Schrodinger's Cat

[oscarkipling]

Do truly random things happen?...from a biblical perspective. Okay...does anything happen that is outside of Gods plan? For instance Can a person just randomly get hit by a car without it being part of God's overall plan? Does absolutely everything happen for a reason, or is there such a thing as chance? Is chance and randomness an illusion? Does free will introduce true randomness? is there reason behind everything?

[Buck shot]

Do truly random things happen?...from a biblical perspective. no Okay...does anything happen that is outside of Gods plan? yes, i believe God has a plan for each of us as He has a plan for this world. If we choose to not follow His plan then it is outside of what He wanted for us. We will lose the blessings that He had for us if we would have did things His way. For instance Can a person just randomly get hit by a car without it being part of God's overall plan? no, it's not random, the choices that we make will put us in the position to get hit by the car. If we are living in God's will He can protect us as He did with Job Does absolutely everything happen for a reason, or is there such a thing as chance? all for a reason Is chance and randomness an illusion? yes Does free will introduce true randomness? no, it allows for us to decide to follow God's plan or do it our way, which will cause us to reap what we sow, either way is there reason behind everything? yes, God allows things to happen to help us grow if we are His. The scriptures tell us that all things work together for the good of those who love God.

Remember these are my opinions...:hmm:

[HisLeast]

Do truly random things happen?...from a biblical perspective. Okay...does anything happen that is outside of Gods plan? For instance Can a person just randomly get hit by a car without it being part of God's overall plan? Does absolutely everything happen for a reason, or is there such a thing as chance? Is chance and randomness an illusion? Does free will introduce true randomness? is there reason behind everything?

Who am I to describe the mind of G-d? All I know is that "things are" and its because of Him. The mechanics of His creation are beyond my ability to test. I would hypothesize that randomness (as we understand it) is simply a means of order and complexity beyond our scope to understand. So did God predetermine the path of the fly buzzing near my office? Possible. Its also possible he "programmed" the mechanics that let the fly take its course.

How do I reconcile that with the idea of an all knowing God? After all, if He just programmed everything and let it loose, how did He know the results?

Well, I further hypothesize that G-d knows every permutation of every eventuality. He knows the end results at every point in time of all possible realities. The free will He's given empowers us to determine some of that reality (with our decisions and actions), but ultimately he knows the end result of everything we could ever do.

[oscarkipling]

no yes, i believe God has a plan for each of us as He has a plan for this world. If we choose to not follow His plan then it is outside of what He wanted for us. We will lose the blessings that He had for us if we would have did things His way. no, it's not random, the choices that we make will put us in the position to get hit by the car. If we are living in God's will He can protect us as He did with Job all for a reason yes no, it allows for us to decide to follow God's plan or do it our way, which will cause us to reap what we sow, either way yes, God allows things to happen to help us grow if we are His. The scriptures tell us that all things work together for the good of those who love God.

Remember these are my opinions...:hmm:

thanks for your answers , I only have one little qualm...and that's with the Idea that people only get hit by cars when they put themselves in such a position to be hit...but okay, that's your opinion so no point in my arguing about it. thanks again

[oscarkipling]

Who am I to describe the mind of G-d? All I know is that "things are" and its because of Him. The mechanics of His creation are beyond my ability to test. I would hypothesize that randomness (as we understand it) is simply a means of order and complexity beyond our scope to understand. So did God predetermine the path of the fly buzzing near my office? Possible. Its also possible he "programmed" the mechanics that let the fly take its course.

How do I reconcile that with the idea of an all knowing God? After all, if He just programmed everything and let it loose, how did He know the results?

Well, I further hypothesize that G-d knows every permutation of every eventuality. He knows the end results at every point in time of all possible realities. The free will He's given us makes empowers us to determine some of that reality (with our decisions and actions), but ultimately he knows the end result of everything we could ever do.

well, that's honest...thanks for your reply

[Duane Morse]

Do truly random things happen?...from a biblical perspective. Okay...does anything happen that is outside of Gods plan? For instance Can a person just randomly get hit by a car without it being part of God's overall plan? Does absolutely everything happen for a reason, or is there such a thing as chance? Is chance and randomness an illusion? Does free will introduce true randomness? is there reason behind everything?

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:




What do you think?

[RoadWarrior]

Do truly random things happen?...from a biblical perspective. Okay...does anything happen that is outside of Gods plan? For instance Can a person just randomly get hit by a car without it being part of God's overall plan? Does absolutely everything happen for a reason, or is there such a thing as chance? Is chance and randomness an illusion? Does free will introduce true randomness? is there reason behind everything?

Good morning Oscar,

As I mentioned in the other post, people are "in different places". This is one of those questions where you might get a variety of answers from Christians on this board. (Too bad you're not a Christian, you would enjoy the debate forums here. ;) ) At one end of the spectrum is Calvinism and at the other end is Arminianism. My view is different from either of those, but there isn't a name for it, as far as I know.

I believe that God established basic laws when He created the universe. One example is gravity. We don't understand gravity exactly, but we can observe it's action and consequences. So if you jump off a roof, you won't float but crash to the ground. You chose to jump off the roof, but God's law provided the consequence - you crashed.

Now comes the interesting part. God is able to intervene in what happens to you as you crash. He is not obligated to do so, but sometimes He does.

From God's perspective, I don't know if anything is truly random. Everything in the universe functions according to the basic laws, as far as I can tell. Scientists are always discovering new things, but when they get it figured out, there is a basic law underneath that governs it. Even if they don't get it figured out, there is still a basic law that governs it!

[oscarkipling]

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:




What do you think?

well, the most honest thing I could say is that I don't know. It seems that there are flaws with both randomness and destiny neither really seem to fit without exception and even an amalgamation of the two don't seem to be able to work biblically speaking (or as close to biblical as I can figure with my limited knowledge)

what do you think?

[oscarkipling]

Good morning Oscar,

As I mentioned in the other post, people are "in different places". This is one of those questions where you might get a variety of answers from Christians on this board. (Too bad you're not a Christian, you would enjoy the debate forums here. ;) ) At one end of the spectrum is Calvinism and at the other end is Arminianism. My view is different from either of those, but there isn't a name for it, as far as I know.

I believe that God established basic laws when He created the universe. One example is gravity. We don't understand gravity exactly, but we can observe it's action and consequences. So if you jump off a roof, you won't float but crash to the ground. You chose to jump off the roof, but God's law provided the consequence - you crashed.

Now comes the interesting part. God is able to intervene in what happens to you as you crash. He is not obligated to do so, but sometimes He does.

From God's perspective, I don't know if anything is truly random. Everything in the universe functions according to the basic laws, as far as I can tell. Scientists are always discovering new things, but when they get it figured out, there is a basic law underneath that governs it. Even if they don't get it figured out, there is still a basic law that governs it!

good morning R-Dub,

Yeah I've thought about it that way too,or at least I think that what we've thought are similar ways of thinking about it....as a sort of information/perception deficiency. Its really not far fetched at all when considered with certain theories and some assumed values...but I guess there isn't much that wouldn't be far fetched with the right kind of manipulation. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think I understand what you are saying and thanks for the reply.

[Duane Morse]

well, the most honest thing I could say is that I don't know. It seems that there are flaws with both randomness and destiny neither really seem to fit without exception and even an amalgamation of the two don't seem to be able to work biblically speaking (or as close to biblical as I can figure with my limited knowledge)

what do you think?
I think that there is more than one level to 'reality', which makes both randomness and destiny valid in their own ways and in their own times.

Ec 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ec 1:10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
Ec 1:11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

Kinda like the Oracle telling Neo that he already made the choice, and now he just needs to understand why.

[CoffeeCat]

Do truly random things happen?...from a biblical perspective. Okay...does anything happen that is outside of Gods plan? For instance Can a person just randomly get hit by a car without it being part of God's overall plan? Does absolutely everything happen for a reason, or is there such a thing as chance? Is chance and randomness an illusion? Does free will introduce true randomness? is there reason behind everything?

Thanks for the questions, Oscar. :)

1. From a Biblical perspective, I don't believe things that are truly random (ie, unknown to God, not allowed by God) ever happen, no.

2. Do things happen that are out of God's plan? Yes, and no. God's plan (we'd call it His will) is for us to live the life he created us for: a life spent following Him, serving Him, helping others and showing our joy to them. Do things happen outside of that plan? Every day. Sometimes we make decisions that cause bad things to happen; sometimes we're minding our own business but others make bad decisions that cause things to happen. Sometimes, it isn't us humans at ALL -- anyone who's survived a horrible storm that caused bad damage can tell you that.

In your example of getting hit by a car, I have to say that while God ALLOWS it to happen, there's nothing in the Bible I've ever read that even suggests God wants us to suffer violent pain, ordinarily (what I'm trying to say is that God is not malicious). On the other hand, God brings meaning and goodness even into the worst situations, and He can turn around one of OUR bad choices for HIS glory. Spiritually speaking, the things we go through also sometimes make us closer to God, and make us better able to help others through similar things. God's plans for us seem, to me, to be flexible ones -- we change our minds hundreds of times, we change our activities just as often.... conceivably, from birth to death, there are thousands of ways God can work in our lives to bring us to Him, because that's His ULTIMATE PLAN. That's how I understand it.

I can't presume to know the mind of God on this, though, so take what I say here as opinion based on the bit of life experience I've had so far. Like Roadwarrior, I don't fall into the Calvinism or the Arminianism camps.


3. I don't believe chance exists. Everything happens for a reason. We don't always see the reason at first glance. Sometimes, it takes years... and so much of our life ties together that we might look back at a situation MUCH later, and realize how it shaped us to be the person we are now. I'll give you an example. It wasn't by chance that my parents divorced in the late 1990's -- It seemed random and upsetting to me at the time, pure bad luck.... but both parents are at peace now, one is happily remarried, and as a student teacher this year, I've had one heck of a lot of personal training on how best to help kids in the school system who are going through a parent's divorce. I can reach out to them and help them in a way that wouldn't be possible otherwise. God used something bad for good.

4. I believe chance and randomness is an illusion, yes.

5. Free will doesn't seem to introduce randomness. It introduces to us the chance to follow God, and to choose wisely in all we do. Free will is a gift that carries a LOT of responsibility. We can value every choice we make and make it carefully, or we can squander every opportunity we have to choose. It's a double-edged sword.

6. Is there reason behind everything? Yes, Reason in general. We're reasonable, rational beings, and God's a reasonable God. :) If you're asking "is there A reason (ie, ONE reason alone for everything) then that's a different question.




The questions you asked here are good ones. When others have answered, would you mind answering a question? How have our answers helped, or hindered, your understanding of God?

Thanks. Take care!

[Buck shot]

well, the most honest thing I could say is that I don't know. It seems that there are flaws with both randomness and destiny neither really seem to fit without exception and even an amalgamation of the two don't seem to be able to work biblically speaking (or as close to biblical as I can figure with my limited knowledge)

what do you think?

Now that's a word that's not commonly used around here :). It would be hard to "merge" randomness and destiny. In my opinion, God has a plan for us and even a number of days that He says in His word that we cannot go past. What we do in these days and months He allows us to decide. We must know that there are consequences to our choices. If we serve Him then we can fulfill all that He has for us or we can serve ourselves and miss the boat...

Job 14:5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;

[Tanya~]

Hi Oscar,

When it comes to life and death I think we can say with certainty that randomness isn't in the picture.

Matt 10:29-31
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.
NKJV

I do think there are random things that happen, but nobody is born randomly, and nobody dies randomly, and the circumstances that shape our lives are not random. Even the time and place in history of your existence is planned by God.

Acts 17
26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.
NKJV

[markinro]

Do truly random things happen?...from a biblical perspective. Okay...does anything happen that is outside of Gods plan? For instance Can a person just randomly get hit by a car without it being part of God's overall plan? Does absolutely everything happen for a reason, or is there such a thing as chance? Is chance and randomness an illusion? Does free will introduce true randomness? is there reason behind everything?

If you're asking "Is there anything which happens God doesn't know about ?". Clearly, the answer is no. God is omnipresent, all-knowing. To our paltry minds, we can possibly comprehend this idea. Does this mean its not possible - of course not. There are likely - to quote Mr Sagan - billions and billions of things in the natural world we cannot comprehend - yet we see the physical evidence every day.

The scriptures are clear - He has set before us life and death - or think of it as Door #1 and Door #2. Yes, we exercise our free-will - a gift from God - but since He is timeless, eternal - it wouldn't be possible for Him not to know. In a general sense, there are rewards for our actions. All of us will stand before Him on payday.

The god of random occurences heads up the church of evolution. That is completely founded on the idea of random interactions. That's not a god I would want to be in control - or more accurately, not in control.

[oscarkipling]

I think that there is more than one level to 'reality', which makes both randomness and destiny valid in their own ways and in their own times.

Ec 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ec 1:10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
Ec 1:11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

Kinda like the Oracle telling Neo that he already made the choice, and now he just needs to understand why.

alright, thanks

[oscarkipling]

Thanks for the questions, Oscar. :)

1. From a Biblical perspective, I don't believe things that are truly random (ie, unknown to God, not allowed by God) ever happen, no.

2. Do things happen that are out of God's plan? Yes, and no. God's plan (we'd call it His will) is for us to live the life he created us for: a life spent following Him, serving Him, helping others and showing our joy to them. Do things happen outside of that plan? Every day. Sometimes we make decisions that cause bad things to happen; sometimes we're minding our own business but others make bad decisions that cause things to happen. Sometimes, it isn't us humans at ALL -- anyone who's survived a horrible storm that caused bad damage can tell you that.

In your example of getting hit by a car, I have to say that while God ALLOWS it to happen, there's nothing in the Bible I've ever read that even suggests God wants us to suffer violent pain, ordinarily (what I'm trying to say is that God is not malicious). On the other hand, God brings meaning and goodness even into the worst situations, and He can turn around one of OUR bad choices for HIS glory. Spiritually speaking, the things we go through also sometimes make us closer to God, and make us better able to help others through similar things. God's plans for us seem, to me, to be flexible ones -- we change our minds hundreds of times, we change our activities just as often.... conceivably, from birth to death, there are thousands of ways God can work in our lives to bring us to Him, because that's His ULTIMATE PLAN. That's how I understand it.

I can't presume to know the mind of God on this, though, so take what I say here as opinion based on the bit of life experience I've had so far. Like Roadwarrior, I don't fall into the Calvinism or the Arminianism camps.


3. I don't believe chance exists. Everything happens for a reason. We don't always see the reason at first glance. Sometimes, it takes years... and so much of our life ties together that we might look back at a situation MUCH later, and realize how it shaped us to be the person we are now. I'll give you an example. It wasn't by chance that my parents divorced in the late 1990's -- It seemed random and upsetting to me at the time, pure bad luck.... but both parents are at peace now, one is happily remarried, and as a student teacher this year, I've had one heck of a lot of personal training on how best to help kids in the school system who are going through a parent's divorce. I can reach out to them and help them in a way that wouldn't be possible otherwise. God used something bad for good.

4. I believe chance and randomness is an illusion, yes.

5. Free will doesn't seem to introduce randomness. It introduces to us the chance to follow God, and to choose wisely in all we do. Free will is a gift that carries a LOT of responsibility. We can value every choice we make and make it carefully, or we can squander every opportunity we have to choose. It's a double-edged sword.

6. Is there reason behind everything? Yes, Reason in general. We're reasonable, rational beings, and God's a reasonable God. :) If you're asking "is there A reason (ie, ONE reason alone for everything) then that's a different question.




The questions you asked here are good ones. When others have answered, would you mind answering a question? How have our answers helped, or hindered, your understanding of God?

Thanks. Take care!

Thanks for you reply CC..and to answer your questions I can't honestly say that there has been anything new added here for me to consider, so it hasn't really helped or hindered except possibly helping me to understand that it might not be a question that has much if any impact on christian salvation.

[oscarkipling]

Now that's a word that's not commonly used around here :). It would be hard to "merge" randomness and destiny. In my opinion, God has a plan for us and even a number of days that He says in His word that we cannot go past. What we do in these days and months He allows us to decide. We must know that there are consequences to our choices. If we serve Him then we can fulfill all that He has for us or we can serve ourselves and miss the boat...

Job 14:5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;



Thanks Buck. Do you think that there is also a left wall, I mean do you think that we also have a minimum amount of days as well?

[oscarkipling]

Hi Oscar,

When it comes to life and death I think we can say with certainty that randomness isn't in the picture.
Matt 10:29-31
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.
NKJV
I do think there are random things that happen, but nobody is born randomly, and nobody dies randomly, and the circumstances that shape our lives are not random. Even the time and place in history of your existence is planned by God.
Acts 17
26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.
NKJV



that's an interesting view you have there, could you maybe detail what led you to this belief?

thanks for the post

[ServantofTruth]

If perhaps we turn from our lives and look at the life of Jesus Christ, there may be something helpful to think about. Do you believe that the Jews and the Roman authorities were in control, when they arrested and crucified Jesus? Did they pick the time and place? Did they actually stop a beautiful ministry, that if it had continued for many more years would have been what God/ Jesus wanted?

For example at the end of John's gospel chapter 8 - the people pick up stones to kill him. In chapter 10 of John's gospel: verse 32 - the Jewish leaders pick up stones again to kill him. We hear also of Jesus being dragged out of town and they were going to throw him off a cliff.

My point is Jesus was always in control of his life. When these very threatening things happened we read 'his time had not yet come.' But when Jesus 'turns' towards Jerusalem for the last time - he is in control of his own destiny. He sends Judas to betray him. He stops Peter defending him with a sword. He doesn't speak when on trial at times. Just an area to consider.

I appologise i'm off to bible study group and am picking up a couple of people on the way. God bless, SofTy. :pray:

[oscarkipling]

If perhaps we turn from our lives and look at the life of Jesus Christ, there may be something helpful to think about. Do you believe that the Jews and the Roman authorities were in control, when they arrested and crucified Jesus? Did they pick the time and place? Did they actually stop a beautiful ministry, that if it had continued for many more years would have been what God/ Jesus wanted?

For example at the end of John's gospel chapter 8 - the people pick up stones to kill him. In chapter 10 of John's gospel: verse 32 - the Jewish leaders pick up stones again to kill him. We hear also of Jesus being dragged out of town and they were going to throw him off a cliff.

My point is Jesus was always in control of his life. When these very threatening things happened we read 'his time had not yet come.' But when Jesus 'turns' towards Jerusalem for the last time - he is in control of his own destiny. He sends Judas to betray him. He stops Peter defending him with a sword. He doesn't speak when on trial at times. Just an area to consider.

I apologize i'm off to bible study group and am picking up a couple of people on the way. God bless, SofTy. :pray:

Okay, thanks for your post

[Buck shot]

Thanks Buck. Do you think that there is also a left wall, I mean do you think that we also have a minimum amount of days as well?

No, i think we are able to stop our life if we so choose as long as God does not step in. I think if He has something that you are supposed to do, you will eventually.

To me, i have seen this by how many suicides were unsuccessful and then the person ends up serving God (i was a volunteer EMT for many years). The down side is they have to live with the scars (both physical and emotional) for their actions.

Remember this is just my personal opinion. I cannot back this up scripturally. :hmm:

[oscarkipling]

No, i think we are able to stop our life if we so choose as long as God does not step in. I think if He has something that you are supposed to do, you will eventually.

To me, i have seen this by how many suicides were unsuccessful and then the person ends up serving God (i was a volunteer EMT for many years). The down side is they have to live with the scars (both physical and emotional) for their actions.

Remember this is just my personal opinion. I cannot back this up scripturally. :hmm:

Do you think that God has a job for us all?

[Tanya~]

that's an interesting view you have there, could you maybe detail what led you to this belief?

thanks for the post

It's the quoted Scriptures that led me to the belief. :) The question you asked is something we cannot know by test or experience or intuition. We can only know the answer by revelation, and those Scriptures reveal to us that life and death is not random.

[oscarkipling]

It's the quoted Scriptures that led me to the belief. :) The question you asked is something we cannot know by test or experience or intuition. We can only know the answer by revelation, and those Scriptures reveal to us that life and death is not random.

Okay yeah I honestly didn't expect any bullet proof answers here anyway, I was just curious as to how you explained it to yourself. The part of your post that piqued my interest was the part about you believing that some things were random (maybe the inconsequential things). that's what I specifically wondered about...anyway thanks.

[Tanya~]

The part of your post that piqued my interest was the part about you believing that some things were random (maybe the inconsequential things).

Yes, I believe some things are random. For example, if I were to lay a set of keys onto the table, the arrangement of the keys when they come to rest would be random.

[Buck shot]

Do you think that God has a job for us all?

that's a big ol' can of worms there! :lol: Good thing i don't scare easy...;)


I think God can and will us any of us. But it seems He chose some for specific tasks. Also when folks get saved He equips us with talents to use for His service, so He must have a job in mind that He is equiping each of us for.

I know that Jesus died for each of us and God has blessing waiting for those who will serve Him.

[Gillian]

Do truly random things happen?...from a biblical perspective. Okay...does anything happen that is outside of Gods plan? For instance Can a person just randomly get hit by a car without it being part of God's overall plan? Does absolutely everything happen for a reason, or is there such a thing as chance? Is chance and randomness an illusion? Does free will introduce true randomness? is there reason behind everything?


yes happen outside God plans.

not everything is a reason. some just not some is.

Gillian

[oscarkipling]

Weird somehow I missed this post...

If you're asking "Is there anything which happens God doesn't know about ?". Clearly, the answer is no. God is omnipresent, all-knowing. To our paltry minds, we can possibly comprehend this idea. Does this mean its not possible - of course not. There are likely - to quote Mr Sagan - billions and billions of things in the natural world we cannot comprehend - yet we see the physical evidence every day.


hmm I may be a little confused....are you saying that it is not impossible for God to be Omni(adjective) just because people's minds cant fully comprehend it?...if that's what you were saying then that's fine...I wasnt arguing that....actually I wasnt arguing anything....but anyway I guess what I meant by random was devoid of meaning or purpose
..at least in this instance.


The scriptures are clear - He has set before us life and death - or think of it as Door #1 and Door #2. Yes, we exercise our free-will - a gift from God - but since He is timeless, eternal - it wouldn't be possible for Him not to know. In a general sense, there are rewards for our actions. All of us will stand before Him on payday.


well, alright


The god of random occurrences heads up the church of evolution. That is completely founded on the idea of random interactions. That's not a god I would want to be in control - or more accurately, not in control.

If by random you mean meaningless, then sure, I can see that...but if you mean random as in chaotic, then I'd have to disagree....But you are talking about the church of evolution, and I have no idea what they believe so I'd be best served in leaving that alone....I'll take it one church at a time sweet Jesus :D

thanks for your post

[oscarkipling]

Yes, I believe some things are random. For example, if I were to lay a set of keys onto the table, the arrangement of the keys when they come to rest would be random.

yes, why do you believe that though...I read the verses you showed me, but I cant really see how you reached that conclusion.

[oscarkipling]

that's a big ol' can of worms there! :lol: Good thing i don't scare easy...;)

I think God can and will us any of us. But it seems He chose some for specific tasks. Also when folks get saved He equips us with talents to use for His service, so He must have a job in mind that He is equiping each of us for.

I know that Jesus died for each of us and God has blessing waiting for those who will serve Him.


hmm, I dont quite understand if that means yes or no.

[oscarkipling]

yes happen outside God plans.

not everything is a reason. some just not some is.

Gillian

Thank you for your contribution Gillian.:saint:

[Tanya~]

yes, why do you believe that though...I read the verses you showed me, but I cant really see how you reached that conclusion.

The Scriptures show that our lives aren't random. That's what I derive from the Scriptures. As to the randomness of how a set of keys is arranged when one sets them down, the Scripture doesn't speak to that, and I believe it is purely random in that God isn't involved in it other than the fact that He created the natural laws of physics that would naturally bring the keys to rest in a particular formation. In other words, He isn't watching over the keys like He is watching over your life.

[oscarkipling]

The Scriptures show that our lives aren't random. That's what I derive from the Scriptures. As to the randomness of how a set of keys is arranged when one sets them down, the Scripture doesn't speak to that, and I believe it is purely random in that God isn't involved in it other than the fact that He created the natural laws of physics that would naturally bring the keys to rest in a particular formation. In other words, He isn't watching over the keys like He is watching over your life.

It seems like it would be effortless to take all the keys in all the world and watch them all in a perfect cold light, for God. I only say this because peoples lives are often changed forever for better or worse due to seemingly inconsequential random actualities. I have a hard time seeing why God would leave out these things...unless he only affects the nominally random when it is of consequence....but is the universe really capable disassociated actions...sure they might fall into background noise category...but still....i guess all i'm saying is...why do you believe that the arrangement of your keys aren't important to God...or his plans.

[Gillian]

It seems like it would be effortless to take all the keys in all the world and watch them all in a perfect cold light, for God. I only say this because peoples lives are often changed forever for better or worse due to seemingly inconsequential random actualities. I have a hard time seeing why God would leave out these things...unless he only affects the nominally random when it is of consequence....but is the universe really capable disassociated actions...sure they might fall into background noise category...but still....i guess all i'm saying is...why do you believe that the arrangement of your keys aren't important to God...or his plans.

beacause they re keys. I understand what u getting at. yeah could be there are time reasons behind to place key to have someone place it. maybe under the cirsumtances in dangerous time. it importment the key laid at angle that not noticed by bad guys. who knows u can image all sorts but not every happenings is for a reason some objects propley had reasons behind it. im sure. raven is used to bring Elish food. winds storms sometime used.

im thinking this way. chances acts can turn into reason and sometime acts never are chances acts pre derminted.
understand what im meaning?

[oscarkipling]

beacause they re keys. I understand what u getting at. yeah could be there are time reasons behind to place key to have someone place it. maybe under the cirsumtances in dangerous time. it importment the key laid at angle that not noticed by bad guys. who knows u can image all sorts but not every happenings is for a reason some objects propley had reasons behind it. im sure. raven is used to bring Elish food. winds storms sometime used.

im thinking this way. chances acts can turn into reason and sometime acts never are chances acts pre derminted.
understand what im meaning?

yes, I think I understand what you are saying, but I don't understand why you believe that this scenario is necessary or likely.

[Gillian]

yes, I think I understand what you are saying, but I don't understand why you believe that this scenario is necessary or likely.

is necessary ? coming from a christian viewpoint on this topic.

it likey because it did happen direactly by God ever sometime without God people by luck chances acts see a object that could see their lives in their captures. maybe the men that dressed like french doing spy stuff in WWI propley faced that types of things few times, coindences and sometime may to do with God and just lucky that capturer happen not to notice whatever objects anything that could end spy lifes.

when u say u dont understand why scenario is necessary or likey
im not sure where u coming from on that?

Gillian

[Tanya~]

It seems like it would be effortless to take all the keys in all the world and watch them all in a perfect cold light, for God.

Everything God does has purpose though. I think because this discussion is getting so out there in terms of speculation, regarding things we don't have revelation about, it isn't helpful to continue to try to figure it out. We're not going to be able to do that. It's just guessing.

I only say this because peoples lives are often changed forever for better or worse due to seemingly inconsequential random actualities.

Those things aren't actually random then. In the book of 2 Chronicles, the account of the death of Israel's king Ahab is recorded. The prophet had pronounced the LORD's judgment against him, but he rejected the word of the LORD and went to battle against Syria along with the king of Judah, Jehoshaphat. (They had become allies.) Ahab disguised himself but told Jehoshaphat to wear his royal apparel. This is what happened next:

2 Chron 18:30-34
30 Now the king of Syria had commanded the captains of the chariots who were with him, saying, "Fight with no one small or great, but only with the king of Israel."

31 So it was, when the captains of the chariots saw Jehoshaphat, that they said, "It is the king of Israel!" Therefore they surrounded him to attack; but Jehoshaphat cried out, and the LORD helped him, and God diverted them from him. 32 For so it was, when the captains of the chariots saw that it was not the king of Israel, that they turned back from pursuing him. 33 Now a certain man drew a bow at random, and struck the king of Israel between the joints of his armor. So he said to the driver of his chariot, "Turn around and take me out of the battle, for I am wounded." 34 The battle increased that day, and the king of Israel propped himself up in his chariot facing the Syrians until evening; and about the time of sunset he died.
NKJV

The soldier who killed Ahab drew at random, that is, without purpose or intent on his part. But it was intentional from God's part so it was not really a random event.

I have a hard time seeing why God would leave out these things...unless he only affects the nominally random when it is of consequence....but is the universe really capable disassociated actions...sure they might fall into background noise category...but still....i guess all i'm saying is...why do you believe that the arrangement of your keys aren't important to God...or his plans.

They have no impact on His plans. The arrangement of laundry in the basket ready to be washed, the configuration of bird doo-doo at the bottom of the cage... these things are random and are of no consequence. A stone which falls from a truck and hits a speeding vehicle, smashing through the windshield and killing the passenger is not random. It might seem random to us just as the soldier who killed Ahab seemingly shot at random. But God is involved in these things.

[oscarkipling]

Everything God does has purpose though. I think because this discussion is getting so out there in terms of speculation, regarding things we don't have revelation about, it isn't helpful to continue to try to figure it out. We're not going to be able to do that. It's just guessing.



Those things aren't actually random then. In the book of 2 Chronicles, the account of the death of Israel's king Ahab is recorded. The prophet had pronounced the LORD's judgment against him, but he rejected the word of the LORD and went to battle against Syria along with the king of Judah, Jehoshaphat. (They had become allies.) Ahab disguised himself but told Jehoshaphat to wear his royal apparel. This is what happened next:
2 Chron 18:30-34
30 Now the king of Syria had commanded the captains of the chariots who were with him, saying, "Fight with no one small or great, but only with the king of Israel."

31 So it was, when the captains of the chariots saw Jehoshaphat, that they said, "It is the king of Israel!" Therefore they surrounded him to attack; but Jehoshaphat cried out, and the LORD helped him, and God diverted them from him. 32 For so it was, when the captains of the chariots saw that it was not the king of Israel, that they turned back from pursuing him. 33 Now a certain man drew a bow at random, and struck the king of Israel between the joints of his armor. So he said to the driver of his chariot, "Turn around and take me out of the battle, for I am wounded." 34 The battle increased that day, and the king of Israel propped himself up in his chariot facing the Syrians until evening; and about the time of sunset he died.
NKJV
The soldier who killed Ahab drew at random, that is, without purpose or intent on his part. But it was intentional from God's part so it was not really a random event.



They have no impact on His plans. The arrangement of laundry in the basket ready to be washed, the configuration of bird doo-doo at the bottom of the cage... these things are random and are of no consequence. A stone which falls from a truck and hits a speeding vehicle, smashing through the windshield and killing the passenger is not random. It might seem random to us just as the soldier who killed Ahab seemingly shot at random. But God is involved in these things.

okay, I still don't understand why you believe what you believe about randomness but I guess i'll leave it alone. Thanks for your reply

[oscarkipling]

is necessary ? coming from a christian viewpoint on this topic.

it likey because it did happen direactly by God ever sometime without God people by luck chances acts see a object that could see their lives in their captures. maybe the men that dressed like french doing spy stuff in WWI propley faced that types of things few times, coindences and sometime may to do with God and just lucky that capturer happen not to notice whatever objects anything that could end spy lifes.

when u say u dont understand why scenario is necessary or likey
im not sure where u coming from on that?

Gillian

well, I still don't see why you believe what you believe, but i'll leave it alone