Pro-choice scripture?

[Hobbes91]

Hi, I am pro-life, but I found a Christian using these verses to justify pro-choice. They seem really vauge and I don't really get it. For example, in the first one it says her child "departs" from her meaning what exactly? Does the baby die?

Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23

The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.
And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6

Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.

Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16

God sometimes approves of killing fetuses.

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
(Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)
Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14

Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16

Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16

God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.

Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14

God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives.

The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...

And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28

God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.

Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24

[Tanya~]

Hi Hobbes,

Let's deal with one at a time, it will be easier okay? :) Pick the one that's most important to you right now, and we can discuss it. Then we can move to the next most important one, and so on. That way you won't get replies that have mountains and mountains of text trying to explain each one.

[crossnote]

Hi, I am pro-life, but I found a Christian using these verses to justify pro-choice. They seem really vauge and I don't really get it. For example, in the first one it says her child "departs" from her meaning what exactly? Does the baby die?

There are way too many of these quotes for me to answer one by one. Most have quacky logic, but none if you notice give permission for man to abort a child and most involve involuntariness on the part of the mother whereas today abortion is supposed to be 'a choice'.

Just looking at the first one...

"Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life. "

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23

In this case 'if there is no mischief' (pre mature birth) due to striving with a pregnant woman the offender must pay some sort of restitution to the husband. If mischief follows (death of the preborn) then that man must forfeit his life.
This definitely does not support abortion.

[Bethany67]

"Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons."

I guess they didn't read Psalm 139 then.

[Elouise]

First off it is intresting that the Hebrew Bible [OT] is being used by a Christian and not the NT.

Exodus 21. The interpretation is that a man hurt a woman in such a way as to cause an ineveitable abortion [miscarriage] it does not mean a man who procures an abortian [manual termination of prgenancy by drugs or other means]
The first is an accidental death and unless it also causes the death of the mother from say exsangunaition, post-peural infections and similar it should be treated as such.

Leviticus. The allowence of four weeks post partum is compatable with the current time frame of neo-natal deaths [upto four weeks after birth] so allows for neo-natal deaths of which there would have been a considerable amount. To say this is because the word of God does not value life is to fail to understand that hebrew laws allowed for the grief of parents whose new baby died and did not seek to burden them with additional costs.

Numbers and other places in the Hebrew Bible place emphasis on patriarchy hence the every male phrase. If a baby boy survived the first four week sof life back then they had a chance of surviving the first year of life.

Numbers 31 refers back to an inherited sin that had not been repented of.
16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
It was a sad consequence of that sin; before Christ the consequence of sin was quite simply death sometimes literally.

There does seem to be a use of scripture taken out of the context it is sited in and therefore the meaning becomes twisted.

Of the rabbinical papers I have studied so far the current consences amongst Hebrew Rabbis is that it is permissable to terminate a pregannacy ONLY if continuing the pregnancy would cause the mother to die and therefore the baby with her. An example of this would be pre-eclampsia, HELLP, APH, cardiac problems in the mother and similar.

The same ruling does not seem to apply if the baby has a life threatening or life incompatible abnormality as it is seen that God gives and takes away life because God is God and his ways are not our ways.

I suspect that this person may have misread the Jewish rulings on abortion. Under Jewish law medical termination to protect the life of the mother is not judged as murder for if this was judged as murder then if would be impossible to save the life of the mother by ending pregnancy even in cases of say a 34/40 week gestation baby being delivered by elective c/sec to a mother who had pre-eclampsia.
HOWEVER the active seeking of destruction of a child in-utero is not acting to save the life of the mother crosses the line before God.

I think you may find this scholarly article of help in understanding the Hebrew pov on this contested subject.
http://caae.phil.cmu.edu/Cavalier/Forum/abortion/background/judaism1.html
Hope that is of help.

[ServantofTruth]

The more i study the Word of God and try to submit in all areas, not just those my upbringing makes easier, the less i like the bible being used for debate or to support man made agendas.

Not refering to this topic specifically, but much more generally - the reason we have Christians divided and argueing with eachother, forming organisations and joining churches that support one side of any arguement against another - is not because they love scripture/ God's Will, rather that they want to search scripture to support a position they already hold.

All of us must reverse the process, differcult that it is - i know from bitter experience - and daily search the scriptures for God's Will/ Wisdom and submit totally to it.

A valuable lesson many need to learn as well - is when God has not clearly expressed an opinion, we must not suggest he supports us, by vague scriptures in the rough area. Yes we musy diligently search to help us get as close to God's Will as possible, but it verges on sin to state our position as a God given one.

As this is a New in Christ topic, i would suggest studying the scriptures daily and listening very hard to those with an opposing view - who are willing to present their position with scriptures.

When you want to present your position - remember as a Christian this will in fact be God's position as closely as you can understand it through scripture/ the bible - and anything God has not said, that you wish to add, i would recommend you clearly state this is your opinion and NOT God's expressed Will/ Wisdom.

The reason i say this is because if more of us did this, there would very quickly be less factions, organisations, groups and more unity in Christ's family/ church.

God's bible does not divide us/ only our man made positions. SofTy.

[Tanya~]

Looking at the first one:


Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23

This is not a description of a murder or of an abortion. You have men fighting, and a woman somehow gets in the middle of it and gets hurt. She loses the baby. Nobody intended to kill the baby; it was an accident. Even killing a grown man accidentally doesn't call for the death penalty (e.g., Num 35:11).

With an abortion, the woman and a doctor conspire together to destroy the life of the baby on purpose. It's a completely different matter.

Hobbes, can you see that this is not a description of an abortion?

[Tanya~]

Please let's keep this on topic and remember that we are in the New in Christ forum. :) Thank you! This subject can quickly become too controversial and I would like for us to be able to answer all of Hobbes' questions before the thread has to be closed. Your cooperation is greatly appreciated!

[Krav]

Hi, I am pro-life, but I found a Christian using these verses to justify pro-choice. They seem really vauge and I don't really get it. For example, in the first one it says her child "departs" from her meaning what exactly? Does the baby die?

The first passage deals with premature birth, but not death of the baby (no mischief follow).

In that case he was to be punished. But, if the baby died he was to die. To me, that equates his life with the baby's life.

[Krav]

The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.
And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6 To me, the "one month" mark is being used as a figure of speech for the youngest state.

Are they really trying to say we can kill our children AFTER THEY ARE BORN as long as they are not a month old? Is this how low they are stooping?

[Hobbes91]

Hi Hobbes,

Let's deal with one at a time, it will be easier okay? :) Pick the one that's most important to you right now, and we can discuss it. Then we can move to the next most important one, and so on. That way you won't get replies that have mountains and mountains of text trying to explain each one.

Hi Tanya,

none of them are all that important to me because I don't use Scripture to argue pro-life, but the ones that interest me the most are the last three where it appears God punishes unborn children for their mothers' sins?

First off it is intresting that the Hebrew Bible [OT] is being used by a Christian and not the NT.

What pro-life scripture is in the NT? Thanks, I will read this:

http://caae.phil.cmu.edu/Cavalier/Forum/abortion/background/judaism1.html

[apothanein kerdos]

Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23


There are two ways at looking at this. First and foremost, the Hebrew simply says "departs." This gives the idea of premature birth. In fact, the word used here (yatsa) isn't the Hebrew word for miscarriage and isn't used anywhere else in the OT to mean miscarriage. In fact, there is another Hebrew word for miscarriage (shakol) that could have been used.

Secondly, even if this passage does mean "miscarry" it is referring to an accidental death. In OT Law an accidental death does not require a 'life for a life.' The mischief could be interpreted to mean if the man continues after the woman in violence, then his life is to be given.

The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.
And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6

Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.

Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16

This is due to high mortality rates. Most children wouldn't have lasted past the 1 month mark, thus children after one month are to be counted because they are more viable.

God sometimes approves of killing fetuses.

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
(Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)
Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14

Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16

Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16

God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.

Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14

God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives.

The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...

And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28


All of this, however, acts as a judgment against the woman. In all instances harm is done to her. Likewise, there is a view of corporate judgement in the OT where the sins of one member of the family brings judgement upon all members of the family. In either case, the death of the child is viewed as a punishment - if the child were not really human, how would this be a punishment?

God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.

Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24

This is a narrative on Judah's sinful actions, not on God's commandments.

[Tanya~]

Hi Tanya,

none of them are all that important to me because I don't use Scripture to argue pro-life, but the ones that interest me the most are the last three where it appears God punishes unborn children for their mothers' sins?

Okay, let's look at them:

God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.

Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14Someone who is using this to argue for abortion is pulling the old "red herring" on you. God's judgment that takes a life cannot be compared to an abortion, where a woman makes a decision to kill her own baby, and then hires someone to do it for her. They're trying to change the subject on you to justify abortion using a verse that has nothing to do with abortion.


God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives.

The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...

And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28 Hm, I'm not convinced God is causing an abortion. Rather, it appears that she is made to be infertile. But here again, a woman isn't seeking the death of her own child, so it can't be compared to abortion or used as if God approves of women seeking and doctors performing abortions.


God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.

Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24This isn't God's law, but her father-in-law's judgment on her. Read the context and you'll see. Often when people compile lists of Bible passages for the purpose of making some point, they don't consider the context of the passages. As a new Christian this is something you'll want to learn early on... always consider the context whenever someone is using Scripture for any reason, whether it be teaching, preaching, or trying to prove things.

[Hobbes91]

Okay, let's look at them:
Someone who is using this to argue for abortion is pulling the old "red herring" on you. God's judgment that takes a life cannot be compared to an abortion, where a woman makes a decision to kill her own baby, and then hires someone to do it for her. They're trying to change the subject on you to justify abortion using a verse that has nothing to do with abortion.
The purpose of showing that God "aborted" a baby is to show that God does things we consider immoral and God is supposed to be our role model. Why does God doing it make it OK?

Hm, I'm not convinced God is causing an abortion. Rather, it appears that she is made to be infertile. But here again, a woman isn't seeking the death of her own child, so it can't be compared to abortion or used as if God approves of women seeking and doctors performing abortions.It does say her womb swells, what else could that mean?

This isn't God's law, but her father-in-law's judgment on her. Read the context and you'll see. Often when people compile lists of Bible passages for the purpose of making some point, they don't consider the context of the passages. As a new Christian this is something you'll want to learn early on... always consider the context whenever someone is using Scripture for any reason, whether it be teaching, preaching, or trying to prove things.Does that mean reading the whole chapter? How can I better understand the context?

[Elouise]

A womans womb can swell due to infection; a consequence of some STD's and therefore a consequence of sin.
There are fibroids, cancers, abcessess and so forth even severe malnutrition that can cause an abdomen to distend that mimic the shape of pregnancy but the woman will not be pregnant.

[Tanya~]

The purpose of showing that God "aborted" a baby is to show that God does things we consider immoral and God is supposed to be our role model. Why does God doing it make it OK?

Think about the reasons God would cause a death vs. the reasons a woman has an abortion. Can the two really be compared? God is not us; He is perfect. When He judges, it is done in righteousness. When a woman destroys her own baby it is not because of righteous judgment. It is for any number of other reasons, none of which can be compared to God's righteousness. We don't have the right to do whatever God does because we are not God. We are accountable to do what He tells us to do, but we don't have the right to destroy an innocent life.


It does say her womb swells, what else could that mean?

Disease.


Does that mean reading the whole chapter? How can I better understand the context?

To understand the context, you need to read the whole story. Try it, it really isn't so bad. This story is a record of something that happened. It's not instruction from God; you'll see that if you read it. It's just something that Judah, one of Jacob's sons did.

You can go to Biblegateway.com and read Genesis 38 there (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gen%2038;&version=51;).

Some parts of the Bible are God's instructions, and some are a record of things that people did on their own.

[Hobbes91]

Ok, I 've used Biblegateway before. You make good points, I don't think God's reasons for doing things are always the same reasons we would do things and there are just some acts we can't understand because we are different. That's one thing I've had trouble understanding like why God does certain things, but I don't feel as bad about them anymore.

Thanks for the info, ELouise.

[Romulus]

Hi Hobbes. The first argument that a human "fetus" is not human life is refuted in Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 1:5

Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you.

Life does not have a starting point at 3 months or 1 month or even conception. Life, all life begins in the mind of God. The scripture above states that God knew us before he even formed us in the womb. Life begins with God and not by human will. Man cannot create life, only God can. The womb is God's vessel where life is revealed but our creation was determined long before, dare I say it even before creation! God loved the world even before He created it.

Nonetheless, life begins before conception. Even if we do not look at it scripturally the fact is that if nothing is done to the womb from conception forward, a living baby will emerge in 9 months. Nothing can refute that. Barring miscarriage and other occurrences, only with human intervention or abortion will that life cease before the actual birth. Any interuption of the natural process is murder because something was done to prevent the natural occurence of life to emerge.

Simply ask anyone who believes abortion is a choice if they were in the womb right now, would they feel the same way? Would they give the choice of themselves living or dying to another person? What if they were an inconvenience? or deformed, or any other birth defect, does anyone have the right to determine if they are living?

Life begins before conception, any intervention to stop that process is murder.

Pray that our very own holocaust will end in our lifetime. :pray:

Before we were born, God loved us.

[RoadWarrior]

Hi, I am pro-life, but I found a Christian using these verses to justify pro-choice. They seem really vauge and I don't really get it. For example, in the first one it says her child "departs" from her meaning what exactly? Does the baby die?

Hi Hobbes,

I'm glad to hear that you are pro-life. So am I. You might find many people who call themselve Christians, yet they still hold to worldly views on some subjects. Often such persons will take scriptures out of context to "prove" their view.

I agree with the suggestion that you read the stories in context, so that you get a better understanding of the meaning.

Anyway, I wanted to say something important to you ... keep in mind that Christians are at all different places in their growth in the Lord. Not all will have the right answers for your questions.