serious?

[openureyes8]

God condemns mankind because of events he knew would happen (all knowing) in the garden of eden --> inpregnated a virgin with himself/his son 4000 years later in order for him to be sacrificed to redeem mankind. Enough with parabolic interpretations, this is just retarded and makes no sense. God punished us for no good reason without giving mankind a chance to suceed. He could have forgiven us at any point- hes god. How much did jesus suffer anyway- hes god- im sure he was more than capable of avoiding painful stimuli. Also, he knew he would be resurrected and ascend to heaven- doesnt really take any guts if you know your going to eternal blissanyway.
also
-god was really angry about the tower of babel, but really doesnt care about our skyscrapers, or the fact we are exploring outerspace?
-god gets angry at the ancient egyptians for enslaving the jews (which there is no historical proof of anyway), yet turns a blind eye when the nazis kill 6 million?
-Noah and his family were the only good huimans? noah condemned his youngest son to slavery for accidentaly walking in to his tent and seeing his father naked, passed out drunk!

there are so so many reasons to open your eyes and realize that even if some supernatural being is out there, it definetly has nothing to do with the stuff written in the bible.

[amazzin]

Hey! Why are you here?
You're the one whose eyes need to be opened and until there is a glimmer of hope you are here to learn, your posts won't go very far

[openureyes8]

Im open to learn! How can the things I mentioned be explained logically? Educate me.

[amazzin]

Im open to learn! How can the things I mentioned be explained logically? Educate me.

This part of the forum is not the place for this discussion. Please start a thread in Chat to Moderators

I am about to go offline so please be patient

[openureyes8]

I asked 3 specific questions! The other parts of the post were just for you to have a referance as to why these questions interest me.

[apothanein kerdos]

You'd probably get more replies if you posed your questions in a respectful manner. When you approach the issue with a high school maturity, you really can't expect people to go out of their way to respond. Sorry if that comes across as rude mate, but I'm just trying to help you out.

[OldChurchGuy]

God condemns mankind because of events he knew would happen (all knowing) in the garden of eden --> inpregnated a virgin with himself/his son 4000 years later in order for him to be sacrificed to redeem mankind. Enough with parabolic interpretations, this is just retarded and makes no sense. God punished us for no good reason without giving mankind a chance to suceed. He could have forgiven us at any point- hes god. How much did jesus suffer anyway- hes god- im sure he was more than capable of avoiding painful stimuli. Also, he knew he would be resurrected and ascend to heaven- doesnt really take any guts if you know your going to eternal blissanyway.
also
-god was really angry about the tower of babel, but really doesnt care about our skyscrapers, or the fact we are exploring outerspace?
-god gets angry at the ancient egyptians for enslaving the jews (which there is no historical proof of anyway), yet turns a blind eye when the nazis kill 6 million?
-Noah and his family were the only good huimans? noah condemned his youngest son to slavery for accidentaly walking in to his tent and seeing his father naked, passed out drunk!

there are so so many reasons to open your eyes and realize that even if some supernatural being is out there, it definetly has nothing to do with the stuff written in the bible.

It is my understanding the story about the Tower of Babel was to explain the origin of different languages. Not sure how that relates to skyscrapers or space exploration. What am I misunderstanding?

It can be argued God did not turn a blind eye as Nazi Germany was eventually defeated. But, that does not answer the question of why 6 million people were killed due to their faith. Perhaps the fault is with those who allowed Hitler to come to power?

The explanation I have heard regarding Ham is that seeing his father passed out naked wasn't the problem but the fact he did nothing about it. Shem and Japheth on hearing about Noah from Ham made the effort to cover up Noah.

The last paragraph reads:there are so so many reasons to open your eyes and realize that even if some supernatural being is out there, it definetly has nothing to do with the stuff written in the bible.
You may be right. On the other hand, maybe not. I'm unclear on the above paragraph. Since we agree that there is at least the possibility of a supernatural being out there how can it be proven that this supernatural being has nothing to do with the stuff written in the Bible?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

[Duane Morse]

openureyes8, lets start with Noah.

Ge 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
Ge 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
Ge 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
Ge 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

Do you see what Ham did?
He observed his father's nakedness, then went out to tell his brothers.
He seems to be a gossip, and seems to want to embarrass and disgrace his father.

That was wrong.

His brothers, on the other hand, respected their father by covering him without looking upon him.

The former showed a decided lack of judgement, compassion, and moral fortitude.
The latter, didn't.




How about Babel?

Ge 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
Ge 11:2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
Ge 11:3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar.
Ge 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
Ge 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
Ge 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Ge 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Ge 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
Ge 11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

I see nothing there about God being angry.
Nothing at all.
From what I can see, God simply wanted to slow down the progression of technological advancement for a time by confounding their languages.


Maybe I'll get into the other things as well, but not right now.

I just have to ask though.
Where are you getting your opinions from?
Because it does not seem like they are formed from your actual reading of the Bible, or the attempt to understand thereof.

[ilovemetal]

God punished us for no good reason without giving mankind a chance to suceed.

punished? hmmm. i think the word you mean is consequence. the differnce being our actions (sinning) brought on the 'punishment' you speak of. if you are warned not to touch a hot stove but you do, is the person who told you not to touch punishing you, or is the stove? well, it's neither.


well, the rest of your questions have either been answered or disreguarded for obvious reasons. thing is, we've opened our eyes. most of us have tried things that have'nothing to do with the bible' and you know how far that got us....not far.


there are so so many reasons to open your eyes and realize that even if some supernatural being is out there, it definetly has nothing to do with the stuff written in the bible.

curious though, what would you have us read other than the bible....? teaching of buddah, john smith, or c.t. russel? or just give up on 'religon'?

[mcgyver]

Im open to learn! How can the things I mentioned be explained logically? Educate me.

OK, I'll give it a try here... I'll take you at your word and try to sort your "3 questions" (if I can figure them out :lol:)

God condemns mankind because of events he knew would happen (all knowing) in the garden of edenFirst of all, we (mankind) were created for a very special reason: To be in a relationship with God as a child is to his parents. One of love and closeness, security and happiness.

Now you can't have that kind of relationship with a "robot", can you? I sure can't "beat" or "discipline" my son into loving me, and I wouldn't try anyway...

God gave us a "free will" so that we could come to him...His foreknowledge is certainly perfect...but that does not negate what He desired for us...and in Jesus Christ He made a way for that lost relationship to be restored. :)

inpregnated a virgin with himself/his son 4000 years later in order for him to be sacrificed to redeem mankind. Enough with parabolic interpretations, this is just retarded and makes no sense.Without going into theological fine points, let me make this as simple as I can:

Let's say you're busted doing something that will get you a life sentence. You go to court, and you see that the judge is your dad. He says: "Son, you know that you're guilty, and you know I don't have any choice but to pronounce you guilty and give you a life sentence." Bang...down comes the gavel..."GUILTY" he says.

Then he takes off his robes and lays them on his chair, comes down from the bench and stands in front of you and says: "You're my son and I love you, so I'm going to do your sentence for you, I'm going to pay the price for your crime, I'm going to take the penalty"... That my friend, is what God did for you through Jesus Christ!

God punished us for no good reason without giving mankind a chance to suceed. He could have forgiven us at any point- hes god.He's also righteous, Holy, and can't just *wink* at sin. Let's go back to the picture of a judge for a second, and change the situation a little bit:

Someone breaks into your house, robs you blind, assaults your family, and is caught "dead to rights" by the police...When it gets to court, the judge says "There, there...I know you really didn't mean to do it...I know that you're really a good guy...so I'm going to let you go this time"...What kind of judge would he be???? He sure wouldn't be a good judge or a righteous judge, would he?

How much did jesus suffer anyway- hes god- im sure he was more than capable of avoiding painful stimuli. Also, he knew he would be resurrected and ascend to heaven- doesnt really take any guts if you know your going to eternal blissanyway.Ever wonder where the word "excruciating" came from?

The agony of a sufferer on the cross was so awful that they had to come up with a new word to describe it: "Excruciate" which literally means "out of the cross". Jesus felt every bit of pain...and did it so that you could be restored to a right relationship with God!

god was really angry about the tower of babel, but really doesnt care about our skyscrapers, or the fact we are exploring outerspace?We don't build skyscrapers to try and reach or be equal with God now, do we? :rolleyes:

god gets angry at the ancient egyptians for enslaving the jews (which there is no historical proof of anyway), yet turns a blind eye when the nazis kill 6 million?2 things here:

1. Study Egyptology a little bit...pay particular attention to the construction of buildings at Pithom and Raamses... and see what you come up with.

2. Ummm...where is NAZI Germany today, and what happened to Germany after the war?

***edit***

Item 1. above.

Chapter 1 of Exodus tells us that the Hebrews were forced to build the storehouse cities of Pithom and Raamses. It also tells us that the Hebrews built with mortar. Chapter 5 tells us that after angering Pharaoh that the order was given not to provide the Hebrews with any more straw for bricks...they had to gather there own straw, then stubble.

In the late 1890s, Dr. Flinders Petrie found the cities of Pithom and Raamses. He noted the following:

The buildings were constructed using mortar which is found nowhere else in the entirety of Egypt...that the lowest courses of bricks contained straw...that the succeeding courses of bricks contained stubble...and the upper courses of brick contained neither.

[ServantofTruth]

If you have a bible - please read Romans chapter 13: verses 8-10.

May i ask - do you agree with these verses? SofTy. :saint:

[Scruffy Kid]

Greetings, openureyes8!
Welcome to Bibleforums! :hug:
I'm glad that you're here with us!! :pp :pp :pp

I want to reply to some of your specific questions, but first I want to respond to the post as a whole.

A. About your post as a whole
And the assumptions and way of thinking that lie behind it

I am very thankful for your post, and your frank questions; and I am grateful that you have honestly laid your thinking out for us to see. :) I appreciate your sharing, and even your trying to set us straight. I'm not kidding: I do appreciate it, because I think it was well-meant (though stated in kind of rough language, or rudely.)

The overall thought behind your post seems to be the thought that Christians are believing a lot of silly stuff, and if we'd just open our eyes we'd see that this was all nonsense. there are so so many reasons to open your eyes and realize that even if some supernatural being is out there, it definetly has nothing to do with the stuff written in the bible. Your screen name "openureyes", also, seems to suggest that we are just blind to what is obvious. You seem to be assuming that Christians are ignorant, fools, and so on. I'm not offended, I don't mind it, although I think it's kind of funny -- in fact, hilarious!

There is a kind of problem with that assumption. There are many Christians who are intelligent, sophisticated people, educated in literature, science, mathematics, social studies, history, philosophy, and so on. Many Christians were once non-believers, and later decided that Christianity is true. Francis Collins, a very famous biologist who is the head of the human genome project, for instance, was a non-Christian who became a Christian, after he was a distinguished scientist, because he became convinced of the truth of the Christian faith. I myself came from a non-believing family, and became convinced of the truth of Christianity. Thoughout most of my life my closest friends and my colleagues were mostly non-believers. I also have advanced degrees in science and non-science fields. I have lots of friends who teach at well-known universities and are noted researchers, some raised Christian, some not, in all kinds of fields, who are Christians. These are not closed-minded people, but people who like to question and debate important topics from every point of view, and listen to critiques of any kind.

So the assumption that the only problem is that Christians need to wake up and open their eyes seems to me to be risible (that is, pretty funny, laughable). Why not accept the fact that Christianity seems true to lots of intelligent, sophisticated, open-minded people, and then ask -- what is it that they see there? Why is it that they don't see problems with certain things that seem to me absurd?

The intellectual sophistication of Christians is not a new thing, either. From early times, many Christian writers were notable intellects, used to debate with the greatest minds of their own time. The foundations of modern science were laid by earnest Christians who were trying to understand the universe God made more exactly.

If you, if a person, takes any teaching that is deep, sophisticate, and carefully worked out and states it in a casual, trivial manner it can be made to sound (to that person's ears) ridiculous. So modern physics teaches us that there are more than 3 dimensions to space -- but that we can't perceive them all. Modern physics tells us that there are tiny things called electrons which are sometimes like particles, tiny little balls moving around, but sometimes like waves. Pretty silly. If you start out, in examining any deep subject, or any foreign culture, with the idea that everything that at first does not make sense to you should be dismissed, and that the people who think that way are dopes, then you will never learn anything that is new, or that goes beyond your own initial ideas.

Unless you change your stance, your attitude, I don't think you'll be able to hear the answers you get very well. Also, if you are right and we are wrong, unless you treat us seriously, how can we really take what you are saying as carrying much weight?

It's not that I'm offended. Usually, I want to learn from others, even when I think their views are quite incorrect. There's a good deal to learn from most people, if one really tries to understand their ideas, I think, even though the people may be mistaken about a good many things. Rather, I hope that you will be able to encounter Christianity, and people who believe it, in a more open-minded way, yourself.

B. Your specific questions

1. God "condemns mankind" for things he knew would happen when he made us.

Well, most people decide to get married and have children. Having kids is always risky. Kids get themselves into all kinds of problems. This is the more so as they get older. Societies get into wars. With all this pain and trouble, wouldn't it be better to stop having kids, let the human race die out, and be done with all the wrong-doing, and pain, and problems?

I don't think so. Yet when we choose to have kids, and to continue the human race, we know in advance that they are going to get in trouble!! We love our kids, and we (if our hearts are right) love humanity generally. We want people to have a chance to have life, and live it well -- even though we know that often they won't.

Isn't it much similar with God making humanity as a whole? The Bible is telling us, the Christian faith tells us, that God made humanity good, but that we messed things up. In spite of knowing that we would be likely to mess things up, God wanted us to have life, to have the change to live well, and to know the goodness and joy of love and creativity -- and above all to know Him. And (see #3) God took the main burden of fixing up our mistakes and suffering for our troubles on Himself!

God's choice is a loving and courageous one, as it seems to me!!

2. "God condemns mankind ... God punished us for no good reason and without giving mankind a chance to succeeed. He could have forgiven us at any point"

Well, my friend, you see God's treatment of humanity as all punishment and condemnation, and not giving us chances. I think you misunderstand what the bible is saying. I see it just the opposite.

I don't think God "condemns mankind." But He does warn us: if you do these things you will get into terrible trouble and misery.

For example God sees that Cain is very angry, and warns him, telling him that he can overcome his anger, and have a good life. Cain ignores this, and kills his brother Abel. As a result Cain is an outcast, and feels that anyone who finds him will kill him. God is still merciful to Cain, wanting him, even now, to be able to live and make the best of his life.

God is not in the business of condemnation -- it's the devil that likes to do that. God is merciful and kind, forgiving our sins, and leading us into the way of life. God is like a doctor who goes around healing the sick, or like a shepherd who goes out to find sheep that have gotten lost. Jesus said that, and He lived that way. People criticized him for making friends of drunkards, traitors, whores, and all kinds of scuzzy people. Jesus said "it isn't people who are well who need a doctor, but those who are sick. I came to bring people to God who are lost and wandering down really destructive paths. I came to call sinners to a new life turned around and filled with God's goodness -- not to call people who are already perfectly OK." (paraphrase).

But Jesus' remarks here are full of irony. Jesus knows that those who criticize his helping people with obvious sins and problems also have sins and problems of their own -- which they are able to cover up. So Jesus really means, when he says that, that he came to call everyone to a turned-around life, a life where we are sorry for our sins, and live, with joy, in the mercy and grace of God's goodness and forgiveness. Those who think that they are completely OK have a lot of problems too -- but Jesus "can't" call them because -- wanting to maintain the illusion that they are OK -- they won't accept his calling them to repentence, to a changed life.

God is not trying to punish us, but to save us, to rescue us, from the natural (the otherwise inevitable) consequences of our sin. According to what the Bible teaches, our basic trouble is not that we get drunk, or steal, or lie and cheat, or get depressed and angry -- although things like that are problems. The basic trouble is that we have turned away from God. That basic problem, or sin, is the root cause of all our more specific problems, or sins. We are messed-up because we have turned away from God.

Because God is the source of beauty, joy, life, exuberance, happiness, light, truth, health, generosity, goodness, and love, and of existence itself, to turn away from God is -- by definition, not because God gets mad -- to turn away from all that can make us happy, and to what is dark, messed-up, selfish, mean, destructive to others, and self-destructive. To separate ourselves from God is -- by definition, and not because God supposedly wants to punish us -- to find ourselves in misery and evil, to find ourselves in hell.

God warns us that, unless we come back to him for healing and renewal and correction, we are headed for self-destruction, and He always wants to heal us and save us, but we are very stubborn!! He says "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked" and "God is not slow as human beings consider slowness, but is patient, wanting all to come to repentance." God does not want to punish anyone, but wants all of us to come to life and health and peace. But life and joy and goodness come from God, and only when we get reconciled to God will we have life that can last, and not fall apart on us.

However, we are so messed-up by our selfish, sinful deeds and distorted hearts that we can't even come back to God -- who wants to help us and set us free and forgive us -- by our own strength. That is why God takes the burden of our sins on Himself, in Jesus Christ.


3. "How much did Jesus suffer anyway -- He's God. "im sure He was more than capable of avoiding painful stimuli. Also, he know he would be resurrected and ascend to heaven."

This is a misunderstanding. Jesus lived among us as a human being -- he was fully man, fully human, although he also had a divine nature. He genuinely suffered. When he saw people in trouble "his guts were wrenched" (that's a literal translation of the greek verb, sphlanxnidzomai, which is usually translated "he had compassion"). He wept when Lazarus died. He was afraid, terrified, of the ordeal of the crucifixion, and prayed to God, with sweat like drops of blood, to let this cup be one he did not have to drink unless it was absolutely necessary -- but in that case, he submitted to the Father's will.

The fact that Jesus was both God and man is a deep matter, one which we don't and can't fully understand (as we can't fully understand how an electron is both wave and particle). But we can understand some things about it, and these are very important.

Jesus was a human being, just as we are -- but also God. That means that what Jesus did, God did. (I know there are difficulties here: but just flow with the thinking for now, and we can deal with the difficulties later.) God, in His eternal nature, is immortal -- God could not suffer pain or die. Jesus, God the Son, the Eternal Word, took on human nature so that he would be able to suffer and die, and so that he could be with us. (Jesus is called "Emmanuel" which means "God with us.") Why?

Jesus, in his suffering, takes our sin and shame, our guilt and our brokenness, our pain and our messed-up-ness into Himself. The burden of our sins, our brokenness, the death and alienation that is at work within us, is what killed Jesus. The physical cross was real, and terrible, but only the outward manifestation of Jesus receiving into His own person the sins and destructiveness, the brokenness and pain of the whole world.

Just as Jesus received our deadness, our brokennness and sin, into himself, so in this intimate act of love and solidarity with us, he gives us in exchange the inextinguishable life and goodness that is in him. We, when we accept what Jesus has done for us, receive His own life -- his loving heart, his goodness, his courage, his holiness, his relationship with God the Father -- into ourselves. This begins to transform us profoundly, from the very core: it starts to make us into new people, people in whom the very life and image of Christ lives.

This was infinitely costly for him -- and of course he could bear that infinite cost, pain, and distress only because he had the unlimited love and goodness of God, because He was God. But that does not mean it was not unbearably painful and dismaying to Him. No, it was. He sweat blood, he groaned in agony, he received within himself all our human brokenness and badness. But all this He bore so that we could be set free. His steadfastness, his infinite power and integrity and goodness are set free to work in us when we believe in Him.

God Himself bore the burden our our sins, in Jesus Christ, taking the cost of our badness and selfishness and mistakes into Himself because of His great love for us.

In Conclusion

Dear openureyes8, know this:

God loves you with an everlasting love, and wants you to know the love and freedom that He gives us in Jesus Christ.
Open your eyes to His great love for you! I also, and others who post here, write not because we want to win arguments -- nothing could be sillier -- but because we know the peace and joy and goodness of heart that God starts to work in us as we turn to Him in Christ, and we want you, also, to know that joy, and to be rescued from the badness that lurks in all of us.

Of course, there are many unanswered questions, many problem and difficulties. I have only been able to make a start on answering a few of your questions. There are answers to all these things. But if you want God to receive you in His arms, if you want the goodness and love of Christ to live in you, then these small intellectual and personal difficulties can be solved. Turn to him, come to him, the fountain of life and truth!

In friendship,
Scruffy Kid

[openureyes8]

In response to mcgyver's explaination of the judge/father taking the rap for a crime:

This is much different than jesus dying for our sins in the garden of eden. In your scenerio, a person gets caught breaking a law- we can assume that the person understood that it was wrong to break the given law. Additionally when the judge disrobes and becomes the father of the lawbreaker and goes to jail for him, he is taking the same punishment as the son would have been afflicted with. Thus in this story we have a person who understood the laws and the reasons behind them, and a father who took the given punishment for the son.

A more fitting story would be the following (tell me if im wrong):
A father is hanging out with his 2 year old son. The child has some sort of understanding of right and wrong, although he does not really understand the finer details. The father places a candy bar on the floor in front of the son, and tells him to not eat the candy bar or he will be in big trouble. The father leaves the room . Later that day some cousins come to the house, see the candy bar, and ensure the two year old that it would be fine for him to eat the candy bar-he does so. When the father realizes what has happened, he punishes the son severely.
Fourty years pass since this incident and the father has never forgiven the son for eating the candy bar. He decides that there is onlyone way to forgive his son: he artifically inseminates a married virgin, waits for the child to grow up, then sacrifices the child. The old father now smiles, completely having fogiven his son from eating the candy bar all those years ago. For all the generations after this story, the father would not be angry as long as you fully believe in the sacrificed child.

[Scruffy Kid]

Dear openureyes8,
I continue to be glad that you honestly tell us what you are thinking! On the other hand, I continue to think that you'd get more out of the Christian faith, and the Bible, if -- whether you agree or not -- you started from the assumption that there might be something deep and true and powerful there, even if, in the end, you don't buy it altogether A more fitting story would be the following (tell me if im wrong):

A father is hanging out with his 2 year old son. The child has some sort of understanding of right and wrong, although he does not really understand the finer details. The father places a candy bar on the floor in front of the son, and tells him to not eat the candy bar or he will be in big trouble. The father leaves the room . Later that day some cousins come to the house, see the candy bar, and ensure the two year old that it would be fine for him to eat the candy bar-he does so. When the father realizes what has happened, he punishes the son severely. Forty years pass since this incident and the father has never forgiven the son for eating the candy bar. ... Surely, friend, it the story were this silly, no one could believe it had anything to offer. But lots of people do -- lots of noble people, lots of intelligent people, lots of well-balanced and kind people. So mustn't it be the case that there is some other, more sensible, way of understanding the story of the Garden of Eden (which is what I presume you are speaking of in your last post!! Again, lots of people -- in Africa, in China, intellectuals who know history and science as well as simple people -- are coming to faith in Christ as we speak. (There were less than a million Christians in China in 1949 when the communists took over and expelled all missionaries and jailed the Chinese pastors. Yet the gospel spread by word of mouth, under persecution, and there are now over 50 million Christians from all walks of life in China!) Surely these people, from very different cultures, would not find the story of salvation compelling if it were understood in a way which made it as silly as a petulant father punishing a baby for what the baby could hardly help. Surely, the story must be understood in a different way.

The story about humanity rebelling against God's command and eating the apple -- regardless of whether or not it represents (as I think it does) an actual historical incident -- is a profound commentary on the destructive processes that lead human beings to destruction. That is why it resonates with people of different cultures, all around the world, and people in different ages (from the ancient Jews to our modern machine-era civilization), and people with many different kinds of insight into the human condition.

About the Garden of Eden Story

First, the human beings ("Adam and Eve") in the story are not represented as being children, but as adults -- probably young adults -- who are able to order and take care of the Garden and name and classify the animals. They are intelligent adults, not 2 year olds. They live in a paradise, and are responsible caretakers of that paradise, together with their maker, God. It is full of wonderful trees and plants, full of delicious things to do. God has provided for them richly. They are not starving for food, or for joy and delight.

Second, the story is obviously narrated in a way which gives it symbolic meanings which are carefully constructed. (That this is so is not much affected, one way or the other, by whether or not you think -- as I do -- it also represents specific historical events.) Thus, when (in Genesis 2) it says that God made humanity (Adam, man) out of the dust of the ground the Hebrew text is obviously playing with words, not in jest, but to make important points through the symbolism used. "Man" or "humanity" which is formed from the dust of the ground is the Heb. word "Adam"; the "ground" out of which the human beings are formed is the Heb. word "adamah". Thus when the story tells us that humanity is meant to take care of the garden, it is telling us, also, that God expects us to weed, to order, and take care of our own inner life. The plants that spring from the soil of our minds, our hearts, need to be properly cultivated if we are to have our hearts and minds be fruitful, and not a destructive tangle.

Third, in the narrative of the Fall, the human pair mess up in ways that show obvious failure on their part, which they were well able to avoid. (A) God tells them not to eat this fruit. He made them, and the garden, and he has the right to tell them what to do. (B) They are responsible people, able to make responsible choices, as noted above. (C) He tells them that if they eat of this fruit they will die. His instructions to them are not arbitrary, but based upon His knowledge of what is good for them, and what will be very bad for them. He is warning them of the natural, inevitable consequences of eating the fruit. Acting in this way will bring deadly things into their lives. (D) The thing with which the serpent initially tempts the woman is jealousy and distrust of God, and rebellion against Him. "God knows that if you eat of this fruit you will be like him". The Serpent first is suggesting that God does not want them to have good things, and is holding back on them, and then urges them to try to preempt God's place. But of course since God is the source and maker of all things, of our own being, and of all good, rebelling against him can only cut us off from the source of all good!

(E) The idea of rebellion, but even more the idea of trying to redesign what is the basis of our own being, is also conveyed in the image of plucking and eating the "fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." (or "knowledge of good and bad") What is meant by describing the tree and its fruit in this way? Clearly, it's not that the human beings are unable to tell right from wrong, or know that they are doing something beyond the bounds of what is right. For evidently God treats them like responsible adults, involves them in the ordering of the world, the garden, and their own lives, speaking to them about what to do and what not to do, and giving them lots of good choices. The image rather conveys that they are taking into their own hands the power to define what's right and what's wrong -- wrongly usurping, arrogating to themselves, the right to say what is good and what is bad. But that's beyond their competence, and also not theirs to say: in seeking in this way to "take God's place" or "be like God" they are undercutting their ability to understand, to choose rightly, and to keep their own lives in balance. The result -- inevitably, naturally -- is (just as God warned them) disaster and death.

Fourth, the results of their disobedience are displayed in the story first not by God's judgments so much as by the chaos they have sown in their own lives. As soon as they step outside God's standards they find themselves alienated from themselves, one another, nature, and God. Thus the story tells us that at once they were uncomfortable with who they were, and felt naked. Before they could be themselves to themselves, one another and God, without shame. Now they become self-conscious and know also that there is something wrong inside them -- the result of "eating the apple" -- which they need to cover up. So they sow aprons of leaves. They want to hide from one another, and from themselves. Rather than "opening their eyes" in a good way, the eating of the apple has made it hard for them to look honestly at themselves and one another. They also want to hide from God. When God asks Adam what's up, he immediately starts blaming his wife. She also tries to shift the blame. Their whole world, inter-personally, psychologically, has become messed up. That is what God warned them about: the deadly effects on the human personality of rebelling against Him, and seeking to be the source of our own life and rules.

Fifth, the judgement which God pronounces is less God's punishment than his description of the further consequences of their action. God tells Adam "cursed is the ground because of you!" That is, Adam's actions have brought a kind of curse, a kind of wound or pollution, into the ground, just as Cain's actions do later. There are two big problems: (i) the ground now is hard to work, and only by the sweat of his hard labor can Adam get it to yield its good and kindly fruits; and (ii) the ground now has a natural tendency to bring forth nasty stuff, thorns and thistles. But remember that the ground ("adamah") is that out of which humanity ("adam") is formed. Thus it seems to me unlikely that the Genesis passage is trying to explain the origins of agricultural difficulties. Rather, God is saying to humanity, because of what you have done your nature will now not bring forth the good things that I made it to produce easily, but only with a lot of effort and sweat. But, unfortunately, it will without effort produce bad deeds, messed-up thoughts and actions. Alas, the very basis of human nature, created originally in God's image, is now seriously messed-up.

The Usefulness and Significance of the Story

The way that the Bible recounts the Garden of Eden story is, in my opinion, designed to teach us fundamental truths, and give us fundamental understanding into the human condition. (As I said, this is perfectly compatible with believing that it has a historical basis, as I do. Believing it has a historical basis is different from denying that the story makes use of symbolic language: evidently when the human beings hear the sound of God walking in the Garden this is symbolic language for describing their awareness of His presence since God is not a physical being -- in Jewish and Christian thought -- and could not be crunching the gravel on the path as He "walks". You can believe what you like about whether the story is intended as historical: it makes, I think, little difference to the main points.)

It tells us that the destructive things in human nature and society arise from our own bad choices as a human family, and that these involve our trying to exalt ourselves, take God's place, redefine what is right and wrong, and rebel against God. These tendencies are deep within us, and profoundly mess us up. They disorder our hearts, kill what is good in us, and energize what is destructive. They divide us from one another and from God, and make us guilty and ashamed and destructive toward others and toward ourselves. These are things which keep happening in human lives and society, and help warn us about what is the right path and what is the wrong path. But they also give us insight into the destructive, proud, self-centered and rebellious impulses which lead all of us -- even those who are trying to be obedient -- into trouble, and thus point us to our need for God.

Thus, in my opinion, the story is full of profound wisdom, both moral and anthropological, which helps us practically, and helps us understand our hearts and their troubles more deeply as well.

The antidote

A great deal more could be said about the Eden story, and its close relation to the Tower of Babel story (about which you also asked), and to Cain's subsequent mistakes and misfortunes as well. But that would take us far afield, and also I have other things I need to turn to now. But before doing so I want to discuss a passage which talks about the way of life which is opposite to the way of seeking to redefine right and wrong, and exalt ourselves -- the life which is the antidote to the destructiveness of the Fall that Genesis 3 and 4 (and 11) describe.

Paul, in his letter to the Philippians tells us to model our conduct upon Christ Jesus -- to care for one another, not to think more highly of ourselves than we should, and to seek the welfare of others and not just our own welfare. This is crucial and difficult. But Paul sees this as coming from our setting our gaze upon Jesus, and letting His life transform us and live in us. He says: Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
who, though he was by very nature God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
but emptied himself, taking the very nature of a slave, being born in the likeness of men.
And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.
Through all this God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name,
that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Humanity, in the Fall, (prompted by the Devil, who is in rebellion against God in his evil pride, and who hating us wanted to destroy us) wanted to exalt ourselves, to take God's place, to be like God -- and the result of our proud and rebellious attitude is that we radically deformed and messed up human nature, originally created in God's image, making ourselves alienated from God, nature, ourselves, and one another, and apt to bring forth messed-up deeds and thoughts, but able to bring forth what is good only with difficulty. We introduced death and what is deadly into the human heart. Christ is just the opposite. Though He was indeed exalted and equal to God, He gave all that up to be with us in our lowly condition, and being found as a human being also as a human being humbled himself to death, even death by torture. Christ's is the loving humility which overcomes death, and the deadness in our hearts, raising us to the very life of God, the life of selfless love. Through Christ's loving humility, God transforms humanity -- if we will place our lives in Him and let His life live in us! Through his humility, God exalts Christ Jesus, so that in Him we too can really start to be like God: loving, humble, good even in the worst of circumstances, transforming what is bad into what is good. This is the life that glorifies God!

In friendship,
Scruffy Kid

[Sold Out]

I asked 3 specific questions! The other parts of the post were just for you to have a referance as to why these questions interest me.

First of all...be honest. How much of the bible have you read?