always thought I would be struck by lightning or something even worse if I uttered an expletive deletive, but my trusty internal voice provided me with the all the encouragement I needed to go ahead and do it, it assured me that I would not be struck by lightning! Sounds almost "Garden of Edenish", huh? Well, that was all the encouragement I needed, and I went ahead. After several more repetitions I was no longer bothered with thoughts of retribution or damnation for my sin.
I'll bet if you think back hard enough, you can recall the first time you had an experience like this with temptation, and your ultimately giving into the actual sin, whatever it was, huh?

An innocent child has not experienced this...yet, but at some point in all our lives we give into that first temptation and we apply that internal excuse so that we can avoid that pesky guilty conscience. At that point the statement that Jesus made no longer applies to us...

The good news is that you can return to that childlike state as a born again Christian. All you have to do is accept the Holy Spirit into your heart, stop listening to that old internal voice at times of temptation (repent), and follow your conscience instead as you once did as a child, which I have come to believe is the Holy Spirit's way of communicating His will to us where the avoidance of sin is concerned.

Hope this helps...

God Bless and keep you...
Mike

Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace

Howdy Sj,

Not to get lost though, is that a child, no matter how old, as with growing into an adult, is not born in innocence, but born in sin. The purpose of Jesus' focus on children is dependance. A child is dependent on their parents as we are dependent on Christ. A child, as hard as it is to say as a mother holds a sweet babe in her arms, is just as guilty of sin as an adult.

Again just to clarify that innocence is not what Jesus was saying that a child is.

Redeemed,
I couldn't disagree more with your thinking here.

Jesus included salvation for innocent children when he said, ""Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it at all." (Mark 10:13-15)"

The point here is that once we as adults willingly excuse away our sins, we no longer serve God alone as do innocent children, but we are then servants of sin and the Bible is clear when it says;

Matthew 6:24 "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

Once we become servants of sin, we are required to repent and through a sincere rebirth in the Holy Spirit, we can return to our childlike nature, as Jesus was discussing, and once again serve God alone, and can once again follow the Holy Spirits guidance through our conscience, wherever it leads us. That is where trust and faith comes in...

Salvation is no longer a difficult insurmountable proposition; Jesus ushered in the second covenant where the Holy Spirit, through the auspices of our clear conscience, will guide us through the "valley of the shadow of death", if we will just follow Him. Will we stumble and fall occasionally? Of course, but what we will no longer do is hide behind our internal excuses where giving in to temptation is concerned and we will instead, follow our conscience and occasionally receive God's righteous chastisement when we slip up, just like innocent children do.

God Bless and keep...

Mike

Originally Posted by kearth2001

Redeemed,
I couldn't disagree more with your thinking here.

Jesus included salvation for innocent children when he said, ""Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it at all." (Mark 10:13-15)"

The point here is that once we as adults willingly excuse away our sins, we no longer serve God alone as do innocent children, but we are then servants of sin and the Bible is clear when it says;

Matthew 6:24 "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

Once we become servants of sin, we are required to repent and through a sincere rebirth in the Holy Spirit, we can return to our childlike nature, as Jesus was discussing, and once again serve God alone, and can once again follow the Holy Spirits guidance through our conscience, wherever it leads us. That is where trust and faith comes in...

Salvation is no longer a difficult insurmountable proposition; Jesus ushered in the second covenant where the Holy Spirit, through the auspices of our clear conscience, will guide us through the "valley of the shadow of death", if we will just follow Him. Will we stumble and fall occasionally? Of course, but what we will no longer do is hide behind our internal excuses where giving in to temptation is concerned and we will instead, follow our conscience and occasionally receive God's righteous chastisement when we slip up, just like innocent children do.

God Bless and keep...

Mike

Hi Mike,

I know it's hard sometimes to separate what we feel or what we think scripture is stating from what it declares. The kingdom of God is "like". What is the 'like'? Innocence as Brother SJ55 is teaching? I'd state no, not at all, for all are born into sin, and sin is natural to all men. Thus as I have stated - that's reading that into the text. No child, no mater how young... is innocent of sin. We compare children to ourselves and say that they can't be held accountable for sin, for they haven't done much anything yet. However - only one babe was born innocent, that of Jesus Christ.

What I see Jesus showing here is child-like dependance. All children are dependent at birth. All children need to be taught. All children when young are taught right from wrong, not right to wrong. Jesus is stating that the kingdom of God is like children who need their parents, who need to learn, who are instructed, not that all children who die are within the kingdom of God... It could be so, but the text doesn't declare it as such -- so one can not teach that it is truth, only declare as a human hope. So I then differ with the characterization that Jesus declare that children are born innocent and thus are in the kingdom of God. For if that were true, than and you and SJ55 are saying is that all kids were born innocent, then become guilty of sin somewhere in life, then need to become innocent again, --saved as a babe - unsaved some time later that you haven't defined - and then maybe saved again if believe in Jesus..... and that just isn't scriptural.

Salvation of of the Lord and I trust in a holy and righteous God that He saves whoever He wills and if that includes young babes, then Praise God. But I for one can't teach universally that all children who die are saved, because babes are presumed to be innocent... because that is no where within the scriptures.

For His glory...

RbG

Ah Redeemed,

If instead of "innocent," I had said that children were INNOCENT OF hate, greed, guile, selfishness, ulterior motives, etc., and that they had not yet learned these things, you probably would not have raised your objections.

That to me, exemplifies and accentuates the fact that the problem you have with the article relates to perception and semantics, rather than theological differences.

Hello Mike,

Good insight. I believe little children--though born under the curse of sin, and in need of a Savior--truly exemplify in their pristine state, characteristics that the Lord both desires and requires in us as His adult children. And we can indeed regain those attributes as blood-washed, Spirit-filled saints in God's eternal kingdom.