They are all going to laugh at you

[oscarkipling]

Well it’s that time of the year again here in the land of Stars and Stripes. As ole Oscar sees it, all this talk of isle reaching and horse changing turns into the same old bootstraps and jackboots…you know, politics as usual. Is it just me or do we constantly make enemies of each other…or more specifically we generalize each other and turn that general into General Rommel. When People believe that the other side hates them, hates what they stand for, and would just as soon destroy them…it creates an exceedingly fine glue. I’m not going to pretend that some people don’t hate each other, but it’s also a commonly manufactured perception. Sometimes we manufacture it all by ourselves…its delusion, its defense and at its worst, its offense. My question is there anything in the bible that addresses this particularly successful delusion directly?

[mcgyver]

Good morning,

Not really sure what you're asking, but I'll give it my best shot :)

The bible tells us in several places that we (Christians) would be hated...

Jesus Speaking:

Matthew 10:22: "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved."

Matthew 24:9: "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake."

Mark 13:13: "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved"

These are a couple of examples.

Our response biblically is summed up in Matthew 5:44-45 (once again Jesus speaking):

"But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

Hope that answers your question....:)

Interesting quote you used BTW...;)

Do you think he is correct?

[oscarkipling]

Good morning,

Not really sure what you're asking, but I'll give it my best shot :)

The bible tells us in several places that we (Christians) would be hated...

Jesus Speaking:

Matthew 10:22: "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved."

Matthew 24:9: "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake."

Mark 13:13: "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved"

These are a couple of examples.

Our response biblically is summed up in Matthew 5:44-45 (once again Jesus speaking):

"But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

Hope that answers your question....:)

Interesting quote you used BTW...;)

Do you think he is correct?


yeah i edited my OP, i didn't want to go into it because i didn't want people to get confused about what i was asking, looks like it had the opposite effect lol. anyway as far as the nietzsche quote, yes I believe that he said something that is probably true, but i might have used dangerous or threatening in there somewhere. thanks for the postage

[oscarkipling]

Good morning,

Not really sure what you're asking, but I'll give it my best shot :)

The bible tells us in several places that we (Christians) would be hated...

Jesus Speaking:

Matthew 10:22: "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved."

Matthew 24:9: "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake."

Mark 13:13: "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved"

These are a couple of examples.

Our response biblically is summed up in Matthew 5:44-45 (once again Jesus speaking):

"But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

Hope that answers your question....:)

Interesting quote you used BTW...;)

Do you think he is correct?



ha I just realized that i didn't even address the content of your post.

I did have at least some of those passages in mind when I started thinking about this. But it made me wonder if The bible did address how those words could be misconstrued or...hmmm help one to create a perception of others that might not be aligned with reality. I wondered if the bible said anything that would help to inoculate a Christian against those slinking cats creeping behind the lilacs...I doubt that anyone could honestly look at those passages and not agree that they bear a resemblance to CNN or fox news this morning, but i'm not sure what countermeasures are in place...dig?

[mcgyver]

Gotcha! ;)

Yeah, the re-worded OP is a lot clearer...:)

Thanks!

[Tanya~]

Is it just me or do we constantly make enemies of each other…or more specifically we generalize each other and turn that general into General Rommel.

I think this happens, yes.

When People believe that the other side hates them, hates what they stand for, and would just as soon destroy them…it creates an exceedingly fine glue. I’m not going to pretend that some people don’t hate each other, but it’s also a commonly manufactured perception.

I don't know what you mean by the fine glue, but I would agree that people in general (Christian or otherwise) can sometimes feel persecuted when no persecution is intended.

Sometimes we manufacture it all by ourselves…its delusion, its defense and at its worst, its offense. My question is there anything in the bible that addresses this particularly successful delusion directly?

Not that I can think of specifically, but we are given instruction on how we are to treat our enemies. As it turns out, this policy is a good one whether that enemy is real or perceived.


Matt 5:43-48

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
NKJV

Rom 12:14
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.
NKJV

[oscarkipling]

I think this happens, yes.

I don't know what you mean by the fine glue, but I would agree that people in general (Christian or otherwise) can sometimes feel persecuted when no persecution is intended.



what I meant about the glue was that when people in a group feel that they they have a common enemy it often brings them closer together and strengthens their resolve.


Not that I can think of specifically, but we are given instruction on how we are to treat our enemies. As it turns out, this policy is a good one whether that enemy is real or perceived.

Matt 5:43-48

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
NKJV
Rom 12:14
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.
NKJV


yeah, I thought about that as well, but I still wondered if there was any more specific treatment...loving your enemy can be a fine way to be, but it still doesn't provide any protection from certain consequences such as being manipulated...but I guess if you hold on to God's unchanging hand then thats the extent of your anti-manipulation array.

[Tanya~]

what I meant about the glue was that when people in a group feel that they they have a common enemy it often brings them closer together and strengthens their resolve.

For Christians, the glue is not a common enemy, but a family connection. We all have one Father, we have one Savior.


yeah, I thought about that as well, but I still wondered if there was any more specific treatment...loving your enemy can be a fine way to be, but it still doesn't provide any protection from certain consequences such as being manipulated...but I guess if you hold on to God's unchanging hand then thats the extent of your anti-manipulation array.

The knowledge of the truth and wisdom protects believers from all sorts of things, including deception or manipulation by those who might have less than honorable intent. But even so, the Christian ethic is not the same as yours.

Matt 5:38-42

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic , let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.
NKJV

[oscarkipling]

For Christians, the glue is not a common enemy, but a family connection. We all have one Father, we have one Savior.


alright....actually not alright...I don't believe that its not a glue for Christians. Sure its not the only glue, but its glue none the less....but i guess we can just agree to disagree on this


The knowledge of the truth and wisdom protects believers from all sorts of things, including deception or manipulation by those who might have less than honorable intent. But even so, the Christian ethic is not the same as yours.Matt 5:38-42

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic , let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.
NKJV


hmm, Christians in general don't seem especially shielded from manipulation to me, but hey okay...but as far as my ethics go, I'd have to say that that passage would not be an accurate representation of them...I don't even think that its an accurate representation of Christian ethics.

[Tanya~]

hmm, Christians in general don't seem especially shielded from manipulation to me, but hey okay...but as far as my ethics go, I'd have to say that that passage would not be an accurate representation of them...I don't even think that its an accurate representation of Christian ethics.

I completely agree with you that Christians are not especially shielded from manipulation. The knowledge of the truth, and wisdom, do not come automatically just because one becomes a Christian. Believers have to pursue knowledge and wisdom.

Jesus' teaching is the Christian ethic. Whether a given Christian follows it or not is another issue.

[oscarkipling]

I completely agree with you that Christians are not especially shielded from manipulation. The knowledge of the truth, and wisdom, do not come automatically just because one becomes a Christian. Believers have to pursue knowledge and wisdom.

Jesus' teaching is the Christian ethic. Whether a given Christian follows it or not is another issue.


yeah I wanted to edit that a minute after i posted it, but you were already reading it so anyway yeah anyway i agree.

[Saved7]

Oscar, to address your question simply, Jesus told us to love our enemies, and not to return evil for evil, but to return good for evil, and in so doing we heap burning coals on their heads...ie, convict them of wrong doing.

As you said, hate begets hate.
But love....love begets love.
Jesus loves you, God is love, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.
God begot Jesus...love begot love and expressed that love in the ultimate sacrifice....by willingly laying down His life for you, in so doing paying your sin debt.
I guess the real burning question is, are we able to love in the face of hatred? Are you? It takes a mighty love, a love from God, to love like that. It's hard to do but through Christ many christians have acheived it, though many still fall short I'm sad to say.:(

[oscarkipling]

Oscar, to address your question simply, Jesus told us to love our enemies, and not to return evil for evil, but to return good for evil, and in so doing we heap burning coals on their heads...ie, convict them of wrong doing.

As you said, hate begets hate.
But love....love begets love.
Jesus loves you, God is love, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.
God begot Jesus...love begot love and expressed that love in the ultimate sacrifice....by willingly laying down His life for you, in so doing paying your sin debt.
I guess the real burning question is, are we able to love in the face of hatred? Are you? It takes a mighty love, a love from God, to love like that. It's hard to do but through Christ many christians have acheived it, though many still fall short I'm sad to say.:(

lets see, i'll start with the question you asked. I'm capable of loving someone who hates me I guess, but I imagine i'm more likely to be apathetic to such a person. Its really all contingent on the person. I guess biblical love is really something like being kind and lending a helping hand or somesuch...I dont really know what it mean , but I know it doesnt mean that I actually have to like the..so sure I coulld do that..to some extent.

ok with that out of the way, I truly dont understand how love alleviates all of the other problems that come with believing that someone hates you. It looks like the bible makes it really easy to believe that everyone else hates Christians and Christ, and my burning question was, is there any scripture that helps to clarify this....or does the scripture actually mean that we all hate you?

also ...from a biblical perspective ...how are love and hate defined?

[Tanya~]

It looks like the bible makes it really easy to believe that everyone else hates Christians and Christ, and my burning question was, is there any scripture that helps to clarify this....or does the scripture actually mean that we all hate you?

The Bible teaches that "the world" hates Christ, and His followers by extension; but not that every individual nonChristian hates every Christian.

It means the "world system" is incompatible with the ways of God, and there will be rejection/hatred because of this. I have the impression that you think we all have a persecution complex but that isn't the case. :)

also ...from a biblical perspective ...how are love and hate defined?

Love is summed up in the golden rule (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%207:12;&version=50;): treat others the way you want others to treat you.

Hate toward another person is actively seeking the other's harm.

[oscarkipling]

The Bible teaches that "the world" hates Christ, and His followers by extension; but not that every individual nonChristian hates every Christian.

It means the "world system" is incompatible with the ways of God, and there will be rejection/hatred because of this. I have the impression that you think we all have a persecution complex but that isn't the case. :)


yeah, I do think that we have a hate complex in general, not just Christians. I was thinking that the bible probably didn't mean that all non-Christians hated Christians, but I wasn't at all sure.


Love is summed up in the golden rule (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%207:12;&version=50;): treat others the way you want others to treat you.

Hate toward another person is actively seeking the other's harm.

danke!

translation

thanks :lol:

[Tanya~]

yeah, I do think that we have a hate complex in general, not just Christians.

How come?

danke!

translation

thanks :lol:

You're welcome! :D

[oscarkipling]

How come?



You're welcome! :D


Why do I think that we have a hate complex? Well to put it as concisely as possible, I believe it because that’s the way it appears. That’s how we act… The Christians want to destroy my way of life and vice versa. If “they” gain control the jig is up for us because they believe something different. They don’t want me to be able to do what I want. They are against us. Its one small step for man to equate different to hateful, happens all the time...sometimes it’s true, and that makes it so corrosive. I think people are basically inert, but all my fancy eelskin ideas don’t stop me from being sucked into the fray sometimes

[Tanya~]

Why do I think that we have a hate complex? Well to put it as concisely as possible, I believe it because that’s the way it appears. That’s how we act… The Christians want to destroy my way of life and vice versa. If “they” gain control the jig is up for us because they believe something different.

I see what you're saying, but the vast majority of Christians are not seeking to destroy your way of life. I won't pretend there are not some who would like to, but this isn't the teaching of Scripture. We are called to not judge nonChristians, to live peacefully side by side with non-Christians, and to not participate in the ungodly things people do. We are not called or instructed to go and try to stop people from doing their thing.

For example, let's say you're getting high and posting on the forum. My place is not to seek to destroy your activities, but rather to try to encourage you to find your peace in Christ rather than chemistry.

[oscarkipling]

I see what you're saying, but the vast majority of Christians are not seeking to destroy your way of life. I won't pretend there are not some who would like to, but this isn't the teaching of Scripture. We are called to not judge nonChristians, to live peacefully side by side with non-Christians, and to not participate in the ungodly things people do. We are not called or instructed to go and try to stop people from doing their thing.

For example, let's say you're getting high and posting on the forum. My place is not to seek to destroy your activities, but rather to try to encourage you to find your peace in Christ rather than chemistry.


haha, I think you might have slightly misconstrued what I meant with that example. I was illustrating an apporoximation of a hypothetical person's thought process. The point was that one group does not want to be like the other (unless they do) and if they had their way they would create a society that was conducive to their beliefs. That doesnt mean that they would force assimilation, but it's likely that autonomy would be increasingly difficult or at the very least uncomforatable. Comfort is important. Destruction can be a blaze but it is just as effective when it smolders. Barring God, every act of creation is first an act of destruction....not me picasso said that.





Also, why do I have to be a drug addict in your example, what are you trying to say???:rofl:

[Tanya~]

haha, I think you might have slightly misconstrued what I meant with that example. I was illustrating an apporoximation of a hypothetical person's thought process. The point was that one group does not want to be like the other (unless they do) and if they had their way they would create a society that was conducive to their beliefs. That doesnt mean that they would force assimilation, but it's likely that autonomy would be increasingly difficult or at the very least uncomforatable. Comfort is important. Destruction can be a blaze but it is just as effective when it smolders. Barring God, every act of creation is first an act of destruction....not me picasso said that.

Actually it has been tried more than once with more than one different religious group, and it doesn't work. You can't force faith, not even in the faithful! What might start out as an idea to make the perfect society turns into the most oppressive. I just want to encourage you by saying that most Christians are not seeking this for you, and certainly the Bible doesn't teach it.




Also, why do I have to be a drug addict in your example, what are you trying to say???:rofl:

Aw, I didn't have you as a drug addict! I thought it was funny and I'm glad you had the good humor to laugh at it too. :) I was running with your "eelskin ideas."

[oscarkipling]

Actually it has been tried more than once with more than one different religious group, and it doesn't work. You can't force faith, not even in the faithful! What might start out as an idea to make the perfect society turns into the most oppressive. I just want to encourage you by saying that most Christians are not seeking this for you, and certainly the Bible doesn't teach it.






Aw, I didn't have you as a drug addict! I thought it was funny and I'm glad you had the good humor to laugh at it too. :) I was running with your "eelskin ideas."

okay, I hate to ask, but what exactly are you saying that Christians don't want for me? I'm only asking because I think that we might be thinking differently about what we are talking about here.

[Tanya~]

okay, I hate to ask, but what exactly are you saying that Christians don't want for me? I'm only asking because I think that we might be thinking differently about what we are talking about here.

It's entirely possible that we're talking about different things, but Christians don't want to force you to conform to our beliefs.

[oscarkipling]

It's entirely possible that we're talking about different things, but Christians don't want to force you to conform to our beliefs.

Well, that wasn't precisely what I was trying to illustrate. It doesn't really matter that Christians don't want to "force" people to believe anything. I imagine this is close enough for government work though, so I can let it die, unless you want to know....because in that case I'll keep talking about it with you.

anyway I do have another bible question, does the bible say anything about generalizations or stereotypes...racial profiling or any of that humbuggery and somesuch whatsoforth and hence?

[Tanya~]

Well, that wasn't precisely what I was trying to illustrate. It doesn't really matter that Christians don't want to "force" people to believe anything. I imagine this is close enough for government work though, so I can let it die, unless you want to know....because in that case I'll keep talking about it with you.

Of course I'm still interested to know what you're thinking. :) It is important to separate Biblical teaching/ethics from what some Christians may or may not do though.

anyway I do have another bible question, does the bible say anything about generalizations or stereotypes...racial profiling or any of that humbuggery and somesuch whatsoforth and hence?

Not that I know of, but others might have some ideas so if you want to pursue that further I'd recommend a separate thread.

[oscarkipling]

Of course I'm still interested to know what you're thinking. :) It is important to separate Biblical teaching/ethics from what some Christians may or may not do though.


well okay...maybe I should ask this question first. would I be correct in my belief that a good Christian will attempt to correct an injustice or an immoral law whenever possible? If not "whenever possible" is there ever a time when measures are to be taken? Is there anything in the bible prohibiting such actions?



Not that I know of, but others might have some ideas so if you want to pursue that further I'd recommend a separate thread.

bah! soon I'll have enough threads to weave a smoking jacket.

[markinro]

well okay...maybe I should ask this question first. would I be correct in my belief that a good Christian will attempt to correct an injustice or an immoral law whenever possible? If not "whenever possible" is there ever a time when measures are to be taken? Is there anything in the bible prohibiting such actions?




bah! soon I'll have enough threads to weave a smoking jacket.

There are two laws - mans law and Gods law. If man makes a law which goes against God's law, as christians, obeying this law is enmity with God. Friendship with the world is enmity with God. The two which come to mind are legalizing abortion and legalizing homosexual marriage. We, as christians cannot compel anyone to stop these actions but you will be hard-pressed to find any endorsement. If the world hates us for this, we are to be of good cheer and turn the other cheek. The world hates us because they first hated Christ. There may be a few "zealous" christians and the world may interpret this as hate. Also remember, God doesn't hate anyone. He hates their sin because ultimately it will separate a man/woman from God for all eternity. If you need to get your hands around this concept, the relationship of a parent to a child is the best visible representation. So often, we only see love if it is expressed n the positive. We don't see love when we see a parent scolding a child for walking into the street.

[Tanya~]

would I be correct in my belief that a good Christian will attempt to correct an injustice or an immoral law whenever possible? If not "whenever possible" is there ever a time when measures are to be taken? Is there anything in the bible prohibiting such actions?

Christians are called to obey the governing authorities, and a "good Christian" would not bomb an abortion clinic or open fire on a gay wedding. We are not commanded or called to govern the lives of nonChristians by the Christian standard, and when we try to judge nonChristians we go against the teaching (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%205:9-13;&version=50;)of the New Testament.

Our responsibility toward nonChristians is to share the gospel with them so they can be saved from their sins and rescued from the future judgement.

[ServantofTruth]

Matthew's gospel chapters 5,6 & 7 - the Sermon on the Mount - are excellent for get a 'feel' on how we should all live - not just christians. Love SofTy. :)

[oscarkipling]

There are two laws - mans law and Gods law. If man makes a law which goes against God's law, as christians, obeying this law is enmity with God. Friendship with the world is enmity with God. The two which come to mind are legalizing abortion and legalizing homosexual marriage. We, as christians cannot compel anyone to stop these actions but you will be hard-pressed to find any endorsement.


Why cant a christian compel someone to stop those actions?


If the world hates us for this, we are to be of good cheer and turn the other cheek. The world hates us because they first hated Christ.There may be a few "zealous" christians and the world may interpret this as hate.Also remember, God doesn't hate anyone. He hates their sin because ultimately it will separate a man/woman from God for all eternity. If you need to get your hands around this concept, the relationship of a parent to a child is the best visible representation. So often, we only see love if it is expressed n the positive. We don't see love when we see a parent scolding a child for walking into the street.

okay, we might have to come back to this.

[oscarkipling]

Christians are called to obey the governing authorities, and a "good Christian" would not bomb an abortion clinic or open fire on a gay wedding. We are not commanded or called to govern the lives of nonChristians by the Christian standard, and when we try to judge nonChristians we go against the teaching (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%205:9-13;&version=50;)of the New Testament.

Our responsibility toward nonChristians is to share the gospel with them so they can be saved from their sins and rescued from the future judgement.

alright, With that said, in the US i'd like to think that we can get things changed through peaceful protest and elections...possibly even running for office ourselves. Is it against christian doctrine (ethics, tao..whatever you want to call it) to try and change laws that are immoral or unethical or somesuch and soforth?

[Tanya~]

alright, With that said, in the US i'd like to think that we can get things changed through peaceful protest and elections...possibly even running for office ourselves. Is it against christian doctrine (ethics, tao..whatever you want to call it) to try and change laws that are immoral or unethical or somesuch and soforth?

No, it isn't wrong for a Christian to seek to influence the society using lawful means.

[oscarkipling]

No, it isn't wrong for a Christian to seek to influence the society using lawful means.


That's what I was looking to know with my question, and now with that out of the way...A christian doesn't have to use force to change the way that a non-christian has to live. There can be laws enacted that could be seen as the slow smolder. If a group gains the power to change or enact laws they will inevitably create laws that are more conducive to their beliefs. That leaves groups with other ideals to live in a society that is less conducive to their own. They will adapt or they will be discontent. They can either try to change the laws or move to Guyana and start their own society with rules that they dont find objectionable. Either way this conflict of ideals can easily lead a person to believe that "they hate us"..."clearly if they don't want me to be able to do what I do then they must hate me". Especially with ideas of what is morally correct, its too easy to make a group with different (corrupt) moral values into a force of "evil"...and evil hates you, no doubt about that..i'm not saying its right or true, but it happens all the time...and its easy; almost automatic...its at least semi automatic.

so sure christians dont want to force me to be a christian, they can't...the best they could do is to force me to act like a christian would act in a given situation. By limiting my recourse to acting illegally or acting in the christian manner, it leaves one with an uncomfortable choice. This is true with any groups though...so...they all hate me.:spin:

[Tanya~]

I think you're a little more afraid about this than you need to be. When you look at the direction of Western culture, laws are going more and more against what would be considered Christian ideals. Our society is progressing more and more toward moral decay, and that's not good for anyone but it is the direction it's headed. I'm sure that people feel protective of what they believe to be ground that has been gained toward a more "progressive" morality in society, but it will ultimately be the ruin of it instead. Moral decay is not good for any society, as history has shown and as Scripture teaches.
Righteousness exalts a nation,
But sin is a reproach to any people.
~ Prov 14:34Having some Christian influence in our culture is a good thing and you shouldn't be afraid of it. God told Abraham that if there were 10 righteous people in the city of Sodom, He would not destroy it.

[oscarkipling]

I think you're a little more afraid about this than you need to be. When you look at the direction of Western culture, laws are going more and more against what would be considered Christian ideals. Our society is progressing more and more toward moral decay, and that's not good for anyone but it is the direction it's headed. I'm sure that people feel protective of what they believe to be ground that has been gained toward a more "progressive" morality in society, but it will ultimately be the ruin of it instead. Moral decay is not good for any society, as history has shown and as Scripture teaches.
Righteousness exalts a nation,
But sin is a reproach to any people.
~ Prov 14:34Having some Christian influence in our culture is a good thing and you shouldn't be afraid of it. God told Abraham that if there were 10 righteous people in the city of Sodom, He would not destroy it.


oh boy, I knew this would happen. I used Christianity as an example because this is a christian site, and I wanted examples of christian solutions. I wasn't writing about my fear of Christian influence, although i needed to illustrate that Christians can be perceived as something other than politically inert in order to explain my example. I am worried about people hating each other and people falsely "believing" that they are hated. I feel that they are both corrosive mentalities. I think that those mindsets impede our ability to consider and incorporate effective ideas from "all" ideologies, and yes, sometimes the ideologies themselves get in the way. The hate is what scares me, and the hate doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

As far as moral decay goes, well i have ideas about that too.

[Tanya~]

oh boy, I knew this would happen. I used Christianity as an example because this is a christian site, and I wanted examples of christian solutions. I wasn't writing about my fear of Christian influence.

Okay that's cool... just let me know what you're talking about and it helps me understand what you're getting at. ;) The clearer you can be, the better I can understand you.

I am worried about people hating each other and people falsely "believing" that they are hated. I feel that they are both corrosive mentalities.I totally agree. I don't think you'll generally find this to be the case among Christians though. The Christian ethic is all about love, not hate. While it is true that Christ warns us of persecution, we don't generally imagine persecution where there is none. Real persecution against Christians is happening in this world, but most of us know that our particular society is friendly to our faith and that we are not being persecuted right now, so we don't generally live under that cloud of hate either toward others or against ourselves.

The hate is what scares me, and the hate doesn't seem to be going anywhere.I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. I think there is hate on both sides but your perception of it is exaggerated. The vast majority of Christians don't hate anyone.

[oscarkipling]

Okay that's cool... just let me know what you're talking about and it helps me understand what you're getting at. ;) The clearer you can be, the better I can understand you.

I totally agree. I don't think you'll generally find this to be the case among Christians though. The Christian ethic is all about love, not hate. While it is true that Christ warns us of persecution, we don't generally imagine persecution where there is none. Real persecution against Christians is happening in this world, but most of us know that our particular society is friendly to our faith and that we are not being persecuted right now, so we don't generally live under that cloud of hate either toward others or against ourselves.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. I think there is hate on both sides but your perception of it is exaggerated. The vast majority of Christians don't hate anyone.

I try to be clear, but I fail more often than not. Anyway, maybe I do have an exaggerated perception of hate, and how it propagates...maybe my theories have more to do with myself than a general "us"...I don't know, I don't feel like I've blown it out of proportion, but I imagine that I wouldn't feel that way would, would I lol. Anyhow I wasn't trying to suggest more or less perceived or actual hate levels; with my example I wanted to illustrate what it is, why it happens, how it negatively affects us and why loving those that hate you doesnt appear to me to be the final solution. I don't think that this percieved hate has to be rampant in order to affect us. I believe that It can be subtle and destructive, and it can grow like pilot induced oscillations. I think it has and will play key roles in how societies develop. I think that its not always obvious when it happens. I think its as dangerous as hate, but still different enough that it can be address by itself....I think its important, I think that its real, I think that its a part of humanity and I think that its something that we should all watch for in ourselves...I cant really say beyond that whether or not i have the proportions all distorted...idk

[ServantofTruth]

I don't want to gate crash a 2 way discussion but....

Loving people we hate, you are right, is not the final solution. Matthew 6:43-47 is talking about how we should act in this physical life. It's practical, if you like.

The first and the last, the only uncreated being is the one God - YaHWeH in Genesis, Jesus Christ in the gospels and the Holy Spirit. The one God, all 3 parts of the trinity co-exist as one, from eternity to eternity and from Genesis chapter 1: verse 1 - Revelation 22:21.

The final solution always was in God's hands. Judgement and sentence. Love SofTy.

[oscarkipling]

I don't want to gate crash a 2 way discussion but....

Loving people we hate, you are right, is not the final solution. Matthew 6:43-47 is talking about how we should act in this physical life. It's practical, if you like.

The first and the last, the only uncreated being is the one God - YaHWeH in Genesis, Jesus Christ in the gospels and the Holy Spirit. The one God, all 3 parts of the trinity co-exist as one, from eternity to eternity and from Genesis chapter 1: verse 1 - Revelation 22:21.

The final solution always was in God's hands. Judgement and sentence. Love SofTy.

no problem, the more the merrier. I guess I understand what you are saying, but the question in the beginning was whether or not perceived hate was directly addressed in the bible. I don't really see what you are trying to tell me, other than it will all be sorted out by God....and that's fine, I just wondered if god had anything to say about it.

[Tanya~]

I think you're right about the damage hate and even perceived hate causes. This is precisely why Jesus tells us to love one another, and to love our enemies. This is the way it needs to be and the way it will be. Loving those who hate you is not the final solution, but as SOT said in so many words, it is practical for this age. Returning hate with hate certainly isn't the solution either, because you only escalate it by doing so. If you hate hate, then why become hateful? It makes no sense and it does not help you to focus on that which you hate/fear/despise.

The final solution though will be brought about by God's judgment. He will destroy the evildoers (including those who hate) and the righteous will shine like the stars in the sky.

Ps 36
1 An oracle within my heart concerning the transgression of the wicked:
There is no fear of God before his eyes.
2 For he flatters himself in his own eyes,
When he finds out his iniquity and when he hates.
3 The words of his mouth are wickedness and deceit;
He has ceased to be wise and to do good.
4 He devises wickedness on his bed;
He sets himself in a way that is not good;
He does not abhor evil.
NKJV

Dan 12:1-3
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
NKJV

[Tanya~]

Whether one is dealing with someone who actually hates you, or if you're dealing with someone who you think hates you but may not, the response is the same. God wants us to treat them as we would have them treat us. For this reason there is no need to make the distinction between actual and perceived hate.

[oscarkipling]

Whether one is dealing with someone who actually hates you, or if you're dealing with someone who you think hates you but may not, the response is the same. God wants us to treat them as we would have them treat us. For this reason there is no need to make the distinction between actual and perceived hate.


well, okay. I do have a question though...Can you trust someone that hates you?

[Tanya~]

well, okay. I do have a question though...Can you trust someone that hates you?

Nope. Nor should I, nor should you. Trust God.

[RoadWarrior]

Why cant a christian compel someone to stop those actions?


In individual circumstances, a Christian with authority can stop certain behaviors in others, for example if a Christian is a policeman, or a judge, they have power and authority to interfere in the lives of people who are breaking civil laws.

Teachers who are Christians will teach in a way to encourage right behaviors and right thought patterns that are honoring to God.

Wherever true Christians are serving in the government of our country, you might observe a positive impact on society overall. If other types of people are in those positions, the Christians' impact is hindered by them.

Nonetheless, the modification of behavior is all that any of us can do. It takes a work of God to change the hearts and minds of people.

[ServantofTruth]

Perhaps a better question would be - Should we trust non believers and believers equally? It's getting at the difference between love among believers (a new commandment given by Jesus)/ christians - and how we should love our neighbour/ all people including non believers.

Love SofTy.

[oscarkipling]

Nope. Nor should I, nor should you. Trust God.


Alright, fine. I guess the bible does basically tell you not to trust in any man. I just always figured that it wasn't so clear cut as that...I thought it was something like "don't trust man your overall salvation" or somesuch. I guess I believe that you don't have to mistrust all the people all the time. I guess I believe that when you believe that someone hates you, no matter how much you love them, you can only reasonably assume that they are out to destroy you. In my opinion, that could keep a person from really ever seeing what they might have to offer...but i guess, to a christian, no one has anything good to offer anyway. So yeah, I guess its not really a problem for a Christian, because you get every good idea and bit of help directly from God. so yeah love is the answer when nobody can do anything worth doing for you anyway....or something like that...right?

[oscarkipling]

In individual circumstances, a Christian with authority can stop certain behaviors in others, for example if a Christian is a policeman, or a judge, they have power and authority to interfere in the lives of people who are breaking civil laws.

Teachers who are Christians will teach in a way to encourage right behaviors and right thought patterns that are honoring to God.

Wherever true Christians are serving in the government of our country, you might observe a positive impact on society overall. If other types of people are in those positions, the Christians' impact is hindered by them.

Nonetheless, the modification of behavior is all that any of us can do. It takes a work of God to change the hearts and minds of people.

Spot on! This is why I don't believe someone when they say that Christians don't want to change anyone...its not the whole truth to say that....in my opinion.

[oscarkipling]

Perhaps a better question would be - Should we trust non believers and believers equally? It's getting at the difference between love among believers (a new commandment given by Jesus)/ christians - and how we should love our neighbour/ all people including non believers.

Love SofTy.

I can say that you probably cant trust someone that hates you to do anything that might benefit you. as far as trusting equally a believe and a non believer...man, I say trust should be doled out on a case by case basis...I don't see why a believer or a non believer should be evaluated differently. Being a believer doesn't make you more trustworthy by virtue...its said all the time that being a christian doesn't get rid of one's flaws...anyway case by case seems reasonable to me...its not very practical in practice, but it would seem the best way to go.

[RoadWarrior]

Spot on! This is why I don't believe someone when they say that Christians don't want to change anyone...its not the whole truth to say that....in my opinion.

I'm not sure where you are getting your ideas. :hmm: All sane human beings, believers or unbelievers, have an internal desire to see things made better in this world. Why would we not? Look at the problems we have all around us. If you see someone walking into danger, would you not want to rescue them?

We don't stop being human when we become Christians. And there are many who call themselves "Christian" but do not live up to it. Sometimes business people might advertise with a fish on their logo, in an attempt to get Christians to trust them and give them money. Such people are not to be trusted.

A true Christian will gain business by doing honest work for reasonable pay, and you can trust them because they prove themselves to be trustworthy.

A true Christian will seek to help people out of bad situations, so that they can live a better, happier, fuller life.

[oscarkipling]

I'm not sure where you are getting your ideas. :hmm: All sane human beings, believers or unbelievers, have an internal desire to see things made better in this world. Why would we not? Look at the problems we have all around us. If you see someone walking into danger, would you not want to rescue them?

We don't stop being human when we become Christians. And there are many who call themselves "Christian" but do not live up to it. Sometimes business people might advertise with a fish on their logo, in an attempt to get Christians to trust them and give them money. Such people are not to be trusted.

A true Christian will gain business by doing honest work for reasonable pay, and you can trust them because they prove themselves to be trustworthy.

A true Christian will seek to help people out of bad situations, so that they can live a better, happier, fuller life.

Did you read the lead up to the question? don't get me wrong about what I'm saying...I asked the question about Christians changing things, because I felt that posters were saying that Christians don't want to change "me" or force "me" to change...and I just wanted to point out that that wasn't exactly true...in any case I wasn't pointing how Christians were the special case, but i was pointing out that Christians were not special in that regard. check out the thread, it might help you to see where I'm coming from.

fish logo? like the Jesus fish? I'm as jaded as the next consumer, but how can you so easily determine that these fish salesmen aren't just proud of their faith, displaying their righteous plumage in order to let you know that they believe what you do? but yeah anyhow I agree that people should be proven..research is a good tactic.


p.s. LOL I don't know Where my ideas come from, but sometimes I get so excited, that i have to arm wrestle my pen just to write it.

[markinro]

Did you read the lead up to the question? don't get me wrong about what I'm saying...I asked the question about Christians changing things, because I felt that posters were saying that Christians don't want to change "me" or force "me" to change...and I just wanted to point out that that wasn't exactly true...in any case I wasn't pointing how Christians were the special case, but i was pointing out that Christians were not special in that regard. check out the thread, it might help you to see where I'm coming from.

fish logo? like the Jesus fish? I'm as jaded as the next consumer, but how can you so easily determine that these fish salesmen aren't just proud of their faith, displaying their righteous plumage in order to let you know that they believe what you do? but yeah anyhow I agree that people should be proven..research is a good tactic.


p.s. LOL I don't know Where my ideas come from, but sometimes I get so excited, that i have to arm wrestle my pen just to write it.

So, what is it exactly you think christians are forcing you to change ? Why do you think you do not need to change ?

[oscarkipling]

So, what is it exactly you think Christians are forcing you to change ? Why do you think you do not need to change ?


Fine , I want to abort my next baby and marry my best friend frank at a liquor store that is open on Sunday all while not being taught intelligent design only or abstinence only sex education and then have a video game made about it that prominently features nudity and violence...and Christians (God only knows why) don't want me to be able to do that. Do you really want me to throw things in your face about "Pop Christian values" that I don't agree with so that we can quibble over their virtues? Man, that was so not the point of anything I wrote in this thread...my point is that Christians want to make the world more Christ friendly and athiest want to make the world more athiest freindly and pedophiles want to make the world more child rape freindly....thats just the way it is man, its not like I said that christians were sick for trying to change the world, just that they are trying. Don't you realize that just addressed this one post ago?....anyway maybe you were getting at something else...so have at it.

as far as needing to change...yes there is plenty about myself that i would like to change , but i'm not at all convinced that Christian or Buddhist or secular ideals are the ones to help me make those changes...maybe its a combination of them all, maybe its none.

[RoadWarrior]

Did you read the lead up to the question? don't get me wrong about what I'm saying...I asked the question about Christians changing things, because I felt that posters were saying that Christians don't want to change "me" or force "me" to change...and I just wanted to point out that that wasn't exactly true...in any case I wasn't pointing how Christians were the special case, but i was pointing out that Christians were not special in that regard. check out the thread, it might help you to see where I'm coming from.

fish logo? like the Jesus fish? I'm as jaded as the next consumer, but how can you so easily determine that these fish salesmen aren't just proud of their faith, displaying their righteous plumage in order to let you know that they believe what you do? but yeah anyhow I agree that people should be proven..research is a good tactic.


p.s. LOL I don't know Where my ideas come from, but sometimes I get so excited, that i have to arm wrestle my pen just to write it.

Yes I know you are very good and quite slick at switching the subject back and forth and twisting words about. Where is the value in this for you? There is a difference in Christians wanting to influence you for the better, and "forcing" you to change.

Of course we would love to see you abandon your mockery of Christ and of us, and become as we are. But you have choice, my friend. God's offer of salvation is extended freely to you, but is not forced on you. You are not here at our command, but at your own desire.

If you are so overly excited that you have to "wrestle with your pen" in order to write, there is perhaps something more going on with you than we can see through the small windows of our computer screens.

Nonetheless, many people here are praying for you. Not that we are forcing change upon you, but that we ask an infinite and Holy God to meet you in your place of desperation and have mercy on you.

The Christians who are answering you are at many different places in their own walk and growth, and will give their answers from that perspective. However we all have something in common. We have learned that life with Jesus is better than life without Him.

[Tanya~]

Alright, fine. I guess the bible does basically tell you not to trust in any man. I just always figured that it wasn't so clear cut as that...I thought it was something like "don't trust man your overall salvation" or somesuch.

Well your question to me was this:

Can you trust someone that hates you?

There are many people that we do need to trust and whom we can trust for various things but we can't nor should we trust someone who hates us. Ultimately, when it gets down to the wire at times, even people who love you may abandon you. We have to put our trust in God because even trustworthy people can and will fail us.

Ps 118:8-9
8 It is better to trust in the LORD
Than to put confidence in man.
9 It is better to trust in the LORD
Than to put confidence in princes.
NKJV


I guess I believe that you don't have to mistrust all the people all the time.

Christians don't mistrust all the people all the time either. But we don't rely on man. We rely on God because man cannot do what God can do.

I guess I believe that when you believe that someone hates you, no matter how much you love them, you can only reasonably assume that they are out to destroy you. In my opinion, that could keep a person from really ever seeing what they might have to offer..

It doesn't make any sense to put your trust in a person who hates you. That's just common sense.

.but i guess, to a christian, no one has anything good to offer anyway.

I am a Christian and I don't agree with that at all. God made man in His own image, and through Him anyone can do a great deal of good. Apart from Him we can do nothing of any ultimate, eternal value but everyone has something to offer and everyone has worth and value. Everyone is worth saving, even those who are despised by other people and who nobody trusts (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2019:1-10;&version=50;) and that is why Jesus came.

So yeah, I guess its not really a problem for a Christian, because you get every good idea and bit of help directly from God.

We do have to rely on other people in many ways, every day, but we put our trust in the Lord. The problem isn't in trusting a dentist with your oral health or a mechanic with your car. But if that dentist has a record of malpractice, will you trust him? If that mechanic has a reputation of ripping people off or doing lousy work will you trust him? If that kid on the schoolyard hates you, will you "open your mouth and close your eyes" so he can "give you a big surprise" when he asks you?

so yeah love is the answer when nobody can do anything worth doing for you anyway....or something like that...right?

I think the sarcasm is a cover for something else that's going on. What's troubling you Oscar? Maybe you can find it within yourself to learn how to put your trust in the Lord.

[oscarkipling]

Well your question to me was this:



There are many people that we do need to trust and whom we can trust for various things but we can't nor should we trust someone who hates us. Ultimately, when it gets down to the wire at times, even people who love you may abandon you. We have to put our trust in God because even trustworthy people can and will fail us.

Ps 118:8-9
8 It is better to trust in the LORD
Than to put confidence in man.
9 It is better to trust in the LORD
Than to put confidence in princes.
NKJV



Christians don't mistrust all the people all the time either. But we don't rely on man. We rely on God because man cannot do what God can do.



It doesn't make any sense to put your trust in a person who hates you. That's just common sense.



I am a Christian and I don't agree with that at all. God made man in His own image, and through Him anyone can do a great deal of good. Apart from Him we can do nothing of any ultimate, eternal value but everyone has something to offer and everyone has worth and value. Everyone is worth saving, even those who are despised by other people and who nobody trusts (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2019:1-10;&version=50;) and that is why Jesus came.



We do have to rely on other people in many ways, every day, but we put our trust in the Lord. The problem isn't in trusting a dentist with your oral health or a mechanic with your car. But if that dentist has a record of malpractice, will you trust him? If that mechanic has a reputation of ripping people off or doing lousy work will you trust him? If that kid on the schoolyard hates you, will you "open your mouth and close your eyes" so he can "give you a big surprise" when he asks you?



I think the sarcasm is a cover for something else that's going on. What's troubling you Oscar? Maybe you can find it within yourself to learn how to put your trust in the Lord.


yeah, you're right my latest posts have been very sarcastic...I was beginning to get frustrated because no one seems to get what I'm saying...and I guess that's not your fault..sorry

[Tanya~]

Okay but what's the REAL problem? You have some issue with Christ and something against Christians but you're having trouble articulating what it is. Maybe your mistrust and dislike of Christians is misplaced. Maybe your rejection of Christ is unfounded and foolish. Think about it. :)

[oscarkipling]

Okay but what's the REAL problem? You have some issue with Christ and something against Christians but you're having trouble articulating what it is. Maybe your mistrust and dislike of Christians is misplaced. Maybe your rejection of Christ is unfounded and foolish. Think about it. :)

well. I took a little walk and I thought about it, and my largest problem with Christianity is that I don't believe it...unfounded and foolish?...maybe, depends on how you look at it I guess.

[Tanya~]

well. I took a little walk and I thought about it, and my largest problem with Christianity is that I don't believe it...unfounded and foolish?...maybe, depends on how you look at it I guess.

Okay but a lot of people don't believe it, and they go on with their lives and don't bother with posting on Christian sites. There must be some reason that makes you feel like coming here and posing questions for us, or is it just boredom and you need something to do? Are you searching for something, or are you just killing time?

[oscarkipling]

Okay but a lot of people don't believe it, and they go on with their lives and don't bother with posting on Christian sites. There must be some reason that makes you feel like coming here and posing questions for us, or is it just boredom and you need something to do? Are you searching for something, or are you just killing time?


I ask questions because I'm curious. I post on plenty of forums and do plenty of reading...so why Christianity specifically? I was raised with Christianity and its something that I think about often, my family goes to church and they talk to me about God (Christ) very frequently. Christianity is the religion with which I have had the most contact, and so I have many of questions about it. In a way it is who I am. I really want to understand Christianity, or at least understand why it makes sense to so many other people...especially people whom I share many alleles with. Some days I do come here out of boredom, or to laugh at the ridiculous things people say here and other days I come here with questions that I wonder about and would like to know what Christ had to say about them (like the original question that started this thread)...personally I don't attach any divine impetus to it all, because my personality is the questioning sort. I mean some people don't care to ask questions about anything, some people are all about questioning Islam...I don't know Tanya, but I'd like to find out.

[Tanya~]

That's fair enough, and you know that we're here to answer your questions. :) Thanks for telling a little about where you're coming from. It helps us to get to know you a little better. :)

[oscarkipling]

Alright let me apologize first for being so snarky earlier, I can be so immature sometimes. Anyway I'll try to reply without losing my bearing


Yes I know you are very good and quite slick at switching the subject back and forth and twisting words about. Where is the value in this for you?


well, I communicate in the way that I know how. I set out to get my point across, not to confuse. I don't try to make the connections in my mind apparent in the conversation...I guess that can look like I'm changing the subject or twisting words, but I like to think that in many situations my point is nuanced and requires several disparate seeming components. you understand?



There is a difference in Christians wanting to influence you for the better, and "forcing" you to change.


Please explain the difference to me.


Of course we would love to see you abandon your mockery of Christ and of us, and become as we are. But you have choice, my friend. God's offer of salvation is extended freely to you, but is not forced on you. You are not here at our command, but at your own desire.


At what point did you personally feel mocked? I am honestly curious.


If you are so overly excited that you have to "wrestle with your pen" in order to write, there is perhaps something more going on with you than we can see through the small windows of our computer screens.


well yeah you can pretty much take for granted that there is much more going on than you can see...but I was being theatrical because i'm into that kind of thing....that line is actually a lyric from a song...I found it humorous.


Nonetheless, many people here are praying for you. Not that we are forcing change upon you, but that we ask an infinite and Holy God to meet you in your place of desperation and have mercy on you.


Do I seem desperate? anyway thanks


The Christians who are answering you are at many different places in their own walk and growth, and will give their answers from that perspective. However we all have something in common. We have learned that life with Jesus is better than life without Him.

ok, i'll try to take tha into consideration in the future