Hiring illegal aliens

[Welder4Christ]

In the state of California, where I live, illegal immigration is a serious social and political problem. Many people come across the border seeking work in order to support their families.

Many of them congregate outside the Home Depot store every day, waiting for someone to hire them for the day. While it is easy for us as Christians to look down upon these people, and condemn them for coming here illegally, what we are forgetting to realize is that they are here only because they and their families live in poverty in Mexico, and they are merely trying to earn money to support their families. For them, coming here illegally is the only way for them to earn enough $$$ to live.

So, with that in mind, how do you feel that we, as Christians, should deal with this issue? Do you feel that it is a sin for a Christian business owner to hire illegal immigrants, as it is against the law, or do you feel that the legal aspect should take a back seat to the humanitarian aspect, and we should allow them the opportunity to earn $$$?

If a Christian business owner can hire illegal aliens for less $$$, and help these people in the process, do you think it is okay....or should Christians always refuse to hire them, and abide by the law?

I guess what I'm asking is....what takes precedence, mercy or lawfulness?

BTW, I am not a businesswoman....just a curious believer.

[Krav]

I'm originally from CA (moved about 3 years ago), so I know exactly what you are talking about. There are a couple of issues involved in this that complicate the matter.

The first thing is that by hiring illegal aliens you are "cheating" in the marketplace by undercutting other competitors who are "playing by the rules." By hiring illegal aliens as "cheap labor" you are able to bid jobs lower than others who do not hire them. This is unfair to them.

Also, by hiring them you are depriving lawful citizens of their right to work for a decent wage. We hear a lot about the outsourcing of jobs overseas, but we are outsourcing a lot of them domestically because the labor pool is coming to us. This is unfair to your fellow Americans.

Another possibility is that you are paying them "under the table" because, by their very nature, they are not authorized to work here. This means you are "cooking the books" in your company and not paying required taxes. This problem is further exacerbated by the illegal aliens not paying taxes on their cash wages, yet they consume a much higher amount of public services (medical, education, etc.).

If you want to help Mexican people, or anyone for that matter, in poverty there are plenty of charities and/or ministries to contribute to. Supporting them in this way means you will not be cheating your competitors, working Americans, or the taxpayers in the process. You'll also get a nice tax deduction ;)

BTW, usually people hire illegal aliens out of greed, not mercy. They are looking to increase their profitability by hiring cheaper labor. I say usually because I am not saying this is your motivation. If you want to show mercy to them then just give them some money or a gift card for the grocery store. But, keep in mind that most illegal aliens have vastly lower costs of living than you or I do. It is not uncommon for them to have 2 or 3 families living in a single family home sharing expenses. They are used to living in cramped quarters like that, while we are not.

[Welder4Christ]

Hi, Krav;

Those are some excellent points that I had never even thought about.

The thing is, many businesses, especially in the manufacturing industry, do hire illegal aliens...more than many people would realize. So as far as businesses undercutting one another by hiring cheap labor, I'm sure a lot of it pans out in the end.

One particular point of contention with me is the fact that none of these people speak English. Even those who are of legal status...many of them do not speak English. I work in a lot of warehouses, and the job I do is very dangerous. Much of the time, communication is absolutely imperative. I will need to communicate with other people in the warehouse. This is extremely difficult if no one speaks English.

If I am working underneath a heavy piece of equipment, and I need someone to help me operate it from the top, and the guy who is helping me doesn't speak English, then I can't do my work. Not only that, but if some guy who drives a forklift goes to lower a dock ramp, and I am underneath, how is he going to understand me when I tell him to stop, or slow down?

I'm just saying, when a language barrier exists in the workplace, it really does make things difficult....even life-threatening. "Pray without ceasing" is definitely my workplace motto. ;)

[Krav]

Hi, Krav;

Those are some excellent points that I had never even thought about.

The thing is, many businesses, especially in the manufacturing industry, do hire illegal aliens...more than many people would realize. So as far as businesses undercutting one another by hiring cheap labor, I'm sure a lot of it pans out in the end.

Welder, I guess that rationalization could be used for steroids in sports, too. Everyone's doing it.

Unfortunately, the right thing is not usually the easy thing to do in a lot of situations.

What does your conscience tell you? If you're asking here I think I already know :cool:

[Welder4Christ]

Welder, I guess that rationalization could be used for steroids in sports, too. Everyone's doing it.

Unfortunately, the right thing is not usually the easy thing to do in a lot of situations.

What does your conscience tell you? If you're asking here I think I already know :cool:

Hi, Krav;

Like I said, I'm not a businesswoman, so it's not really a conscience issue with me. It's more like just knowing how to reason Biblically.

I had brought this up on another Christian message board, and it sparked quite the debate....while some people said we should abide by the law, others said that we should show mercy to those less fortunate.

Honestly, the only time I ever even considered "hiring" one of these laboreres was when I had to move some furniture, but ended up getting a friend to help me instead. I suppose I could have gone the "legal" route, and hired some moving men to help me, but that would have cost me much more than I could afford at the time.

So, what is your opinion? Would have been lawless of me to hire some illegal aliens to help me move this furniture, and would I have been contributing to the economic demise of moving companies?

[Krav]

Hi, Krav;

Like I said, I'm not a businesswoman, so it's not really a conscience issue with me. It's more like just knowing how to reason Biblically.

I had brought this up on another Christian message board, and it sparked quite the debate....while some people said we should abide by the law, others said that we should show mercy to those less fortunate.

Honestly, the only time I ever even considered "hiring" one of these laboreres was when I had to move some furniture, but ended up getting a friend to help me instead. I suppose I could have gone the "legal" route, and hired some moving men to help me, but that would have cost me much more than I could afford at the time.

So, what is your opinion? Would have been lawless of me to hire some illegal aliens to help me move this furniture, and would I have been contributing to the economic demise of moving companies?

In that type of case I don't think so. I remember using them once to help me load my U-Haul truck. I don't think there are ethical problems with paying them to work (I paid them about $12/hr, so I wasn't exploiting them), but other issues could come up like the unfair competition.

The way I looked at it was they were helping me do some personal business I could not do on my own. I normally would have had friends help me, but I am loathe to ask friends to help me move. We all know how 'fun' moving is and I opted not to share the love with friends :lol:

[Welder4Christ]

LOL....Awww, you didn't want to bless them by allowing them to help you?! :lol:

I get what you're saying. I've heard some people argue that hiring illegals actually stimulates the economy because it lowers production costs, which lowers the cost of the product. I'm not sure I agree with this. I'm sure that somewhere along the chain, the money that they are supposedly saving is being pocketed, rather than the savings being passed down to us.

As far as their being paid "under the table," this doesn't just happen with illegals. There are also citizens that are being paid that way. The problem lies with the greedy business owners...not with the illegals.

The truth is, a lot of these illegals are not being paid decent wages...they are getting cheated because they are illegals. Business owners will pay them less than what they are worth because there is no law regulating wage requirements when it comes to illegals, so it becomes an ethical issue more than anything. It's not like the illegals are going to turn around and report them.

This being said, I go back to the original question....Do you think that it is a sin for a Christian business owner to hire illegal aliens? On what basis? Is it the fact that he is breaking the law, or is it something else?

[Sold Out]

If a Christian business owner can hire illegal aliens for less $$$, and help these people in the process, do you think it is okay....or should Christians always refuse to hire them, and abide by the law?

I guess what I'm asking is....what takes precedence, mercy or lawfulness?


Christians are commanded to obey the law of the land and submit to the authorities God has put us under. It is unlawful to hire illegal aliens in the United States, therefore it is wrong in the eyes of God.

"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God." Romans 13:1

[Mograce2U]

I don't think there is any law being broken if we hire someone to do a job for us and pay them cash - if we are doing so as a homeowner. If we take them on for more than a day however, we do have laws to comply with.

But for a businessman to do this, there are laws which he is legally obligated to follow because of the license he has under the state & the Feds, whether he pays them cash or not. The minimum wage law is one. The withholding of tax is another. The paperwork involved here requires that a social security number or legal work permit be presented and recorded. If he pays more than $600 out in any year to the same person, he must withhold the tax using a W-4 form or have him sign a W-9 whereby he states he will pay the tax himself. Both forms need a valid ssn or permit.

There are severe fines to pay if one neglects to do this. The Department of Labor responds very quickly when it is brought to their attention and has the right to come in and close down one's business until their investigation is finished. So does the FTB and IRS. INS too can impose stiff fines.

So as is always the case with those who think they can take their chance with breaking the law, the consequences of getting caught ought to be considered beforehand - if one wants to stay in business that is.

But the moral issue IMO is when, because these governing agencies close their eyes if sufficient (though fraudulent) documentation is provided; that it encourages these illegals to commit a felony by taking the identity of law abiding citizens in order to use their ssn. And once they have a paycheck for proof, what is to stop them from seeking credit in that person's name?

The perpetuation of criminal activity is what the real issue about illegal aliens is about. And here in California it seems they do not want to address it because too many have their hands in the pot - beginning with the State itself who has no problem collecting their taxes.

The DMV plan was a good one because it would allow these individuals to not be hidden in society where their other crimes can go unnoticed. It would mean they have to get driver's licenses if they want to drive and insurance to go with it. Whereas now the police often just let them go when they don't. If you start out "a new life" in a country that does nothing to stop or prevent criminal activity, it won't be long before that is the way of your life.

Europe has been successful with its guest worker programs, there is no excuse for us to not have one as well.

[Kaninchen]

This is a tough issue for me. On one hand, I think we should all do our best to help those in need. Giving money to charities, as suggested above, is a nice gesture, but I don't think it does much to improve the lives of those people who are already in the country illegally, and I doubt it reaches many in Mexico either, or the situation there would not be so desperate. However, giving people low-pay jobs, even though it sounds nice, is only a temporary measure. It maintains a cycle of poverty, because the individuals getting those jobs are not making enough money to save for emergencies, to better themselves through education and training, and often, as pointed out, is done out of greed for cheap labour, not to help everybody. I also don't feel it is fair for companies to rely on cheap, illegal labour, since it deprives legal citizens of the chance for employment. I think the U.S. system of immigration should be revamped. Pairing tighter border control and expediting applications for legal entrance to the country would be ideal. I definitely don't have all the answers but I think a balanced approach would be the best.

[Krav]

The perpetuation of criminal activity is what the real issue about illegal aliens is about. And here in California it seems they do not want to address it because too many have their hands in the pot - beginning with the State itself who has no problem collecting their taxes.

The DMV plan was a good one because it would allow these individuals to not be hidden in society where their other crimes can go unnoticed. It would mean they have to get driver's licenses if they want to drive and insurance to go with it. Whereas now the police often just let them go when they don't. If you start out "a new life" in a country that does nothing to stop or prevent criminal activity, it won't be long before that is the way of your life.

Europe has been successful with its guest worker programs, there is no excuse for us to not have one as well.

Mograce, I gotta say that i really like reading your posts. Very thoughtful and well laid out. Not to mention that I find myself agreeing with you the vast majority of the time on issues.

Regarding the driver's license issue... I was in California when that whole thing was going down and I stood on the opposite end of opinion. I think if we grant any kind of license to an illegal alien we are condoning their first crime, which is illegally entering the country. Sure, it would be good to "get them on the record." But, if we ignore illegal entry then we are no longer a nation. A nation is defined by borders.

The reason nobody wants to do anything about this is because the Business Lobby enjoys having an abundant supply of near slave-wage labor. If you look at the wages for industries such as construction and meat-packing, etc., they have gone down from $15-20/hr all the way to $8-10. Meanwhile, American jobs have been taken by those not invested in our country (the illegal aliens often send 50% or more of their money back to Mexico -- this is why the Mexican government completely supports their illegal entry into our country).

I agree with the perpetuation of criminal activity. But, in order to nip it in the bud we have to begin at the beginning. And, that is their very existence in the country illegally. If they enter illegally, everything they do afterwards has to be considered illegal, too.

I am all for immigration in this nation. I am a first generation American. My father was born in Germany and came here as a boy. But, this new generation of "immigrants" comes to this country without any respect for it or our laws. They do not assimilate into our culture, learn the language, or become "Americans." They become "Mexicans living in the US." They still root for Mexico in the World Cup, and they identify with Mexico as their permanent home. They are simply here with their hands out trying to scoop up as much as possible to send it home.

Having said that, I personally know a lot of Mexican people, have many in my family through marriage, and I speak quite a bit of Spanish. I am not racist at all. But, the way this whole thing is going down is completely wrong and nobody has the courage to do what needs to be done because of the desire to "win the Hispanic vote."

[MrAnteater]

If you are a business owner and hire illegal workers you are breaking the law. I would like to see more of these business owners prosecuted in addition to deporting the illegals.

You are not helping these people for the reasons Krav listed in the previous post. There is also a disproportionately high amount of crime from illegals. Just because they have difficulties in their own country doesn't give them the right to break the law in ours. The bible instructs us to follow our leaders and rules of government. I see no reason to circumvent the immigration laws when the amount of harm to the US is so great.

If you want to immigrate to this country legally that is fine. If you do it illegally you should be deported and the people here in this country who have supported you should be charged as an accessory to a crime.

[1of7000]

I took a business class a million years ago and vaguely recall the term "casual labor". could this concept somehow be used? i think there are limitations on it but if it can be used to satisfy legal issues might as well use it.

[Steps]

OK. Get ready for e-lyching!

What makes them 'illegal' human beings. Lets put it like this, if the State decides tomorrow to lower some or all of those restriction because they somehow see that they are economic assets, how would we perceive these people.

I wonder what the native 'Americans' felt when they were being wiped out and subdued by 'The immigrants' who now 'legal' Americans.

What exactly is America's business in Iran, North Korea, Iraq etc. They are a nation, aren't they? they have their Sovereignity, don't they?

The fact is that these people are here to make a living in the pursuit of happiness for themselves and their family. Tell you what, some of them would not need to leave their countries if Americans did not come there to take jobs from them too. In my country, many times, companies would go as far as America to hire personnels; they will get paid about 6-8 times what a citizen would be paid if he was given the job. At the end of the day, it is the citizen that will do the job because the American would not know his left from his right, would not understand the culture or the psyche of the people, yet he'll get paid. For every of such job, there are probably 500 citizen that can do that job. Now i do not blame the Americans for this. I hold my people's complex responsible. Even the American companies in my country still go back to America to hire personnel. they will pay these 'immigrant' about 8 times what they pay citizen personnel at the same level. This is what the case holds in my country. They dodge taxes like there is no tomorrow (and they use the citizens to do it). I hold my leaders responsible though. Its a very unfortunate Complex problems. But that is changing because we the younger generation know better and as we get into these places of power we will set some of these things straight. Oh we will.

The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. We draw boundries, not God. But of course America seems to consider herself god to the world, so I will not blame her citizen for their orientation. Quite in order.

That said, America has done well to organise its society. Period. If the other nations don't, or allow themselves to be bullied into slavery or imperialism thats unfortunate.

These people should at least be viewed first as humans and not just statistics. It is the same pursuit of happiness that every human being is pursuing. The same pursuit that our fathers and mothers and extended families left their German, Russian, Jewish, British lands for. If we are honest with ourselves we will admit that American economy has seen good from these people. They were the foundation of the society we now know. [The thing is that as society grows we strive to organise it. To the extent that anyone disorganises it, to that extent he falls fowl.]

These people are willing to do the job that the American would not do...at a lower pay even. Give it to them if you can. If the laws forbid you, then don't to the extent that you do not break your law. BUT THEY ARE HUMAN, to start with. The Bible refers to them as Strangers or Sojourners or Aliens. Interestingly all of us were once strangers or aliens to the grace which now enjoy in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:12, Col 1:21). It has never been the common practice of the carnal man to receive strangers as equals so its not surprising. But casting them away, except in cases where they will not subject themselves the ordinances of the land in which they sojourn, is no proper practice....according to the bible. As long as a stranger lives within your territory, and abides by the laws that govern your teriitory he is not to be oppressed or cast away. Even in the bible the stranger is paid lower wages and get less privileges, but he is respected as human being and given work.

God Bless

Ok...e-lynch may begin....

[Duane Morse]

"But casting them away, except in cases where they will not subject themselves the ordinances of the land in which they sojourn, is no proper practice....according to the bible. As long as a stranger lives within your territory, and abides by the laws that govern your teriitory he is not to be oppressed or cast away."

And that is the point, exactly!
They are here illegally. They are NOT abiding by the laws that govern.

Everything else you wrote is pure fluff, directed at simply justifying thier actions to the detriment of this country.

[Steps]

One stone....

I wonder how they made it to Here. Any way they are here since you couldn't stop them.

I also wonder what part of Here you created. I would also like to know how YOU add to this great country in the first place...and I dont mean your prayers.

How much has this country done to the detriment of the Native indians, etc (who are themselves strangers on their own soil), Iraq, Iran, Libya, Liberia, Cuba, Afghanistan,

If someone like you ever employs any immigrant to babysit for you or do anything....:hug:!!!!

[dispen4ever]

Hiring illegal aliens? Don't. There are thousands upon thousands waiting for their legal paperwork to be completed so that they can enter legally. Don't let illegals stand in their way.