Speaking in tounges [Archive] - BibleForums Christian Message Board and Forums

Literalist-Luke

Sep 4th 2008, 05:10 AM

Personally I was grown up in a baptist church and we were thought to it as wrong. I really dont know why. and as far as I know ( and I might be ENTIRELY wrong ) but...

They believe that God is speaking through them ( hence the reason for the mumbling ) then some one can interpret it?

Thoughts?

Edit: im not underestimating Gods power im just saying.. why would he do that? I mean i believe he can speak through a pastor teaching a sermon... but lets just talk in gibberish? what the heck?OK, first, just a friendly little hint, - it could get you into some trouble. It is, after all, a Christian site.

As for the speaking in tongues issue itself, I was also raised as a Southern Baptist (but I attend a non-denominational church, for various reasons), so I can relate to the point of view that's been hammered into you.

I would argue that speaking in tongues was specifically intended as a sign to the Jews regarding Jesus, and once the destruction of the Temple took place in 70 AD, tongues ceased.

However, people who believe that speaking in tongues is real today will not be told otherwise and they will continue to train themselves in the "whostolamyhonda-untielamybowtie" routine, no matter what you say.

What I'm ultimate driving at is this: You're going to have to make up your own mind. What it ultimately comes down to is this: Is Christianity a matter of faith (that doesn't require tongues to prove God is real)? Or is Christianity a matter of experience (where God is obligated to "prove" Himself by taking over your mouth on occasion and "causing" you to utter gibberish that somebody else conveniently "translates", normally into something that is so general that it has no meaning, or a prophecy that fails to materialize)?

I've made my position clear, those of you who disagree I'm sure will not be swayed, because you need your "tongues" high every Sunday morning, so I will now leave InSchoolStudy to make an individual decision.....:D

1of7000

Sep 4th 2008, 07:32 AM

LL acknowledges both extremes when discussing tongues. and offers good advice in that you will have to figure it out for yourself.

but somewhere between "it's wrong I refuse" and "what are they doing ?!?!?!:o" is the truth. S.I.T. is as real today as the day of Pentecost but God's way is to see it done decently and in order,continually in our lives. It's not a Sunday pregame show nor has it gone out of date.

you have opened up a can of worms here so stand by. god'sgirl should be showing up and she has a good handle on the manifestation. there's another guy whose pretty adamanant about no SIT for you. he acts like someone crapped in his cornflakes but IDK.

so sit back relax crack open a cold one and let the games begin. (fade to olympics fanfare)

Literalist-Luke

Sep 4th 2008, 08:02 AM

There's another guy whose pretty adamanant about no SIT for you. he acts like someone crapped in his cornflakes but IDK.

so sit back relax crack open a cold one and let the games begin. (fade to olympics fanfare):lol: Thanks for the chuckle, regardless of one's position. :lol:

1of7000

Sep 4th 2008, 08:08 AM

just for clarity i think your corn flakes should taste fine, there is another guy i had in mind

livingword26

Sep 4th 2008, 10:34 AM

I myself do not speak in tongues, but I pelieve that Paul is pretty clear on the subject. I can't find any reason, in the bible, why tongues are no longer a gift of the Spirit. The only reasoning I have come accross relates to the following verse:

1Co 13:8-12
(8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
(9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
(10) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(11) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
(12) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

But we have not seen God face to face yet, so this verse is still yet to be fullfilled.

1Co 13:1
(1) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1Co 14:18
(18) I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

1Co 14:39
(39) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

1Co 14:5
(5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh, with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

wondercoolguy

Sep 4th 2008, 12:02 PM

Sold Out

Sep 4th 2008, 09:06 PM

livingword26

Sep 4th 2008, 09:10 PM

Daily Tongues are incorrect

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Paul clearly teaches that there are unknown tongues, and he also distinguishes between tongues of men and tongues of angels. There are clearly tongues that cannot be understood without the Spirit interpreting.

1Co 14:18-19
(18) I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
(19) Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

1Co 13:1
(1) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

In Acts when Peter is preaching the bible clearly says that he spake and every man heard in his own language. Not gibberish became sentences.

True enough

Also the bible says if some one is actually speaking in spiritual tongues there will be one who speaks and one who interupts. It goes on to says that if a lost person walks in and sees everyone in the church speaking in tongues they will call us fools and leave.

Can't argue with that

People who pray in tongues because the "devil will steal their prayer" where is that in the bible? Is God so weak that he can't hear what your going to say? Is our God so weak and dumb he doesn't already know what your going to pray before you do it? The answer is No! My God is an awesome God who hears all my foolish prayers who is the Alpha and Omega He knows ALL.

AMEN! :cool:Again, true enough. And yet the gift of tongues, as it is presented in the bible, exists both as a sign for unbelievers:

1Co 14:22
(22) Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

As well as for personal communication with God:

1Co 14:14
(14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Co 14:4
(4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

wondercoolguy

Sep 5th 2008, 05:32 AM

Do you not understand that Paul was playing on a level that none of will ever reach.

If you start with 1 Corin 14 and read the whole chapter verse after verse. The purpose of it is prophesy not to run up and down the isles doing cart wheels :bounce: and speaking gibberish.

I can guarantee you that the average American Christian(me included) does not have the faith to the power for that. If you told me when to Africa and one stood up and started speaking in tongues and one stood up and interpreted I would believe you. All those ppl have is God, no video games, no mc'ds, no walmart, no hollywood, no soccer mom schedules.

All they have is faith in God and living by it.

Buck shot

Sep 5th 2008, 01:27 PM

Do you not understand that Paul was playing on a level that none of will ever reach.

Speak for yourself Brother!

We have the same Holy Spirit within us that Paul had so we are only limited by how much we choose to yield to Him. Paul gave 99.9 % (i say that because i know Paul said he still was not perfect) so if we can yield 99.9 % we too can be where Paul was with the Lord. IF we could yield 100% we could possibly even get closer. ;)

I have not gotten there yet but i am a great % closer than i was 15 years ago, much closer than i was 5 years ago, and even a little closer than i was 6 months ago. So i will continue to mature as long as i continue to yield when He wants me to make the next step forward.

The great thing about this is that we all have the same opportunity!:pp
We can all grow closer to the Lord daily.

wondercoolguy

Sep 5th 2008, 02:34 PM

Speak for yourself Brother!
We can all grow closer to the Lord daily.

I don't doubt your heart, not at all. We are talking about a man who physically saw Jesus with his own his and was taken into Heaven. He experienced things in life that we will only experince in Death. Trust me I know Paul is human we get a glimpse of that when him and barnabas had a disagreement and when he talked about the thorn in his side.

I will strive till I die or the Lord comes back to get to that point.

livingwaters

Sep 5th 2008, 04:22 PM

always

Sep 5th 2008, 04:36 PM

I speak in tongues, AS THE SPIRIT GIVES UTTERANCE. as previously stated the bible does not lie and the order of service of the tongues in Corinthians if ones read is obvious.

Do all have to speak in tongues? no all do not have the gift of tongues

But I do believe that one will speak in tongues when they recieve a baptismal Holy Ghost experience and be endowed with power.

Praying in spirit is a personal thing that one does in the closet of their hearts

livingwaters

Sep 5th 2008, 04:46 PM

Thank you Father, that others do interpret your Word correctly...Your Word is the truth....it's not debatable!!!! IT IS THE WORD OF GOD!!!!ALLELUIA~~~~:pp:pp

Oregongrown

Sep 5th 2008, 05:03 PM

thing, is that, imho, people are way more focused on the "gift" then they are Christ. Now some folks I've met that "speak in tongues" also seemed to practice the Love of Jesus. Then only time I felt they were on a "different" plane, or atleast thought they were, was when they would say things like "when you really want tongues you'll be given them" or "you need to want all God has for you". Now whether anyone believes me or not, I could care less because Christ knows. His Holy Spirit came to dwell in me the day I was born-again. And, that day I was indeed "baptised" in the Holy Spirit. I could spend all day showing folks scripture but I have better things to do than argue which is all that ever comes of "tongue" discussions. I am certain God is not pleased with that either. Not speaking of anyone here or elsewhere but, there are people in this "world" that believe the Holy Spirit is not in a person unless they speak in tongues. No where in the bible, do I see this and on wise counsel, The Holy Spirit Himself, I happen to know that is satans lie. This is my belief and everyone can believe as they choose. I am secure in my salvation and my walk with Christ. I am secure in the knowledge He lives in me and through me by the Holy Spirit. I have gifts but I don't go about flaunting them or even speaking of them. I figure actions speak louder than "tongues" pun intended:) But I don't doubt there are folks in this "world" that may have the gift of tongues, but I truly doubt they talk about it. Because if they truly have it, they know the Holy Spirit would never have them be anything but humble about their gifts.

A sister in Christ, denise :hug:

livingwaters

Sep 5th 2008, 05:09 PM

I am very humble about speaking in tongues. However, I don't think the Holy Spirit would be too pleased about us trying to hide or be embarrassed in how HE has sooooo blessed us.

They are gifts from the Holy Spirit....It's just as HE said, if your earthly father can give you good gifts, how much better can I, your Heavenly Father give you gifts.....Amen

The Bible plainly says, that not all will have the gift of tongues. However, we all have some gift/gifts of the Holy Spirit, if we are born-again!!!! That's what the Bible says. Alleulia.

God Bless:hug::saint:

Oregongrown

Sep 5th 2008, 05:14 PM

but I said "flaunting" which was not to say "hide" our gifts. That would be one extreme to the other, both wrong:) Orderly is what it's about as God tells us through Paul. We are commanded to use our gifts, just in Gods Way, not a man-made way.

A sister in Christ, denise :hug:

livingwaters

Sep 5th 2008, 05:18 PM

Thanks, Denise. Yes, flaunting is definately not what God wants. HE hates pride.

God Bless:hug:

wondercoolguy

Sep 5th 2008, 05:39 PM

WonderCoolGuy, I'm concerned about your putting God in a box and calling the Bible a lie!!!! I didn't write the Bible, but it does say what it says. Amen. It says that some may have the gift of tongues, speaking and interpreting or just speaking.

Passage 1 Corinthians 12: 4-11
4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Passage 1 Corinthians 12:27-31:

27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

God Bless:):pray::saint:

I'm concerned with you molding the scripture justify a belief that is not made for ever day consumption. My God is not in a box He is awesome and can do anything. It is people that who's faith isn't what it should be that is the problem.(myself included).

You bring up tongues in chapter 12 when its not clearly defined until chapter 14. But let's take your verses "to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:"
Thank you for helping me out. Paul says gifts of tongue, followed by gifts of Interpretation of tongues. Which means if you speaking in tongues you better have some there to interpert or its unbiblical. This is validated in Chapter 14 where if you read the whole chapter you'll see that tongues are for prophesy.

1 corin 14 23 us PLAIN AS DAY

If therefore the whole church be come together into one place and all speak with tongues and there come in those that are unlearned or her is convinced or unbelievers will they not say that yer are mad (CRAZY!)

In closing on this comment ;)
I believe that tongues are taken way to lightly and inappropiately used. God can use how ever he sees fit all he requires is the proper faith to back it up. To say that the AMERICAN Christian has the same faith power as Paul, IS WRONG.

Oregongrown

Sep 5th 2008, 06:09 PM

thank you for you input as well. I need to get my testimony written out here too. That is great how you have yours as a signature/link. Ending up in a shelter, waking up one morning "old" :lol: has knocked a lot of the pride outa me and I have to say it's the best thing that could happen to me. I still have it though. To be honest here, I feel it's only fair to say I still have some resentment from my early christian walk. I had been born-again and the bible that had been given to me(which never made any sense)came alive for me that day:
1 Cor. 2:13-14
13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp#) These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=2&translation=nkjvp#) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I was told by a dear lady who I charished as a friend, that I couldn't have the Holy Spirit unless I spoke in tongues. She said that "maybe I thought I did but it was not so". I cried like a baby and asked God to help me. I knew He had not just saved me but gave me a reason for being alive, a purpose for my life afterall. I went to my minister and he showed me scripture and told me that he did not believe she was correct. In his opinion, we are saved and baptised at the same time. As I read the Word more and more myself, I came to believe also. I love that woman to this day and do forgive her. I know that her belief is as sincere as mine. We just see it differently.

God bless your day lw, your sister in Christ, denise:hug:
PS there was one, tiny lady named Carol I will never forget:) She was quiet as a mouse but when you got to know her she would talk, but very humble and soft-spoken. She shared with me that she spoke in tongues and had been given the gift when she was saved. She told me how we all got gifts but different as paul tells us. But I so respected her and because of her really, I believe tongues are for today as well as back then.

Thanks, Denise. Yes, flaunting is definately not what God wants. HE hates pride.

God Bless:hug:

Buck shot

Sep 5th 2008, 06:27 PM

I believe that tongues are taken way to lightly and inappropiately used. God can use how ever he sees fit all he requires is the proper faith to back it up. To say that the AMERICAN Christian has the same faith power as Paul, IS WRONG.

Okay folks, lets tone it down a bit.

We all have our opinions, but it is just that, our opinions. Scripture is scripture and we all view it a little differantly in spots.

Let's look at facts... Paul was given his faith power by whom? It was by the same Holy Spirit who lives in us. Is this Spirit any weaker because we have more distractions? I think not. Also, there are some here in the United States that see right thru the distractions of our busy world and serve God just as Paul did, giving of themselves completely. Thru this technical explosion of today there are folks who reach Christians on every Continent. The Holy Spirit is doing a mighty work thru these folks that i can easily compare to the faith power of Paul.

Believe me, i am not trying to downplay Paul, he is one of my all time heros and my wife would tell you as she has told many that she gets tired of me starting sentances with "Paul said _____".

I just know that Paul was a man like you and I, just a man, had the Lord not given him the power, we probably would not know who he was today.

livingwaters

Sep 5th 2008, 06:31 PM

Amen, Buckshot....God does not change.....HE is the same yesterday, today, and for ever!!!!! Glory to God.:hug:

wondercoolguy

Sep 5th 2008, 07:17 PM

The Holy Spirit is doing a mighty work

Amen BROTHER!
*insert picture of Hulk Hogan*

livingwaters

Sep 5th 2008, 07:21 PM

What a comparison!!! I'm sure the Holy Spirit loves you mocking HIM!!! I'll pray for you. I don't think Hulk can help you, but the Holy Spirit can.Amen and Amen!!!!:pp

God Bless!;)

wondercoolguy

Sep 5th 2008, 08:46 PM

What a comparison!!! I'm sure the Holy Spirit loves you mocking HIM!!! I'll pray for you. I don't think Hulk can help you, but the Holy Spirit can.Amen and Amen!!!!:pp

God Bless!;)

I will not be baited into further verbal conflict with you. You take things and twist them into something they are not.

I meant nothing by that last comment other than humor. You twisted it; don't pray for me; pray that God humbles your spirit…..I will say no more.

Oregongrown

Sep 5th 2008, 09:53 PM

I think this is inappropriate. Weren't you and I just talking about pride earlier? Your posts sounds like you are perfectly in sinc with God and the rest who may not see things as you do are not. I am sorry I had to see this. I had a totally different pic of you when we exchanged some posts:(

denise

Oregongrown

Sep 5th 2008, 10:03 PM

I don't agree with all any brother or sister says but one thing I will stand against and that is the "practice" of condescending prayers for someone. When we pray folks, we best check our motives. If you all remember in the bible where there was, I think, a poor wretch of man, and a rich man before a King. The rich man prayed and thanked God or the King, can't remember, that he wasn't like the other guy. God doesn't hear those types of prayers folks. Only heartfelt, honest, humble prayers, genuine.

God bless all, your sister in Christ, denise

I will not be baited into further verbal conflict with you. You take things and twist them into something they are not.

I meant nothing by that last comment other than humor. You twisted it; don't pray for me; pray that God humbles your spirit…..I will say no more.

MyGod

Sep 5th 2008, 10:26 PM

OK, first, just a friendly little hint, - it could get you into some trouble. It is, after all, a Christian site.

As for the speaking in tongues issue itself, I was also raised as a Southern Baptist (but I attend a non-denominational church, for various reasons), so I can relate to the point of view that's been hammered into you.

I would argue that speaking in tongues was specifically intended as a sign to the Jews regarding Jesus, and once the destruction of the Temple took place in 70 AD, tongues ceased.

However, people who believe that speaking in tongues is real today will not be told otherwise and they will continue to train themselves in the "whostolamyhonda-untielamybowtie" routine, no matter what you say.

What I'm ultimate driving at is this: You're going to have to make up your own mind. What it ultimately comes down to is this: Is Christianity a matter of faith (that doesn't require tongues to prove God is real)? Or is Christianity a matter of experience (where God is obligated to "prove" Himself by taking over your mouth on occasion and "causing" you to utter gibberish that somebody else conveniently "translates", normally into something that is so general that it has no meaning, or a prophecy that fails to materialize)?

I've made my position clear, those of you who disagree I'm sure will not be swayed, because you need your "tongues" high every Sunday morning, so I will now leave InSchoolStudy to make an individual decision.....:D

Amen, amen, amen. In addition, this scripture "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away" supports my belief that we aren't given the gift of tongues in this dispensation. The scriptures go on to say " For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." When God's word was complete (the Bible), we no longer need or are given the gift of prophesying, the gift of tongues, or the gift of healing.

Also, tongues refers to language in parts of the bible, one being Acts 2 (I think) where others thought men were drunk w/new wine. They were prophesying if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, it was language. . . not a bunch of jibberish.

This is what I believe.

Randyc46

Sep 5th 2008, 10:26 PM

Oregongrown

Sep 5th 2008, 10:28 PM

I don't see him mocking the Holy Spirit?? The hulk hogan comment was about BuckShot because he speaks boldly. That is what I see. Could you be off base here a little? Just wondering because I see the things you've come down on WC with and I don't see him being guilty of it?

I don't know sister but I have made mistakes like that before, misunderstanding people online. It is difficult. But, I do know that when we talk with others we are always to speak in love. It's a constant battle for all, I realize. But to be in good standing with Christ, we must strive to follow His lead.

God bless your sister in Christ, denise :hug:

What a comparison!!! I'm sure the Holy Spirit loves you mocking HIM!!! I'll pray for you. I don't think Hulk can help you, but the Holy Spirit can.Amen and Amen!!!!:pp

God Bless!;)

Oregongrown

Sep 5th 2008, 10:35 PM

Since there are folks that believe there is no indwelling of the Holy Spirit or baptism, unless one speaks in tongues, then I would have to say that is right up there with salvation itself, pretty important isn't it, to have God's Holy Spirit in us?? Jesus stated that "you must be born-again". Now "must" sounds important. So I would have to ask why doesn't it say "we must" speak in tongues to have His Holy Spirit? Wouldn't anything as important as the indwelling of His Spirit within us have to have a few 'musts" about tongues if they were that important?

God bless, your sister in Christ, denise

While the "proof" used by both sides of this issue really boil down to a few words of instruction to one particular church in the first century, and since no one here is going to have thier mind changed, mainly because no one beleives thier mind NEEDS to be changed, :Bwhat about this question:
Why wasn't God more specific in when or if tongues would cease or be used?

MyGod

Sep 5th 2008, 10:36 PM

I myself do not speak in tongues, but I pelieve that Paul is pretty clear on the subject. I can't find any reason, in the bible, why tongues are no longer a gift of the Spirit. The only reasoning I have come accross relates to the following verse:

1Co 13:8-12
(8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
(9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
(10) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(11) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
(12) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

But we have not seen God face to face yet, so this verse is still yet to be fullfilled.

Sorry, didn't know you'd already quoted this scripture. You must be quoting from the NIV, I see our wording is different... I'm quoting from the KJV.

I believe "when that which is perfect is come" refers to the completion of the Holy Bible. That's why Paul says "For we know in part, we prophesy in part." Saints then didn't have a complete inspired Word of God. My play brother believes what you do though. We just agreed to disagree. :D

MyGod

Sep 5th 2008, 10:40 PM

While the "proof" used by both sides of this issue really boil down to a few words of instruction to one particular church in the first century, and since no one here is going to have thier mind changed, mainly because no one beleives thier mind NEEDS to be changed, :Bwhat about this question:
Why wasn't God more specific in when or if tongues would cease or be used?

He was. When God's word says "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away," (from what I understand and believe), when the Bible was complete there was no need for tongues. Also, as I said in my other post, there was no need for and we are no longer given the gift of tongues, prophesying, and healing. There's no need to prophesy, you can read whatever you need to know about future events in the Bible.

We don't need anyone to tell us anything but Christ died for our sins, we need a savior, and we're going to Heaven. You can find all that information in the Word.

livingwaters

Sep 5th 2008, 10:45 PM

If I offended anyone, I'm sorry. This is a touchy subject, so I'll have no more to say about it. Peace be with you!:)

Oregongrown

Sep 5th 2008, 11:00 PM

I am not one to throw rocks as I have offended whether intentionally or not. Many of those times some christian stepped up and lovingly told me I was doing that and I am forever grateful. I am much more civilized in my communication skills, LOL!! God bless you darlin, ysic, denise:) :hug:

If I offended anyone, I'm sorry. This is a touchy subject, so I'll have no more to say about it. Peace be with you!:)

Oregongrown

Sep 5th 2008, 11:04 PM

I've heard and read a little about the "ceasing" thing but what you have added in your posts has given me some things to research in His Word. I am open to learning more about what His Word actually says. I know the HS is my ultimate helper/interpreter in that but as I mentioned somewhere earlier, I listen to my brothers and sisters and learn much.

Thank you and God bless, ysic, denise :)

Sorry, didn't know you'd already quoted this scripture. You must be quoting from the NIV, I see our wording is different... I'm quoting from the KJV.

I believe "when that which is perfect is come" refers to the completion of the Holy Bible. That's why Paul says "For we know in part, we prophesy in part." Saints then didn't have a complete inspired Word of God. My play brother believes what you do though. We just agreed to disagree. :D

MyGod

Sep 5th 2008, 11:19 PM

If I offended anyone, I'm sorry. This is a touchy subject, so I'll have no more to say about it. Peace be with you!:)

That's sad. Discussing the Word of God should never be a "touchy subject," especially among believers. Although the Word says "scripture is of no private interpretation," we do interpret it differently. I think it's just a matter of understanding and believing. But, in the end, we should all believe the same thing if the Word is supposed to be "of no private interpretation." You shouldn't feel like you can't say anything more. I haven't read all of this thread so I don't know what you're talking about. But, if there aren't any personal attacks like "what the crap are you talking about are you an idiot for believing that?!?," (Lol, exaggeration), we should be able to agree to disagree.

I remember a couple years ago, a co-worker's wife asked me to go to church w/she and my co-worker. I'd already been w/my mother-in-law to that same church and on another occassion. The pastor teaches differently than what I believe with regard to dispensationalism (e.g. speaking in tongues, water baptism, prophesying, healing, tithing, is that it. . . yeah) so, I politely declined. She asked me why. I politely said "we just believe differently on some practices. She asked "like what?" so, I said just what I said about three sentences above. She got soooooo mad. Now, she was a baby christian at that point and was really shaken. I didn't say what I said at all to shake her or confuse her or anything like that. I simply answered her question. She asked me if I thought she was lying because she said she speaks in tongues. I said, "I didn't say that. If you believe that you speak in tongues, that's great. I personally don't believe saints are given the gift of tongues in this dispensation (grace period)." But, she was mad. I thought that was sad. We should've been able to share scriptures supporting our belief and left it at that. But many times people are threatened, shaken, and offended when others don't share their beliefs. I'm not. I believe what I believe and I'll stand firm in that belief. If you believe differently, we can just change the subject. Especially if neither party is willing to change his/her belief.

MyGod

Sep 5th 2008, 11:20 PM

livingword26

Sep 5th 2008, 11:49 PM

Sorry, didn't know you'd already quoted this scripture. You must be quoting from the NIV, I see our wording is different... I'm quoting from the KJV.

I believe "when that which is perfect is come" refers to the completion of the Holy Bible. That's why Paul says "For we know in part, we prophesy in part." Saints then didn't have a complete inspired Word of God. My play brother believes what you do though. We just agreed to disagree. :D

How do you explain verse 12? Who do you think Paul is talking about seeing face to face? And who will he know as he is known? This is clearly talking about God, and the return of Christ.

1 Cor 13:8-13

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
KJV

livingword26

Sep 6th 2008, 12:08 AM

I remember a couple years ago, a co-worker's wife asked me to go to church w/she and my co-worker. I'd already been w/my mother-in-law to that same church and on another occassion. The pastor teaches differently than what I believe with regard to dispensationalism (e.g. speaking in tongues, water baptism, prophesying, healing, tithing, is that it. . . yeah) so, I politely declined.

That is very interesting. If I understand right, you don't believe in water baptism? What about:

Mat 28:19
(19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Also, do you believe that all the gifts of the Spirit are over, or are some still valid. What do you believe the Holy Spirits role now is?

VerticalReality

Sep 6th 2008, 12:19 AM

Okay folks, lets tone it down a bit.

We all have our opinions, but it is just that, our opinions. Scripture is scripture and we all view it a little differantly in spots.

Let's look at facts... Paul was given his faith power by whom? It was by the same Holy Spirit who lives in us. Is this Spirit any weaker because we have more distractions? I think not. Also, there are some here in the United States that see right thru the distractions of our busy world and serve God just as Paul did, giving of themselves completely. Thru this technical explosion of today there are folks who reach Christians on every Continent. The Holy Spirit is doing a mighty work thru these folks that i can easily compare to the faith power of Paul.

Believe me, i am not trying to downplay Paul, he is one of my all time heros and my wife would tell you as she has told many that she gets tired of me starting sentances with "Paul said _____".

I just know that Paul was a man like you and I, just a man, had the Lord not given him the power, we probably would not know who he was today.

Excellent post, my friend . . .

MyGod

Sep 6th 2008, 01:06 AM

How do you explain verse 12? Who do you think Paul is talking about seeing face to face? And who will he know as he is known? This is clearly talking about God, and the return of Christ.

1 Cor 13:8-13

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
KJV

James refers to the glass as the written Word of God (James 1:23 - For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass). I believe that when Paul is talking about seeing through the glass, darkly, he's not seeing fully. . .all hasn't been revealed to him. This is talking about the believer not understanding his true identity in Christ. At this point, which I believe was written during the Acts Period. As you know, the Acts period is a transition book from the Kingdom period to the Grace period. He didn't fully understand everything, everything hadn't been revealed as of yet. That's what I believe.

MyGod

Sep 6th 2008, 01:11 AM

That is very interesting. If I understand right, you don't believe in water baptism? What about:

Mat 28:19
(19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Also, do you believe that all the gifts of the Spirit are over, or are some still valid. What do you believe the Holy Spirits role now is?

Paul says "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." And, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

I believe when we accept the Lord Jesus' Christs, death, burial, and resurrection (according to scripture) we are baptized.

I don't understand what you mean by "what do I believe the Holy Spirit's role is now." Can you elaborate?

livingword26

Sep 6th 2008, 01:31 AM

I don't understand what you mean by "what do I believe the Holy Spirit's role is now." Can you elaborate?

The gifts of the Spirit are run by the Spirit. If you prophecy, this is done by the Holy Spirit through you. If the gifts of the Spirit are on longer valid, what exactly do you believe the Holy Spirits function is in the church and in the individual. Also, do you believe that all of the gifts are expired, such as:

1 Cor 12:28
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
KJV

Eph 4:11
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
KJV

livingword26

Sep 6th 2008, 01:38 AM

I believe when we accept the Lord Jesus' Christs, death, burial, and resurrection (according to scripture) we are baptized.

How does this verse fit into that idea of baptizm?

Act 10:47-48
(47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
(48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

BroRog

Sep 6th 2008, 02:52 AM

I don't think tongues have ceased, but I also don't agree with those who say tongues is uncommon in America because we lack faith. I think a more pragmatic answer is closer to the truth.

Imagine that your parents gave you a gift for Christmas. The wonder of this gift comes from its ability to translate whatever you say into Swahili. It comes with a built-in microphone and an LCD readout. All you need to do is speak into the microphone and in a few seconds, a translation of your words appear in Swahili on the screen.

The following Sunday you take your gift to church to show your friends and your pastor. You speak into the device and the Swahili equivalent appears on the screen. What a marvel of technology and so impressive. It really is an amazing thing.

The wonder of this device is only tarnished a little bit by the fact that it has no practical value. Everyone of your friends at church and your pastor already speak English. The fact that Swahili shows up on the screen is a marvel, but not very practical. It's really nothing more than a toy.

One day, your family decides to take a vacation in East Africa, perhaps the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Suddenly, what was a mere toy is now the most practical thing to have. Since Swahili is the lingua franca of the Congo your device is going to be very helpful when you want to ask directions, find a restaurant, or take a taxi.

You see, I believe tongues is rare in America because most people speak English, and those who don't, have someone to translate for them. In addition, America has churches in which other languages are spoken. So if you speak Spanish, you can find a church in which the service is in Spanish. If you are Korean, you can find a church in which Korean is spoken. and etc. The Holy Spirit is willing to use whatever means he will in order to spread the gospel. And when language is a barrier, he will give one of us the gift of tongues. But if language isn't a barrier, why would he? That would be just about as useless as a device that translates English into Swahili in a church in which everyone already speaks English.

livingword26

Sep 6th 2008, 04:33 AM

Oregongrown

Sep 6th 2008, 03:20 PM

This was a good read and makes very good sense to me. Also, I am of the same "mind" in that there was "that" purpose at Pentecost. I've always believed that way about it. And yes, God will and does use any means He choses to reach the lost:) Im not inclined to go with tongues ceasing at this time. The bible talks about it but I don't think the time has "arrived" I would really need to study HIs Word much further though because I just don't know that much about it. One thing I believe in is the discernment given to us through the Holy Spirit. Many times I have not studied a particular part of the bible, but the Holy Spirit has provided "help" for me. It's revealed to me in the Word at a later time. I have to be careful not to think "Oh, I knew that and hadn't even read it". Because I knew nothing, but the Holy Spirit provided knowledge:)

God bless, your sister in Christ, denise

MyGod

Sep 6th 2008, 03:29 PM

How does this verse fit into that idea of baptizm?

Act 10:47-48
(47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
(48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Those verses are during the transition period between the Kingdom period and the Grace period. Paul is progressively learning more and more information and the mystery program is almost fully revealed. When you read of baptism after Acts, it doesn't speak of water baptism.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began."

BroRog

Sep 6th 2008, 05:41 PM

What do you think the purpose of "tongues of angels"? And what are "unknown tongues"?

1Co 13:1
(1) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1Co 14:27
(27) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

The purpose of language is always the same: to communicate ideas from one person to another.

That's my short answer. Now allow me to examine the verses you mentioned.

1Co 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

In this we take note of the fact that Paul is about to launch into a unifying principle, an idea that both stands above and remains as the basis for all the other gifts of the spirit. In this passage Paul will argue that love should be our primary motivation for speaking prophetically, or giving edification through the gift of tongues, which is true for all the gifts of the Spirit. So let's highlight the verse and make the lettering bold where the true emphasis lies.

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Now, I take note of the fact that, apart from the context of Paul's exhortation of the previous chapter an expression like "the tongues of men and of angels" commonly refers to the languages men and angels speak to each other apart from the supernatural gift of speaking in tongues. Don't get me wrong. I believe the topic is supernatural tongues. But I'm pointing out that Paul's statement would apply to normal speech too, because the cause of the message being unintelligible is not the strangeness of the wording, but a lack of love.

In other words, if I am talking to you without love, my words to you will sound "tinny" like a brass instrument such as a tinkling cymbal. My words will be without substance, flimsy, light and airy, without any base tones to ground them. What I say to you will not seem very important, not very meaningful, lacking significance and relevance to you. Continuing the music metaphor, words given without love are like room noise, background music, or "muzak." But words spoken in love have power, significance, relevance, substance and the ability to penetrate the barriers we raise between each other.

His point is well taken even among those who speak and understand the same language. If a man speaks to another man without love, his words will not ring true. If an angel speaks to another angel without love, his words will not have substance or relevance. Love makes the difference.

1Co 14:27
If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

In this, I think Paul is being very diplomatic in his wording. On the one hand, he is trying to discourage the misuse of tongues and eliminate the copycat impostors among them. He is working with a group of people who are very impressionable and fascinated with the supernatural. On the other hand, he affirms the gift of tongues and wants to encourage those who have the actual gift to use it wisely and modestly.

So Paul lays down some ground rules so as to bring order to an otherwise chaotic situation. (To continue with the music metaphor, even Jazz has structure and rules though there is plenty of room for improvisation and self expression.) As exciting as it might be to have half the church speaking in tongues in a frenzy that appears to be a powerful moving of the Spirit, Paul wants the church to limit it to two or three people at the maximum, and each person is to speak one at a time, taking turns. And most of all, someone must be able to interpret what is being said so that the rest of the congregation can learn and understand.

In this context, I believe he is using the term "unknown" the same way we would use the term "foreign" in our time. If anyone is going to speak in a foreign language, let it be done by two or three etc. And let someone interpret. If the language was completely unknown to human kind, no one would be able to interpret.

TravisJ

Sep 6th 2008, 06:37 PM

Ok... evidence of the Holy Ghost or Spirit is speaking in tongues....

Take a look at Acts Chapter 2... And when the day of pentecost fully came... Pentecost was a feast called Day of Pentecost, still happening today.. the feast is... but in order for the Day of Pentecost to fully come they had to have 12 apostles and only having 11 after Judas betrayed Jesus and cost him his own life... and whenever it fully came had Matthias as the 12th apostle.. then.. and there came a sound from Heaven as a rushing might wind... it filled the whole upper room, 120 were being filled with the Holy Ghost... and then after Peter preached a Sermon infront of all Jerusalem they were pricked to there heart and then Acts 2:38 Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remissions of sins, and ye shall the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you ,and your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance...

This was prophesied and it came about.. this was just the Former reign... 3000 souls were being added each Day, in Jerusalem... But the Latter Reign will be greater than the Former Reign.. of the outcoming of the Holy Ghost...

Christians should not be afraid, why be afraid of recieving the Holy Ghost, You need to have it... Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is none other name under heaven given among been; whereby we must be saved.

Its not the actually being afraid, soeme people it is.. but its the lack of knowledge.... John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily I say unto you thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Be baptized in his name, and in his spirit...

Oregongrown

Sep 6th 2008, 06:41 PM

Excellent! Praise the Lord:) I believe only the Holy Spirit can teach like that:) God bless, your sister in Christ, denise

livingword26

Sep 6th 2008, 06:58 PM

The purpose of language is always the same: to communicate ideas from one person to another.

That's my short answer. Now allow me to examine the verses you mentioned.

1Co 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

In this we take note of the fact that Paul is about to launch into a unifying principle, an idea that both stands above and remains as the basis for all the other gifts of the spirit. In this passage Paul will argue that love should be our primary motivation for speaking prophetically, or giving edification through the gift of tongues, which is true for all the gifts of the Spirit. So let's highlight the verse and make the lettering bold where the true emphasis lies.

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Now, I take note of the fact that, apart from the context of Paul's exhortation of the previous chapter an expression like "the tongues of men and of angels" commonly refers to the languages men and angels speak to each other apart from the supernatural gift of speaking in tongues. Don't get me wrong. I believe the topic is supernatural tongues. But I'm pointing out that Paul's statement would apply to normal speech too, because the cause of the message being unintelligible is not the strangeness of the wording, but a lack of love.

In other words, if I am talking to you without love, my words to you will sound "tinny" like a brass instrument such as a tinkling cymbal. My words will be without substance, flimsy, light and airy, without any base tones to ground them. What I say to you will not seem very important, not very meaningful, lacking significance and relevance to you. Continuing the music metaphor, words given without love are like room noise, background music, or "muzak." But words spoken in love have power, significance, relevance, substance and the ability to penetrate the barriers we raise between each other.

His point is well taken even among those who speak and understand the same language. If a man speaks to another man without love, his words will not ring true. If an angel speaks to another angel without love, his words will not have substance or relevance. Love makes the difference.

1Co 14:27
If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

In this, I think Paul is being very diplomatic in his wording. On the one hand, he is trying to discourage the misuse of tongues and eliminate the copycat impostors among them. He is working with a group of people who are very impressionable and fascinated with the supernatural. On the other hand, he affirms the gift of tongues and wants to encourage those who have the actual gift to use it wisely and modestly.

So Paul lays down some ground rules so as to bring order to an otherwise chaotic situation. (To continue with the music metaphor, even Jazz has structure and rules though there is plenty of room for improvisation and self expression.) As exciting as it might be to have half the church speaking in tongues in a frenzy that appears to be a powerful moving of the Spirit, Paul wants the church to limit it to two or three people at the maximum, and each person is to speak one at a time, taking turns. And most of all, someone must be able to interpret what is being said so that the rest of the congregation can learn and understand.

In this context, I believe he is using the term "unknown" the same way we would use the term "foreign" in our time. If anyone is going to speak in a foreign language, let it be done by two or three etc. And let someone interpret. If the language was completely unknown to human kind, no one would be able to interpret.

I agree with almost every thing you say, with two exceptions. You seemed to have slipped around the fact that Paul is saying that it is possible for him to speak with an angelic tongue. Now, we know from many places in the bible that angels can speak to men in their languages, so there is really not needed for a spiritual gift to be given for that purpose. Also, if a man speaks in an unknown (angelic or otherwise) language, anyone can interpret that has that spiritual gift. Interpretation is a gift of the spirit as well.

1Co 12:27-31
(27) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
(28) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
(29) Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
(30) Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
(31) But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.

TravisJ

Sep 6th 2008, 07:13 PM

When you accept the life, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, you are not baptized..

Jesus said.. In John 3:3 Verily, verily, I say unto thee (Nicodemus), Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.. and next in John 3:5 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God...

That is scripture... Act 2:38 is the plan of salvation..... Acts 4:12 clarifies that is salvation... and there is none other salvation...

You have to believe in order to receive... That is why Simon not Simon Peter but Simon in Acts the man who try to buy the Holy Ghost, he couldn't. He could not receive the Holy Ghost because he did not believe.. That is why you have to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, without him there wouldn't be salvation...

Faith without works is dead. You shew me thy faith with out thy works, and i will shew thee my faith by my works...

livingword26

Sep 6th 2008, 07:18 PM

livingword26

Sep 6th 2008, 07:40 PM

This was a good read and makes very good sense to me. Also, I am of the same "mind" in that there was "that" purpose at Pentecost. I've always believed that way about it. And yes, God will and does use any means He choses to reach the lost:) Im not inclined to go with tongues ceasing at this time. The bible talks about it but I don't think the time has "arrived" I would really need to study HIs Word much further though because I just don't know that much about it.

They will cease when you see Jesus face to face, and when you know Him as He knows you. This is described in verse 12.

1Co 13:8-12
(8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
(9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
(10) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(11) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
(12) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

TravisJ

Sep 6th 2008, 07:52 PM

For we live in the latter days?

Can you not tell already? Why do people choose tomorrow or the next day to seek salvation.....

I tell you, everyone of you.... Repent, and be baptized in the name of JESUS CHRIST for the remissions of sins, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost..!

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is none other name under heaven given among men; whereby WE MUST BE SAVED!

Why wait? Why do you think right now is not the time to speak in tongues...

Speaking in Tongues is just evidence of the Holy Ghost... Are people to afraid of it? Although you have to have it..

God is the only one who can baptized you in the Spirit...

I have been baptized in the Spirit.. The Holy Ghost... and i am not ashamed... I received more than just salvation.. I have received power.. and that power.. is the Holy Ghost.. it dwelleth inside of me Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and be witnesses unto me and both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea ( Jews), and in Samaria (Half-Jews), and unto the uttermost part of the earth (Gentiles)

Is people afraid to give up there lives to have eternal life? What is holding people back from being fully born again!?

dispen4ever

Sep 6th 2008, 11:55 PM

People from all over the known world were in Jerusalem. Each language group heard witnessing in their own language. The end.

livingword26

Sep 7th 2008, 12:23 AM

People from all over the known world were in Jerusalem. Each language group heard witnessing in their own language. The end.

Actually the Spiritual Gift of tongues is mentioned 27 times in 3 different chapters in the new testament.

dispen4ever

Sep 7th 2008, 02:23 AM

Actually the Spiritual Gift of tongues is mentioned 27 times in 3 different chapters in the new testament.

......and they all refer to a known, spoken language.

The end. Again.

livingword26

Sep 7th 2008, 04:00 AM

......and they all refer to a known, spoken language.

The end. Again.

Except for the unknown and angelic tongues of course.

1Co 13:1
(1) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1Co 14:27
(27) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

dispen4ever

Sep 7th 2008, 09:49 PM

........and neither passage has anything whatsoever to do with "tongues" as you understand it.

livingword26

Sep 7th 2008, 11:08 PM

........and neither passage has anything whatsoever to do with "tongues" as you understand it.

Well please, explain it to us.

wondercoolguy

Sep 8th 2008, 12:00 PM

In the context of speaking in tongues correctly....

1 Corn 14:34
Let your women keep silence in the chuches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

Also the Death of Tongues was talked about in 1 Corn 13 8-10
I'm at work I can't type it all out...but read it.

Buck shot

Sep 8th 2008, 02:11 PM

Is people afraid to give up there lives to have eternal life? What is holding people back from being fully born again!?

Travis, you do not have to speak in tongues to be born again. This is a gift of the Spirit as we see in the scripture but we are all given differant gifts. We are not told that Timothy spoke in tongues, what about Apollos? Even the scriptures that outline the characteristics of bishops and deacons do not include tongues...

"Fully" born again? What does that mean? Either you are born again a new creature or you are not born again. There is no partial birth...

Except for the unknown and angelic tongues of course.

1Co 14:27
(27) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

When an unknown tongue is used scripturally in a group, there will be an interpreter. Seems a lot of folks want to forget that part.

wondercoolguy

Sep 8th 2008, 02:34 PM

break time woot

On this topic all should go to sermon audio website and listen to a sermon by Steve hereford called The truth about tongues. He breaks it down big time.

Tongues in the Christian church disappeared until 1901 when a church in LA decided to make it a practice. So tongues went away for almost 1900 years...where did it go? Did you even know this as speaker of tongues? In this sermon I referenced Steve references great scholors who wrote great things and tongues is never mentioned until 1901 in America and in LA california of all places the most liberal states.

1 Corin 13:8
....whether there be tongues, they shall cease;...

The purpose of tongues was for one man to preach to many different walks of ppl at one time. To show God's power that one man could speak multiple languages at once and to spread the word. Now we have masses of missionaries.

Praying in Tongues 1 Corin 14: 14
For if I prayer in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayerth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Recap for the ppl who speak in tongues
Why did tongues dissappear till America got a hold of it?
Where does it say in the bible to pray in an unknown tongue?
Please define Tongues and Unknown Tongue ( there is a difference)

Oregongrown

Sep 8th 2008, 04:37 PM

Thank you so much. It was just a couple days ago I had read verse 10 about when that which is perfect comes, and of course, that could only mean Christ:) So I would have to go with the gifts still being alive and well. Us not being perfect and only "sort of" dealing with half a deck, LOL, makes sense to me too, atleast that's how I can best make it applicable to life on Earth:)

Thank you for the reminders of His Word, God bless, your sister in Christ, denise :hug:

They will cease when you see Jesus face to face, and when you know Him as He knows you. This is described in verse 12.

1Co 13:8-12
(8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
(9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
(10) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(11) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
(12) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Oregongrown

Sep 8th 2008, 04:56 PM

and it reminded me of how important it is to be open to God's leading/teaching. I for one learn something new everyday about God's Word. Even if I've read it over and over I still only "get" what God sees fit for me to know at this time in my walk with Him. No one ever totally arrives at the place of perfect understanding or knowledge until we go to be with our King. And even then, I suspect we won't be allowed to "know it all":confused but we'll be quite content with that "lack of knowledge":pp. And this is only "as denise see's it";). It should keep us humble even though in many cases it doesn't:rofl:not me anyway:) We are to press on but remain teachable always.

God bless, your sister in Christ, denise

Those verses are during the transition period between the Kingdom period and the Grace period. Paul is progressively learning more and more information and the mystery program is almost fully revealed. When you read of baptism after Acts, it doesn't speak of water baptism.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began."

Oregongrown

Sep 8th 2008, 05:05 PM

I am done with thread view, it is way to confusing. The linear is much easier on this forum:) This message of mine was meant for BroRoq. God bless all, ysic, denise

Excellent! Praise the Lord:) I believe only the Holy Spirit can teach like that:) God bless, your sister in Christ, denise

Oregongrown

Sep 8th 2008, 05:08 PM

Im sure I sound like a pinhead here but I was used to using "thread" view. Here it doesn't work for me, :rofl:Love to all, ysic, denise:hug:

This was a good read and makes very good sense to me. Also, I am of the same "mind" in that there was "that" purpose at Pentecost. I've always believed that way about it. And yes, God will and does use any means He choses to reach the lost:) Im not inclined to go with tongues ceasing at this time. The bible talks about it but I don't think the time has "arrived" I would really need to study HIs Word much further though because I just don't know that much about it. One thing I believe in is the discernment given to us through the Holy Spirit. Many times I have not studied a particular part of the bible, but the Holy Spirit has provided "help" for me. It's revealed to me in the Word at a later time. I have to be careful not to think "Oh, I knew that and hadn't even read it". Because I knew nothing, but the Holy Spirit provided knowledge:)

God bless, your sister in Christ, denise

Oregongrown

Sep 8th 2008, 05:31 PM

are saved. One thing that I think some of us forget, including myself, is that we have our own experience, a personal relationship with Christ. Who can know for sure what another person has experienced? That is between them and God. For me, I know that my "baptism" in the Holy Ghost came to me when I was broken and alone(see my testimony link below). I was not given a gift of speaking in an unknown tongue but I was given one gift for sure and probably atleast one other. This is a good read in mho. It is from John Mark Ministries. http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/9640.htm

I also want to say, before I forget in my old age:rofl:that no christian is safe in having a "I know it all" attitude. satan thought that too and figured he could take Gods place. Again, who are we to judge a person's relationship with Christ. I think every person is "exactly" where God wants them for what ever reason. To bring us closer to Him. True, maybe the fruits aren't evident but hey, mine have certainly not been at times and I know I am His. I just seem to be sort of a Jonah and spend some time in "the belly of the whale" deciding what is better, obeying God or, uh, well, no contest:) Love to all, ysic, denise;)

Ok... evidence of the Holy Ghost or Spirit is speaking in tongues....

Take a look at Acts Chapter 2... And when the day of pentecost fully came... Pentecost was a feast called Day of Pentecost, still happening today.. the feast is... but in order for the Day of Pentecost to fully come they had to have 12 apostles and only having 11 after Judas betrayed Jesus and cost him his own life... and whenever it fully came had Matthias as the 12th apostle.. then.. and there came a sound from Heaven as a rushing might wind... it filled the whole upper room, 120 were being filled with the Holy Ghost... and then after Peter preached a Sermon infront of all Jerusalem they were pricked to there heart and then Acts 2:38 Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remissions of sins, and ye shall the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you ,and your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance...

This was prophesied and it came about.. this was just the Former reign... 3000 souls were being added each Day, in Jerusalem... But the Latter Reign will be greater than the Former Reign.. of the outcoming of the Holy Ghost...

Christians should not be afraid, why be afraid of recieving the Holy Ghost, You need to have it... Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is none other name under heaven given among been; whereby we must be saved.

Its not the actually being afraid, soeme people it is.. but its the lack of knowledge.... John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily I say unto you thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Be baptized in his name, and in his spirit...

dispen4ever

Sep 8th 2008, 06:29 PM

Well please, explain it to us

Several have done so. :-)

keck553

Sep 8th 2008, 06:55 PM

Except for the unknown and angelic tongues of course.

1Co 13:1
(1) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1Co 14:27
(27) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

"Angel speak" is referenced in the bible. They either talked to a) humans b) between themselves or c) to God.

Everytime, it was in Hebrew. It is possible an angel spoke Greek to Cornelius, but being a "God fearing man", and probably new Hebrew with his association with the synagogue in his area.

The other reference is to known languages. Even in my previous line of work as a Russian interpreter, this pattern was utilized for accuracy. Seems God is pretty smart. :)

wondercoolguy

Sep 8th 2008, 07:29 PM

"Angel speak" is referenced in the bible. They either talked to a) humans b) between themselves or c) to God.

The issue Living is missing is that "tongues of men and of angels"

Tongues in that verse mean known langauges either by Men or Angels.
"wehajeka zoomka donkahe" translation jibberish is not tongues of men or angels and per Paul is wrong.

1Co 14:27
(27) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

Unknown Tongue in that verse means; I only know english if I started speaking German and never studied it before it is an unknown langauge (tongue) to me.

TravisJ

Sep 8th 2008, 08:35 PM

Travis, you do not have to speak in tongues to be born again. This is a gift of the Spirit as we see in the scripture but we are all given differant gifts. We are not told that Timothy spoke in tongues, what about Apollos? Even the scriptures that outline the characteristics of bishops and deacons do not include tongues...

"Fully" born again? What does that mean? Either you are born again a new creature or you are not born again. There is no partial birth...

When an unknown tongue is used scripturally in a group, there will be an interpreter. Seems a lot of folks want to forget that part.

You have got to be kidding me... Evidence of the Holy Ghost is speaking in tongues.. For it is written, and you can say what you want but you cannot change the Word around to fit your own beliefs... It saddens me to see people who say they believe but don't have the Holy Ghost. You wanna know why? Read Acts 19:1-6 I see it happen just about every time i go to church, a person who isn't in church but hits the altar for the first time in there life and they begin to speak in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance... of course they still have to be baptized in Jesus name...

Acts 19:2-6 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4. The said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is on Christ Jesus. 5. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost come on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

So the infilling of the Holy Ghost you do speak in tongues, as the spirit gives you utterance.. Go back to Acts chapter 2, 2-3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as fire, and it sat upon each of them. Look at the next verse... 2-4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.. There it is again...

James 2:17-19 17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18. Yea a man may say, Thou has faith, and I have works: shew my they faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19. thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe and tremble.

wondercoolguy

Sep 8th 2008, 08:56 PM

You have got to be kidding me... Evidence of the Holy Ghost is speaking in tongues.. For it is written, and you can say what you want but you cannot change the Word around to fit your own beliefs... It saddens me to see people who say they believe but don't have the Holy Ghost. You wanna know why? Read Acts 19:1-6 I see it happen just about every time i go to church, a person who isn't in church but hits the altar for the first time in there life and they begin to speak in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance... of course they still have to be baptized in Jesus name...

Acts 19:2-6 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4. The said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is on Christ Jesus. 5. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost come on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

So the infilling of the Holy Ghost you do speak in tongues, as the spirit gives you utterance.. Go back to Acts chapter 2, 2-3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as fire, and it sat upon each of them. Look at the next verse... 2-4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.. There it is again...

Since you experience this every time you go to church can you please then answer why the art of speaking in tongues disappeared in a CHRISTIAN Church until a church in LA in 1901 decided to bring it back?

The tongues you speak of that the Apostles spoke with Tongues of men. Not jibberish spouted out with no meaning. Like you pointed out when Peter preached each person understood in they're out langauge. Peter didn't get up there and start speaking jibberish and everyone just happened to understand.

dispen4ever

Sep 8th 2008, 09:11 PM

even in my previous line of work as a russian interpreter

usafss? Aia?

...........

TravisJ

Sep 8th 2008, 09:19 PM

Since you experience this every time you go to church can you please then answer why the art of speaking in tongues disappeared in a CHRISTIAN Church until a church in LA in 1901 decided to bring it back?

The tongues you speak of that the Apostles spoke with Tongues of men. Not jibberish spouted out with no meaning. Like you pointed out when Peter preached each person understood in they're out langauge. Peter didn't get up there and start speaking jibberish and everyone just happened to understand.

Speaking in tongues never disappeared, it was just stopped being preached behind a pulpit because people put so much faith in what the preacher says... but when it comes to the Word, they do not understand... Just like today.. Speaking in tongues never just up and quit.. it just people just up and quit, for so long... And then God had to do something about it.. In San Francisco ... there was a massive earthquake happened... It shook the whole nation... That same year that church started in 1906 to get right with God, was the same year that earthquake happened in California...

Read here.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azusa_Street_Revival

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/regional/nca/1906/18april/index.php

God had to wake people up... and something catastrophic had to be done for people to wake up...

They spoke in tongues of other languages, that they do not know....

That is why in Paul said, though i speak in tongues of men and angels, you don't understand... There is a meaning to it you don't know... The person speaking in tongues does not know what he is saying... The spirit gives you utterance...

stoomart

Sep 8th 2008, 09:22 PM

Dear brothers and sisters,

The teaching of speaking in tongues as the required and/or exclusive manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a believer is absolutely contrary to edification Paul speaks about in 1 Cor. 14:12 - "Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel."

I view this doctrine to be equally as destructive and devastating as saying to someone who is terminally ill that they are dying because of their lack of faith, if only they had more faith they would be healed.

Paul exhorts us to seek making known the Word of God (teaching/prophesying) above all other gifts, as this, combined with love, is the most powerful weapon a follower of Christ can wield. He speaks in 1 Cor. 12 of the gifts of the Holy Spirit being wisdom, faith, miracles, prophecy, discernment, tongues, and interpretation of tongues. He also speaks in Galatians 5 of the fruits of the Spirit (true evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit) as being love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance.

Jesus gave a very strong word of warning for those who put everything into the display of signs and wonders and not the relationship with our heavenly Father in Matthew 7:

21. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23. And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Woe to them who place a heavy yoke around the neck of our neighbor that God himself did not prescribe. "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage"

In Christ's love, stoo

TravisJ

Sep 8th 2008, 09:25 PM

All though i do not go by Wikipedia... because its just someone on there computer that you can't trust.. they say.. "outrageous and unorthodox" i laugh at that... just people who try to deny what was going on... I will have to get the book, or you will... because you can't go by wikipedia..

dispen4ever

Sep 8th 2008, 09:27 PM

Acts 19:2-6 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4. The said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is on Christ Jesus. 5. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost come on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

These Jewish folk did what John the Baptist commanded: Repent and be baptized (change your mind and go through ritual bathing/washing, the latter a Jewish requirement after changing your mind.) They were told that they needed to receive Jesus as Savior-Lord-Master-King. So they did. They received instantly the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and were given the ability to speak languages that were unknown to them so that they could witness to others in those languages. There are NO prophets on earth today! Forget about it! Those who stand up in a gathering and prophesy are reading their own mind, not God's Spirit. They deceive themselves and others. Prophesying by these newly born-again Jews was an ability given to them to use in contacting others, just like speaking a known language, previously unknown to them, to a language group or individual was.

Acts chapter 2, 2-3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as fire, and it sat upon each of them. Look at the next verse... 2-4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance

This was at Pentecost. The Jews were being equipped to go forth with the Good News. Part of the equipment was the ability to speak to others in their language.

NONE of that involves language utterly unknown on earth. It simply applies to language groups they would come into contact with as they witnessed.

Speaking in an "unknown tongue", receiving a gift to speak in a private language totally unknown among normal language on earth, is a phenomena that has a brain-induced emotional source. I went to a meeting with a friend who suddenly grabbed my neck and said 'taka taka taka taka taka taka taka', looked at me with a big smile as if he had accomplished something. I was amazed that a former Southern Baptist who had gotten involved in a psychological reprogramming course (apart from any Christian source) was now "speaking in tongues" at a tongue-talking name-it-and-claim-it-works-faith assembly. I didn't have the heart to tell him that he had lost his way. We parted company. If I see him again I will grab him by his throat and say 'Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe.'

It is all so straight-forward and simple, folks! We need Jesus, not psychologically-induced "tongues" and "prophesy".

:-)

stoomart

Sep 8th 2008, 09:31 PM

When you accept the life, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, you are not baptized..

Jesus said.. In John 3:3 Verily, verily, I say unto thee (Nicodemus), Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.. and next in John 3:5 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God...Dear brother Travis,

Not to get too far off-topic but when you read in the entire context of what Jesus was saying here, referring to verse 6, He is clearly speaking about our fleshly birth as new-born babies in the water birth. The spiritual birth pertains to when our old sinful self dies and we are raised as a new creation which is symbolized by the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus. We get baptized as a public proclamation to show what has taken place inside of ourselves.

I just wanted to make it clear that this verse is not talking about water baptism and spiritual baptism but our fleshly birth and spiritual birth.

In Christ's love, stoo

TravisJ

Sep 8th 2008, 09:34 PM

dispen4ever

Sep 8th 2008, 09:41 PM

Not to get too far off-topic but when you read in the entire context of what Jesus was saying here, referring to verse 6, He is clearly speaking about our fleshly birth as new-born babies in the water birth.

Thanks, Stoomart. It couldn't be any plainer.

TravisJ

Sep 8th 2008, 09:45 PM

Dear brother Travis,

Not to get too far off-topic but when you read in the entire context of what Jesus was saying here, referring to verse 6, He is clearly speaking about our fleshly birth as new-born babies in the water birth. The spiritual birth pertains to when our old sinful self dies and we are raised as a new creation which is symbolized by the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus. We get baptized as a public proclamation to show what has taken place inside of ourselves.

I just wanted to make it clear that this verse is not talking about water baptism and spiritual baptism but our fleshly birth and spiritual birth.

In Christ's love, stoo

No it does not... brother.. the women said earlier that she said believing on the death, burial, and resurrection was considered baptism... No if you read above, Nicodemus suppose to be ruler of the Jews... asking god how do i be born again... He had no clue, that is why in verse 4. he said "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? That is not what Jesus was saying, that is why in verse 5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.... That is how you will be born again.. and in Verse 7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again... So Jesus does show how to be born again... God is the only who can baptize you in the Holy Ghost..

You take it into a whole other consideration...

TravisJ

Sep 8th 2008, 09:47 PM

Don't worry guys.. I'll pray for you... I'll ask God to reveal the truth to you... I am not confused... I'll pray for your revealing...

God Bless you all... Love you brothers and sisters

dispen4ever

Sep 8th 2008, 09:50 PM

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God....

Jesus said that no one born can simply later enter into the Kingdom of God. S/he must be born from above. He told Nic that he wasn't going to make it without receiving Christ as Savior and Lord. Being born into Judaism wasn't the key. Jesus made it very clear to Nic what He was talking about:

"That which is born of the flesh*is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

*THAT is the connection to water birth, natural birth.

As far as praying for me, Trav .... I've already been prayed for. If you spiritually divide the Word of Truth you'll come to a much greater understanding of scripture.

Oregongrown

Sep 9th 2008, 12:34 AM

and I for one appreciate you sharing it. One thing we are given, I hope all get that, is discernment. I believe that the Holy Spirit shows all Truth and all lies. It is up to each person to examine their own relationship with Christ. Again, as I mentioned earlier somewhere, I can't encourage a person enough to read the Word, first asking for the compete and total guidance of the Holy Spirit into all Truth.

God bless, your sister in Christ, denise:)

Dear brothers and sisters,

The teaching of speaking in tongues as the required and/or exclusive manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a believer is absolutely contrary to edification Paul speaks about in 1 Cor. 14:12 - "Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel."

I view this doctrine to be equally as destructive and devastating as saying to someone who is terminally ill that they are dying because of their lack of faith, if only they had more faith they would be healed.

Paul exhorts us to seek making known the Word of God (teaching/prophesying) above all other gifts, as this, combined with love, is the most powerful weapon a follower of Christ can wield. He speaks in 1 Cor. 12 of the gifts of the Holy Spirit being wisdom, faith, miracles, prophecy, discernment, tongues, and interpretation of tongues. He also speaks in Galatians 5 of the fruits of the Spirit (true evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit) as being love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance.

Jesus gave a very strong word of warning for those who put everything into the display of signs and wonders and not the relationship with our heavenly Father in Matthew 7:

21. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23. And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Woe to them who place a heavy yoke around the neck of our neighbor that God himself did not prescribe. "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage"

In Christ's love, stoo

livingword26

Sep 9th 2008, 02:09 AM

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and perhaps get myself in trouble. But there are some things that need to be said. I make no judgements as to anyones salvation, or even their motives. I hope that anyone, not bringing an agenda, could read through the scriptures listed on this thread, and prayerfully come to an understanding as to the power of God, as it relates to the Spiritual gifts He gives to His children. God is not dead. He has not removed His Spirit from His people. He has not taken away all or part of the gifts He has given. Some would have you believe that He does not heal (a gift) anymore, but they think that they are teachers (a gift). They would have you believe that you should not be speaking in tongues, nor should you think you can prophecy by His Spirit. These gifts, and all the others listed in His word, are given to you to bring yourself, and others closer to Him. To protect, heal, build up and strengthen His children. Do not let yourself be robbed of what God has prepared for you, do not be afraid of His Holy Spirit, and what He has for you. Seek truth, seek Him, and He will deliver you from the evil one. The bible is true my friends. You need not try to explain away verses, or ideas that you are afraid of. God bless you all.

TravisJ

Sep 9th 2008, 02:30 AM

Your right, flesh is flesh... it can not understand what i have told you.. You answer you own problem... You believe its impossible to be born in the Spirit, the Holy Ghost is His Spirit and Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. And in John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I know the Spirit, God dwelleth in me... He is the one who brought me where i'm at...

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Chirst from the dead shall also quicken you mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

livingword26

Sep 9th 2008, 02:39 AM

Dear brother Travis,

Not to get too far off-topic but when you read in the entire context of what Jesus was saying here, referring to verse 6, He is clearly speaking about our fleshly birth as new-born babies in the water birth.

That would be a bit redundant wouldn't it? Since everyone on this planet must be born from a woman, making a proclamation that everyone has to do it to enter the kingdom of God seems a bit ridiculous doesn't it. Thats a bit like saying you cannot enter the kingdom of God unless you breathe oxygen and have skin. What would be the point?

TravisJ

Sep 9th 2008, 02:40 AM

I love all of you fellow Christians, I am just telling you what I got is real, I remember the day i got the Holy Ghost, which with evidence of speaking in tongues, I asked God if i did, though i knew i did, the devil was trying to tell me that wasn't real so i asked God and He told me that it was real. I just felt like i had to tell you guys... Goodnight and God Bless, don't want to keep people from not going to work tomorrow so have a good night and get some good rest.

AlanR742

Sep 9th 2008, 02:51 AM

David J. Stewart wrote an article about this, I see it is needed. Mumbling a bunch of random jibberish is NOT speaking in tongues (it's speaking like a fool, but not what the bible originally meant):

SPEAKING IN TONGUES HERESY
In Acts chapter 2, we read that the Apostles spoke in tongues (actual human languages). Is there a gift of tongues? Yes, there is a legitimate gift of speaking in tongues, but it is NOT the foolish jibber-jabber nonsense of the Assemblies of God, and wayward ministers like Creflo Dollar. The Bible could not be more clear if people would just read it at face value. Acts 2:6 clearly reads that “…every man heard them speak in his own language.” Did you reads that: IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE! As the Apostles spoke in tongues, the multitudes of people from at least sixteen different nations each heard the gospel presented IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE.
“And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.” -Acts 2:7-11
Notice the phrase in Acts 2:11, “our tongues“. The crowds heard the Apostles preach in their own native tongues, not some unknown “heavenly” jibber jabber. There was NEVER any “heavenly” languages spoken that no one understood and required an interpreter. There is a drastic difference between Biblical tongues and the heretical speaking in tongues of the Assemblies of God churches.
The “speaking in tongues” which the Assemblies of God and the Pentecostals foolishly practice are UNKNOWN tongues, not anything found on earth. Supposedly, those unknown tongues can only be interpreted by ONE spirit-filled member of the congregation. The Apostle Paul speaks common sense to us Corinthians 14:19,
“Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.”
Carnal believers try to imitate the gifts of the Spirit, but the gifts of God are not given for entertainment as the Pentecostals use them for. ALL the gifts of God for for ONE purpose, soul winning. The purpose of the tongues in Acts chapter 2 was to get people saved (and at least 3,000 people were saved on the day of Pentecost). Pentecost was a specimen day for all the world to see of what can happen when God’s children pray, trust God, and work together to spread the gospel. Please note that these Christians were all united in truth, not error. There were no false religions or liberal churches involved. It is WRONG for believers to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers or wayward religions like the Assemblies of God. I would rather be divided over truth than to be united by error. The Apostle Paul addressed the carnality of the church at Corinth:
“How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.”
The church of Corinth was the first unofficial Charismatic, Assemblies of God, Pentecostal, Apostolic Faith…etc church. They were an entertainment church, much like the Pentecostals churches today with their musical bands, speaking in tongues, healing services,…etc. It is unfortunate when churches have to deteriorate into entertainment centers to attract new members. They try to “spectacularize” Christianity. This is why the Assemblies of God religion is so popular, it offers a lot of entertainment (a lot of weird entertainment I might add).
The carnal believers in the Corinthian church were trying to reproduce the gift of tongues but they weren’t in any spiritual condition to see any gifts of the Spirit. What they really need was a Billy Sunday revival. 1st Corinthians 3:1 tells us that they were carnal. This church was in bad shape, a house divided. Some said they were with Apollos. Others said they were with Paul. Still others were claiming to be with Cephas (1st Corinthians 1:12). They were suing each other, eating meats offered to idols, allowing open adultery within the church. Should it be any surprise that they were also caught up in a speaking in the tongues heresy. The speaking in tongues practiced by the Charismatics, Pentecostals and Assemblies of God are of the devil.

livingword26

Sep 9th 2008, 03:19 AM

livingword26

Sep 9th 2008, 03:22 AM

There was NEVER any “heavenly” languages spoken that no one understood and required an interpreter.

1Co 12:30
(30) Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

1Co 14:5
(5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh, with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1Co 14:13
(13) Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

1Co 14:27
(27) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

1Co 14:28
(28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

livingword26

Sep 9th 2008, 04:04 AM

orinthian church were trying to reproduce the gift of tongues but they weren’t in any spiritual condition to see any gifts of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12, 13, and 14 are all instructions to the Corinthian church on how to use the spiritual gifts that the indeed did have.

wondercoolguy

Sep 9th 2008, 12:15 PM

If you actually read the whole chapter instead of taking tidibts and take the instances tongues were used you'll see that unknown tongue means if you started speaking german to me right now it would be unknown to me.

Each time in Acts when tongues were used the bible states the Holy Spirit fell on them. In Corins the Holy Spirit isn't used, what changed? In Acts when tongues were used there did not have to be and interper, what changed? The answer to both questions is the incorrect use of the gift.

The verse 1 Corn 14:14 was used did you even read that verse?!?
(14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. :crazy:

That is Paul telling you to not pray in tongues!:pray:

(15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

In the previous verse it says that your understanding is unfruitful. This verse tells you what to do. Pray with understanding and sing with understanding which means no tongues.:hmm:

VerticalReality

Sep 9th 2008, 12:32 PM

In the previous verse it says that your understanding is unfruitful. This verse tells you what to do. Pray with understanding and sing with understanding which means no tongues.:hmm:

Actually, Paul is stating there that he will both pray with his spirit and pray with understanding.

What was it that Paul described as the spirit praying previously in chapter 14?

Buck shot

Sep 9th 2008, 02:25 PM

Speaking in tongues never disappeared, it was just stopped being preached behind a pulpit because people put so much faith in what the preacher says... but when it comes to the Word, they do not understand... Just like today.. Speaking in tongues never just up and quit.. it just people just up and quit, for so long... And then God had to do something about it.. In San Francisco ... there was a massive earthquake happened... It shook the whole nation... That same year that church started in 1906 to get right with God, was the same year that earthquake happened in California...

:lol: read what you wrote...you believe that 1800 years went by and no one wrote about speaking in tongues because it was stopped being preached about :rofl:

Those guys at the day of pentacost had NEVER been preached to about tongues. God is not restricted to do something until folks get told about it...

And then you go on to say people just up and quit... so this gift from God that you are so proud is something you control. Is that what you are saying? I am trying to understand...

You have got to be kidding me... Evidence of the Holy Ghost is speaking in tongues.. For it is written, and you can say what you want but you cannot change the Word around to fit your own beliefs... It saddens me to see people who say they believe but don't have the Holy Ghost. You wanna know why? Read Acts 19:1-6 I see it happen just about every time i go to church, a person who isn't in church but hits the altar for the first time in there life and they begin to speak in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance... of course they still have to be baptized in Jesus name...

Trust me, i would never "kid" you about this. I have many pentacostals in my family who are like you and believe that you MUST speak in tongues to be saved. Sad that they believe for 1900 no one got saved :cry:. Sad that they must seek a sign as the Pharisees of long ago.

There are many of us who do not need "evidence" but believe by faith that Jesus paid for our sins.

Sounds like you also add another requirement other than being baptized in the Holy Ghost (speaking in tongues). They must be baptized in Jesus name also to be saved. Even though we know that the thief on the cross was not baptized but Jesus said he would be in Paradise.

Reminds me of a verse that goes like this " for by grace are ye saved thru faith, and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. " The gift is grace thru the blood of Jesus, not speaking in an unknown tongue that gets the comforter to reside within us.

Read Acts 8 starting at verse 26 about when Philip delivered the gospel to the Ethiopian. Especially verse 37 which is left out of many versions...

36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37And Philip said, If thou believes with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Nowhere in this chapter (even when Philip was casting out unclean spirits and healing folks in Samaria) is tongues mentioned even though folks got saved. I guess Philip just did not preach tongues so God could not give the gift then...

VerticalReality

Sep 9th 2008, 02:39 PM

Personally, I believe that speaking in tongues is in a person's control. I do not believe that the Holy Spirit physically takes control of a person's mouth and forces them to speak in tongues. I believe it is something that a person must allow the Holy Spirit to do by faith. I mean basically the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 14 is about Paul giving the proper instruction for order in the church with regard to speaking in tongues versus prophecy. If speaking in tongues was uncontrollable then why the need for the teaching? Is Paul teaching the Holy Spirit on the correct order of the church? If the Holy Spirit was physically taking control of a person then the person would have no say so in the matter. Therefore, Paul would not be teaching the person but rather the Spirit.

wondercoolguy

Sep 9th 2008, 02:40 PM

1 Corin {14:22} Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Which goes back to.

Acts {2:11} ...Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God

How can jibberish show the unbelievers the power of God? The power was shown by one man speaking multiple langauages at once and many people understanding.

Our purpose in life is to Praise God, Study to honor Him, and to Convert the Lost. I don't see how an out of control jibber fest is glorifying to God. Especially if a lost person is there. Church is supposed to be a place of worship, study, and a CLEAR presentation of the Word.:amen:

VerticalReality

Sep 9th 2008, 02:49 PM

Our purpose in life is to Praise God, Study to honor Him, and to Convert the Lost. I don't see how an out of control jibber fest is glorifying to God. Especially if a lost person is there. Church is supposed to be a place of worship, study, and a CLEAR presentation of the Word.:amen:

I have no problem with this statement. There is a lot of absolute ignorance going on in many churches, and a good portion of them are all in the flesh with the shabababa ratatata shonda ma conda la donda nonsense. However, the false signs do not eliminate the true manifestations of the Spirit.

There's nothing that irritates me more than going into a church where there are 50 people carrying on in tongues going completely against the direction that the Word of God gives.

wondercoolguy

Sep 9th 2008, 04:50 PM

I have no problem with this statement. There is a lot of absolute ignorance going on in many churches, and a good portion of them are all in the flesh with the shabababa ratatata shonda ma conda la donda nonsense. However, the false signs do not eliminate the true manifestations of the Spirit.

There's nothing that irritates me more than going into a church where there are 50 people carrying on in tongues going completely against the direction that the Word of God gives.

It's because they read out of the NIV and the NIV omitted 1 Corin 14 23:rolleyes::rofl:

VerticalReality

Sep 9th 2008, 05:06 PM

All of us need to be sure that when we want to pray for our brothers and sisters our motives are right. I hear this statement "I'll pray for you" but it is what I call a condescending prayer. In other words, when another doesn't agree with someones doctrine, they'll say "I'll pray for you" as if to say, you are wrong. God doesn't hear those prayers, I do not believe He does. It's like the man in the bible that said "I am so glad Im not like him Lord". This guy was so self-righteous that it didn't have a thing to do with God, only that he thought he was "better than". That may sound harsh but I couldn't say it if I hadn't experienced it in my own life. Im not saying this is you, Im just saying that God knows our hearts. My main prayer for others, whether they agree with me or not, is that God's will be done, in ALL things:)

denise:)

Good point, Denise . . .

If we are not praying in love who are we praying to?

I think the example you gave gives us an indication . . .

Luke 18:9-14
Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The Pharisee was basically just praying to himself in his own self-righteousness. Yes, he was thanking God, but in reality he was just patting himself on the back and boasting within himself. Praying with such a heart is going to accomplish nothing because God will not be in it.

Oregongrown

Sep 9th 2008, 05:08 PM

Speaking in tongues is proof, and evidence... Showing that you have the Holy Ghost... its not just someone just moving his tongue up in down.. But anyways i'll pray for you guys, I'll let God reveal unto you...

All of us need to be sure that when we want to pray for our brothers and sisters our motives are right. I hear this statement "I'll pray for you" but it is what I call a condescending prayer. In other words, when another doesn't agree with someones doctrine, they'll say "I'll pray for you" as if to say, you are wrong. God doesn't hear those prayers, I do not believe He does. There is no humility in that sort of "prayer". Its as if a person is saying "I know God but you don't". You may think that, but it is not loving to say it to someone. It's like the man in the bible that said "I am so glad Im not like him Lord". This guy was so self-righteous that it didn't have a thing to do with God, only that he thought he was "better than". That may sound harsh but I couldn't say it if I hadn't experienced it in my own life. Im not saying this is you, Im just saying that God knows our hearts. My main prayer for others, whether they agree with me or not, is that God's will be done, in ALL things:)

a sister in Christ, denise:)

A loving prayer example for us all to follow:

Luke 11:2-4
2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?version=nkjvp&book=Luk&chapter=011&navigated=yes#) So He said to them, "When you pray, say:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?version=nkjvp&book=Luk&chapter=011&navigated=yes#) Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?version=nkjvp&book=Luk&chapter=011&navigated=yes#) And forgive us our sins,
For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one."

From NKJV

dispen4ever

Sep 9th 2008, 06:32 PM

Travis............... wake up! I was born of the Spirit the precise moment I received Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. Each morning, each day I ask to be filled to the brim. That simply means "more of you, Lord, more of you. Help me to walk closely with you today." John baptized with the ritual cleansing called for in Judaism. Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit the moment you are saved. He doesn't hang around waiting for you to ask for the baptism at some later point. He is yours instantly! Your scripture quotes UNDERLINE my points!!

Your right, flesh is flesh... it can not understand what i have told you.. You answer you own problem... You believe its impossible to be born in the Spirit, the Holy Ghost is His Spirit and Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. And in John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I know the Spirit, God dwelleth in me... He is the one who brought me where i'm at...

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Chirst from the dead shall also quicken you mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

dispen4ever

Sep 9th 2008, 06:35 PM

dispen4ever

Sep 9th 2008, 06:39 PM

VerticalReality

Sep 9th 2008, 06:52 PM

GOD will understand him, though those standing about will not, since he is speaking in a language that they are not familiar with. Paul, fluent in several languages, could choose any one he wanted to for his prayer life and for singing.

If Paul is speaking from his own learned knowledge it isn't exactly a spiritual gift. Especially also considering the fact that Paul learned those languages before he ever even had the Spirit.

Additionally, Paul indicated in 1 Corinthians 14 that even he didn't understand what it was he was praying. This is not indicative of one who is choosing from a known language that he has learned to speak. If you are speaking a foreign language that you have learned you should also understand quite well what it is you are saying. I know a little bit of Spanish. Therefore, when I refer to something like dinero I know from my own understanding that I'm referring to money.

However, Paul declares in 1 Corinthians 14 that even he doesn't understand what he is praying.

1 Corinthians 14:18-19
I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

If Paul here is declaring that he would rather speak in the church a language which he understands then the tongues in which he is speaking of previously must be in languages he doesn't understand. Therefore, they cannot be languages that he learned through his studies.

wondercoolguy

Sep 9th 2008, 07:24 PM

Jesus said in Matthew

{6:7} But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do:] for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

{6:8} Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye
have need of, before ye ask him.

vain repetitions = greek word in this sentence is battalogeo which translates babbling.

That is :bible:

VerticalReality

Sep 9th 2008, 07:28 PM

Jesus said in Matthew

{6:7} But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do:] for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

vain repetitions = greek word in this sentence is battalogeo which translates babbling.

That is :bible:

If it is religous prayer that is not from the heart it is babbling. Those hypocrites that love to pray in Matthew 6 were those who liked to sound the trumpets when they prayed just to show how "religious" and "holy" they were. They spouted out nonsense prayers that meant absolutely nothing. They were not praying from their heart to the Father. They were rambling and babbling on in vain repetition thinking that their religious works earned them favor with God. In reality, they were blowing hot air.

Muslims, for example, use vain repetition when they pray. They pray a certain amount of times a day and it's the same thing over and over again. All it is to them is religious works trying to earn God's favor. His favor cannot be earned, and our righteousnesses are as filthy rags before Him.

TravisJ

Sep 9th 2008, 08:49 PM

Travis............... wake up! I was born of the Spirit the precise moment I received Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. Each morning, each day I ask to be filled to the brim. That simply means "more of you, Lord, more of you. Help me to walk closely with you today." John baptized with the ritual cleansing called for in Judaism. Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit the moment you are saved. He doesn't hang around waiting for you to ask for the baptism at some later point. He is yours instantly! Your scripture quotes UNDERLINE my points!!

Faith with out works is dead.... Yea, A man may say he has faith, shew me the faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works...

Acts 2:38 is the plan of salvation, You can't just believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and be saved. Wow doesn't everybody wish that was so easy... Well a lot of people do and they go about there own business, and live in the world and think they are saved because they believe in Jesus... Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is none other name under Heaven given among men; whereby we must be saved. Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues as of fire, and it sat upon each of them . Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the spirit gave them utterance...

You can try to put this in your own thoughts and change around everything but, I know what is real, I know speaking in tongues is evidence of the Holy Ghost, for it i was filled with it ,and i spake in other tongues as the Spirit gave me utterance I didn't know what I was saying...

You eyes are blind to what i have said ...

You know deep down inside, that believing in Jesus and taking him as your personal savior that you are saved, that there is more to it... There is something I have, that you mock , and the rest of you mock but I know it is true.

For God is my witness....

livingword26

Sep 9th 2008, 09:00 PM

livingword26

Sep 9th 2008, 09:02 PM

If you actually read the whole chapter instead of taking tidibts and take the instances tongues were used you'll see that unknown tongue means if you started speaking german to me right now it would be unknown to me.

1Co 14:2
(2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

livingword26

Sep 9th 2008, 09:09 PM

1Co 14:2
(2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Co 14:14-15
(14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
(15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

GOD will understand him, though those standing about will not, since he is speaking in a language that they are not familiar with. Paul, fluent in several languages, could choose any one he wanted to for his prayer life and for singing.

That is quite a fishing expedition. It does not say "a language that the people present were not familiar with". It says an "unknown language".
And, if Paul, is speaking in tongues, in a language that the people present do not know, isn't that the opposite of what you say all tongues are for? Speaking a different language so that those present would hear in their own language?

TravisJ

Sep 9th 2008, 09:22 PM

:lol: read what you wrote...you believe that 1800 years went by and no one wrote about speaking in tongues because it was stopped being preached about :rofl:

Those guys at the day of pentacost had NEVER been preached to about tongues. God is not restricted to do something until folks get told about it...

And then you go on to say people just up and quit... so this gift from God that you are so proud is something you control. Is that what you are saying? I am trying to understand...

Trust me, i would never "kid" you about this. I have many pentacostals in my family who are like you and believe that you MUST speak in tongues to be saved. Sad that they believe for 1900 no one got saved :cry:. Sad that they must seek a sign as the Pharisees of long ago.

There are many of us who do not need "evidence" but believe by faith that Jesus paid for our sins.

Sounds like you also add another requirement other than being baptized in the Holy Ghost (speaking in tongues). They must be baptized in Jesus name also to be saved. Even though we know that the thief on the cross was not baptized but Jesus said he would be in Paradise.

Reminds me of a verse that goes like this " for by grace are ye saved thru faith, and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. " The gift is grace thru the blood of Jesus, not speaking in an unknown tongue that gets the comforter to reside within us.

Read Acts 8 starting at verse 26 about when Philip delivered the gospel to the Ethiopian. Especially verse 37 which is left out of many versions...

36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37And Philip said, If thou believes with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Nowhere in this chapter (even when Philip was casting out unclean spirits and healing folks in Samaria) is tongues mentioned even though folks got saved. I guess Philip just did not preach tongues so God could not give the gift then...

You think you have salvation? You think being baptized in water is it? Read more than Acts 8:36-37 how about going to Acts 19:1-6, You know Peter had to be there for them to get the Holy Ghost. Paul and Peter went to Ephesus, and they found certain disciples.. and Read 2-6 2. He said unto them Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him (Paul), We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4. Then and he said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Every Apostle had the Holy Ghost, but Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom, Look at Acts 10:45-48 There is Peter again, amongst the Gentiles and the Holy Ghost fell on them , and 46. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter. (You still had to be baptized with water, after the Holy Ghost comes upon you)...

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Jesus gave Peter "the keys of the kingdom of heaven," not the keys to heaven.A key was a badge of authority (Luke 11:52), and then as now was used to open doors. Peter used the keys Christ gave him to open the door to the Jews on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2), to the Samaritans after the preaching of Philip (Acts 8:14-17), and to the Gentiles after the Lord had sent him a vision and an appeal from Cornelius (Acts 10).

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea (Jews), and in Samaria (Half-Jews), and unto the uttermost part of the earth (Gentiles). Peter went from Jerusalem, to Samaria, and to all the utter most part of the earth..

livingword26

Sep 9th 2008, 09:26 PM

Livingword.....

What would be the point of pointing out natural birth.... Wow. The natural man/woman is born in sin. S/he cannot inherit the Kingdom. S/he MUST be born from above, born again! The text JUMPS off the page to this Truth!

I'm aware of what being born again is speaking about. The partial (incorrect) quote that you left my explanation out of, was referring to water baptism. If your going to comment on my posts, please quote the entire part you are going to address. That will stop any future misconceptions.

TravisJ

Sep 9th 2008, 09:35 PM

All of us need to be sure that when we want to pray for our brothers and sisters our motives are right. I hear this statement "I'll pray for you" but it is what I call a condescending prayer. In other words, when another doesn't agree with someones doctrine, they'll say "I'll pray for you" as if to say, you are wrong. God doesn't hear those prayers, I do not believe He does. There is no humility in that sort of "prayer". Its as if a person is saying "I know God but you don't". You may think that, but it is not loving to say it to someone. It's like the man in the bible that said "I am so glad Im not like him Lord". This guy was so self-righteous that it didn't have a thing to do with God, only that he thought he was "better than". That may sound harsh but I couldn't say it if I hadn't experienced it in my own life. Im not saying this is you, Im just saying that God knows our hearts. My main prayer for others, whether they agree with me or not, is that God's will be done, in ALL things:)

a sister in Christ, denise:)

A loving prayer example for us all to follow:

Luke 11:2-4
2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?version=nkjvp&book=Luk&chapter=011&navigated=yes#) So He said to them, "When you pray, say:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?version=nkjvp&book=Luk&chapter=011&navigated=yes#) Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?version=nkjvp&book=Luk&chapter=011&navigated=yes#) And forgive us our sins,
For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one."

From NKJV

God bless you sister... but what its not that he does not agree with me... Its what is written, Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my Word shall never pass away.. I know what is real... I just ask God to reveal to him what he had revealed to me... I love all my brothers and sisters...

TravisJ

Sep 9th 2008, 09:41 PM

I'm aware of what being born again is speaking about. The partial quote that you left my explanation out of, was referring to water baptism. If your going to comment on my posts, please quote the entire part you are going to address. That will stop any future misconceptions.

What he was talking about in John 3:6 That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

We have to live in the Spirit.. and you see in verse 6. that S is capitalized for a reason. same goes with verse 5. That is the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit. Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I was trying to quote the other person sorry livingword.. :)

Oregongrown

Sep 9th 2008, 09:49 PM

God bless you sister... but what its not that he does not agree with me... Its what is written, Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my Word shall never pass away.. I know what is real... I just ask God to reveal to him what he had revealed to me... I love all my brothers and sisters...

we are brothers and sisters in Christ if we honestly believe that "they" haven't had God reveal to them what He's revealed to us? Which from what you have stated, you do not believe the Holy Spirit lives in anyone that does not speak in tongues. And if the Holy Spirit does not live in someone then they are not of the Body of Christ and therefor, not our brothers and sisters. Now maybe I have misunderstood, Im getting old ya know:) So let me ask you this to clear things up for me.

Do you believe that everyone who has been born-again, indwelled by the Holy Spirit so that they can carry out God's Will(they cannot without the Holy Spirit is what I believe), must have the ability to speak in tongues?

God bless, a sister in Christ, denise

BroRog

Sep 9th 2008, 09:51 PM

I don't think Paul meant to say no one understands. First of all, the one speaking in tongues understands.

One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. . . .

and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

In this we understand Paul's explicit assertion that the person speaking in tongues can interpret his or her own tongues. The command is clear. If a person wants to speak in tongues, he or she must also interpret.

If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What then?

Paul isn't saying he does this. He is asking a rhetorical question. He answers his own question in the next sentence.

I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

That's what Paul actually does. Unlike those who are doing it wrong, his own prayer in a tongue is not unfruitful to his mind. When Paul prays in tongues, he knows what he is saying.

TravisJ

Sep 9th 2008, 10:03 PM

we are brothers and sisters in Christ if we honestly believe that "they" haven't had God reveal to them what He's revealed to us? Which from what you have stated, you do not believe the Holy Spirit lives in anyone that does not speak in tongues. And if the Holy Spirit does not live in someone then they are not of the Body of Christ and therefor, not our brothers and sisters. Now maybe I have misunderstood, Im getting old ya know:) So let me ask you this to clear things up for me.

Do you believe that everyone who has been born-again, indwelled by the Holy Spirit so that they can carry out God's Will(they cannot without the Holy Spirit is what I believe), must have the ability to speak in tongues?

God bless, a sister in Christ, denise

lol.. very smart denise... evidence of the Holy Ghost is speaking in tongues... you have to be born again in the water and the spirit which is the Holy Ghost...Acts 2:3 they had cloven tongues as of fire, each and every one of them that were in the upper room which was 120, and Acts 2:4 and they all were filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. I have said that many of times, but it saidl all were filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues...

livingword26

Sep 9th 2008, 10:20 PM

I don't think Paul meant to say no one understands. First of all, the one speaking in tongues understands.

You don't think Paul meant to say no one understands? Do you mean that it was an accident, or just that it means something other than what it says?

1Co 14:2
(2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Co 14:14
(14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

In this we understand Paul's explicit assertion that the person speaking in tongues can interpret his or her own tongues. The command is clear. If a person wants to speak in tongues, he or she must also interpret.

1Co 12:30
(30) Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What then?

Paul isn't saying he does this. He is asking a rhetorical question. He answers his own question in the next sentence.

I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

That's what Paul actually does. Unlike those who are doing it wrong, his own prayer in a tongue is not unfruitful to his mind. When Paul prays in tongues, he knows what he is saying.Again, it doesn't mean what it says. "What then?" is a rhetorical question. But the first sentence is just a statement of truth. Like the rest of the bible. Trying to make a verse say something other than what it says is dangerous at best. Paul states plainly, that when he prays or sings with his Spirit, he does not understand, but when he prays and sings with his mind, he does.

livingword26

Sep 9th 2008, 10:48 PM

One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. . . .

and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

I'm sure that it was an oversight that you left out part of verse 5. I'll post it for you.

1Co 14:4-5
(4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
(5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh, with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

livingword26

Sep 9th 2008, 10:53 PM

Again, not pointed at anyone in particular, but very relevant I believe.

Act 2:17-20
(17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
(18) And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
(19) And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke:
(20) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

2Ti 3:1-7
(1) This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
(2) For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
(3) Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
(4) Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
(5) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
(6) For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
(7) Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

livingword26

Sep 9th 2008, 11:07 PM

The following is a short excerpt from "Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible".

2Ti 3:5
(5) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2Ti 3:5 -
Having a form of godliness - The original word μορφωσις signifies a draught, sketch, or summary, and will apply well to those who have all their religion in their creed, confession of faith, catechism, bodies of divinity, etc., while destitute of the life of God in their souls; and are not only destitute of this life, but deny that such life or power is here to be experienced or known.

BroRog

Sep 9th 2008, 11:12 PM

You don't think Paul meant to say no one understands? Do you mean that it was an accident, or just that it means something other than what it says?

Paul opens chapter 14 repeating his exhortation to love each other followed by another exhortation to seek the spiritual gifts but "especially that you may prophesy." Following that, he explains why he prefers prophecy over speaking in tongues. The essential and critical difference between a prophetic message and a message delivered in tongues is that the church can readily understand the prophetic word but a message spoken in tongues requires interpretation. When he says, "no one understands" he doesn't mean "no human alive can understand it."

First of all, the person giving the message in tongues understands it. As he says, "the one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself." The only way I can edify myself is if I understand what I intend to say. If I don't know what I intend to say, I can't edify myself let alone the rest of the church. If I set about to build you up or give you encouragement, my word of encouragement won't do you much good if you don't understand what I am saying. So, when he says "no one understands" he excepts the person speaking.

Moreover, he asserts that prophecy is much greater than speaking in tongues "unless he interprets", which also indicates that the one speaking in a tongue can interpret what he intended to say. This idea that the one speaking in a tongue can not understand what he or she intended to say runs contrary to the clear teaching of scripture.

Second, he commands that a man must refrain from speaking in tongues in church unless someone can interpret. If someone else can interpret, then someone other than the person speaking can understand.

So then, the person speaking understands and the translator also understands. In this we understand that when Paul says "no one understands" he is excepting the person speaking and the translator.

Apparently, Paul assumes that once the message has been interpreted, either by the speaker himself or a translator, the message moves from the category of "tongues" into the category of "prophecy". Whether the prophet speaks in a common language or with a translator, once the translation has been completed, there is no essential difference. Either way, the congregation has been informed.

1Co 14:14
(14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Again, it doesn't mean what it says. "What then?" is a rhetorical question. But the first sentence is just a statement of truth. Like the rest of the bible. Trying to make a verse say something other than what it says is dangerous at best.

It's certainly dangerous to the false teaching given by those who say Paul prayed with an unfruitful mind. But Paul isn't saying that HE prays in his spirit while his mind is unfruitful. The sentence is a conditional statement, which he intends for the reader to contrast with the next sentence.

Paul doesn't pray in the spirit while his mind remains unfruitful. We know this because he tells us that he does the opposite, saying " I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also . . ." This is what Paul ACTUALLY does. As he says, if he were to pray in an unknown tongue, which he doesn't, then his mind would be unfruitful. But he prays with both his spirit and his mind, not one or the other.

livingword26

Sep 9th 2008, 11:18 PM

Paul doesn't pray in the spirit while his mind remains unfruitful.

1Co 14:14
(14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

BroRog

Sep 9th 2008, 11:23 PM

1Co 14:14
(14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

livingword26

Sep 9th 2008, 11:26 PM

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Thats right. Couldn't be clearer

dispen4ever

Sep 10th 2008, 12:04 AM

1 Corinthians 14:18-19
I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

If Paul here is declaring that he would rather speak in the church a language which he understands then the tongues in which he is speaking of previously must be in languages he doesn't understand. Therefore, they cannot be languages that he learned through his studies.

Paul is simply saying that although he could speak in many known languages he would rather speak 5 words in one that everyone in the congregation would understand. End of story.

livingword26

Sep 10th 2008, 12:10 AM

Paul is simply saying that although he could speak in many known languages he would rather speak 5 words in one that everyone in the congregation would understand. End of story.

1 Corinthians 14:18-19
I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

What he says is, that he speaks in tongues, but when he is in church he would rather pray with his understanding. Which means,when he prays in tongues, he is not praying with his understanding.

dispen4ever

Sep 10th 2008, 12:20 AM

Faith with out works is dead.... Yea, A man may say he has faith, shew me the faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works...

You need to read who James was writing to. You need to understand what he was writing about. James shows no trace of the larger revelations concerning the church and the distinctive doctrines of grace made through the Apostle Paul, nor even of the discussion concerning the relation of Gentile converts to the law of Moses, which culminated in the first council (Acts 15), over which James presided. His message is directed, therefore, to Jews, primarily Jewish Christians, being loaded with Jewish concepts.

The church began with such Acts 2:5-11 and James, who seems not to have left Jerusalem, would feel a particular pastoral responsibility for these scattered sheep. They still resorted to the synagogues, or called their own assemblies by that name (James 2:2 where "assembly" is "synagogue" in the Greek.) In James 2:1-8 they were still holding the synagogue courts for the trial of causes arising amongst themselves. Neither Galatians nor Romans had been written at this point(!), therefore it could not possibly have been written as a challenge to Paul's doctrine of justification by grace through faith alone. The theme of James is "religion" (threskeia), a system of organized beliefs designed to PROVE faith through organized belief, ala the RC today. His style is said to be that of the OT "Wisdom" books.

Acts 2:38 is the plan of salvation, You can't just believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and be saved.

THIS is utterly untrue. Acts 2:38 is directed to the Jews who Peter thought had murdered Jesus. Read 36 and 37. Jesus was not murdered. His sacrifice was God's wonderful plan to redeem those who are lost. The water baptism pictured here is for those Jews who needed to REPENT (change their mind), and then follow-up with ritual washing in accordance with Jewish tradition. It was JOHN'S baptism. Baptism is an outward sign of an inward event, a CHANGE of mind. It has zero to do with salvation. I would not discourage anyone from being baptized, however, simply as a public profession of what has already taken place: Salvation by grace through faith, the GIFT of God, not of anything you or I can do (works). What does scripture say? John 3:16-17; Acts 16:30; Romans 10:8-13.

Oregongrown

Sep 10th 2008, 12:23 AM

lol.. very smart denise... evidence of the Holy Ghost is speaking in tongues... you have to be born again in the water and the spirit which is the Holy Ghost...Acts 2:3 they had cloven tongues as of fire, each and every one of them that were in the upper room which was 120, and Acts 2:4 and they all were filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. I have said that many of times, but it saidl all were filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues...

but I did not agree that the "only" evidence of being baptised in the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues. I did ask you a question though and it looks like the answer to that quetion is "yes". So to be clear, you do not believe the Holy Spirit lives in me(or anyone else that does not speak in tongues)as I do not speak in tongues? And, I have not been baptised in the Holy Spirit. Is that what you are saying to me Travis? I want to be clear on this with you ok?

a sister in Christ, denise :)

TravisJ

Sep 10th 2008, 12:58 AM

You need to read who James was writing to. You need to understand what he was writing about. James shows no trace of the larger revelations concerning the church and the distinctive doctrines of grace made through the Apostle Paul, nor even of the discussion concerning the relation of Gentile converts to the law of Moses, which culminated in the first council (Acts 15), over which James presided. His message is directed, therefore, to Jews, primarily Jewish Christians, being loaded with Jewish concepts.

The church began with such Acts 2:5-11 and James, who seems not to have left Jerusalem, would feel a particular pastoral responsibility for these scattered sheep. They still resorted to the synagogues, or called their own assemblies by that name (James 2:2 where "assembly" is "synagogue" in the Greek.) In James 2:1-8 they were still holding the synagogue courts for the trial of causes arising amongst themselves. Neither Galatians nor Romans had been written at this point(!), therefore it could not possibly have been written as a challenge to Paul's doctrine of justification by grace through faith alone. The theme of James is "religion" (threskeia), a system of organized beliefs designed to PROVE faith through organized belief, ala the RC today. His style is said to be that of the OT "Wisdom" books.

THIS is utterly untrue. Acts 2:38 is directed to the Jews who Peter thought had murdered Jesus. Read 36 and 37. Jesus was not murdered. His sacrifice was God's wonderful plan to redeem those who are lost. The water baptism pictured here is for those Jews who needed to REPENT (change their mind), and then follow-up with ritual washing in accordance with Jewish tradition. It was JOHN'S baptism. Baptism is an outward sign of an inward event, a CHANGE of mind. It has zero to do with salvation. I would not discourage anyone from being baptized, however, simply as a public profession of what has already taken place: Salvation by grace through faith, the GIFT of God, not of anything you or I can do (works). What does scripture say? John 3:16-17; Acts 16:30; Romans 10:8-13.

I don't know who tells you this but you are incorrect Acts 2:38 is for all people... That is why he(Peter) started in Jerusalem and in the rest of Judea (Jews), then to Samaria (Half-Jews) , then to all the uttermost parts of the world (Gentiles). Baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ, and they were being filled with Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues... You can not say this is only for Jews.. for Salvation is for everybody... Acts 2:38 is the plan of salvation... 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and your children, and to those that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call... Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men; whereby we must be saved.. That is salvation...

You have to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved... yes... to be saved... but guess what, that does not mean your saved because you say you believe... That is why Paul and Peter were baptizing with water in Jesus Christ, and they being filled with the Holy Ghost.

dispen4ever

Sep 10th 2008, 01:00 AM

dispen4ever

Sep 10th 2008, 01:04 AM

I don't know who tells you this

How do I know, the Bible tells me so......

(Is it possible to create musical notes in these boxes?)

:-)

TravisJ

Sep 10th 2008, 01:07 AM

but I did not agree that the "only" evidence of being baptised in the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues. I did ask you a question though and it looks like the answer to that quetion is "yes". So to be clear, you do not believe the Holy Spirit lives in me(or anyone else that does not speak in tongues)as I do not speak in tongues? And, I have not been baptised in the Holy Spirit. Is that what you are saying to me Travis? I want to be clear on this with you ok?

a sister in Christ, denise :)

I can not say if you do or not, That why i didn't answer that question correctly... I am not condemning you or anybody.. I do not judge you, or anybody, I do not think I am better than anybody, for all I am is a sinner saved by grace.... But when it comes to Salvation. Evidence of the Holy Ghost is speaking in tongues.. I am not going to compromise it because I know it is evidence of the Holy Ghost inside of you. Everywhere i gave scripture to back what i said up about speaking in tongues... Acts 2:3-4 , Acts 10:45-48, Acts 19 1-6, You see every one of those places Peter was there they all spake in tongues... As i posted earlier Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven...

TravisJ

Sep 10th 2008, 01:11 AM

How do I know, the Bible tells me so......

(Is it possible to create musical notes in these boxes?)

:-)

The Bible tells me as well, the bible also says Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under Heaven given among men; whereby we must be saved.. That salvation is Acts 2:38.. and what I have is real and it is in the Bible... You just don't want to believe on it.. You want to think you are saved by just believing on the Lord Jesus.. and without His spirit..

livingword26

Sep 10th 2008, 01:11 AM

IF

"I" pray in an unknown tongue........... IF

Paul is using himself as an example. We do it all the time. We say "You have to be smart to pass the test." "You" in context is anyone who plans to take the test, not just the person to whom the remark is addressed. It is a commentary! "'I' would not want to lose my wallet" does not mean that I have lost it. In context it is in response to someone who has. Paul says that if he did this in addressing the church no one would know what he was preaching/teaching!

If I walk out in front of a moving bus, I may get killed.
If I go to work everyday, I may get paid.
If I go to bed late, I will be tired in the moring.
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. (NASB)

In other words, IF I pray, audibly, when the church is assembled together, in a language unknown to them, the gift and inspiration which the spirit gives me does its part, but only to myself. No outward benefit comes to the church by my prayers.

:-)That would be a good conclusion if the verse said:

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but the church doesn't understand.

But that is not what it says. it says

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful

'Pauls mind is unfruitful', not, 'Pauls congregation does not understand'.

cdo

Sep 10th 2008, 01:44 AM

BroRog

Sep 10th 2008, 01:55 AM

If I walk out in front of a moving bus, I may get killed.
If I go to work everyday, I may get paid.
If I go to bed late, I will be tired in the moring.
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful

That would be a good conclusion if the verse said:

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but the church doesn't understand.

But that is not what it says. it says

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful

'Pauls mind is unfruitful', not, 'Pauls congregation does not understand'.

Your view would make sense if Paul said "when" as in "when I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful." But he used the word "if." And since he followed his conditional statement with the indicative in the opposite, then we understand that he really does NOT do the former but he does the latter instead.

Oregongrown

Sep 10th 2008, 01:56 AM

if tongues were in an unknown language to any other human on the face of the Earth, they would not be much of a gift, would they?

a sister in Christ, denise

Thats right. Couldn't be clearer

livingword26

Sep 10th 2008, 02:06 AM

Your view would make sense if Paul said "when" as in "when I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful." But he used the word "if." And since he followed his conditional statement with the indicative in the opposite, then we understand that he really does NOT do the former but he does the latter instead.

Its really not a mystery that men speak in unknown tongues, (see below). So I guess the issue is whether or not Paul does. But does that really matter. He says that if he did, then his understanding would be unfruitful, and isn't that what we are debating?

1Co 14:2
(2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Co 14:4
(4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1Co 14:13
(13) Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

1Co 14:27
(27) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

Oregongrown

Sep 10th 2008, 02:18 AM

Paul is simply saying that although he could speak in many known languages he would rather speak 5 words in one that everyone in the congregation would understand. End of story. We all must look at "all" the Word. It all fits together and if you leave out part you will never have the whole Truth, and anything added to the Word is man-made. God said don't do that, add or take away in Rev. God bless, your sister in Christ, denise

Oregongrown

Sep 10th 2008, 02:29 AM

A commentary by John Gill on 1 Cor 14:2. I looked it up because I wanted some affirmation on what I think it is saying. This helped me a lot. God bless, ysic, denise:)

1 Corinthians 14:2

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue…
Or with tongues, as some copies and the Ethiopic version read: Dr. Lightfoot thinks, that the Hebrew tongue, which was become a dead language, and understood but by few, is here meant, and that not without reason; seeing the public prayers, preaching, and singing of psalms among the Jews, were in this languages F24 (http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=1co&chapter=014&verse=002#x); in imitation of whom, such ministers, who had the gift of speaking this language, read the Scriptures, preached, prayed, and sung psalms in it, which were no ways to the edification of the people, who understood it not; upon which account the apostle recommends prophesying, praying, and singing, in a language that was understood: otherwise he
speaketh not unto men;
to the understanding, profit, and edification of men: but unto God: to his praise and glory, and he only knowing, who knows all languages, and every word in the tongue what is said; excepting himself, unless there should be any present capable of interpreting:
for no man understandeth him:
or "heareth him": that is, hears him, so as to understand him; he may hear a sound, but he cannot tell the meaning of it, and so it is of no use and advantage to him: howbeit in the Spirit he speaketh mysteries;
though under the influence and by the extraordinary gift of the Spirit he has, and to his own Spirit and understanding, and with great affection and devotion within himself, he speaks of the deep things of God, and the mysteries of his grace, the most glorious truths of the Gospel, yet the meaning of his voice and words not being known, he is a barbarian to them that hear him; and though what he delivers are truths of the greatest importance, they are a mere jargon to others, being unintelligible.

Its really not a mystery that men speak in unknown tongues, (see below). So I guess the issue is whether or not Paul does. But does that really matter. He says that if he did, then his understanding would be unfruitful, and isn't that what we are debating?

1Co 14:2
(2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Co 14:4
(4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1Co 14:13
(13) Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

1Co 14:27
(27) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

livingword26

Sep 10th 2008, 02:48 AM

A commentary by John Gill on 1 Cor 14:2. I looked it up because I wanted some affirmation on what I think it is saying. This helped me a lot. God bless, ysic, denise:)

1 Corinthians 14:2

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue…
Or with tongues, as some copies and the Ethiopic version read: Dr. Lightfoot thinks, that the Hebrew tongue, which was become a dead language, and understood but by few, is here meant, and that not without reason; seeing the public prayers, preaching, and singing of psalms among the Jews, were in this languages F24 (http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=1co&chapter=014&verse=002#x); in imitation of whom, such ministers, who had the gift of speaking this language, read the Scriptures, preached, prayed, and sung psalms in it, which were no ways to the edification of the people, who understood it not; upon which account the apostle recommends prophesying, praying, and singing, in a language that was understood: otherwise he
speaketh not unto men;
to the understanding, profit, and edification of men: but unto God: to his praise and glory, and he only knowing, who knows all languages, and every word in the tongue what is said; excepting himself, unless there should be any present capable of interpreting:
for no man understandeth him:
or "heareth him": that is, hears him, so as to understand him; he may hear a sound, but he cannot tell the meaning of it, and so it is of no use and advantage to him: howbeit in the Spirit he speaketh mysteries;
though under the influence and by the extraordinary gift of the Spirit he has, and to his own Spirit and understanding, and with great affection and devotion within himself, he speaks of the deep things of God, and the mysteries of his grace, the most glorious truths of the Gospel, yet the meaning of his voice and words not being known, he is a barbarian to them that hear him; and though what he delivers are truths of the greatest importance, they are a mere jargon to others, being unintelligible.

I have my doubts that Hebrew would have been the "unknown tongue". If it were any other group of poeple, perhaps, but the O.T. Scriptures were/are in Hebrew.

1Co 14:2
(2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Oregongrown

Sep 10th 2008, 03:14 AM

I have my doubts that Hebrew would have been the "unknown tongue". If it were any other group of poeple, perhaps, but the O.T. Scriptures were/are in Hebrew.

were actually written in 3 different languages, hebrew, greek and one other that isn't coming to me at the moment. Oh yep, Aramaic. God bless, ysic, denise

BroRog

Sep 10th 2008, 04:49 AM

Its really not a mystery that men speak in unknown tongues, (see below). So I guess the issue is whether or not Paul does. But does that really matter. He says that if he did, then his understanding would be unfruitful, and isn't that what we are debating?

1Co 14:2
(2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Co 14:4
(4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1Co 14:13
(13) Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

1Co 14:27
(27) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

Here is how I see the debate. There are two major ways people tend to look at this.

1. The gift of tongues is the gift of translation. A man (or woman) sets out to put his thoughts into his own words, but instead of his own words, the words of a foreign language comes out of his mouth.

2. The gift of tongues is the gift of channeling. A man (or woman) is a medium, channeling the Holy Spirit, who speaks through the man. The man has no idea at all what he just said.

These two are completely different pictures. The two are mutually exclusive and incompatible with each other. To believe the first is to reject the second; to believe the second is to reject the first.

I believe the correct view, the one that Paul believes, is the first one. Many Pentecostals believe the second version. My posts are an attempt to demonstrate the error of the second version and why the first version fits the scriptural evidence.

I'm doing this because I love Christians and I want to help in the effort to correct erroneous teaching, promote correct Bible study methodology, and help others understand the Bible.

SFASH

Sep 10th 2008, 05:11 AM

Being in the mission field, I find myself constantly in competition with those places that teach that tongues is necessary for salvation (believe it or not, its everywhere these days). A very unfortunate error!

Not all believers in Paul's day spoke in tongues 1Co 12:30

The three 'sign' gifts of 1Co 13:8: Prophecies, tongues, and knowledge will fail, cease, and vanish away.

v11: "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things..."
No one is able to dogmatically dictate when precisely these things are to fade. That is why the Pentecostal church has always been in fellowship with the conservative church, despite their differing opinion on these matters. (speaking of the nearly 100 year-old Pentecostal church founded on Azuza st. in 1917).

1Co. 14:37 admonishes that the things mentioned in this chapter are commandments of the Lord.

v37b "forbid not to speak with tongues."

ADDED: Please forgive my tendency to not post the complete message. The only time tongues without interpretation is suggested as valid by the Apostle is 1Co 14:14: "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." And in v.28 "But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church: and let him speak to himself, and to God."

If tongues were not languages, there would be no requirement for an interpreter. Acts 2:4 (same tongues) "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

Lady Ashanti

Sep 10th 2008, 06:36 AM

Scripture teaches that after becoming “born again”, one should receive the Holy Ghost “not many hence”, not to long afterwards. There are several reasons why this is important, and several reasons that the enemy fights this “baptism” with ignorance, insults, and erroneous information even within church circles.

One reason is that your spirit prays in a Holy language directly to the Lord which no one can understand but the Lord.

Let’s look at this…

A-Old Testament references…Isaiah 28:11...Isaiah 33:19...Joel 2: 28-29

B-Jesus said His believers would speak…Mark 16:17

C-Jesus told them to wait for power…Luke 24:49…Acts 1:8

D-Holy Ghost is the Lord, a manifestation of the Lord, not an “it”…Acts 13:2...I Corinthians 3:17...I John 5:7...[Genesis 1-3, 26 with John 1:1-15 with Luke 3: 21-22].

E-A free Gift…Luke 11: 11-13...Acts 5:32

F-Why tongues?:
1-No one can control the tongue…James 3: 8, [except God], verses 5-12
2-Scripture teaches tongues is the evidence…Acts 2:3,4,11...I Corinthians 14: 22a
3-Everyone who received the Holy Ghost had evidence…Acts 10:44- 46...Acts 19:6...Acts 8:15-19 [saw].
4-Gentiles given…Acts 11: 12-18
5-Jesus had manifestation…Matthew 27:46...Acts 10:38
6-Should pray in the Holy Ghost often…I Corinthians 14:15...Jude 20...I Corinthians 14:18.

G-Clear up the confusion:
1-Some teach that one gets Holy Ghost at salvation, but they do not get the “baptism” in the Holy Ghost:
*John 14:17...with at time of salvation, in at baptism of Holy Ghost.
*John20:22...After Jesus was resurrected, He told the disciples to “receive the Holy Ghost”,, but He still said they [B]still had to go to the Upper Room for the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

2-Some teach that the Holy Ghost is not for everyone, or that “it” should be a language spoken somewhere in the world, but they are confusing scriptures regarding "tongues". There are three [3] types of tongues:
*Gift of tongues - I Corinthians 12:10b, 28b…given by the Holy Ghost as He wills, not for all, [there will be an interpretation of tongues].
*Language to magnify God - Acts 2: 11...initial language with infilling, and may be at times of ministry/praise.
*Prayer Language - I Corinthians 14: 14...Romans 8:26...prayer language, [which no one understands but God].

3-Some teach that tongues are demonic, need to be careful of blaspheming:
*Matthew 12:31-32...Mark 3: 29...Luke 12:10

H- How does one receive?
1-Repent.
2-Believe.
3-Receive.
4-Forget those around you.
5-Worship the Lord continuously.
6-Don’t try to fix your tongue when the Spirit of the Lord begins to take it over!
7-You have got to hear yourself speak, [not be told you did].

I hope these scriptures bring clarity...:hug:

“Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believe”

SFASH

Sep 10th 2008, 08:49 AM

Lady Ashanti

There is no such verse in the Bible that teaches that after becoming "born again," one should receive the Holy Ghost "not many (days?) hence

There is also nothing in the Bible about a Holy language.

Is 28:11 as you referenced, speaks of the presence of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament, as identified by tongues. Nobody here will debate the validity of tongues. (!co 14:12) nor of the Holy Spirit.

Is 33:19 is not a reference to New Testament tongues, nor a prophecy about tongues.

Joel 2:28 is the celebrated prophecy of the coming of the Holy Spirit fulfilled on Pentecost day Act 2:18,19 (as a curiosity, one may notice the absence of the mention of tongues in this prophecy).

Mark 16:17 yes, Jesus said there will be signs and "they shall speak in new tongues."

Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8 Jesus promises the coming of the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit would give them Power (EXOUSIA, authority) to be witnesses to Christ.

No question about it, the Holy Spirit is God, not an "it" as you amply referenced.

And the Holy Spirit is a free gift: Lk11:11, Acts 5:32 (given to them that obey Him).

James 3:8, has nothing to do with tongues, but is rather an admonition about the destructive power of the human tongue.

Acts 2:3,4,11 as you cited, details just one of the signs of Pentecost... actually there were three: 1. The sound from heaven as of a rushing, mighty wind, 2. Cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each one of them, and 3. the ability to speak in other men's languages (already covered). Three 'signs,' not just one.

1Co 14:22 tongues is a sign to the unbeliever. This has nothing to do with the evidence of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life..it is only "one" such sign among several and is a sign to the unbeliever alone. They did not all speak in tongues 1Co 12:30 Tongues, in this instance, was manifested within the church, but not in every believer.

There was a time in the days and years following Pentecost when Gentiles and Jews alike received manifestations of the Holy Spirit including tongues.

Your reference to Mt 27:46 as Jesus' manifestation of the gift of tongues is incorrect. "E-li, E-li, la'ma sabach-tha-ni?' Jesus was quoting Ps 22:1 in Aramaic.

To address some of your many other points:

The Bible teaches very plainly that you get the Holy Spirit at salvation (in your words) but you distinguish that from the "baptism" in the Holy Ghost, where the Bible makes no such distinction.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Spirit of promise." Eph 1:13 and further: "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.." v14

There is a point that many struggle with in Acts, during the early, post-Pentecost days where men, who had been baptised unto repentance or the baptism of John, were brought to the baptism of the Holy Spirit:
Acts: 10:37, 13:24, 18:25,19:3,4 But they were in all actuality coming to Christ for salvation.

Your point 'G'-clear up confusion:
Jn14:17 is a promise of the Spirit's coming to the Apostles and believers.
Jn 20:22 When Jesus ''breathed on them" he was annointing them with the Spirit to perform their Apostolic duties.

point 2
No one here would suggest that the Holy Spirit is not for everyone (in the faith). But scripture does not teach that 'tongues' are for everyone.
Your verse 1 Co 12:10 actually proves that tongues only one out of several gifts. Therefore tongues cannot be a sign of salvation.

Your 'language to magnify' God Acts 2:11 is the same gift as demonstrated in verse 6. They were not just speaking other languages, but were, in fact, preaching the Gospel in other languages. (nice point!)

"Prayer Lanquage" is a non-scriptural term. Paul makes no distinction between this praying in an unknown tongue and the gift of tongues in general. This is very important because people are being led to believe that they must have this special prayer ability before they are actually filled with the Holy Spirit. Many people believe they are special because they do or that someone else is out of God's will because they do not manifest this ability.

The gift of Charity (agape) is actually much, much more important, and is a 'remaining' spritual gift. To be without Charity and yet to speak in tongues? 1Co 13:1 In this text, Charity is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit where tongues may in fact be invalid.

Anybody who teaches that (biblical) tongues are demonic as you say, does indeed need to be careful. (stressing 'Biblical').

And to forbid the speaking of (Biblical) tongues is to disobey the commandment of God. 1Co 14:37b

livingword26

Sep 10th 2008, 10:26 AM

Here is how I see the debate. There are two major ways people tend to look at this.

1. The gift of tongues is the gift of translation. A man (or woman) sets out to put his thoughts into his own words, but instead of his own words, the words of a foreign language comes out of his mouth.

2. The gift of tongues is the gift of channeling. A man (or woman) is a medium, channeling the Holy Spirit, who speaks through the man. The man has no idea at all what he just said.

These two are completely different pictures. The two are mutually exclusive and incompatible with each other. To believe the first is to reject the second; to believe the second is to reject the first.

I believe the correct view, the one that Paul believes, is the first one. Many Pentecostals believe the second version. My posts are an attempt to demonstrate the error of the second version and why the first version fits the scriptural evidence.

I'm doing this because I love Christians and I want to help in the effort to correct erroneous teaching, promote correct Bible study methodology, and help others understand the Bible.

The gift of tongues is both a known and an unknown language. The speaker can know what he is saying, or he can speak in a language unknown to him or anyone else. The two scenario's are not mutually exclusive, and can co-exist with each other. They are also both clearly portrayed in scripture.

livingword26

Sep 10th 2008, 10:29 AM

The three 'sign' gifts of 1Co 13:8: Prophecies, tongues, and knowledge will fail, cease, and vanish away.

v11: "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things..."
No one is able to dogmatically dictate when precisely these things are to fade.

These gifts will fade when we see the Lord face to face. Then there will be no need.

1Co 13:8-12
(8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
(9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
(10) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(11) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
(12) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Lady Ashanti

Sep 10th 2008, 11:14 AM

[/quote
There is no such verse in the Bible that teaches that after becoming "born again," one should receive the Holy Ghost "not many (days?) hence
[/quote]

Uh...Jesus said this to His disciples after His resurrection...

Acts 1:1-5...

1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

I will stop there, and not deal with the remainder of your post because you started out notknowing what you were talking about, and calling me a liar by your assumption...

Have a good day!!!

Oregongrown

Sep 10th 2008, 03:08 PM

People, are you reading the whole bible??? When Jesus said they would receive the Holy Ghost "hence" is meaning after He ascended! The bible says the "helper" would come when Jesus ascended. Jesus is at the right hand of God now folks, so when we are born-again we get the Holy Ghost at that moment, no waiting.

a sister in Christ, denise

[/quote
There is no such verse in the Bible that teaches that after becoming "born again," one should receive the Holy Ghost "not many (days?) hence

Uh...Jesus said this to His disciples after His resurrection...

Acts 1:1-5...

1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

I will stop there, and not deal with the remainder of your post because you started out notknowing what you were talking about, and calling me a liar by your assumption...

Have a good day!!![/quote]

Oregongrown

Sep 10th 2008, 03:10 PM

[/quote
There is no such verse in the Bible that teaches that after becoming "born again," one should receive the Holy Ghost "not many (days?) hence

Uh...Jesus said this to His disciples after His resurrection...

Acts 1:1-5...

1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

I will stop there, and not deal with the remainder of your post because you started out notknowing what you were talking about, and calling me a liar by your assumption...

Have a good day!!![/quote]

People, are you reading the whole bible??? When Jesus said they would receive the Holy Ghost "hence" is meaning after He ascended! The bible says the "helper" would come when Jesus ascended. Jesus is at the right hand of God now folks, so when we are born-again we get the Holy Ghost at that moment, no waiting.

a sister in Christ, denise

Buck shot

Sep 10th 2008, 03:18 PM

MOD HAT ON

Okay guys, many of you are doing a nice job staying nice but some of you are struggling with it.

We need to all remember that we are saved by faith and not by works.

MOD HAT OFF

The gift of tongues was given as proof (evidence) of the Holy Spirit coming upon those at Pentacost and some (not all) afterwards. Evidence of; this means it's proof of it, not the act of it.

Weither or not it is scriptually done today i cannot honestly answer. I have been a pastor for a long time and have witnessed and personally received many other proofs that folks have been "filled" with the Holy Ghost. One proof for me is that this old country boy gets to deliver the Word of God from the pulpit that could only come from Him. No notes, just His Word and His messages.

4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

You are using scripture predating Pentacost. Noone was indwelt with the Holy Spirit prior to that date. Jesus was telling them that in just a few day you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit.

This happened like He said. From that day forth folks are indwelt with the Holy Spirit from the day that the repent and turn their lives over to Jesus just as the Ethiopian in Acts 8 and Saul in Acts 9. Here in verse 17 Saul is recorded to be filled with the Holy Ghost but it does not record him speaking in tongues.
Why, because the evidence this time was the sales falling from his eyes. The then went to preaching, without the gift of tongues at that time.

Oregongrown

Sep 10th 2008, 03:23 PM

I can not say if you do or not, That why i didn't answer that question correctly... I am not condemning you or anybody.. I do not judge you, or anybody, I do not think I am better than anybody, for all I am is a sinner saved by grace.... But when it comes to Salvation. Evidence of the Holy Ghost is speaking in tongues.. I am not going to compromise it because I know it is evidence of the Holy Ghost inside of you. Everywhere i gave scripture to back what i said up about speaking in tongues... Acts 2:3-4 , Acts 10:45-48, Acts 19 1-6, You see every one of those places Peter was there they all spake in tongues... As i posted earlier Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven...

Listen darlin, Im not the enemy here so I pray that you don't hear my words as being anything but loving. Im way not perfect but it is my heart's desire to follow Christs example always;). We both believe in Christ, we just have a difference of opinion on the scriptures. By the way, remember the enemy wants to destroy christianity and he wants discension and he definitely does not want us to unite. The more he can separate us the happier he is. Lets not please him:hug:

Your writings say that you believe that a person does not have the Holy Spirit if they do not speak in tongues. That is your belief of the evidence of the HS. This is correct right?? Tell me if I am misunderstanding k. So then, you truly believe people that do not speak in tongues do not have the Holy Spirit, nor were they baptised in Him. If this is what you believe, stand up for it. But if it is not, then listen to some of what people are posting here. For myself, if I hear something that is not quite right I believe it is the Holy Spirit directing me. So then, I go to the bible, but I must read all the bible travis. Around the texts, to get the Truth. I also pray and ask God to direct me through His Holy Spirit on what He wants to teach/show me:)

God bless, a sister in Christ, denise

Oregongrown

Sep 10th 2008, 03:28 PM

Travis.In acts about the Holy Spirit.....Did you not read in the very same chapter that "they spoke in the tongue(the same) so that those who were there from many countries 'understood what was said in their own tongue' and were amazed!
Speaking in tongues is a 'gift from God' as discernment and prophesy etc.and speaking in tongues is the least of them.
Also,I don't speak with tongues...I did not receive that gift.
But, I am filled with the Holy Spirit who speaks with my spirit.If you wish I'll get scriptural verses for you.In Christ,Darlene

This is exactly how I believe I've been taught by the Holy Spirit:) I know from my own experience that the Holy Spirit filled me when I cried out and gave my life to Jesus:) God bless your day and hope to touch base with you more later:) your sister in Christ, denise:hug:

Buck shot

Sep 10th 2008, 03:34 PM

Listen darlin, Im not the enemy here so I pray that you don't hear my words as being anything but loving. Im way not perfect but it is my heart's desire to follow Christs example always;). We both believe in Christ, we just have a difference of opinion on the scriptures. By the way, remember the enemy wants to destroy christianity and he wants discension and he definitely does not want us to unite. The more he can separate us the happier he is. Lets not please him:hug:

Your writings say that you believe that a person does not have the Holy Spirit if they do not speak in tongues. That is your belief of the evidence of the HS. This is correct right?? Tell me if I am misunderstanding k. So then, you truly believe people that do not speak in tongues do not have the Holy Spirit, nor were they baptised in Him. If this is what you believe, stand up for it. But if it is not, then listen to some of what people are posting here. For myself, if I hear something that is not quite right I believe it is the Holy Spirit directing me. So then, I go to the bible, but I must read all the bible travis. Around the texts, to get the Truth. I also pray and ask God to direct me through His Holy Spirit on what He wants to teach/show me:)

God bless, a sister in Christ, denise

I love the first part of your post Denise.

The second part we need to ponder on. The thing is, this forum takes the stand that we are saved by faith and not by works. It is even in our rules. So when a member feels they need to teach otherwise we have to step in. That being said, all who feel you must speak in tongues, must be baptized, or must do anything other that trust in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to be saved is going against what we teach here at Bible Forum. We will not allow it.

Those who believe they need to add to the gospel are welcome here and we hope they will be a part of our family, just don't teach anything along those lines here.

VerticalReality

Sep 10th 2008, 03:37 PM

The Scriptures do not declare that all who were filled with the Holy Spirit spoke in other tongues. Acts 8 comes to mind right off the bat. The power of the Holy Spirit includes, but is not limited to, the speaking of other tongues.

Oregongrown

Sep 10th 2008, 03:41 PM

Whenever there is any question, go to the Source of all wisdom, that's what I've been taught. It's clear that there are basically two sides here and neither is going to give any ground. Last night I started 1 Corinthians but not without praying to the Lord to fill me with His Holy Spirit and open the Word to me for all understanding of this topic we have been discussing. I can't tell you how wonderfully He did that once again. He always comes through. I will only say this. I would ask that each believer pray for the same thing as I did, or however you want to do it, and be open to His leading. Ask Him to show you all Truth on this topic, He will if you honestly seek His Word, not anything else. Just you and the Lord.

God bless your day and may His face shine upon you, a sister in Christ, denise:)

PS I sought His Word with humility given to me by Him also. I was open to whatever He said. We need to come before Him with all humility, more of Him, less of us, dying to self :hug:

TravisJ

Sep 10th 2008, 03:46 PM

I said speaking in tongues is evidence of the Holy Ghost, why did God infill me with the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues. You can not comprehend that. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:17

For I live in the spirit not in flesh, That is why John 3:6 That which is born in flesh is flesh; and that which is born in spirit is spirit, we cannot live in flesh,

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

How we know this with evidence of speaking in tongues, its not jibber jabber, if anyone has the power of Holy Ghost, and spoken in tongues you could comprehend this.

There is people still today 1900 some odd years later, receiving the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues... It is the truth, and I am not going to compromise it. You will all find for yourselves... Just wait. :)

I see so many people with it and with the Holy Ghost that have spoken in tongues, tongues is just evidence. There is one that was doing sign language, of course she did not know what it was.. but there was a women there that knew sign language, and she was astonished , and the women was saying I love you Jesus, and some other ....

dispen4ever

Sep 10th 2008, 04:24 PM

i am filled with the holy spirit who speaks with my spirit. If you wish i'll get scriptural verses for you. In christ, darlene

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

Oregongrown

Sep 10th 2008, 05:05 PM

I love the first part of your post Denise.

The second part we need to ponder on. The thing is, this forum takes the stand that we are saved by faith and not by works. It is even in our rules. So when a member feels they need to teach otherwise we have to step in. That being said, all who feel you must speak in tongues, must be baptized, or must do anything other that trust in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to be saved is going against what we teach here at Bible Forum. We will not allow it.

Those who believe they need to add to the gospel are welcome here and we hope they will be a part of our family, just don't teach anything along those lines here.

Ok, but if the bible says "must" it is ok here right? As in "you must be born-again"? And the bible says don't add to or take away from in revelations? Maybe I am misunderstanding that text? I know some say that is just for revelation. But if I am understanding you, you are telling me not to say "must" unless it's in a verse? Just want to be clear:) God bless, ysic, denise

dispen4ever

Sep 10th 2008, 07:17 PM

Buck shot

Sep 10th 2008, 08:11 PM

Ok, but if the bible says "must" it is ok here right? As in "you must be born-again"? And the bible says don't add to or take away from in revelations? Maybe I am misunderstanding that text? I know some say that is just for revelation. But if I am understanding you, you are telling me not to say "must" unless it's in a verse? Just want to be clear:) God bless, ysic, denise

:) Yes, we MUST be born again (born of Spirit) to be saved. This is not something that we do though. This is something that God does in us. We cannot make ourselves a new creature any more than we could make ourselves the first time (born of water). We must repent of our sinful lifestyles and put our faith in Jesus. At this time we are born again. When you go to adding things after that is when you go too far ;)

What i was trying to get across is that we should not push someone into a corner to get them to tell us what they do not want to say. This provokes folks to lash out and try to defend something that they may be struggling with.

We can all disagree on topics without being disagreeable. This will cause us to each look at why we believe what we do instead of trying to defend something we have been taught.

A year ago, i believed that the gift of tongues had ceased because i was taught the same few verses that have been mentioned in this thread several times. Today, i am not so sure because of the loving posts of many of the folks on this forum. The gift of tongues to many of them was not something to brag that they had recieved but was an humbling experience to them. This is the reaction i have when i know that God is gifting me with something, so this is what i would expect from another Christian. Not the lashing out or holier that thou attitudes. These are the ones that i can turn off real quick.

I have been a Christian most of my life, i have sought for God to show me many times if tongues were still used by Him today. He has not shown me in any way other than thru some here. How can someone who does not serve God daily and just acts like a christian on Sunday mornings get this amazing gift of tongues every Sunday morning? I think many of us are turned off to this gift being used because there are so many misusing it.:hmm:

Lady Ashanti

Sep 10th 2008, 08:37 PM

Each scriptural reference, Lady A., spiritually interpreted and taught, will present the opposite of what you teach. Each presents an accurate recording in God's Word that gets sadly misunderstood and reported to others. As a result we have thousands of denominations, JWs, Mormons, Christian Science, Rev. Moon, SDA, RC, GOC, and soooooooo many others. Are there Christians among them? Yes. My prayer is that they will "see the light", that Light being none other than Jesus.

:-)

To be a Christian, one has to be in Christ, or born of Christ...these other religions do not believe Christ, nor have they accepted them as Savior so therefore they are not Christians.

Now, I do believe that some are sincere in their search for a relationship with the Lord, and will be delivered from every false cult before this is all over, however anyone that adheres to doctrines that do not have Christ as Lord and Savior, accepting Him as the Son of God, dying for their sins, rising again, and is seated at the right Hand of the Father...is not a Christian.

Grace, and Peace...

Lady Ashanti

Sep 10th 2008, 08:48 PM

wondercoolguy

Sep 10th 2008, 10:13 PM

livingword26

Sep 10th 2008, 10:39 PM

Alright Tongue speakers I want you to go out there and drink bleach and nothing should happen to you:rofl:

Mat 4:7
(7) Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

livingword26

Sep 10th 2008, 10:59 PM

I believe I heard from the Lord today.

First, I was reminded of a time when a friend I knew was sick. Me and two other people went to her house to pray for her. As we were praying, the other two guys started praying in the Spirit (tongues). Later, after we were done, her husband, who had been in the room, kneeling and praying with us, said that he had heard the two men, who were praying in the Spirit, as if they were praying in english. He had the gift of interpretation.

Next, this verse in acts came to my mind:

Act 2:1-8
(1) And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
(2) And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
(3) And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
(4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
(5) And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
(6) Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
(7) And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
(8) And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

Now one thing that this verse says is that the Apostles were speaking in other tongues, what it does not say is that they were speaking in any particular language, but that the people heard them speaking in their own languages. The gifts of the Spirit are not the gifts of the flesh. The Spirit can speak to a man without words at all, and cause him to understand. I have experienced this myself, and that is what was happening here, what the Apostles spoke came from the Holy Spirit, and no man new what they said. But God granted those who heard, understanding, or interpretation. To those who would seek the gifts of the Holy Spirit, do not believe the voice of the enemy when he tells you that these gifts are no more. God is not dead, nor is His Spirit.

I have heard it said on this thread the tongues are of the devil. To anyone who believes this, I leave you with Jesus words, I pray you will understand them.

Mat 12:24-32
(24) But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
(25) And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
(26) And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
(27) And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
(28) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
(29) Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man and then he will spoil his house.
(30) He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
(31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
(32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Lady Ashanti

Sep 10th 2008, 11:46 PM

Alright Tongue speakers I want you to go out there and drink bleach and nothing should happen to you:rofl:

The scripture states IF we drink any deadly thing...as in IF we happen to drink something that would ordinarily cause harm, we will not be harmed by it, not that we should deliberately drink harmful products.:o

Hmm...:hmm:...didn't the devil say something like that to Jesus, and He responded that "we are not to "put God to the test"???

Matthew 4:5-7 (New International Reader's Version)

5 Then the devil took Jesus to the holy city. He had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. It is written,
" 'The Lord will command his angels to take good care of you.
They will lift you up in their hands.
Then you won't trip over a stone.' " —(Psalm 91:11,12) 7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written, 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "—(Deuteronomy 6:16)

amazzin

Sep 10th 2008, 11:50 PM

Alright Tongue speakers I want you to go out there and drink bleach and nothing should happen to you:rofl:

Are you mocking tongue speaking believers?

Oregongrown

Sep 10th 2008, 11:51 PM

Now I understand. I was "pushing" them to tell me something they don't want to. Yes, I was as I look at it now. And in all honesty, I did want them to be clear not just for me but for themselves. But thats not my job or how Jesus would handle it so I don't want to either;) Thank you for the headsup, God bless, your sister in Christ, denise

:) Yes, we MUST be born again (born of Spirit) to be saved. This is not something that we do though. This is something that God does in us. We cannot make ourselves a new creature any more than we could make ourselves the first time (born of water). We must repent of our sinful lifestyles and put our faith in Jesus. At this time we are born again. When you go to adding things after that is when you go too far ;)

What i was trying to get across is that we should not push someone into a corner to get them to tell us what they do not want to say. This provokes folks to lash out and try to defend something that they may be struggling with.

We can all disagree on topics without being disagreeable. This will cause us to each look at why we believe what we do instead of trying to defend something we have been taught.

A year ago, i believed that the gift of tongues had ceased because i was taught the same few verses that have been mentioned in this thread several times. Today, i am not so sure because of the loving posts of many of the folks on this forum. The gift of tongues to many of them was not something to brag that they had recieved but was an humbling experience to them. This is the reaction i have when i know that God is gifting me with something, so this is what i would expect from another Christian. Not the lashing out or holier that thou attitudes. These are the ones that i can turn off real quick.

I have been a Christian most of my life, i have sought for God to show me many times if tongues were still used by Him today. He has not shown me in any way other than thru some here. How can someone who does not serve God daily and just acts like a christian on Sunday mornings get this amazing gift of tongues every Sunday morning? I think many of us are turned off to this gift being used because there are so many misusing it.:hmm:

wondercoolguy

Sep 11th 2008, 02:07 AM

Mat 4:7
(7) Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

You are not the Lord Thy God, you need to read more, and stop twisting the word to your own benefit. That verse says new tongues and you can drink bad things and nothing bad happen. You can't believe one thing and not the other.

P.S. in that verse new tongues means languages

livingword26

Sep 11th 2008, 02:17 AM

You are not the Lord Thy God,

No doubt about it.

you need to read more, and stop twisting the word to your own benefit. That verse says new tongues and you can drink bad things and nothing bad happen. You can't believe one thing and not the other.

P.S. in that verse new tongues means languages

All I did was post this verse:

Mat 4:7
(7) Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

In response to you telling people that they should drink bleach and they should be ok. That verse was very appropriate. Its what Jesus told Satan when Satan told Him to jump off of the pinnacle of the temple. Perhaps you should read the verse.

VerticalReality

Sep 11th 2008, 02:25 AM

You are not the Lord Thy God, you need to read more, and stop twisting the word to your own benefit. That verse says new tongues and you can drink bad things and nothing bad happen. You can't believe one thing and not the other.

P.S. in that verse new tongues means languages

I personally believe 100% that if someone were to try and poison me through something deadly I would not be harmed by it. I most certainly believe that the Lord will keep me in health on such an occasion.

Oregongrown

Sep 11th 2008, 02:57 AM

I personally believe 100% that if someone were to try and poison me through something deadly I would not be harmed by it. I most certainly believe that the Lord will keep me in health on such an occasion.

Matt 10:27-31
27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&translation=nkjvp#) "Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. 28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&translation=nkjvp#) And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&translation=nkjvp#) Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will. 30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&translation=nkjvp#) But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&translation=nkjvp#) Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

I don't have many thoughts about dying(I mean my physical body)but I do believe that my life is truly in Gods hands. I fear less about the "world" including the physical dying of my body, every day and gain more faith that God will not only get me through that, but that the "fear" of the Lord is the only fear I need have. I don't discount miracles, Paul was bitten by a snake, I think it said poisonous or viper?? Anyway, he shook it off and went about his work. I just believe that knowing what I have learned about Paul, he didn't panic he just knew his life was in God's hands. I get a tiny taste of that sort of faith in my life once in awhile. I have felt I might die a couple times, one was over my heart not beating enough times per min. and I could hardly breath or walk. The peace I had about it was indescribable. God has just changed me in so many ways, for the good. I still get afraid at times but mostly I think of "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord".

The bible does indeed tell me I can do amazing things. I believe that in all circumstances we can hold onto Jesus and know that it is in His hands and fear not. I have faith He will give me what I need and when I need it, always.

God bless, your sister in Christ, denise

Lady Ashanti

Sep 11th 2008, 03:12 AM

You are not the Lord Thy God, you need to read more, and stop twisting the word to your own benefit. That verse says new tongues and you can drink bad things and nothing bad happen. You can't believe one thing and not the other.

P.S. in that verse new tongues means languages

...and what did they speak on the day of Pentecost upon receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost? And how do you know that when you hear people speaking in tongues what you are hearing is not a language spoken somewhere in our world?

Oregongrown

Sep 11th 2008, 03:20 AM

Mark 16:17-20 (New King James Version)

17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

Do with it what you will...:hmm:

and this is exactly what took place. With Peter, the rest of the disciples Paul etc. I am studying the Word more everyday, counting always on the Holy Spirit to rightly divide the Truth for me. I am not convinced at this point in my walk, that those things are being done today by any of God's chosen. I do believe that there are many counterfeits though that we as christians should be aware, as the bible says, of false-teaching, doctrines, prophets.

God bless, a sister in Christ, denise

wondercoolguy

Sep 11th 2008, 02:18 PM

...and what did they speak on the day of Pentecost upon receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost? And how do you know that when you hear people speaking in tongues what you are hearing is not a language spoken somewhere in our world?

Acts
{2:6} Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were
confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

The purpose of Tongues in Acts was one man preaching to many. It wasn't jibberish that no one could understand. He spoke in his native tongue but everyman heard it in their own language. :eek:

Buck shot

Sep 11th 2008, 02:27 PM

Alright Tongue speakers I want you to go out there and drink bleach and nothing should happen to you:rofl:

Hey brother, i know you are joking but this is a serious topic for many here. The first thought that came to mind was, just which fruit of the spirit is that?

Lets all keep these discussions with the love that Jesus would share. We are all here to mature right? Well, lets take the next step in our walk and try to understand why the folks on the other side of the fence believe the way they do. This will help us to be able to witness and study why we believe what we do.

TravisJ

Sep 11th 2008, 02:52 PM

Oregongrown

Sep 11th 2008, 03:11 PM

I would all like to invite you guys to church one day... :) i can only talk about what i have seen.. maybe i can get enough money to give you guys some first class tickets to the South..lol but I have seen people being healed by the power of the Holy Ghost, i have seen people who had cancer that only had 5 weeks to live (from what the doctors said) and being healed and having no cancer at all... Our God is an amazing God... He is the one true living God..

I have seen people walk through the church doors never been in this thing, don't know what its about but they get touched by the Master, something just about that just changes them, they go that alter, and they receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, with evidence of speaking in tongues. It don't stop there, they bring there whole family in this thing...

I wanted to apologize to you brother. The longer I walk with the Lord the more I see how little I know. I was trying to push my opinions on you and I hope you will forgive me for that. I admit to having been hurt by some folks in the pent/charis and it's apparent I am not over that. I know there are two sides to a story also and maybe they feel the same way about me.

Anyway, God bless your day darlin! I don't know where in the South you live but I lived in The Shoals area, Florence to be exact. I also lived in NC and NE for a time:)

With love, your sister in Christ, denise :hug:
PS I miss the Magnolia, among other things of the South, I was blessed to view every day out my livingroom window:)
http://bibleforums.org/forum/picture.php?albumid=233&pictureid=2039

TravisJ

Sep 11th 2008, 03:23 PM

I wanted to apologize to you brother. The longer I walk with the Lord the more I see how little I know. I was trying to push my opinions on you and I hope you will forgive me for that. I admit to having been hurt by some folks in the pent/charis and it's apparent I am not over that. I know there are two sides to a story also and maybe they feel the same way about me.

Anyway, God bless your day darlin! I don't know where in the South you live but I lived in The Shoals area, Florence to be exact. I also lived in NC and NE for a time:)

With love, your sister in Christ, denise :hug:
PS I miss the Magnolia, among other things of the South, I was blessed to view every day out my livingroom window:)
http://bibleforums.org/forum/picture.php?albumid=233&pictureid=2039

No problem, don't worry I wasn't trying to come off the wrong foot either so I do apologize also.. :P but i live in the Mid-South.. Paragould, Arkansas... A little town bout 22,000 Northeast Arkansas.. close to Memphis about an hour and 15 minute drive... and I can't really say i am blessed seeing out the living room window, all i see is a dirt road that needs to be paved... :)

Lady Ashanti

Sep 11th 2008, 03:24 PM

I would all like to invite you guys to church one day... :) i can only talk about what i have seen.. maybe i can get enough money to give you guys some first class tickets to the South..lol but I have seen people being healed by the power of the Holy Ghost, i have seen people who had cancer that only had 5 weeks to live (from what the doctors said) and being healed and having no cancer at all... Our God is an amazing God... He is the one true living God..

I have seen people walk through the church doors never been in this thing, don't know what its about but they get touched by the Master, something just about that just changes them, they go that alter, and they receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, with evidence of speaking in tongues. It don't stop there, they bring there whole family in this thing...

That's what I am talking about...a person with an experience is never at the mercy of one with just an argument...

They moved my thread to the "testimony" section but I was saying the same thing. If one was to just ask the Lord "whatever is of YOU I want", and wait on Him, they would be amazed at what the Lord reveals...

Be blessed...

TravisJ

Sep 11th 2008, 03:37 PM

I known people, who go to my church and they asked God to reveal to them what church should they go too.. and they revealed this one I go too... Even I, when I wasn't serving God.. He brought me to the Church I go to, I made a promise to him some odd years back... and I ran out of moves to make.. Just like a king in chess.... only other option is to surrender myself to God... I am so glad i did...

Buck shot

Sep 11th 2008, 03:37 PM

That's what I am talking about...a person with an experience is never at the mercy of one with just an argument...

They moved my thread to the "testimony" section but I was saying the same thing. If one was to just ask the Lord "whatever is of YOU I want", and wait on Him, they would be amazed at what the Lord reveals...

Be blessed...

Many of us have been praying this prayer for years but have seen evidence to lead us to believe the opposite. Just because what i have seen was definately fake does not mean that somewhere God is not still using these gifts. I feel i cannot put God in a box.

That's okay, as long as we all realize this gift has no bearing on weither or not someone is saved and does not make them anymore of a child of the King than the rest. ;)

cdo

Sep 11th 2008, 03:38 PM

:)
Travis,I for one agree about 'speaking in tongues'.I at one time by God's will was a visitor for several months at a Church of God.I was already friends with quite a few and also the preacher and his wife.Several spoke in tongues and it was always interpreted for the edification of the Church.If that were not the case,I for one would not have known what had been said. The Bible says 'it is a gift from God' and so is an interruption.....without that gift it would be impossible for edifying the Church. However,Like I said in another post....I don't have the gift of tongues but, I am filled with God's Holy Spirit that witnesses to my spirit as He said we would be endowed with the comforter that the Father would send, When I was saved God gave me exactly what He new I needed.
God Bless,Darlene

Lady Ashanti

Sep 11th 2008, 03:44 PM

That's okay, as long as we all realize this gift has no bearing on weither or not someone is saved and does not make them anymore of a child of the King than the rest. ;)

Amen!!! Scripture does not state that one must have the baptism in the Holy Ghost to be saved, however it does state that this is necessary in order to have power....

Acts 1:8...
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Buck shot

Sep 11th 2008, 03:54 PM

Jec1

Sep 11th 2008, 03:55 PM

That's what I am talking about...a person with an experience is never at the mercy of one with just an argument...

They moved my thread to the "testimony" section but I was saying the same thing. If one was to just ask the Lord "whatever is of YOU I want", and wait on Him, they would be amazed at what the Lord reveals...

Be blessed...

You can experience many things but that does not make them right. I understand that in life we are lead by our experiences most of the time, but this is not enough when it comes to interpreting the word of God. We can easily be lead astray by experience and feelings. The word must come 1st in our understanding. If it says something contrary to our experience or how we feel we must believe it.

And "wondercoolguy" when someone gives you scripture respond to the scripture. You have made some comments that seem arrogant, mean and unrelated to the topic of tongues. If that is not your intention you should make it known.

Buck shot

Sep 11th 2008, 04:01 PM

Amen!!! Scripture does not state that one must have the baptism in the Holy Ghost to be saved, however it does state that this is necessary in order to have power....

Acts 1:8...
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Not exactly, when the Holy Spirit comes upon us we can have power without this gift. Many received differant gifts. The Lord blessed this country boy with POWER to deliver His Word with boldness, long before i earned my doctorate degree. The boldness that I was able to preach with came from God, not me. This is a miraculios POWER that God still uses weekly. Not from information i have gathered from schools and man but from what He has indwelt me with! :pp

Oregongrown

Sep 11th 2008, 04:06 PM

You can experience many things but that does not make them right. I understand that in life we are lead by our experiences most of the time, but this is not enough when it comes to interpreting the word of God. We can easily be lead astray by experience and feelings. The word must come 1st in our understanding. If it says something contrary to our experience or how we feel we must believe it.

And "wondercoolguy" when someone gives you scripture respond to the scripture. You have made some comments that seem arrogant, mean and unrelated to the topic of tongues. If that is not your intention you should make it known.

I hadn't been thinking about the experience and feeling thing but thank you for the reminder. Your statement on it, imo, is right on. One thing that comes to mind when knowing better than to just go on my "feelings" or past experience, is that Jesus taught me about submitting to Gods Will rather than my "feelings". When He was praying in the Garden of Gethsame(never spell that right:) He said "Your will Father". He didn't "feel" like being tortured and hung on a cross to die, but He only wanted to do His Fathers will. Amen on your comment:) ysic, denise :hug:

BattleStance

Sep 11th 2008, 08:08 PM

Daily Tongues are incorrect

In Acts when Peter is preaching the bible clearly says that he spake and every man heard in his own language. Not gibberish became sentences.

Also the bible says if some one is actually speaking in spiritual tongues there will be one who speaks and one who interupts. It goes on to says that if a lost person walks in and sees everyone in the church speaking in tongues they will call us fools and leave.

People who pray in tongues because the "devil will steal their prayer" where is that in the bible? Is God so weak that he can't hear what your going to say? Is our God so weak and dumb he doesn't already know what your going to pray before you do it? The answer is No! My God is an awesome God who hears all my foolish prayers who is the Alpha and Omega He knows ALL.

AMEN! :cool:

You also understand that when the apostles where in that house people came from all over, the bible says people from all over heard them Acts 2: 1-18. They heard them and wondered what is this, arent these galiaens speaking in our tounge. Meaning that the apostles where speaking in the language of people from all over. God also said in the last days he would pour out his spirit on all flesh.

Oregongrown

Sep 11th 2008, 08:44 PM

Not exactly, when the Holy Spirit comes upon us we can have power without this gift. Many received differant gifts. The Lord blessed this country boy with POWER to deliver His Word with boldness, long before i earned my doctorate degree. The boldness that I was able to preach with came from God, not me. This is a miraculios POWER that God still uses weekly. Not from information i have gathered from schools and man but from what He has indwelt me with! :pp

but I know the power of which you speak;) Without it I would, well, be powerless, like there is no genuine, worthwhile power in me except that of the Holy Spirit:) Anyone knowing the "before and after" Christ "denise" will vouch for that:)

ysic, denise:pp

Oregongrown

Sep 11th 2008, 08:50 PM

You also understand that when the apostles where in that house people came from all over, the bible says people from all over heard them Acts 2: 1-18. They heard them and wondered what is this, arent these galiaens speaking in our tounge. Meaning that the apostles where speaking in the language of people from all over. God also said in the last days he would pour out his spirit on all flesh.

with all you said. I would also love more of a topic on that last sentence because I would love to learn more about what God is saying to us in that. I have my "own" ideas but many times those certainly don't match up with others beliefs/opinions/thoughts let alone the Holy Spirits:) The one thought I'll toss out is I wonder if this might have to do with final conviction sort of thing? And final opportunity to turn to Christ?:hmm:

God bless, ysic, denise

cdo

Sep 11th 2008, 10:31 PM

with all you said. I would also love more of a topic on that last sentence because I would love to learn more about what God is saying to us in that. I have my "own" ideas but many times those certainly don't match up with others beliefs/opinions/thoughts let alone the Holy Spirits:) The one thought I'll toss out is I wonder if this might have to do with final conviction sort of thing? And final opportunity to turn to Christ?:hmm:

God bless, ysic, denise

"The Holy Spirit will be poured out in the last days"(paraphrase)
The way I understand this is when~Jesus talks about in Matthew 24 When we will be called up to "the false high priest" and be questioned and His word says not to premeditate on what we shall speak but,that we will be given the words at that time to say about Jesus' testimony'.(paraphrase) and also I believe that if broke is the unforgiven sin.
I may be wrong but,God is right.......in Christ,Darlene

Oregongrown

Sep 12th 2008, 12:35 AM

MyGod

Sep 12th 2008, 01:16 AM

Alright Tongue speakers I want you to go out there and drink bleach and nothing should happen to you:rofl:

I'm almost ashamed to say it but this cracked me up. It baffles me how people believe some parts of that verse but skip over the rest. I asked a friend of mine who believes he has the gift of tongues, "why don't you handle snakes or drink deadly poison?" He didn't have an answer.

MyGod

Sep 12th 2008, 01:17 AM

MyGod

Sep 12th 2008, 01:20 AM

I personally believe 100% that if someone were to try and poison me through something deadly I would not be harmed by it. I most certainly believe that the Lord will keep me in health on such an occasion.

Do you believe if you pick up a serpent it won't bite you? I'm not being facetious, I just don't understand how people can take one part of Mark and skip other parts.

livingword26

Sep 12th 2008, 01:23 AM

I'm almost ashamed to say it but this cracked me up.

Another mocker huh

Jud 1:18-21
(18) How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
(19) These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
(20) But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
(21) Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

It baffles me how people believe some parts of that verse but skip over the rest. I asked a friend of mine who believes he has the gift of tongues, "why don't you handle snakes or drink deadly poison?" He didn't have an answer.Because you are not supposed to drink poison or handle snakes. That is tempting God, and Jesus says you are not supposed to do that. If a man was bitten by a snake like Paul, or poisoned without knowing it, then you could expect for that verse to be applied.

Mat 4:3-7
(3) And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
(4) But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
(5) Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
(6) And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
(7) Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

livingword26

Sep 12th 2008, 01:25 AM

Do you believe if you pick up a serpent it won't bite you? I'm not being facetious, I just don't understand how people can take one part of Mark and skip other parts.

Apparently you don't believe any of it? What is the bible to you?

cdo

Sep 12th 2008, 01:26 AM

"The Holy Spirit will be poured out in the last days"(paraphrase)
The way I understand this is when~Jesus talks about in Matthew 24 When we will be called up to "the false high priest" and be questioned and His word says not to premeditate on what we shall speak but,that we will be given the words at that time to say about Jesus' testimony'.(paraphrase) and also I believe that if broke is the unforgiven sin.
I may be wrong but,God is right.......in Christ,Darlene
Yes, Sorry as in if you take it upon yourself to speak your own "premeditate"word"instead of the Holy Spirit speaking. My understanding is this is the time that the out-pouring of the Holy Spirit takes over what we shall speak.

Im not sure what you meant on "if broke is the unforgiven sin". You know me and my brain just doesn't always function like normal anymore:( Did you mean blaspheme? I think one word and type another. Im wondering if that was what happened here. :hug: Love you, denise:)
This was something I added but is the Word of God.The unforgivable sin,I believe to understand that it means if you choose to speak your own fleshly words....this would be blaspheme to the Holy Spirit.But please check this out yourself. in Christ,Darlene

MyGod

Sep 12th 2008, 01:28 AM

Another mocker huh

Jud 1:18-21
(18) How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
(19) These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
(20) But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
(21) Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Because you are not supposed to drink poison or handle snakes. That is tempting God, and Jesus says you are not supposed to do that. If a man was bitten by a snake like Paul, or poisoned without knowing it, then you could expect for that verse to be applied.

Mat 4:3-7
(3) And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
(4) But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
(5) Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
(6) And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
(7) Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

living ~ my intent was not to mock. I apologize if I came across that way. I just have a sense of humor and thought it was funny. I do apologize though if I offended you.

People use Mark 16 to prove that they have the gift of healing and tongues. But, I rarely (only in Kentucky or somewhere down south) hear of anyone talking about serpents or drinking anything deadly. By the way, there are some down south who have handled snakes and died. That scripture wasn't written to or about us. It was written to the Nation of Israel.

MyGod

Sep 12th 2008, 01:33 AM

Apparently you don't believe any of it? What is the bible to you?

Oh no, I believe the ENTIRE bible is the inspired word of God. But, I understand right division. God tells us to study the scriptures and rightly divide them. All of the bible is for us but it's not all written to or about us. For instance, saints in Moses' day were required to follow the ten commandments for salvation. We are no longer required to keep the commandments to obtain salvation. We should, but our salvation solely rests on what Christ did on the cross. I just don't take every part of the bible as my personal mail . . . it's not all addressed to me. But, I believe all of it. The apostle Paul writes my instructions. . . Romans thru Philemon. He is the apostle to the Gentiles. Genesis thru Acts is specifically written to the Nation of Isreal, Romans thru Philemon is specifically written to the Body of Christ. That, is what I believe.

livingword26

Sep 12th 2008, 01:34 AM

People use Mark 16 to prove that they have the gift of healing and tongues. But, I rarely (only in Kentucky or somewhere down south) hear of anyone talking about serpents or drinking anything deadly. By the way, there are some down south who have handled snakes and died. That scripture wasn't written to or about us. It was written to the Nation of Israel.

Perhaps the reason they died was because what they were doing was for the wrong reason. Pauls encounter with the snake is a perfect example of what that verse was talking about.

Act 28:3-6
(3) And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
(4) And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
(5) And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
(6) Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.

And that verse was written to all who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ:

Mar 16:15-18
(15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

cdo

Sep 12th 2008, 01:37 AM

livingword26

Sep 12th 2008, 01:38 AM

Oh no, I believe the ENTIRE bible is the inspired word of God. But, I understand right division. God tells us to study the scriptures and rightly divide them. All of the bible is for us but it's not all written to or about us. For instance, saints in Moses' day were required to follow the ten commandments for salvation. We are no longer required to keep the commandments to obtain salvation. We should, but our salvation solely rests on what Christ did on the cross. I just don't take every part of the bible as my personal mail . . . it's not all addressed to me. But, I believe all of it. The apostle Paul writes my instructions. . . Romans thru Philemon. He is the apostle to the Gentiles. Genesis thru Acts is specifically written to the Nation of Isreal, Romans thru Philemon is specifically written to the Body of Christ. That, is what I believe.

Disregarding parts of the bible is the main trademark of the false doctrine. If you want to throw them out, that is between you and God. But I'll not fall into that folly

Gal 3:27-28
(27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

MyGod

Sep 12th 2008, 01:39 AM

What we need to do as Christians (including myself) is share scripture and belief systems and let it be. Let the Holy Spirit work. Paul said it himself "I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase." I don't know, I'm not one to go back and forth w/anyone. I used to but I don't now. As long as we all accept Christ as our personal savior, the rest will come later. What matters most is salvation. Understanding can come at any point. If I don't have a clear understanding, pray that I will. And likewise. Just my two cents. :)

MyGod

Sep 12th 2008, 01:41 AM

Perhaps the reason they died was because what they were doing was for the wrong reason. Pauls encounter with the snake is a perfect example of what that verse was talking about.

Act 28:3-6
(3) And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
(4) And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
(5) And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
(6) Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.

And that verse was written to all who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ:

Mar 16:15-18
(15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I personally believe they died because they were bitten by a snake. They did something God didn't tell them to do. But, if you believe differently, I'm happy for you. If I'm wrong, pray for my understanding of the scripture.

MyGod

Sep 12th 2008, 01:42 AM

Disregarding parts of the bible is the main trademark of the false doctrine. If you want to throw them out, that is between you and God. But I'll not fall into that folly

Gal 3:27-28
(27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I've never disregarded any part of the bible. I just said certain scriptures aren't directly written to me. Again, if you believe differently, cool. Pray that I at some point have a clearer understanding of the scripture. ;)

MyGod

Sep 12th 2008, 01:44 AM

And what scripture did you get this from?
God's word is for all peoples,nations and etc....

2 Timothy 2:15: Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

livingword26

Sep 12th 2008, 01:50 AM

2 Timothy 2:15: Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2Ti 3:16
(16) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

cdo

Sep 12th 2008, 02:04 AM

2 Timothy 2:15: Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Ok...I agree "rightly dividing the word of truth" But....
1785060[/FONT]]living ~ my intent was not to mock. I apologize if I came across that way. I just have a sense of humor and thought it was funny. I do apologize though if I offended you.

People use Mark 16 to prove that they have the gift of healing and tongues. But, I rarely (only in Kentucky or somewhere down south) hear of anyone talking about serpents or drinking anything deadly. By the way, there are some down south who have handled snakes and died. That scripture wasn't written to or about us. It was written to the Nation of Israel.
Are you saying God is making a difference between all people,nation and so forth?God is no respector of persons

MyGod

Sep 12th 2008, 02:19 AM

Ok...I agree "rightly dividing the word of truth" But....

Are you saying God is making a difference between all people,nation and so forth?God is no respector of persons

God is making a difference between the Nation of Israel and Gentiles. In Matthew, Christ stated that He was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. That was the Nation of Israel. God was solely dealing w/the Nation of Israel from Genesis 11 to Acts. When Israel fell in Acts, there was no distinction between Jew and Gentile. In this dispensation, age of Grace, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. At one point, there was.

Also, I'm not saying it, the scriptures do. If we disagree, I'm fine w/that.

MyGod

Sep 12th 2008, 02:22 AM

2Ti 3:16
(16) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Right. I agree. All scripture is given to us by God. It's just not all talking to or about us. Otherwise, we would have to follow the ten commandments for salvation, we would be enduring to the end the same shall be saved (talking to the Nation of Israel, not members of the Body of Christ), we would be restricted from eating swine, etc. etc. When we read, we have to understand who the scripture is directly talking to and about.

Buck shot

Sep 12th 2008, 02:29 AM

Oregongrown

Sep 12th 2008, 02:57 AM

I see now. I just hadn't heard it put that way. And amen as the last thing I want each day of my life is to go by my own brain instead of the leading of the Holy Spirit;) Love you sis(hope you got all my news about today) thank you again for the prayers:) ysic, denise:hug:

Yes, Sorry as in if you take it upon yourself to speak your own "premeditate"word"instead of the Holy Spirit speaking. My understanding is this is the time that the out-pouring of the Holy Spirit takes over what we shall speak.

This was something I added but is the Word of God.The unforgivable sin,I believe to understand that it means if you choose to speak your own fleshly words....this would be blaspheme to the Holy Spirit.But please check this out yourself. in Christ,Darlene

Oregongrown

Sep 12th 2008, 03:20 AM

I'm almost ashamed to say it but this cracked me up. It baffles me how people believe some parts of that verse but skip over the rest. I asked a friend of mine who believes he has the gift of tongues, "why don't you handle snakes or drink deadly poison?" He didn't have an answer.

I have said before that the Bible is called "God's Word" not "Gods Words". Maybe silly to some but that speaks to me that I am not to take things out or add to the Word of God. I truly believe it is introcately woven together to present a clear picture of The Christ. I also see that it is our human nature to take what we want or are comfortable with and leave the rest. I have found a closer relationship with Christ though by "taking" the uncomfy stuff because it not only brings more humility, but more faith that I won't be destroyed by that humility but actually, be lifted higher. Please no one misunderstand "lifted higher" not to be as in glorified, geesh, I mean to die more to self and live more for Christ.

God bless all, ysic, denise:D

livingword26

Sep 12th 2008, 04:19 AM

Oregongrown

Sep 12th 2008, 04:31 AM

I'm sorry, I just have to post this again. It is just so clear.

Mar 16:15-18
(15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

It is just as clear to those who see it in another way LW. Someone said something earlier about "leaving it where it belongs" in God's capable hands. What's most important to me, I have to ask "being right" or being right with God. Anyone can have the last word and "feel" we have arrived in proving we are right. It is much harder to be humble and let the Lord do what He Wills with what is planted.

I hope I said that in the way I meant it. With love and true humility. I may not believe as someone else does, but no where do I see Jesus trying to force His Word on anyone. He laid it out and it is our choice to pick it up or not. I've been working on my witnessing "skills" or lack thereof. I've learned much and some very lately. I was trying to push someone here. It was wrong and I pray I don't ever do it again. With Gods help anything is possible:)

God bless, a sister in Christ, denise

livingword26

Sep 12th 2008, 10:46 AM

It is just as clear to those who see it in another way LW. Someone said something earlier about "leaving it where it belongs" in God's capable hands. What's most important to me, I have to ask "being right" or being right with God. Anyone can have the last word and "feel" we have arrived in proving we are right. It is much harder to be humble and let the Lord do what He Wills with what is planted.

I hope I said that in the way I meant it. With love and true humility. I may not believe as someone else does, but no where do I see Jesus trying to force His Word on anyone. He laid it out and it is our choice to pick it up or not. I've been working on my witnessing "skills" or lack thereof. I've learned much and some very lately. I was trying to push someone here. It was wrong and I pray I don't ever do it again. With Gods help anything is possible:)

God bless, a sister in Christ, denise

I'm sorry. I guess I haven't seen anyone explain this verse away. Do you see it another way? What is it? To me this verse says that the gospel is to be preached to every creature. Those that believe and are baptized will be saved. And these signs will follow them that believe. They will cast out demons in Jesus , they will speak with new tongues, if they lay their hands on the sick, they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Mar 16:15-18
(15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

As far as Jesus the way Jesus presented the truth, that varied with who he was speaking with. It wasn't always user friendly or politically correct. Especially when His Spirit was called into question.

I'm sorry you think my motive is to "get the last word in". While I have fallen victim to strife many times. I have worked very hard at presenting the truth on this thread. If you do not like it, I would welcome the opposing viewpoint. But I really don't need put in my place by you.

Ravenwspr

Sep 12th 2008, 12:07 PM

Oregongrown

Sep 12th 2008, 02:52 PM

I was once told by my baptist pastor (at the time) that because I had visited a non denominational church with a friend, that before I could return to sit in any services or participate I would have to be indoctrinated before a committee of deacons to prove that I had not accepted any belief in functions of the Holy Spirit.

Then he told me there is no use for the Holy Spirit today because we have computers capable of translating all languages, and the function of the Holy Spirit ended when Christ ascended. Basically he believed that the only function of the Holy Spirit was SIT as you all are calling it.

I am still sad today about the whole conversation, I loved the people there very much. I did not argue, but I did not ever return and I was the youth director and womens leader for going on 5 years. So much for my first experience sitting in a service different denomination. Once. *sighs*

I myself believe that The Holy Spirit is our comforter and indwells us as believers and can function through us to accomplish tasks that God wants to use us for, and that all of those functions should be in love.

I do not believe that showing love for eachother is done in mockery, nor would it convince anyone to listen to a perspective that you try to share when you feel you are correct.

We are to be known and reckognized by this world by the love we show for eachother.
Why so much dissention? Whats really wrong?
*puzzled*

the thing I see separating folks(believers, and well, as well as unbelievers)is ego or pride. I know those aren't the same, atleast I don't think so? And all that is wrong with this "world" is sin. I might know a little of how you feel as I ask that question sometimes. You know like "but we are supposed to be Christ-like". Jesus said He did not come to unite but to divide. I can look around anywhere and see the division. Another time in the Word it's said "separate the sheep from the goats". You are right on in your writing though and it just shines your love which is God's shining through you. I believe it breaks His heart as well but He is God and He knows all. No surprises for Him. As I mentioned above, if we didn't have a brain we would probably not be divided. Atleast it is my "thinking" that gets me in the most trouble.

God bless you sis, denise :hug:

Oregongrown

Sep 12th 2008, 03:29 PM

livingword26

Sep 12th 2008, 10:32 PM

I believe these verses are pretty straight-forward. Those that believe will see these signs. My thoughts are to reinforce their belief. Jesus did miracles like these, and He said His disciples(followers would do even greater). But I don't think these Truths are the issue of this thread. The issue is, for me, is the possibility of the mis-use of gifts, or maybe the counterfeits. Not all are given the same gifts as we see in Cor. Counterfeit like when Moses was before the pharoah and the pharoahs wizards or magicians made the snakes? Then Moses dropped His staff and the snake from the Lord swallowed them up. His was genuine, theirs counterfeit. Maybe not a good analogy. Anyway. I totally believe all these things have taken place at one time or another. And I believe these things can be being done today. The Holy Spirit through someone can do anything. God can do anything. But it is like the church at Corinth. Folks were abusing their gifts for their own gain or edification. I think that is what we are talking about on this thread, as I see it.

God bless, ysic, denise
PS the other side of the coin, or the other extreme, is thinking God can't do those things today. imo

For me this thread has been about those who are denying the gifts of the Spirit, or outright calling them "of the Devil". His gifts are powerful, and needed by His Church. To turn those who would seek them away is a horrible blasphemy. There is no doubt that there are people trying to "use" the gifts with their flesh, that is pretending to have the gifts, whether they are conscious of it or not. There are churches that put so much pressure on their congregations, including children, to manifest the gifts, that they almost have to adopt this "false spiritual gift", and that is a tragedy. But that does not remove the importance, or the reality of the true gifts, that God wants His followers to have.

MyGod

Sep 12th 2008, 10:59 PM

I'm sorry. I guess I haven't seen anyone explain this verse away. Do you see it another way? What is it? To me this verse says that the gospel is to be preached to every creature. Those that believe and are baptized will be saved. And these signs will follow them that believe. They will cast out demons in Jesus , they will speak with new tongues, if they lay their hands on the sick, they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Mar 16:15-18
(15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

As far as Jesus the way Jesus presented the truth, that varied with who he was speaking with. It wasn't always user friendly or politically correct. Especially when His Spirit was called into question.

I'm sorry you think my motive is to "get the last word in". While I have fallen victim to strife many times. I have worked very hard at presenting the truth on this thread. If you do not like it, I would welcome the opposing viewpoint. But I really don't need put in my place by you.

living,

I believe those scriptures were specifically adressed to the Nation of Israel, Jews. I'm not a jew, I'm a greek. . . gentile. The scriptures say that Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel at that time.

Matthew 15:24 - But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

When God saved Saul of Tarsus and his name was changed to Paul, there was no difference between Jew and Gentile. There still isn't.

Romans 10:12 - For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

We're all members of the body of Christ. So, when the scriptures talk about signs following them that believe, those signs followed Jews. We weren't even talked about as chosen people (the elect). . . at that time.

1 Corinthians 1:22 - For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

After Israel fell, salvation was by grace through faith plus nothing. We solely rest on the finished work of Christ on the cross. We don't have to work to get to heaven. When we trust in ourselves (works), we try to add to what Christ did.

Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Paul didn't come to baptize us, water baptism that is.

1 Corinthians 1:17 - For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Once we accept Christ as our personal savior, we are spiritually baptized.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

That's what I meant by right division. Non-believers think the bible is full of contradictions. One minute the bible says you have to be baptized, then Paul's saying Christ sent him not to baptize. One minute people are baptized by one Spirit, then you read elsewhere and there is water baptism. One minute you can only eat herb bearing seed, then you read another book of the bible and any thing eaten w/thanksgiving can be eaten. These are not contradictions. You just have to determine which instructions were given to which group of people. There are only two, jew and gentile in the old testament and thru acts. Starting romans, there is no difference. The bible speaks of us as members of the body of Christ.

You remember the story of the Syrophenician woman who wanted Jesus to heal her daughter? Remember Jesus told her, "Let the children (Israel . . . Jews) first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's (Israel. . . Jews) bread, and to cast it unto the dogs."

God in his infinite wisdom knew all along that Israel would fall and we would be blessed through their fall.

Romans 11:11 - I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Now, Jew and Gentile can be saved solely because of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

MyGod

Sep 12th 2008, 11:22 PM

I have said before that the Bible is called "God's Word" not "Gods Words". Maybe silly to some but that speaks to me that I am not to take things out or add to the Word of God. I truly believe it is introcately woven together to present a clear picture of The Christ. I also see that it is our human nature to take what we want or are comfortable with and leave the rest. I have found a closer relationship with Christ though by "taking" the uncomfy stuff because it not only brings more humility, but more faith that I won't be destroyed by that humility but actually, be lifted higher. Please no one misunderstand "lifted higher" not to be as in glorified, geesh, I mean to die more to self and live more for Christ.

God bless all, ysic, denise:D

You're totally right, I would never take parts out of the bible. I believe the entire bible, Genesis to Revelation is the inspired word of God. But, it is not all written to or directly about me. That's why, as I said in my most recent post, you get an example when you see different instructions given w/regard to food.

First God tells Adam:

Genesis 1:29 - And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Then, he says:

Leviticus 11:7 - And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.

And:

Deuteronomy 14:8 - And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.

Lastly, Paul tells members of the Body of Christ:

1 Timothy 4:4 - For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

Non believers will joke and say God was confused or that these are contradictions. They're not. They're simply different instructions. Have you noticed in the Bible the words "Times Past," "Ages to Come," and "But Now?" Those are different dispensations. God dispensed different instructions to different people at different times. That doesn't mean any part of the bible should be tossed out. It just isn't all specifically addressed to you or me, in terms of instructions. All of the Bible is for us, just not all to us.

Times past is Genesis thru Acts, But Now is Romans thru Philemons, and Ages to Come is prophecy. . . Hebrews thru Revelation. Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles. He wrote Romans thru Philemons. There, you will find your specific instructions. At least, that's where I get mine. :D

MyGod

Sep 12th 2008, 11:35 PM

For me this thread has been about those who are denying the gifts of the Spirit, or outright calling them "of the Devil". His gifts are powerful, and needed by His Church. To turn those who would seek them away is a horrible blasphemy. There is no doubt that there are people trying to "use" the gifts with their flesh, that is pretending to have the gifts, whether they are conscious of it or not. There are churches that put so much pressure on their congregations, including children, to manifest the gifts, that they almost have to adopt this "false spiritual gift", and that is a tragedy. But that does not remove the importance, or the reality of the true gifts, that God wants His followers to have.

Living,

I've enjoyed the sharing of scriptures. I don't think there's anything at all wrong w/it. In fact, the scriptures talk about perfecting of the saints. I think that's what's mostly been done here. I only have a problem and will bow out when people start to say things like "I don't know how much clearer this could be," or "what are you not understanding?" You know what I mean? I'm not at all saying you've done that. I just don't think that's cool. My thing is, there are certain dispensational truths we are going to disagree about, even as Christians. I try to focus on salvation. I don't mind at all sharing my belief about other things (i.e. water baptism, healing, prophesying, speaking in tongues, etc) and hearing why you disagree w/me (scripturally, that is). But, I'm not gonna go back and forth and back and forth and back and forth (ok, you get my point. . :D) with anyone. Because, you'll believe what you believe in the end and likewise, I'm sticking to my belief. Not because I'm close minded, but because what I'm sharing is fact, to me.

I'm not saying this is what you're doing but in the past, I don't know what it is, but I've run into people who want to convince me that they speak in tongues or have the gift of prophecy. It's almost like they think I'm accusing them of lying. In fact, that's what a co-worker's wife said to me "so, you think I'm lying and faking." I said no. I just don't believe in this dispensation we are given those gifts. We should just agree to disagree if we believe differently and scripture has been shown to support our beliefs. It shouldn't end w/belittling or condescending remarks. Not saying you did again, just saying in general.

Oregongrown

Sep 12th 2008, 11:42 PM

Oregongrown

Sep 12th 2008, 11:45 PM

Oregongrown

Sep 12th 2008, 11:59 PM

living ~ my intent was not to mock. I apologize if I came across that way. I just have a sense of humor and thought it was funny. I do apologize though if I offended you.

People use Mark 16 to prove that they have the gift of healing and tongues. But, I rarely (only in Kentucky or somewhere down south) hear of anyone talking about serpents or drinking anything deadly. By the way, there are some down south who have handled snakes and died. That scripture wasn't written to or about us. It was written to the Nation of Israel.

I admit I thought it was funny too as I could sort of see a person saying it:) And the deal is, it's not mocking God at all because that is not what God meant. I see it this way. Anyone that thinks they should go pick up a snake and see if it bites and kills them "is" testing God and deserves some mocking or atleast some good lesson from God. I don't see any posts from people here that think they are supposed to do that so no one should be offended. Maybe I've missed a post though. That's always possible. Anyway, I see the snake thing as an example of the troubles/adversities the disciples would face in a fallen world. Jesus was assuring them they would not be alone and they would be protected, whether it was a serpent, or any attempt to "delete" the Word of God. That is how I see the verses on snakes not poisoning us.

God bless, denise

Oregongrown

Sep 13th 2008, 12:03 AM

Living,

I've enjoyed the sharing of scriptures. I don't think there's anything at all wrong w/it. In fact, the scriptures talk about perfecting of the saints. I think that's what's mostly been done here. I only have a problem and will bow out when people start to say things like "I don't know how much clearer this could be," or "what are you not understanding?" You know what I mean? I'm not at all saying you've done that. I just don't think that's cool. My thing is, there are certain dispensational truths we are going to disagree about, even as Christians. I try to focus on salvation. I don't mind at all sharing my belief about other things (i.e. water baptism, healing, prophesying, speaking in tongues, etc) and hearing why you disagree w/me (scripturally, that is). But, I'm not gonna go back and forth and back and forth and back and forth (ok, you get my point. . :D) with anyone. Because, you'll believe what you believe in the end and likewise, I'm sticking to my belief. Not because I'm close minded, but because what I'm sharing is fact, to me.

I'm not saying this is what you're doing but in the past, I don't know what it is, but I've run into people who want to convince me that they speak in tongues or have the gift of prophecy. It's almost like they think I'm accusing them of lying. In fact, that's what a co-worker's wife said to me "so, you think I'm lying and faking." I said no. I just don't believe in this dispensation we are given those gifts. We should just agree to disagree if we believe differently and scripture has been shown to support our beliefs. It shouldn't end w/belittling or condescending remarks. Not saying you did again, just saying in general.

Like one of the mods put it, have a lively discussion, enjoy, just don't go for the jugular:rofl:

God bless, ysic,denise

MyGod

Sep 13th 2008, 12:15 AM

Like one of the mods put it, have a lively discussion, enjoy, just don't go for the jugular:rofl:

God bless, ysic,denise

Lol. Exactly. We can converse w/o doing so. If we Christians can't do it, who can?

Oregongrown

Sep 13th 2008, 02:14 AM

Lol. Exactly. We can converse w/o doing so. If we Christians can't do it, who can?
scrutiny, it is christians. Mirror Christ. It's one thing to have difficulties with unbelievers but amongst ourselves, well, that's gotta be a sin.

God bless, a sister in Christ, denise:)

Lady Ashanti

Sep 16th 2008, 09:24 PM

You can experience many things but that does not make them right. I understand that in life we are lead by our experiences most of the time, but this is not enough when it comes to interpreting the word of God. We can easily be lead astray by experience and feelings. The word must come 1st in our understanding. If it says something contrary to our experience or how we feel we must believe it.

And "wondercoolguy" when someone gives you scripture respond to the scripture. You have made some comments that seem arrogant, mean and unrelated to the topic of tongues. If that is not your intention you should make it known.

If one's experiences are supported by scripture than this makes them valid.

Also, every comment I have made is related to "tongues", now whether they have been arrogant, and mean is a matter of opinion. I have confidence in God, and the things He has revealed to me, and the boldness to proclaim them without reservation.

I have not disrespected anyone on any of these boards, if you see me as "arrogant, and mean" then maybe you shouldn't communicate with me because your personal opinion of me is definitely "off topic", and unwarranted. I will see to it that I do not respond to any of your posts, or threads.

Be Blessed...

amazzin

Sep 16th 2008, 09:34 PM

Alright folks

Everyone stay calm. This is not a damnable doctrine.

Lady Ashanti

Sep 16th 2008, 09:36 PM

Alright folks

Everyone stay calm. This is not a damnable doctrine.

Amen to that!!!:pp

faithfulfriend

Sep 17th 2008, 01:49 AM

blue sneakers

Sep 17th 2008, 09:02 AM

shalom

i know got whispers in images in my most dark and purest way in my heart poured innocence, abiding, am only getting orders were to move in all of God made battleground, so we speak in worship with the heart straight on to God the chestpiece garment symbol on what god wants a shipyard ministry to do, am really afraid to speak tongues, and don't know what could harm, so i call safest, silent communications, when god calls, and i know the difference, perhaps, God comaufladges me blinding them when am around things and people, so god who is in control of sins, tongues, his way of needed communicate is specific always of every servant and soldier in prayer mode,i don't think we could ever call any mode ignorant mode, that kind of thing belongs to levithian dead priests...

silent mode of speaking tongues in closer heightening, when i have to itch not to or to control, and speak the word in a reactive way not proactive way of that need of communication, well, i am built in mind like a poet non-linear, so still i don't think it's spaced when each of us is blooded on Him, christ in heart.

blue sneakers

Longsufferer

Sep 17th 2008, 11:13 AM

If there were no more speaking in tongues, as many of the wise and prudent teach, then there could be also no more words of wisdom, or words of knowledge, or faith. Can you imagine, if we cannot have faith any longer? We cannot pick and choose what we will include, and exclude from God´s Word, as if we have any right to do so. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Besides this, we who believe are already suppose to accept that speaking in tongues exists, because tongues are for those that believe not, not for those who already believe; because they were already suppose to have accepted it. But if we as professing Christians say tongues do not exist, then we make our believing as unbelief. We cannot have it both ways.
(I Corinthians.14:22a)

wondercoolguy

Sep 17th 2008, 12:32 PM

And "wondercoolguy" when someone gives you scripture respond to the scripture. You have made some comments that seem arrogant, mean and unrelated to the topic of tongues. If that is not your intention you should make it known.

If you go back and read the thread most of my post are scripture and I have rebutted with scripture back. Or I have given the correct interpretation of the verse.

The flat fact is that tongues disappeared out of Christian Churches until a church is LA decided to bring it back. The pagans where the tongue speaks up until that point. So for about 1800 years Christians did not speak in tongues. God wouldn't have made such an "important" gift go away and come back. Most tongue speakers reject this fact because it would mean they are wrong.

Well do your research every major Christian scholar of each generation who have things published never addressed or talked about tongues. If it were a practiced doctrine SOMEONE would have either A validated it or B wrote against it.

It was only when AMERICA, In LA of all places Liberal California decieded to bring it back. But I am putting my money where my mouth is I have a meeting this weekend with the Pastor of a tongue speaking church. Not to debate but to listen and ask questions. I'm praying for an open heart and mind.

Marc B

Sep 21st 2008, 03:23 AM

Definition of tongues in the Greek:

of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication, a language (specially, one naturally unacquired):--tongue.

Pay special attention to the bold text.

Tongue (glossa) in Greek simply means language. I didn't make it up, look it up for yourself if you don't believe me.

Referencing I Corinthians 14 below:

1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

Signification = able to be 1. Spoken, 2. Understood, 3. Interpreted, 4. Written, 5. Read

Tongue = Language. It's honestly that simple. Read through Acts 2 and I Corinthians 14 using the word "language(s)" in place of "tongue(s)" and it will make complete sense.

I have an in depth Bible study on it if anyone wants it....pm me. :D

What he said. :agree:

I spent a better part of the day studying the entire book of Acts today and the context of speaking in tongues at that time is quite clear. The believers of the day were given the gift by the Holy Spirit of God so they could teach the Way to people of various nations and languages in the known world at that time. Whether anyone today has the gift is another matter. I certainly won't dismiss the possiblity, I don't know what or how God plans to use each of us for His plan of salvation nor does anyone else. He may well indeed have given the gift of tongues to some as He has given the gift of healing to others.

wondercoolguy

Sep 22nd 2008, 04:28 AM

The type of tongues that were used in Acts are IMO gone. They have been replaced by Missionaries. God needed the use of tongues to start the initial spread of the gospel.

One thing to notice is that the tongues that were used in Acts you didn't need an interrupter but for some reason in Corinth you did. They were using it wrong chapter 14 is Paul giving them the verbal beat down.

Lovesickworshipper

Sep 22nd 2008, 04:51 AM

hahahahaha,

this whole thread is silly to me :)
not in a mocking way, I just giggled when I read it. I think Tongues is like Holy laughter, don't know how many of you have experienced that but we've been in worship sessions where everyone will just laugh uncontrollably for hours.

Is it too strange for the God who spit in dirt and rubbed it on a guy's eyes to have people continue to speak in tongues? The same God who instructed a prophet to tell a man to strike his arrows on the ground and this become the number of victories he would have in battle?

I use tongues in situations where I no longer have words. It feels as if it's linked to a part of my spirit that I can't consciously access. I'm not sure exactly how it works except that it builds up my spirit. It gives me strength to do what God has asked of me. I think it's fun to write down (phonetically) what I'm praying in tongues. OFten times I've found the words in various languages. for instance, there was a particular praise service where all I could say was one word in my tongues language over and over and over again. Later I heard the word in a song and asked the worship leader what the word meant. He said it meant "holy" in Hebrew. I dunno, just cool little "yay God" moments :)

in anything, if it isn't against God and it might be just a little tiny bit of Him...I want it.

In Love or Not at all,

Nate