“Hebraic roots” or justification by obedience to the Law?

[ananias]

This post may very well prove to be an exercise in how to make few friends and lots of enemies, but here goes:

“Hebraic roots” or justification by obedience to the Law?

TYPES AND SHADOWS

Paul wrote,

“ALL Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,” (2Tim.3: 16).

But Paul ALSO wrote,

“Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or in respect of a feast, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbaths. For these are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.” (Col.2: 16-17).

Anyone who has been contributing to, and reading threads on Forums like these for any amount of time will have noticed by now that among Christians, there are two extreme reactions to the words “Hebraic roots”.

Very few Christians would deny that there is a great deal of worth in understanding the biblical types and shadows (aka “Hebraic roots”) of the gospel of salvation. For example, understanding that the first cup of wine which was blessed and drunk during the Passover meal which Jesus ate with His disciples, was called the cup of sanctification; and that during the Passover meal, the cup was brought forth with this blessing: "Blessed are You, LORD our GOD, King of the Universe, who creates the fruit of the vine." (It was during the Feast of Passover that Jesus said, "I am the true vine", John 15:1).

The second cup was called the cup of wrath (Luke 22:42-44).

The third cup, which was passed after the meal, was the cup of redemption (Luke 22: 20; 1Corinthians 10: 16), etc.

It is precisely because many Gentile Christians have learned how each and every detail of each and every one of the Feasts and celebrations point to the salvation provided for us by our Savior, that they have learned how these Feasts were celebrated, and have begun to celebrate them WITH ALL THE EMPHASIS BEING ON HOW EACH AND EVERY ASPECT of each and every Feast POINTS TO, AND WAS FULFILLED BY, THEIR SAVIOR.

To a far greater extent than what they would feel drawn especially close to their Savior while sitting in a church pew on, for example, Palm Sunday or Good Friday, such Christians feel drawn especially close to their Lord and Savior through the celebration of these types and shadows.

NOTE: This does not in any way demean the celebration of Palm Sunday or Easter, it’s simply a fact that Christians who choose to thus celebrate the biblical Feasts, feel especially close to their Savior at the times of the biblical feasts or “types and shadows”.

It is important to know and to understand that probably at least 90% of all the Christians who thus celebrate these biblical types and shadows (aka “Hebraic roots”) do not do so because they feel that they MUST AND SHOULD do so, but out of a simple love for their Savior and an understanding of how each and every aspect of these Feasts and celebrations point to, AND WERE FULFILLED BY HIM.


UNFORTUNATELY, THOUGH, a minority of Christians (which although a minority, nevertheless happen to number quite a few thousand in the world) have gone way off-track with these worthwhile observances and celebrations, and assert and insist that these types and shadows MUST AND SHOULD be observed, and that the commandments to observe them were never superseded by the New Covenant once the antitype had come, and the commandments to observe them therefore still fully apply to all Christians.

This has led to the over-reaction of another group of Christians, who have reacted to this heresy by throwing a blanket inscribed with the accusation of Old Testament biblical Law-obedience over any and all Christians who choose to observe and celebrate these biblical types and shadows.

This blanket accusation, however, nevertheless conveniently excludes the observance and celebration of any of the man-introduced festivals and observances, such as Christmas, Easter, Palm Sunday, St. Patrick’s Day, etc, etc, etc.

Some who react to the heretics in this way will even denounce any and all STUDY of these types and shadows as reverting to the Law, not recognizing the fact that there is a great deal of worth in studying the types and shadows which point to our Savior (as Paul wrote, “ALL Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”, 2Tim.3: 16).

This over-reaction in effect binds all Christians by a new type of (a supposed) biblical Law which prohibits the observance of certain celebrations and festivals (the biblical types and shadows, aka “Hebrew roots”), while permitting others (Christmas, Palm Sunday, Good Friday, St, Patrick’s Day, etc, etc).

But who exactly is responsible then, for this lack of unity that has crept in among brothers in Christ, if not those who assert and insist that these types and shadows MUST AND SHOULD be observed, and that the commandments to observe them were never superseded by the New Covenant once the antitype had come, and the commandments to observe them therefore still fully apply to all Christians?

Shouldn’t the lack of unity and misunderstandings brought about among the anti-(so-called) “Hebraic roots” and pro-(so-called) “Hebraic roots” Christians be bridged by the acknowledgment of ALL that those who assert and insist that these types and shadows MUST AND SHOULD be observed are heretics and have no part with the rest of the brothers from both groups?

This may sound extremely harsh, but what would the apostle Paul and the other apostles have said?

Ananias

[Emanate]

This post may very well prove to be an exercise in how to make few friends and lots of enemies, but here goes:

“Hebraic roots” or justification by obedience to the Law?

TYPES AND SHADOWS

Paul wrote,

“ALL Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,” (2Tim.3: 16).

But Paul ALSO wrote,

“Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or in respect of a feast, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbaths. For these are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.” (Col.2: 16-17).

Anyone who has been contributing to, and reading threads on Forums like these for any amount of time will have noticed by now that among Christians, there are two extreme reactions to the words “Hebraic roots”.

Very few Christians would deny that there is a great deal of worth in understanding the biblical types and shadows (aka “Hebraic roots”) of the gospel of salvation. For example, understanding that the first cup of wine which was blessed and drunk during the Passover meal which Jesus ate with His disciples, was called the cup of sanctification; and that during the Passover meal, the cup was brought forth with this blessing: "Blessed are You, LORD our GOD, King of the Universe, who creates the fruit of the vine." (It was during the Feast of Passover that Jesus said, "I am the true vine", John 15:1).

The second cup was called the cup of wrath (Luke 22:42-44).

The third cup, which was passed after the meal, was the cup of redemption (Luke 22: 20; 1Corinthians 10: 16), etc.

It is precisely because many Gentile Christians have learned how each and every detail of each and every one of the Feasts and celebrations point to the salvation provided for us by our Savior, that they have learned how these Feasts were celebrated, and have begun to celebrate them WITH ALL THE EMPHASIS BEING ON HOW EACH AND EVERY ASPECT of each and every Feast POINTS TO, AND WAS FULFILLED BY, THEIR SAVIOR.

To a far greater extent than what they would feel drawn especially close to their Savior while sitting in a church pew on, for example, Palm Sunday or Good Friday, such Christians feel drawn especially close to their Lord and Savior through the celebration of these types and shadows.

NOTE: This does not in any way demean the celebration of Palm Sunday or Easter, it’s simply a fact that Christians who choose to thus celebrate the biblical Feasts, feel especially close to their Savior at the times of the biblical feasts or “types and shadows”.

It is important to know and to understand that probably at least 90% of all the Christians who thus celebrate these biblical types and shadows (aka “Hebraic roots”) do not do so because they feel that they MUST AND SHOULD do so, but out of a simple love for their Savior and an understanding of how each and every aspect of these Feasts and celebrations point to, AND WERE FULFILLED BY HIM.


UNFORTUNATELY, THOUGH, a minority of Christians (which although a minority, nevertheless happen to number quite a few thousand in the world) have gone way off-track with these worthwhile observances and celebrations, and assert and insist that these types and shadows MUST AND SHOULD be observed, and that the commandments to observe them were never superseded by the New Covenant once the antitype had come, and the commandments to observe them therefore still fully apply to all Christians.

This has led to the over-reaction of another group of Christians, who have reacted to this heresy by throwing a blanket inscribed with the accusation of Old Testament biblical Law-obedience over any and all Christians who choose to observe and celebrate these biblical types and shadows.

This blanket accusation, however, nevertheless conveniently excludes the observance and celebration of any of the man-introduced festivals and observances, such as Christmas, Easter, Palm Sunday, St. Patrick’s Day, etc, etc, etc.

Some who react to the heretics in this way will even denounce any and all STUDY of these types and shadows as reverting to the Law, not recognizing the fact that there is a great deal of worth in studying the types and shadows which point to our Savior (as Paul wrote, “ALL Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”, 2Tim.3: 16).

This over-reaction in effect binds all Christians by a new type of (a supposed) biblical Law which prohibits the observance of certain celebrations and festivals (the biblical types and shadows, aka “Hebrew roots”), while permitting others (Christmas, Palm Sunday, Good Friday, St, Patrick’s Day, etc, etc).

But who exactly is responsible then, for this lack of unity that has crept in among brothers in Christ, if not those who assert and insist that these types and shadows MUST AND SHOULD be observed, and that the commandments to observe them were never superseded by the New Covenant once the antitype had come, and the commandments to observe them therefore still fully apply to all Christians?

Shouldn’t the lack of unity and misunderstandings brought about among the anti-(so-called) “Hebraic roots” and pro-(so-called) “Hebraic roots” Christians be bridged by the acknowledgment of ALL that those who assert and insist that these types and shadows MUST AND SHOULD be observed are heretics and have no part with the rest of the brothers from both groups?

This may sound extremely harsh, but what would the apostle Paul and the other apostles have said?

Ananias


True, we are guilty on both sides of the aisle.

May we never lose sight of our Messiah Y'shua who has justified us and may we continually be blessed in his perfect Torah of liberty.

[IPet2_9]

The problem I always had with the Hebrew Roots Movement is that it's placing Christianity's roots in man. Specifically, the Hebrews. Christianity's roots are not in people, or in any of the things coming from people; like a culture, or a language, or a nation. Christianity is rooted in the Great I AM, Yahweh, Iesus, God.

[keck553]

The problem I always had with the Hebrew Roots Movement is that it's placing Christianity's roots in man. Specifically, the Hebrews. Christianity's roots are not in people, or in any of the things coming from people; like a culture, or a language, or a nation. Christianity is rooted in the Great I AM, Yahweh, Iesus, God.

Exactly and since Yeshua is the author and/or divine inspiration of ALL of God's Word, we should look to ALL of God's Word as profitable, holy, and instructive. If walking in the Way God instructed us to appears Jewish, it doesn't make a person a Jew. If walking in the Jewish way, it doesn't make a person Godly.

What's so exceedingling difficult about simply submitting to God and doing what He teaches? Because the effect of the doctries and traditions of men make us feel uneasy and afraid of being labeled?

[Emanate]

The problem I always had with the Hebrew Roots Movement is that it's placing Christianity's roots in man. Specifically, the Hebrews. Christianity's roots are not in people, or in any of the things coming from people; like a culture, or a language, or a nation. Christianity is rooted in the Great I AM, Yahweh, Iesus, God.


Would you be more comfortable with the term "Hebrew Tree Movement"?

Yes, Christianity's roots are, or should have been, planted deeply into the Hebrew culture from whence it sprang, especially since the first mention of "Church" in the bible is in reference to Mt. Sinai. Sure, our roots lead ultimately to YHWH, but let us pause and look how we got to where we are.

[ananias]

The problem I always had with the Hebrew Roots Movement is that it's placing Christianity's roots in man. Specifically, the Hebrews. Christianity's roots are not in people, or in any of the things coming from people; like a culture, or a language, or a nation. Christianity is rooted in the Great I AM, Yahweh, Iesus, God.

It's the definition "Hebrew roots" which is misleading. The biblical types and shadows of our salvation by Jesus are the biblical feasts, new-moon celebrations and Sabbaths. It would be absurd if the observance and celebration of these God-given types and shadows of our salvation through Jesus did not become part of the culture of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - the nation TO WHOM God revealed them.

But just as salvation is FOR ALL nations, so the understanding of the God-given types and shadows of salvation is for ALL nations.

It's unfortunate that the Hebrews/Jews have been exalted with an unwarranted exaltation by the teachers of false doctrine, and that instead of using the term "types and shadows" or "biblical types and shadows" with reference to the feasts, the terms "Hebrew roots" or even "Jewish roots" began to be used with reference to them.

The fact remains that these types and shadows are very good teachers leading one to a deeper understanding and appreciation of the meaning of and reason for many of the things that Christ did and said; but the heretics who insist on their observance as something which is binding upon all Christians, have pushed many Christians away from the blessing obtained through a fuller understanding of these types and shadows, and has brought about disunity among brothers in Christ.

The other side of the coin is that it just so happens that the observance and celebration of these types and shadows is just as native to the culture of the Jews as Christmas and Easter are native to the culture of the Gentiles, and for this reason it is just as unfair to expect a Jew who becomes a Christian to change his culture, as it is to expect a Gentile to change his culture and begin to celebrate the biblical types and shadows instead of Christmas and Easter, if the Gentiles do not choose to do so.

But the unnecessary and even blind prejudice of many of the Gentile brothers in Christ against the biblical festivals and celbrations which are the types and shadows of our salvation by Jesus is, IMO, a direct result of the heresy that says that the Gentiles MUST and SHOULD celebrate them, and that the commandment to do so still stands.

I hope I'm making myself understood here, it's really difficult to explain what I'm trying to say.

ananias

[ConqueredbyLove]

Would you be more comfortable with the term "Hebrew Tree Movement"?

Yes, Christianity's roots are, or should have been, planted deeply into the Hebrew culture from whence it sprang, especially since the first mention of "Church" in the bible is in reference to Mt. Sinai. Sure, our roots lead ultimately to YHWH, but let us pause and look how we got to where we are.

Good post. This whole thread is something I have been becoming increasingly interested in. And, it was the Holy Spirit that has brought people into my life to start fanning the flame, so to speak.

We miss sooo much in "western Christianity" by not going back and looking at these things. There is soooo much richness and beauty without legalism in going back to our Hebraic roots.....

[manichunter]

This post may very well prove to be an exercise in how to make few friends and lots of enemies, but here goes:

But who exactly is responsible then, for this lack of unity that has crept in among brothers in Christ, if not those who assert and insist that these types and shadows MUST AND SHOULD be observed, and that the commandments to observe them were never superseded by the New Covenant once the antitype had come, and the commandments to observe them therefore still fully apply to all Christians?

Shouldn’t the lack of unity and misunderstandings brought about among the anti-(so-called) “Hebraic roots” and pro-(so-called) “Hebraic roots” Christians be bridged by the acknowledgment of ALL that those who assert and insist that these types and shadows MUST AND SHOULD be observed are heretics and have no part with the rest of the brothers from both groups?

This may sound extremely harsh, but what would the apostle Paul and the other apostles have said?

Ananias

Who is a modern day Judiazers................. for two hundred.

[IPet2_9]

Yes, Christianity's roots are, or should have been, planted deeply into the Hebrew culture from whence it sprang,

No, it's not. For reasons I previously cited. You're giving the Hebrews WAY too much credit. The Bible pre-dates any Hebrew culture; and even if it didn't, what should we say? That Hebrew culture is rooted in God? It's not--but if it was, then we still have to say Christianity is rooted in God--not the culture.

[SpokenFor]

Ananias

I agree with you. I have had a pulling in my heart to learn more about these Feasts and Festivals in celebration of Jesus' fulfillment of the Spring festivals and the coming end times fulfillment of the fall festivals.

One word of caution, however, is a growing movement to get Christians to observe the Noahide laws as a path to righteousness. One must also be careful not to follow the path of the Kabalah. (Note: if your pastor or evangelist tells you to eat of the Tree of Life...RUN the other direction!)

[ananias]

Ananias

I agree with you. I have had a pulling in my heart to learn more about these Feasts and Festivals in celebration of Jesus' fulfillment of the Spring festivals and the coming end times fulfillment of the fall festivals.

One word of caution, however, is a growing movement to get Christians to observe the Noahide laws as a path to righteousness. One must also be careful not to follow the path of the Kabalah. (Note: if your pastor or evangelist tells you to eat of the Tree of Life...RUN the other direction!)

That's a YES - run a mile from those who strart that nonsense. There's a huge difference between celebrating the biblical feasts which are types and shadows in the way in which one would celebrate Christmas or Easter, and getting into the trap of those who say that these feasts MUST and SHOULD be celebrated because they assert that the commandments concerning them still stand, or even worse - getting into the Kabalah - which is nothing more and nothing less than a mixture of demonic Eastern occultism and mysticism with Judaism.

ananias

[ananias]

Who is a modern day Judiazers................. for two hundred.

Manichunter, sorry... I don't understand your question. I'm not American. What's ..... for two hundred?

ananias

[ananias]

No, it's not. For reasons I previously cited. You're giving the Hebrews WAY too much credit. The Bible pre-dates any Hebrew culture; and even if it didn't, what should we say? That Hebrew culture is rooted in God? It's not--but if it was, then we still have to say Christianity is rooted in God--not the culture.

Hi, 1Pet2: 9.

My point that I'm trying to get you to understand is that the God-given festivals etc which are types and shadows of our salvation by Jesus, TRANSCEND the Hebrews, the Jews and the Christians - they are types and shadows of Christ and His work of salvation.

The fact that they became part of the culture of the Israelites is INCIDENTAL to the fact that it just so happens that it was to that nation that God revealed these types and shadows. Therefore even though they are not part of OUR culture as Gentiles, they are more OUR types and shadows, or should I say, more FOR US who believe in Jesus, than for those who reject Him.

The irony is that most of the people who celebrate the types and shadows are Jews who reject Jesus - isn't it time we reclaimed what rightfully belongs to THE TRUE seed of believing Abraham - the Israel of God?

ananias

[BHS]

Ananias,

I understand what you are saying, though I think you misrepresent many. I for one do not tell any other Christian that they MUST or SHOULD observe the feasts and festivals or any other commandment, except what is clearly understood throughout the scripture as God's moral standard of behavior. However, what I would hope is that those Christians like yourself who have chosen to observe the feasts as "types and shadows" would also come to the realization that there is far more to learn from the "OT" than what most Christians have even begun to comprehend. And for those of us who find the whole Word of God to be profitable, I think it is a very unknowledgeable opinion to call us heretics or to say what we believe is heresy. Perhaps it would be better for us to consider that we are brothers with differences of opinions that warrant more study on both sides of the issue.

I find it an outrageous statement that the feasts and festivals are more for those who believe than those who do not -- as they were and are a teaching tool for anyone who has eyes to see -- the Messiah! Paul says that we Gentiles now are called for the purpose of making unbelieving Jews jealous. Is this your way of doing that -- claiming ownership of what you think now rightly belongs to Christians and not to them because their eyes are yet blinded?

Blessings,
BHS

[drew]

No, it's not. For reasons I previously cited. You're giving the Hebrews WAY too much credit. The Bible pre-dates any Hebrew culture; and even if it didn't, what should we say? That Hebrew culture is rooted in God? It's not--but if it was, then we still have to say Christianity is rooted in God--not the culture.
I think that Christianity is deeply rooted in its Jewish origins and cannot be "disentangled" from it.

I follow the position of NT Wright, who argues that what happened at calvary was precisely the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant - the plan to save the world from sin and death is that self-same plan, not something else.

God is not doing one thing with the Jews and something else through Jesus. In fact, I will claim that the nation of Israel plays a critical role in "setting up" conditions that had to be satisfied in order for Jesus to do what He did on the cross. More specifically, the nation of Israel was used by God as the "place" where sin was "accumulated" and brought to full hideousness of expression before Israel's faithful Messiah brought the Abrahamic covnenant to its fulfillment.

So we all owe the Jews a great deal. They, like Jesus, suffered as part of the single plan of redemption.

I suspect people will suggest that I am taking away from what Jesus did on the Cross. Not so, but I will see if people raise that issue and then respond.

[keck553]

Paul says that we Gentiles now are called for the purpose of making unbelieving Jews jealous. Is this your way of doing that -- claiming ownership of what you think now rightly belongs to Christians and not to them because their eyes are yet blinded?

Blessings,
BHS

Does anyone really believe mainstream Christianity is succeeding in making Jews jealous?

[ananias]

Ananias,

I understand what you are saying, though I think you misrepresent many. I for one do not tell any other Christian that they MUST or SHOULD observe the feasts and festivals or any other commandment,...

And for those of us who find the whole Word of God to be profitable, I think it is a very unknowledgeable opinion to call us heretics or to say what we believe is heresy.

I find it an outrageous statement that the feasts and festivals are more for those who believe than those who do not -- as they were and are a teaching tool for anyone who has eyes to see -- the Messiah! Paul says that we Gentiles now are called for the purpose of making unbelieving Jews jealous. Is this your way of doing that -- claiming ownership of what you think now rightly belongs to Christians and not to them because their eyes are yet blinded?

Blessings,
BHS

Shalom, BHS.

I'm very pleased you said that you do not tell any Christian that he MUST and SHOULD celebrate the biblical Feasts, because in my OP I said that ONLY those who DO say this are heretics - so that obviously excludes you - since you DON'T say that Christians MUST and SHOULD celebrate the Feasts or that this celebration is a commandment which still stands, even though the antitype of those Feasts and celebrations has come.

You and I know that a remnant of that generation of the Jews which will be alive immediately before the return of Yeshua will be restored to God, and that this remnant and generation is typified by Joseph's younger brother, Benjamin, and by the generation that went into the promised land after the entire previous generation, with the exception of Joshua and Caleb, perished in the wilderness.

Regardless of that fact however, if you read Rom.11: 17 you will see that those Jews who reject Christ are completely and utterly broken off from Israel AND ARE NOT Israelites or Jews in the eyes of God. In the eyes of man and in the eyes of THEMSELVES they may be - but NOT in the eyes of God - that's the severity of God Paul spoke about in Rom.11: 22.

The part of Israel Paul spoke about in Rom.11: 25 which was hardened was this GREATER part which was broken off at the time of the crucifixion of Christ, when they provided TWO WITNESSES against themselves saying, (1) "We have no king but Caesar"; and (2) His blood be on us AND ON OUR CHILDREN"

The entire Revelation of God to Moses on Mount Sinai of the Torah - including of the types and shadows is for those who are citizens of the nation of Israel - and those who reject Christ ARE NOT citizens of the nation of Israel.

This is why the unsaved Jews haven't the foggiest clue as to the true meaning of those Feasts when they celebrate them year after year.

They who reject Jesus - whether Jew or Gentile - are not part of Israel, and the phsical descendants of Abraham will stay broken off until they repent of their unbelief.

God's Torah, with its types and shadows was given to ISRAEL - AND THAT'S US - JEW AND GENTILE IN CHRIST. And this is why only Jewish and some Gentile Christians understand the TRUE meaning of the types and shadows.

ananias

[ananias]

Ananias,

I find it an outrageous statement that the feasts and festivals are more for those who believe than those who do not -- as they were and are a teaching tool for anyone who has eyes to see -- the Messiah! Paul says that we Gentiles now are called for the purpose of making unbelieving Jews jealous. Is this your way of doing that -- claiming ownership of what you think now rightly belongs to Christians and not to them because their eyes are yet blinded?

Blessings,
BHS

It's good that you find that statement outrageous - that means that so would the unbelieving Jews; and so at last, by Christians taking ownership of the Festivals, celebrations and holy days which are rightfully ours and telling the world that we are Isarel and are Jews, the unbelieving Jews will finally be provoked to jealousy the way they should be by the Gentiles. Unfortunately Christmas, Easter, etc and the Gentile Christian prejudice against the biblical holy days does not do this.

ananias

[BHS]

It's good that you find that statement outrageous - that means that so would the unbelieving Jews; and so at last, by Christians taking ownership of the Festivals, celebrations and holy days which are rightfully ours and telling the world that we are Isarel and are Jews, the unbelieving Jews will finally be provoked to jealousy theta way they should be by the Gentiles. Unfortunately Christmas, Easter, etc and the Gentile Christian prejudice against the biblical holy days does not do this.

ananias

I believe in both a physical Israel (Jews by descent) and a spiritual Israel (believers in Jesus as one new man).

Sad to say, I think your comment about

"taking ownership of the Festivals, celebrations and holy days which are rightfully ours and telling the world that we are Isarel and are Jews, the unbelieving Jews will finally be provoked to jealousy the way they should be by the Gentiles"

is from a Gentile perspective and not a Jewish one.

I wonder just how much communication you have had with Jews. IMO, this attitude would only outrage a Jew and cause even more ill-will. I would agree that neither Christmas, Easter, etc. would move a Jew to jealousy either.

Blessings,
BHS

[ananias]

I believe in both a physical Israel (Jews by descent) and a spiritual Israel (believers in Jesus as one new man).

Blessings,
BHS

You and I certainly aren't on the same page with regard to your above statement. God never created a natural and a spiritual Israel - He called (believing) Abraham and his (believing) descendants and elected (believing) Abraham and His (believing) descendants with an eternal election, promising to be God to (believing) Abraham and his (believing) descendants forever.

Israel was called, elected, brought into being through a miracle prgnancy and birth (Sarah's cenception in her old age) and led, guided, taught, rebuked and chastised by the Spirit of God, who also began to dwell among them in a tabernacle from the days of Sinai, 430 years after the calling and eternal election of (believing) Abraham and his (believing) descendants.

But, of course, they were not spirits floating around up there looking down - they were in the world, in physical bodies.

At the time of the crucifixion of Christ, most of the descendants of Abraham, through their unbelief, provided two witnesses against themselves which showed that they were never truly citizens of Israel - just as the majority of their forefathers had done in the wilderness (those who perished), and just as the majority of the ten Northern tribes had done and were exiled and scattered among the nations, never to return (there was a remnant which fled into Judah, and all 12 tribes are represented in the return from Babylonian captivity), and just as the majority of their forefathers had done at the time of the exile and captivity in Babylon.

So Israel was always a spiritual nation - but they were in the world, in physical bodies, and after the majority were once again broken off through their unbelief at the time of the crifixion of Christ, Gentiles began to be grafted in among the remnant (Rom.11: 1-5, 17), and the first tabernacle/temple system became forever superseded by a New type of tabernacle made up of all the individual (Jewish and Gentile) believers in Christ. The Gentile believers in Christ together with the believing Jewish remnant are the (true) seed of Abraham together, and the Gentiles are Jews, inwardly - for "he is not a Jew who is one outwardly", said Paul.

The seed that is broken off have been wandering in a spiritual wilderness in unbelief for over 1,900 years, with all their generations perishing in that wilderness. This is such an awful tragedy that Paul said,

"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:" (Rom.9: 1-3).

Then he continued:

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" (Rom.9: 6)

This verse means exactly what it says - that not all so-called Jews are truly Israel, which are of (the physical seed) of Israel.

IMHO, it is only in a human attempt at keeping these unbelieving non-Israelites as part of Israel that you are adhering to (what in my opinion is) this unbiblical doctrine of both a physical (Jews by descent) Israel and a spiritual (believers in Jesus as one new man) Israel. There is no such thing in scripture - there is and always has been, only one Israel.

Yet because God will remain faithful to His Word to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, for their sakes, and the sake of His Word to them, He will eventually "pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." (Zech.12: 10; Rom.11: 26-33).

God made it clear through Ezekiel that it is not for their sakes that He will do this, but for His holy name's sake (Eze.36: 22) - and God's holy name is linked with the promise(s) He made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, which He also sealed by an everlasting covenant.

So as I said, the seed that is broken off have been wandering in a spiritual wilderness in unbelief for over 1,900 years, with all their generations perishing in that wilderness. And this is an awful, awful tragedy.

And it's CERTAINLY not as though ANY Gentile who has received mercy from God is ANY BETTER than any unbelieving Jew has ever been, for it is ALL of God's mercy, and we are saved by the grace of God and the blood Jesus shed for our sins - and NOTHING more. Our FAITH merits our salvation JUST AS LITTLE as the unbelieving seed of Israel's unbelief merited theirs. We are saved BY the blood of Jesus THROUGH our faith - we are not saved BY our faith.

And OF COURSE if the so-called Jews (who are not Jews inwardly and therefore are not true Jews) are provoked to jealousy FOR ANY REASON by the Gentiles, they WILL become enraged through this jealousy; and if the Gentile churches had it right, and weren't thrown into a false doctrine by the Roman and Eastern Orthodox Church (which was born out of a spiritual pride and conceit which Paul warned the church at Rome against in Romans 11), then the so-called Jews WOULD HAVE been provoked to jealousy and enraged by this jealousy - because the Genitles, claiming to be the tue Jews along with the natural Jewish remnant, would have been celebrating the Jewish feasts, new moons and Sabbaths instead of pagan Gentile festivals that were given a Christian mask - but this jealousy would probably have caused a lot more Jews to question whether this Yeshua isn't indeed teh Messiah, since He has clearly turned the hearts of many Gentiles from all nations to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Jews become enraged through being provoked to jealousy is a good thing - I can just imagine how many Rabbis would crack like hard nuts when they've finished tearing their beards out in jealous rage at what they see as the "cheek" of the Gentiles, and when the fire they've called upon God to rain down upon the Gentile Christians has come down upon them instead.

ananias

[ananias]

I believe in both a physical Israel (Jews by descent) and a spiritual Israel (believers in Jesus as one new man).

Sad to say, I think your comment about "taking ownership of the Festivals, celebrations and holy days which are rightfully ours and telling the world that we are Isarel and are Jews, the unbelieving Jews will finally be provoked to jealousy the way they should be by the Gentiles"
is from a Gentile perspective and not a Jewish one.

Blessings,
BHS

If you read my previous post (post #20) and compare it with the replly posts I received from some of the Gentile Christians in my thread at
http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthread.php?t=138019&highlight=lessons+Gentiles+learned+Paul , then you will see that my perspective is certainly not from Gentile perspective - for those who disagree with me, say that the Israel which came into being through God's calling and eternal election of (believing) Abraham and his (believing) descendants, is an "Old Testament, natural Israel" which has been forever superseded by a "New Testament, spiritual Israel" - something which I do not say.

My perspective, IMO, is a Pauline perspective, for I take what Paul said about "not all being Israel who are of Israel" (Romans 9) up literally, and Paul was a Jew, not a Gentile.

And there are many Gentiles at these Forums who say that my perspective is not a Pauline perspective, therefore my perspective is certainly not from Gentile perspective - it is directly derived from Paul's own teaching when he said that not all are Israel (merely because) they are of (the physical seed of) Israel.

God bless you brother,

ananias

[keck553]

I certainly have witnessed Jews 'come to Jesus'. I've seen unbelieving Jews who love God more than most Christians I know. However, when a Torah raised Jew sees Christian day-keeping patterned after Ba'al or Ishtar, their eyes are closed by men, and I don't think it would take a lot of thought to understand that. No doubt the average Torah observant Jew views Christians observing Torah commands as fakes and pretenders. That doesn't mean they are right. Their rabbinical halacha has worked around so many Torah commands that in itself should provoke them.

That said, the Torah observent Jew still has a dilemma with atonement. No matter what the rabbi's make up to work around blood offerings, prayer is just not sufficient. So when one finds his sin's not only atoned for, but wiped clean through Yeshua, the liberty from that yoke is intense. I've seen Jews freed by faith in Yeshua. It's an amazing and intensly emotional event to witness. What's even cooler is watching men's rulings and traditions that replace God's commands fall off like scales. Typically they'll simply look and see what God says.

So, do Jews who come to life through faith in Yeshua just stop observing God's commands and celebrate the day Ba'al was born and the pagan fertility day? Do they feel convicted when pressured by Christians or rabbis to follow the traditions of men? No. They are freed from the convictions and condemnations from both the rabbinical and Christian man-made doctrines. Now that freedom is alluring.

[drew]

You and I certainly aren't on the same page with regard to your above statement. God never created a natural and a spiritual Israel
I think that, at least from Romans, it is clear that Paul does have these 2 Israels in mind - he does believe in both an "ethnic" Isreal and a "true" Israel.

In Romans 4, if not elsewhere, Paul asserts his definition of "true" Israel:

So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised

Clearly, he is talking about an Israel that is different from the "12 tribes" or "national Israel".

Now I suspect that you will say that this "true" Israel is the only Israel there is, that God never created an "ethnic Israel". I would have to disagree. In Romans 10, Paul makes it pretty clear that, in his mind at least, there is indeed this category of "ethnic Israel" that is distinct from "true Israel":

Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness

Here, Paul is clearly not talking about "true" Israel - he is talking about "ethnic" Israel.

So there are indeed two Israels in Paul's mind, at least.

[ananias]

I certainly have witnessed Jews 'come to Jesus'. I've seen unbelieving Jews who love God more than most Christians I know. However, when a Torah raised Jew sees Christian day-keeping patterned after Ba'al or Ishtar, their eyes are closed by men, and I don't think it would take a lot of thought to understand that. No doubt the average Torah observant Jew views Christians observing Torah commands as fakes and pretenders. That doesn't mean they are right. Their rabbinical halacha has worked around so many Torah commands that in itself should provoke them.

That said, the Torah observent Jew still has a dilemma with atonement. No matter what the rabbi's make up to work around blood offerings, prayer is just not sufficient. So when one finds his sin's not only atoned for, but wiped clean through Yeshua, the liberty from that yoke is intense. I've seen Jews freed by faith in Yeshua. It's an amazing and intensly emotional event to witness. What's even cooler is watching men's rulings and traditions that replace God's commands fall off like scales. Typically they'll simply look and see what God says.

So, do Jews who come to life through faith in Yeshua just stop observing God's commands and celebrate the day Ba'al was born and the pagan fertility day? Do they feel convicted when pressured by Christians or rabbis to follow the traditions of men? No. They are freed from the convictions and condemnations from both the rabbinical and Christian man-made doctrines. Now that freedom is alluring.

I agree with all of your points here. And I'm sure Yeshua still yearns for the reconciliation with His estranged brothers, in the same way that His biblical type, Joseph, did - to such an extent that when that reconcilation finally came after all those years, the whole house of Pharoah (the rulres of the world) heard his loud sobs as he forgave his brothers who had repented of what they had done to him and were dismayed in his presence.

Therefore I say with caution (because I may get shot down for saying this) that Yeshua rejoices more over a single Jew who is reconciled to Him than He rejoices over a single Gentile who is reconciled to Him - not that he doesn't rejoice over the Gentile who repents of sin and comes to Him for salvation or that He doesn't love all men equally, but the natural seed are still His own family, as Jesus is still a Jew.

ananias

[ananias]

I think that, at least from Romans, it is clear that Paul does have these 2 Israels in mind - he does believe in both an "ethnic" Isreal and a "true" Israel.

In Romans 4, if not elsewhere, Paul asserts his definition of "true" Israel:

So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised

Clearly, he is talking about an Israel that is different from the "12 tribes" or "national Israel".

Now I suspect that you will say that this "true" Israel is the only Israel there is, that God never created an "ethnic Israel". I would have to disagree. In Romans 10, Paul makes it pretty clear that, in his mind at least, there is indeed this category of "ethnic Israel" that is distinct from "true Israel":

Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness


Here, Paul is clearly not talking about "true" Israel - he is talking about "ethnic" Israel.

So there are indeed two Israels in Paul's mind, at least.

O.K. Now I'm starting to get your point and BHS's point about this. I've said before in another thread that just as there is no male and female, slave and free in Christ and yet in the world there still exists a distinction between the rulers and the ruled and male and female, so in the world there still exists a distinciton between Jew and Gentile:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Gal.3: 28).

So I guess I've been contradicting my own theology - I freely admit that I must be wrong about there only being one Israel.

ananias

[ananias]

IMHO, it is only in a human attempt at keeping these unbelieving non-Israelites as part of Israel that you are adhering to (what in my opinion is) this unbiblical doctrine of both a physical (Jews by descent) Israel and a spiritual (believers in Jesus as one new man) Israel. There is no such thing in scripture - there is and always has been, only one Israel.

Yet because God will remain faithful to His Word to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, for their sakes, and the sake of His Word to them, He will eventually "pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." (Zech.12: 10; Rom.11: 26-33).

God made it clear through Ezekiel that it is not for their sakes that He will do this, but for His holy name's sake (Eze.36: 22) - and God's holy name is linked with the promise(s) He made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, which He also sealed by an everlasting covenant.

So as I said, the seed that is broken off have been wandering in a spiritual wilderness in unbelief for over 1,900 years, with all their generations perishing in that wilderness. And this is an awful, awful tragedy.

And it's CERTAINLY not as though ANY Gentile who has received mercy from God is ANY BETTER than any unbelieving Jew has ever been, for it is ALL of God's mercy, and we are saved by the grace of God and the blood Jesus shed for our sins - and NOTHING more. Our FAITH merits our salvation JUST AS LITTLE as the unbelieving seed of Israel's unbelief merited theirs. We are saved BY the blood of Jesus THROUGH our faith - we are not saved BY our faith.

ananias

And so I eat my words. Sorry, BHS.

[Emanate]

I think that, at least from Romans, it is clear that Paul does have these 2 Israels in mind - he does believe in both an "ethnic" Isreal and a "true" Israel.

In Romans 4, if not elsewhere, Paul asserts his definition of "true" Israel:

So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised

Clearly, he is talking about an Israel that is different from the "12 tribes" or "national Israel".

Now I suspect that you will say that this "true" Israel is the only Israel there is, that God never created an "ethnic Israel". I would have to disagree. In Romans 10, Paul makes it pretty clear that, in his mind at least, there is indeed this category of "ethnic Israel" that is distinct from "true Israel":

Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness

Here, Paul is clearly not talking about "true" Israel - he is talking about "ethnic" Israel.

So there are indeed two Israels in Paul's mind, at least.


No, there is only one Israel. They are one in the same. Ethnic Israel is still Israel. Gentiles Grafted in is till Israel. Apostate ethnic Israel is still Israel. The father never denied the prodigal son or the faithful son. They are both still one in his family.

[ananias]

No, there is only one Israel. They are one in the same. Ethnic Israel is still Israel. Gentiles Grafted in is till Israel. Apostate ethnic Israel is still Israel. The father never denied the prodigal son or the faithful son. They are both still one in his family.

Thanks, Emanate. I'd love to hear what others say about this who like us, reject the idea that the church is a "New Testament and spiritual Israel" which has forever superseded an "Old Testament, natural Israel".

It doesn't really make sense that there can be two Israel - and I know I'm contradicting myself again in this thread, but I became confused for a moment there by Paul's statement which was quoted by drew:

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." (Rom.10: 1-3).

"They" being apostate Israel - that keeps it in perspective, even though in the world there is also a distinction between the natural (believing) seed of Abraham and the Gentiles who are grafted in among them - they are one In Christ, but there remains this distinction.

Still only one Israel.

ananias

[drew]

No, there is only one Israel. They are one in the same. Ethnic Israel is still Israel. Gentiles Grafted in is till Israel. Apostate ethnic Israel is still Israel. The father never denied the prodigal son or the faithful son. They are both still one in his family.
This is not how Paul sees things. In Romans 4, he refers to a worldwide family for Abraham whose membership has nothing to do with being "ethnically" Jewish. But in other places, like Romans 10 and 11, he clearly refers to an Israel that is "ethnic" in nature.

It is of course true that some members of ethnic Israel are also members of true Israel. But not all members of ethnic Israel are such. So Paul really does have these 2 concepts in his mind. At times, such as the first few verses of Romans 10, he is clearly referring to ethnic Israel. He cannot be talking about true Israel there (first verses of Romans 10) given what he says in chapter 4 about true Israel.

[Ta-An]

The problem I always had with the Hebrew Roots Movement is that it's placing Christianity's roots in man. Specifically, the Hebrews. Christianity's roots are not in people, or in any of the things coming from people; like a culture, or a language, or a nation. Christianity is rooted in the Great I AM, Yahweh, Iesus, God.ooops..... I do not agree with you :D

The roots are in Yeshua as Messiah..... unless you refer to Him in His manhood role :D

Where do you get the Hebrews as man stuff from?? :confused

[drew]

Like other thread, I worry here that our differences are really only "terminological". Let me try to explain:

I think it is clear that, at times, Paul refers to the group of individuals that are "circumcized and under the Torah". He makes statements about this group of people, such as the stuff in the first verses of Romans 10. In my posts, I use the term "ethnic" Israel to refer to this group of persons.

I think it is equally clear that, at other times, Paul refers to a different group of individuals - those who are "of the faith of Abraham" and may or may not be "circumcized and under the Torah. He makes statements about this group of people that are different from what he says about the first group (as per para above) In my posts, I use the term "true Israel" to refer to this second group of persons.

And, of course, one can be a member of both these groups, or can one be a member of neither.

Now one can indeed say "there is only one Israel", depending on how you define the term "Israel". But what I think is beyond dispute is that Paul identifies these two distinct groups and makes different statements about them.

[BHS]

And so I eat my words. Sorry, BHS.

Ananias,

I am touched that you would recognize that you could be wrong. I do believe that there is only one "spiritual" Israel in that only believers in Jesus remain in the commonwealth of Israel as Paul describes the tree in Romans 11.

One comment I would like to make about "spiritual Jews" is that Paul was addressing Jews when he refers to those who are "truly" Jews. A Gentile believer who is "spiritual" does not become a "spiritual Jew". He remains a Gentile and would more rightly be called a spiritual Gentile. Believing Jews and Gentiles become "one new man in Messiah", not "spiritual Jews", which only confuses the issue and angers Jews, whether they believe or not.

The point about Jews becoming jealous I think is a difference in how we think Paul terms jealousy. Does he mean the type of jealousy that leads to anger and hostility? What would that benefit? Even the Islamic religion can arouse suspicion and mistrust. In Romans Paul says that Jews had the advantage -- by having the instructions of the Lord from ancient days. Since Gentile believers have increased in number, I believe what Paul is saying, is that Gentiles are to provoke the Jews to jealousy, not by causing anger, hostility, suspicion and mistrust (which is so often the case), but by causing them to think that Gentiles now have an even greater advantage in knowing the Lord. When we know the Hebrew scriptures even better than the Jews, express our gratitude and love for them and Israel, that is when they will take notice of our sincere faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel). And prayerfully come to recognize Jesus as their Messiah!

Blessings,
BHS

[Ta-An]

ananias,,, I surely hope that I am misinterpreting your post....

Your post sounds a bit anti-semitic to me.... :o

[jamesand57]

ooops..... I do not agree with you :D

The roots are in Yeshua as Messiah..... unless you refer to Him in His manhood role :D

Where do you get the Hebrews as man stuff from?? :confused


I have to say that Christianity is rooted in The Old Testament, and the Belief in YHWH. Jesus or Yeshua is central to Christianity, he lived as a Jew being the embodiment of grace, and often broke what man had understood of the torah
through their tradition. Christian beliefs go well beyond the Torah though in that the entire Word of God is inspired by God. The Bible as given is a progressive revelation of God's truth to mankind.

[ananias]

I have to say that Christianity is rooted in The Old Testament, and the Belief in YHWH. Jesus or Yeshua is central to Christianity, he lived as a Jew being the embodiment of grace, and often broke what man had understood of the torah
through their tradition. Christian beliefs go well beyond the Torah though in that the entire Word of God is inspired by God. The Bible as given is a progressive revelation of God's truth to mankind.

Thanks for that, jamesand57. I agree with what I think you're saying - in my OP I mentoned the fact that the types and shadows are not eternal - it's the antitype of these who is eternal - and therfore whether or not Gentiles keep the Sabbath on Saturday or celebrate the biblical feasts has no bearing on their standing with God - since it is only the shed blood of Jesus which has a bearing on our standing with God.

We also need to bear in mind that the Old Testament temple, with its system of sacrifices and offerings, was just as much a part of these types aned shadows contained in Torah as were the mo'adim (God's appointed times, otherwise known as "the Feasts of the LORD").

Therefore since we do not, and will never again make animal sacrifices and offerings for sin, why do some still teach that the mo'adim MUST still be observed in accordance with Torah?

Of course, for all those Gentiles who love the mo'adim because of their wealth of teaching about HaMaschiach, there's ntohing wrong with them observing the mo'adim by choice - others celebrate Christmas, etc.

Neither is there any reason why Jewish believers in Yeshua should change the culture they grew up in and refrain from observing the mo'adim and Shabbat, etc.

But to insist that these types and shadows MUST STILL be observed is contrary to the doctrine of the apostles.

ananias

[keck553]

I have to say that Christianity is rooted in The Old Testament, and the Belief in YHWH. Jesus or Yeshua is central to Christianity, he lived as a Jew being the embodiment of grace, and often broke what man had understood of the torah
through their tradition. Christian beliefs go well beyond the Torah though in that the entire Word of God is inspired by God. The Bible as given is a progressive revelation of God's truth to mankind.

I think that means we can have it all (that is everything God has given us at this point) !!

Praise God, in the Name of Yeshua.

[walked]

Where ? where in Genesis, Exodus, Numbers or Deuteronomy did God say the the law was given to man for mans justification ???
where ? where ? where ?

Where does God say the laws given by Moses were given for mans justification
The covenant of Law given by Moses, God promises to:
1. Create a special treasured people to God among all people, a kingdom of priest.
2. And to receive long days and to receive His mercy, kindness and His faithfulness with Gods blessing on the obedient ones keeping these laws.
3. To keep peace among men.
4. To Honor God and His faithfulness to His covenant to Abraham with the introduction of the codes of passover.

First to Honor God and His faithfulness to His covenant to Abraham with the introduction of the codes of passover:
.....Exd 13:3
And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this [place]: there shall no leavened bread be eaten.
.....Exd 13:4
This day came ye out in the month Abib.
.....Exd 13:5
And it shall be when the LORD shall bring thee into the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee, a land flowing with milk and honey, that thou shalt keep this service in this month.
.....Exd 13:6
Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day [shall be] a feast to the LORD.
.....Exd 13:7
Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters.
.....Exd 13:8
And thou shalt shew thy son in that day, saying, [This is done] because of that [which] the LORD did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt.

Second to keep peace among men
.....Exd 18:21
Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place [such] over them, [to be] rulers of thousands, [and] rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
.....Exd 18:22
And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, [that] every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear [the burden] with thee.
.....Exd 18:23
If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee [so], then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.

Third for Israel to be a special treasured people to God among all people, a kingdom of priest, Also to receive long days and receive Gods goodness, mercy and His faithfulness, with Gods blessing on the obedient ones keeping these laws.
.....Exd 19:3
And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
.....Exd 19:4
Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
.....Exd 19:5
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:
.....Exd 19:6
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
.....Exd 19:26 - Exd 20:17
The ten commandments given to the people with Gods promise that if they are obedient to them the people will: Receive long days and receive Gods goodness, mercy and His faithfulness. as found in Exd 19:26 - 20:17

Fourth the book of Leviticus......
Gives the laws and regulations for worship, including instructions on ceremonial cleanness, moral laws, holy days, the sabbath year and the Year of Jubilee... with Gods blessing on the obedient ones keeping them found also in Deuteronomy.
NOT JUSTIFICATION or SALVATION !
where ? where ? where ?



Old covenant to Abraham
1. I will Make his seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, [then] shall thy seed also be numbered.
2. I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
3. I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing.
Gods covenant to (Abram/Abraham), and his seed/children
The covenant to Abraham was brought to preserve Adam/Eves seed from Abraham to David to Christ Jesus to bless Gods creation with His revelation of salvation and restoration to fallen creation, which lead from Abraham to Isaac to Jacob to Joseph to David to Christ Jesus who fulfilled it.

.....Gen 12:1
Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
.....Gen 12:2
And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
.....Gen 12:3
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
.....Gen 12:4
So Abram departed,as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him
.....Gen 13:14
And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
.....Gen 13:15
For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
.....Gen 13:16
And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, [then] shall thy seed also be numbered.
.....Gen 15:18
In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
.....Exd 2:23
And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel
(Jacob/Israels children/seed) sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.
.....Exd 2:24
And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
.....Exd 3:15
And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations
.....Exd 4:31
And the people believed: and when they heard that the LORD had visited the children of Israel, and that he had looked upon their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshiped.
.....Exd 6:4
And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.
.....Exd 6:5
And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.
.....Exd 6:8
And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I [am] the LORD.
.....Exd 15:17
Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, [in] the place, O LORD, [which] thou hast made for thee to dwell in, [in] the Sanctuary, O Lord, [which] thy hands have established.
I don't see God saying this covenant with Abraham is for justification either !
where ? where ? where ?

[keck553]

Where ? where in Genesis, Exodus, Numbers or Deuteronomy did God say the the law was given to man for mans justification ???



Nowhere in God's Word. Justification has always been by faith through relationship.

Unless you look into man's writings.....

[walked]

Nowhere in God's Word. Justification has always been by faith through relationship.

Unless you look into man's writings.....

Amen to that, but the evidence of ones faith or the evidence of one trusting or the evidence of ones dependence in/on Gods word, the evidence of that is ones obedience to Gods word....

And how can one know Gods word for to be obedient to it unless one feeds on/studies Gods word 'personally' and does not depend on a man to scribe, interpret or teach it to him.
Trusting a mans interpretation of Gods word will lead to death. Just as centuries of mans doctrine that the old covenant was brought to justify men who keep/practice/observe it, that mans doctrine/teaching will lead those who trust it, it will lead them to death.
Just as modern mans doctrine suggest that we invite Jesus into our heart to bring our salvation (this is a lie!) God invites us to follow, trust and discipline our lives after Christ Jesus Emanuel for our salvation, we are to respond to Gods invitation and not expect God to respond to our invitation.
And how can one know what to follow and discipline ones life after unless one studies/feeds on Gods word personally and does not follow a man, trusting that man to teach him what to discipline himself to, rather that studying Gods word for him/herself to know what to discipline him/herself to.

The curtain separating men from the Holy of Holies has been torn by the work of Christ, we do not need to depend on a man, priest or teacher to lead us or speak for God any longer. God has revealed all things to us in His word (the bible) all things revealed by Him that we need to know and discipline our lives from, Gods word will interpret itself if one studies and knows all of Gods word and does not depend, trust, have faith in scribes, teachings or doctrines of men to interpret and teach it to them.
I'm not saying to never lend your ear to teachers of Gods word, but saying to personally study and know Gods word for your own self so you will know whether the one you listen to teaching is teaching Gods word or the lies of the evil one.

[ananias]

ananias,,, I surely hope that I am misinterpreting your post....

Your post sounds a bit anti-semitic to me.... :o

Hello, ACCM.

Please could you tell me which post you are referring to, and which words?

ananias

[ananias]

Where ? where in Genesis, Exodus, Numbers or Deuteronomy did God say the the law was given to man for mans justification ???
where ? where ? where ?

Where does God say the laws given by Moses were given for mans justification

NOWHERE. Up until this point, nobody has said that yet in this thread.

ananias

[walked]

NOWHERE. Up until this point, nobody has said that yet in this thread.

ananias


You have said it in your very first post on this thread:


“Hebraic roots” or justification by obedience to the Law?

Ananias

Our/christian Hebraic roots is the seed of Abraham to David to Christ Jesus Emanuel.
The Hebrew nation, Israel and Judah both and the language, culture, customs and literature/manuscripts they preserved to this day, were and are still our teachers and they were and are the people God chose to bring salvation to man through Jesus Christ also born a Hebrew man (born into the world by a woman through Gods chosen people) That dear sir is the Hebraic roots to Christianity.

And another thing I think worth bringing to your attention:
Gods word does not teach that observing Mosaic codes, laws or Holidays will justify a man: as I made clear in my first post on this thread.
So, your assumption that justification is a man or womans motive for observing those holidays, codes n laws quite frankly looks like:
Honestly, to me it looks like the whole purpose of your original post here is to cast judgment on the motives in the hearts of men by what laws/codes some servants of Christ observe or by which days they choose to esteem above other days.
No man is able or qualified to judge or analyze the motives in the hearts of the Lords servants.... They are His servants and He will judge them, I suggest you leave it that way... and go your way at peace with them.

There is a huge difference between discernment and judgment, one will preserve you and the other will condemn you.

[ananias]

You have said it in your very first post on this thread:

A sentence with a question mark behind it is a question and not a statement, walked.

That question is the title to the thread - not the first post in this thread. You obviously never read my very first post in this thread, for if you did, you would know that I was arguing against justification by obedience to the Law.

ananias

[walked]

A sentence with a question mark behind it is a question and not a statement, walked.

That question is the title to the thread - not the first post in this thread. You obviously never read my very first post in this thread, for if you did, you would know that I was arguing against justification by obedience to the Law.

ananias

I did read your entire post, thats why I pointed out earlier and am now pointing out again that Gods word does 'not' teach that observing Mosaic codes, laws or Holidays will justify a man, as I made clear with scripture in my first post on this thread.
So, your assumption that justification is a man or womans motive for observing those Holidays, codes or laws is quite frankly: just you judging the motives of the hearts of men and women by what days, laws or codes that those servants of Christ observe or choose to esteem above other days, codes or laws. No man is able or qualified to judge or analyze the motives in the hearts of the Lords servants.... They are His servants and He will judge them, I suggest you leave it that way... and go your way at peace with them.

There is a huge difference between discernment and judgment, one will preserve you and the other will condemn you.

[ananias]

I did read your entire post, thats why I pointed out earlier and am now pointing out again that Gods word does 'not' teach that observing Mosaic codes, laws or Holidays will justify a man, as I made clear with scripture in my first post on this thread.
So, your assumption that justification is a man or womans motive for observing those Holidays, codes or laws is quite frankly: just you judging the motives of the hearts of men and women by what days, laws or codes that those servants of Christ observe or choose to esteem above other days, codes or laws. No man is able or qualified to judge or analyze the motives in the hearts of the Lords servants.... They are His servants and He will judge them, I suggest you leave it that way... and go your way at peace with them.

There is a huge difference between discernment and judgment, one will preserve you and the other will condemn you.


If you read my OP, you would have noticed that I made a very clear distinction between those who choose to observe the biblical Feasts knowing that doing so does not bring justification and those who teach that the laws and commandments which God gave to the people through Moses regarding these holy days, still apply, and that Christians therefore MUST AND SHOULD celebrate and observe them, instead of doing so by choice.

You are judging MY motives and MY heart and - I assure you - not judging my motives and heart according to truth. You are doing the very thing to me that you are accusing me of doing to others.

Although they are in the minority, there are MANY Jewish and Gentile Christians out there who are teaching that the Law MUST still be obeyed - and this DOCTRINE is heresy. It has no part among Christians. This is what I said in my OP, walked - and I'm not angry with you because you've obviously misunderstood what the OP is about.

ananias

[Emanate]

I did read your entire post, thats why I pointed out earlier and am now pointing out again that Gods word does 'not' teach that observing Mosaic codes, laws or Holidays will justify a man, as I made clear with scripture in my first post on this thread.
So, your assumption that justification is a man or womans motive for observing those Holidays, codes or laws is quite frankly: just you judging the motives of the hearts of men and women by what days, laws or codes that those servants of Christ observe or choose to esteem above other days, codes or laws. No man is able or qualified to judge or analyze the motives in the hearts of the Lords servants.... They are His servants and He will judge them, I suggest you leave it that way... and go your way at peace with them.

There is a huge difference between discernment and judgment, one will preserve you and the other will condemn you.



Walked, you must find me one post on this entire board where ANYONE has suggested that Justification comes from ANYTHING but Messiah Y'shua.

You are getting defensive about something that was never said.

Conviction, anyone?

[Mograce2U]

Like other thread, I worry here that our differences are really only "terminological". Let me try to explain:

I think it is clear that, at times, Paul refers to the group of individuals that are "circumcized and under the Torah". He makes statements about this group of people, such as the stuff in the first verses of Romans 10. In my posts, I use the term "ethnic" Israel to refer to this group of persons.

I think it is equally clear that, at other times, Paul refers to a different group of individuals - those who are "of the faith of Abraham" and may or may not be "circumcized and under the Torah. He makes statements about this group of people that are different from what he says about the first group (as per para above) In my posts, I use the term "true Israel" to refer to this second group of persons.

And, of course, one can be a member of both these groups, or can one be a member of neither.

Now one can indeed say "there is only one Israel", depending on how you define the term "Israel". But what I think is beyond dispute is that Paul identifies these two distinct groups and makes different statements about them.Those distinctions are made between faithful Israel and apostate Israel throughout the scriptures. Paul here in Romans is only zealous to reach the remnant who have not yet been saved. He is not grieving over all Israel - because many will be lost, but the elect remnant is who he is focused on and desires to reach.

(Rom 9:27 KJV) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

(Rom 11:5 KJV) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And Paul is only speaking about that generation that was alive in his day when he speaks about making them jealous over the mercy the Gentiles have received. All of his instructions here are to procure that love and mercy is indeed what they see manifested by the saved saints. And his zeal was intensified because of the judgment he knew was coming.

Why would ethnic Israel today be jealous of Christians who they have been taught to believe are idolators? But the hearing of the gospel of their redemption in Christ can still break the hardened heart - and so we preach Christ to them.

[walked]

Walked, you must find me one post on this entire board where ANYONE has suggested that Justification comes from ANYTHING but Messiah Y'shua.

You are getting defensive about something that was never said.

Conviction, anyone?

No, no conviction but, thank you for revealing a bit of your character with that comment about "conviction"


Need to establish definitions of some vocabulary used by the Author of this thread that led me to post here

1st: “Hebraic roots”
...Hebraic roots to christianity is the seed of Abraham to David to Christ Jesus Emanuel. The Hebrew nation, Israel and Judah both and the language, culture, customs and literature/manuscripts they preserved to this day, were and are still our teachers and they were and are the people God chose to bring salvation to man through Jesus Christ also born a Hebrew man (born into the world by a woman through Gods chosen people)

Hebraic roots to christianity is not the Torah/Mosaic law as suggested in the title and the OP on this thread.


2nd: "justification by obedience to the Law?"
....Justification: Restoration to a position of fellowship with the creator. (salvation)
....Obedience to the law: keeping, observing Mosaic law.

The only thing found in Mosaic law which hints at justification are blood sacrifices offered by the Temple priest for their own and the peoples sins....So I would agree that anyone who still practices blood sacrifice after the atoning sacrifice of Christ was offered for all sin, that person observing those Mosaic laws of blood sacrifice is not/ will not be justified.
A person practicing blood the sacrifices found in the Mosaic law would not have to communicate their thoughts about justification, it would be clear what they thought by their acts of nullifying the work Christ Jesus came to do.
But that is not what the author of the thread is going on about, what is being discussed is simple choices of christians who observe portions of Mosaic law are somehow by default trying to find justification though it, if a christian proclaims justification through that way then they are not a christian by definition.
But there seems to be some hidden mysterious sect who remains anonymous to all of us but the author of this thread.

Gods word makes clear what blessings are promised to those keeping Mosaic law and it is not justification, Orthodox Judaism does not believe it does nor does Messianic Judaism.
Both believe that Justice and Gods blessings are found in the keeping/observing the biblical codes of Deuteronomy and Numbers (not justification).
Both believe that righteousness is to be found in observing the ten commandments, passover and other holidays established by the Torah (not righteousness that brings justification) but righteousness which comes from obedience to Gods word.

So, if Orthodox Jews and Messianic Jews don't believe they are justified by keeping Mosaic law then who are these anonymous people the author of this thread has introduced here that think they are justified by observing Mosaic law ?
It is good to discern that Justification can not come from observing the Mosaic law, that knowledge will preserve you
It is bad that to assumes one who observes Mosaic law is by default observing it to be justified unless that one clearly communicates that is the motive behind their keeping Mosaic laws.

So in summary, who are these anonymous people the author of this thread has introduced here that think they are justified by observing Mosaic law ? The author of the thread just states ambiguously some anonymous christians who observe biblically established Holidays teach and think they are justified for doing so....
Since the mysterious anonymous christian who observe Mosaic law have not made any clear communication that they believe they are justified by observing Mosaic law, then any assumption that they do is judging them.

[Emanate]

No, no conviction but, thank you for revealing a bit of your character with that comment about "conviction"


I am glad you have me figured out.

I believe you misunderstood the OP and myself. We have never claimed justification by Torah. Many people on this very board cannot seperate Torah from justification. So by default, they reason, if we do anything in Torah then we are attempting to be justified by Torah.

I believe Ananias was trying to show that this is faulty reasoning.

[walked]

I am glad you have me figured out.

I believe you misunderstood the OP and myself. We have never claimed justification by Torah. Many people on this very board cannot seperate Torah from justification. So by default, they reason, if we do anything in Torah then we are attempting to be justified by Torah.

I believe Ananias was trying to show that this is faulty reasoning.

No, I think you still misunderstand me....
I do not think that you or the author of the thread believe we are justified by observing laws in Torah, I hope you believe we will be blessed by God if we choose to observe laws in Torah, but that is another subject.

Maybe my misunderstanding is that the OP made assumptions about the motives and beliefs of christians who chose to observe portions of Torah, even with out any such person revealing or communicating any such motives or beliefs.
Even the title of this thread suggest dividing the Lords servants into labeled categories when no such categories exist with their Master.
Because of the vocabulary used ie: "Justification by obedience to the law" and then the anonymous use of christian examples, it appears to teach judgment of another mans or even ones own justification.

Discernment is a gift given to Gods children for their own preservation and for correcting or protecting weaker members of the body of Christ, it is not given to judge anyones justification not even your own.

[RoadWarrior]

Gentlemen,

May I remind you to have a look at the rules for this forum, and make sure you are walking in accordance with the intent laid down by our Board Administrators.

Thank you.

[Emanate]

No, I think you still misunderstand me....
I do not think that you or the author of the thread believe we are justified by observing laws in Torah, I hope you believe we will be blessed by God if we choose to observe laws in Torah, but that is another subject.

Maybe my misunderstanding is that the OP made assumptions about the motives and beliefs of christians who chose to observe portions of Torah, even with out any such person revealing or communicating any such motives or beliefs.
Even the title of this thread suggest dividing the Lords servants into labeled categories when no such categories exist with their Master.
Because of the vocabulary used ie: "Justification by obedience to the law" and then the anonymous use of christian examples, it appears to teach judgment of another mans or even ones own justification.

Discernment is a gift given to Gods children for their own preservation and for correcting or protecting weaker members of the body of Christ, it is not given to judge anyones justification not even your own.

I understood. We got off on the wrong foot.

[Firstfruits]

This post may very well prove to be an exercise in how to make few friends and lots of enemies, but here goes:

“Hebraic roots” or justification by obedience to the Law?

TYPES AND SHADOWS

Paul wrote,

“ALL Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,” (2Tim.3: 16).

But Paul ALSO wrote,

“Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or in respect of a feast, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbaths. For these are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.” (Col.2: 16-17).

Anyone who has been contributing to, and reading threads on Forums like these for any amount of time will have noticed by now that among Christians, there are two extreme reactions to the words “Hebraic roots”.

Very few Christians would deny that there is a great deal of worth in understanding the biblical types and shadows (aka “Hebraic roots”) of the gospel of salvation. For example, understanding that the first cup of wine which was blessed and drunk during the Passover meal which Jesus ate with His disciples, was called the cup of sanctification; and that during the Passover meal, the cup was brought forth with this blessing: "Blessed are You, LORD our GOD, King of the Universe, who creates the fruit of the vine." (It was during the Feast of Passover that Jesus said, "I am the true vine", John 15:1).

The second cup was called the cup of wrath (Luke 22:42-44).

The third cup, which was passed after the meal, was the cup of redemption (Luke 22: 20; 1Corinthians 10: 16), etc.

It is precisely because many Gentile Christians have learned how each and every detail of each and every one of the Feasts and celebrations point to the salvation provided for us by our Savior, that they have learned how these Feasts were celebrated, and have begun to celebrate them WITH ALL THE EMPHASIS BEING ON HOW EACH AND EVERY ASPECT of each and every Feast POINTS TO, AND WAS FULFILLED BY, THEIR SAVIOR.

To a far greater extent than what they would feel drawn especially close to their Savior while sitting in a church pew on, for example, Palm Sunday or Good Friday, such Christians feel drawn especially close to their Lord and Savior through the celebration of these types and shadows.

NOTE: This does not in any way demean the celebration of Palm Sunday or Easter, it’s simply a fact that Christians who choose to thus celebrate the biblical Feasts, feel especially close to their Savior at the times of the biblical feasts or “types and shadows”.

It is important to know and to understand that probably at least 90% of all the Christians who thus celebrate these biblical types and shadows (aka “Hebraic roots”) do not do so because they feel that they MUST AND SHOULD do so, but out of a simple love for their Savior and an understanding of how each and every aspect of these Feasts and celebrations point to, AND WERE FULFILLED BY HIM.


UNFORTUNATELY, THOUGH, a minority of Christians (which although a minority, nevertheless happen to number quite a few thousand in the world) have gone way off-track with these worthwhile observances and celebrations, and assert and insist that these types and shadows MUST AND SHOULD be observed, and that the commandments to observe them were never superseded by the New Covenant once the antitype had come, and the commandments to observe them therefore still fully apply to all Christians.

This has led to the over-reaction of another group of Christians, who have reacted to this heresy by throwing a blanket inscribed with the accusation of Old Testament biblical Law-obedience over any and all Christians who choose to observe and celebrate these biblical types and shadows.

This blanket accusation, however, nevertheless conveniently excludes the observance and celebration of any of the man-introduced festivals and observances, such as Christmas, Easter, Palm Sunday, St. Patrick’s Day, etc, etc, etc.

Some who react to the heretics in this way will even denounce any and all STUDY of these types and shadows as reverting to the Law, not recognizing the fact that there is a great deal of worth in studying the types and shadows which point to our Savior (as Paul wrote, “ALL Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”, 2Tim.3: 16).

This over-reaction in effect binds all Christians by a new type of (a supposed) biblical Law which prohibits the observance of certain celebrations and festivals (the biblical types and shadows, aka “Hebrew roots”), while permitting others (Christmas, Palm Sunday, Good Friday, St, Patrick’s Day, etc, etc).

But who exactly is responsible then, for this lack of unity that has crept in among brothers in Christ, if not those who assert and insist that these types and shadows MUST AND SHOULD be observed, and that the commandments to observe them were never superseded by the New Covenant once the antitype had come, and the commandments to observe them therefore still fully apply to all Christians?

Shouldn’t the lack of unity and misunderstandings brought about among the anti-(so-called) “Hebraic roots” and pro-(so-called) “Hebraic roots” Christians be bridged by the acknowledgment of ALL that those who assert and insist that these types and shadows MUST AND SHOULD be observed are heretics and have no part with the rest of the brothers from both groups?

This may sound extremely harsh, but what would the apostle Paul and the other apostles have said?

Ananias

Well this is what Paul said;

1 Tim 1:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1 Tim 1:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1 Tim 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1 Tim 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1 Tim 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

[ananias]

Do I love the biblical Feasts? Yes.

However, here are two real-life examples that I am aware of:

I know one couple very well who had been going to the same church for over 30 years.

About two years ago, the new Pastor began to make certain changes:

Church services were changed from Sunday to Saturday. Was this bad in itself? No. But it didn't stop there.

The congregation began to be taught that they MUST rest from sunset every Friday night to sunset every Saturday night. The Pastor made sure they all understood that it was imperative that meals etc were prepared before sunset on Friday, and that absolutely NO work was to be done on Sabbath.

He also began to insist that all the members of the congregation MUST begin to faithfully observe all the biblical holy days. Basically, all the "Jewish holidays" were introduced, and the Pastor began to place a great deal of pressure on them, teaching that God REQUIRES these things from all Christians - and Christmas and Easter were thrown out the window.

The Pastor DOES teach his flock that unless they observe Sabbath (on Saturday) and participate in all these biblical feasts etc, they are not saved - since if they were saved, they would want to do these things, according to the Pastor.

The system became more and more legalistic, and the couple eventually couldn't take it any more and left the congregation - and it was a very painful decision for them to make, since this church had been their spiritual home church for so many years. The male members of the congregation and the Pastor even all grew beards to look like Jews!

I know another man who was in OUR church. A "Messianic" group got hold of him - and to cut a long story short, he eventually had himself circumsized and HE TOLD ME that I'm not saved because I go to church on Sunday and celebrate Christmas and Easter with my family - because, he made sure I "understand" - these are pagan feasts.

As far as I'm concerned, no matter what the origin is of the traditional Christian Festivals such as Christmas, etc, as long as the one who observes or celebtrates it is remebering CHRIST in his/her heart, there's no law to say that he/she shouldn't do so - AND NEITHER is there a law that says that those who choose to celebrate and observe the biblical feasts (aka "Hebraic roots"), he/she should be free to do so - but NOBODY should be told that they MUST or MUST not keep Sunday, or do this or that.

THERE ARE Christians and Messianic groups in the world which DO teach Christans that they MUST NOT observe this and that day or festivals and they GOD REQUIRES that they keep this and that day and festival instead.

Some of the words in my OP are:



It is precisely because many Gentile Christians have learned how each and every detail of each and every one of the Feasts and celebrations point to the salvation provided for us by our Savior, that they have learned how these Feasts were celebrated, and have begun to celebrate them WITH ALL THE EMPHASIS BEING ON HOW EACH AND EVERY ASPECT of each and every Feast POINTS TO, AND WAS FULFILLED BY, THEIR SAVIOR.

To a far greater extent than what they would feel drawn especially close to their Savior while sitting in a church pew on, for example, Palm Sunday or Good Friday, such Christians feel drawn especially close to their Lord and Savior through the celebration of these types and shadows.

NOTE: This does not in any way demean the celebration of Palm Sunday or Easter, it’s simply a fact that Christians who choose to thus celebrate the biblical Feasts, feel especially close to their Savior at the times of the biblical feasts or “types and shadows”.

It is important to know and to understand that probably at least 90% of all the Christians who thus celebrate these biblical types and shadows (aka “Hebraic roots”) do not do so because they feel that they MUST AND SHOULD do so, but out of a simple love for their Savior and an understanding of how each and every aspect of these Feasts and celebrations point to, AND WERE FULFILLED BY HIM.

UNFORTUNATELY, THOUGH, a minority of Christians (which although a minority, nevertheless happen to number quite a few thousand in the world) have gone way off-track with these worthwhile observances and celebrations, and assert and insist that these types and shadows MUST AND SHOULD be observed, and that the commandments to observe them were never superseded by the New Covenant once the antitype had come, and the commandments to observe them therefore still fully apply to all Christians.

Ananias

I did not paint everyone with the same brush in my OP. I was and am still talking about those people (like my friend's Pastor) who INSIST that Christians MUST return to their "Hebraic roots" by dropping Christimas, Easter, Sunday-worship etc etc, and by NOT working on Saturday and by practicing the biblical feasts. THERE CERTAINLY ARE Christians who are teaching that Christians who still celebrate Christmas, Easter etc, are part of BABYLON mother-church - and this has caused the term "Hebrew roots" to get a bad name and to be assoicated with fallen-from-grace legalism in the minds of many Christians. And it's no wonder - because people like my friend's ex-Pastor are teaching heresy.

I think that most people who read my OP and my other posts understood that this is what I am referring to.

God bless,

ananias

[walked]

ananias,

I know you don't want to here this but I'm laying it out here for not just you but for the benefit of anyone else reading this thread who may be thinking: we as servants of God are to judge others publicly as is being done on this thread or, in private: Anyone with the resources to go to a church regularly, also has the resources to obtain a bible for the purpose of learning who they are to follow for their justification, so in Gods eyes there is no excuse for any blind followers in the church situation you have described, God has provided His way to learn from Him: in His written word (the bible) for every individual to learn from Him as to who or what to follow for their justification/restoration back into fellowship with Him.
If a new member comes to your friends church seeking fellowship, I suggest, if they chose to share and worship there that they abide and submit to what is taught there in humility, or leave to share and be fed elsewhere, and leave the judging of those they left behind to our Lord in His day.
If any of the current members of the congregation of your friends church choose to stay to plant seeds of truth there in submission and humility to that church, then I say more power to them ! and they will be rewarded by our Lord if our Lord choses to causes those seeds to grow.
otherwise....

...The congregation at your friends church will be judged by our creator and not by you, your friend, your friends pastor or anyone reading this forum post.
...And, your friends pastor will be judged by our creator and not by you, your friend, your friends congregation or anyone reading this forum post.

A choice to bring that pastor and his congregation here publicly to be judged by men is: a choice to practice judgment publicly of our Masters servants as to whether that pastor and/or his flock is "justified"
You chose the title, vocabulary and subject of this thread, not me, I am just responding to it with the wisdom God has revealed to me by my feeding on and following Gods written word (the bible) and disciplining myself to it (the bible), and not following or disciplining myself to a man-pastor, man-teacher or mans-doctrines nor do I any longer follow and discipline myself to a god with character attributes I have created or imagined.... as many who do not feed on Gods word seem to do so very frequently in the world today.

So, you can chose to be insulted by what I try to bring here, or you can chose to see past the thorns in my words used here to see what I am pointing at which is: to practice mercy, love, patience and compassion for His creation just as He does and not judge, label or categorize the body of Christ, the lost or the unsaved because all are His inheritance.... that is one thing not taught by men but clearly taught by God: that all of creation is Christ inheritance, not just the saved creatures but the unsaved and lost creatures also are His inheritance, and He will return to claim what He purchased on the cross no matter if men have judged, labeled or categorized them or not, they are His inheritance and He is the one who will justly and purely judge, label and categorize us, all of us !

[ananias]

No, I think you still misunderstand me....
I do not think that you or the author of the thread believe we are justified by observing laws in Torah, I hope you believe we will be blessed by God if we choose to observe laws in Torah, but that is another subject.

Maybe my misunderstanding is that the OP made assumptions about the motives and beliefs of christians who chose to observe portions of Torah, even with out any such person revealing or communicating any such motives or beliefs.


Hello, walked. I have read carefully what you've said in this and your later posts. Please read carefully what I'm saying below:

There is a huge difference between choosing to walk in Torah by keeping Sabbath and observing Festivals, etc (on one hand), and (on the other hand) believing that God requires that we walk in Torah equally as much today as He required it of the Israelites before the days of the New Covenant.

There is nothing wrong with going back to the biblical roots, or Hebrew roots, or whatever you want to call it, by observing Sabbath and the Festivals IF this is done out of choice.

But there are Christians in the world who proagate THE DOCTRINE that our salvation comes by grace + obedience to Torah - and this DOCTRINE is heresy. I'm judging THE DOCTRINE and not the people who are caught up in the false doctrine. There are MANY Christians today who are confused because they think that God disapproves if they DON'T obey Torah and walk in Torah - and this is because there are a number of Christians who are teaching their flocks exactly that.

In my Op I said that 90% of all Christians who choose to observe the "Hebrew roots" or biblical festivals do so because the love them (I'm included in the group which loves the Feasts of the Lord, and I've argued in other threads in favor of observing Saturday sabbath IF the person doing so, is doing so out of LOVE for God and not out of a conscience that says he/she MUST do these things).

There is nothing wrong with CHOOSING to observe Sabbath and the Feasts of the LORD" because the Spirit of Christ has given you/me or anyone else a LOVE for them and we are INSPIRED to do so.

But the moment anyone says "We as Christians SHOULD go back to Hebrew roots", he is teaching false doctrine - and I'm not judging the person - but his doctrine. And THERE ARE people who teach that Christians SHOULD "go back to Hebrew roots" and SHOULD NOT celebrate Christmas, Easter, etc.

Yet it is for freedom that Christ has set us free, and I'm free to observe and celebrate whatever feasts I choose.

The question "Hebrew roots or justification by Law?" seeks to motivate all those who teach Hebrew roots, to question which of the two "Hebrew roots" they subscribe to - grace + CHOOSING to observe Sabbath and the Feasts, or grace + obedience to Law?, because the second one (grace + obedience to Law) is A FALSE DOCTRINE.

And in the same way that no-one who observes Sabbath and the biblical Feasts likes being falsely accused of practicing heresy or of "having gone back to the Law", no-one who observes Sunday, Christmas and Easter likes being told that these are pagan feasts and that they therefore should not celebrate them, since if they do they are part of "Babylon mother-church". How many times haven't they been told this by those who observe "Hebrew roots"?

There is a difference, don't you think, between judging our brothers in Christ and judging doctrine?

Isn't your accusation against those whose statements don't agree with your doctrine, that we are judging THE PEOPLE (instead of what I am actually doing - judging THE DOCTRINE), just trying to use bullying tactics against me or any of your brothers in Christ in order that we dare not challenge any doctrine you believe is right?

I'm certainly not judging you or anyone else - I'm referring to DOCTRINE and not to the people who get caught up with false doctrine.

And whether you falsely accuse me or not, I'm not going to back down from what I have asked - "Hebrew roots or justification through obedience to Law"?

ananias

[ananias]

The doctrine which teaches that even though we are justified by grace through faith in Jesus, it is neverthless still neccessary to follow Torah, is a false doctrine, and it is heresy - it is not Christian. But I'm not judging the people who adhere to this heresy, I'm judging the heretic doctrine.

As Paul taught,

"Why then the Law (Torah)? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to those to whom it had been promised, being ordained through angels in the Mediator's hand." (Gal.3: 19).

The word UNTIL means until. I would encourage anyone who is confused about this to take the time read up to post #111 in the following thread:

http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthread.php?t=139063

It may be one of the greatest lessons in Christian theology as taught by the apostles of Jesus you will ever learn.

ananias

[walked]

ananias,

I understand and agree with your disagreement with any doctrine that promotes mans justification by any other means than the righteousness Christ Jesus Emanuel has offered to share on the cross with any man, that is why my first post on your thread had a truck load of scripture quotes to shine light on the falsehood of that doctrine/belief. where I disagree with you is in your approach when confronting this doctrine/belief.

I do not like to but sometimes do quote scripture on these forums, I do not like to because I would have to quote to many other scriptures to validate the interpretation of the subject scripture I want to quote...
That being said,
I quoted a truck load scriptures here on this thread from the books of Genesis an Exodus here to show that none of the reasons God gave Mosaic law were for mans justification. I did this to confront the falsehood in the doctrine you speak of and are also confronting... I think this is the way to go about confronting false doctrine when justification is involved.
Because justification has to do with a souls eternal destiny and no man is not qualified in that area yet, but if the truth in Gods word is used to judge or correct a lie or men following that lie it will have been Gods word that judged or corrected them and not my words that judged or corrected them... and I will remain blameless of judging my fellows
I hope you understand what I am meaning.
By confronting falsehood with Gods word, His word judges them, and although His word was used by a man to reveal truth in the face of falsehood, the man who used Gods word to confront lies/falsehoods that man stands blameless when being accused of judging his fellows... as I have accused you of doing here on this thread.

We/man are qualified to judge in area's that do not lead to a mans eternal destiny, meaning: If I judge myself or another man (as I did you here on this thread) If I judge myself or another man when the judged offense committed does not lead to eternal death, then I have not judged them but corrected or exposed them, which ever the case may turn out to be when the dust settles.
But and this is a big but, when speaking of the word "justification" it has to do with eternal life or eternal death, which ever the case may be and where man is not authorized let alone qualified to judge.

So, choosing the words "justified by observing the Law" in the title and context of this thread is, this topic is off limits to mans judging because the word justified is used it is best to use Gods word to validate, correct, justify, convict or bring light and truth in this area, but the one who is practicing judgment on the subject/topic of justification is not off limits because his offense does not lead to his eternal life or death (his justification)
So, when I am dealing with the subject/topic of justification, I will shine light on or expose falsehood under that topic/subject whether in a man or in a doctrine of men, I will use Gods word (scripture quotes) as I did in my first post here on your thread to correct falsehoods, condemn practices or practitioners, convict hearts, validate or rebuke doctrines or beliefs of men in the area of justification.

Again, I hope you understand what I am trying my best to express with out offending you.

[ananias]

ananias,

I understand and agree with your disagreement with any doctrine that promotes mans justification by any other means than the righteousness Christ Jesus Emanuel has offered to share on the cross with any man, that is why my first post on your thread had a truck load of scripture quotes to shine light on the falsehood of that doctrine/belief.

where I disagree with you is in your approach when confronting this doctrine/belief.

it will have been Gods word that judged or corrected them and not my words that judged or corrected them... and I will remain blameless of judging my fellows



With respect, walked, you have not been blameless of judging your fellows in this thread, for not only did you choose to make a negative remark about Emanate's character in an earlier post in this thread, but you have falsely judged me and my motives for the thread, and falsely accused me.

The only one who has been doing the judging of brothers in this thread is you, walked - instead of sticking to the subject at hand, you began to judge Emanate (even making a negative remark about his character) and also, me.

Please refrain now from any further false accusations and judging and making negative remarks about another's character, or attempting to dictate to me how I should go about bringing up the subject of this particular false doctrine, and stick to the subject of the false doctrine.

I say and ask this humbly and respectfully.

ananias.

[timmyb]

well... i know it's a bit late to join in and this has probably already been said before...

while we as Gentiles are not required to keep all the ordinances and feasts we are required to keep the part of the law that requires righteousness the moral aspect of the law...

while we can talk about how to keep Torah, that's where the Pharisees missed it and it drove them to religious legalism... If we tried to understand the nature and character of God through his ordinances and feasts and Torah, that's what will have the true results, the results that God wants, a heart that is alive on the inside.. Torah is far more than a rule book, it's the testimony of the heart of God...

For example, David... he never wondered about how to keep the sabbath, he looked at God through the Sabbath... and it was through his meditations that he was able to identify the Christ, understand the end times, and know the mercy of the Lord...

now I believe that if a person falls in love with God by meditating on his law, he won't have to worry about keeping every aspect of the law... it was never God's intention for man to be justified by law... it was by FAITH that even Abraham did what he did, and it was always by FAITH... Faith produced good works in Abraham, Faith gave David the will to meditate on the law... we are never justified by law at anytime nor were we

I will say again... if the law is a rule book to you, you miss it.. it's all a means to know God, not a set of regulations...

[walked]

With respect, walked, you have not been blameless of judging your fellows in this thread,
I have not trespassed in my judgment, I have not judged anyones ones justification-eternal destiny.
Scripture teaches that we trespass if we judge another's justification-eternal destiny.
Scripture does not teach that we can not judge another whether they trespass or not, scripture teaches that a man is not in a position to judge another mans eternal destiny!


for not only did you choose to make a negative remark about Emanate's character in an earlier post in this thread
I thanked Emanate for revealing a bit of his character, I did not make any comments on his character nor did I judged his character.



you have falsely judged me and my motives for the thread, and falsely accused me.
I have never in any of my post Judged or questioned your motives, as a matter of fact in my last post I compliment your motives but questioned your methods.



Please refrain now from any further false accusations and judging and making negative remarks about another's character
Please quote me where I have made accusations about another's character ?



attempting to dictate to me how I should go about bringing up the subject of this particular false doctrine, and stick to the subject of the false doctrine.

I say and ask this humbly and respectfully.

ananias.
No where have I attempted to dictate to you how to present your thoughts, I have only presented how I would and do present my thoughts on various subjects and the reasons why I do it that way per different subjects....


I have not and will not judge anyone in regard to their (justification -eternal destiny) as has been being done on this thread that is not a position man has been placed in to judge.
I have and will continue to judge anyone who positions themselves to judge the justification and eternal destiny of their fellows.

[timmyb]

well to be an intercessor before God, Jesus has to be a man... Hebrews 7:25... he lives to make intercession before the father... the principle the angels don't make intercession... the saints around the throne and Jesus... all men with glorified bodies

[walked]

well to be an intercessor before God, Jesus has to be a man... Hebrews 7:25... he lives to make intercession before the father... the principle the angels don't make intercession... the saints around the throne and Jesus... all men with glorified bodies

Amen to that, and what an informed and compassionate intercessor He can be because He walked on earth as a man.
And what a perfectly qualified and just judge of man He is now and will be of our eternal destiny.

[ananias]

well... i know it's a bit late to join in and this has probably already been said before...

while we as Gentiles are not required to keep all the ordinances and feasts we are required to keep the part of the law that requires righteousness the moral aspect of the law...

while we can talk about how to keep Torah, that's where the Pharisees missed it and it drove them to religious legalism... If we tried to understand the nature and character of God through his ordinances and feasts and Torah, that's what will have the true results, the results that God wants, a heart that is alive on the inside.. Torah is far more than a rule book, it's the testimony of the heart of God...

For example, David... he never wondered about how to keep the sabbath, he looked at God through the Sabbath... and it was through his meditations that he was able to identify the Christ, understand the end times, and know the mercy of the Lord...

now I believe that if a person falls in love with God by meditating on his law, he won't have to worry about keeping every aspect of the law... it was never God's intention for man to be justified by law... it was by FAITH that even Abraham did what he did, and it was always by FAITH... Faith produced good works in Abraham, Faith gave David the will to meditate on the law... we are never justified by law at anytime nor were we

I will say again... if the law is a rule book to you, you miss it.. it's all a means to know God, not a set of regulations...

Thank you, TimmyB. I agree.

I think we need to remember that Jesus is the last Adam, and that God only sees us with respect to two human beings - either the first Adam, or the last Adam. We are either still in the first Adam, or we have been born-again into the last Adam; and the last Adam fulfilled the Law - both the types and shadows in the Law and the prophets which point to Him (the Sabbaths, the mo'adim, etc, etc), as well as the righteous moral requirements of the Law - something which we human beings could not do.

And just as we died with Christ when he died, so IN HIM we have fulfilled the Law and are clothed in HIS righteousness, for He who said,

"For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled." (Mat.5: 18),

also said,

"Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill." (Mat.5: 17).

The Law has been fulfilled by those of us who are IN CHRIST, and WE cannot fulfill the Law AGAIN, and the only NEW commandment in the NEW Covenant which Christ gave and that we are to obey, is,

"I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another. By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love toward one another." (Joh.13: 34-35).

Being INSPIRED to actively show our love for God, the One who first loved us, by keeping Sabbath Holy unto Him, and being INSPIRED by the Spirit of Christ to love the biblical Feasts which point to Him and to celebrate or observe them, does not mean we are FULFILLING the Law AGAIN.

But if we believe WE SHOULD do these things, then we have gone back to the Law, and we are attempting to ourselves fulfill again what Christ has already fulfilled.

The New Covenant is not like the covenant which God gave to His people through Moses on Mount Sinai - the Torah which has been fulfilled by Christ and all those IN HIM who he represents before God, is written in our hearts and placed in our minds by the Spirit of Christ who is teh author of Torah.

Therefore whether or not we keep Sabbath, and whether or not we celebrate and observe the Feasts of the LORD (which are the types and shadows which teach us of our Savior and His salvation), has absolutely no bearing on our standing with God - since we are IN HIM who fulfilled Torah on our behalf.

And so those (who, as I said in my OP, are in the minority)) who teach that it is necessary not only to have faith in Yeshua and to keep the only NEW commandment He gave, but that it is also necessary to walk in the Torah God gave to the people through Moses (as the Israelites were required to do BEFORE Torah was fuflled by Jesus), are teaching a false doctrine which is confusing Christians and bringing the words "Hebrew roots" into disrepute.

ananias

[ananias]

I have not trespassed in my judgment, I have not judged anyones ones justification-eternal destiny.
Scripture teaches that we trespass if we judge another's justification-eternal destiny.
Scripture does not teach that we can not judge another whether they trespass or not, scripture teaches that a man is not in a position to judge another mans eternal destiny!



I thanked Emanate for revealing a bit of his character, I did not make any comments on his character nor did I judged his character.



I have never in any of my post Judged or questioned your motives, as a matter of fact in my last post I compliment your motives but questioned your methods.



Please quote me where I have made accusations about another's character ?

No where have I attempted to dictate to you how to present your thoughts, I have only presented how I would and do present my thoughts on various subjects and the reasons why I do it that way per different subjects....


I have not and will not judge anyone in regard to their (justification -eternal destiny) as has been being done on this thread that is not a position man has been placed is to judge.
I have and will continue to judge anyone who positions themselves to judge the justification and eternal destiny of their fellows.

The Lord Jesus doesn't want me to say anything more about any of the above to you - it is enough. He stands here in the midst of us, and we forget that.

I admit that I could have chosen the way I said things a little more carefully - that tongue-in-cheek remark about the Rabbi tearing his hair out of his beard in a rage could have been taken up in the wrong way. I remembered images of rabbis fighting with one another about doctrinal differnces I saw in a movie once - I can't remember which movie now, but I thought it was hilarious because I recognized some of us Christians in it - and I had this image in my mind when I made that remark.

I don't have a bad attitude towards Rabbis or Jews - especially because our Savior is a Jew, and there is a Jew seated at the right hand of God - and I disagree with any notion that He no longer has a Jewish etnicity - He is the Lion of the tribe of....JUDAH - meaning, my Lord is a Jew.

My heart aches for the Rabbis and those who follow Judaism, as well as for those Jews who follow Eastern reliigons (there are many, these days). I sense the yearning of Yeshua for His brethren, just as I sense the yearning of Joseph for his brethren in all those years he spent in Egypt, every time I read the account in Genesis. I can't wait for the day I can witness the reconciliation of Jesus and His brethren - whether I witness it from heaven, or from the earth. I do not have a bad attitide towards Jews, even though my choice of words may make it seem that way - as ACCM commented I seem to be anti-semitic.

But I'm not overcome by a false and unwarranted exaltation of Rabbis and Jews either. Jews are no better than Gentiles - and vice versa. We have to be careful when we go back to the Hebraic roots of our faith not to give unwarranted credit to man, and not to give unwarranted credit to the Torah God gave to the people through Moses - which was fulfilled by Yeshua on our behalf.

God bless,

ananias

[IPet2_9]

and I disagree with any notion that He no longer has a Jewish etnicity - He is the Lion of the tribe of....JUDAH -

Even Jesus was Jewish by adoption. His biological father was God. His adopted father was Joseph.

[Mograce2U]

Well spoken Ananias #65 (http://bibleforums.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1786783&postcount=65) - these are my sentiments as well (yet agreeing with 1 Pet2 9's disclaimer!)

[ananias]

Even Jesus was Jewish by adoption. His biological father was God. His adopted father was Joseph.

Errr... wasn't Mary Jewish - and a descendant of David?

ananias

[threebigrocks]

Gentlemen,

May I remind you to have a look at the rules for this forum, and make sure you are walking in accordance with the intent laid down by our Board Administrators.

Thank you.

I will bring this post back to everyone's attention. Let's all take a deep breathe and watch how we are addressing each other in this discussion. There's a line that we are getting too close to at the moment.

[ananias]

Well spoken Ananias #65 (http://bibleforums.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1786783&postcount=65) - these are my sentiments as well (yet agreeing with 1 Pet2 9's disclaimer!)


Thanks, Mograce2U. This thread went a little haywire somewhere along the line, but thank the Lord that TmmyB, you and 1Pet2: 9 ended it nicely.

ananias

[timmyb]

and by principle, if Jesus is still a man in heaven... it means that he is a Jewish man in heaven, and he will be a Jewish man on the earth ruling the world...

the promises are still to the Jew first... don't be arrogant toward them... there are elements even in Judaism that testify to the truths of Christianity... They have plenty of advantages, to them were committed the oracles of God (Romans 3:1)....

[StevenC]

It's good that you find that statement outrageous - that means that so would the unbelieving Jews; and so at last, by Christians taking ownership of the Festivals, celebrations and holy days which are rightfully ours and telling the world that we are Isarel and are Jews, the unbelieving Jews will finally be provoked to jealousy the way they should be by the Gentiles. Unfortunately Christmas, Easter, etc and the Gentile Christian prejudice against the biblical holy days does not do this.

What provokes the Jews to jealousy is our claim to the inherit the Kingdom of God, not our claiming things about feast days.

Just my opinion.

-Steven

[ananias]

What provokes the Jews to jealousy is our claim to the inherit the Kingdom of God, not our claiming things about feast days.

Just my opinion.

-Steven

Yes - what BHS said below is correct:

Ananias,

The point about Jews becoming jealous I think is a difference in how we think Paul terms jealousy.

I believe what Paul is saying, is that Gentiles are to provoke the Jews to jealousy, not by causing anger, hostility, suspicion and mistrust (which is so often the case), but by causing them to think that Gentiles now have an even greater advantage in knowing the Lord.

When we know the Hebrew scriptures even better than the Jews, express our gratitude and love for them and Israel, that is when they will take notice of our sincere faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel). And prayerfully come to recognize Jesus as their Messiah!

Blessings,
BHS

I agree with what you and BHS have said, StevenC. What I said was, with hindsight, just a stupid thought.

It is interesting that there has been some sharp criticism in the Israeli media about the Christian "Hebrew-roots" movement and the Christian Zionist movement. Some Jews, it seems, do not take kindly to Christians celebrating Jewish feasts and pretending to be Jews. Christian support of Israel and Christian representation in the Knesset was also sharply criticised. The article spoke about the fact that Christians are always open to sharing their faith with any Jew who asks, and the article said something about Christian Zionists who will "Love you to (spiritual) death".

I should have made a note of the particular link I refer to above. It was pasted by someone else here at BibleForums in a different thread somewhere, but I don't remember now which thread it was, or if it was a few days ago or a week ago.

So you're right. But are we to stop celebrating the Feasts of the LORD and loving the Hebrew language and the Hebrew roots of our faith because it angers Jews?

ananias

[ananias]

and by principle, if Jesus is still a man in heaven... it means that he is a Jewish man in heaven, and he will be a Jewish man on the earth ruling the world...

the promises are still to the Jew first... don't be arrogant toward them... there are elements even in Judaism that testify to the truths of Christianity... They have plenty of advantages, to them were committed the oracles of God (Romans 3:1)....

Shalom Timmy,

Yes - as it is written:

"... do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, it is not you that bears the root, but the root bears you. You will say then, The branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be high-minded, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, fear lest He also may not spare you either! Behold then the kindness, and the severity of God; on those having fallen, severity; but on you, kindness, if you continue in the kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. " (Rom.11: 18-22).

The Lord knows my heart and my thoughts, so I shouldn't even have to say that the last thing I have either in my heart or in my attitude toward unsaved Jews is arrogance toward them, but I'm saying that here for the sake of any who feel that that's what my heart and attitude is.

The Lord also knows how much I love Hebrew culture, the Hebrew language, Messianic music, the Feasts of the LORD and a whole lot more.

But I do not exalt Rabbis, Jews or Israel with an unwarranted exaltation either.

The reason why the oracles of God were committed to them was not because of any merit on their part, nor because they were a special kind people above all others - the reason why the oracles of God were committed to them was because of

(1) God's mercy and grace and because of God's mercy and grace alone; and

(2) Because God had promised mankind (Adam and Eve) by announcing it to Satan in Adam's hearing, that the seed of the woman would bruise Satan's head (Gen.3: 15); and

(3) because Abraham believed God, and it was counted to Abraham for righteousness. It wasn't Abraham's righteousness, mind you, that was credited to Abraham for righteousness - it was his faith in the Word of God that was credited to him for righteousness.

What has happened in Christian circles - especially among the Hebrew roots movent - is the opposite extreme from anti-semitism : unwarranted exaltation of Jews, Israel and anything Jewish.

I know that Jesus loves the Jews with a very deep love - yet He called all those who were troubling His Gentile disciples "those who say they are Jews and are not", and "a synagogue of Satan" (Rev.2: 9).

We should keep a proper balance in our thinking and be realistic about things - the Gentiles are not grafted into the Olive tree among the branches which have been broken off (Rom.11: 17); and many of the branches which have been broken off actively fight the spread of the gospel of Messiah in Israel.

And the last thing we should do is to think that God requires that we obey Jesus through faith AND obey the Torah which HE kept, obeyed and fulfilled on our behalf - so that all those who are IN HIM through faith IN HIM have already fulfilled Torah IN HIM, and we cannot ADD to His FINISHED work.

ananias