I think this belongs here...

[Kaninchen]

Hello.

One of the main reasons I joined this board is to get some good advice about issues that I can't discuss (or which would be uncomfortable to discuss) with friends and family. I hope someone can advise me on what to do here.

I've known my best friend for over ten years. He is a gay male who publically came out at a very young age and has always been expressive, even flambouyant about his homosexuality. If you were to encounter him on the street even in "boy clothes" you would be able to identify him as gay most likely, although he is very masculine in his build, and physically strong and an athlete. When I first met him, I was taken when him from the start. I was mostly in awe of him because he was so different from anyone I'd encountered before. When he first met me, I was very much a good girl, and so we were both attractive to each other because we came from such different lives. However, we've always had a great deal in common.

Together, we embarked on a relationship that ended up very, very confusing. In the first year we did some sexual experimentation though we never slept together, and that ended quickly, but we have always known there are romantic and possessive overtones to the relationship. Things have been very emeshed and entangled from the get-go. We used to fight frequently and have huge emotional upheaval over very small factors, and that sometimes resulted in physical violence. We would have a screaming match, someone would break something, and then we would reaffirm that we loved each other and all was perfect, and we'd act like the argument had never happened. Obviously, it was unhealthy in many ways. Things got weirder the more "out" he became, as he moved into the world of drag and started defining his identity through transvestism. His messages were always conflicted. One day, he would bemoan the fact that I had spoken to some guy on the street, like he was a jealous lover, and the next day he would want to borrow my bras so he could go onstage at a gay club dressed as a woman.

A few years ago, I moved and got my own apartment in a city over 300 miles from him. At first, I could barely function. I'd grown up depending on him to define my identity, and if I wasn't a part of "Lily & M" I didn't know who I was. There was no independent "me". However, I came to realise that we didn't have a satisfying, fun friendship so much as we were drowning people clinging to each other, each drowning the other with our needs. I also felt used, because I felt he had often flirted with me and acted kind only to receive my support. Sometimes, I felt like a trophy. He would show me off to friends like a doll, saying how pretty I was, how smart. At first that felt nice but soon I realised he was trying to improve his own image through me. Anyway, by moving, I got myself more together. He also improved a lot, but he is still something of a user. He will call in the wee hours and demand I come see him, and he gets upset when I go abroad because I'm not available for him. Sometimes, he seems like he is testing me, wanting to prove to himself I'll slip up and "prove" I don't love him. For the last year, or so, I stopped responding to those calls and things got better.

Two weeks ago, I moved to a new area in a different state from him. He's been calling, claiming to be distraught, that he needs to be see me and such. I want our friendship to continue because I care for him and consider him valuable, but in the last few years I've found his lifestyle depressing. His homosexuality doesn't bother me, it's just that he seems to fake sometimes, and the friends he has are very artificial and catty. He is elitist and condescending at times, but if I call him on it, he doesn't seem to understand. Also, I am going to a Catholic school and attending chapel and mass more regularly, as well as doing some Bible reading. He looks down on all that, as I used to. I'm just not sure how to keep the friendship going or how much effort it will take. I'd really like advice from anyone who has some to offer.

[Bethany67]

Maybe the friendship has run its course? I've noticed some similar things in friendships with gay guys when I was younger; it was as if they were using the friendship to explore their feelings about women and whether they could ever be attracted to them, and often it would get pretty nasty. I remember one in particular where we both subconsciously viewed me as a 'functional saviour.' He used to call me a 'fag hag.'

I hung around on the gay scene, went along to marches etc, and there are some pretty horrible anti-women attitudes from some of the gay guys I've known, even in my non-Christian days when I was pro-homosexuality. I have gay male and female friends now but there is none of that sexual possessive undertone. It's just friendship.

I suspect your friendship would change irrevocably if you started dating a guy.

[CoffeeCat]

I had an experience when I was younger that I'm willing to share. Before I was a Christian, I used to identify as bisexual, and I had more than a couple gay male friends. One in particular also identified as bisexual (and still does, as far as I'm aware) and he wanted to use our friendship to figure out whether or not he liked men more, or women more. A huge part of me knew that was wrong -- I had "uncomfortable!! wrong!!" sirens going off in my head. I let him know that I valued his friendship, but I couldn't and wouldn't be a part of some "experiment". I didn't want to feel used, I didn't want to use him, nothing about it felt right.

Other gay male friends seemed to want my friendship, but they also wanted to use the friendship as an opportunity to ACT more flamboyantly, if that makes sense -- because I was accepting of the lifestyle at the time, and I was a flaming liberal (in other words for our international readers, very open to anything/permissive of anything) these guys felt they could be "one of the girls" around me. It didn't bother me at first.... but something about it started to feel wrong.

My conviction about the whole lifestyle grew more and more -- and when I met my boyfriend, I was still an agnostic secular humanist, but I'd adopted a wariness of the lifestyle... the warning bells going off were making me less comfortable with it, and of my own role within it. Two things happened. The first is that God, in His mercy, gave me a heart for one man alone and gave me a focus that told me I KNEW I couldn't identify as bisexual. And this was before I was saved. I just got the conviction that I was with a great guy, and that to continue to identify in such a confused way would keep eating me alive, not to mention would tear our relationship apart. Not long after... I came to Christ myself.... and it was night and day. I realized that yes, I DID have these feelings and would maybe always struggle with them... but my identity was IN CHRIST, not as anything else. God continued to work on my heart and deliver me of a LOT of the struggle. The rest, any that remains now, is pushed to the back of my mind daily, with His help alone. I consider myself a straight woman who loves men -- specifically, one man. More to the point, I consider myself a Christian, a sinner entirely saved by grace alone. I've truly been given a renewal over the 4+ years I've been a Christian, and I thank God for it daily. I thank God that my boyfriend and I are now BOTH with Him -- he recently came to Christ, and let me know that in part, it was because God showed Himself through an example I set. I'm not bragging when I say that. I'm humbled by it. I realize that the way I act, the way I live, the testimony I give.... it affects others. It either draws them TO Christ, or pushes them away. And that's a sobering thought.

Something else happened, though. When I started going out with my boyfriend, I lost quite a few of my gay "friends". I realized that they'd only been TRULY comfortable with me as long as I identified as "one of them" -- when I let them know that I was seeing someone, and that I was not identifying with that lifestyle anymore, some chose to drop me like a hot potato. One guy, I did stay friends with. We've known each other for nine years, and he's genuinely a nice guy.... but he told me he was absolutely BEWILDERED that I could STOP identifying as bisexual, and had come to Christ and focused on Him instead. He didn't and still doesn't "get that", but over time he says he's come to respect it. He's even said he wishes he could "have that" himself.

My encouragement for you, Kaninchen, is to focus on who you are in Christ and be that light to your friend. If he's willing to be a TRUE friend, then he'll be willing to talk about your faith, to watch you grow in Christ. The friendship with this guy might have indeed run its course; God will help you figure that out. No matter what, keep praying for discernment, and for your friend.

I'll be praying for you, too. :hug:

[Kaninchen]

I've noticed some similar things in friendships with gay guys when I was younger; it was as if they were using the friendship to explore their feelings about women and whether they could ever be attracted to them, and often it would get pretty nasty.

That's exactly how this relationship felt for a long time. When I was 19 and had an apartment with two other girls, he essentially moved it, at least he spent most of his time there and stayed almost every night in my room. He would want to share the bed and hold me or be held, but if I asked what it meant he would insist it was non-sexual. He also claimed that wanting to sit and chat with me while I bathed was nonsexual, but it's pretty obvious when someone is looking at you in a sexual way, as he did. Whenever I said anything about that though, he would act like I was crazy and point out, sometimes cruelly, that he was gay, liked men, and would never like me that way. Then he would want to kiss me in public when we went out, "for fun" as he put it, and he got really jealous of someone asked me to dance or asked for my number, but again, if I hinted towards romantic feelings he would say I was being silly and misunderstood him. Actually, I guess a lot of that stuff still happens. If I visit him, even now, he'll insist I stay at his place and share his room, and he'll act romantic and such, but if I talk about what he is doing or claim to be confused, it's like the spell is broken. It's almost like he has romantic feelings for me but is ashamed to admit them! I've just gotten better at not calling him on it, and not seeing him as much.

I hung around on the gay scene, went along to marches etc, and there are some pretty horrible anti-women attitudes from some of the gay guys I've known

I've participated in these things as well, though it's been a while for me obvious. I definitely noticed the negativity. When M and I are alone, or with old friends both of us know, he is usually great. He dotes on me. More than once he's called me his Barbie doll and he has treated me like that often. However, he has a group of friends who work at the bar with him and who are really overtly out there with their lifestyles and also very anti-women. It's as though they are not satisfied making it clear women are not physically attractive to them, they actually say really derogatory and gross stuff. Like, they will make jokes at the expense of the female body. It makes me uncomfortable and even though M doesn't usually engage in that talk around me, he's obviously accepting it since these people are his friends.

I have to say, my problem is that I miss the good parts of our friendship. I'd like to find a way to keep just those and lose the immaturity and egotism that seems to be such a part of his personality now. Usually I am very giving, but I don't want to be used, and yet because of the ways he has disregarded my feelings in the past I don't know how to approach this. I feel obligated to remain friends with him no matter what and he guilt trips me if I act as though I'm leaving him (big crying phone call the other day over me making the move to Wisconsin). I'm not sure what to do.

My encouragement for you, Kaninchen, is to focus on who you are in Christ and be that light to your friend. If he's willing to be a TRUE friend, then he'll be willing to talk about your faith, to watch you grow in Christ. The friendship with this guy might have indeed run its course; God will help you figure that out. No matter what, keep praying for discernment, and for your friend.

I'll be praying for you, too.

Oh Coffee, thank you so much for sharing that!

I've never identified as bisexual, although for a short time every single one of my friends were either gay or bi and pressured me to "accept" that I was bi as well. It disconcerted a lot of the friends I met through M that I was straight, but most of them have accepted that because I almost never date and have only had a handful of relationships. A long-term friend and I tried dating some last spring and summer, which was lovely for a while but then destroyed the great friendship we'd had. M lost it, refused to speak to this person, got angry, made a lot of sarcastic remarks about me being too busy for him, etc. Obviously, a heterosexual relationship made him and some of my other friends very uncomfortable. It's as though they thought I wouldn't love them anymore because I wasn't doing what they were doing, even though I have always been very loving and accepting. I'm still a lot more tolerant than most. There are so many elements from your experience that I've shared too. The gay friends I have do act very out around me, but during the short time I was dating, I scarcely saw any of them.

The thing I'm really worried about is, I really don't think he's a true friend given the way you described one. He seems very needy and desperate a lot of the time, and I don't honestly believe he wants someone to see as an equal or to give too much too. Our friendship has lessened in that we don't see each other constantly as we used to. That's good, I like it like this, but I just don't want to lose him. I think we still depend on each other too much though I realise it's probably in ways that are very unhealthy.

[karenoka27]

Hi. I'd like to remind each of us that this is a Christian message board. When we share here, we are doing so as to encourage one another in our walk with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

You have not mentioned your relationship with the Lord, so I don't know where He stands in your life. You need to seek Him for strength and guidance and direction. You need to let our God show you who He created you to be.
It is an exciting journey to allow Him to show you the purpose in which He has for you.

Psalm 139:14-15- I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place.When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,.."

[ServantofTruth]

Hi. I'd like to remind each of us that this is a Christian message board. When we share here, we are doing so as to encourage one another in our walk with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

You have not mentioned your relationship with the Lord, so I don't know where He stands in your life. You need to seek Him for strength and guidance and direction. You need to let our God show you who He created you to be.
It is an exciting journey to allow Him to show you the purpose in which He has for you.

Psalm 139:14-15- I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place.When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,.."

If ever a post was needed!!!!!

Your original post, in my opinion, certainly shows that you Need Advice. Let's not beat about the bush Homosexuality/ Lesbianism are against God's Will - sin. I'll give you one of many places where the Word of God/ the bible tells us this, Romans chapter 1: 26-27.

So firstly we need to ask - Do you agree with God's stated position on homosexuality?

Now i don't know how long you have been a Christian, and how much of what you say was before you found faith. But looking forward, this man, everyone you meet in life (witness your Christian faith to) has to know clearly that you believe God's stated position on homosexuality.

Actually they need to know your Christian position on many things. Like men dressing as women and women as men - which the bible speak on.

---------------------------------------------------------

Now you may not be aware that this is a Protestant forum and certain Catholic ideas and ways of worship are considered unbiblical? You say you are attending Catholic school - may i ask (and obviously you don't have to answer) do you mean Roman Catholic or Anglican or something else?

You also say you are doing 'some bible reading.' I myself am from an Anglican upbringing (catholic with a small 'c'). We never opened a bible at home, despite my father being a reader/ lay preacher and bible study never happened at church. The same is true today at my mother's catholic church and i know many catholics who are told reading the bible is the priests job and not to worry - infact are discouraged if they suggest it, some even told it is wrong.

My advise is get into the bible every day for the rest of your life. God's Will/ Wisdom is there. Everything he wants us to know in this life/ body. If it's not there God doesn't want us wasting time argueing over it, because he considers it unimportant for his children at this time.

I hope i don't come across as critical or hard. But being a Christian is not some wishy - washy half belief. It is a matter of life and death. Paradise or Hell. Eternity with God, or Eternity seperated from God.

We don't think we're Christian. We know it. We aren't allowed to decide issues like homosexuality ourselves - when God has clearly stated his position. I admit i have concerns for your faith and for your biblical understanding.

What is most important to me, right now - is how is Your walk with our Lord Jesus Christ? When that is right, you will know how to act towards your friend - as the bible teaches you God's Wisdom. If the same Holy Spirit lives in you, as in me, and all believers - you will be led to truth, God's truth.

The most worrying thing you have written so far is 'his homosexuality doesn't bother me.' Well it bothers God and it bothers ME. SofTy.

[Kaninchen]

Let's not beat about the bush Homosexuality/ Lesbianism are against God's Will - sin. I'll give you one of many places where the Word of God/ the bible tells us this, Romans chapter 1: 26-27.

So firstly we need to ask - Do you agree with God's stated position on homosexuality?

That is a really difficult question for me to answer. I was an atheist for a long time, and one of my major issues with living a Christian life is accepting absolutism and the concept of sin. I do believe that homosexuality is a sin in God's eyes, because that comes across quite clearly in the Bible. And I understand that, because I see the stereotypical promiscuous gay lifestyle, which this particular friend lives to a tee, as problematic and harmful. So yes, I agree it's a sin, and I agree it can be harmful. Still, I'm a liberal sort and feel awkward trying to tell other people they can't live as they see fit, and I genuinely believe true love can exist between same sex couples. That's an unclear answer and I'm sorry for that, but it's the truth.

Now i don't know how long you have been a Christian, and how much of what you say was before you found faith.

I've been a Christian less than six months, but I was raised is a Christian home and attended church as a young person, so I'm familiar with it. I've just never seen it from the inside like now.

Most of my relationship with "M" was well before I came to Christ.

But looking forward, this man, everyone you meet in life (witness your Christian faith to) has to know clearly that you believe God's stated position on homosexuality.

Actually they need to know your Christian position on many things. Like men dressing as women and women as men - which the bible speak on.

My problem is, I have a hard time reconciling these behaviours with sin because they seem harmless to me. A little silly, yes, and sometimes dangerous in terms of if they provoke homophobia and violence, but I just don't feel it's a big deal for a guy to walk around in a dress if that's what makes him happy.

I do speak to my friends about my opinions in a gentle way. When I see them flitting from partner to partner, never finding happiness, living superficially, being miserable, risking physical illness through STDs, I feel obligated to tell them that I think it's wrong and that they would be so much better acting differently. But I'm very new to being a believer and also in the habit of looking at that lifestyle as unhealthy, but normal. I treat gay friends like I treat friends who smoke. I don't do it myself, and sometimes remind them of the risks they are running and occasionally ask questions that hopefully make them think of alternatives, but that's the limit. For M in particular, I know full well he'll tune me out if I chatter on about how being promiscuous is dangerous. He knows, and doesn't want to face it. He won't listen to me about smoking either, but refrains when he is in my home or my car. That's all I feel I have the right to expect. I would like to become comfortable enough to talk to my friends about God, but I don't want to drive them away. When I was an atheist, a lot of people drove me away and made me feel inferior and defensive. It prolonged the atheism and deepened the resentment. I'm scared of that.

Now you may not be aware that this is a Protestant forum and certain Catholic ideas and ways of worship are considered unbiblical? You say you are attending Catholic school - may i ask (and obviously you don't have to answer) do you mean Roman Catholic or Anglican or something else?

It's a Roman Catholic college, specifically run by the Sisters of St Francis. However, education wise it's more a liberal school and also highly feminist (all women's college). Religious education isn't really evident here. Chapel is optional and there are courses in Catholic theology and world religions, but they aren't mandatory.

My mom grew up in the Catholic church but I did not have much exposure to it until just recently. My parents took me to a Christian Reformed church when I was little. Now, my mom is more Orthodox and goes to a Russian Orthodox church, and my dad believes in a personal God but isn't really a Christian anymore.

What is most important to me, right now - is how is Your walk with our Lord Jesus Christ? When that is right, you will know how to act towards your friend - as the bible teaches you God's Wisdom. If the same Holy Spirit lives in you, as in me, and all believers - you will be led to truth, God's truth.

Hmm...beginning? I'm afraid that once in a while I try to meet Jesus openly, but I also spend a lot of time with my back turned and my ears covered. I didn't set out to become a Christian. I know a lot of Christians believe atheists are an unhappy lot, but I wasn't. I liked it. I was satisfied with that. Belief came to me, not the other way around. I guess that is what is meant by God touching your heart or calling you. Sometimes I feel a lot more ambitious about discovering truth and meaning through the Bible than I do at other times.

[ServantofTruth]

I spend a lot of time around catholics in real life. I also spend a lot of time on this site in Christian Answer with seekers, and also in New in Christ and Maturing in Christ.

You get a feeling for where someone is in life and where a post belongs.

In my opinion - and you correct me if you believe i am wrong - from everything you have posted on this topic, you have a belief in a God and you want to be a good person.

But you have not come to believe yet, in the one true God (YHWH) of the bible, or to submit to his Wisdom/ Will given to us there.

I believe this topic belongs in Christian Answer and the advice/ answers i would give you - have already given on this topic - are in line with how i need to reply in that forum to seekers/ non believers.

I don't mean to insult you, i say this in love. The help you need, is so basic. May God bless your bible reading and guide your life. SofTy.

[SeekingHisWill]

The obvious confusion and pain and just how convoluted this whole situation with your M-friend sounds to be... tells me homosexuality is wrong. It reminds me of the Tower of Babel. How man used something God-given in the story - the building - built for worship and to praise God, for their own glory and in seeing this God confused their languages and scattered the people creating confusion and chaos among the people.

Your situation comes across the same to me. While God created MAN and subsequently saw that it wasn't right for man to be alone and made a helper for him and called her WOMAN - NOT "woman (but another man could be substituted in her place)". Your friend is using what God made for good... for his own glory. His "sin", similar to whatever each of our painful sin might be (for some it's porn, for others it's rage, for others it's gossip, etc.) is something he should overcome. However, he's revealing in it. And I just see his life and those who chose to accept his sin and live it with him falling into that confused state... the chaos.

I realize you feel for your friend. I feel for my friends who fall victim to sin as well. But it sounds to me like your friend has a lot of past damage done inside. Damage that a lot of heterosexual people are walking around with. Neediness, codependency, possibly bi-polar, etc. even beyond his "sin" he should work through those things. You should NOT feel guilty for living your life or dating or not wanting your confused homosexual friend to watch you bathe!

I will be praying for you and asking our Lord to remove you from this confusion - in whatever way HE sees is best!

:pray:

[Sold Out]

Th

Hmm...beginning? I'm afraid that once in a while I try to meet Jesus openly, but I also spend a lot of time with my back turned and my ears covered. I didn't set out to become a Christian. I know a lot of Christians believe atheists are an unhappy lot, but I wasn't. I liked it. I was satisfied with that. Belief came to me, not the other way around. I guess that is what is meant by God touching your heart or calling you. Sometimes I feel a lot more ambitious about discovering truth and meaning through the Bible than I do at other times.

The thing about meeting Jesus is that ultimately He is going to ask you to make some choices about the baggage you have brought into your Christianity.

First and foremost....your dear friend needs to be saved. Gay, straight, whatever...he needs Christ, and you might be the only person who can communicate the saving grace of Jesus Christ to him.

It's completely understandable that you have feelings and attachment to him. He was a very large part of your life for a long time. I think you make a very proactive choice to move away. Now you need to be honest with him and tell him why...that Christ has changed your heart and that you need to share with him what you now have.

[Ravenwspr]

its ok to love people, dont have to love what they are into, but its ok to love the person