A Womans Place in the New Testament?

[AHappyAtheist]

Since apparently, Old Testament Quotes aren't good enough for some of you, i will only be using NT quotes.

Mark 13:17

13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

God Hates pregnant chicks?



Luke

2:19 But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.
2:20 And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things that they had heard and seen, as it was told unto them.
2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord

So even giving birth to the SON OF GOD is defiling a woman?

2:23 (As it is written in the law of the LORD, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)

No Females are holy?

John

20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

So a woman touching Jesus would DEFILE him so he cant go to heaven? Nice.

Ephesians

5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

So Christ > Man and Man > Woman. Thats the logic being used.

1 Corinthians

11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
11:8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

Should be self explanatory.

1 Peter

3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear
3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Wives should subject themselves to their husbands, as they are weaker vessels.

2 Peter

2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

Talking about Lot, who impregnated both of his daughters in Genesis 19:30-38. Hes so righteous.

1 Timothy

2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

5:5 Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man.
5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
5:11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
5:13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

Defining a Widow.



Titus 2

2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Good woman! NOW MAKE ME A SAMMICH!

[SirTanTee]

I sense that you have some anger on this issue. I will pray for you, if you don't mind, that you will have peace of heart.

You have posted so many quotes that I don't really have time at the moment to respond to them individually. But I can see that almost all of them have been misconstrued and vastly misinterpreted. Please try to maintain respect...we are not dumb, you know. So I'll just start with some major points.

1) The Bible does state that men and women have certain roles within marriage. The man is to be the head of the household, and the woman is to be his helper. You must understand though, that this does not mean lesser. As the Bible states, the woman is like the Church and the man like Christ. As the Church, she must lift him up, respect him, aid him and follow his lead. As the Head, he must be willing to love her, guide her, and, most importantly, give up everything for her. Christ suffered tremendously and gave up his life for the Church. So too must a husband be willing to devote himself in entirety to his wife. Can you imagine the immense love that implies? Men and women are equal in the Lord's eyes; husband and wife are both to devote themselves entirely to each other. The Bible states in Galatians 3: There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

2) He direct Peter to warn husbands to give honor to his wife, to treat her as though she was the weaker vessel? Notice that Peter does not say that because she is the weaker vessel, but AS the weaker vessel, which implores each man to fulfill his duty to protect and treasure. There are entire discussions on this - you should go look them up! I'm sure they would be quite useful to you.

3)God does not hate pregnant women, that quote has been vastly twisted. read the whole passage:

"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death...When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains....How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that this will not take place in winter, because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning..."

It is merely a statement that hard times will be hard for pregnant women. Jesus himself sounds very unhappy about this terrible prospect.

4)The Bible does not undervalue women. Proverbs 31:

10 A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.
11 Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.
12 She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.
13 She selects wool and flax
and works with eager hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships,
bringing her food from afar.
15 She gets up while it is still dark;
she provides food for her family
and portions for her servant girls.
16 She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She sets about her work vigorously;
her arms are strong for her tasks.
18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
and her lamp does not go out at night.
19 In her hand she holds the distaff
and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
20 She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy.
21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for her bed;
she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
and supplies the merchants with sashes.
25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
she can laugh at the days to come.
26 She speaks with wisdom,
and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
27 She watches over the affairs of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
29 "Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all."
30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;
but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
31 Give her the reward she has earned,
and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.

That sounds like an intelligent, mind-bogglingly organized and accomplished woman to me. :lol:

[AHappyAtheist]

I sense that you have some anger on this issue. I will pray for you, if you don't mind, that you will have peace of heart.

You have posted so many quotes that I don't really have time at the moment to respond to them individually. But I can see that almost all of them have been misconstrued and vastly misinterpreted. Please try to maintain respect...we are not dumb, you know. So I'll just start with some major points.

1) The Bible does state that men and women have certain roles within marriage. The man is to be the head of the household, and the woman is to be his helper. You must understand though, that this does not mean lesser. As the Bible states, the woman is like the Church and the man like Christ. As the Church, she must lift him up, respect him, aid him and follow his lead. As the Head, he must be willing to love her, guide her, and, most importantly, give up everything for her. Christ suffered tremendously and gave up his life for the Church. So too must a husband be willing to devote himself in entirety to his wife. Can you imagine the immense love that implies? Men and women are equal in the Lord's eyes; husband and wife are both to devote themselves entirely to each other. The Bible states in Galatians 3: There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

2) He direct Peter to warn husbands to give honor to his wife, to treat her as though she was the weaker vessel? Notice that Peter does not say that because she is the weaker vessel, but AS the weaker vessel, which implores each man to fulfill his duty to protect and treasure. There are entire discussions on this - you should go look them up! I'm sure they would be quite useful to you.

3)God does not hate pregnant women, that quote has been vastly twisted. read the whole passage:

"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death...When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains....How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that this will not take place in winter, because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning..."

It is merely a statement that hard times will be hard for pregnant women. Jesus himself sounds very unhappy about this terrible prospect.

4)The Bible does not undervalue women. Proverbs 31:

10 A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.
11 Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.
12 She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.
13 She selects wool and flax
and works with eager hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships,
bringing her food from afar.
15 She gets up while it is still dark;
she provides food for her family
and portions for her servant girls.
16 She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She sets about her work vigorously;
her arms are strong for her tasks.
18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
and her lamp does not go out at night.
19 In her hand she holds the distaff
and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
20 She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy.
21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for her bed;
she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
and supplies the merchants with sashes.
25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
she can laugh at the days to come.
26 She speaks with wisdom,
and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
27 She watches over the affairs of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
29 "Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all."
30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;
but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
31 Give her the reward she has earned,
and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.


Well... You provided some good points at first, but then you went into Proverbs, which is Old Testament, and i distinctly remember you saying that the Old Testament... isnt "recent" And that if we followed it, women wouldn't wear pants, Pork would be banned, etc.

But oh well.

No i dont mind if you pray for me. Its my personal opinion that it isnt going to do anything, but i appreciate the gesture.

Ok, the weaker vessel one wasn't very strong, but read some of the other ones.

I personally think that gender roles and family roles are, excuse the language, bull****. If a man wants to stay home and take care of the children, i dont care. If a woman wants to provide for the family, sure. If they both want to go to work, like it was when i grew up, Then make sure the kids are taken care of, and go for it. If you dont want to have any children, fine with me...

I dont see why YHWH would care very much how family members provide for the family...

[SirTanTee]

Well... You provided some good points at first, but then you went into Proverbs, which is Old Testament, and i distinctly remember you saying that the Old Testament... isnt "recent" And that if we followed it, women wouldn't wear pants, Pork would be banned, etc.
But oh well.

The distinction is that the legalistic rules provided in the Old Testament no longer apply. Case in point: stoning people. Or not shaking the hand of a woman who is having her period. No longer apply. But there are some wisdoms which obviously everyone can basically carry through the ages, no matter what your belief. You know - gems like thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not covet. :wink The symbol of a strong, loving woman in Proverbs 31 is something that basically applies to any culture.

I personally think that gender roles and family roles are, excuse the language, bull****. If a man wants to stay home and take care of the children, i dont care. If a woman wants to provide for the family, sure. If they both want to go to work, like it was when i grew up, Then make sure the kids are taken care of, and go for it. If you dont want to have any children, fine with me...I dont see why YHWH would care very much how family members provide for the family...

*shrug* Different people have different opinions on that. Some Christians think the gender roles should be stricter, I myself don't see anything wrong with a woman working, a man taking care of a children some of the time, etc. It's not my place to judge what familial organization best fulfills the personal needs of a husband, wife and family. However, as Christians we believe that we must also integrate God into our marriages, and his wishes for marriage. This means sacrifice, whatever it may be, on the part of both the husband and wife.

[AHappyAtheist]

*shrug* Different people have different opinions on that. Some Christians think the gender roles should be stricter, I myself don't see anything wrong with a woman working, a man taking care of a children some of the time, etc. It's not my place to judge what familial organization best fulfills the personal needs of a husband, wife and family. However, as Christians we believe that we must also integrate God into our marriages, and his wishes for marriage. This means sacrifice, whatever it may be, on the part of both the husband and wife.


Tell me then, if you think you must integrate God into your marriages, would you marry someone of a different faith, or of no faith?

Thank you for the friend invite by the way =)

[SirTanTee]

Tell me then, if you think you must integrate God into your marriages, would you marry someone of a different faith, or of no faith?

Thank you for the friend invite by the way =)

Tell me then, if you think you must integrate God into your marriages, would you marry someone of a different faith, or of no faith?

Thank you for the friend invite by the way =)

I would consider it, but I would have to spend a lot of time thinking about it. Corinthians 6:14 clearly states: Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

(By the way, "yolked" refers more to binding, permanent relationships. This does not preclude friendships with unbelievers.) So I would be very cautious, although I wouldn't automatically dismiss someone right off the bat.

Oh you're welcome!

[Bethany67]

Mark 13:17 - an expression of God's concern for pregnant women and mothers in those days, because it's going to be VERY hard.

Luke 2 - the old covenant was still in operation, so technically you've done what you accused Sir Tan Tee of.

John 20 - He would've said the same thing to a guy on that particular day. Possibly He saw something personally in Mary that she was clinging to the old comfort of the way things were, and this was His way of saying 'Actually everything's changed now.' I sometimes think it would've been an especial challenge for those people who knew Him in his pre-death days; I bet more than one of them was wishing things could go back to just the way they were, with the travelling and the teaching, with Him physically at the head of the group.

Eph 5, 1 Cor 11, 1 Pet 3 - yup, got no problem with it. STT has done a good job of explaining about roles, which by the way are not God saying women are of lesser worth than men.

2 Pet 2 - I think Lot was a selfish wimp in love with the worldly system, personally. Look at Genesis 13 - Abraham says 'Lot, you get to choose where you want to go,' and Lot says 'Thanks - I can see the abundance of the plain of Jordan for my flocks and all those cities are there and that's where the fun and prosperity is, so I'll take that, thank you very much.'

Look at the result in Lot's life in Gen 19 - he threw himself into the surrounding pagan culture and pretty soon he thought like them. 'Want sex, you guys? Have my daughters.' He wasn't accepted by the people of the cities; they seem to have thought he considered himself superior, so he set out to try and appease them (there's a powerful spiritual lesson right there.' God didn't give up on him though - he gave him time to get himself and his family out. And look at the result for his daughters - they grew up in a sinful environment here anything went sexually and decided they'd take matters into their own hands re continuing the family line.

But we're all a mix; being righteous doesn't mean we never sin and lead a perfect life. Look at David who had a man murdered to hide an adulterous pregnancy with the man's wife. God (who has the best most informed view on it all) has declared that ultimately Lot and David were righteous but that doesn't imply approval of everything they did (which is a mistake some people make when they read things in the Bible which are a straightforward recording of events with no divine commentary); same as in our lives.

1 Tim - in that culture it was very hard to be a widow, which is why Paul counselled them to marry, especially if they were young. Marriage is the default NT position although some are given the gift of singleness.

Titus 2 - something I aspire to. My marriage isn't just about my family; it's about serving God through my dealings with my family and, as my husband isn't a Christian, it's one of the ways God says I can reach him. Them's my marching orders from the Boss :)

Mixed-faith marriages are VERY hard. Believe me, I know. I wouldn't deliberately go into one now (we were both Pagan when we married), but the spiritual union is something I do not have with my husband (and never will unless he becomes a Christian) and it's a great sadness to me.

[ServantofTruth]

I have just looked at your profile page. It says you are not intending to become Christian and are just looking to debate. This is not what Christian Answer is for.

Christian Answer is for genuine seekers, with a heart and mind feeling pulled towards Jesus Christ to learn more. To overcome barriers which they may see as impossible to get past, but we are here to help remove.

So i'm not going to use the bible for common debate. There would be no point in swopping verses with you, when at this time, you obviously don't understand what those verses you quote mean.

All i do to help you, at this time, is to say God's gift of Grace is open to women as much as men. I believe a good starting point for you will be Matthew chapter 27:34-40.

Yes i have little doubt that you already know these verses. But try pausing on verse 40. The whole bible (Old Testament included :)) - Loving God and loving others. SofTy.