If You Had to Pick... Which One Are You? Proverbs 31 or Proverbs 32 Woman

[Jennifer]

I wanted to discuss the role of the woman in the church and in the Christian family. First I want to post Proverbs 31 from the Bible I'm sure all of us have read it am many even memorized it but I want you all to read it again and then read Proverbs 32 that some one had put together so as to fit many woman today. I want you to ask yourself when you have read them, and really be honest with yourself, what woman do I see myself as.... 31 or 32?

Proverbs 31:10 ¶An excellent wife, who can find? For her worth is far above jewels.
11 The heart of her husband trusts in her, And he will have no lack of gain.
12 She does him good and not evil All the days of her life.
13 She looks for wool and flax, And works with her hands in delight.
14 She is like merchant ships; She brings her food from afar.
15 She rises also while it is still night, And gives food to her household, And portions to her maidens.
16 She considers a field and buys it; From her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She girds herself with strength, And makes her arms strong.
18 She senses that her gain is good; Her lamp does not go out at night.
19 She stretches out her hands to the distaff, And her hands grasp the spindle.
20 She extends her hand to the poor; And she stretches out her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household, For all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for herself; Her clothing is fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates, When he sits among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them, And supplies belts to the tradesmen.
25 Strength and dignity are her clothing, And she smiles at the future.
26 She opens her mouth in wisdom, And the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.
27 She looks well to the ways of her household, And does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children rise up and bless her; Her husband also, and he praises her, saying:
29 "Many daughters have done nobly, But you excel them all."
30 Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain, But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised.
31 Give her the product of her hands, And let her works praise her in the gates.

Proverbs 32:1 ¶An excellent wife, who can find? For her worth is far above jewels. And she will remind you of that worth every day until death do you part.
2 The heart of her husband trusts in her, And he will have no lack of gain. If he does she will remind him of how worthless he is or has become.
3 She does him good and not evil All the days of her life. That is unless she is scorned and then all bets are off.
4 She looks for wool and flax, And works with her hands in delight. But you must tell her how much she is appreciated and daily is recommended. Otherwise delight turns into bitterness.
5 She is like merchant ships; She brings her food from afar as long as it isn't too far and takes too much of the day.
6 She rises also while it is still night, And gives food to her household, And portions to her maidens. So when she is cranky by the time you get home... you need to understand.
7 She considers a field and buys it; From her earnings she plants a vineyard. Then she will make sure others know that it is her labor and has nothing to do with you.
8 She girds herself with strength, And makes her arms strong as long as she doesn't have anything physically wrong with her. Then this isn't applicable.
9 She senses that her gain is good; Her lamp does not go out at night. Not until she is good and ready to turn it off.
10She stretches out her hands to the distaff, And her hands grasp the spindle. She then realizes that she's forgotten how to sew and gets upset because she hasn't the extra money to buy that outfit she saw in the store the other day.
11 She extends her hand to the poor; And she stretches out her hands to the needy. As long as they aren't too poor and needy. That would require adding another en tree and one might have to wait a whole 20 minutes for something to thaw in the microwave.
12 She is not afraid of the snow for her household, For all her household are clothed with scarlet. But if it rains and they don't wipe off their shoes and track mud in the house... they just don't care.
13 She makes coverings for herself; Her clothing is fine linen and purple. She just needs a lot of linen and looks like Barney because she has just let herself go over the years and now she can't get rid of the weight at all.
14 Her husband is known in the gates, When he sits among the elders of the land. They will never forget the "ON STRIKE" sign that was in the front lawn.
15 She makes linen garments and sells them, And supplies belts to the tradesmen. Then gets with the women and complains about how she has to do all of this because the dear husband isn't cutting the mustard.
16 Strength and dignity she does not know, And she cries loudly at the future.
17 She opens her mouth in folly, And the teaching of bitterness is on her tongue.
18 She looks to the ways of her household, shakes her head and then lies down.
19 Her children rise up and can't wait to find the door; Her husband only likes the door from the inside and trembles when he sees it from the outside, and he avoids her, saying:
20 "Many daughters have done nobly, But you... what can I do to please you."
21 And beware of the hissy fit. No man likes it when that happens.

[Momof5]

Thanks, Jennifer for posting this. I was waiting for the right time.....

Ladies, look at this carefully. Anyone recognize themself? It may be tongue-in-check but it hits hard, especially when it describes us.

[Bethany67]

Ouch ... just ouch. I needed to read that.

[Jennifer]

Your welcome mom5 and yeah Bethany that was pretty much my reaction the first time I read it too and it really caused me too see some things in me that I needed to change. I don't know why this topic has been on my heart so much as of late I guess it's just seeing all these young girls that are growing up to have such a bad image of what a woman is. And it seems that being a woman seems to be a lost art now a days and it really is something that is special to God. He needs real honest women especially in today's time and there just don't seem to be many.

I was listening to this woman on youtube by the name of Nancy Leigh DeMoss. I think she may have preached this sermon that I am going to put in this post a few years back but it was titled "Call For The Wailing Women" and it really helped me to see where my place is with God and how he wants to use me as a woman. I hope you guys can listen to it and tell me what you think about it.

PART 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srOMgllynEo

PART 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr3Geyq86a8

PART 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AEPbzCPQiE

PART 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWWbvi-T9lQ

PART 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCJGoz6gTHc

[Jeanne D]

I have to say that at one time I was more like the Proverbs 32 woman, but with the Lord's continued help, I am becoming more like the Proverbs 31 woman. I am still a work in progress, but NOTHING is impossible with God.

Thanks for posting this. It really makes you think.

Jeanne:)

[threebigrocks]

It is very, very, very refreshing to see a strong woman of God preach such a message. That I am not used to. Nancy is right, we do need to wake up in so many ways.

Proverbs 32 is a woman who I used to be. I have been so convicted of who I was once I was born again of God I didn't much like myself. Many things fell away easily and others grew my self control by large steps along the way. In reaching for who I was, toward Proverbs 31, made it easier. Just do it, don't dwell on what is wrong. Start doing what is right.

I will be looking up more sermons by her. Thank you Jennifer, this is a powerful message of truth.

[cnw]

wow I absolutely love this. I am printing it out and putting it in my Bible alongside that first woman who I want to be:D It will remind me not to go back to what I had been such a short time ago....
oh whoa to my husband for he was the former Proverbs 32 abused one. How he trembles when he sees that woman come out and how he rejoices when he sees the Spirit controlled woman liken unto the 31 gal. :cool:

[RobbieP]

Now, at first it took me a bit to understand...I was like Proverbs 32...did I miss that one? DUH!!!


Somebody said something about the younger women....I am not close to young but am the 32 some days more than the 31....I praise the Lord that He has shown me the difference and I know that the 31 is who He wants me to be....And He is all that matters...
That is a gigantic step for this women's libber from the 70's.....I love our Lord and my heart is to follow Him and in that I must strive to be a Proverbs 31 wife...and He is blessing amazingly because I do desire Him more than me

...although I fail....we are all in this life together and must support each other to strive for better...My honey strives to be a better husband and I a better wife...and we know we are both people striving....that alone has been a tremendous blessing....

Ahhhhhh...thank you so much for this post...it is a reminder and refreshing to know the Lord is glorified in the work He is doing in me.....it is ONLY through Him that I can read this post without cringing...He is amazing!

[createdforwishy]

Wow!!! Thanks for posting this!! I hope I don't use it like "I'm glad I'm not like her" when I share it with others. :pray:

[Momof5]

Wow!!! Thanks for posting this!! I hope I don't use it like "I'm glad I'm not like her" when I share it with others. :pray:

Instead, if we really look at it, we will say "I'm ashamed to say but I have done this or said this or treated my husband disrespectfully." And then turn from that and live according to Prov. 31.

[karenoka27]

Wahhhhh! why? You have forced me to look in the mirror and see who I really am....:B ok..not giving up!

[Momof5]

I wanted to discuss the role of the woman in the church and in the Christian family.

Now that we have looked at the comparisons given by Jennifer of Prov. 31 and Prov. 32;), how does that tie in with our role in the Christian family? Let's use scriptural support....

[Jennifer]

Well I think a good place to start would be the true definition of submission not just to our husbands but to God. The word submission has been so twisted and abused over the years that now we look down on the word as though it was something to stay in the past. But the act of submission isn't something you do by force but by choice. Take the Muslim women for example they submit by force. They have no freedoms to express their concerns or desires. This is not Godly submission because they are not doing it with the right motives they are doing it out of fear. Now look at Sara she obviously made her opinion known at times and I'm sure was lacking no drama but in the end she submitted to Abraham and was even used by Peter as an example of being and obedient wife when he was explaining to Wives how they were to treat there husbands. 1 Peter 3:1-6.

Godly submission does not say I am weak and nothingness and worthless and say yes to everything that you are told to do. But it's about motive and acting out the kindness that we are told to give not because we are women but because we are Christians.

[karenoka27]

Good points Jennifer. I have learned so much by being quiet and submitting willingly to my husband. I am often in awe of the blessings that have followed. The world has indeed corrupted our thinking.
Thanks for sharing!

[threebigrocks]

Godly submission does not say I am weak and nothingness and worthless and say yes to everything that you are told to do. But it's about motive and acting out the kindness that we are told to give not because we are women but because we are Christians.

Excellent point. If we submit to God how can we not submit to our husbands? As women, it means giving up our own will, desires and thinking (which is often focused on ourselves or through something else to shine on us) and letting God work. I know I am a doer, if something needs doing, I do. Just jump up and do it. When I was working it's what made me good at my job. Things were 99% done when asked, things in order, and special assignments underway as soon as the request was made.

Any other "doers" out there?

I had to break myself of that and still struggle from time to time. My trouble came in because I'd get ahead of God, moving without listening to Him, taking it up in prayer, seeking guidance from the Spirit and scripture. Every time, and I mean that quite literally, I'd wind up with pie on my face. Sometimes it was just a smude and sometimes it seemed the whole thing landed square in my face.

And, yet, sometimes I feel like I have overcorrected myself and wait too much. That is now my struggle - to find the balance. It's getting better, but room for improvement.

Submission, and knowing Him, can keep us in the middle of the road.

When we turn that to our husbands, it can be the same thing. Funny thing, is that submission is sometimes more spot on than between me and God. I think it just proves that when we are married and have that covering of a husband, submitting to it, that we can use that to strengthen our first love of submission in Christ.

Many wouldn't think that at our house. Lots of love here, but none of that modern sterotypical vision of what submission is.

And really, for me, that is where humility and servitude come in. ;) But, submission, always, first.

[threebigrocks]

Bump!

Ladies, I've been up to my eyeballs at home as of late, and meant to share something I've been working on that is relevant to this topic. Hopefully, tomorrow will give me plenty of opportunity to share it! This is an empowering topic, I hope it's potential to knock yer socks off comes to fruit. :)

[ilovethelordjesus]

Interesting my bible only has up to proverbs 31.31 and i am a lady just to let you know

[Momof5]

Interesting my bible only has up to proverbs 31.31 and i am a lady just to let you know

All of our Bibles have up to Proverbs 31:31 - there is no Proverbs 32....it is something to make us take a look at ourselves and we see most modern day women in it. Read the first post and you will see it.

By the way, welcome!:)

[moltenflower]

An interesting question...am I one or the other. Though I don't have the right to judge myself and thank The Lord, He judges my heart, I would have to say that I am Proverbs 31. However, I'm human and not perfect which is reflected in all that I do and say every single day. I'm thankful that the Holy Spirit works on my daily :)

I'm not someone who can sew but I can cook. I'm not someone who tends to growing things, this isn't my gift. However, my gifts are taking care of animals and humans, which I do rather nicely.

I would venture to say that there have been times when my husband questioned if marrying me was a good decision while looking back (hindsight) but we're still together and October will be 18 years.

So overall, I would say that I'm Proverbs 31.

[ilovethelordjesus]

Oh thank you momo5! For the explaining and welcoming for me.

[threebigrocks]

Here is the study of sorts I've been working on. I've come to learn that unless I understand God's purpose and order of things it was hard for me to figure out where, as a woman and a wife, I really should be. Once I began to figure it out - much became far easier because I could "see" where I was shooting for! Being the Proverbs 31 woman was something I could dig into because I knew God's plan for His order of things. Propriety is where it's at!


How to Take On The P32 Woman Through Propriety


Proverbs 32 as far as scripture is concerned is not existent. But the Proverbs 32 woman is no stranger to either scripture or to us in this life.

She is someone that comes naturally to us, someone who loves herself, a keeper of order for her own sake and defined by her, demanding comfort and the easy road. She is the ruler of her house and holds herself in highest regard and produces her own light and makes certain that it is set up where all can see it. Her children call her all sorts of things, and her husband has no need to call on her.

The thing is, when we let what is natural we have set aside the leading of the Spirit and allow the flesh to rule.

Our flesh demands ease, it doesn’t want discourse. It sets up a guidebook to please itself and is at the whim of the author to change it as necessary to fit what pleases.

Pride is the honor of the flesh, and loves to govern over those around them. It makes certain that all around them know that they are the source of all that is not only good – but best.

So long as Momma’s happy – so goes the family. Her children are their own boss, and exercise over each other that authority they see mom cling to. Her husband doesn’t have need to seek her out, but rather is quite aware of where she is – and her him. She may need something. She is his authority, and she will let him know should he step out of her ever changing bounds.

Flesh is sinful and we are as filthy rags before a just and holy God. Scripture is our guidebook and never changes. We have an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God. Pride is as far from humility as black is from white. We cannot produce our own light, but only reflect that light from Christ. And the last nail in the Proverbs 32 coffin – God does care a wit if we are happy now. Our calling is to simply follow Him and continue on in the new creation we are given.

Submission in our modern world is not a nice word. Despite the fact it has 10 letters with many women doesn’t change the fact it’s a 4 letter word. Submit is synonymous to all our American culture despises. Thing is, in the world of faith it is of crucial importance. There is an order to things, and that order has been established since before time began.

Christ submitted fully to the will Father, and did nothing outside of that will. For a time I thought it was odd that Jesus prayed to the Father. It was like He was praying to Himself. In reality it was a beautiful, personal act of willful submission. Jesus took all things to the Father, and did as the Father willed. He was sent by the Father, and chose to lay down His life according the plan and will of the Father, even for the unworthy of the grace to come. We can see that Christ Jesus submitted to the Father’s will fully and completely in all things. In despite of Jesus’ divinity and equality to the Father, He humbled Himself as a man before God. In His death and resurrection He was lifted up, seated on a throne, and given authority to rule and reign for a time. Christ became not only our model for walking through this world, but also the only way we can gain access to the Father.

We as man (and for continuity sake I’ll use the term man in this context for now) must humble ourselves just as Christ did. Just as Christ was in willful submission to the Father, we too must also submit to Christ. We need to lay down our life and die to self, willfully submitting and laying down our own life allowing Christ to have life in us. We, our flesh, ceases to exist. We live in faith, our spirit redeemed, and awaiting the redemption of our flesh. Again, death is the only way our physical self can be made clean, to also be raised incorruptible.

To this point, we have man in submission, or subject, to Christ. We have Christ subject to the Father. That is the order and propriety of God, established since the beginning.

[Momof5]

This is good! I have to chew on this tonight (and go make supper and get ready to go to church) and will be back to it in the morning.

[karenoka27]

We could all look at Proverbs 31 and say that we do some parts of it..but I would challenge you to take it deeper.
Get a mirror and look into it reciting this verse:
Psalm 139-23-24-"Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts;And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in The Way everlasting."
As you are looking into it ask yourself:
vs.10-11-Does my husband not have to ever worry about what is going on at home? How I am raising the children, what he will eat, etc. Is home a safe haven for him?
vs.12-Does my husband know for certain that I would never speak poorly of him to anyone, my own mother, friend,neighbor, church ladies?
vs.13-Does my husband not have to worry if there is food in the cupboards, or if he has clean clothes to wear to work?
vs. 15-22-Does my husband never have to wonder what I am doing at home, knowing that I am as busy as he is (whether working at a job, or working in the home), and that I'm not sitting around watching soap operas, or spend my day on the phone with friends?
vs,23-Is my husband respected not only at his job, but by my own family and friends because I would never give them any reason to not have respect for him?
vs. 26-When I speak to my husband, does he never have to wonder if it is going to sound like the dripping on a tin roof? Is he not only willing to hear me but anxious to hear what I might say because I use my words carefully around him?
vs.27-Do I understand that my calling as a wife is 24 hours a day and I don't check out after the dinner dishes are done? Does my husband see that in me?
vs. 28-29-Am I seeing the fruit of my labors in raising my children? Have I done all that I can or am I doing all that I can to one day send them off walking with the Lord when it is time to let them go? Will they be able to say they were raised by a godly mother?
vs. 30-Is the beauty that is seen in me that of a woman who loves her family and puts them before her make up and hair and clothes?
vs. 31- Do my actions speak for themselves?

I'll be honest and tell you that I am convicted by my own questions. We want to be all that God has created us to be and we must strive to be the person/wife/mother that God has called us to be. It doesn't just happen.

[GodSeeker]

I am struggling with this issue. My husband and I basically have reversed roles in our house. He stays home with our daughter and I work multiple jobs to pay the bills and put food on the table. Can I still be a Proverbs 31 woman without staying home? Honestly he handles the majority of the housework and stuff. We both word it as "I bring home the bacon and he figures out what to do with it."

[superwoman8977]

I am struggling with this issue. My husband and I basically have reversed roles in our house. He stays home with our daughter and I work multiple jobs to pay the bills and put food on the table. Can I still be a Proverbs 31 woman without staying home? Honestly he handles the majority of the housework and stuff. We both word it as "I bring home the bacon and he figures out what to do with it."

I firmly believe that you can. I know in my situation I am a single mom of 2 almost 3, work full time and come home and run a household and I do this because this was the hand I was dealt. My husband cheated on me and then walked out and now is married to the woman he cheated on me with, and yes I hate it and yes there are days it seems I am not going to get through but Christ has always been there for me no matter what. Life isnt perfect and it sure isnt a fairytale, Life is how you choose to balance the situation that you are thrown into with seeking the Lord first and letting the rest fall into place. Life is not sitting there whining oh I cant do this and this and this, life is getting up and pulling yourself up by the bootstraps and using those lemons to make lemonade.

[Momof5]

I've wanted to get back to this thread and everything else seemed to get in the way....

TBR - you nailed everything exactly in your post on the order and propriety from the beginning. In Genesis 3:16, God judged the woman and the last part of the verse is....Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you. The commentaries I have read state that the word desire can also mean an attempt to usurp or control. God tells us to submit to our husbands but what we want to do is take his place and/or control him...sounds like the Proverbs 32 woman, doesn't it?

Both your and Karen's studies are excellent for digging into how we are to become godly wives.

[RZ06]

Thank you for posting this. It really hit close to home. I can admit that sadly, I am the Proverbs 32 woman.

I posted this in my blog for my friends to read as well. I think many wives can relate to this at some point in their marriage.

[Momof5]

Thank you for posting this. It really hit close to home. I can admit that sadly, I am the Proverbs 32 woman.

I posted this in my blog for my friends to read as well. I think many wives can relate to this at some point in their marriage.

I agree that we all have a struggle with this.....what are you and I doing, as Christian women, to be the wife God intends us to be? We cannot do it on our own....only by total submission to the Lord can we do this.

[RoadWarrior]

Have any of you read "Captivating" by Stasi and John Eldredge? I'm about halfway through it and there are a couple of things that have really caught my attention.

The first is the word translated as helper or helpmeet, for the Genesis 2:18 woman God made for Adam - the Hebrew is "ezer kenegdo", and it means a great deal more than helper. When they searched out the Hebrew, everywhere else that it appears in the Bible, it refers to God. I'm still wrapping my mind around this one.

Here is the Strong's definition of ezer: (kenegdo means counterpart or mate)

OT:5828 `ezer (ay'-zer); from OT:5826; aid:
KJV - help.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

And here is the result of an Englishman's search on ezer, it is the word "help" in each of these verses:

Genesis 2:18
18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
KJV
Ge 2:20
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
KJV
Exodus 18:4
4 And the name of the other was Eliezer; for the God of my father, said he, was mine help, and delivered me from the sword of Pharaoh:
KJV
Deuteronomy 33:7
7 And this is the blessing of Judah: and he said, Hear, Lord, the voice of Judah, and bring him unto his people: let his hands be sufficient for him; and be thou an help to him from his enemies.
KJV
Deuteronomy 33:26
26 There is none like unto the God of Jeshurun, who rideth upon the heaven in thy help, and in his excellency on the sky.
KJV
Deuteronomy 33:29
29 Happy art thou, O Israel: who is like unto thee, O people saved by the Lord, the shield of thy help, and who is the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places.
KJV
Psalms 20:2
2 Send thee help from the sanctuary, and strengthen thee out of Zion;
KJV
Psalms 33:20
20 Our soul waiteth for the Lord: he is our help and our shield.
KJV
Psalms 70:5
5 But I am poor and needy: make haste unto me, O God: thou art my help and my deliverer; O Lord, make no tarrying.
KJV
Psalms 89:19
19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.
KJV
Psalms 115:9
9 O Israel, trust thou in the Lord: he is their help and their shield.
KJV
Psalms 115:10
10 O house of Aaron, trust in the Lord: he is their help and their shield.
KJV
Psalms 115:11
11 Ye that fear the Lord, trust in the Lord: he is their help and their shield.
KJV
Psalms 121:1
A Song of degrees.
121 I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.
KJV
Psalms 121:2
2 My help cometh from the Lord, which made heaven and earth.
KJV
Psalms 124:8
8 Our help is in the name of the Lord, who made heaven and earth.
KJV
Psalms 146:5
5 Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the Lord his God:
KJV
Isaiah 30:5
5 They were all ashamed of a people that could not profit them, nor be an help nor profit, but a shame, and also a reproach.
KJV
Ezekiel 12:14
14 And I will scatter toward every wind all that are about him to help him, and all his bands; and I will draw out the sword after them.
KJV
Daniel 11:34
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
KJV
Hosea 13:9
9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.
KJV

[carissadawn]

I know that this is an old thread, but it has a great topic so i'm bumping it for my own reference. :)

(I wish my printer wasn't out of ink.)

[Lady Ashanti]

Well I think a good place to start would be the true definition of submission not just to our husbands but to God. The word submission has been so twisted and abused over the years that now we look down on the word as though it was something to stay in the past. But the act of submission isn't something you do by force but by choice. Take the Muslim women for example they submit by force. They have no freedoms to express their concerns or desires. This is not Godly submission because they are not doing it with the right motives they are doing it out of fear. Now look at Sara she obviously made her opinion known at times and I'm sure was lacking no drama but in the end she submitted to Abraham and was even used by Peter as an example of being and obedient wife when he was explaining to Wives how they were to treat there husbands. 1 Peter 3:1-6.

Godly submission does not say I am weak and nothingness and worthless and say yes to everything that you are told to do. But it's about motive and acting out the kindness that we are told to give not because we are women but because we are Christians.

Beautiful!!! :hug:

Maybe a thread should be started on "submission"...

I believe submission is a gift that a wife gives to a husband she loves and respects recognizing that neither of them are perfect, not a position a husband demands from his wife.

Submission is not necessary when both agree, it is only necessary when they don't, then the wife submits to the headship of her husband trusting that he knows what is best for the family, [and her].

This involves a great deal of trust so women should look at their trust level before they marry, [and if they deem him trustworthy]. Often we focus on the wrong things, and intend to marry for the wrong reasons when we should ask ourselves if we really "trust" this man with our lives, and purpose/destiny in God? Also, is he submitted to the Lord?

Just a thought...[did I go off topic? I apologize]...

[Lady Ashanti]

I've wanted to get back to this thread and everything else seemed to get in the way....

TBR - you nailed everything exactly in your post on the order and propriety from the beginning. In Genesis 3:16, God judged the woman and the last part of the verse is....Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you. The commentaries I have read state that the word desire can also mean an attempt to usurp or control. God tells us to submit to our husbands but what we want to do is take his place and/or control him...sounds like the Proverbs 32 woman, doesn't it?

Both your and Karen's studies are excellent for digging into how we are to become godly wives.

This is not true in the original text, and I have found that real women do not want to control their husbands, only women that have been indoctrinated by society do.

Real women, and especially godly women "desire for their husband to be in his God-given place", covering them, providing for them, and yes, taking charge of things. They rejoice to have a man they can lean on, and trust to handle "business", [whatever that business may be].

If women get back to their core femininity, and shake off the "women's lib" movement...they will discover their original intent in God, and welcome it.

I rejoice that I am able to be a "woman" again...so few know what that really means, or how powerful that is.

[DaniHansen]

I find that a woman's desire to control their men is usually rooted in fear and mistrust. "I'm going to take control before you can hurt me."

I used to be a massive control freak due to childhood abuse and have had to learn to not only trust God/Jesus as a male, but then also my husband. It's been challenging for sure but on the flipside, since I don't have to control all these things anymore to satisfy my own fears, it makes for a lot less stressful times for me. :)

On the other hand, I do think it is prudent for wives to partake of responsibilities such as finances, etc., even if we don't control them but to at least be aware. If for some reason our men are pulled out of our lives, even temporarily (not to sow paranoia but life can be very unpredictable) we'll be in a better place knowing where everything is, how much is there, and how to access it. My husband is my husband, not my dad, and I am his partner, not his child. It's good to keep the middle ground and avoid the extremes, IMO.

Edit: I didn't even respond to the OP, sorry.

I'm still, to this day, VERY intimidated by Proverbs 31. Even now, the lady described therein is some sort of super-lady to my view. Perhaps I'm just missing the contemporary translation of it but I've always had a hard time getting my head wrapped around that whole passage.

There are days where I couldn't be further from Proverbs 31. Hormones make me grumpy and stress catches up with me and my kids are at each other again and so on and so forth. Ugh.

But honestly, when I examine my life and my position with God and within my home, I can be at peace. I'm not afraid to work and take care of my children. I was a single mom for a number of years and we somehow made it through that, by God's grace. I enjoy order and cleanness and make sure my husband and kids have what they need, even though they don't always have what they want because there's only so much of me to go around and I don't last as long nor stretch as far as I used to. I bathe everyone in prayer, constantly, and make sure that God is ultimately in control of my home and gives us all the grace we need to make it through another day. :)

What I get out of it is this:

It's good to be industrious and to care for our homes and its inhabitants by making sure everyone is fed and clothed.
It's good to be smart about economic decisions instead of foolishly wasting money.
It's good to make our families and homes our focus instead of our careers or our friends or other things. Priorities are essential, IMO.
It's good to be loyal to our spouse and children so they can be secure in that and don't have to worry that we're going to sell them down the river by our words or our actions.
It's good for us to be watchful spiritually to make sure the enemy doesn't get his dirty hands into the pot and keep our families covered, no matter how long it takes to pray a matter through.
It's good to make household decision with an eye on the future rather than spending everything on today alone, because tomorrow will eventually come, and then what?
It's good to strengthen ourselves in God and to take care of ourselves to make sure that our bodies hold up and our minds hold up (barring circumstances beyond our control) and we keep our wits about us for as long as we can because our families depend on us to be there for them (yes, Virginia, it's okay to take a bubble bath or read a book or take your vitamins and get some exercise to make sure the stress doesn't get the better of you and you find energy to tackle today's chores).
It's good to consider the poor, who according to Jesus will be with us always and to give to them as God leads and enables us, because we do reap what we sow.
It's good to seek wisdom from God so that we do not find ourselves bereft of words and unable to say what is needed in a situation.
It's good to fear the Lord, above all, and to keep our focus on Him, because unless He builds a house, the builders labor in vain. I'm no fan of laboring in vain and so my foundation must be God, underneath it all.

:)

[Lady Ashanti]

I find that a woman's desire to control their men is usually rooted in fear and mistrust. "I'm going to take control before you can hurt me."

I used to be a massive control freak due to childhood abuse and have had to learn to not only trust God/Jesus as a male, but then also my husband. It's been challenging for sure but on the flipside, since I don't have to control all these things anymore to satisfy my own fears, it makes for a lot less stressful times for me. :)

On the other hand, I do think it is prudent for wives to partake of responsibilities such as finances, etc., even if we don't control them but to at least be aware. If for some reason our men are pulled out of our lives, even temporarily (not to sow paranoia but life can be very unpredictable) we'll be in a better place knowing where everything is, how much is there, and how to access it. My husband is my husband, not my dad, and I am his partner, not his child. It's good to keep the middle ground and avoid the extremes, IMO.

Edit: I didn't even respond to the OP, sorry.

I'm still, to this day, VERY intimidated by Proverbs 31. Even now, the lady described therein is some sort of super-lady to my view. Perhaps I'm just missing the contemporary translation of it but I've always had a hard time getting my head wrapped around that whole passage.

There are days where I couldn't be further from Proverbs 31. Hormones make me grumpy and stress catches up with me and my kids are at each other again and so on and so forth. Ugh.

But honestly, when I examine my life and my position with God and within my home, I can be at peace. I'm not afraid to work and take care of my children. I was a single mom for a number of years and we somehow made it through that, by God's grace. I enjoy order and cleanness and make sure my husband and kids have what they need, even though they don't always have what they want because there's only so much of me to go around and I don't last as long nor stretch as far as I used to. I bathe everyone in prayer, constantly, and make sure that God is ultimately in control of my home and gives us all the grace we need to make it through another day. :)

What I get out of it is this:

It's good to be industrious and to care for our homes and its inhabitants by making sure everyone is fed and clothed.
It's good to be smart about economic decisions instead of foolishly wasting money.
It's good to make our families and homes our focus instead of our careers or our friends or other things. Priorities are essential, IMO.
It's good to be loyal to our spouse and children so they can be secure in that and don't have to worry that we're going to sell them down the river by our words or our actions.
It's good for us to be watchful spiritually to make sure the enemy doesn't get his dirty hands into the pot and keep our families covered, no matter how long it takes to pray a matter through.
It's good to make household decision with an eye on the future rather than spending everything on today alone, because tomorrow will eventually come, and then what?
It's good to strengthen ourselves in God and to take care of ourselves to make sure that our bodies hold up and our minds hold up (barring circumstances beyond our control) and we keep our wits about us for as long as we can because our families depend on us to be there for them (yes, Virginia, it's okay to take a bubble bath or read a book or take your vitamins and get some exercise to make sure the stress doesn't get the better of you and you find energy to tackle today's chores).
It's good to consider the poor, who according to Jesus will be with us always and to give to them as God leads and enables us, because we do reap what we sow.
It's good to seek wisdom from God so that we do not find ourselves bereft of words and unable to say what is needed in a situation.
It's good to fear the Lord, above all, and to keep our focus on Him, because unless He builds a house, the builders labor in vain. I'm no fan of laboring in vain and so my foundation must be God, underneath it all.

:)

I like this, doesn't seem difficult to at all...:pp

[Lady Ashanti]

“The wife has a natural proclivity to try to rule her husband”… This is the most damaging “myth” as I see it, because it causes division. Genesis 3:16 doesn’t appear to say this at all, and even in a stretch, I couldn’t see how anyone came to believe that this scripture is saying that a woman would desire to rule men, or her husband.

Also, when I looked up the original interpretation, the definition was completely different from what I had been taught, so at first, I couldn’t figure out where it came from. Then I heard something on the radio that helped me see the confusion.

A pastor was quoting Genesis 3: 16, and he translated the definition of the word desire from the Arabic, when it is not from that language, but should be translated from the Hebrew/Chaldean!!!

The Hebrew word desire in Genesis 3:16 means “to long, to crave, to stretch out after, to delight in”, [which is also similar to the definition for worship], but it also means to choose. The Lord said a wife’s desire, [longing, craving, stretching out for, choosing], will be for her husband, in a sense, her “worship” will be for her husband.

This is why Paul could tell wives in Ephesians 5: 22, submit as unto the Lord, and in I Peter 3: 6...calling him lord. According to God, a wife’s desire toward her husband should be second only to her worship of Him.

[Ezer Kenegdo]

That same word for desire in Gen 3:16 is also used in Song of Solomon:
Son 7:10 I am my beloved's, and his desire is toward me.

[Jennifer]

That same word for desire in Gen 3:16 is also used in Song of Solomon:
Son 7:10 I am my beloved's, and his desire is toward me.

You are closer to right than anybody on this passage is talking about pain in birthing a child and yet your desire will be for your husband 'The desire" part of that passage is speaking about the desire to have sexual relations with the husband EVEN though it causes increased pain to have a child. Folks have misunderstood this passage for a long time and by that they have misused it. The husband ruling over them is key too. Remember the various stories in the Old Testament and how it was such a major thing to have children? Sarah, Rebeccah and etc. Even trading ducks for a night in bed with their husband. I suspect the husbands had it made. ;)

[Lady Ashanti]

You are closer to right than anybody on this passage is talking about pain in birthing a child and yet your desire will be for your husband 'The desire" part of that passage is speaking about the desire to have sexual relations with the husband EVEN though it causes increased pain to have a child. Folks have misunderstood this passage for a long time and by that they have misused it. The husband ruling over them is key too. Remember the various stories in the Old Testament and how it was such a major thing to have children? Sarah, Rebeccah and etc. Even trading ducks for a night in bed with their husband. I suspect the husbands had it made. ;)

The ability to be fruitful, and milutiply was always there from creation, [sex, and having babies], it was until after the fall that the Lord put Adam over Eve, [for her protection], and said she would "desire" him, [also note in that particular scripture the Lord wasn't pronouncing a curse, but a re-positioning...

Please note:

When Adam and Eve were created, they were equal in dominion and authority. The Bible says He told them to have dominion over the earth. This is why the belief that Eve gave Adam the fruit to control him is erroneous.

Genesis 3:6 reads that she gave him the fruit because it was “good and pleasing to the eye”. She was not trying to harm him; in fact she thought she was helping him. I believe that is why Adam ate the fruit, because of her equal position to him. But it was still sin so they had to be re-positioned, also. So the Lord repositions the man and woman. When I was reading this the Lord kept showing me John 3:16. It was almost as though they were super imposed on top of each other. Then I got what the Lord was trying to show me.

Originally Christ was equal to God, read Phil. 2:6, but when sin came into the picture, God had to re-position Christ for a time to save mankind. Now Jesus was in flesh and had to come under God. Phil 2: 7-8 says…when Christ found Himself in flesh, He humbled Himself…came under, but this was first typified in the Garden.

Let me clarify…the Hebrew word desire in Genesis 3:16 means to long, to crave, to delight in, but it also means to choose. The Hebrew word rule means to govern, to lead, but it also means to shepherd, to be first in rank. What the Lord actually spoke in that scripture was, because of sin, I am re-positioning you two, you will no longer be equal in position, but for your own protection, Eve, Adam will govern, shepherd you. He will be the first in rank in case of attack, and you will choose this to be so. With leadership comes responsibility. Saints!

In Genesis 3:16, God gave the woman to the man in a whole new relationship naturally, just as He gave us to Christ in a whole new relationship scripturally. This is confirmed in Eph. 5:22-33…wives submit, as unto the Lord…Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her…this is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. What Paul is saying is, if you can understand the marriage positioning, then you will understand the church’s position with Christ. There are some things you learn in a marriage relationship that will help you in relating to church structure. See, we think it’s reverse, but the Lord created marriage before He created the church, (genesis before Acts).

Now let’s go back to I Cor.11: 4-6. Paul goes from the man being the head of a woman, to a woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered with no apparent connection, but the connection is between “head” and “covering”.

The word covering in this scripture means to wholly/completely cover, conceal, protect, or hide…to be covered daily by relationship or joining. And we have already established that “head” means the part most readily taken hold of, or first line of defense. What Paul says here is women, do not go out praying, prophesying, ministering without a covering relationship with a male, according to divine order.

Now Christ is the Head of us all in the spirit, but the Lord has ordained for us, ladies, to have a natural male covering in this earth realm, to symbolize the authority set up by God.

[Ezer Kenegdo]

When Adam and Eve were created, they were equal in dominion and authority. The Bible says He told them to have dominion over the earth.

I cannot agree with you that Adam and Eve were equal before the fall. Eve was created because the man had a need - he needed a helper. God could have created Adam and Eve at the same time, each from the dust. But He created Adam, gave him some work to do, and then said "This man needs someone. I'll provide the perfect help for him." Then he took Eve from Adam, performing the first operation. :) Paul goes back to the very creation of woman when he says: 1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
1Co 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
1Co 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
While there is no male or female in Christ, and in terms of worth before God, from the very beginning God put in place an authority / submission structure in the relation between the man and the woman. We see that in the very way Eve was created and how she was brought to the man.

[Lady Ashanti]

I cannot agree with you that Adam and Eve were equal before the fall. Eve was created because the man had a need - he needed a helper. God could have created Adam and Eve at the same time, each from the dust. But He created Adam, gave him some work to do, and then said "This man needs someone. I'll provide the perfect help for him." Then he took Eve from Adam, performing the first operation. .

I agree with the process however just because the Lord made Eve second does not mean that they were not equals. If you will search the scripture you will see that the Lord told them , to subdue, and have dominion, [power], equally.


:) Paul goes back to the very creation of woman when he says: While there is no male or female in Christ, and in terms of worth before God, from the very beginning God put in place an authority / submission structure in the relation between the man and the woman. We see that in the very way Eve was created and how she was brought to the man.

I am afraid that I am not sure what this has to do with the topic I was commiting on. Also, that is not exactly what the scripture states, [just parts of scriptures put together], because if you read in the beginning of Genesis you will see this was not so, and was changed by the "fall".

I never said that a woman was not to submit to her [B]husband, [scripture does not teach submission of all women to all men, just a wife to her husband]. We were discussing the erroneous teaching that a woman has an inbreed desire to attempt to rule her husband which there is no scriptural reference to validate that.

Blessings...