Lessons from the Woman at the Well...

[Lady Ashanti]

Hi, All...

It interested me to see a section on the woman at the well, as well as, a thread on her since I just wrote a book on her.

I thought that maybe we could discuss some of the "lessons" in the book on here since there seems to be a misconception regarding her.

I thought I would post the introduction with the table of contents, and maybe you-all could choose a chapter, and we could discuss some of it.

Just a thought...:hug:

[Lady Ashanti]

I am writing this book under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, for the edification of the body of Christ, within the Kingdom of God.

I am not trying to target everyone, [everyone cannot receive what I will say], so I write this book to a specific group. I especially want to minister to those who have been divorced, and/or abused, [although, I am sure that the lessons in this book will be a blessing to all my single Christian sisters in the Body of Christ no matter how, or why they are single].

I have, also, written a “letter to my brothers”, [can you handle it?].

It is my prayer that all who read this book, especially those of the Body of Christ, will be edified by the reading of these pages.

I reference the “woman at the well”…John 4: 4-29, because my sister experienced many “issues” that we, sisters, face today:

· She was a double minority in society…verse 9, and 27.
· She was rejected by, and isolated from her own gender…verse 6-7, [generally women came in groups to draw water].
· She was divorced multiple times…verse 18.
· She was more than likely abused by her previous husbands…verse 18, and Matthew 19: 8.
· She stood accused, and guilty among her own people, [her race, her gender, and her marital status all said she wasn’t worthy, wasn‘t acceptable].
· She was “steeped” in religiosity…verse 20.

And she probably suffered some things that are not mentioned in scripture, and although the Lord forgave her at His coming to her…verse 14, and 26, people still assume, and accuse her in their preaching today. So, please allow her to help me in dealing with a few things in this book.

Here are the “secrets” of her lessons:

Lesson One – She knew the true purpose of marriage.
Lesson Two – Because she knew the purpose, she longed for it.
Lesson Three – She didn’t know her value.
Lesson Four – She had no female support system.
Lesson Five – She probably had much passion, spiritually and sexually.
Lesson Six – She desired her “soul mate”.
Lesson Seven – She was lacking something within herself.
Lesson Eight – Although she knew the purpose, she didn’t know the requirements.
Lesson Nine – She probably wasn’t properly prepared for marriage while she was single.
Lesson Ten – She was divorced multiple times.
Lesson Eleven – She had been chosen by men who would not, [or could not], nurture, cherish, value, and love her.
Lesson Twelve – She had chosen men who did not know their own purpose, or hers.

Also, in this book, I would like to share my heart with you, the truths God has revealed to me and placed there from His Word, by His Spirit, and the challenges He allowed me to go through for your sake, and mine. I have paid a great price for the “lessons” in this book, paid it so some of you won’t have to.

In the beginning, I would ask the Lord, “why am I reaping this when I didn’t sow it“? The Lord replied, “An enemy has done this…Matthew 13: 28”, and then He said, “Just as I was wounded for you, bruised for you, Isaiah 53:5, there will be times when you will have to do the same for others”. I don’t mind if in writing this book it will keep others from going through what I have gone through because Lord knows I bear the marks in my own body, and life…I Corinthians 7: 34.

Overall, I have learned to thank the Lord for all the things I have been through because nothing teaches like pain, and if it wasn't for these things, there would be no book, "and we know that ALL things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are THE called according to His purpose…Romans 8:28). "HALLELUJAH, ANYHOW!”

Now, I pray that you will allow me to minister to you from the Word of God, coupled with my life experiences. I also pray you will read the scriptural references in these chapters and receive insight into this "thing" from God, given to me to share with you. (All scripture references are taken from the New King James Version of the Bible, unless otherwise stated).

Proverbs 4:7:
“Wisdom is the principle thing, therefore get wisdom but in all thy getting, get UNDERSTANDING".

Not AN understanding, which could be different things to different people, but understanding-one overall truth, which we can stand under.

Some of the things written in this book will shake your theology, but if you will search the scriptures you will see that what I have written is accurate. I want to be real with you and that may seem a bit harsh at times, but in all of this, we will find truth.

Also, since I am a woman, I will be writing from a woman’s perspective in the Holy Ghost, no offense intended.

[Momof5]

Ladies, I think this will be a very productive discussion. Let's study the passage in John 4 and join in.

Lady Ashanti, the floor is yours.

[Lady Ashanti]

Ladies, I think this will be a very productive discussion. Let's study the passage in John 4 and join in.

Lady Ashanti, the floor is yours.

Thank you so much!!!:pp

Ladies, where should we start???

[Lady Ashanti]

http://www.sheknows.com/graphics/emoticons/bumpity.gif

[cnw]

why do you think she knew the true purpose of marriage?

[*Hope*]

Also, in this book, I would like to share my heart with you, the truths God has revealed to me and placed there from His Word, by His Spirit, and the challenges He allowed me to go through for your sake, and mine. I have paid a great price for the “lessons” in this book, paid it so some of you won’t have to.

If you don't mind me asking, aside from life lessons, have you had any formal training in theology, hermeneutics, or biblical studies? I only ask because I am very cautious when it comes to the things I read, and try to be careful with regard to who's teachings I listen to. Please don't take offense, just trying to guard my heart and mind :)

Some of the things written in this book will shake your theology, but if you will search the scriptures you will see that what I have written is accurate. I want to be real with you and that may seem a bit harsh at times, but in all of this, we will find truth.
It comes across as though you intend to "shake theology". Is this your intention? If so, how come? If this isn't your intention, why do you give a warning that this book might do this?

Again, I'm just asking so I can understand more about where you're coming from. Thanks.

[Lady Ashanti]

If you don't mind me asking, aside from life lessons, have you had any formal training in theology, hermeneutics, or biblical studies? I only ask because I am very cautious when it comes to the things I read, and try to be careful with regard to who's teachings I listen to. Please don't take offense, just trying to guard my heart and mind :)

[font=Book Antiqua]

Yes, I have been trained in Christian classes on Evangelism, Leadership, Counseling and Sermon preparation, [theology, homiletics, and hermeneutics], as well as having taught some classes. I have also been a church Administration Assistant, Secretary, and Receptionist.

I have done many things in the church from cleaning bathrooms to teaching Bible Studies, [teens, and adults], speaking at Leadership, and Singles seminars, co-hosting a Christian radio show, as well as one of my own, and speaking at special events, as well as various women's ministries. .

I am not asking that anyone buy my book, I just posted this here because there are people, [saved and unsaved], that bought it, and wanted me to have a seminar to discuss it. I thought I would have a discussion here to see how it went before doing that. Since no one responded before, I thought I would run it again to see if any of the new posters were interested.

I am not trying to "pastor" anyone, and have always felt that anyone I talk with can print out what I say and present it to their pastor for evaluation. I say print out because I am that confident in the word of God that I am sure once he reads the corresponding scriptures, he will see that I speak, and teach the truth.

It comes across as though you [I]intend to "shake theology". Is this your intention? If so, how come? If this isn't your intention, why do you give a warning that this book might do this?

Again, I'm just asking so I can understand more about where you're coming from. Thanks.

Well, not intentional, however I have found in some cases that is what happens. I taught a class on tithing, and one man got very upset with me. Since I give handouts with the outline of my teachings, and scriptures, I told him he should run it by the pastor. When he did, the pastor told him that the teaching was correct, although it was not taught like that from many pulpits. This has happen on many occassions, and is how the Lord uses me to draw His people back into the fullness of His word.

I have found that there is no in depth ministry to divorced Christians, [especially if their divorce was due to abuse], in most churches, [and I have been saved 28 years]. Churches have a tendency to just "touch" on it from the pulpit, and leave it when there are many Christians especially women who have been abused, [are being abused], in their marriages. It seems that the only "counseling" they are getting is "to submit", which is not healthy in cases of abuse. I have talked to several Pastors regarding this, and have found it to be so. The Lord has called me to minister to this group of Christians.

I am not trying to teach, and reach everyone, just those who the Lord has called me to speak to, so I take no offense at those who do not want to hear what I have to say.

Now I have a question for you...do you ask for validation of the right to minister of all who post topics for discussion on this board?

I mean, all have something that is valuable to someone to bring to the table, and since this is a message board and not formal ministry I do not feel that validation of ministry is necessary.

I have never had anyone ask me what you have, not in here, or on any other message board, especially since one can by pass the topic if they are not interested, or if they do not like what is being taught.

Just asking for clarity sake...

[Lady Ashanti]

why do you think she knew the true purpose of marriage?

I will get back to you with this answer because it will take some time, and I have to go to work. Didn't see your post...at first...

Blessings...

[*Hope*]

Yes, I have been trained in Christian classes on Evangelism, Leadership, Counseling and Sermon preparation, [theology, homiletics, and hermeneutics], as well as having taught some classes.

Were these classes through your church or a seminary? Personally, I think that churches should offer classes routinely for "lay persons" who wish to study deeper and whole-heartedly believe in developing our minds for God. So I applaud you for your pursuit of knowledge. I'm only asking for the info to get some background and understand where you're coming from.

Well, not intentional, however I have found in some cases that is what happens. I taught a class on tithing, and one man got very upset with me. Since I give handouts with the outline of my teachings, and scriptures, I told him he should run it by the pastor. When he did, the pastor told him that the teaching was correct, although it was not taught like that from many pulpits. This has happen on many occassions, and is how the Lord uses me to draw His people back into the fullness of His word.

Ah, I see what you mean now. Essentially, you feel that what you're teaching challenges presuppositions, and in some cases, traditions. Is that what you mean?

I am not trying to teach, and reach everyone, just those who the Lord has called me to speak to, so I take no offense at those who do not want to hear what I have to say.

It's not that I don't want to hear what you have to say. In fact, I am a very eager learner. I love studying and consider myself to have a very teachable spirit. I would just encourage you not to take questions (or even disagreement) personally. ALL of us are capable of teaching one another. That's how iron sharpens iron :)

Now I have a question for you...do you ask for validation of the right to minister of all who post topics for discussion on this board?

I mean, all have something that is valuable to someone to bring to the table, and since this is a message board and not formal ministry I do not feel that validation of ministry is necessary.

I have never had anyone ask me what you have, not in here, or on any other message board, especially since one can by pass the topic if they are not interested, or if they do not like what is being taught.

Just asking for clarity sake...

The reason I asked you is because you are presenting a book that you've written, as a lesson. When someone sets forth to teach any lesson, there is a perceived amount of "authority" by which they are presenting the lesson. By authority, I mean that there has been lengthy study (hopefully!), and a certain degree of qualifications. I think it is wise to clarify a person's credentials (and/or qualifications) for presenting a lesson so that we can protect our weaker brothers and sisters in the Lord from being led astray. I'm not suggesting that every person should have a PhD before they are qualified to teach something. But I do think there should be some significant amount of study on any particular subject before someone should be assumed ready to teach someone else.

I do not ask this question of most people on a discussion board because most people are engaging in discussion and open debate...not presenting lessons. Usually on a forum such as this, there are certain Moderators or others that the board deems capable of teaching lessons. Therefore, very often the things being taught are screened to a point, or at least verified to be in agreement with orthodox beliefs and the board rules. I did not see your name listed as a Moderator here, so that is why I wanted to get to know you a little more before I took your words to heart. This was not an insult to you personally in any way, it is simply how I try to protect myself and guard my heart and mind. As I mentioned earlier, I am very careful about the people I choose to let influence me.

[Lady Ashanti]

Were these classes through your church or a seminary? Personally, I think that churches should offer classes routinely for "lay persons" who wish to study deeper and whole-heartedly believe in developing our minds for God. So I applaud you for your pursuit of knowledge. I'm only asking for the info to get some background and understand where you're coming from..

My home church had a Bible Institute where everyone "called" to be in leadership were to attend classes. I usually do not talk about any qualifications because nothing truly qualifies but Christ. I am not trying to impress anyone, or make anyone feel that they must listen to me.

I come on the boards to receive a blessing, and to be one. In here we are all just brothers and sisters in the Lord, just as we are in Christ. Often times those things used to qualify, are also used to exalt, [especially in today's churches], and I am not about that. I just want God to be glorified, saints to gain the victory, and satan to remain under our feet by the power of God, the truth of His Word, and revelation by His Spirit.

[quote=*Hope*;1865260]Ah, I see what you mean now. Essentially, you feel that what you're teaching challenges presuppositions, and in some cases, traditions. Is that what you mean? .[/quote]

Yes, my "spiritual dad" never hindered us from visiting other churches, [denominations], he only asked that we study the Word of God, [and not according to his interpretation, but by the leading of the Holy Ghost, although he had those available if we needed assistance], for at least a year before doing so.

He believed that once we had the Word in our spirit, we could visit anywhere and not be turned away from the things of God. I have found that there is much being taught denominationally that are as Jesus said "teaching as doctrines the commandments of men".

When I have been chosen to teach, I teach the word of God, which most of my Pastor[s] have not had a problem with, however others in position in the church sometimes do, [shaken up]. As long as I am released by my Pastor, I do not worry about the others. Some research the scriptures and realize I am not against them, just teaching truth. Others just want strife, which I do not deal with.

[quote=*Hope*;1865260]It's not that I don't want to hear what you have to say. In fact, I am a very eager learner. I love studying and consider myself to have a very teachable spirit. I would just encourage you not to take questions (or even disagreement) personally. [B]ALL of us are capable of teaching one another.[/B] That's how iron sharpens iron :).[/quote]

Exactly what I said :), and I appreciate this. For anyone to be a good teacher, they would have had to have been a good student. I am always learning, and since I know no one person has complete revelation from God, I am looking for those who have the other pieces of the puzzle. We are the Body of Christ, with various parts and need one another.

[quote=*Hope*;1865260]The reason I asked you is because you are presenting a book that you've written, as a lesson. When someone sets forth to teach any lesson, there is a perceived amount of "authority" by which they are presenting the lesson. By authority, I mean that there has been lengthy study (hopefully!), and a certain degree of qualifications. I think it is wise to clarify a person's credentials (and/or qualifications) for presenting a lesson so that we can protect our weaker brothers and sisters in the Lord from being led astray. I'm not suggesting that every person should have a PhD before they are qualified to teach something. But I do think there should be some significant amount of study on any particular subject before someone should be assumed ready to teach someone else..[/quote]

I can understand that, however the book was not intended to be a "lesson", it was just the way the Lord told me to title it, then to change the title of the chapters to coincide, [unless He is doing something I had not planned-smh-smile-which He always is, have to really pray about that one]...

I posted this as a discussion, not for me to teach anyone anything!!! I apologize for the confusion, [thank you for helping me to understand what may have been the perception]. No, this was to be a discussion, just like any other discussion on this board maybe with just 12 different sections to it.

As far as the topic of divorce, I am divorced, and have counseled other divorced women. I have dealt with abuse in my own marriage, received counseling from a wonderful MFCC, [Marriage, and Family Christian Counselor], and ministered to other abused women in shelters, and in the church, [even a few First Ladies]. I have had 29 years of study...LOL...

In the book I am just [B]sharing[/B] what was revealed to me by the Lord, thru Rhema, and His Word, and sharing my testimony, and the testimony of others to help someone else. I do not present myself as some authority on any topic, just one of the "voices" crying out in the wilderness...that's all.

[quote=*Hope*;1865260]I do not ask this question of most people on a discussion board because most people are engaging in d[I]iscussion [/I]and open debate...not presenting lessons. Usually on a forum such as this, there are certain Moderators or others that the board deems capable of teaching lessons. Therefore, very often the things being taught are screened to a point, or at least verified to be in agreement with orthodox beliefs and the board rules. I did not see your name listed as a Moderator here, so that is why I wanted to get to know you a little more before I took your words to heart. This was not an insult to you personally in any way, it is simply how I try to protect myself and guard my heart and mind. As I mentioned earlier, I am very careful about the people I choose to let influence me.[/quote]

As I stated, I wanted this to be a discussion, just like any other discussion not with me as teacher, and anyone as student. If we were discussing the Women at the Well posted by someone else, I would come from the same premise as in the book so it really would be no different for me, shouldn't be any different for anyone else I would think.

Also, I appreciate your caution, as I always tell anyone I interact with, pray about what I say, search the scriptures to see if they are "so", and even consult your Pastor. I do nothing under a bushel...smile!

I am sure the moderator will be monitoring as well...

Blessings!!!:hug:

[MercyChild]

I woke up this morning, and the first thing I faced was trouble. I immediatly went into a depression. I checked out the forum 2, and found your threat. I was only halfway and my computer freezed up. After freezing I contiued, and than the pc shut down with no reason at all. Then I logged on again, and could not find this post.

After some time I could finally sit down and read what you have written. I really want you to know that God really used you to write this threat, because it was so very important for me to read this. It has blessed me so much, and yes I would like to join you on this discussion.

Thank you for these inspiring words. It made my broken heart feel much better this morning!:hug:

[Lady Ashanti]

why do you think she knew the true purpose of marriage?

...Because for one things she was Samaritian, a mixed breed of the Jews. Anyone with any type of Jewish upbringing, [especially back then], knew the importance of marriage and family...from their youth.

God based His whole design for the church on "marriage" that is how important it is to God...Ephesians 5: 22-33, Paul starts out speaking on marriage but then he seems to change direction and lets us know that marriage, and Christ and the church are a "great mystery"...in verse 32. if you every study any Jewish literature you will find marriage is extremely important to them, and next comes children, [read Table for Two-it is wonderful].

Side note: Why do you think the enemy acts marriages, and the church so hard? Because these are the two "institutions" created by God that are to represent the "face, and love" of God in this earth realm.

I believe she knew because she kept desiring it...and it was the second area Jesus touched on when talking to her.

I believe that many Christians do not have a proper view of marriage which is why our divorce rate is so high. It is not enough to just get married. One has to have the proper foundation, and cutivate a quality atmosphere that is conducive to the growth of all members in the marriage.

[Lady Ashanti]

I woke up this morning, and the first thing I faced was trouble. I immediatly went into a depression. I checked out the forum 2, and found your threat. I was only halfway and my computer freezed up. After freezing I contiued, and than the pc shut down with no reason at all. Then I logged on again, and could not find this post.

After some time I could finally sit down and read what you have written. I really want you to know that God really used you to write this threat, because it was so very important for me to read this. It has blessed me so much, and yes I would like to join you on this discussion.

Thank you for these inspiring words. It made my broken heart feel much better this morning!:hug:

I am so sorry to hear that you had trouble this AM, however be encouraged because one thing I have learned it when the enemy fights His hardest is when a breakthrough is right around the corner.:pray: keep on praising God...

I bless God that He allowed me to be a part of His encouragement to you..:hug:. And I am sure the Lord will use others to encourage you as well, so this should be great!!!

[hdt]

So how do you wish to start?

[hdt]

Did you see this thread on the board?

http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthread.php?t=147154&highlight=abuse

[Lady Ashanti]

So how do you wish to start?

Since I do not want to be in a teacher/student position, I would rather someone else pick a topic they are interested in, and what they know about it, so we all can join in...

Blessings!

[Lady Ashanti]

Did you see this thread on the board?

http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthread.php?t=147154&highlight=abuse

Thank you so much...!!!

[hdt]

Your welcome!

I'm not sure where to start since I'm not familiar with the book in question.

I know I have felt cut off in some senses from other women of faith due to my background. I can see their world, but they can't relate to mine. :lol: I do think they try at times!

[East to West]

Sorry...but I'm a little confused after reading this thread. I'm don't know what book is being referenced....so I'm a little in the dark. I posted the above-mentioned thread on domestic abuse and Lady Ashanti suggested I post on this thread. So, I guess my question is....."what are we talking about!?" :P Sorry, I'm new to this forum!

[Momof5]

Sorry...but I'm a little confused after reading this thread. I'm don't know what book is being referenced....so I'm a little in the dark. I posted the above-mentioned thread on domestic abuse and Lady Ashanti suggested I post on this thread. So, I guess my question is....."what are we talking about!?" :P Sorry, I'm new to this forum!

Welcome!:hug: Lady Ashanti wrote a book about the lessons from the woman at the well - she explains the lessons in posts 1 & 2 in this thread. These lessons are the topic(s) of discussion.

[Lady Ashanti]

Sorry...but I'm a little confused after reading this thread. I'm don't know what book is being referenced....so I'm a little in the dark. I posted the above-mentioned thread on domestic abuse and Lady Ashanti suggested I post on this thread. So, I guess my question is....."what are we talking about!?" :P Sorry, I'm new to this forum!

Because of your friend...

Sis...I asked you to come to the this thread because I was trying to start a discussion regarding abuse in Christian homes, and divorce resulting from this abuse. I didn't want to have to post the same comments in two places, [sometimes I have a difficult time keeping up with all the threads I am posting in...LOL].

I see that you have already been given some excellent advice from the other posters, over there, I just wanted to add this...

As one having been in an abusive marriage, and who now ministers to abused women, I understand how difficult it is for her to leave, even for her own sanity, and safety.

When one is taught that God hates divorce, to only make positive professions, that it is the wife's duty before God to submit to her husband in all things, [and whatever else she may be counseled to do]...one begans to believe that if she leaves she is displeasing the Lord, and if she loves God then it becomes impossible to even separate.

In my case, I was being "counseled" all of these very words, as well as I had to represent Christ to my husband in order for him to become saved...what was I doing that caused him to abuse me...this was my "ministry" to suffer as Christ did...the devil was trying to break up my home...if I just continued to have faith, the Lord would save my husband...smh!!! I believed all I was told and submitted to affairs, no income, verbal, emotional, and physical abuse all according to the "counseling" I was receiving. Even when the Spirit of the Lord told me it was time to go...[yes, He did]...that my husband had had enough l"light", more light than some. I asked my counselors, and they all said the Lord would not tell me to leave my husband.

Finally, my husband came home in a crack induced high, and molested my daughter. Finally I left... I was devastated because I realized the Lord was telling me to leave because He knew what was coming, [the plan of the enemy], and I listened to people instead of the Lord...smh!!!

Even in that "counselors" told me that I had to go back to him, and my "freinds" pulled away from me because I was getting a divorce, so I left the church. They made me to feel that my relationship with the Lord was predicated on my relationship with my husband, totally, so I left the church for about a year...[backslid]...feeling that if I had to stay with him in order to serve God, I could not do it although I still loved God.

I felt that I had been betrayed by the two people who were to represent Christ to me, my husband, and the church. I thought I was losing my mind, lost, and buried in guilt. At a time when I need my brothers, and sisters so badly, I was completely alone. I had to deal with my daughter's emotional trauma, my sons heartbreak-[who missed their father and didn't know why they couldn't see him], being in a shelter, and feeling that I was losing my mind, all by myself because I decided to leave my husband. I was so depleted, hurt, angry and alone...

About a year later, I heard the Lord say, "Daughter it is time to come home", I was so amazed that He still saw me as His daughter. I went to church, and rededicated my life to the Lord.

I thank God the Lord didn't leave me because He took care of me, and my children, during the time. I received excellent counseling from a MFCC, and so did my daughter, [still needs more because she still has trust issues]. It took years as I dealt with the situation before the Lord, receiving deliverance, healing, and forgiveness for others in the process. The abuse had to come off in layers, and the last one is emotional because that is "in your soul abuse".

I then began to search the scriptures regarding why this happen to me, [found out many interesting things]. I also studied, and researched abuse, as well as taking counseling classes through my church. Eventually, I ended up working as a church secretary to the marriage minister in a mega church. I questioned him regarding abuse in Christian homes, and he confirmed many things the Lord had spoken, and revealed to me.

Then the Lord began to use me in ministry to the abused, and over time I became grateful for all that I went through because if I hadn't been through it, I would not be as effective in helping others who are going through it now.

One of the things the Lord revealed to me is that at times the enemy make plant seeds in our lives, and we will have to "reap what we didn't sow" in order to be "wounded for someone else" just as our Christ was.

Then our testimony will be used to minister, and deliver many others through Christ. Your friend needs much prayer because the Lord will have to speak to her, and she will have to be in the position to hear Him. I will just ask that the Will of the Lord be done in her life.

There are other things the Lord revealed to me through His Word, and revelation then supported by the Word, which I will hopefully be able to share in the other thread.

Blessings...

[Lady Ashanti]

Your welcome!

I'm not sure where to start since I'm not familiar with the book in question.

I know I have felt cut off in some senses from other women of faith due to my background. I can see their world, but they can't relate to mine. :lol: I do think they try at times!

Why is that? What is your background...?

[East to West]

I guess part of what I fail to understand is why women stay with an abusive partner. I'm wondering how much the pressure to not get divorced has to do with it. I don't understand the phycological reasons why they won't leave, I don't inderstand why sometimes women don't see their options, don't see that it doesn't have to be like this. I do see however, that the church often hinders women from leaving/getting a divorce.

Here's a question I'll throw out there to anyone, especially those who have been in an abusive situation.....what do you think the church's role should be in aiding a woman who is being abused? If you've been in that situation yourself, what do wish your church had/ hadn't done?

Amy

[MercyChild]

Here's a question I'll throw out there to anyone, especially those who have been in an abusive situation.....what do you think the church's role should be in aiding a woman who is being abused? If you've been in that situation yourself, what do wish your church had/ hadn't done?

Amy[/quote]


My opinion is that the church is there for them that is broken and abused. I believe the church can give advise, and give them Jesus, give woman the water that will end their thirst. I have been in an abusive relationship in the past, and people in the church tend to make as if they are not aware of this sittuation. They normally turn their backs and are afraid of getting involved. Woman can carry each other through prayer. I am of the opinion that women are natural prayer worriors, and by prayers so much can be accomplished. I am still new in Christ so I do not have much advice, except praying for one another, and showing that we care, as Jesus care for us!:spin:

[cnw]

abused women usually do not follow scripture when it comes to abusive husbands. but that isn't what this thread is about and maybe we could start another thread in women at the welll about that.
I do not think the woman at the well knew what marriage was about. I think she was a lot like women today who wanted out of situation after situation. Jesus called her situation a sin so if she was just abused and neglected then it wouldn't be a sin issue. I do think at that time of course she was ready to have her heart softened and turn her heart to truth.

[Lady Ashanti]

abused women usually do not follow scripture when it comes to abusive husbands. but that isn't what this thread is about and maybe we could start another thread in women at the welll about that.
I do not think the woman at the well knew what marriage was about. I think she was a lot like women today who wanted out of situation after situation. Jesus called her situation a sin so if she was just abused and neglected then it wouldn't be a sin issue. I do think at that time of course she was ready to have her heart softened and turn her heart to truth.

Yes, this thread is about abuse, domestic violence is abuse...

I have to ask you why you feel that abused women do not follow scripture?

Also, why do you feel she did not know what marriage was all about?

Also, when did Jesus call her situation a sin?

[hdt]

Why is that? What is your background...?

I grew up in an abusive christian home. My folks were well respected with the church, and the general community. As I look back there were alot of times in which I reached out the best I could, but in the end nothing really happened. I do believe they knew, and I'm not sure why they didn't do to much. I'm sure there were all kinds of dynamics within that decision. As a child I don't know what else I could have done. lol instead of lists of abusive behaviors maybe there should be lists of things to do so people know you are serious when you ask for help! :idea: I see to often people making excuses for themselves saying they knew something was going on, but they didn't realize how bad it really was. Shame and silence are huge factors in this, and I'm not saying people should have crystal balls here! There are to many stories out there - then and present - of people saying they reached out, and nothing was done. To me that is a huge bottleneck, and maybe we need to see if there are better ways of communicating this - I don't know.

I think society in general have read the lists of behaviors, etc. They feel they are educated by that, and other factors like news stories, etc. To be blunt - they truly don't know to much esplly when you see them give advice to others. WHY don't they leave is a very common question, and also shows the fact people don't know understand the dyanmics beyond the lists! Its quite sad if you think about it. Its a huge issue way beyond the family unit, and I do think the issue is overwhelming. Could be why people don't deal with it. I don't know.

I do know I'm very careful with whom I share things with as adult. I can be this very level headed and educated person one minute, and things change when they realize what I have dealt with in my life. I'm now labeled. I do see things because of my past that others may not see as clearly, but if they don't want to deal with it at times they will act as if I'm a person that has a one track mind. I see abuse in everything and anything. :rolleyes: I found if I don't tell them about my past, and approach it like I would have anyway...lol its more acceptable! I realize there are bitter people that do see the bad in everything, but I'm not one of those! I have moved past that point in my life. I was bitter at one time (althought not to the extend I have seen others), and I think part of that was due to the fact I was never allowed to show anger or any other type of emotion. IT had to come OUT! It was very freeing! I was so clogged up that it exploded once I felt safe. I don't know how else to explain it! :D

Someone I know recently wrote about their life within the abusive marriage, and some enlightment that came to her some years later after removing herself. It went something like this!

I started thinking about how jealous he was and of whom -- whom being anyone and everyone. He was jealous of the neighbors, my friends, my relatives, my aquaintances, my co-workers, authors, movie stars, world leaders, historic and even fictional characters -- ANYONE who I might have said something positive about, especially if they were male.
He gave me the fish-eye over both Christopher Reeves AND Superman. I'm not making that up. I got the third degree over my 70 year old professor and the seventeen year old stockboy at work. When I demonstrated any reaction to a male movie star more than once I heard about how he did not find one single woman on earth attractive, other than me, and implied if I really loved him I'd feel the same way. If I mentioned some male expert on something more than once by name he'd take a slight mocking tone when he repeated their name, as if he felt threatened by Joe the Garden Guy. In a nutshell, I wasn't allowed to like or respect anyone BUT him. So I spent two decades filtering everything I said so as not to upset him. If the person I liked or admired was someone I actually interacted with regularly I felt guilty for silently secretly liking a person because of the junk I'd get from him if he found that out. I couldn't compliment any male or spend too much time talking to any female. He took "barefoot and pregnant" to a new level where in his perfect world I wouldn't be aware of the existence of anyone but him. It went so far that if I said something nice about one of our CHILDREN he'd have to point out how either he was responsible for their positive attribute, or he was the same way, but better. Needless to say, it's hard to maintain FOCUS on yourself and your own agenda when you are living with someone who interprets every tiny move you make as a threat to him. Suddenly caring about my nails would set off a connect the dots in his head as he sought to make sense out of it. Wearing perfume, eating less red meat, buying new shoes, getting a haircut, wanting a cell phone, falling asleep on the couch, keeping a journal, trying to quit smoking, wanting to see a particular movie, taking a sudden new interest in some hobby or issue -- it all MEANT something somehow I just needed to figure out what. Even in those three years between separation and divorce I was paranoid about what might get back to him somehow and how that might shape his decisions down the road.

Abusive homes are suffocating, and I don't think people realize the magnifying control they must have to keep the peace. One day something won't set them off, and they next day it will. lol you are told that you should have known the difference! YOU would have KNOWN if you loved them enough to realize the difference! There is no resolution with such a person. WELL - resolution is what they define, and they outright reject any other form of it.

Anyway - parts of her note to me really showed a picture of someone that had left behind this world. I'm not sure if I could come up with another good visual. This type of behavior breaks the person down, and they start to doubt every move they make. Every decision etc! It crushes your sense of worth, and makes you feel like you are not worth more than dirt on the bottom of a shoe.

When you do find the strength to reach out, and people tell you to work on yourself... They aren't going to see it the way people mean it! When people tell you to do things to please him etc. they know how impossible that already is. When they speak about how one day they snapped and got a bit sassy back - people tend to concentrate on that part, and almost ignore the portion beforehand. lol guess who else does that?

It seems people feel a broken person within a broken home dealing with a broken spouse should be able to make healthy choices, and accept some very simplistic advice to make sure their world can be different. I can guarantee you she feels the burden is back on her (or HIM), and will go back home feeling more helpless than they did beforehand. Chances are good she won't be back either.

If I were a betting person if people educated themselves to the dynamics of what an abusive relationship is - they will see the signs before the victim does. What alot of people don't realize is they don't know. That's the saddest part to me!

I'm a survivor in my head. lol I won't be more than a victim to alot of people! That's why I don't share to often. I dont like feeling like I'm the leper in the bible. People have a really hard time getting past the stereotypes they have in their heads.

lol does my novel answer your question? :lol:

[Lady Ashanti]

I grew up in an abusive christian home. My folks were well respected with the church, and the general community. As I look back there were alot of times in which I reached out the best I could, but in the end nothing really happened. I do believe they knew, and I'm not sure why they didn't do to much. I'm sure there were all kinds of dynamics within that decision. As a child I don't know what else I could have done. lol instead of lists of abusive behaviors maybe there should be lists of things to do so people know you are serious when you ask for help! :idea: I see to often people making excuses for themselves saying they knew something was going on, but they didn't realize how bad it really was. Shame and silence are huge factors in this, and I'm not saying people should have crystal balls here! There are to many stories out there - then and present - of people saying they reached out, and nothing was done. To me that is a huge bottleneck, and maybe we need to see if there are better ways of communicating this - I don't know.

I think society in general have read the lists of behaviors, etc. They feel they are educated by that, and other factors like news stories, etc. To be blunt - they truly don't know to much esplly when you see them give advice to others. WHY don't they leave is a very common question, and also shows the fact people don't know understand the dyanmics beyond the lists! Its quite sad if you think about it. Its a huge issue way beyond the family unit, and I do think the issue is overwhelming. Could be why people don't deal with it. I don't know.

I do know I'm very careful with whom I share things with as adult. I can be this very level headed and educated person one minute, and things change when they realize what I have dealt with in my life. I'm now labeled. I do see things because of my past that others may not see as clearly, but if they don't want to deal with it at times they will act as if I'm a person that has a one track mind. I see abuse in everything and anything. :rolleyes: I found if I don't tell them about my past, and approach it like I would have anyway...lol its more acceptable! I realize there are bitter people that do see the bad in everything, but I'm not one of those! I have moved past that point in my life. I was bitter at one time (althought not to the extend I have seen others), and I think part of that was due to the fact I was never allowed to show anger or any other type of emotion. IT had to come OUT! It was very freeing! I was so clogged up that it exploded once I felt safe. I don't know how else to explain it! :D

Someone I know recently wrote about their life within the abusive marriage, and some enlightment that came to her some years later after removing herself. It went something like this!



Abusive homes are suffocating, and I don't think people realize the magnifying control they must have to keep the peace. One day something won't set them off, and they next day it will. lol you are told that you should have known the difference! YOU would have KNOWN if you loved them enough to realize the difference! There is no resolution with such a person. WELL - resolution is what they define, and they outright reject any other form of it.

Anyway - parts of her note to me really showed a picture of someone that had left behind this world. I'm not sure if I could come up with another good visual. This type of behavior breaks the person down, and they start to doubt every move they make. Every decision etc! It crushes your sense of worth, and makes you feel like you are not worth more than dirt on the bottom of a shoe.

When you do find the strength to reach out, and people tell you to work on yourself... They aren't going to see it the way people mean it! When people tell you to do things to please him etc. they know how impossible that already is. When they speak about how one day they snapped and got a bit sassy back - people tend to concentrate on that part, and almost ignore the portion beforehand. lol guess who else does that?

It seems people feel a broken person within a broken home dealing with a broken spouse should be able to make healthy choices, and accept some very simplistic advice to make sure their world can be different. I can guarantee you she feels the burden is back on her (or HIM), and will go back home feeling more helpless than they did beforehand. Chances are good she won't be back either.

If I were a betting person if people educated themselves to the dynamics of what an abusive relationship is - they will see the signs before the victim does. What alot of people don't realize is they don't know. That's the saddest part to me!

I'm a survivor in my head. lol I won't be more than a victim to alot of people! That's why I don't share to often. I dont like feeling like I'm the leper in the bible. People have a really hard time getting past the stereotypes they have in their heads.

lol does my novel answer your question? :lol:

Sis...

This is so true...many things are not faced because it helps others to keep themselves exempt from the possiblity of that happening to them. Jesus confronted every situation.

In John 4: 4 scripture states Jesus needed to go to Samaria...He was on a mission to see this woman at the well. Her situation suggests that she had many "abusive" relationships because women were not allowed to "put away" their husbands in those days, onlythe men. She was an outcast among other women because usually women went to draw water together, but she was alone.

Also, Jesus had said Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of men's hearts, history dictates that women were valued less than dogs in those days.

I have something I want to share with you but I am at work right now, however as soon as I get home, I will post it...

Blessings to you...

[Lady Ashanti]

I guess part of what I fail to understand is why women stay with an abusive partner. I'm wondering how much the pressure to not get divorced has to do with it. I don't understand the phycological reasons why they won't leave, I don't inderstand why sometimes women don't see their options, don't see that it doesn't have to be like this. I do see however, that the church often hinders women from leaving/getting a divorce.

Here's a question I'll throw out there to anyone, especially those who have been in an abusive situation.....what do you think the church's role should be in aiding a woman who is being abused? If you've been in that situation yourself, what do wish your church had/ hadn't done?

Amy

WWJD...

What do you think Jesus would do? The church represents Christ, and Christ confronted sin. Surely, the church should NOT pretend blindness, or tell the victim to submit to the abuser until Jesus works ti out...we are the Body of Christ...His arms, hands, etc.

Maybe have a shelter for abused women, and effective counseling tailored for abusive situations.

[East to West]

WWJD...

What do you think Jesus would do? The church represents Christ, and Christ confronted sin. Surely, the church should pretend blindness, or tell the victim to submit to the abuser until Jesus works ti out...we are the Body of Christ...His arms, hands, etc.

Maybe have a shelter for abused women, and effective counseling tailored for abusive situations.


I am confused by your post. Am I understanding you correctly? Are you suggesting that the church should turn a deaf ear to abuse, and tell abused women to submit to the abuse her partner gives her? Please clarify.

[Lady Ashanti]

I am confused by your post. Am I understanding you correctly? Are you suggesting that the church should turn a deaf ear to abuse, and tell abused women to submit to the abuse her partner gives her? Please clarify.

Sorry I was typing fast, and left out a word...NOT!!!

What do you think Jesus would do?

The church represents Christ, and Christ confronted sin. Surely, the church should NOT pretend blindness, or tell the victim to submit to the abuser until Jesus works it out...we are the Body of Christ...His arms, hands, etc.

[Lady Ashanti]

I grew up in an abusive christian home. My folks were well respected with the church, and the general community. As I look back there were alot of times in which I reached out the best I could, but in the end nothing really happened. I do believe they knew, and I'm not sure why they didn't do to much. I'm sure there were all kinds of dynamics within that decision. As a child I don't know what else I could have done. lol instead of lists of abusive behaviors maybe there should be lists of things to do so people know you are serious when you ask for help! :idea: I see to often people making excuses for themselves saying they knew something was going on, but they didn't realize how bad it really was. Shame and silence are huge factors in this, and I'm not saying people should have crystal balls here! There are to many stories out there - then and present - of people saying they reached out, and nothing was done. To me that is a huge bottleneck, and maybe we need to see if there are better ways of communicating this - I don't know.

I think society in general have read the lists of behaviors, etc. They feel they are educated by that, and other factors like news stories, etc. To be blunt - they truly don't know to much esplly when you see them give advice to others. WHY don't they leave is a very common question, and also shows the fact people don't know understand the dyanmics beyond the lists! Its quite sad if you think about it. Its a huge issue way beyond the family unit, and I do think the issue is overwhelming. Could be why people don't deal with it. I don't know.

I do know I'm very careful with whom I share things with as adult. I can be this very level headed and educated person one minute, and things change when they realize what I have dealt with in my life. I'm now labeled. I do see things because of my past that others may not see as clearly, but if they don't want to deal with it at times they will act as if I'm a person that has a one track mind. I see abuse in everything and anything. :rolleyes: I found if I don't tell them about my past, and approach it like I would have anyway...lol its more acceptable! I realize there are bitter people that do see the bad in everything, but I'm not one of those! I have moved past that point in my life. I was bitter at one time (althought not to the extend I have seen others), and I think part of that was due to the fact I was never allowed to show anger or any other type of emotion. IT had to come OUT! It was very freeing! I was so clogged up that it exploded once I felt safe. I don't know how else to explain it! :D

Someone I know recently wrote about their life within the abusive marriage, and some enlightment that came to her some years later after removing herself. It went something like this!



Abusive homes are suffocating, and I don't think people realize the magnifying control they must have to keep the peace. One day something won't set them off, and they next day it will. lol you are told that you should have known the difference! YOU would have KNOWN if you loved them enough to realize the difference! There is no resolution with such a person. WELL - resolution is what they define, and they outright reject any other form of it.

Anyway - parts of her note to me really showed a picture of someone that had left behind this world. I'm not sure if I could come up with another good visual. This type of behavior breaks the person down, and they start to doubt every move they make. Every decision etc! It crushes your sense of worth, and makes you feel like you are not worth more than dirt on the bottom of a shoe.

When you do find the strength to reach out, and people tell you to work on yourself... They aren't going to see it the way people mean it! When people tell you to do things to please him etc. they know how impossible that already is. When they speak about how one day they snapped and got a bit sassy back - people tend to concentrate on that part, and almost ignore the portion beforehand. lol guess who else does that?

It seems people feel a broken person within a broken home dealing with a broken spouse should be able to make healthy choices, and accept some very simplistic advice to make sure their world can be different. I can guarantee you she feels the burden is back on her (or HIM), and will go back home feeling more helpless than they did beforehand. Chances are good she won't be back either.

If I were a betting person if people educated themselves to the dynamics of what an abusive relationship is - they will see the signs before the victim does. What alot of people don't realize is they don't know. That's the saddest part to me!

I'm a survivor in my head. lol I won't be more than a victim to alot of people! That's why I don't share to often. I dont like feeling like I'm the leper in the bible. People have a really hard time getting past the stereotypes they have in their heads.

lol does my novel answer your question? :lol:

In Jesus' day, and OT times...women were of little value, and men would divorce their wives for "any reason", and move on to the next one, [read biblical history]...however...

When Jesus came on the scene, He showed much love to women...

First of all, Christ came born of a woman…Matthew 1: 18-25.

Jesus Christ ministered to many woman at a time when men considered women to be less than a dog:

· woman at the well…John 4: 4-26.
· woman with the issue of blood…Mark 5: 25-34.
· woman caught in adultery…John 8: 3-11.
· woman with demonized daughter…Matthew 15: 22-28.
· woman with alabaster box…Luke 7: 37-50, Matthew 26: 6-13, Mark 14: 3-9.
· woman who was a widow…Luke 7: 11-15.
· Mary Magdalene…John 20: 11-18.
· Jarius’ daughter…Mark 5: 22-24, 35-42.
· mother-in-law to Peter…Matthew 8: 14-15.
· His own mother…John 19: 26-27.

So, Jesus showed women that regardless of how the "men" felt, they had value with God, which is why many women crossed barriers to follow Jesus.

[Lady Ashanti]

I grew up in an abusive christian home. My folks were well respected with the church, and the general community. As I look back there were alot of times in which I reached out the best I could, but in the end nothing really happened. I do believe they knew, and I'm not sure why they didn't do to much. I'm sure there were all kinds of dynamics within that decision. As a child I don't know what else I could have done. lol instead of lists of abusive behaviors maybe there should be lists of things to do so people know you are serious when you ask for help!

Sis...I have been in the church for 27+ years, and I want to share this with you. First, this is not an excuse, just a fact to help you understand a few things, also this may not be every church because I have not been in every church, however it is many churches.

For some reason, people feel they have to protect the "church", and make it look perfect to outsiders which does not make sense to me because in scripture, the Lord showed all the flaws of His people. In this He is glorified because it it is not by our power, but by His that we are made free.

So people, see and don't see however putting our heads in the sand will not make the problem go away, it only increases. It has the same effect of sweeping dirt under the rug, eventually you will have a hugh mess.

If we hide our sins, or the sins in those in our churches this is iniguity, and the Lord will expose it because our false portrait of perfection is a lie, and only serves to make others feel they cannot be saved because we present it as too high to attain.

I was in a major church, who started a licenced counseling office for their members, and initially I thought this was wonderful until I found out that it was for true deliverance, but to keep the in house abuses suppressed so others would know, [protect the church]. I found that out when I went into the counseling department and was instructed that if a child states they are being molested, or abused I was to report this to the department head, and not to mention it to anyone else. They said, "no sense in messing up a man's life on what might be a lie"...

Okay, I could understand the logic behind that however the law states that if abuse is reported we have 24-48 hours to report it to the police, or criminal charges can be filed against us. Also, what if that child is killed, or raped? Then how will I feel my keeping the dirty little secret so the "man" does not suffer inconvenience? This did not sound like godly counsel to me, how are we more concern about a grown man/woman more than we are about a little child?

[quote=hdt;1869831]:idea: I see to often people making excuses for themselves saying they knew something was going on, but they didn't realize how bad it really was. Shame and silence are huge factors in this, and I'm not saying people should have crystal balls here! There are to many stories out there - then and present - of people saying they reached out, and nothing was done. To me that is a huge bottleneck, and maybe we need to see if there are better ways of communicating this - I don't know.[/quote]

Yeah, one 12 year was being molested by her father, [who was an usher], and her mother knew of it, [she was a lead on the praise team], because she had "female problems", and didn't mind him messing with their daughter as long as they kept their marriage together, and their positions in the church.

I found out because her daughter was in my ministry, and when I was going to drop her off, she never wanted to go home. The Lord revealed the condition to me by His Spirit, then things begin to become obvious over time. I confronted her mom on it, and she tried to make excuses, and blame other people howeve her daughter made it real clear to her. They cried, and I referred them to family counseling.

[quote=hdt;1869831]I think society in general have read the lists of behaviors, etc. They feel they are educated by that, and other factors like news stories, etc. To be blunt - they truly don't know to much esplly when you see them give advice to others. WHY don't they leave is a very common question, and also shows the fact people don't know understand the dyanmics beyond the lists! Its quite sad if you think about it. Its a huge issue way beyond the family unit, and I do think the issue is overwhelming. Could be why people don't deal with it. I don't know. [/quote]

Since this is why I feel that a person that has not been abused, delievered, and healed is not capable of ministering to one who is in that situation, they just don't understand. The Lord told Peter the enemy desired to sift him as wheat and when he is converted [delivered] strengthen his brothers.

The Lord allows us to go through things so we can be like Him, a person that can "be touched by the feelings of " another's infirmaries. We can identify because we have been there, and we can assist in their deliverance by the power of God because it was the same power that brought our deliverance. [I want to post something in a separate response regarding this].

[quote=hdt;1869831]I do know I'm very careful with whom I share things with as adult. I can be this very level headed and educated person one minute, and things change when they realize what I have dealt with in my life. I'm now labeled. I do see things because of my past that others may not see as clearly, but if they don't want to deal with it at times they will act as if I'm a person that has a one track mind. I see abuse in everything and anything. :rolleyes: I found if I don't tell them about my past, and approach it like I would have anyway...lol its more acceptable! I realize there are bitter people that do see the bad in everything, but I'm not one of those! I have moved past that point in my life. I was bitter at one time (althought not to the extend I have seen others), and I think part of that was due to the fact I was never allowed to show anger or any other type of emotion. IT had to come OUT! It was very freeing! I was so clogged up that it exploded once I felt safe. I don't know how else to explain it! :D[/quote]

Yeah, I understand that. A long time ago, when I first began to go into ministry, one Pastor told me I couldn't because I had too many "scars". As I walked away, the Spirit of the Lord spoke stating, "no person that has been in war, and battled will leave without scars". As I pondered this, He said..."be thankful they are scars, and not wounds". I asked, "why, Lord"...and He said "because [B]scars are wounds that have healed[/B]"...

Another Pastor put it perfectly, he stated "many will try to use your past to disqualify you from ministry when they are wrong, [B]it is your past that qualifies you to minister[/B]". Amen!!! Thank you, Jesus!!! Never be ashamed of what the Lord allowed you to go through for His glory...!!!

[quote=hdt;1869831]Someone I know recently wrote about their life within the abusive marriage, and some enlightment that came to her some years later after removing herself. It went something like this!

Abusive homes are suffocating, and I don't think people realize the magnifying control they must have to keep the peace. One day something won't set them off, and they next day it will. lol you are told that you should have known the difference! YOU would have KNOWN if you loved them enough to realize the difference! There is no resolution with such a person. WELL - resolution is what they define, and they outright reject any other form of it.

Anyway - parts of her note to me really showed a picture of someone that had left behind this world. I'm not sure if I could come up with another good visual. This type of behavior breaks the person down, and they start to doubt every move they make. Every decision etc! It crushes your sense of worth, and makes you feel like you are not worth more than dirt on the bottom of a shoe.[/quote]

No one can understand this thype of pain unless they have experienced it. The worst thing about any type of abuse is that emotional abuse accompanies it. Your emotions have to do with your "soul" which is the seat of your emotions. Whoever you have sex with is a "soul tie", and taps into your soul [emotions], when that person is abusive, it goes too deep to just get up, and walk away...easily.

[quote=hdt;1869831]When you do find the strength to reach out, and people tell you to work on yourself... They aren't going to see it the way people mean it! When people tell you to do things to please him etc. they know how impossible that already is. When they speak about how one day they snapped and got a bit sassy back - people tend to concentrate on that part, and almost ignore the portion beforehand. lol guess who else does that?[/quote]

That is the wrong part of secular counseling which has seeped over into the church. Also, it is a lot easier to deal with the victim, that to confront the abuser. However scripture teaches a "bruised reed He will not break, and a smoking flax He will not put out". If you are already damaged the Lord will not send a "minister/counsel" to break you.

[quote=hdt;1869831]It seems people feel a broken person within a broken home dealing with a broken spouse should be able to make healthy choices, and accept some very simplistic advice to make sure their world can be different. I can guarantee you she feels the burden is back on her (or HIM), and will go back home feeling more helpless than they did beforehand. Chances are good she won't be back either.[/quote]

This is why any "counseling" without the power of the Holy Ghost will not work. Some people come into adulthood with issues from childhood, even after accepting Christ as Savior deliverance is necessary. Add to that the possibility that they are married to someone, [or marry someone in the church], who has their own set issues and this results in a very unhealthy environment. It is a lot easier to pretend these types of things do not happen. To pretend that these things don't exist, and if they do they can be resolved by the submission of the wife...smh!!!!

[quote=hdt;1869831]If I were a betting person if people educated themselves to the dynamics of what an abusive relationship is - they will see the signs before the victim does. What alot of people don't realize is they don't know. That's the saddest part to me![/quote]

I have to say this...which is why the Lord had me to write about it, to educate the church because the enemy does not create anything, he preverts what God has already created, and the enemy is using God's design for a godly marriage to abuse. Men come into the church looking for a "godly woman" while not truly being a "godly man", and not planning to be a good husband to her!

[quote=hdt;1869831]I'm a survivor in my head. lol I won't be more than a victim to alot of people! That's why I don't share to often. I dont like feeling like I'm the leper in the bible. People have a really hard time getting past the stereotypes they have in their heads.

lol does my novel answer your question? :lol:[/quote]

[B]That is correct[/B], and like you I refuse to be a VICTIM, even if others want to see me as such. I am who the Lord says I am, not a victim tied to my past, but a victor in my present, and future.

Thank you so much for sharing this, you are blessed, and please allow the Lord to use you, and yoru testimony to help others...

I will post some other info to share...

Blessings...

[Lady Ashanti]

Men who are abusive will swear they love their wives, but their love is not a healthy love. Their love is obsessive, controlling, possessive, and selfish. They only view their relationship from what they will receive, and never from what they should give.

I would like to believe that some men really love the women the abuse, but they are so twisted inside that do not know how to express it, but this is not so. Love can only be know by the actions it expresses, if you love someone, it should feel like it, love is a verb-action word! Either you have love, which is expressed by your actions, or you don’t, period!

Supporting a person who does not have healthy love only serves to stroke their ego, and increase their arrogance. One is “casting pearls among swine”…Matthew 7: 6, this person does not recognize your value, and has no appreciation of the “gift” that you are in his life.

However just because the one you loved did not value you, does not mean that you are not valuable. The challenge is that they always leave you feeling as though you were not good enough, [and this is their intention].

Idols of Institutions

I heard a message once on God’s people making “idols of institutions”, and doctrines at the expense of the people in them, and I believe this is true of “the institution of marriage” also. We are so busy trying to preserve the “institution”, until we no longer care about the preservation of the people that are in it. We seem to care more about the longevity of the marriage, than the quality of it. Our attitude is “no matter what-just stay married”!

We seem to have forgotten that marriage was created for mankind, not the other way around. The Lord created marriage to sustain people, not people to sustain marriage. The Jewish leaders made the same mistake regarding the Sabbath day and Jesus had to correct them by telling them…”man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath for man”…Mark 2: 23-27, also John 5: 6-11.

I always agree with the Word, so I agree that the “Lord hates divorce“, , but let‘s look a little further.

Malachi 2: 16 reads:

For the Lord God of Israel says that He hates divorce,
For it covers one’s garment with violence says the Lord of hosts.
Therefore take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously.

If you will read the scripture, the Lord is saying why He hates it, because “it covers one’s garment with violence”. When I was looking up the original meaning of this verse, it basically came down to this…the Lord hates divorce because it glosses over, or covers a person’s sinful behavior in marriage instead of requiring them to change that behavior through true repentance. The Lord looks at divorce as a violent way to cloak dysfunctional behavior.

This coincides with Matthew 19: 8a:

Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so…

Even in Jesus’ day, there were abusive men, [hardness of their hearts], and Jesus was speaking to the men, [this scripture is gender specific], because of this Moses allowed them to divorce their wives rather than be forced to remain married, and continue to abuse her. Husbands who no longer appreciated their wives, [or wanted someone else], were mistreating them. Some were getting "rid" of their wives for any reason, so Moses allowed women to be made free for their own protection.

The focus in the scripture is not on the Lord hating divorce, but why He hates it. We may dislike “remedies” we have to come up with in order to protect people, but the real problem is not the remedy, but the behavior that makes the remedy necessary.

Instead of these men repenting of their behavior, getting themselves right with the Lord, and treating their wives the way the Lord intended, they would just get a divorce, and remain the way they were. No repentance, no sorrow for their sinful practices, no humbling of themselves, just denial, and a “moving on”, and the Lord hates this!

The Lord also said He hates…a proud look, lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, hearts that devise wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to do evil, a false witness, and one who sows discord among brothers…Proverbs 6: 16-19, but we will forgive these, even overlook them at times, but not divorced people.

[B]Breeding Grounds

Let’s look at “real life” for a minute, because there are some real scary, and even dangerous things going on in homes today, even “Christian” homes, and the “church”, for the most part, does not seem to want to deal with it, thoroughly, completely, and correctly.

Most churches stick their proverbial “head in the sand”, and pretend that because they don’t see these things, they will miraculously just go away. Or they will preach a few sermons on it, and move on, [instead of designing a “ministry” to handle this sin]. They tell the “victim” to submit instead of dealing with the “predator” under the guise of keeping the family together so our “stats” will look good in the polls for Christian marriages, and our silence lends credibility to the abuser’s behavior.

Maybe if we let them know that their abuse will not be tolerated, they will change, and then the marriage will truly be saved, but instead we condemn the victim for getting a divorce, so please help me understand something here. I wish we had as many tale series on abuse, as we have on financial prosperity. The “church” refuses to deal with this issue, and because of this, situations fester, and our homes become breeding grounds for all manner of evil, [demeaning words, deprivation, violence, rape, molestation, incest, sodomy, etc.].

How is it that a woman that is “healthy” enough to leave a situation that is causing her, [and possibly her children], great emotional, psychological, and possibly physical pain, is wrong, and the man that is deliberately inflicting the pain is not? The ungodly person is under the “grace and mercy” of God, but the victim is not? A home is suppose to be a place of security, safety, support, and serenity, for everyone in it, not just one person. No one leaves a happy home!

Our children are victims themselves because, [at the very least], they view this behavior, learn it, and practice it in their own relationships. When they become adults, they pass down generational curses in their families, and who is being glorified in this??? Whose “image” is being portrayed, or represented in all this, certainly not God’s!!! The Lord told Ezekiel to look and see what His people do in secret…Ezekiel 8: 6-12.


There is more however I will wait for responses to this much...

[hdt]

Men who are abusive will swear they love their wives, but their love is not a healthy love. Their love is obsessive, controlling, possessive, and selfish. They only view their relationship from what they will receive, and never from what they should give.

I would like to believe that some men really love the women they abuse, but they are so twisted inside that do not know how to express it, but this is not so. Love can only be know by the actions it expresses, if you love someone, it should feel like it, love is a verb-action word! Either you have love, which is expressed by your actions, or you don’t, period!



I read this to a friend of mine - her response as an example!

We read about others giving book recommendations to others. I think there for a while that love languanges was popular! I'll use that as example!

You can mention the book, and you will get the look, silence, or made fun of maybe!

You can get comments after that like:

I already KNOW your love languange, and I don't need a book to read about it! If you would just grasp MY love languange everything would be just FINE! A times he will throw in come crude thing you could do for him to show him you know what is! Then act clueless or upset if your responses isn't what he is looking for! Its not made in a jolly way believe me!

If you do get the book - he will refuse to read it.

If he reads it he will tell you what you both will work on. He will be constantly reminding you of WHAT you aren't doing! no No NO - you MUST not remind him that would be RUDE! You don't NEED to tell him your languange because he already KNOWS, and if you change it you could risk a rage!

He next announces to the children, "Hey KIDS! Mom and I are going to work on the love languanges! Guess who will screw up FIRST! :rofl:" You don't like the joke. "Oh COME on it was JUST a JOKE - why are you UPSET?"

People aren't going to share to much of that stuff, and HOW they do this because they are full of shame over it. They are embarassed! They also don't want to go into the, "Did he have a bad day?" "Did you guys fight before that?" "Is he having a bad time at work" "Maybe it was just a JOKE!" stuff!

That's one example of the utter brokeness of what she speaks about. They will always remind you that they are NOT the problem - you are! :cry:

(P.S.) She liked what she heard of your article so far!

[Lady Ashanti]

I read this to a friend of mine - her response as an example!

We read about others giving book recommendations to others. I think there for a while that love languanges was popular! I'll use that as example!

You can mention the book, and you will get the look, silence, or made fun of maybe!

You can get comments after that like:

I already KNOW your love languange, and I don't need a book to read about it! If you would just grasp MY love languange everything would be just FINE! A times he will throw in come crude thing you could do for him to show him you know what is! Then act clueless or upset if your responses isn't what he is looking for! Its not made in a jolly way believe me!

If you do get the book - he will refuse to read it.

If he reads it he will tell you what you both will work on. He will be constantly reminding you of WHAT you aren't doing! no No NO - you MUST not remind him that would be RUDE! You don't NEED to tell him your languange because he already KNOWS, and if you change it you could risk a rage!

He next announces to the children, "Hey KIDS! Mom and I are going to work on the love languanges! Guess who will screw up FIRST! :rofl:" You don't like the joke. "Oh COME on it was JUST a JOKE - why are you UPSET?"

People aren't going to share to much of that stuff, and HOW they do this because they are full of shame over it. They are embarassed! They also don't want to go into the, "Did he have a bad day?" "Did you guys fight before that?" "Is he having a bad time at work" "Maybe it was just a JOKE!" stuff!

That's one example of the utter brokeness of what she speaks about. They will always remind you that they are NOT the problem - you are! :cry:

(P.S.) She liked what she heard of your article so far!

All of these books are written for Christian couples, [husband has an inkling of salvation], they are not directed toward abusive marriages, so they are not effective in those situations.

[hdt]

I agree. I think she was thinking about how these were recommended to her as help.

[Lyndie]

This is such a good topic! Lady Ashanti, do you cover other forms of abuse in marriage? Such as emotional, mental, etc. I'd like to read your thoughts on that too, cause that opens a whole other can of worms in churches too.

[East to West]

Idols of Institutions

I heard a message once on God’s people making “idols of institutions”, and doctrines at the expense of the people in them, and I believe this is true of “the institution of marriage” also. We are so busy trying to preserve the “institution”, until we no longer care about the preservation of the people that are in it. We seem to care more about the longevity of the marriage, than the quality of it. Our attitude is “no matter what-just stay married”!

We seem to have forgotten that marriage was created for mankind, not the other way around. The Lord created marriage to sustain people, not people to sustain marriage. The Jewish leaders made the same mistake regarding the Sabbath day and Jesus had to correct them by telling them…”man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath for man”…Mark 2: 23-27, also John 5: 6-11.




I couldn't agree more. The church tends to hide behind the idea of "No divorce, ever" stance, and not deal with the issue of abuse. I don't understand this. How does someone look into the eyes of a woman who just got beat up by her husband and say, "marriage is for life, go home, try harder to be a good wife". Why do people and churches do this? Is it because the issue is so complicated that we don't wish to deal with it? WHY!:giveup:

[Lady Ashanti]

This is such a good topic! Lady Ashanti, do you cover other forms of abuse in marriage? Such as emotional, mental, etc. I'd like to read your thoughts on that too, cause that opens a whole other can of worms in churches too.

If I can, what did you want to discuss about it? :pray:

[Lady Ashanti]

I couldn't agree more. The church tends to hide behind the idea of "No divorce, ever" stance, and not deal with the issue of abuse. I don't understand this. How does someone look into the eyes of a woman who just got beat up by her husband and say, "marriage is for life, go home, try harder to be a good wife". Why do people and churches do this? Is it because the issue is so complicated that we don't wish to deal with it? WHY!:giveup:
I am with you on that one...

I was ministering in a group counseling session when a sister came in late. She had a black eye, and several bruises on her face, neck, and others areas of her body that was visible. She was also carrying a baby of about 6 months old in a carry-all.

She had a history of being abused that everyone in the group was aware of her abuse from before I came there, and got quiet when she came in. Being new, I asked what had happen to her , and she stated her husband was upset...so on. She came to the meeting in hopes of getting encouragement to continue on.

I told her she needed to get to safety with her baby, to go to a shelter so she could make some clear decisions regarding her future and the future of her child. I let her know I could not advise her to divorce, [that was between her, and the Lord], however I could advise her to separate, if only for a time while she got counseling. She decided to go home for fear of what her husband might do if he came home and she wasn't there.

Afterwards, I was told by the head of the department that I could not even advise separation. I asked her what would we do if she went home, and he killed her, or the baby accidently in an abusive moment, how would we feel? I told her at least I tried to "save" her , and her child...if I said nothing I could not live with myself before God. She agreed, however said she had to abide by the "church rules", and so must I. I bowed out of the ministry...

Many times churches do not address these issues because they are going on in the homes of those in pulpits...:eek:!!!

I have counseled First Ladies, who were beat in their husband's office, [pastor's office], just before their husbands went into the pulpit to preach...:o One told me how she cried out to God asking Him to stop her husband, and had to go out to lead "praise and worship" after a beating.

We do not want such things discussed, however they will not just go away...and as the Body of Christ we will be accountible as to how we handled it, and if we handled it.

Paul was upset that the church of Corinth refused to address a sinful situation in their church, and was proud of their "grace" toward the offender. He rebuked them for not addressing the issue, this is true of any sin, and [B]abuse is a sin...

I Corinthians 5:

Immorality Defiles the Church

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife!
2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

[hdt]

Afterwards, I was told by the head of the department that I could not even advise separation. I asked her what would we do if she went home, and he killed her, or the baby accidently in an abusive moment, how would we feel? I told her at least I tried to "save" her , and her child...if I said nothing I could not live with myself before God. She agreed, however said she had to abide by the "church rules", and so must I. I bowed out of the ministry...



:cry: What I don't think people realize is how often that happens. I know it sounds insane, but you might be surprised at the attitudes within our own churches. It doesn't have to even be 'church rules'.

I have enjoyed reading a blog called 'because it matters', and I realize I can't link to it! lol Its a wordpress blog, and that woman has a gift to get the message across! She has a page of her own history with the Baptist Church as well.

Your 'church rules' portion of the story reminded me of something I dealt with. I came across an article on Focus on the Family website, and it spoke of abuse within the marriage. Dobson had advised some VERY dangerous counsel, and I just about had a FIT! I knew the author Jocelyn E. Andersen of the book Women Submit, and I pointed it out to her. She promptly contacted them, and was sent a note back stating we were correct and revised the 'advice'. I can't remember the gentlemen's name. I still have all the notes.

The part that killed me? That advice is in his book 'tough love', and after a number of revisions still hasn't been corrected. The next part? They decided since they revised the website, and his dangerous advice they still had in the book to councel an abused woman would still be a good tool for her. Encouraged the readers to buy it. :confused

I never did understand that part. lol your website was corrected, but the millions of books you send out states the 'dangerous' advice...and that's okay.

I think at that point I realized it didn't seem all that important. At least that is how I left. I'm NOT saying recall all the old books here...lol but can't you at least revise it when the revision of the book was done? :B

[hdt]

How is it that a woman that is “healthy” enough to leave a situation that is causing her, [and possibly her children], great emotional, psychological, and possibly physical pain, is wrong, and the man that is deliberately inflicting the pain is not? The ungodly person is under the “grace and mercy” of God, but the victim is not? A home is suppose to be a place of security, safety, support, and serenity, for everyone in it, not just one person. No one leaves a happy home!



This is the part I never understood. Whether the marriage is experiencing verbal abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse, etc - when the women gets brave enough and healthy enough she will attempt to separate. You can't force the person beforehand, and if you push to hard...they may cut you off due to dynamics most have no clue about. I think fear and because she feels can't leave at that point...shame! She has to be ready, and at times its very frustrating for people to wait for them to get to that point...but at times you have to. People can say they will report them to child services or what have you - but I don't think they realize how difficult it is at times for them to do a darn thing either. lol the law at times can be a landmind in itself! That was a rude awakening for ME and others!

It takes great strength to go beyond - I'm thinking of leaving to actually planning it. I don't think people even realize that part. At times it is met with 'it takes two to tango', and 'we really need to hear his side of things' WHICH can be dangerous to HER! They need that benefit of the doubt thing cleared up in their minds FIRST, and it reminds of that army saying 'Hurry up and Wait!" That can paralaze them, and in other times they decide to press on and just deal with the 'hard hearted' etc attitudes towards her. She has HUGE barriers ahead of her as it is, and now her spiritual support system is rocky as well.

I honestly not sure why. I don't know if they fear they will get sued, can't take the heat of issue, fear of what can happen, fear of the abuser...what it is...I'm not sure.

[East to West]

This is the part I never understood. Whether the marriage is experiencing verbal abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse, etc - when the women gets brave enough and healthy enough she will attempt to separate. You can't force the person beforehand, and if you push to hard...they may cut you off due to dynamics most have no clue about.

.

So then, this begs the question, how do you "carefully" encourage a woman who is starting to consider leaving. I think my friend may be reaching the point where she feels like she has tried, but she can't live this way anymore. It's a terribly difficult thing to contemplate for her, because she has been married for almost 30 years, she is very reluctant to "give up". I try to understand the "dynamics" of that situation, and I'm trying to be very careful in my words to her....how can you best help encourage a woman to separate from an abusive man?

Amy

[Lady Ashanti]

:cry: What I don't think people realize is how often that happens. I know it sounds insane, but you might be surprised at the attitudes within our own churches. It doesn't have to even be 'church rules'.

I have enjoyed reading a blog called 'because it matters', and I realize I can't link to it! lol Its a wordpress blog, and that woman has a gift to get the message across! She has a page of her own history with the Baptist Church as well.

Your 'church rules' portion of the story reminded me of something I dealt with. I came across an article on Focus on the Family website, and it spoke of abuse within the marriage. Dobson had advised some VERY dangerous counsel, and I just about had a FIT! I knew the author Jocelyn E. Andersen of the book Women Submit, and I pointed it out to her. She promptly contacted them, and was sent a note back stating we were correct and revised the 'advice'. I can't remember the gentlemen's name. I still have all the notes.

The part that killed me? That advice is in his book 'tough love', and after a number of revisions still hasn't been corrected. The next part? They decided since they revised the website, and his dangerous advice they still had in the book to councel an abused woman would still be a good tool for her. Encouraged the readers to buy it. :confused

I never did understand that part. lol your website was corrected, but the millions of books you send out states the 'dangerous' advice...and that's okay.

I think at that point I realized it didn't seem all that important. At least that is how I left. I'm NOT saying recall all the old books here...lol but can't you at least revise it when the revision of the book was done? :B

This is why "basic church counseling for couples" does not help those in abusive relationship. Look at this:

Cycle of Abuse in the Structure of Christian Marriages

I must say this, our Christian structure of marriage is very conducive to an abuser, and they will use our walk with the Lord to manipulate us into tolerating the behavior until it is too late.

Having been employed by the church on several occasions, I had the opportunity to work as a secretary for a Pastor at one time. This was a large church, and his area of ministry was marriage, [pre-marital, marriage, and divorce counseling]. Once I asked him this question, I asked him if our biblical “standards” for marriage would be conducive to an abusive man? He thought on my question throughout the day, and came to me before I left and said a simple “yes”.

Now, I am not saying that our standards are wrong, they are correct and biblically sound, the challenge is that the enemy never creates anything new, [he has no creatural ability], what he does is take the things the Lord creates and perverts them. He uses our beliefs to create an environment that allows the abuse to be accepted by the victim, and then to perpetuate it’s continuance.

Our Christian “structure” in marriage actually aids the abuser, this is why so many seek women in the church. Since I have been abused, it forced me to have to research the behavior of an abuser, and the victim.

Let’s take a look at the “cycle of abuse”, first:


Appears to be the most gentle, romantic, understanding, supportive, protective man you could ever meet.
Appears very dependable, and disciplined in his behavior, may have a measure of stability in his life. Gains the trust and confidence of the intended victim.
Rush her into a permanent, committed relationship.
Make her feel that he is the only one, [or main one], who has her best interest at heart.
Isolate her from her support system, [family and friends].
Fill her with self-doubt, low self-esteem, and insecurities about how she feels, and what she thinks.
Threatens her into silence, [or her own shame silences her], operates in anonymity.
Then the main abusive incident occurs, [physical, verbal, with emotional].

He creates a situation in order to act, [and it could be any little thing because the goal for the abuser is to act out his abuse on his victim], and he verbally assaults her, shoves/pushes her, takes control of the finances from her, has sex with her against her will, etc. it really doesn‘t matter because this is just “the test“ to see how she will respond.

Note: Her response does not stop the continuance of abuse, unless she leaves at this point, or he gets counseling as an abuser, it just slows up the process. Nothing she does will be good enough because the problem is not in her, but in him.

After that:
8. The Honeymoon Stage: the abuser treats the victim real nice, [flowers, gifts, excessive apologies, tenderness, etc].
9. Blames her for the abuse, [if she was a better wife, mother, cook, lover, etc.], if she just wouldn’t upset him, he wouldn’t hit her, or talk to her in “this” way.
10. OR he only treats her that “way” because he loves her so much, and she is the only one that can upset him in “that” way. She tries to please him...

Then the cycle starts all over again, , until eventually all the “niceties” are removed, [no honeymoon stage], and it is only abuse continually.

There is more to it, but these are the basics. This only ends in the victim leaving, the abuser gets long-term help, the abuser is arrested and jailed, or death, .

Now, let’s look at our “structure for marriage” as it relates to this, [compare with the above]:

1. We are taught that our husband is to be Priest, Provider, and Protector, [this man comes in fitting the description].
2. We are taught that a man should be disciplined, and stable, [again, he fit’s the description].
3. He rushes into marriage, which makes the victim feels that he really loves, and needs her, [when he is really rushing so he can finally be who he really is].
4. Submission to husbands, makes him the [U]final authority in the home, so, he must have everyone‘s best interest at heart in order for the Lord to entrust him with this position-right? This causes the wife to “submit” to his authority, and yield to what he says.
5. Also, submission to husbands, [as her support systems sees his abuse, he disconnects the victim from them for the “sake of the marriage“]. Again, she submits, “leaves” her family to “cleave” to her husband, also scripture states the husband is to leave, and cleave, not the wife].
THEN:
6. As he begins to exercise his “control”, [as the “head of the household”], he tears down all of her beliefs, confidence, and self-worth because she is not allowed to have an individual opinion, or disagree with him under the guise of her respecting, honoring, and submitting to him.
7. We believe in [U]the “power of the tongue”, faith confessions, and to deny what we see, so the victim is “silent” about the abuse. She only confesses what she wants to be true, and says only positive things about her husband. This allows him to never get the help he needs, and to continue to abuse her. [And if she should say something about the abuse, she is taught it is her fault because of her “negative” professions]! Worst of all, if she has to leave no one believes her because they only know the “lies” she told of his behavior under the guise of positive professions.
8. [The Honeymoon Stage appears in this also]…It is so sweet, and the victim thinks that the abuser is truly repentant and we must forgive. She believes that “it” will never happen again.
9. He blames her, or says she should love him unconditionally. She accepts blame because “we” are not perfect, and need to love one another unconditionally, like Christ. Maybe she did do something wrong because he was so nice “before”, and he “is” the man of the house, maybe she should try harder because he is under at lot of “stress”, [from work, or not working, ministry, race, family, responsibility, finances, etc. and the list goes on and on].
10. He says he needs her, she believes this, and is even flattered by his need for her, or even thinks the “enemy” is fighting her marriage. Since most of the “churches” do not talk about abuse, or how godly men should really be, she doesn’t know if this is correct or not. She knows her “walk with God” involves a certain level of “suffering”. The Lord is just using her husband to “make” her more like Him, she did vow to “love, honor, obey”…for poorer, sickness, worst”…until death do we part.
So, she stays, and tries harder, and he becomes increasingly more abusive as he sees her love and forgiveness as acceptance, and approval of his demeaning behavior.

At times, I am asked should wives always submit to their husbands as according to Colossians 3: 18? I do not think so, we have to remember that the New Testament was written to Christians, and if your husband is not “following Christ”, I do not suggest you follow him…Matthew 15: 14, especially if you know better.

You never “follow” your husband into sin, and disobedience…Acts 5: 1-10, and you never follow a “fool”…I Samuel 25: 3-32, the Lord may be using you to save your household by you disobedience to your husband, don‘t follow a “fool“.

Now some will use I Peter 3: 1-6, to instruct you in obedience even if your husband is wrong, but again look at the scripture. It is not talking about a continuing ungodly lifestyle, but situational errors. Your submission becomes an issue of trust and commitment at some point, his trust and commitment to God.

I have heard some even use David, and Saul as examples of continual submission, however David didn’t “touch God’s anointed”, but he didn’t follow him either. In fact, the lesson that is taught is that sometimes the best thing to do in such cases is to “flee”…I Samuel 19:10, 12, and 18.

Men who knowingly abuse their wives, and continue to do so while excusing their behavior are not Christians, [and if they lie about their behavior-they know what they are doing is wrong]. To be a Christian means to be like Christ, disciplining your flesh, and crucifying your old nature. Behavior excused is never changed, if a person lies about something they have done, or that they are doing, it is because they know their behavior is wrong. This man may have religion, may even be performing religious acts, but his relationship with Christ is not correct.

Now, this is not to say we need to do away with our structure, or biblical standards for marriage, we just need to be careful whom we bring into it. Also, the church needs to be aware of abuse, and counsel these situations on a case-by- case basis, instead of using basic Christian counseling to handle abusive relationships. These situations need “abuse counseling” because the usual, Christian marriage counseling is ineffective in abusive situations, and does more harm than good.

[East to West]

Note: Her response does not stop the continuance of abuse, unless she leaves at this point, or he gets counseling as an abuser, it just slows up the process. Nothing she does will be good enough because the problem is not in her, but in him. ..............................

There is more to it, but these are the basics. This only ends in the victim leaving, the abuser gets long-term help, the abuser is arrested and jailed, or death, .





Men who knowingly abuse their wives, and continue to do so while excusing their behavior are not Christians, [and if they lie about their behavior-they know what they are doing is wrong]. To be a Christian means to be like Christ, disciplining your flesh, and crucifying your old nature. Behavior excused is never changed, if a person lies about something they have done, or that they are doing, it is because they [U]know their behavior is wrong. This man may have religion, may even be performing religious acts, but his relationship with Christ is not correct.



.
Sorry.....I can't figure out how to "mini-quote your post.


So, have you even seen an abusive relationship that is restored? Without the woman leaving her husband?


If I understand you correctly, you feel that there is no way a man who abuses his wife can be a Christian.....how do you arrive at that conclusion?
Sorry, I'm asking way more questions than I am actually contributing to the discussion!

[hdt]

It sounds like you are doing what you can! ;) If I remember your past posts correctly!

I don't know if your friend will ever reach that 'broke the camel's back' part, but if she does the best thing is to help her with a safety plan for one! Allow her to make her own decisions, and just support her - she will doubt herself ALOT!

I have a friend at church that left her husband, and she is raising the two boys. I tend to stop her in her tracks with her negative self talk! Its habit, and at times you just making them realize that small issues aren't mountains can make the bigger deals more doable - if that makes sense! She was struggling with this new job she has - for example - she was just promoted. She was having a bad week with it, and started to speak about how she isn't sure she can do this - why did they pick me to do this. She was really down on herself! At this point she knows she has negative self talk, and YES I can be a bit more humorous with her about it! I try to keep it light! I reminded her she got the extra responsibility because she worked for it, and her boss felt she could do it...and reminded her that the human race doesn't expect 100% all good weeks otherwise the whole human race will go down with the ship! I did make the point UPBEAT of course, and there was more to it! By the end I had her giggling, and she told me to stop because she got the POINT! I then told her to please read some uplifting scripture to help her remember who else loves her and knows she can do things! If God closes one door he will open another one! Remind her of all the times he did this, but reminded her chances are good that isn't going to happen! LOL and it won't! Her husband's words were recording in her head again - about what failure she was. You know that saying about how you need to give a kid 10 GOOD comments compared to one BAD comment? I'm slowing erasing those recordings! LOL!

That's one way I support her!

These people break you down to a nubb! They deal is at times you don't know how much you can grow if you don't have someone cutting off your wings all the time! She can't spread them right now!

Its a hard line to tow at times, but it can be done! The rewards are awesome! They are all florishing! She was in 17 years! Is a slow process. I think she might have stayed in longer if certain comments were not made by her sons to her about the home life. Its so strange how they normally don't leave for THEM - but for the children! People don't normally bring that portion into the conversation to deep!

She is going to need to copy paperwork, and maybe have some ready cash on hand. She has a trusted friend who will hold on to that right? She is already ahead of the game there! Don't downplay your role in this! She knows you are there it sounds like, and when she is ready - she will tell you! If she is willing - give her information! Just remind her no matter which avenue she decides to go - you are going to be there anyway. Just be careful NOT to speak negatively about him to much. EVEN when you want to cut him off at the knees! If she has second thoughts she may not be to open with you - and you want those doors to stay open! THAT can be hard!

Abusive people are manipultive and they know what buttons to push - think about it - we all have them! They also know would 'moods' we respond to, and when needed they can be academy award winning actors! People that don't think they can be fooled - lol haven't met a good abuser...lol or maybe didn't know they did! They play for the audience! Alot of times they can get people to LOVE them, and they do that to make it harder for their spouse to leave! He stripped her of the support system already! If you are evil - that's a pretty good move don't you think? They can use them after they leave to - people are so good at guilt trips when it comes to this! The abuser winds them up like one of those toy soldiers and just lets them goooooooo! lol at times can manever them to think it was THEIR idea to go and talk to her! They are the smoothest con men (or woman) on this earth! LOL If they could just channel that in a different direction... ya know?

It sounds like just knowing you are there - IS what she needs right now! It has to be HER decision 100% or she will go back because she will respond to his games. He will then screw things a bit tighter! She has to be ready, and its easier when she knows she has a support system out there to help! ;) Most people - sadly - don't! Even family gets kind of neutral! They don't know what to do! I try to be the rock for my friend. She is going to make it also!

[hdt]

Sorry.....I can't figure out how to "mini-quote your post.


So, have you even seen an abusive relationship that is restored? Without the woman leaving her husband?


If I understand you correctly, you feel that there is no way a man who abuses his wife can be a Christian.....how do you arrive at that conclusion?
Sorry, I'm asking way more questions than I am actually contributing to the discussion!

I don't think asking more questions is a bad thing! LOL I think it is the point of the discussion! :idea:

What is your defination of a true Christian? Do they manipulate scripture as a means to an end? lol if they do aren't the a broken christian?

[Lyndie]

Wow, lots more to discuss. Sadly, as a wife who has a marriage that is struggleing, I understand much of this. Many women in the church also have husbands who are not saved, or who claim to be christians, but show no fruit, or are abusive. My husband is not saved, and I have gone to many pastors and have spoken to many online, much of the same old advice, submit, be nice, don't nag, no divorce ever.

I read a book once, I won't say which one, but basically one of the pieces of advice was to remember that men have a visual roledex for all the women he's ever seen, and its normal for him to think about it. Uh, last time I checked that was called lust. However, I have also been told, well, he's not a christian, so don't expect him to act like one. Uh, I know many men who aren't christians who treat thier wives great, so imo, that is a lame excuse. I've been told to submit, even to the point that if his behavior caused us to lose our home, I should just sit by and let it happen. (my issue with my husband is more of a neglect issue, and not being responsible for his actions). I believe if the behaviors of husbands cause our kids to suffer or stumble, that we, as the christian, will be held accountable to an extent.

One thing I think that gets left out too, is that Jesus even went off by himself. I'm not saying it gives us an out, but, if we are to show unsaved husbands Jesus, I do not believe for a minute, that He would sit idly by and let a man treat his wife badly, unsaved or not. Jesus confronted when necessary too.

Part of the problem too is women make martyrs out of themselves, especially those who say never divorce. Kind of like "oh woe is me, look how I suffer for Christ." I'd like to tell them, we represent Jesus, we are not Jesus, so get off your cross.

Wow, that was long, So that's what I'd like your view on. Do we deal the same with unsaved husbands? Or do we handle that differently?

[East to West]

I don't think asking more questions is a bad thing! LOL I think it is the point of the discussion! :idea:

What is your defination of a true Christian? Do they manipulate scripture as a means to an end? lol if they do aren't the a broken christian?

hdt, thanks so much for your ideas and experiences......very helpful! I define a true Christian as one who has placed their faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ and his death for us on the cross. A sinner, saved through faith in Jesus.
The abuser in question in my situation doesn't try to use scripture to justify his actions. He knows and admits what he does is wrong, he doesn't try to justify it and never promises that it won't happen again. He isn't a 'text-book" abuser. which makes it much more complicated for me to figure out, cause no one can tell me what to make of it. In his case......he became a Christian in early adulthood.....got married, raised a few kids, was a pastor for many years. Then got sick. He's got chronic, incurable health issues and he's been in chronic pain for like 10 years. It's like he totally gave up on life and on God and on everything he believed. He feels like God has abandoned him and he has given into that bitterness and anger and takes it all out on his wife. She has tried so hard to do right by him....but she can't live like this. But, she's a strong Christian, and as we all know, there is tremendous pressure to 'save the marriage" regardless of how bad things get. So, no one can tell me what to make of the situation, it's really complex. I think she needs to get out, as soon as possible. but, it's never that simple. :B Thanks again for your thoughts, I really, really appreciate all the input I have gotten here on this forum!

Amy

[Lady Ashanti]

Sorry.....I can't figure out how to "mini-quote your post.
So, have you even seen an abusive relationship that is restored? Without the woman leaving her husband?

I have only seen one case on this Christian show that comes on in the AM, [it is a Pastor, [maybe Robeson], and his wife-I believe her name is Betty]. It has been a while since I saw the show howver the man was very repentent, and open about his behavior.


If I understand you correctly, you feel that there is no way a man who abuses his wife can be a Christian.....how do you arrive at that conclusion?


The Scriptures teach that if we have repented, we should bring forth fruit of this repentence...
Acts 26:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=26&verse=20&version=50&context=verse)
but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

Also,
Romans 6:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=6&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?


Anyone who yields his "members" to continually live a life of unrighteousness is not a Christian.





Sorry, I'm asking way more questions than I am actually contributing to the discussion!

No apology necessary, that is what discussion is all about. I welcome your questions...smile!

[Lady Ashanti]

Wow, lots more to discuss. Sadly, as a wife who has a marriage that is struggleing, I understand much of this. Many women in the church also have husbands who are not saved, or who claim to be christians, but show no fruit, or are abusive. My husband is not saved, and I have gone to many pastors and have spoken to many online, much of the same old advice, submit, be nice, don't nag, no divorce ever.

Sis...we should always obey scripture; respecting our husband, have a meek and quiet spirit, [which is in the sight of GOD of great price], devoted, prayerful. The atmosphere in our homes should be peaceful, loving, beautiful...a haven for the both of you. A place where one wants to be, and run to...after a hard day in this world.

I believe that a wife should obey the scriptures in regard to her husband, and her marriage however when abuse is present then eventually she will have to make a decision for her safety, and the safety of her children.

I read a book once, I won't say which one, but basically one of the pieces of advice was to remember that men have a visual roledex for all the women he's ever seen, and its normal for him to think about it. Uh, last time I checked that was called lust. However, I have also been told, well, he's not a christian, so don't expect him to act like one. Uh, I know many men who aren't christians who treat thier wives great, so imo, that is a lame excuse. I've been told to submit, even to the point that if his behavior caused us to lose our home, I should just sit by and let it happen. (my issue with my husband is more of a neglect issue, and not being responsible for his actions). I believe if the behaviors of husbands cause our kids to suffer or stumble, that we, as the christian, will be held accountable to an extent.

That is amazing because I was told that my ex's behavior was due to his lack of salvation, however the Spirit of the Lord revealed to me the exact same thing...one does not have to be saved to be a good husband, and father...:o

1 Corinthians 3:17 (American Standard Version)
17 If any man destroyeth the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, and such are ye.

Yes, I believe if we allow others to destroy us, [or our children], emotionally, mentally, and/or physically the Lord is not pleased.

One thing I think that gets left out too, is that Jesus even went off by himself. I'm not saying it gives us an out, but, if we are to show unsaved husbands Jesus, I do not believe for a minute, that He would sit idly by and let a man treat his wife badly, unsaved or not. Jesus confronted when necessary too.

When I went thru Christian counseling after my divorce, the counselor asked me what did I think Jesus was thinking, and feeling when I was being abused? I had never thought about it...what do you-all think?

Part of the problem too is women make martyrs out of themselves, especially those who say never divorce. Kind of like "oh woe is me, look how I suffer for Christ." I'd like to tell them, we represent Jesus, we are not Jesus, so get off your cross.

Yes, it is strange that some feel that if they suffer much that makes them close to Christ, or being like Christ however the Lord ddn't ask us to die for Him, [although He will grace us for that if necessary], he asked us to LIVE for Him.

Wow, that was long, So that's what I'd like your view on. Do we deal the same with unsaved husbands? Or do we handle that differently?

Do you mean in dealing with the unsaved, and the abusive?

[Lyndie]

Basically, yes. Do your statements hold to those with unsaved abusive husbands, or does that become a whole other issue?

[hdt]

hdt, thanks so much for your ideas and experiences......very helpful! I define a true Christian as one who has placed their faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ and his death for us on the cross. A sinner, saved through faith in Jesus.
The abuser in question in my situation doesn't try to use scripture to justify his actions. He knows and admits what he does is wrong, he doesn't try to justify it and never promises that it won't happen again. He isn't a 'text-book" abuser. which makes it much more complicated for me to figure out, cause no one can tell me what to make of it. In his case......he became a Christian in early adulthood.....got married, raised a few kids, was a pastor for many years. Then got sick. He's got chronic, incurable health issues and he's been in chronic pain for like 10 years. It's like he totally gave up on life and on God and on everything he believed. He feels like God has abandoned him and he has given into that bitterness and anger and takes it all out on his wife. She has tried so hard to do right by him....but she can't live like this. But, she's a strong Christian, and as we all know, there is tremendous pressure to 'save the marriage" regardless of how bad things get. So, no one can tell me what to make of the situation, it's really complex. I think she needs to get out, as soon as possible. but, it's never that simple. :B Thanks again for your thoughts, I really, really appreciate all the input I have gotten here on this forum!

Amy

Amy:

She is still the one that needs to make a choice to do something about it. I assume people are seeing what is going on, and yet are really doing next to nothing to assist in any of this. Is that correct?

I don't know - its seems very easy for people to remind others about that 'save the marriage', but it would be the more Godly thing to do to come along side both of them in love to try to help some of it. There is much more at stake that the marriage. What I never quite understood about the silence around this type of thing is the fact that they ignore the soul that is going to perish, and they sat back and watched it happen. They depended on a hurting person to carry the entire load - as they told her they would PRAY for her, etc. That silence is enabling the sin to continue, and if I check my bible again....I do believe that is sin as well! ;)

I want to remind you that she is very lucky to have a friend like you! :pp She needs that support system in place. She also needs to realize that she can look for resources to help him, and if he refuses those resources he needs to stand accountable for them. To me that is enabling it continue as well. Is that easy? MY goodness NO! Its hard and its heart breaking! Its called tough love - not only because its TOUGH on them, but it is TOUGH on others as well! Alot of people think if it comes to separation due to the fact of his condition - it has to be vindictive. She needs to keep in mind those are normally the last ones that really help in any area at all as well! ;) At least that is how I have seen it go.

There are pain management type of programs. I have looked into them myself. Dealing with someone that is ill is bad enough, but if they continue with a 'poor me' attitude forever - that also hurts those around them. I don't think they always see the damage, because they are so consumed with their own issues. If encouraging doesn't work she needs to be comfortable taking more drastic steps. It ROTS being in his place, and I deal with that in my own home as well. He needs to feel that balance is needed, or he needs to realize that stewing in his own juices is his own choice. Not everyone has to go down with the ship.

People empathize with people with illiness such as his, but you are enabling bad behavior when you allow to take that to far. Its NOT the best thing for them, and its damaging to others in their lifes. People expect God to do the work, because they don't want to. They would much rather stay neutral - well until something drastic is done...they always have all kinds of opinions then! To bad they didn't have the spine to voice those before! lol its a little late now!

Be supportive, and just wait for her timing! The little things mean so much in a hurting world. I bet you are doing more for her than you know! ;)

[hdt]

Basically, yes. Do your statements hold to those with unsaved abusive husbands, or does that become a whole other issue?

I could be wrong Lyndie - but I believe its both. Unsaved and abusive!

[Lady Ashanti]

Basically, yes. Do your statements hold to those with unsaved abusive husbands, or does that become a whole other issue?

I do not know if your question was directed at me, or someone else so I waited for a reply. Also, I apologize for taking a while to respond if it was directed at me, I have been very busy...[smile]...

The "world" has many counseling programs for the unsaved, however they do not deal with the soul. Some of their ministries are excellent, and the church needs to incorporate some of their techniques, [the ones that do not conflict with the scriptures], into our counseling sessions in order to help Christian marriages that are abusive.

The unsaved abusive husband has a double problem because he is abusive, AND he is in need of salvation. Sometimes if they knew better they would do better, and of course his state may be improved by having a relationship with Christ through confession, and repenting of his sins, all of them.

A man that knows the word of God but knowingly, and willingly disobeys it to remain abusive is in the worst trouble with God, and in danger of being "reprobate" if he continues to disregard the conviction of the Holy Ghost, and abuse his wife.

I do look at a scripture in the bible that deals with a unsaved spouse, and remaining with him, if he is "pleased" to dwell with his saved wife:


Abusive Behavior


Then someone will ask the question, “What about abuse, should a person remain married to an abusive person”? I will touch on this here, and deal with it in depth in the Lesson Eleven.

I believe that in any marriage with challenges everything possible should be done to try to preserve it, if at all possible. I believe the couple should seek counseling, if the abuser is willing to go, honestly admitting his abusive behavior, but if he is not willing to seek help, then it leaves his mate with no options but separation, and eventually divorce.

Abusive behavior is what Jesus was taking about when He spoke of ‘hardness of heart”, and in order to correct this it takes a “heart change”, which starts with a renewed mind. Also, the victim of the abuse is never the cause of the abuse, so the one being abused cannot correct it!

I believe Paul addressed this issue in I Corinthians 7:12-15(KJV), which reads:


"But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife that does not believe, and it pleases her to dwell with you,


let him not divorce her. And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if it pleases him to dwell with her, let her not divorce him "…


But if the unbelieving departs, let him depart.


A brother or sister is not under bondage in such cases,


but God has called us to peace.


Let‘s look at the word "pleases" in that scripture, and it’s original definition:


“To think well of, in common with, feel gratified with, approve, be the good“.


In our dictionary, it means:


“to be agreeable, to oblige, to be so kind, to give pleasure or satisfaction“.


There are sisters, married to unsaved husbands that treat them very well, their only disappointment is that their husband is not saved. I have a news flash for the church, a man does not have to be saved to be a good husband, and father!

Abusive men have left the covenant of their marriage as soon as they start abusing their wives, their actions/behavior, language, and disrespect shows that they are not “pleased to dwell”. There is an old saying that goes like this, “I can’t hear what you are saying for watching what you’re doing”, in other words…action speaks louder than words.

When I was a babe in Christ, I knew a sister who was in an abusive relationship, [I didn’t know it was abuse at the time], when I first met her she was so sad, and depressed. She looked pathetic, always tired, very thin, and shabby in appearance, although she had a very good job.

One of the other sisters from the church told me to just pray for her because her husband, [while still living with her], was having an affair with a woman across the street from his family. He would leave their home to go boldly go across the street to his lover’s house regularly. He was also beating her, saying all manner of evil to her, not caring for his children, and taking any money she brought into the home.

She stayed with him because he hadn’t “left her”, and she felt bound to the marriage, she believed that she was “suffering for the Lord”. The knowledge of her situation hurt me so much, so I cried out to the Lord for her, praying that the Lord would save him, have him treat his wife correctly, and restore the marriage the way He would have it to be.

Well, I lost contact with her for a few years, and when I saw her again, she looked wonderful! She had put on weigh, was sharply dressed, but more important, her “countenance” just glowed, she was radiant! The difference was amazing, and when I talked with her, she told me that she had just come off a cruise.

I thought for sure her husband had gotten saved, and they had went on a second honeymoon, or something like that, but I was shocked to learn that she had went on a cruise with her church, [she had changed her membership from the church she used to attend when I first meet her]. She told me she had divorced her husband, then she said, “if he was pleased, he would have acted like it”!

[That was one of the occasions where I realized that although I had prayed sincerely for her husband to change, the Lord will not override a person’s will no matter how much faith we exercise].

If a husband is beating his wife, brutalizing the children, not providing for his household and family, [I Timothy 5: 8], committing adultery, not honoring his marriage vows, there is a strong indication that he is not “pleased to dwell" with her, and has vacated his position in the marriage. Just because he hasn’t physically “left the building”, doesn’t mean he hasn’t left the marriage. As the sister said, if a man is pleased, he would act like it!!!

I read somewhere that if someone loves me, IT SHOULD FEEL LIKE IT!!! If the husband will not seek repentance, and counseling to change his behavior, let him go! Scripture says the wife is not “under bondage” to stay with an abusive husband.

I do question, how "saved" a man is, if he is abusing his wife, though...

[Lady Ashanti]

I could be wrong Lyndie - but I believe its both. Unsaved and abusive!

Lyndie...as stated in my last post, I didn't know if this was directed at me, or others..so I waited...

Also, maybe my last post will answer your statement as well, let me know...:hug:

[Lyndie]

You answered my question, with the same ideas I had. Especially if a man isn't being a good husband, saved or not. You can 'leave' a marriage but still share the same space. It becomes pretty obvious by a man's actions if he is 'pleased to dwell' or not. Many times I think the man just doesn't want to look the bad guy so he doesn't leave, or, worse, if she's a christian he knows she may put up with it for a long time. I read on another bboard once that a man, and he was a christian, said, "Why on earth would I change? I can treat her like dirt and because of her beliefs, she won't leave." Its pretty sad.

[MercyChild]

Mind if i pop in and ask a question.

I am new in Christ and have a lot on unanswerd questions! According to what I have read is that he woman at the well was not married, but had other men before. Now i think I am in the same sittuation more or less. I am married but had been in other relationships before.

I struggled with addictive behavoir and ended up that my husband moved out of the house. At the end I lost everthing including my house. I ended up in a foreign country, and need to return back home sometime. My husband use to go to church, so I reckon he is a believer. In the meantime I got saved a couple of weeks ago. My husband was not the abusive one, but I emotionally abused him with my actions. Is there any amendments I can make according to scripture?

Sorry for interrupting the descussions, but i really need to know!

[Lady Ashanti]

Mind if i pop in and ask a question.

I am new in Christ and have a lot on unanswerd questions! According to what I have read is that he woman at the well was not married, but had other men before. Now i think I am in the same sittuation more or less. I am married but had been in other relationships before.

Thank you for posting, and abuse goes both ways...it is not just husband to wife, however it is mostly that way...

Where did you read that she was not married because that is not true...

4 But He needed to go through Samaria....

7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” ...
16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.”
17 The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.”
Jesus said to her, “You have well said, ‘I have no husband,’
18 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.”
19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.

I have a theory about that last one but I will not share just yet...what has been taught is a theory as well. She had been married several times.

I struggled with addictive behavoir and ended up that my husband moved out of the house. At the end I lost everthing including my house. I ended up in a foreign country, and need to return back home sometime. My husband use to go to church, so I reckon he is a believer. In the meantime I got saved a couple of weeks ago. My husband was not the abusive one, but I emotionally abused him with my actions. Is there any amendments I can make according to scripture?

The scriptures do teach on restitution, if you have repented to the Lord then you can go to your husband and repent to him as well. You did not say if you-two are still together, if you are then "bring forth fruit that is fitting to your repentence"...ask the Lord to help you amend your ways, and stop doing what you used to do.

If you are not together, that is not to say he will take you back however it will begin the healing of the wounds you left in his life, and in his emotions.

Sorry for interrupting the descussions, but i really need to know!

No interruption at all, fits right in...:hug:

[MercyChild]

Lady Ashanti

Thank you firstly for the correction on the women being married. I think I mis interpreted it.

Secondly I have made my amendments to my husband. We were not together for the past couple of months, and yes I did put stop everything I was busy with for the last 7weeks and 4 days. I repented everything, but wanted to know if there is anything that I should do to help resolve the issues and hurt I have caused my husband.

I just received an email of him tonight, that when i go back to my homeland that we will try to resolve issues.

I just never meant to cause him so much pain, and really want to do the right thing for once in my life. I did not have relationships with other men thought, but with my drugging.
Because of my addiction I use to run away in night times to have a fix. I have just hurt him in so many ways and if we should be together or not I just really feel obligated to fix what I have destroyed. If he wants out of our marriage, I would not blame him, and understand it fully. I just wish that i could put the pieces of his heart back together.

Thanx for the answers!

[hdt]

I was curious as to your reaction to the follow:

http://churchleadergazette.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/how_to_avoid_domestic_violence_by_daniel_whyte_iii _national_bestselling_author_of_letters_to_young_b/

[Lady Ashanti]

Lady Ashanti

Thank you firstly for the correction on the women being married. I think I mis interpreted it.

Secondly I have made my amendments to my husband. We were not together for the past couple of months, and yes I did put stop everything I was busy with for the last 7weeks and 4 days. I repented everything, but wanted to know if there is anything that I should do to help resolve the issues and hurt I have caused my husband.

I just received an email of him tonight, that when i go back to my homeland that we will try to resolve issues.

I just never meant to cause him so much pain, and really want to do the right thing for once in my life. I did not have relationships with other men thought, but with my drugging.
Because of my addiction I use to run away in night times to have a fix. I have just hurt him in so many ways and if we should be together or not I just really feel obligated to fix what I have destroyed. If he wants out of our marriage, I would not blame him, and understand it fully. I just wish that i could put the pieces of his heart back together.

Thanx for the answers!

Sis, I am sure that if you are sincere, he will forgive you, [I just want to prepare you that it might take a little time]. If he doesn't, then "Praise God" that the Lord has forgiven you, and your life has changed. At least you have tried to make amends, and the Lord will honor that, and deal with your ex's heart accordingly to accept your repentence, and forgive you.

You will also need to understand his pain, and be patient with him. I pray grace, and peace in this situation, and that the Lord will have His way, for His glory...Amen, in Jesus Name!!!:pray:

Be blessed...

[Lyndie]

I was curious as to your reaction to the follow:

http://churchleadergazette.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/how_to_avoid_domestic_violence_by_daniel_whyte_iii _national_bestselling_author_of_letters_to_young_b/

Looks like another 'its the wife's responsibility/problem/job to keep her man happy and she is doesn't and he beats her its her fault' story. Where is the man's responsibility in a marriage? I don't care what a woman may or may not do to please her husband. Abuse is never okay.

[hdt]

I'm sorry but I had to post one of his more humorous reasons for domestic violence.

Understand that men are very serious about their food. Food is not just a necessity to a man, it is an event. It is something that he looks forward to. So, don’t make an issue out of his food. Don’t burn his food. Make sure his food is prepared on time, whether you do the cooking or not. Make sure it is done in a sanitary fashion, meaning, for example, that you wash your hands before you touch his food. Most men are very funny about how people prepare their food. Dear sister, you can probably eat a little something and keep on moving, but a man cherishes a good meal and takes it seriously. You can avoid a lot of trouble in your marriage by making sure this area is taken care of.

:lol::lol:

I realize he was serious, and it wasn't funny.......but he has to be kidding me! Take your man's food seriously, or you are not avoiding domestic violence within your marriage!

:rofl: My food is serious to me as well, and YEP I would appreciate cleans hands preparing it! I shouldn't look at someone that burned something as trying to provoke tho!

I mean that kind of response is just CRAZY! :B:giveup:

[Lady Ashanti]

I was curious as to your reaction to the follow:

http://churchleadergazette.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/how_to_avoid_domestic_violence_by_daniel_whyte_iii _national_bestselling_author_of_letters_to_young_b/

...because there is some I agree with and some I do not...

First of all, it is never the woman's fault when her man becomes abusive. Yes, there are women who provoke however a man, [especially], a godly man, should be able to exercise some "self-control". I mean if a police officer, or a man bigger than he is, or even a best friend "provoked" him, he wouldn't abuse them so why is he allowed to abuse under the guise of "she provoked me"?

Do not marry a man prone to violence:

#1 - I agree that a man should have a respect for his mom, and that may be a gauge however I do know of men who respect their mom, and still treat their wife badly. Also, if he is to close to his mom that can bring problems which is why scriptures teaches that a man should leave his parents, and cleave to his wife. It has been taught that they both should leave, and cleave however that scripture is gender specific, [a woman cannot have a "wife"]. And we already know how many marriages have been "tried" because men do not do this.

#2 - Amen!!!

#3 - I actually agree with this because marriage is our next level of spiritual growth and "spoiled" people never grow. Scripture states that "iron sharpens iron", so there has to be a measure of constructive criticism, and that does go both ways.

#4 thru #7 - I agree with all of this!!!

Do once you are married: [some of this seems like just plain common sense]...

#1 - No, a Christian woman shouldn't lie at all, also her husband shouldn't ask questions that he really doesn't want the answer to, or that he will use in an argument against her, or that he is unwilling to answer as well.

#2 - Wandering eyes??? Is this suppose to be a Christian woman??? SMH...besides this is more of a male challenge than females. I have talked to many men about the disrespect of "checking out" other women, expecially when with their wife.

#3 - BIGGIE!!! I was always taught that you NEVER disrespect, or embarass your husband in public. Even if you disagree with his stance it is better to be quiet until you home, [unless it involves lying especially to the Lord, or the Holy Ghost].

#4 - Adultery??? This goes both ways...

#5 - Godly women shouldn't behave in this way, scripture is very clear on how a godly woman behaves.

#6 - I agree...if we, as ladies, are sensitive enough we will have insight as to how to please our mates. Because of women's lib, and other worldly attitudes many women act as though they don't "need" a man. he is not your god, however you should make your husband feel appreciated, wanted, and desired.

#7 - 8 - ROTFL...this should not even be necessary to state, however I can understand. Many young women do not know how to cook, clean, keep house, or take care of their children.

#9 - Yes, the scriptures do teach that a woman is to submit, however they also state that they both should submit to one another. A husband is not always correct, and a wife is not a child, they both share as far as input however when it comes to the final decision in the case of opposing views...the husband is to make the final decision, [unless it is something sinful, illegal, or dangerous].

I am would not marry a man who's first concern is submission from a woman because theses have a tendency to abuse. They do not want a wife, they want a slave. If a man builds an environment where his wife feels safe, he will have no problem with her yielding to his headship in submission.

Submission is not something a man demands, it is a gift a woman gives to the man she loves, trusts, and believes he has her best interest at heart. If a man has a challenge with his wife submitting, then maybe he should look at himself as to why?

10 - Sex...I agree...I believe it is an important part of a godly marriage, the scripture making love should be satisying, and regular so the enemy will not be able to bring temptation to destroy the marriage. Also, what is acceptable is according to what the both of you agree on. Your Pastor, Bishop, friends, etc. do not belong in your bedroom with you, and your husband.

After having said all this, NONE of theses things are acceptable grounds for abuse. Abuse is a personal decision from a person with personal issues that have nothing to do with his victim. She does not make him start it, and she cannot end it...

Grace, and Peace...

[hdt]

...because there is some I agree with and some I do not... I can agree with that as well!

First of all, it is never the woman's fault when her man becomes abusive. Yes, there are women who provoke however a man, [especially], a godly man, should be able to exercise some "self-control". I mean if a police officer, or a man bigger than he is, or even a best friend "provoked" him, he wouldn't abuse them so why is he allowed to abuse under the guise of "she provoked me"?

[COLOR=blue]I agree. I have seen many times claims that she shouldn't PROVOKE him, and to me when someone states this - and we are talking DV - they aren't looking close enough at this type of relationship. He is going off myths he heard about, and or possibly a charming abuser showing him why he acted this way. Charmers hardly are going to tell the whole story. Bruce Ware recently got himself into big trouble when he claimed that it could be a matter of submission, and like this author quickly claimed that's still sin. BUT the fact the bring submission into it at all - makes me realize they haven't done their homework! To me that makes them irresponsible to writing or speaking about the subject, because you blindness could get someone killed.[/COLOR]

[B]Do not marry a man prone to violence:[/B]

#1 - I agree that a man should have a respect for his mom, and that may be a gauge however I do know of men who respect their mom, and still treat their wife badly. Also, if he is to close to his mom that can bring problems which is why scriptures teaches that [B]a man should leave his parents, and cleave to his wife[/B]. It has been taught that they both should leave, and cleave however that scripture is gender specific, [a woman cannot have a "wife"]. And we already know how many marriages have been "tried" because men do not do this.

#2 - Amen!!!

#3 - I actually agree with this because marriage is our next level of spiritual growth and "spoiled" people never grow. Scripture states that "iron sharpens iron", so there has to be a measure of [B]constructive criticism[/B], and that does go [B]both [/B]ways.

#4 thru #7 - I agree with all of this!!!

[B]Do once you are married: [/B][some of this seems like just plain common sense]...

[COLOR=blue]I agree its common sense, but he isn't addressing a everyday couple here. He is addressing a couple in which domestic violence is involved. They are suppose to be a 'God Fearing Couple' is what he mentioned. If abused woman read this advice how would she feel? The man clearly is using common sense things within a marriage, and applying them to a couple in which violence is happening. If I were guessing an abusive man would love this list, and print it out...and place it on the refrig for the future.[/COLOR]

#1 - No, a Christian woman shouldn't lie at all, also her husband shouldn't ask questions that he really doesn't want the answer to, or that he will use in an argument against her, or that he is unwilling to answer as well.

[COLOR=blue]What he doesn't address is the fact the abuser will tell her she is lying whether she is or not. If they go down this road its normally because he is cycling, and wanting to rage. There are times in which if the family scared of where he is attempting to go will lie to see if they can avoid the rage. That's not lying in the sense that he is talking about. I'm not justifying this at all, but we aren't talking a normal couple here. They may do it to try to save their skin over something silly he is about to make a huge mountain about. If they tell the truth, and he doesn't like the answer they will be accused of lying. Truth or Lying - if a man is ready to go into his next cycle of violence nothing is going to stop him.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=blue]The author is telling women lying could cause them to be beat. He is making excuse for them to me.[/COLOR]

#2 - Wandering eyes??? Is this suppose to be a Christian woman??? SMH...besides this is more of a male challenge than females. I have talked to many men about the disrespect of "checking out" other women, expecially when with their wife.

[COLOR=blue]Here again! What is a common trait of the abuser? Accusing their partner of having an affair. How they are LOOKING at the box boy at the grocery store in a flirting manner. How the man must be staring at them because she is sleeping with him on the side. This author told the women they are looking at an early grave if they disrespect their man in such a manner, and tells her she needs spiritual healing? If a God Fearing Man is going to send someone to an early grave...doesn't that tell him something??[/COLOR]

#3 - [B]BIGGIE!!! I was always taught that you NEVER disrespect, or embarass your husband in public. Even if you disagree with his stance it is better to be quiet until you home, [[U]unless it involves lying especially to the Lord, or the Holy Ghost[/U]].[/B]

[COLOR=blue]I don't have a problem with this either. Again he is addressing a DV couple, and what is another trait of abuser? Mocking and ridicule in forms of JOKES! To me he is taking everyday people with their uglies, and applying them to DV situations. You can't do that! Most of the time a women isn't going to disrespect her husband to embrass him in front of others if she is scared of him. He can 'joke' around, but if she attempts to play back she will pay. God fearing men aren't going to be happy about the disrespect, but they aren't going to use violence at home as a tool to discuss it.[/COLOR]

#4 - Adultery??? This goes both ways...

[COLOR=blue]YEP! it sure does! We also know that abusers have all kinds of excuses as to why they are allowed to do this. Its her fault of course. To say adultery is a SURE cause for domestic violence is ignorance. Domestic violence is a pattern of behavior, and adultery doesn't cause it.[/COLOR]

#5 - Godly women shouldn't behave in this way, scripture is very clear on how a godly woman behaves.

[COLOR=blue]Agreed.[/COLOR]

[quote]
[COLOR=blue]Be a woman who respects and loves her husband despite his faults or failures, and be Christ-like in your response. [/COLOR]


What the author forgets is men are to do this also. A God Fearing man would handle this situation in a much different way. This is not a cause of domestic violence, and the bible does state ways in which this is to be handled. He completely glossed over that part. I can't name a person on this earth that would appreciate this type of behavior, and yet there still is not justification for domestic violence.

#6 - I agree...if we, as ladies, are sensitive enough we will have insight as to how to please our mates. Because of women's lib, and other worldly attitudes many women act as though they don't "need" a man. he is not your god, however you should make your husband feel appreciated, wanted, and desired.


We aren't talking about a regular everyday situation here tho. We are talking about domestic violence. This is another item churches use from what I have seen. I don't know about you, but I certainly don't need to be told what my desires are - and how I'm wired from a man! :lol: Normally, within a domestic violence situation the partner is doing all they can think of to please the person. It doesn't work due to their brokeness. Normally, they are going to far to try to please and then being told its still not good enough.

#7 - 8 - ROTFL...this should not even be necessary to state, however I can understand. Many young women do not know how to cook, clean, keep house, or take care of their children.

As I mentioned above - burning food is hardly an excuse for DV. He did tickle me as well!

The children part? Normally its the abusive spouse that neglects and abuses the children. Even if they don't - they aren't a good parent. A good parent respects the other one, and doesn't use DV as tool in the house at all. Abusers tend to use the children as an excuse for their abuse. You love them more than you do me, etc.

#9 - Yes, the scriptures do teach that a woman is to submit, however they also state that they both should submit to one another. A husband is not always correct, and a wife is not a child, they both share as far as input however when it comes to the final decision in the case of opposing views...the husband is to make the final decision, [unless it is something sinful, illegal, or dangerous].

Forced to submit is called coerson to me. Abusers love that verse, and love to remind their spouses they are SUBMIT to them! Churches love to use this verse, and then tell them to go back home to try it a bit harder. This man should be reminding men about what a Christian man is to be, and show them how to get there.

Lets say you have the WORSE kind of woman in your life - the bible still doesn't state this is a reason for domestic violence. He has steps he is to take as well, and this man blew that completely off. :B THAT is one of the biggest reasons woman suffer with this issue. There is a huge blindness it seems to be in that area. WOrk on yourself, and we will both play like he doesn't exist.


I am would not marry a man who's first concern is submission from a woman because theses have a tendency to abuse. They do not want a wife, they want a slave. If a man builds an environment where his wife feels safe, he will have no problem with her yielding to his headship in submission.

Submission is not something a man demands, it is a gift a woman gives to the man she loves, trusts, and believes he has her best interest at heart. If a man has a challenge with his wife submitting, then maybe he should look at himself as to why?

10 - Sex...I agree...I believe it is an important part of a godly marriage, the scripture making love should be satisying, and regular so the enemy will not be able to bring temptation to destroy the marriage. Also, what is acceptable is according to what the both of you agree on. Your Pastor, Bishop, friends, etc. do not belong in your bedroom with you, and your husband.

After having said all this, NONE of theses things are acceptable grounds for abuse. Abuse is a personal decision from a person with personal issues that have nothing to do with his victim. She does not make him start it, and she cannot end it...

Grace, and Peace...[/quote]

This is the type of advice that just sets my head spinning. Ignorance gets people killed. He is applying common sense factors to very dangerous relationships, and thinks it makes sense. :confused I can't imagine how low an abused woman would feel after reading this.

He needs to address the brokeness of an abuser, and yet to me makes excuses for them instead. :hmm: That's the part I don't get at all. I don't think he knows what an abuser is, and to me its irresponsible for someone to give advice when they are ignorant of the dyanmics.

[Lady Ashanti]

This is the type of advice that just sets my head spinning. Ignorance gets people killed. He is applying common sense factors to very dangerous relationships, and thinks it makes sense. :confused I can't imagine how low an abused woman would feel after reading this.

He needs to address the brokeness of an abuser, and yet to me makes excuses for them instead. :hmm: That's the part I don't get at all. I don't think he knows what an abuser is, and to me its irresponsible for someone to give advice when they are ignorant of the dyanmics.

Sis...I agree 100%, however I needed to break this down for those reading the article that are not in an abusive marriage so as not to throw "the baby out with the bathwater" so to speak.

I think I have been very clear as to the cycle of abuse, how an abuser uses the dynamics of a Christian marriage to manipulate, and abuse, and that the victim is never the cause of abuse.

I do want to add this though, I also agree with you that this man cannot address this issue with a woman because, [for some reason], his counsel will is bias, and he excuses the man's behavior to some degree, [I kept feeling that he was talking from his own experiences, which is "scary"]. A person cannot fully correct in an area where they themselves are struggling.:o

I can receive from men regarding relationships, and I do desire their input as to how men feel, and think, etc. however when it comes to areas where they are wrong, it is difficult for some of them to speak clearly on it, or minister justly because they have a tendency to make excuses, and shift blame.

The man on that Christian talk show that was delivered from abuse did make excuses for himself, or blame his wife. He took full responsibility for his actions, which is why the Lord blessed him to be free...:pp

Bless you, Sis...

[cnw]

ladies, the man is not talking to the men here. He doesn't have to adress the brokeness of the man, he is dealing with the wife and her actions. He did a very good job doing this. You see we do have a choice to submit even to an abusive husband. God says to do it but we still have a choice. It is our actions as women he is dealing with.
I would like to see his write up to the men, which I am sure he has one.
There is a much truth to this thread but there is an underlying lie too many are believing also. Many men out there are jerks, but lets face it, with all the drama we as women put out, there are very few that are innocent. Women get into relationships they should have never been in in the first place. They don't have the blessing of their parents, and they don't usually really know the guy they marry.

[hdt]

ladies, the man is not talking to the men here. He doesn't have to adress the brokeness of the man, he is dealing with the wife and her actions. He did a very good job doing this. You see we do have a choice to submit even to an abusive husband. God says to do it but we still have a choice. It is our actions as women he is dealing with.
I would like to see his write up to the men, which I am sure he has one.
There is a much truth to this thread but there is an underlying lie too many are believing also. Many men out there are jerks, but lets face it, with all the drama we as women put out, there are very few that are innocent. Women get into relationships they should have never been in in the first place. They don't have the blessing of their parents, and they don't usually really know the guy they marry.

cnw: I think we both realize he isn't addressing the men. That's quite clear. I don't think myself or anyone else would give the spiritual green light for the behavior he mentioned either.

I disagree if you are talking of the sin of domestic violence that you are NOT to address the broken nature of the person that is commiting that legal crime. Remember it is illegal. He is a criminal in the eyes of the law, and the behaviors that the man listed aren't going to save his behind in the front of a judge. Are you saying they should? They should in the eyes of the church? Would God agree with that? I don't think so. God would wish this broken person to be healed from the urge to hurt others in the sense. No one should submit to being abused due to some sin someone else feels they have commited against them - even if they DID do it! There is no excuse, and what this author left out is their doesn't have to a sin involved in order to be abused. Ask a victim of child abuse or other victims of violence crime! They shouldn't have to be abused because they didn't get their parents approval or went to fast into the relationship either. That is giving excuses so people don't have to deal with it.

Victims are about as innocent as you and I are. Its NOT okay in my eyes to blindly sit back and allow abuse because they didn't have the tools that others did at the time they married. Once they are healthy enough to start making changes in their lifes...to say you made your bed way back when in the days you were not innocent and didn't have the tools to make the decision we as soceity feels you should have made. Chances are very good that man or woman you are speaking to came from abused home, and felt they did better than their parents did. Come to find out their spouse was just a better charmer. Allowing those people to stew in their juices of past generations doesn't stop the cycle of violence - it allows it to continue. Don't you see that?

Allowing the jerk man as you put it and the drama lady no hope to grow and become healhier because its easy to blame them isn't going to make this world a better place. Standing up and confronting sin, and having no toleration for it will. We aren't going to make any changes in this world unless we grow a backbone, and encourage others to do the same.

When one starts to grow we need to encourage that, and not tell them they aren't innocent. You have a choice to submit to abuse. Not everyone grew up in the Christian bubble, and were geared to make good choices. If that was the requirements of the Christain life maybe we need to list that on the door before people walk in. They will then have the choice if they want to see if they should take the risk of being denied fellowship.

I'll never forget the day I realized that I had been lied to all my life by what I had been taught in the church. I saw them handing over extra burdens to the abused instead of helping. I thought it was just a mistake. WHen I realized the denial was so deep and so thick I can't tell you how hard I cried, and how completely heart broken I was. I felt betrayed! My parents had told me if I was ever in trouble to go to your church fellowship. I never realized that there was conditions on that - I was that naive! I'm passionate about this because I see this HUGE error, and I don't know HOW to turn on the light! Both parties need to be healed, and they need separate help! They didn't bring this on themselves, because the world of broken people raise broken children. No one is innocent, and they shouldn't have to be to receive help. That help at times needs to be more than words and prayers.

SOceity at times is also blinded by denial, but the church in my eyes should be more step ahead of that denial. Instead I see the holy hush where there should be a shattered silence. I refuse to validate any of the sins that man listed, but to say that is an excuse for domestic violence.....that is where I draw the line! You see you don't have to any of those things on the list to be abused, and NO people aren't innocent either! There is a video on youtube regarding a 20/20 show. She spoke of how she landed in her hole, and how she felt she landed there. If you listen to how he addressed her in the video you can see clearly the irrational mindset of domestic violence. She didn't do a darn thing except ask him what he wanted for lunch! He instructed his son to pick up a video camera to tape him berating and abusing his wife. Why? To use a a tool for family night to show the kids what a bad person mommie is. That's the reality of domestic violence - its a sick broken mindset of the abuser. We need to stop making excuses for them. She was scared to reach out, and unless we figure out a way of fixing that bottleneck so it feels safer to others.......that will also continue the cycle of violence. We need to help them feel strong enough to face it. To grow past it. Those kids in the video will struggle all their lifes to make sure they don't follow their parents NOT so innocent path. We need to tell people we will be there no matter what path they go down, and stop throwing out the spiritual pixie dust as a solution.

[Lady Ashanti]

ladies, the man is not talking to the men here. He doesn't have to adress the brokeness of the man, he is dealing with the wife and her actions. He did a very good job doing this. You see we do have a choice to submit even to an abusive husband. God says to do it but we still have a choice. It is our actions as women he is dealing with.
I would like to see his write up to the men, which I am sure he has one.
There is a much truth to this thread but there is an underlying lie too many are believing also. Many men out there are jerks, but lets face it, with all the drama we as women put out, there are very few that are innocent. Women get into relationships they should have never been in in the first place. They don't have the blessing of their parents, and they don't usually really know the guy they marry.

Yes, as I said I am in agreement with much of what he said, and I do realize that he is talking to all women, however if he was talking to abused women then his comments will do more damage than good, and leave her feeling wounded, and condemned. It is the same counsel abused women have been getting for years...what did you do to make him hit/strike/slap/kick, etc you?

His comments justify abuse by stating if the woman does the things he suggests, [or does not do certain things], she will not be abused which is a lie. First of all, regardless of anyone's behavior, no one has a right to become physical with them, they have the option to walk away. I may not be able to control others, however I do have a responsibility to control myself, [especially before God].

An abusive man will find a reason to abuse his wife no matter what she does, or doesn't do. He will mis-read her actions every time to give him an excuse to be abusive, and blame her every time he does.

This is why basic Christian counseling is ineffective in dealing with abusive marriages. We want to be fair, and have this "joint blame" mindset, [even though the Bible does not], and feel that both people need to be "worked on", and corrected not realizing that at times it is only the one person that is damaging everything.

I have heard it said that it takes two to destroy a marriage, however I disagree...it takes two people to make a marriage work, one can destroy it all by him, or herself. And when I discussed this with the pastors I have interacted with, once they gave it some thought, they agreed.

Grace, and Peace...:hug:

[Lady Ashanti]

cnw: I think we both realize he isn't addressing the men. That's quite clear. I don't think myself or anyone else would give the spiritual green light for the behavior he mentioned either.

I disagree if you are talking of the sin of domestic violence that you are NOT to address the broken nature of the person that is commiting that legal crime. Remember it is illegal. He is a criminal in the eyes of the law, and the behaviors that the man listed aren't going to save his behind in the front of a judge. Are you saying they should? They should in the eyes of the church? Would God agree with that? I don't think so. God would wish this broken person to be healed from the urge to hurt others in the sense. No one should submit to being abused due to some sin someone else feels they have commited against them - even if they DID do it! There is no excuse, and what this author left out is their doesn't have to a sin involved in order to be abused. Ask a victim of child abuse or other victims of violence crime! They shouldn't have to be abused because they didn't get their parents approval or went to fast into the relationship either. That is giving excuses so people don't have to deal with it. .

Sis...you are so correct! If one feels a person has sinned against them, then our place as Christians is to forgive, vengence belongs to the Lord, who we ALL have sinned against. A husband is to respresent Christ, so what would Jesus do.

Also, if he chose a woman who would do such things then what does that say about his "mechanism" for making the correct choices? Also, for a person to feel that a woman deserves to be abused for any reason comes from a lack of compassion. At times, I think we need to view a situation from ... "what if it was me, my daughter, granddaughter, mom, etc"? so we can operate from a different standpoint.

Is the solution for him to "beat" her into correct behavior, or love her into it? There is never any justification for abuse...

Victims are about as innocent as you and I are. Its NOT okay in my eyes to blindly sit back and allow abuse because they didn't have the tools that others did at the time they married. Once they are healthy enough to start making changes in their lifes...to say you made your bed way back when in the days you were not innocent and didn't have the tools to make the decision we as soceity feels you should have made. Chances are very good that man or woman you are speaking to came from abused home, and felt they did better than their parents did. Come to find out their spouse was just a better charmer. Allowing those people to stew in their juices of past generations doesn't stop the cycle of violence - it allows it to continue. Don't you see that? .

Sis, thank you for this very clear view of what had been stated. :oI was amazed, however I should not have been surprised to have seen that comment for it has been the underlining view in cases of abuse in the church all along. Where is the forgiveness, redemption, grace, and compassion of Christ toward the abused?

So, are we to believe that because a person did not have the proper tools to chose correctly then they deserve whatever they get?

Allowing the jerk man as you put it and the drama lady no hope to grow and become healhier because its easy to blame them isn't going to make this world a better place. Standing up and confronting sin, and having no toleration for it will. We aren't going to make any changes in this world unless we grow a backbone, and encourage others to do the same. .

...and because the church refuses to do this is whythe sin, [and it is a sin], continues in many Christian marriages. It is much easier to accuse the victim, than to correct the abuser.

When one starts to grow we need to encourage that, and not tell them they aren't innocent. You have a choice to submit to abuse. Not everyone grew up in the Christian bubble, and were geared to make good choices. If that was the requirements of the Christain life maybe we need to list that on the door before people walk in. They will then have the choice if they want to see if they should take the risk of being denied fellowship. .

To be honest, at times those who do not have the "challenges" of abuse seem to look down on those who have been abused.

I'll never forget the day I realized that I had been lied to all my life by what I had been taught in the church. I saw them handing over extra burdens to the abused instead of helping. I thought it was just a mistake. WHen I realized the denial was so deep and so thick I can't tell you how hard I cried, and how completely heart broken I was. I felt betrayed! My parents had told me if I was ever in trouble to go to your church fellowship. I never realized that there was conditions on that - I was that naive! I'm passionate about this because I see this HUGE error, and I don't know HOW to turn on the light! Both parties need to be healed, and they need separate help! They didn't bring this on themselves, because the world of broken people raise broken children. No one is innocent, and they shouldn't have to be to receive help. That help at times needs to be more than words and prayers. .

This is one of the main reasons the Lord told me to write about this, and share what I experienced, and learned from it. He wants the abused to know they are loved, He understands, and has prepared others to assist in their healing, and feeling forgiven.

It is also why I say that the revelations given in the book will "shake some theologies" because they are erroneous, and needed to be "shaken up".

SOceity at times is also blinded by denial, but the church in my eyes should be more step ahead of that denial. Instead I see the holy hush where there should be a shattered silence. I refuse to validate any of the sins that man listed, but to say that is an excuse for domestic violence.....that is where I draw the line! You see you don't have to any of those things on the list to be abused, and NO people aren't innocent either! There is a video on youtube regarding a 20/20 show. She spoke of how she landed in her hole, and how she felt she landed there. If you listen to how he addressed her in the video you can see clearly the irrational mindset of domestic violence. She didn't do a darn thing except ask him what he wanted for lunch! He instructed his son to pick up a video camera to tape him berating and abusing his wife. Why? To use a a tool for family night to show the kids what a bad person mommie is. That's the reality of domestic violence - its a sick broken mindset of the abuser. We need to stop making excuses for them. She was scared to reach out, and unless we figure out a way of fixing that bottleneck so it feels safer to others.......that will also continue the cycle of violence. We need to help them feel strong enough to face it. To grow past it. Those kids in the video will struggle all their lifes to make sure they don't follow their parents NOT so innocent path. We need to tell people we will be there no matter what path they go down, and stop throwing out the spiritual pixie dust as a solution.

...and although they struggle, more than likely they will continue in it, [unless the Lord intervenes], because it is how they are trained...[bring up a child in the way they should grow works both ways]...

If we will not deal with this sin in truth and honesty requiring true repentence, as the Lord requires of all sin, then He will deal with it by embarassing us before the world and allowing the unsaved to deal with it, [as in the very public case of the situation with that Bishop, and his wife-that was a wake up call].

You can believe that...:hmm:

[Momof5]

So far, there has been great interaction in this thread on the topic of abuse and I am thankful to you ladies for that. You are teaching someone like me who has had no dealing with abuse and have little understanding.

I do not see, scripturally, that the woman at the well was an abused woman. She may have been or may not have been - given the status of women in that time. What I do see is a woman shunned by others, but a woman important to Jesus. Jesus exposed her sin, revealed who He is and saved her. The lesson I take from her is that I was not any different from her....her sin was no worse than mine. He exposed my sin, revealed who He is to me and saved my soul.

[Lady Ashanti]

So far, there has been great interaction in this thread on the topic of abuse and I am thankful to you ladies for that. You are teaching someone like me who has had no dealing with abuse and have little understanding.

Thank you for being so open to read what is said. Anything that affects one of us, affects all of us as the Body of Christ, and at anytime we could come across a sister that is abused and in need of wise counsel tempered by compassion.

Funny, a friend of mine sat in church with a sister for a long time, and never knew she was being abused until one day she spoke about it. She said her husband beats her with a belt, and locks her in the closet when he goes to work, [any other time she is with him-I guess]. :o When my friedn brought it to me, I was shocked!

I do not see, scripturally, that the woman at the well was an abused woman. She may have been or may not have been - given the status of women in that time.

I can understand that. Due to the fact that she had multiple divorces, and women were not able to get a divorce, and Jesus said because of the hardness of men's hearts Moses' allowed a decree of divorcement...it is easy to conclude that her relationships were abusive.

I had read once in a Bible history book of how badly men treated their wives when they no longer wanted them, [which was why Moses allowed divorces]. This help me to understand this scripture better, also why Jesus had to go meet with this woman who may have been so badly misused.

What I do see is a woman shunned by others, but a woman important to Jesus. Jesus exposed her sin, revealed who He is and saved her. The lesson I take from her is that I was not any different from her....her sin was no worse than mine. He exposed my sin, revealed who He is to me and saved my soul.

Amen to that, and I praise God for the women whose lives has not been touched by abuse, and a greater appreciation for those who have the compassion to realize that "there but by the grace of God go I".

Sis, many times women want to find fault in the abused woman because then they can feel "that" will never touch their lives because they don't do what they feel she does to "cause" it, however the "triggers" are within the abuser so anyone could be the victim...it is only by the grace of God.

Also, you are so correct in that she was shunned by others, just as abused and/or divorced women are shunned today. At a time when a woman needs her friends, and sisters in Christ the most is when she finds that they are no where to be found because of the stigma associated with divorced women in the church, and tendency to make her the culprit while allowing the man to go free...smh!

Thank you for your input...

[cnw]

don't have time for much except that this thread should really be about women, not about abusive husbands. We will end up husband bashing and that is contradictory to Gods word. More later.
and God never gave women a right to divorce. The Greek says if a woman shall leave the husband and if a man shall divorce. Never does it say a woman can divorce.
The Bible also says don't leave the unsaved as by our conversation the husband may be saved. I am not going to tickle the ears of those who want to read a feel good conversation, but I have gleaned the wisdom of women (many) who have been through the abuse and lived to see their husbands saved, but first they had to change and they also brought other Godly men into the light of their husbands character. This is part of it.
man I wish I had more time, you know -holiday family and chaos. lol

[Lady Ashanti]

don't have time for much except that this thread should really be about women, not about abusive husbands.

Thank you for your input, however as the OP, and with approval from the moderator, the topic of the thread has already been decided, however I am sure your opinions will be most interesting.

We will end up husband bashing and that is contradictory to Gods word. More later.

May I please have the scriptures that support this statement...

and God never gave women a right to divorce. The Greek says if a woman shall leave the husband and if a man shall divorce. Never does it say a woman can divorce.

There are many scriptures that give a woman scriptural reasons to divorce, and once you have time to read through the thread, and see what all has been said I am sure you will see that you are mistaken.

The Bible also says don't leave the unsaved as by our conversation the husband may be saved.

Excuse me, however the scripture you are talking about states he "might" be saved, not that he definitely will.

I am not going to tickle the ears of those who want to read a feel good conversation, but I have gleaned the wisdom of women (many) who have been through the abuse and lived to see their husbands saved, but first they had to change and they also brought other Godly men into the light of their husbands character. This is part of it. man I wish I had more time, you know -holiday family and chaos. lol

My heart is aching right now, not for me but for those you minister to, [and even for you because I can only imagine the abuse you tolerated which has bought you to this conclusion], and I am sincerely going to be praying for you.

It is counsel such as yours that caused me to remain in an abusive marriage, [although the spirit of the Lord was telling me it was time to leave it]. I stayed and the end result was the molestation of my 10 year old daughter when my abusive husband came home on a "crack induced high" thinking that because I allowed him to abuse me "in the Name of Jesus", that I would allow him to abuse my daughter as well. The Lord knew what was coming and warned me, however I allowed "people" to counsel me into disobedience, and let them override His counsel, and my daughter ended up damaged.

This also damaged my faith for a very long time because I did everything I was told to do so why didn't it turn out as I was told? [because it wasn't the Lord instructing]. I praise God though because He came to minister to me, and sort it all out, filling in the gaps. One of the things He revealed is that the counsel I received didn't take into account "free will". The Lord will not override anyone's "freewill" no matter how much faith we exercise in their directon.

There may be others that want to hear your counsel, and in all fairness the board has to allow both sides of the coin to be presented however I have heard it before, and tried it before so it is not necessary for me to. I can see nothing healthy coming from my interaction with you, and I definitely do not desire to argue with you so I must put you on ignore.

Grace, and Peace...

[Lady Ashanti]

What does one do when a husband comes home on a drug induced high and molests their 10 year-old daughter?

When a wife comes to her in-laws home and finds that her husband has gone into a rage and has put his sister’s dog in a hot oven, and is banishing a meat cleaver at his own father?

What does a wife do when her husband growls in his sleep, and bites her in the face?

What does a wife do when her husband beats her with a belt, and locks her in the closet when he goes to work?

These are real situations, and I could go on about pastors who beat their wives in the church office, then goes into the pulpit to preach. What does one do when these men refuse to acknowledge their behavior as wrong, refuse to repent, refuse to get counseling, refuses all help while still professing Christ, going to church, and maintaining their positions in the house of the Lord?

Think about it?

[Momof5]

We will end up husband bashing and that is contradictory to Gods word

There has been no husband bashing thus far in the thread. If that begins happening, it will be handled appropriately. I am the moderator who discussed the thread with the OP before it was posted. Any time there is a potentially controversial topic, it is monitored. Many times the husband bashing starts with the spoiled young wives whining because they do not have complete control of their husbands, etc., etc. This is not what this thread is about.

I am in no way an advocate of divorce, but do I say never? NO! I know there are times there is no other option. I do not feel that divorce is being promoted in this thread in the situations being discussed.

If a woman and/or children are being abused, get to safety!

This topic is taking me way out of my comfort zone...it's not that I have hidden my head in the sand, but I haven't seen it - or maybe I have and didn't know it? But there is so much more to it, I am learning........

[MercyChild]

Abusive relationships is surely not what God meant a marraige to be, and I understand that only now. It took me a long way before I got to understand this. I am still new in Christ and repented what I had to. I emotionally abused my husband by my drugging adventures. I have been clean going for 9 weeks. Me and my husband is apart at this stage, as we are in diffrent countrys. I had to get rehabilitated. Since I arrived in this foreign country I met Christ and this made it easier to remain clean.

I need to return home sooner than I was planning on, due to my visa expiring, and I dont have the money to extend it. Thing is my husband is not ready to receive me yet. I took this sittuation and prayed about it, and I trust that God will help me figure this one out. As I am not clued up with the entire Bible yet, I would really like to know if there is some scriptures that I can use to help my husband heal his emotional wounds. I know I should rely on God, but I also know that His Word is their to give me direction. So if there is any advice I will aprreciate.:)

[Lady Ashanti]

Abusive relationships is surely not what God meant a marraige to be, and I understand that only now. It took me a long way before I got to understand this. I am still new in Christ and repented what I had to. I emotionally abused my husband by my drugging adventures. I have been clean going for 9 weeks. Me and my husband is apart at this stage, as we are in diffrent countrys. I had to get rehabilitated. Since I arrived in this foreign country I met Christ and this made it easier to remain clean.

I need to return home sooner than I was planning on, due to my visa expiring, and I dont have the money to extend it. Thing is my husband is not ready to receive me yet. I took this sittuation and prayed about it, and I trust that God will help me figure this one out. As I am not clued up with the entire Bible yet, I would really like to know if there is some scriptures that I can use to help my husband heal his emotional wounds. I know I should rely on God, but I also know that His Word is their to give me direction. So if there is any advice I will aprreciate.:)

I will get back with you...:hug:

[hdt]

So far, there has been great interaction in this thread on the topic of abuse and I am thankful to you ladies for that. You are teaching someone like me who has had no dealing with abuse and have little understanding.

I do not see, scripturally, that the woman at the well was an abused woman. She may have been or may not have been - given the status of women in that time. What I do see is a woman shunned by others, but a woman important to Jesus. Jesus exposed her sin, revealed who He is and saved her. The lesson I take from her is that I was not any different from her....her sin was no worse than mine. He exposed my sin, revealed who He is to me and saved my soul.

PASCH a ministry to the abused used to have this awesome picture on their website. It was a women cowering covering her child. The abuser was screaming with his hand held high with a fist. Jesus was in between them with his hand up in a STOP motion as he was protecting the woman and child. That picture made me cry, because that is the Jesus I see. What I don't see is the church along side of Jesus, because they are to busy telling her to work on herself and pray for the abuser. They feel that is enough, and I do believe it is because they don't have a TRUE picture of what domestic violence IS! I don't know how to erase the ignorance away, and why people wish to view things as WHAT did she do! If we could get the violence to stop - I bet we could heal alot of people. If we could figure WHY does he do this - it would make a huge impact on everyone's lifes!

I remember one of the first sermon's I heard a pastor do was from the Moody Bible Church. Pastor Lewster (spelling?? lol ) mentioned it was a root of rage within them, and unless we find some way of addressing the ROOT the ROOT will remain. To me is the same principal with addicts for example. If they don't learn about what the triggers are that make them use - if they refuse to deal with the past hurts if that is part of it - that root of addiction will remain there. If they can acknowledge this and learn about it they can learn to start that path to healing.

With my own childhood I had to learn it was okay to still LOVE my parents, and face the neglect that happened in my life. It was okay to see and value their gifts, but realize the debits harmed me as well. I remember my father telling me before he died that if I were raised in today's soceity, and he acted the way he did - he knew he would be in jail. Dad faced things, and humbled himself enough to acknowledge this. Not to many people I know are given this gift, and my father gave me a huge present with his words and validation. It brought me leaps and bounds ahead in my healing. I have also accepted that my mother knows as well, but is not strong enough to acknowledge this. I have learned to accept that, and I'm not going to push. She has a choice just as my father did to turn the leaf, and do as God would ask her to do. My father repented, and fully acknowledged things. He made no excuses or hinted of HOW we pushed him to this. My mother gives in different ways, and that is how I know she realizes things as well. I can't tell you how many years it took me to come out of denial, and accept the fact I was neglected. I know everyone in church wouldn't believe it. They were seen in a different light. I learned I had to go somewhere else, because I needed truth and not someone's fantasy. The truth set me free.

Someone was brave enough to place that light of truth in front of me, and realized at the time I was only ready to accept part of it. I was scared to admit all of it. I was shamed to admit all of it. I was told all my life that I was a simpleton, functional illiterate. I needed someone to take care of me, because I was unable to do this myself. Yet I was left alone most of the time to care for everything in their absence. I was afraid to voice this, because the words of 'I wouldn't be proud of that way of thinking' were to often spoken to me as a child. Speaking out meant get ready to be beat up. Told how stupid you were. My folks didn't encourage in the ways most parents would. We accepted there was always a BUT in the sentence. It was like giving us something, and then taking it away. That is to say nothing of the physical abuse that I endured for not following rules to the tee. YET they were the favorite Sunday School teacher, and Deacon within the church. I remember reaching out, and people giggling at me thinking I was being silly. WELL that is what my parents would say also, so I figured maybe they were right.

I was in my late thirties or early forties before I had the courage to accept the past. I think as I viewed others, and how they were not listened to or accepted I realized I couldn't go there. I knew myself well enough that if people took out scriptures to 'point' things out to me - I would fold like a house of cards. I knew they were wrong, but I didn't have the strength to take them on. I wouldn't take the 'looking down their noses at me' part either. I knew that was coming as well - I have seen it. I sought out secular help, but made it clear to them that I was struggling with my faith part as well. They handled one portion, and found resources for me in the other area. :cry: They saved my life. They accepted my faith portion, and sought help in that area for me. I didn't think they would do that, because of all the talk 'don't do secular!' I wondered if they had this same idealogy towards christian. I found out they didn't - they accepted it. I'm thankful God showed me it was okay to go secular, because he knew those people would point me in the right direction for my faith. He knew they had to be the 'safe' kind, and wouldn't throw scripture at me to make me fold. lol I folded to easy due to my own broken nature!

You know what happened when I addressed my root? I grew. I looked back on my life, and remember people walking all over me...I knew WHY! Then I changed! It made sense to me WHY I as afraid to confront, and WHY I was so insecure! My growth allowed security, and my change allowed me to be comfortable to speak out against things I was to afraid to before. I accepted that I did the best I could in the past with the tools I had available. I found new tools, and I accept my past. I'm a new person, and I understand how fear and all the rest can place people in a bad situations they didn't see coming. It may seem like common sense to others, but it is viewed a bit different when you have a different set of lenses on. I was used to being scared, and I thought it was just part of life you lived with. Everyone was going to tell me to hush, and that didnt' know what I was talking about. If I just did things better, and was a better Christian people wouldn't walk on me. I allowed it so it was my fault. Pretty simplistic words compared to what the reality of my world is. I wish it was that easy. lol would be GREAT if it was! :lol:

Victims themselves at times have a hard time accepting they are victims! They don't always see it! They accept there is something WRONG with them, and if they could only be better - things would finally turn around. I did for YEARS! I was to afraid and ashamed to throw out all of it, because I didn't want people to shame me more. That was a constant pattern in my life, and I was living that even as an adult. I still have trouble expressing emotions, and I'm learning NOT to stuff! I still have problems talking when I need help, because I remember the comdeming I felt when I asked as a child. My past froze my emotional growth, and the world expected me to leave that behind now that I'm adult. lol I couldn't even acknowledge it so how was that possible? :D

Some people are brave enough to place it out on the table. People are more accepting and empathic to child abuse than they are domestic violence. People feel its wrong to bully others, but when they are experiencing extreme emotional and verbal abuse with marriage they are told to take on the chin. We have alot of double standards! When I see people speak about bad relationships, and they haven't married - dang I rush to tell them to get the heck out of dodge! You know why? LOL They aren't going to told that once they marry! They are going to be told to learn to tolerate it, because they made their beds. Its scary! If they treat you like dirt - make sure they know you love them. You know what does? It gives the abuser the greenlight to continue. I think abusers relish in the advice victims get in the church. lol why wouldn't they? They are given no incentive to change - their spouse IS! LOL AND that is what they have been saying ALL ALONG! :B

This wasn't a bashing on my parents. I still love them! I know they love me. I just learned to accept what happened, and moved past it. Kids want to love their parents - even when they are abusive. They struggle with the bad stuff tho. I know that from experience, and it doesn't help them when they see their mom told to change so he can change. Jesus took on sin head on, and I have to wonder when the day is coming that we all that courage! I want it BAD! :pray:

[JesusReignsForever]

What does one do when a husband comes home on a drug induced high and molests their 10 year-old daughter?

When a wife comes to her in-laws home and finds that her husband has gone into a rage and has put his sister’s dog in a hot oven, and is banishing a meat cleaver at his own father?

What does a wife do when her husband growls in his sleep, and bites her in the face?

What does a wife do when her husband beats her with a belt, and locks her in the closet when he goes to work?

These are real situations, and I could go on about pastors who beat their wives in the church office, then goes into the pulpit to preach. What does one do when these men refuse to acknowledge their behavior as wrong, refuse to repent, refuse to get counseling, refuses all help while still professing Christ, going to church, and maintaining their positions in the house of the Lord?

Think about it?


I thank you so much for posting this and I am going to take sometime out to read through the whole thread :rolleyes: God be my strength!! I am not married but I have been through the fire for sure with my mom and her abusive marraiges. I am now 23 and I still have flash backs from my mother and father fighting when I was a very small child. Back then my mom wasnt saved but was raised in the church. Now my mom is in her 2nd maraige and although the abuse is not physical it is mental! And it just takes a extreme toll on our WHOLE family. I could not even believe my ex pastor allowed 2 previously married and divorced christians to be married both still having living spouses :o and this is an apostolic church! When I read in the bible it is clear to me about getting married again with living spouses but people translate the word of God to be what they want it to be... anyway! Abuse is not okay! Even now that I am 23 I caught myself going down the same path as my mom with the abusive relationships... my way of thinking was just messed up. Thank God he saved me from those abusive relationships I REFUSE to allow another man to abuse me mentally of physically that is not what GOD wants for his children. I still have flash backs of that too...but I plead the blood and those thoughts and fears leave. I am damaged good I think because of all the abuse I have grown with it makes it hard for me to trust a man. My own father included.

I thank you so much for this thread I was literally about to :cry: while reading some offensive posts by some.

[cnw]

There has been no husband bashing thus far in the thread. If that begins happening, it will be handled appropriately. I am the moderator who discussed the thread with the OP before it was posted. Any time there is a potentially controversial topic, it is monitored. Many times the husband bashing starts with the spoiled young wives whining because they do not have complete control of their husbands, etc., etc. This is not what this thread is about.

I am in no way an advocate of divorce, but do I say never? NO! I know there are times there is no other option. I do not feel that divorce is being promoted in this thread in the situations being discussed.

If a woman and/or children are being abused, get to safety!

This topic is taking me way out of my comfort zone...it's not that I have hidden my head in the sand, but I haven't seen it - or maybe I have and didn't know it? But there is so much more to it, I am learning........
I am glad we talked about this earlier and I agree with you. I do believe there is a time to protect ourselves and our children. I also do know that there are many women who are jsut as much to blame as the men. I used to goad my hsuband till I backed him into a corner. I was not in any way respectful and didn't even understand respect. I also know that we women don't want to see our husbands have addictions and insecurities that we as their help mates should help them get out of.
I rarely hear of women going to the police when there is abuse. They are threatened and beaten and then continue in a cycle.
There are many scriptures that give a woman scriptural reasons to divorce, and once you have time to read through the thread, and see what all has been said I am sure you will see that you are mistaken.

The only Scriputre that backups any divorce is adultry. God gave divorce due to the hardness of hearts. that is the one divorcing can be hardened also. there is no other Scripture to back up any other divorce.
Excuse me, however the scripture you are talking about states he "might" be saved, not that he definitely will.

I agree, that is why I quoted Scripture that said May be. I saw this in my own marriage where My husband turned a full 180.
There may be others that want to hear your counsel, and in all fairness the board has to allow both sides of the coin to be presented however I have heard it before, and tried it before so it is not necessary for me to. I can see nothing healthy coming from my interaction with you, and I definitely do not desire to argue with you so I must put you on ignore.

One of us saw a wonderful thing happen in our marriage and one of us saw nothing but misery...both of us were severly hurt and both of us have advice but your comments can sound biter. I understand the bitterness, but I also understand the desperation in your words to be someone elses savior (small s). You want to see escape, we both do, we just see it from different perspectives.

In order to have fellowship with a husband that is Godly, both parties must have fellowship with the Lord. As women we are usually deceived as Eve. The Bible says "the woman was deceived". So not only should we be cautious before marriage, but we should also have the blessing of our parents and Godly counsel. Not many couples have that and end up with any kind of addict for a husband, and husbands end up with unsubmissive/desrespectful wives.

[East to West]

In order to have fellowship with a husband that is Godly, both parties must have fellowship with the Lord. As women we are usually deceived as Eve. The Bible says "the woman was deceived". So not only should we be cautious before marriage, but we should also have the blessing of our parents and Godly counsel. Not many couples have that and end up with any kind of addict for a husband, and husbands end up with unsubmissive/desrespectful wives.

I definately agree that one should be very cautious and seek Godly counsel before getting married, but that does not necessarily protect you from abuse. I truly believe that there are times when there are no warning signs. I've seen marriages that are solid and Godly for 15 years slowly crumble into addiction and abuse. It's heartbreaking and I don't understand it, but it happens. I think that we all need to realize that it can happen anywhere, that we are all sinful and capable of sinning. No amount of counsel can shield a marriage from sin.

[cnw]

It happens because we are not accountable to one another as God intended. Many times the wife (very rarely a wife is abusive so I am going this direction) is so bent on believing her husband is uncapeable of being unfaithful that she wont talk about it because she wont face it. A man slowly emerges into a secret society with himself with a lust driven mind and slowly or very quickly depending on how much his addiction is or what he is into, he becomes violent and angry. Lust breeds anger. The culprit of the outlet is the wife and children.
When we think that we or our Bible thumping husbands are not capeable of being in heanius sin, we must think again. Confronting our husbands is not wrong. It is how we confront them. We are their help meets. We need to be their accountability partners. We need to ask them, Hey how are you doing in the lust department? Are you struggling, battling, or falling flat on your face?
We as women need to know that it will hurt when they say yes and then not scream, yell, or commit suicide, but find help or work with our husbands to fast and pray and tear down strongholds. It is our job to be the accountability partner. It hurts, but when the husband is free and gets everything out, then our marrriages become free. It is an amazing process, but it only works when there is admital, repentance, and forgiveness. Even a non-Christian can be broken and understan d that this is destroying his wife. Men don't want to beat their wives, they just don't know how to tear down the strongholds.

[hdt]

I found a news story today that is along the lines of what this thread is attempting to talk about. Elizabeth's Story (http://www.wsaw.com/home/headlines/34834324.html#) She wasn't believed even after he was arrested and convicted, and she endures physical therapy from her injuries.


"We like the way he looks in public, so he must be that way with you."



"My integrity has been questioned, my interpretation of the events has been questioned, and I have been repeatedly told that what he's telling me is correct."

[Lady Ashanti]

I found a news story today that is along the lines of what this thread is attempting to talk about. Elizabeth's Story (http://www.wsaw.com/home/headlines/34834324.html#) She wasn't believed even after he was arrested and convicted, and she endures physical therapy from her injuries.

Thank you so much fo rsharing this sorry. These situations are real, and we misrespresent the Lord when we justify and/or excuse a man hitting his wife. He is to love His wife like Christ loves the Chruch, and Christ does not "beat" us into submission, that is demonic.

When I went through Christian counseling regarding my abusive marriage, and the molestation of my daughter, the counselor asked me one question that changed my life. She said...what do you think Jesus was feeling when he was abusing you? I had never thought about it, and when I did I could imagine Jesus being pleased.

He loves us, and it is sad when His church, [and our husbands], causes us to feel that He does not.

Blessings to you...:hug:

[hdt]

I found a video recently about this subject as well. When Submission is misued. (http://rbc.gospelcom.net/flashplayer/index.php?http://rbcorg.flashsvc.vitalstreamcdn.com/rbcorg_vitalstream_com/_definst_/dod/programs/2050.flv) They interviewed authors, biblical scholars, victims, etc. It was telling to me that the women in the interview mentioned that it took many people telling her that she was being abused before she was able to believe it. For the most part he was told to do better by him. The part that blew my mind was a story about the 'leave and cleave'. Her husband was using scripture stating that she is speaking and dealing with her family to much, and isn't doing this properly. She moved and cut the contact to almost nothing, and he told her it still wasn't good enough .... the emotional part was still there. :o

They have a couple that decided as part of their ministry they were going to work with the local domestic violence shelters. They were asking for an interview, and they mentioned the first thing the shelters asked of them what, "What are your views on headship?" The headship dicussion was quite telling for them, and how it had been used to show how they must put up with the abuse - how you are to do whatever your husband asked of you, etc. How the presented as authority, and everything must be his way - and not one of protection and service. It was warped, and how it can be used in ways that God didn't intend. :cry:

There was another one that I watched that spoke about a pastor and his wife - how he turned from his abusive nature. How it wasn't as simple as forgiveness from his wife, but how it took years for him years to show the geniune repentance...and he know ministers to other men. His wife wrote a book about this. He was very upfront about some of the issues we spoke about here, and it was heart warming.

Watching both of these it shows to me how most women don't even realize they are in a bad situation. They tend to stick up for the husbands, and blame themselves in order to keep the peace. It wasn't until those that stopped and looked actually saw what was going on tried to pry her out of denial. On the outside everything looked fine, and it took a while to bring her out of denial in order for her to help herself. :hmm:

[Lady Ashanti]

I found a video recently about this subject as well. When Submission is misued. (http://rbc.gospelcom.net/flashplayer/index.php?http://rbcorg.flashsvc.vitalstreamcdn.com/rbcorg_vitalstream_com/_definst_/dod/programs/2050.flv) They interviewed authors, biblical scholars, victims, etc. It was telling to me that the women in the interview mentioned that it took many people telling her that she was being abused before she was able to believe it. For the most part he was told to do better by him. The part that blew my mind was a story about the 'leave and cleave'. Her husband was using scripture stating that she is speaking and dealing with her family to much, and isn't doing this properly. She moved and cut the contact to almost nothing, and he told her it still wasn't good enough .... the emotional part was still there. :o

They have a couple that decided as part of their ministry they were going to work with the local domestic violence shelters. They were asking for an interview, and they mentioned the first thing the shelters asked of them what, "What are your views on headship?" The headship dicussion was quite telling for them, and how it had been used to show how they must put up with the abuse - how you are to do whatever your husband asked of you, etc. How the presented as authority, and everything must be his way - and not one of protection and service. It was warped, and how it can be used in ways that God didn't intend. :cry:

There was another one that I watched that spoke about a pastor and his wife - how he turned from his abusive nature. How it wasn't as simple as forgiveness from his wife, but how it took years for him years to show the geniune repentance...and he know ministers to other men. His wife wrote a book about this. He was very upfront about some of the issues we spoke about here, and it was heart warming.

Watching both of these it shows to me how most women don't even realize they are in a bad situation. They tend to stick up for the husbands, and blame themselves in order to keep the peace. It wasn't until those that stopped and looked actually saw what was going on tried to pry her out of denial. On the outside everything looked fine, and it took a while to bring her out of denial in order for her to help herself. :hmm:

Thank you, Sis...

Th einfo you have been posting is very informative. I will watch the video when I go home, [I am at work, and although my manager does not mind my computer usage, I have no speakers here-smile].

It is amazing what women will tolerate to have a man in their lives, and to be able to "say" they have a successful marriage...:eek:!!!

In my situation I found that misery loves company, and most of those who encouraged me to stay did it because they were in the same situation. Many pastors/leaders do not want to discuss it because they are beating their wives, [I personally know of two pastors who beat their wives, and are unfaithful but stand in their pulpits proclaiming how they value their wives, etc...:o]. One wife would come to church with sunglasses on to cover the black eyes...:o]...however some would justify this.

Will these men be able to stand before the Lord and be excused?

[Lady Ashanti]

Please excuse my typos....:hug:

[Lady Ashanti]

PASCH a ministry to the abused used to have this awesome picture on their website. It was a women cowering covering her child. The abuser was screaming with his hand held high with a fist. Jesus was in between them with his hand up in a STOP motion as he was protecting the woman and child. That picture made me cry, because that is the Jesus I see. What I don't see is the church along side of Jesus, because they are to busy telling her to work on herself and pray for the abuser. They feel that is enough, and I do believe it is because they don't have a TRUE picture of what domestic violence IS! I don't know how to erase the ignorance away, and why people wish to view things as WHAT did she do! If we could get the violence to stop - I bet we could heal alot of people. If we could figure WHY does he do this - it would make a huge impact on everyone's lifes!

I remember one of the first sermon's I heard a pastor do was from the Moody Bible Church. Pastor Lewster (spelling?? lol ) mentioned it was a root of rage within them, and unless we find some way of addressing the ROOT the ROOT will remain. To me is the same principal with addicts for example. If they don't learn about what the triggers are that make them use - if they refuse to deal with the past hurts if that is part of it - that root of addiction will remain there. If they can acknowledge this and learn about it they can learn to start that path to healing.

With my own childhood I had to learn it was okay to still LOVE my parents, and face the neglect that happened in my life. It was okay to see and value their gifts, but realize the debits harmed me as well. I remember my father telling me before he died that if I were raised in today's soceity, and he acted the way he did - he knew he would be in jail. Dad faced things, and humbled himself enough to acknowledge this. Not to many people I know are given this gift, and my father gave me a huge present with his words and validation. It brought me leaps and bounds ahead in my healing. I have also accepted that my mother knows as well, but is not strong enough to acknowledge this. I have learned to accept that, and I'm not going to push. She has a choice just as my father did to turn the leaf, and do as God would ask her to do. My father repented, and fully acknowledged things. He made no excuses or hinted of HOW we pushed him to this. My mother gives in different ways, and that is how I know she realizes things as well. I can't tell you how many years it took me to come out of denial, and accept the fact I was neglected. I know everyone in church wouldn't believe it. They were seen in a different light. I learned I had to go somewhere else, because I needed truth and not someone's fantasy. The truth set me free.

Someone was brave enough to place that light of truth in front of me, and realized at the time I was only ready to accept part of it. I was scared to admit all of it. I was shamed to admit all of it. I was told all my life that I was a simpleton, functional illiterate. I needed someone to take care of me, because I was unable to do this myself. Yet I was left alone most of the time to care for everything in their absence. I was afraid to voice this, because the words of 'I wouldn't be proud of that way of thinking' were to often spoken to me as a child. Speaking out meant get ready to be beat up. Told how stupid you were. My folks didn't encourage in the ways most parents would. We accepted there was always a BUT in the sentence. It was like giving us something, and then taking it away. That is to say nothing of the physical abuse that I endured for not following rules to the tee. YET they were the favorite Sunday School teacher, and Deacon within the church. I remember reaching out, and people giggling at me thinking I was being silly. WELL that is what my parents would say also, so I figured maybe they were right.

I was in my late thirties or early forties before I had the courage to accept the past. I think as I viewed others, and how they were not listened to or accepted I realized I couldn't go there. I knew myself well enough that if people took out scriptures to 'point' things out to me - I would fold like a house of cards. I knew they were wrong, but I didn't have the strength to take them on. I wouldn't take the 'looking down their noses at me' part either. I knew that was coming as well - I have seen it. I sought out secular help, but made it clear to them that I was struggling with my faith part as well. They handled one portion, and found resources for me in the other area. :cry: They saved my life. They accepted my faith portion, and sought help in that area for me. I didn't think they would do that, because of all the talk 'don't do secular!' I wondered if they had this same idealogy towards christian. I found out they didn't - they accepted it. I'm thankful God showed me it was okay to go secular, because he knew those people would point me in the right direction for my faith. He knew they had to be the 'safe' kind, and wouldn't throw scripture at me to make me fold. lol I folded to easy due to my own broken nature!

You know what happened when I addressed my root? I grew. I looked back on my life, and remember people walking all over me...I knew WHY! Then I changed! It made sense to me WHY I as afraid to confront, and WHY I was so insecure! My growth allowed security, and my change allowed me to be comfortable to speak out against things I was to afraid to before. I accepted that I did the best I could in the past with the tools I had available. I found new tools, and I accept my past. I'm a new person, and I understand how fear and all the rest can place people in a bad situations they didn't see coming. It may seem like common sense to others, but it is viewed a bit different when you have a different set of lenses on. I was used to being scared, and I thought it was just part of life you lived with. Everyone was going to tell me to hush, and that didnt' know what I was talking about. If I just did things better, and was a better Christian people wouldn't walk on me. I allowed it so it was my fault. Pretty simplistic words compared to what the reality of my world is. I wish it was that easy. lol would be GREAT if it was! :lol:

Victims themselves at times have a hard time accepting they are victims! They don't always see it! They accept there is something WRONG with them, and if they could only be better - things would finally turn around. I did for YEARS! I was to afraid and ashamed to throw out all of it, because I didn't want people to shame me more. That was a constant pattern in my life, and I was living that even as an adult. I still have trouble expressing emotions, and I'm learning NOT to stuff! I still have problems talking when I need help, because I remember the comdeming I felt when I asked as a child. My past froze my emotional growth, and the world expected me to leave that behind now that I'm adult. lol I couldn't even acknowledge it so how was that possible? :D

Some people are brave enough to place it out on the table. People are more accepting and empathic to child abuse than they are domestic violence. People feel its wrong to bully others, but when they are experiencing extreme emotional and verbal abuse with marriage they are told to take on the chin. We have alot of double standards! When I see people speak about bad relationships, and they haven't married - dang I rush to tell them to get the heck out of dodge! You know why? LOL They aren't going to told that once they marry! They are going to be told to learn to tolerate it, because they made their beds. Its scary! If they treat you like dirt - make sure they know you love them. You know what does? It gives the abuser the greenlight to continue. I think abusers relish in the advice victims get in the church. lol why wouldn't they? They are given no incentive to change - their spouse IS! LOL AND that is what they have been saying ALL ALONG! :B

This wasn't a bashing on my parents. I still love them! I know they love me. I just learned to accept what happened, and moved past it. Kids want to love their parents - even when they are abusive. They struggle with the bad stuff tho. I know that from experience, and it doesn't help them when they see their mom told to change so he can change. Jesus took on sin head on, and I have to wonder when the day is coming that we all that courage! I want it BAD! :pray:

Thank you for sharing this...I am sure it will help many, even if they never tell you so.

Be blessed...:hug:

[Lady Ashanti]

I found a video recently about this subject as well. When Submission is misued. (http://rbc.gospelcom.net/flashplayer/index.php?http://rbcorg.flashsvc.vitalstreamcdn.com/rbcorg_vitalstream_com/_definst_/dod/programs/2050.flv) They interviewed authors, biblical scholars, victims, etc. It was telling to me that the women in the interview mentioned that it took many people telling her that she was being abused before she was able to believe it. For the most part he was told to do better by him. The part that blew my mind was a story about the 'leave and cleave'. Her husband was using scripture stating that she is speaking and dealing with her family to much, and isn't doing this properly. She moved and cut the contact to almost nothing, and he told her it still wasn't good enough .... the emotional part was still there. :o

They have a couple that decided as part of their ministry they were going to work with the local domestic violence shelters. They were asking for an interview, and they mentioned the first thing the shelters asked of them what, "What are your views on headship?" The headship dicussion was quite telling for them, and how it had been used to show how they must put up with the abuse - how you are to do whatever your husband asked of you, etc. How the presented as authority, and everything must be his way - and not one of protection and service. It was warped, and how it can be used in ways that God didn't intend. :cry:

There was another one that I watched that spoke about a pastor and his wife - how he turned from his abusive nature. How it wasn't as simple as forgiveness from his wife, but how it took years for him years to show the geniune repentance...and he know ministers to other men. His wife wrote a book about this. He was very upfront about some of the issues we spoke about here, and it was heart warming.

Watching both of these it shows to me how most women don't even realize they are in a bad situation. They tend to stick up for the husbands, and blame themselves in order to keep the peace. It wasn't until those that stopped and looked actually saw what was going on tried to pry her out of denial. On the outside everything looked fine, and it took a while to bring her out of denial in order for her to help herself. :hmm:

Thank you so much for this video...it is so informative!

You know what the strange thing is? That so many abused Christian women are treated as though they came in the marriage with an inbreed agenda to manipulate, control, and be rebellious toward their husbands, and that somehow he has to "beat" this out of her.

I love it that the narrator speaks of the bride's hopes when she gets married, and how that is destroyed by abuse. It is sad when she finds no understanding among her sisters in the church.

We, as Christians, have to look at the foundations which are taught that perpetuate an environment in marriage that is condusive to abuse. There are some "myths" that have been taught in the church which lay a false foundation on which some marriages are built on...

We must look at the divine structure of marriage, why was marriage designed? We have to re-examine this because any time you are building something, if the foundation is flawed, the whole structure will eventually crumble. There are many ways that the foundation of marriage can be faulty, and I will look at some of these throughout this book, but right now I just want to look at what we have been taught in the church that causes the foundation to be flawed.

We have been taught, [directly, or indirectly, it doesn’t matter], that the role of the husband is to [I]dominate[/I] his wife. We have been taught that the wife has a [I]natural[/I] proclivity to try to [I]rule [/I]her husband. We have been taught that they are to [I]both “[/I]leave father and mother[I]” [/I]in order to “cleave” to one another[I]. [/I]We have been taught that the woman caused the [I]fall [/I]of mankind by eating the fruit. And we have been taught that [I]only [/I]the wife has to submit. Saints, none of these [I]myths [/I]are completely accurate!

Now, the reason it is important to [I]break up [/I]this false foundation because it causes the couple, [especially the man], to enter into a marriage on shaky ground, guarded, without complete trust in one another other. If he believes these teachings, he will enter the marriage [I]warring [/I]against his wife. He will not [I]respect[/I] her judgment, therefore ignoring her opinions, and advice. He will feel he is the [I]only[/I] one she is to get counsel from, while thinking that adhering to her [I]warnings[/I] is allowing her to [I]control [/I]him, and to set him up for a fall. He will value the advice from all others regarding his decisions in life, while not consulting with the [I]one [/I]he is sharing his life with. This is a trick of the enemy!!! Also, many wives have been abused in the name of submission.

Since we all agree that Jesus came to deliver us from the curse of the law…Galatians 3: 13, and to bring us back into our [I]original [/I]intent in God, then we must look at the Lord’s original intent in Genesis 1: 27-31.

In the beginning, the Lord told the man and the woman; to be [I]fruitful[/I], to [I]multiply[/I], to [I]subdue[/I], and gave the man, and the woman [I]dominion[/I], and said it was [I]very good. [/I]They were equal in their positions…[I]in the beginning, [/I]and this basis is what makes the other teachings invalid in dealing with Christian marriages.


[CENTER][B][FONT=Book Antiqua]Correcting Myths[/FONT][/B][/CENTER]

Let’s break these [I]teachings [/I]down and look at each one individually:

1-the woman caused the [I]fall [/I]of mankind by eating the fruit…
2-the husband is to [I]dominate[/I] the wife...
3-the wife has a [I]natural[/I] proclivity to try to [I]rule [/I]her husband…
4[I]-[/I]they are to both [I]“leave father and mother” …[/I]
5-we have been taught that [I]only [/I]the wife has to submit…
6-the Lord will give you a mate when you no longer [I]need[/I] one…

[FONT=Book Antiqua]“[I]The woman caused the fall of mankind by eating the fruit[/I]”…[/FONT]first of all, the Lord never gave the commandment not to [I]eat of the tree of good and evil [/I]to the woman, He gave it to the man [I]before [/I]the woman was created…Genesis 2: 15-18. In verse 16, the Lord commanded [I]the man[/I], and afterwards He said it was not good that man should be alone.

The woman was nowhere around when the commandment was given. Also, nowhere in scripture does the Lord attribute the fall of mankind to Eve, only to Adam…Romans 5: 12, 18-19, and I Corinthians 15: 21-22. Scripture teaches that Eve was deceived…I Timothy 2: 14, but Adam disobeyed…Romans 5: 19. So Eve has gotten a “bad rap” for generations.
[B] [/B]
[FONT=Book Antiqua]“[I]The husband is to [U]dominate[/U] the wife”…[/I][/FONT] Now in order to completely understand this scripture…Genesis 3: 16, we must look at the [I]original meaning [/I]of the word “rule”. The Hebrew word [U]rule[/U] means [I]to govern- [to direct, influence, guide], to lead[/I], but it also means [I]to shepherd, to be first in rank[/I].

The husband is to be a servant-leader, as well as, the first in rank, in the marriage. His role is one of governing, guiding, directing, having influence, and shepherding his wife, and family. There is nothing in these definition that suggests domination. And for the [I]privilege [/I]of leadership comes responsibility, which we will see in I Corinthians.

In order to fully understand this scripture, we have to couple Genesis 3: 16 with I Corinthians 11: 4-6…where we are told the man is the “head“, of the woman, and her “covering”. Now, we have taken this word “[U]head[/U]” to mean leadership, but that is not quite accurate in this scripture. The actual definition in the Greek means “[I]the part most readily taken hold of, or seized as in battle[/I]”. This word actually means [I]first line of defense[/I].

Then the word “[U]covering[/U]” in this scripture means “[I]to wholly/completely cover, conceal, protect, or hide…to be covered daily by relationship or joining[/I]“. The Lord has ordained for women to have a natural male covering in this earth realm, to symbolize the [I]covering [/I]authority set up by God. But remember the word “covering” also means to hide, [as a shield]. So part of the husband’s [I]covering[/I] is to protect her, as well as, to govern, and shepherd her.

These scriptures have nothing to do with husbands dominating their wives, or wives being so incompetent that they shouldn’t have any involvement in the making of decisions in a marriage. They were [I]both [/I]created to dominate, but [I]not [/I]each other.

[I][FONT=Book Antiqua]“The wife has a [U]natural proclivity [/U]to try to rule her husband”… [/FONT][/I]This is the most damaging “myth” as I see it, because it causes division. Genesis 3:16 doesn’t appear to say this at all, and even in a stretch, I couldn’t see how anyone came to believe that this scripture is saying that a woman would [I]desire[/I] to rule men, or her husband.

Also, when I looked up the original interpretation, the definition was completely different from what I had been taught, so at first, I couldn’t figure out where it came from. Then I heard something on the radio that helped me see the confusion.

A pastor was quoting Genesis 3: 16, and he translated the definition of the word [I]desire[/I] from the [B]Arabic[/B], when it is not from that language, but should be translated from the Hebrew/Chaldean!!! [COLOR=red][/COLOR]

The Hebrew word [I]desire [/I]in Genesis 3:16 means “[I]to long, to crave, to stretch out after, to delight in”[/I], [which is also similar to the definition for worship], but it also means [B][I]to choose[/I][/B]. The Lord said a wife’s [U]desire[/U], [longing, craving, stretching out for, [I]choosing[/I]], will be for her husband, in a sense, her “worship” will be for her husband. This is why Paul could tell wives in Ephesians 5: 22, submit as unto the Lord, and in I Peter 3: 6...calling him lord. According to God, a wife’s desire toward her husband should be [I]second[/I] only to her worship of Him.

[FONT=Book Antiqua][B]“They are to [U]both[/U] leave father and mother” …[/B][/FONT]This is not what the scripture teaches. Genesis 2: 24 reads…“Therefore shall a [I]man[/I] leave [I]his [/I]father, and mother, and be joined to [I]his wife[/I], and they two shall become one flesh. [Also in Matthew 19: 5, and Mark 10: 7-8]. First of all, the scripture is gender specific, [the references to “man”, and “his”], and we know this because a woman cannot have a [I]wife, [/I]she [I]is [/I]the wife.

The purpose of this separation is [I]loyalty[/I], the man cannot have anyone over him any longer except the Lord, [I Corinthians 11: 3], so he can [I]properly[/I] lead his family. Also, the [I]wife [/I]has to be able to take her proper place in her [I]own[/I] family, and with her [I]own[/I] children, [because of the wife’s [I]desire[/I] [I]for her husband [/I]according to Genesis 3: 16, generally there is not a problem with her loyalties to her immediate family].

How many have disobeyed this scripture? How many times do we have mothers running their son’s household, and husbands putting their mother, and her advice before that of their wives? How many times have wives [I]separated [/I]from their parents, while the husband has incorporated their mother into the marriage. Out of order…people…poor foundation, which will crumble.
[I] [/I]
[FONT=Book Antiqua]“We have been taught that [I]only [/I]the wife has to submit” … [/FONT]Scripture teaches that ultimately the husband does make the final decisions in the family, and if the wife disagrees then her stance should be one of submission. Scripture also teaches that we are to “[I]submit one to another”[/I]…Ephesians 5: 21.

We should also understand what the definition of submission is, it means [I]to yield[/I]. [I]S[/I]ubmitting does [I]not[/I] mean that one cannot voice an opposing, or different opinion in a situation. It means in the case of [I]varying[/I] views, one person yields to the authority of another, allowing his view to prevail, without conflict. Also, no one can [I]force [/I]another person to submit[I], [/I]because then it is not submission, but oppression. Submission is voluntary…and should be equally shared. No one is absolutely correct all the time, and this is where humility comes into place in a marriage.

[FONT=Book Antiqua]“The Lord will give you a mate when you no longer [I]need [/I]one“… [/FONT]Now, why would the Lord do that? Why would the Lord give you anything you do not [I]need[/I], especially a human being? How do we “handle” things we feel we do not need? To my knowledge, we do not [I]value[/I] anything we do not feel we need, at the very least; we neglect it, [or them]. So we are taught that the Lord will put someone in a lifelong relationship with a person that they feel they do not need anyway. Hmmm…

In Genesis 2: 18, when the Lord said [I]it is not good for man to be alone[/I], Adam was perfectly made, [a living soul], he was complete within himself, [the Lord took the woman out of Adam], and he had perfect fellowship with God, [everyday the Lord would walk with him in the cool of the day], and [I]still[/I] the Lord felt Adam [B][I]needed[/I][/B] a mate, someone outside of himself, and apart from the Lord Himself, to companion with.

Scripture teaches that “woman was made for man”…I Corinthians 11: 9, and in I Timothy 2: 15, it teaches that the woman shall be saved “through childbearing”. Then why is it that women are thought of as unspiritual if they desire marriage, and children? In the Old Testament, when women desired marriage, and family, the Lord didn’t rebuke them as unspiritual, but granted their request.
[COLOR=red] [/COLOR]
In Philippians 4: 9 reads…“God shall supply all your [I]needs“[/I]…, He supplies needs, saints!

Although Jesus said in Matthew 5: 20 that our righteousness had to exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, we totally disregard their views on certain topics, [such as marriage], and lean more toward the beliefs of[I] other religions, [/I]and[I] society, [/I]in relation to Christian marriages. Marriage is a natural manifestation of a spiritual union, which is to represent Christ, and His church in this earth realm.
[COLOR=red] [/COLOR]
Now, this is not an attempt to debate the beliefs of anyone’s doctrine, leader, or the Lord’s Divine order. I just want to destroy some of the [I]myths[/I] that keep the people of the Lord from becoming one in a union that is to represent the [I]“face of God[/I]” in this earth realm. Now, that we have cleared the area, let’s build an appropriate foundation.

[Lady Ashanti]

Original Intent

According to the Jewish people, marriage is considered the ideal state for men, and women, so why is it that we, Christians, seem to think we have reached some supreme plateau of spirituality when we don’t desire marriage??? [More on this in Lesson Two].

Marriage was designed to represent Christ’s relationship with the church. Christ is considered Savior, and our husband, also…Isaiah 54: 5, Matthew 19: 5. The church is considered the Body of Christ…I Corinthians 12: 12-27, as well as the Bride of Christ…Revelations 19: 7; 21: 9; 22: 17. This coincides with Ephesians 5: 32, where Paul is talking about marriage, then in the middle of his speaking, he refers to the church, and Christ. He saw Christ and the church, as he was speaking of how a godly marriage should be!

Even the references to the Holy Ghost are a picture of marriage. Jesus said that the Holy Ghost would be with us…John 14: 17, and John 20: 22, and in us…John 14: 17, and Acts 2: 1-4. When we get engaged, [or betrothed], our beloved is with us, then once we marry, our beloved is in us as referenced by Genesis 2: 24...and the two shall become one flesh.

In Genesis 1: 26-28, 2: 18,21, 24...we find the purpose of marriage:

Be fruitful…the Lord intended for couple to be fruitful, this deals with what is produced on the outside as a result of the union. The definition for “fruitful” is “producing results, profitable, conducive to productiveness. In the original language it means to “bring forth, to bear, cause to grow, increase, make”.

Fruit should be the result of the union for the purpose of producing results in this earth realm for the One who created them. This first word deals with populating outside of themselves. Pouring out into the earth not only children, but righteousness, faith, love, God‘s qualities.

Multiply…the Lord intended for the couple to multiply! The definition for “multiply” is “reproduce, to grow, to cause to increase in number, quantity, or extent, extend-to spread out to full length, to increase the duration of, to broaden in scope, range, or meaning, to continue, to cover an area. In the original language it means to “bring in, enlarge, excel, grow up, nourish, store”.

This deal with the environment withinthe union, which should be one of righteousness, of love, of maturity, of nourishment from within. There should be so much of the face of God in this union that it pushes out from within and enlarges the territory of the couple.

Fill the earth…the Lord intended for the couple to fill the earth! The definition of “fill” is “to occupy the whole capacity, or extent of; to supply, or make up whatever is required; to fulfill, or supply the requirements of satisfactorily; to hold, or occupy as a position, or office; To spread over, or throughout; to insert to make something complete. In the original language it means to “accomplish, confirm, become set, have wholly”.

The coming together of this couple as one should complete something for God within their particular area in this earth. They should be supplying a requirement for God in this earth realm. They should “occupy…Luke 19:3” until He comes! Each couple should make their particular arena complete; take it wholly, and completely.

This is why I say our churches are in trouble because our homes are in trouble. If each couple was operating correctly, and then we came together as a whole congregation, how much power would that be!

Subdue it…the Lord intended for the couple to subdue the earth! The definition of “subdue” is “to bring under control, overcome by persuasion; to bring into subjection, conquer, vanquish; to reduce the intensity, strength, or force of”. In the original language it means to “to tread down, to disregard, bring into bondage, keep under, bring into subjection”.

We are talking about demonic forces here, saints, the enemy, and his cohorts who are attempting to take over. Yes, Adam gave him authority, but we are here in Christ to take it back!!! Scripture teaches that one shall chase a thousand, and two shall put ten thousands to flight…Deuteronomy 32: 30. Also, Jesus said, “Again, I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done by My Father in Heaven”, and what better two that those that are ordained to be ONE in God!!!

Scripture teaches that we are to pull down strongholds…II Corinthians 10: 4, bind things on earth…Matthew 16: 19, put things under our feet in Christ, and bring them into subjection as the Body of Christ…I Corinthians 15: 25-28. We are to have no respect of persons…Colossians 3: 25, because we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but principalities, powers, the rulers of darkness of this age, and spiritual hosts of wickedness in high places…Ephesians 6: 12, isn’t personal, Saints, it‘s spiritual]! This is how mighty each married couple should be! This is also why they must be comparable!

Have dominion…the Lord intended for the couple to have dominion in the earth. The definition of “dominion” is “the power, or right to rule, right of ownership, influence”. In the original language it means to reign, to rule, to have control”.

When we are in a non-Christian environment, we are in charge! When you walk into a room, office, building, meeting, etc. YOU are in charge! Now you may have to humble yourself if you are not physically in charge, but even in that situation, you rule in the spirit realm. If you go into the spirit realm, you can change the atmosphere, and the outcome.

Even if you are in a spiritual situation where your spiritual “rank” is superior to those who are in charge, [even if they refuse to recognize this], you still have your authority in the spirit realm. You just have to step into it, respectfully, but by all means, step into it. The Lord has a Divine order and it is in the spirit realm, in His Kingdom. You have the God-given right to take dominion over anything that is not like God, according to His Word! The Lord intended for His couples to take dominion over the unfruitful works of darkness.

It is not good for man to be alone…The only time the Lord said something was not good was when man was alone! “Alone” means “unaccompanied, solely, to allow to be by himself, to be unique, or without an equal, nothing else of a similar kind is near”, [this is why you can be with someone and still be alone]. In the original language it means to be “solitary, separation, only, apart”.

Marriage is one of the main relationships that the Lord instituted to keep mankind from being alone, but having people in your life, even in marriage, does not guarantee that you will not be alone. Loneliness comes from not having people in your life not similar, or equal to you. Have you ever felt alone in a crowd, or in a marriage? The marriage union was to be God’s ultimate means of curing the loneliness of mankind, becoming one with another person of the opposite sex. In order for that to happen, the two has to be comparable! Which leads us to the next definition…

I will make a helpmeet comparable for him…the Lord intended for the couple to comparable. The definition of “comparable” means to be parallel, liken to, analogous [similar in function although dissimilar in structure] in quality and character, capable of being compared, to be worthy of comparison, to match. In the original language it means aid, relief, assistance, protect, surround, help. Structure meaning “the organized combination of parts, or elements”.

A man’s “helpmeet” should be someone who is “similar in function although not the same in structure”. She should be someone who is “like him” in spiritual, mental, and intellectual strength, capable of protecting his vulnerable areas, while not being like him physically.

The function of a woman is different from a man, and although she is to protect him, also, the protection she gives is different. Although she is to “provide” also, the provisions she gives is different. This is why the myth that causes a man not to trust his wife’s opinions, and warnings are so damaging to a marriage because then he takes himself out of her area of protection and that leaves him very vulnerable in those specific arenas.

Become one flesh… In order for two people to become “one flesh” there has to be some serious intimacy, [and I am not talking about sex at this point], and intimacy requires trust. “One” means united, alike, altogether, first, only. “Flesh” means body, person, kind, self, skin, and “pudenda of a man”.

The Lord intended for the couple to be “one flesh”, putting each other first, [after Him of course], united in purpose, and destiny. Loyal in their devotion to one another, being the only marriage partner to, and for one another. Operating as though they were one body, one self, one person…that is deep!

Satisfy our sexual passions… The Lord intended that in marriage, our sexual passions were to be fulfilled, satisfied. Now, there are some religious people who do not believe this, and think that sex was only intended as a means of procreation. Then there are others who think that sex is a result of the sin nature, so it is not to be enjoyed. Thank the Lord that they are both wrong…Uh, Oh…excuse me…[smile]…let’s look at the scriptures…

In I Corinthians 7: 9, it reads…it is better to marry than to burn. So, according to scripture, the answer to lust, or sexual desires is to get married. I have yet to find a scripture that says we can pray, fast, or speak in tongues, and these desires will go away, the Bible says marriage is the answer.

This is further supported by I Corinthians 7: 5, which reads…Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to prayer and fasting; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. So even for the sake of prayer, and fasting, couples are not to put off making love for too long because it will cause an occasion for temptation.

Then if you look at one of the definitions of “one flesh”, it is “pudenda of a man”, this word pudenda actually means “human external genital organs especially of a woman”. So when the Lord speaks of the couple becoming “one flesh”, He was also speaking of the act of making love, or having sex.

So these are the Lord’s original intention for marriage, and if you notice none of the reasons we use today are on the list. Not for money; or because your children need a father, [or mother]; or to further your ministry; or because you are getting too old, and your family thinks you should marry; or because she’s pregnant; or anything else that is not in God’s plan.

Marriage was intended to reflect the image of God, Christ and His church, and abuse, [abnormal use], distorts that image and makes it reflect Satan, [ask me how I know]. This is what happens when you submit to someone who is “wrong”, [and I am not just speaking of a “few bad decisions”, see Lesson Eleven].

We have many divorces today, in and out of the church, because of the agenda’s of people that are not in accordance with the agenda of the Lord. Scripture reads… “what God has joined together let not man put asunder”…Matthew 19:6, and the real question is did God join this couple??? Personally, I believe that if God joined the couple together, they would not be able to divorce, but I will deal with that in Lesson Ten.

Sisters, I have learned that if I can’t have it God’s way, I don’t want it at all!

[hdt]

You know what the strange thing is? That so many abused Christian women are treated as though they came in the marriage with an inbreed agenda to manipulate, control, and be rebellious toward their husbands, and that somehow he has to "beat" this out of her.

I love it that the narrator speaks of the bride's hopes when she gets married, and how that is destroyed by abuse. It is sad when she finds no understanding among her sisters in the church.



That's the part that confusing me the most. You almost have to walk on eggshells if you look for help. You have to watch the way you approach, how you say it, tone, etc. I see others with no toleration of frustration and confusion. You must next to saintly at times before they will listen to anything. There are way to many hoops to jump past in order to get people to truly listen. We need to slam you with all the sins we see real or imagined for yourself - and then we will move on maybe his behavior isn't the best BUT...

You go back home even more wounded, frustrated and lost than you were before. People do make to make to many assumptions at times, and I don't think they realize how damaging that can be. I don't know if it is to much benefit of the doubt, not understanding that people can geniuely act this way...or what it is. :cry:

[hdt]

“The woman caused the fall of mankind by eating the fruit”…first of all, the Lord never gave the commandment not to eat of the tree of good and evil to the woman, He gave it to the man before the woman was created…Genesis 2: 15-18. In verse 16, the Lord commanded the man, and afterwards He said it was not good that man should be alone.

The woman was nowhere around when the commandment was given. Also, nowhere in scripture does the Lord attribute the fall of mankind to Eve, only to Adam…Romans 5: 12, 18-19, and I Corinthians 15: 21-22. Scripture teaches that Eve was deceived…I Timothy 2: 14, but Adam disobeyed…Romans 5: 19. So Eve has gotten a “bad rap” for generations.



I have heard alot of times in which women are easily deceived, and they take that from what happened in the garden. What happened when Adam was confronted about the apple eating? He lied and tried to blame someone else. Does that automatically place most men in that catagorey? NOT from where I sit! Does that mean since he ate is as well he easily goes along with deception? I don't think that is true either. There was an equal action on Adam's part that is not spoke about as much as Eve's, and at times I think it is used as a divertion NOT to deal with things. Most people I know don't go down that road, but I have seen some that did. It does confuse me as to way they don't take the other portion in account if they are looking that closely. :hmm:

[Lady Ashanti]

That's the part that confusing me the most. You almost have to walk on eggshells if you look for help. You have to watch the way you approach, how you say it, tone, etc. I see others with no toleration of frustration and confusion. You must next to saintly at times before they will listen to anything. There are way to many hoops to jump past in order to get people to truly listen. We need to slam you with all the sins we see real or imagined for yourself - and then we will move on maybe his behavior isn't the best BUT...

You go back home even more wounded, frustrated and lost than you were before. People do make to make to many assumptions at times, and I don't think they realize how damaging that can be. I don't know if it is to much benefit of the doubt, not understanding that people can geniuely act this way...or what it is. :cry:

I understand that...it is just assumed that every woman is rebellious toward her husband and that is not true. Some women make those assumptions because of what is, [or was], inside of them.

Usually an abusive man deso not choose a "strong" woman, he is depending on her gentle spirit to be able to act out his abuse.

Amazing because "the church" taught me how to tolerate abuse under the guise of submission, [I never did before], if a man had any type of hurtful, [or violent], behavior I got far away from him.

[Lady Ashanti]

I have heard alot of times in which women are easily deceived, and they take that from what happened in the garden. What happened when Adam was confronted about the apple eating? He lied and tried to blame someone else. Does that automatically place most men in that catagorey? NOT from where I sit! Does that mean since he ate is as well he easily goes along with deception? I don't think that is true either. There was an equal action on Adam's part that is not spoke about as much as Eve's, and at times I think it is used as a divertion NOT to deal with things. Most people I know don't go down that road, but I have seen some that did. It does confuse me as to way they don't take the other portion in account if they are looking that closely. :hmm:

Yes, and they overlook the accounts of where the man was told to listen to his wife, [Sarah and Abraham], and other accounts where women had to take a leradership position, [Deborah as a judge], and where the wisdom of women saved her people, [Abigail, and Esther].

Or where men choosing to sin caused mass destruction...too many to name...:cry:!

God is balanced, and no one gender has a monopoly on sin, deception, or poor choices.

[Lady Ashanti]

12 Reasons Why Couples Counseling is Not Recommended When Domestic Violence is Present (http://www.peaceandsafety.com/articles/55)

By Dr. Chris Huffine


Focusing on the relationship assumes that each person contributes to the abusive behavior, when in truth the perpetrator is solely responsible for his abusive behavior.
Focusing on issues other than the abusive behavior allows the abusive behavior to continue.
Danger to the victim may increase due to the counselor’s involvement in the relationship. Because the batterer’s goal is to maintain control of the relationship, any interference on the counselor’s part may lead to an increase in his controlling behavior. The therapist may unwittingly elicit information or initiate interventions that escalate abuse.
Blaming the victim. When abusive behavior is identified, the victim may be asked, “What was your part in this?” Alternatively, the batterer may use comments and observations of the couples’ counselor to justify his abusive behavior (e.g., “Remember, he said how your refusal to answer my questions only makes things worse!”). Many victims already tend to blame themselves; the counselor may unwittingly encourage this.
Out of fear of further abuse, the victim may not be honest about the abuse or other issues in the couples’ session, giving the false impression that things are better than they really are.
On the other hand, the victim may have a false sense of security and safety in the couples’ session. This may lead her to disclose information she normally wouldn’t at home, believing that the therapist will keep her safe. Once they have left the safety of the counseling room, he may then retaliate with more abuse.
In couples counseling, if the therapist focuses extensively on the abuse, the batterer may feel shamed, scape-goated, and to blame for every problem in the relationship. In a batterer intervention group, while he is held accountable for his abuse, he is not blamed for every problem in the relationship. Couples counseling may discourage the level of disclosure that is possible in a group.
Before other issues in the relationship can be effectively addressed, the abusive behavior must end. Abusive behavior tends to distract attention away from other issues, like a smoke screen. This is akin to couples counseling where one or both parties are active alcoholics; until they are sober, such interventions have little effectiveness. Similarly, until the abuse has stopped, other interventions have limited effectiveness.
It colludes with the batterer’s denial. It allows him to continue to blame her and/or the relationship for his abusive behavior. He can then take advantage of the couples’ sessions to further his agenda of control and power over her.
Often in couples counseling there is no assessment for violence. If an assessment is done with both people present, the potential for honest disclosure will be undermined.
A couples counselor who is focused on the relationship may be hesitant to strongly confront just one of the individuals, concerned this will be viewed as favoritism. Such failure to directly confront the abuse contributes to minimization and denial.
Couples counseling can keep a victim in the abusive relationship longer than she would otherwise stay, in the false hope that the counseling may make things better. Some forms of couples counseling require couples to make a time commitment (e.g., 3–6 months) of not separating while in the counseling, which may prolong an abusive relationship.
Dr. Huffine is a licensed clinical psychologist who has worked for over 16 years in the domestic violence field. He is the clinical director of Allies in Change Counseling Center (http://www.alliesinchange.org/), which offers counseling for anger/domestic violence issues for men and women. He and his staff can be reached by email (allies@alliesinchange.org?subject=Contact from PASCH website).

[cnw]

this is from the family life radio broadcast. It is done by Denis Rainy and Bob lapin. It is from 3 shows that week. It is worth listening too.
http://www.familylife.com/site/apps/nlnet/content3.aspx?c=dnJHKLNnFoG&b=3789887&ct=6020463 (http://www.familylife.com/site/apps/nlnet/content3.aspx?c=dnJHKLNnFoG&b=3789887&ct=6020463)

[hdt]

On the other hand, the victim may have a false sense of security and safety in the couples’ session. This may lead her to disclose information she normally wouldn’t at home, believing that the therapist will keep her safe. Once they have left the safety of the counseling room, he may then retaliate with more abuse.


I think that is one item that people seem to forget about even when they ask for them to approach their spouse with things they mentioned as well. "Gently and with love" you are to approach - which of course makes a whole lot of sense in most cases! You can't always do that even if a spouse that has never HIT, but can be extremely emotionally and verbally abusive. Its almost as when you raise their anxeity levels at all they turn on you or others. Alot of times its better to have a safe place she can go to while others approach him.

I think alot of people don't realize that hitting isn't the only form of domestic violence. Extreme neglect when they are ill for example is another form. A lady I know got food poisoning, and was so weak in the bathroom that when she called to help he refused. When she asked for him to call for help (ambulance, doctor, etc.) he told her she just needed to ride it out. She physically couldn't go to the phone because of the severe condition, and hours lately he finally relented and called the doctor. TOld her she had to take a shower if he was taking her anywhere that night. As she was in the shower the doctor called, and he mininize her condition. "Does she have severe stomach pains?" "I don't think so." When she crawled out of the shower, and layed on the floor he handed her ice chips. He told her the doctor mentioned that all she would need. He left her there again. She was found the next day by a family member that came to visit when they heard about her 'stomach bug', and brought her to the hospital. She did survive, and he told her she didn't make her situation clear enough for him. THAT is also physical abuse.

There is alot of shame around these types of events, and a feeling of helplessness. Those are the types of things you rarely hear about.

[Lady Ashanti]

I think that is one item that people seem to forget about even when they ask for them to approach their spouse with things they mentioned as well. "Gently and with love" you are to approach - which of course makes a whole lot of sense in most cases! You can't always do that even if a spouse that has never HIT, but can be extremely emotionally and verbally abusive. Its almost as when you raise their anxeity levels at all they turn on you or others. Alot of times its better to have a safe place she can go to while others approach him.

I think alot of people don't realize that hitting isn't the only form of domestic violence. Extreme neglect when they are ill for example is another form. A lady I know got food poisoning, and was so weak in the bathroom that when she called to help he refused. When she asked for him to call for help (ambulance, doctor, etc.) he told her she just needed to ride it out. She physically couldn't go to the phone because of the severe condition, and hours lately he finally relented and called the doctor. TOld her she had to take a shower if he was taking her anywhere that night. As she was in the shower the doctor called, and he mininize her condition. "Does she have severe stomach pains?" "I don't think so." When she crawled out of the shower, and layed on the floor he handed her ice chips. He told her the doctor mentioned that all she would need. He left her there again. She was found the next day by a family member that came to visit when they heard about her 'stomach bug', and brought her to the hospital. She did survive, and he told her she didn't make her situation clear enough for him. THAT is also physical abuse.

There is alot of shame around these types of events, and a feeling of helplessness. Those are the types of things you rarely hear about.

I just wish some people would realize that an abusive man does not have love, or compassion in him, [God is love, and if there is no love then there is no God], and really has an issue with women. they are totally selfish, and cannot even see the needs of her because she has no value to him. Her "acceptance" of his behavior does no change him, it only validates his position to continue into further abuse.

This is why many abused wives usually end up dead., [then they move on to the next victim], if the Lord does not intervene and gets her out of harm's way...

A prudent person foresees danger and takes precautions. The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. –Proverbs 22:3

[carissadawn]

don't have time for much except that this thread should really be about women, not about abusive husbands. We will end up husband bashing and that is contradictory to Gods word. More later.
and God never gave women a right to divorce. The Greek says if a woman shall leave the husband and if a man shall divorce. Never does it say a woman can divorce.
The Bible also says don't leave the unsaved as by our conversation the husband may be saved. I am not going to tickle the ears of those who want to read a feel good conversation, but I have gleaned the wisdom of women (many) who have been through the abuse and lived to see their husbands saved, but first they had to change and they also brought other Godly men into the light of their husbands character. This is part of it.
man I wish I had more time, you know -holiday family and chaos. lol


I would like to know if you, personally, ever had to ake the choice of staying or not staying in an abusive relationship. I had to testify against my children's father at 7 months pregnant after he raped me and beat me up (for the umpteenth time-NOTHING was changing.) I almost lost the baby, and I was in danger of losing my children to CPS if someone had reported the abuse. I will never regret for a second leaving him. Thank goodness my children don't have to remember things like his happening when they were growing up.

[kayte]

I would like to know if you, personally, ever had to ake the choice of staying or not staying in an abusive relationship. I had to testify against my children's father at 7 months pregnant after he raped me and beat me up (for the umpteenth time-NOTHING was changing.) I almost lost the baby, and I was in danger of losing my children to CPS if someone had reported the abuse. I will never regret for a second leaving him. Thank goodness my children don't have to remember things like his happening when they were growing up.

I just want to say that I am so glad that you left that situation and that you and your children are safe from him.

My husband is not in any way, shape or form abusive. I can't imagine living with that or why anyone would think anyone else should. I've had several friends that were married to abusive men. One of them, I knew her husband. He was quite 'charming' to those on the outside. He was a deceiver. He not only beat and raped his wife, he abused other women as well. I was one of them.

These men belong in prison. Not being honored as 'head of the family', left in the homes to continue their crimes.

[carissadawn]

I just want to say that I am so glad that you left that situation and that you and your children are safe from him.

My husband is not in any way, shape or form abusive. I can't imagine living with that or why anyone would think anyone else should. I've had several friends that were married to abusive men. One of them, I knew her husband. He was quite 'charming' to those on the outside. He was a deceiver. He not only beat and raped his wife, he abused other women as well. I was one of them.

These men belong in prison. Not being honored as 'head of the family', left in the homes to continue their crimes.

Mine was very charming in public as well, and he always came off as "mister dad".

Small hijack: I was so glad to see the lifehouse link in your siggy! We saw this in church last Sunday, the pastor played it at the end of his sermon-it was so moving, and I wasn't sure how to find it so I could watch it at home and show some friends.
/end hijack

[Lady Ashanti]

I would like to know if you, personally, ever had to ake the choice of staying or not staying in an abusive relationship. I had to testify against my children's father at 7 months pregnant after he raped me and beat me up (for the umpteenth time-NOTHING was changing.) I almost lost the baby, and I was in danger of losing my children to CPS if someone had reported the abuse. I will never regret for a second leaving him. Thank goodness my children don't have to remember things like his happening when they were growing up.

Thank you so much for making this point...

It seems that some do not understand how difficult, heartbreaking, and scary it is to have to choose between the man you love, and the children you love. Or how it feels to live in fear, to be damaged, to suffer harm/hurt from the person who is suppose to love you, protect you, and represent God to you. To be afraid when he reaches for you because you do not know if he is going to hit you because no matter what you do...anything can set him off. To look in the mirror at your bruised face, and body...to be raped...to remember to hateful/hurtful words from your husband.

I remember standing in the shower crying one day saying to the Lord..."He make me feel as though you do not love me at all", and I hated the way I looked through his eyes.

After it was all over, I remember walking down the street one day, and the Lord saying to me that I was free!!! Hallelujah!!! I almost ran, and the joy that filled my soul. I was free!!!:pp

I really do not care what others say because I know my God, however I do care that they are still counseling my sisters in Christ to endure such horror...:cry: Sometimes it is because misery loves company, however it is really horrible when those giving the erroneous counsel turn around and go home to a loving husband, and a godly environment leaving that sister to suffer through "whatever". :(

Scripture states that "a bruised reed, He will not break, and a smoking flax, He will not put out"...

Blessings...:hug:

[hdt]

I would like to know if you, personally, ever had to ake the choice of staying or not staying in an abusive relationship. I had to testify against my children's father at 7 months pregnant after he raped me and beat me up (for the umpteenth time-NOTHING was changing.) I almost lost the baby, and I was in danger of losing my children to CPS if someone had reported the abuse. I will never regret for a second leaving him. Thank goodness my children don't have to remember things like his happening when they were growing up.

I'm sorry you had to endure that. I think some people do feel that parties never do much in regards to perservation of family, etc. They look to the negative regarding 'what did you do - your not innocent either' as a way to either guilt or manipulate you into staying. I have seen others quote this one miracle couple they have seen, and try to apply their example to all cases as well. People are custom, and it can't always turn out that way even under the BEST of circumstances! You have others that naively feel its race, economy, neighborhood, certain denominations - goodness the list is endless that this happens to. I'm sure from their own experiences, but they don't open their mind up enough to realize it much more far reaching than that.

The one thing that stuck me this year after reading about the deaths in the war we are still in - they counted the numbers of deaths thus far. We have that number of deaths each year due to domestic violence, and I'm sorry but that was quite telling to me. Those are blown off as 'extreme cases', and it doesn't happen as often as people want them to believe. Its like ... :hmm: ... those were just the deaths! How many others didn't die, never came to court, or haven't surfaced yet? You have stats that show its NOT a issue we can blow off, and yet people do all the time! :cry: Its so strange how people don't realize that no one is getting help that way, and the cycle of violence they hate to hear about (and make excuses for) continues and gets worse. :o Its amazing the excuses I have heard!:(

I'm glad you found the courage to stand up to the evil that others have issues acknowledging the presense of! I'm glad your children didn't have grow up with that. Its hardly a subject to be used to bash anyone. lol to me that is another diversion used to NOT deal with it! ;)

So glad to hear you are safe! Blessings to you and your children, and I will be praying for his healing as well. :pray:

[Lady Ashanti]

I'm sorry you had to endure that. I think some people do feel that parties never do much in regards to perservation of family, etc. They look to the negative regarding 'what did you do - your not innocent either' as a way to either guilt or manipulate you into staying. I have seen others quote this one miracle couple they have seen, and try to apply their example to all cases as well. People are custom, and it can't always turn out that way even under the BEST of circumstances! You have others that naively feel its race, economy, neighborhood, certain denominations - goodness the list is endless that this happens to. I'm sure from their own experiences, but they don't open their mind up enough to realize it much more far reaching than that.

The one thing that stuck me this year after reading about the deaths in the war we are still in - they counted the numbers of deaths thus far. We have that number of deaths each year due to domestic violence, and I'm sorry but that was quite telling to me. Those are blown off as 'extreme cases', and it doesn't happen as often as people want them to believe. Its like ... :hmm: ... those were just the deaths! How many others didn't die, never came to court, or haven't surfaced yet? You have stats that show its NOT a issue we can blow off, and yet people do all the time! :cry: Its so strange how people don't realize that no one is getting help that way, and the cycle of violence they hate to hear about (and make excuses for) continues and gets worse. :o Its amazing the excuses I have heard!:(

I'm glad you found the courage to stand up to the evil that others have issues acknowledging the presense of! I'm glad your children didn't have grow up with that. Its hardly a subject to be used to bash anyone. lol to me that is another diversion used to NOT deal with it! ;)

So glad to hear you are safe! Blessings to you and your children, and I will be praying for his healing as well. :pray:

Hey, Sis...:hug:

Many abused women recieve healing, and deliverance and walk on in the liberty wherein Christ has made them free, [many testimonies on this very site of those who divorced their abuser and have godly marriages now], however it is amazing at the outsiders who are bound to our past...:rofl:.

We have come out of it, however they are still there and want to pull us back into it in order to discredit our ministry...:hmm:...however God is good anyhow, and people are being delivered anyhow...:pp

Scriptures states "shall their unbelief make the truth of God of no effect, God forbid"...Hallelujah!!!:pp

Romans 3:3-4 (New King James Version)

3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? 4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:

“ That You may be justified in Your words,
And may overcome when You are judged.”

Blessings...:hug: