Hell, seperation, no fire?

[wondercoolguy]

I saw a post on a different part of the forum so I thought I might open this up this can of worms LOL.

I don't want this to turn into a who's right or who's wrong thread. I would like to know what kind of hell you believe the unbelievers are going to, try to use biblical references to back it up.

I believe in a literal hell a place of fire and pain. The story of Lazaraus and the Rich man. Not a parable but a foot note in history.

Luk 16:23 "In Hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torment

Luk 16:24 "I am in agony in this flame.'

What say you all

[Rufus_1611]

I saw a post on a different part of the forum so I thought I might open this up this can of worms LOL.

I don't want this to turn into a who's right or who's wrong thread. I would like to know what kind of hell you believe the unbelievers are going to, try to use biblical references to back it up.

I believe in a literal hell a place of fire and pain. The story of Lazaraus and the Rich man. Not a parable but a foot note in history.

Luk 16:23 "In Hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torment

Luk 16:24 "I am in agony in this flame.'

What say you all Hell has real fire.

[livingword26]

Rev 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever

Rev 20:14-15
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[moonglow]

I saw a post on a different part of the forum so I thought I might open this up this can of worms LOL.

I don't want this to turn into a who's right or who's wrong thread. I would like to know what kind of hell you believe the unbelievers are going to, try to use biblical references to back it up.

I believe in a literal hell a place of fire and pain. The story of Lazaraus and the Rich man. Not a parable but a foot note in history.

Luk 16:23 "In Hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torment

Luk 16:24 "I am in agony in this flame.'

What say you all

Don't you think if he really was on fire he would be screaming and not having a conversation? If he could talk, wouldn't he ask for a bucket of water to be thrown on him and not a drop on his tongue? Honestly does that make any sense?

I see no point in God having people forever burning in a literal fire. First they would have to have some miraculous bodies to never burn up...and whats the point of torturing people forever? I don't think its literal at all.

I think the IDEA of it is very literal in its torment! Not physical torture...but torment. We experience torment in losing someone in death...in losing a long held career...in losing a marriage...these are deep emotional and spiritual torments. What is the life Jesus talks about us having? Forever living in these bodies or spiritual life? Its all on a spiritual level!

So no, I don't believe there is a literal fire at all. The kind of fire this is about, is actually even worse.

God bless

[wondercoolguy]

To answer that question you have to look earlier in the story. Lazarus wanted just the crumbs off the rich man's table so in hell the Rich man only asked for a drip of water.

[moonglow]

To answer that question you have to look earlier in the story. Lazarus wanted just the crumbs off the rich man's table so in hell the Rich man only asked for a drip of water.

Ok....I don't see your point though in how that makes the fire literal? :confused

[moonglow]

Here is a link of a post I did on the study on hell one time:http://www.bibleforums.org/forum/showthread.php?t=54771
(http://www.bibleforums.org/forum/showthread.php?t=54771) Hope that helps!

God bless

[TravisJ]

Hell is flames and torment.. and it is separation of god.. But Hell is for the souls... flesh does not burn eternally... it burns for a matter of minutes or hours and it turns to ashes.. but your soul... But Hell i do not know, never been there.. just read about it.. All i know is your image of Hell is not near as bad as what it is... There is Hell Fire, and people are eternally separated from God... its eternal damnation, there are no breaks....

[dispen4ever]

WCG, whatever hell is, we aren't going there.
Eternal separation from God is not my idea
of something to experience.

[wondercoolguy]

WCG, whatever hell is, we aren't going there.

:ppAmen:pp
:monkeyd:

[HisLeast]

I'll let you know when I arrive.

[Buck shot]

Jesus said three times....

...where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.

I take His Word for it.

[BattleStance]

Don't you think if he really was on fire he would be screaming and not having a conversation? If he could talk, wouldn't he ask for a bucket of water to be thrown on him and not a drop on his tongue? Honestly does that make any sense?

I see no point in God having people forever burning in a literal fire. First they would have to have some miraculous bodies to never burn up...and whats the point of torturing people forever? I don't think its literal at all.

I think the IDEA of it is very literal in its torment! Not physical torture...but torment. We experience torment in losing someone in death...in losing a long held career...in losing a marriage...these are deep emotional and spiritual torments. What is the life Jesus talks about us having? Forever living in these bodies or spiritual life? Its all on a spiritual level!

So no, I don't believe there is a literal fire at all. The kind of fire this is about, is actually even worse.

God bless

Luke 16: 19-31

Lazeres and the rich man. Just a sum of it all, they both died and were in hell [ well lazerus and abraham were in a different part but if God gives you revalation on were they exactly were then you will find that out but for now I wont go into that], anyways the rich man asked abraham to send lazerus over to dip his finger in water to cool my tongue because he was in agony.

Another point was since he couldnt water to cool hios tounge he also begged abraham to send lazerus to his fathers house for he had 5 brothers so that lazerus could warn them to not come to where he was [ basically to get it right]. Abraham said if they wont listen to moses or the prophets they will not be convinced.

[Oregongrown]

I saw a post on a different part of the forum so I thought I might open this up this can of worms LOL.

I don't want this to turn into a who's right or who's wrong thread. I would like to know what kind of hell you believe the unbelievers are going to, try to use biblical references to back it up.

I believe in a literal hell a place of fire and pain. The story of Lazaraus and the Rich man. Not a parable but a foot note in history.

Luk 16:23 "In Hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torment

Luk 16:24 "I am in agony in this flame.'

What say you all

I doubt it is biblical, but then again, it could be. The way I imagine/see hell is a place completely void of love, absence of God(Who is Love). No healing, not friendliness, only hate, pain, anger, heartache, crying, everything opposite of heaven. All I have to do is look around the "world" and as bad as it is, imagine if God were not here? Imagine if it was left totally to satans ways.

Like I said, this may or may not be reconcilable to the bible and I don't know(freely admit)about the fire and brimstone type of hell. But hell I see if God is not there.

in Christ, denise

[jamison]

I saw a post on a different part of the forum so I thought I might open this up this can of worms LOL.

I don't want this to turn into a who's right or who's wrong thread. I would like to know what kind of hell you believe the unbelievers are going to, try to use biblical references to back it up.

I believe in a literal hell a place of fire and pain. The story of Lazaraus and the Rich man. Not a parable but a foot note in history.

Luk 16:23 "In Hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torment

Luk 16:24 "I am in agony in this flame.'

What say you all

Hello Wondercoolerguy,

The question here is not only is the fire literal, but is the story literal. You wrote that it is not a parable, but the interpretation and what we learn from it depends on whether or not it is a parable. I for one believe it to be a parable. If it is literal, what do we actually learn from it. The story says nothing about what the rich man did wrong or what he believed. It also says nothing about what Lazarus did right or what he believed. The only thing you can really glean from the story if it is literal, is that rich people go to hell and poor people go to Abraham's bosom. Why do you believe the story to be literal?

In addition to that, "hell" is a bad translation anyway. Most newer translations use the word "hades" as it is the actual Greek word and does not mean "hell". If you look in the OT, you will see that King Hezekiah, Jacob, and other righteous people went to hades (or Hebrew sheol). Hades is the the grave or the realm of the dead, it is not a place of torment and torture and pain.

Now, let me ask a question back to you. Do we as Christains really serve a God who tells us to love our enemies, but He plans on torturing His for all eternity in literal fire????

jamison

[flybaby]

I wish that Hell weren't real fire, but my Bible seems to say that it is. I wish I could believe that Hell were just eternal separation from God. It would make life much easier to reconcile in my mind, but I can't seem to just accept that.

Sad that many people will go to Hell because as Christians we don't sense the urgency in keeping people from real, burning flames forever.

[mcgyver]

I do not believe we are in any way shape or form on safe ground in declaring that the fire(s) of the place which we know as Hell are not real. There are simply too many passages of scripture that do not lend themselves to an allegorical interpretation of Hell-fire.

Although fire is used both symbolically and allegorically in scripture for different purposes (i.e. purification), yet the problem we seem to have with Hell being a place of fire is that of "God Torturing" people for eternity.

We need IMO to be really careful of using this term...confusing God's righteous judgment with torture...for who are we to tell God how to punish iniquity?

In Rev. 19:20 we read (all highlights mine):

"Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."

and Rev 20:10:

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

No one seems to have a problem with the Devil being tormented forever in a lake of fire; but wait: The beast and the false prophet were human beings...

Yet in Rev 20:10 it says: where the beast and the false prophet are they're still there after a 1000 year time lapse...doesn't say "were"...but "are".

and in Rev 22:14-15 (speaking of the great white throne judgment):

"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

and Rev 21:8

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

It is good to see that we view Hell with such revulsion that well meaning Christians would want to change the place to simply a place of eternal separation from God (which it is).

However, (contextually) the scripture as written at the inspiration of the Holy Spirit doesn't lend itself to that interpretation without hermeneutic gymnastics.

[lendtay]

I believe that God will punish certain people. Only God knows for certain who they are.

[moonglow]

I wish that Hell weren't real fire, but my Bible seems to say that it is. I wish I could believe that Hell were just eternal separation from God. It would make life much easier to reconcile in my mind, but I can't seem to just accept that.

Sad that many people will go to Hell because as Christians we don't sense the urgency in keeping people from real, burning flames forever.

The bible also says this about God:

Hebrews 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.

Are we to take it that God is a constant burning flame of fire? Being consumed Himself? No of course not. Just because some of us don't take the fire literally doesn' mean we think hell is less worse...

The bible also says hell is dark but wouldn't flames of fire light it up?

For some of us the idea of God making an nonbeliever stay in a literal body just so they can keep burning..literally..makes no sense and cast God in a light of really wanting to physically hurt those who rejected Him...forever! How can God be love and do this at the same time? Love + burning someone in real fire forever :hmm: I don't know about you but I see a real contradiction here.

mcgyver I do not believe we are in any way shape or form on safe ground in declaring that the fire(s) of the place which we know as Hell are not real. There are simply too many passages of scripture that do not lend themselves to an allegorical interpretation of Hell-fire.

Although fire is used both symbolically and allegorically in scripture for different purposes (i.e. purification), yet the problem we seem to have with Hell being a place of fire is that of "God Torturing" people for eternity.

We need IMO to be really careful of using this term...confusing God's righteous judgment with torture...for who are we to tell God how to punish iniquity?

In Rev. 19:20 we read (all highlights mine):

"Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."

and Rev 20:10:

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

No one seems to have a problem with the Devil being tormented forever in a lake of fire; but wait: The beast and the false prophet were human beings...

Yet in Rev 20:10 it says: where the beast and the false prophet are they're still there after a 1000 year time lapse...doesn't say "were"...but "are".

and in Rev 22:14-15 (speaking of the great white throne judgment):

"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

and Rev 21:8

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

It is good to see that we view Hell with such revulsion that well meaning Christians would want to change the place to simply a place of eternal separation from God (which it is).

However, (contextually) the scripture as written at the inspiration of the Holy Spirit doesn't lend itself to that interpretation without hermeneutic gymnastics.

I think you are assuming too much in thinking the beast and false prophet are people...not all of us do. Second HELL is thrown into the lake of fire!

See this is where things get confusing...hell and the lake of fire are two different things but some see them as the same thing...and others don't. So when one person says hell...they may be thinking lake of fire..while others reading are thinking of hell as not the lake of fire. So it does help so everyone knows the difference..otherwise we get alot of replies that might not make sense.

God bless

[Marc B]

Moonglow has it right. The Beast and False Prophet are born of Satan, not regular joes like you and me born of God. Since the Bible says all our enemies shall be ashes under our feet and the lake of fire is the second death this proves the unrepentant human beings will be consumed as in burned to ashes, gone forever in the lake of fire, not writhing in agony alive forever. That's catholic sunday school tripe.

[mcgyver]

Moonglow has it right. The Beast and False Prophet are born of Satan, not regular joes like you and me born of God. Since the Bible says all our enemies shall be ashes under our feet and the lake of fire is the second death this proves the unrepentant human beings will be consumed as in burned to ashes, gone forever in the lake of fire, not writhing in agony alive forever. That's catholic sunday school tripe.

I would (respectfully) disagree with you and sister Moonglow...but I just don't have the time right now to go into it...Hopefully later...

However..."Catholic Sunday School tripe" it is not...:rolleyes:

I would ask a couple of questions as food for thought:



"Who are we to dictate to God the manner in which He punishes iniquity?"
"Do we dare have the right to accuse God of 'torture', because Hell is odious to us?"
"Is not an eternal separation from God, beauty, everything we have ever loved, without any hope...therefore NOT 'torture' also"?


Just something to think about...

[steelerbabe]

I don't know if hell has fire but I do know it is the one place I don't want to be:eek:

[Marc B]

I would (respectfully) disagree with you and sister Moonglow...but I just don't have the time right now to go into it...Hopefully later...

However..."Catholic Sunday School tripe" it is not...:rolleyes:

I would ask a couple of questions as food for thought:



"Who are we to dictate to God the manner in which He punishes iniquity?"
"Do we dare have the right to accuse God of 'torture', because Hell is odious to us?"
"Is not an eternal separation from God, beauty, everything we have ever loved, without any hope...therefore NOT 'torture' also"?


Just something to think about...

Who's dictating? It's all right there in the Bible.

Malachi 4

Matthew 10:28
John 3:16, everyones favorite ...Whoever believes in Him should not perish...
Romans 6:23 wages of sin is DEATH!!! Death means loss of life, non existence, gone byebye, adios muchachos.
There are many more examples. Satan's fate is not the incorrigibly wicked fate. One of Satan's great deceptions is leading people to believe they will share his fate in the lake of fire. Making God out to be some kind of monster. Where is God's love and mercy for His children? Church dogma, not scripture is the source of this heresy.

[moonglow]

I would (respectfully) disagree with you and sister Moonglow...but I just don't have the time right now to go into it...Hopefully later...

However..."Catholic Sunday School tripe" it is not...:rolleyes:

I would ask a couple of questions as food for thought:



"Who are we to dictate to God the manner in which He punishes iniquity?"
"Do we dare have the right to accuse God of 'torture', because Hell is odious to us?"
"Is not an eternal separation from God, beauty, everything we have ever loved, without any hope...therefore NOT 'torture' also"?


Just something to think about...

I'm not Catholic...so not sure why you said that. I came to these conclusions studying scripture only. Not what any preacher said...all the preachers I ever heard also believe its a real fire.

I am not dictating what God does..nor do I think God tortures anyone because the word isn't even in the bible in relation to hell or the lake of fire....and yes, without God it would be torment!

The example people like to use that God is truly torturing someone in the flames of hell is with the story of the rich man..

Luke 16

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Many take this story literally...though there are some disagreements about whether its a true story or a parable...I don't think it matters. Lets say its literal. Take this as an example:

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

If the rich man was literally on fire...wouldn't he be screaming? How could he possibly be having a conservation? If I was on fire I would be asking for a bucket of water to be dumped on me (if I could even talk, which would be doubtful as the pain would be overwhelming..all consuming so I couldn't even think let alone know others were close by). It makes no sense at all for someone physical burning to be having a sensible conversation or asking for a drop of water...

Lastly the rich man says he is in torment. Not torture. Even has the sense enough to ask for a sign to be given to his brothers!

Yes it would be torment to be without God completely. I always image it being like the dead frozen flowers in the winter time...the sun and warmth withdrawn from them. Dead, yet not completely dead. More like the living dead in a sense. It would be horrible.

I came to these conclusions from the scriptures...the bible gives us a very good idea of the character of God and literally burning people alive forever...does not fit His character at all. I have seen how in the OT He has allowed people due to their own terrible behavior to end up in situations where they did horrific things! But they did this to each other! For all the things God ever directly did to anyone...from making a king behave like a beast of the earth...to turning Lot's wife into a pillar of salt...to sending a tormenting spirit to King Saul...to striking people dead in an instance....He never cause ongoing physical suffering like this. It would be out of character for Him to do this. It reduces the message of the Good News to nothing more then a threat...worship me or else burn forever. I believe it distorts and damages the true gospel message which is one of love, not of threats.

The message from God is we were all dead and burning in our own sins and needed a Savior...in which He sent His Son who paid that price for us. He threw us a rope...a gate, a doorway...out of the hell of our sins..out of death and into life we came! Out of the pit as King David calls it. The unsaved are already in hell and dead and if they continue rejecting Christ, it will become a permanent more terrible thing once judgment day comes. Not believing people don't literally burn does not reduce the urgency of spreading the gospel message one bit! Being without God is like having air withdrawn from us. People...the unsaved have no clue how much He is apart of their life even now...much like the air we breath. And once that is withdrawn they find out very quickly how much apart of their physical life He was. And it will be horrible. The description of fire is to explain how very, very it will be.

God bless

[mcgyver]

Who's dictating? It's all right there in the Bible.

Malachi 4

Matthew 10:28
John 3:16, everyones favorite ...Whoever believes in Him should not perish...
Romans 6:23 wages of sin is DEATH!!! Death means loss of life, non existence, gone byebye, adios muchachos.
There are many more examples. Satan's fate is not the incorrigibly wicked fate. One of Satan's great deceptions is leading people to believe they will share his fate in the lake of fire. Making God out to be some kind of monster. Where is God's love and mercy for His children? Church dogma, not scripture is the source of this heresy.

So am I to understand that you hold to annihilation?

[flybaby]

But God didn't create Hell for people - He created it for Satan and his demons. It is just an after product that it will be used for people who reject God. No one has to go to Hell. God Himself offered up His Son as a sacrifice. I think He is a very loving God to give up so much so that we can be saved from the eternal fire.

I guess you and I will just have to disagree on this one.

[moonglow]

But God didn't create Hell for people - He created it for Satan and his demons. It is just an after product that it will be used for people who reject God. No one has to go to Hell. God Himself offered up His Son as a sacrifice. I think He is a very loving God to give up so much so that we can be saved from the eternal fire.

I guess you and I will just have to disagree on this one.

Yes I understand that...and its fine to disagree. Its not worth causing problems over.

God bless you!

[Jude]

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/moving-hell-fire.gif

Jesus spoke of it many times, or do you think he came to save us from something other than a fiery hell. Hell wasn't created for man, it was created for Satan and his angels. When Jesus made the statement Ye are of your father the devil wouldn't that put you in the same fix. :note:

Jude


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/cents2.gif

[Jude]

I wish that Hell weren't real fire, but my Bible seems to say that it is. I wish I could believe that Hell were just eternal separation from God. It would make life much easier to reconcile in my mind, but I can't seem to just accept that.

Sad that many people will go to Hell because as Christians we don't sense the urgency in keeping people from real, burning flames forever.

This is one Christian that senses the urgency I've seen it.

Jude

[paradiseinn]

IMO."hell" in the bible is decribed as the second death. I believe that if a person is sent to hell, they die again in fire. the only time i've read anything about hell being forever is in revalation when the beast and false prophet exsist forever in hell.

[jamison]

If hell is a place of such unimaginable pain and torture, then why didn't God warn anybody in the Old Testament? God lets man go for 4000+ years and never warns anyone about the pain and torture He has waiting for them? No, no, God isn't going to torture people for all eternity. God is love. He didn't send His Son to die to rescue us from something that He created in the first place. These NT renderings of hell and eternal fire are both mistranslated and misunderstood. For those of you who do believe in an eternity of literal burning fire, why do you think God never warned anyone until the NT (which again is misunderstood)?

jamison

[jamison]

If hell is a place of such unimaginable pain and torture, then why didn't God warn anybody in the Old Testament? God lets man go for 4000+ years and never warns anyone about the pain and torture He has waiting for them? No, no, God isn't going to torture people for all eternity. God is love. He didn't send His Son to die to rescue us from something that He created in the first place. These NT renderings of hell and eternal fire are both mistranslated and misunderstood. For those of you who do believe in an eternity of literal burning fire, why do you think God never warned anyone until the NT (which again is misunderstood)?

jamison

Come guys, I asked this like three days ago and still no responses. Why do you think hell is literal if God never warned anyone in the Old Testament the horror that awaited those that didn't repent?

jamison

[Marc B]

So am I to understand that you hold to annihilation?

Isn't that what death means? If God's enemies are to be turned to ashes and stubble then obviously yes, it means annhilation.

[Lamplighter]

The Greek word used for flame in Luke 16:24 is phlox.
φλόξ Transliteration

phlox

Pronunciation

flo'ks (Key) (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=5395&t=KJV#)

Part of Speech

feminine noun


Root Word (Etymology)

from a primary phlego (to "flash" or "flame")

TDNT Reference

n/a (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=5395&t=KJV#)

Vines

View Entry (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=5395&t=KJV#)


Outline of Biblical Usage
1) a flame


So the rich man was indeed in flames.


The same Greek word is used in Acts 7:30 describing the burning bush of Moses. It could be a metaphor I guess, but it looks more like literal flames to me.

[Marc B]

Come guys, I asked this like three days ago and still no responses. Why do you think hell is literal if God never warned anyone in the Old Testament the horror that awaited those that didn't repent?

jamison

Because the believers in eternal torment by fire which is reserved for Satan and his angels like the Bible says is also the fate of flesh and blood human beings which is misunderstood. The difference is human beings will be consumed by the fire whereas the devil and his angels will not be consumed because humans will be resurrected to flesh. If you read the story of the valley of dry bones it explains how mankind will be resurrected. The scriptures I posted prove unsaved people will not spend eternity in agony.

[jamison]

The Greek word used for flame in Luke 16:24 is phlox.
φλόξ Transliteration

phlox

Pronunciation

flo'ks (Key) (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=5395&t=KJV#)

Part of Speech

feminine noun


Root Word (Etymology)

from a primary phlego (to "flash" or "flame")

TDNT Reference

n/a (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=5395&t=KJV#)

Vines

View Entry (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=5395&t=KJV#)


Outline of Biblical Usage
1) a flame


So the rich man was indeed in flames.


The same Greek word is used in Acts 7:30 describing the burning bush of Moses. It could be a metaphor I guess, but it looks more like literal flames to me.

Hello lamplighter,

The word is also used in Hebrews 1:7 - And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS FLAME OF FIRE ."

This looks pretty symbolic here. He isn't making His ministers into literal flames of literal fire is He?

jamison

[Lamplighter]

Hello lamplighter,

The word is also used in Hebrews 1:7 - And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS FLAME OF FIRE ."

This looks pretty symbolic here. He isn't making His ministers into literal flames of literal fire is He?

jamison


It's also used to describe the eyes of Christ in the book of Revelation. So it could be either/or in all cases, so you can't be dogmatic on either side. It all comes down to personal opinion to which is, and which is not literal flames.

[Marc B]

Very true, thing is it's too easy to inject personal bias and opinion into scripture which usually where contradictions and "mysteries" arise. Because we try to interpret the Bible by reading our beliefs into it instead of letting the Bible interpret itself. When you let the Bible interpret itself by reading it as if it was the first time like a child the mysteries and contradictions disappear. The hell fire issue is a perfect example of this. If you hold to the belief of eternal torment in agony for humanity based on the scripture that describes the lake of fire and Satan's fate then the scriptures describing the fate of the lost as being consumed, reduced to stubble and ashes becomes a contradiction. If you let the Bible interpret itself and stop trying to read more into it and just take what it says at face value that on one hand Satan's fate is eternal torment and lost mankind is the second death like it says in the Bible then there is no more contradiction. The Bible never contradicts itself, only when we introduce bias and opinions it does. In a nutshell if some part seems to be beyond understanding or is contradictory then it's the reader's fault for trying to impose his/her opinions into it. That's why I don't follow mainstream Christianity doctrines blindly and prefer to verify the scriptures they claim to be backing up for myself. If they contradict then they are of no value and are man made. If they agree with scripture and there is no contradictions then it is valid. Matthew 24 says "Take heed that no man deceives you for many will come in my name saying 'I am the Christ' and deceive many." Better to be sure of your facts than to blindly go with the flow without checking things out for yourself first. Hope this helps.

[Lamplighter]

Very true, thing is it's too easy to inject personal bias and opinion into scripture which usually where contradictions and "mysteries" arise. Because we try to interpret the Bible by reading our beliefs into it instead of letting the Bible interpret itself. When you let the Bible interpret itself by reading it as if it was the first time like a child the mysteries and contradictions disappear. The hell fire issue is a perfect example of this. If you hold to the belief of eternal torment in agony for humanity based on the scripture that describes the lake of fire and Satan's fate then the scriptures describing the fate of the lost as being consumed, reduced to stubble and ashes becomes a contradiction. If you let the Bible interpret itself and stop trying to read more into it and just take what it says at face value that on one hand Satan's fate is eternal torment and lost mankind is the second death like it says in the Bible then there is no more contradiction. The Bible never contradicts itself, only when we introduce bias and opinions it does. In a nutshell if some part seems to be beyond understanding or is contradictory then it's the reader's fault for trying to impose his/her opinions into it. That's why I don't follow mainstream Christianity doctrines blindly and prefer to verify the scriptures they claim to be backing up for myself. If they contradict then they are of no value and are man made. If they agree with scripture and there is no contradictions then it is valid. Hope this helps.

True. Either way, the word "eternal" is used, and this is not left up to personal interpretation and opinion, it has no "duel" meanings like flames has.

[Tanya~]

If hell is a place of such unimaginable pain and torture, then why didn't God warn anybody in the Old Testament?

The Old Testament does warn of the eternal judgment, and it is also described as fire:

Dan 12:2
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
NKJV

Isa 66:24

24 "And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
NKJV

Isa 33:10-14

"Now I will rise," says the LORD;
"Now I will be exalted,
Now I will lift Myself up.
11 You shall conceive chaff,
You shall bring forth stubble;
Your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
12 And the people shall be like the burnings of lime;
Like thorns cut up they shall be burned in the fire.
13 Hear, you who are afar off, what I have done;
And you who are near, acknowledge My might."

14 The sinners in Zion are afraid;
Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites:
"Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?
Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"
NKJV

Isa 1:27-31

27 Zion shall be redeemed with justice,
And her penitents with righteousness.
28 The destruction of transgressors and of sinners shall be together,
And those who forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
29 For they shall be ashamed of the terebinth trees
Which you have desired;
And you shall be embarrassed because of the gardens
Which you have chosen.
30 For you shall be as a terebinth whose leaf fades,
And as a garden that has no water.
31 The strong shall be as tinder,
And the work of it as a spark;
Both will burn together,
And no one shall quench them.
NKJV

Ps 21:8-9

8 Your hand will find all Your enemies;
Your right hand will find those who hate You.
9 You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger;
The LORD shall swallow them up in His wrath,
And the fire shall devour them.
NKJV

[Tanya~]

I would like to remind everyone of the rules of the forum, please read them if you are not familiar with them. Because this discussion can go into areas that are controversial and outside the orthodox doctrines of Protestant Christianity, it doesn't fit in the Maturing in Christ forum and is being closed.

Thank you for your understanding!