Children having a "sin nature" and child abuse?

[Sherry W]

What do you think of parents who use the excuse "children have a sin nature" for child abuse. I believe in discipline when needed, but beating "original sin" out of them doesn't seem right to me. After all, children do not "ask" to be born with original sin.

[Bethany67]

What do I think of them? Haul their butts before a judge and send them to jail with the full force of the law.

[Sherry W]

What do I think of them? Haul their butts before a judge and send them to jail with the full force of the law.
That is a good idea, or at least get CPS involved.

[ServantofTruth]

The 'rod' how often and for what 'offence' ,is a topic that talks about smacking and whether it is biblical or child abuse. SofTy. :idea:

[Tanya~]

What do you think of parents who use the excuse "children have a sin nature" for child abuse. I believe in discipline when needed, but beating "original sin" out of them doesn't seem right to me. After all, children do not "ask" to be born with original sin.

:hmm: I've never even heard of this. Are you saying that you know of someone who beats up their children just because they have a sin nature, and not because they have committed a specific act of disobedience? Maybe if you gave an example it would be easier to understand what you're really asking here.

[moonglow]

Sherry you seem to be really stuck on this subject of spanking vs the bible...you have another thread titled: "childhood spankings and Masochism" and one title "spanking atheist". I don't know if you are struggling with some sort of issue yourself on spanking vs what the bible says or what here but that's three threads on this topic. On the childhood spanking and masochism you also brought up stuff that was more about child abuse then what a true spanking is...yet you seem to think spanking atheist with a bible is ok... :confused

People clearly explained to you what spanking was vs abuse on that other thread...I don't know how we can be any clearer on this topic. You can post in private on the form titled chat to mods if you need to talk to someone in private about any issues you might be having. I am hoping you can expand past this topic sometime soon!

God bless

[Bethany67]

:hmm: I've never even heard of this. Are you saying that you know of someone who beats up their children just because they have a sin nature, and not because they have committed a specific act of disobedience? Maybe if you gave an example it would be easier to understand what you're really asking here.

There was a horrific case here in the UK a few years back, a couple of miles from where I live actually - the aunt/guardian claimed that the girl was demon-possessed and was backed up by a couple of churches including the infamous UCKG cult:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Climbie

The boyfriend described how he thought Victoria was Satan and that no matter how hard he beat her, she did not react.

[moonglow]

There was a horrific case here in the UK a few years back, a couple of miles from where I live actually - the aunt/guardian claimed that the girl was demon-possessed and was backed up by a couple of churches including the infamous UCKG cult:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Climbie

The boyfriend described how he thought Victoria was Satan and that no matter how hard he beat her, she did not react.

Yes sadly there are people, including those who say they are Christians that abuse scriptures in order to abuse others...either verbally, emotionally or physically. Clearly they aren't balanced and aren't following the basic teachings of the bible. Every religion has people who abuse their beliefs in order to abuse others (or their religious/or other beliefs ARE just flat abusive). Its an ugly side of people for sure.

God bless

[Lorren]

We all have a sin nature... no reason for child abuse.

[Sherry W]

:hmm: I've never even heard of this. Are you saying that you know of someone who beats up their children just because they have a sin nature, and not because they have committed a specific act of disobedience? Maybe if you gave an example it would be easier to understand what you're really asking here.
Many people quote Proverbs where it says "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him"

[HisLeast]

Many people quote Proverbs where it says "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him"

Clearly the proverbs don't advocate beatings for the sake of beatings. It advocates the rod of correction when necessary.

[Tanya~]

Many people quote Proverbs where it says "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him"

So are you saying that such people start each day by beating their child, because of this verse? Or that they beat their child all day long quoting this verse? Help me out here.

[Sherry W]

So are you saying that such people start each day by beating their child, because of this verse? Or that they beat their child all day long quoting this verse? Help me out here.
No, but have you heard of Richard Fugate or Michael Pearl? They wrote books on spanking advocating even starting with infants with a 1/8" to 3/16" diameter wooden dowels.

http://www.stoptherod.net/biblical-child-training-excerpt.html

http://stoptherod.net/ttuac.html

http://stoptherod.net/index.html

[Tanya~]

I haven't heard of them, no. I'm trying to get at what your point is with the OP. Do they advocate 'beating original sin out of them?'

[Lady Ashanti]

What do you think of parents who use the excuse "children have a sin nature" for child abuse. I believe in discipline when needed, but beating "original sin" out of them doesn't seem right to me. After all, children do not "ask" to be born with original sin.

Sis,

Parents, [adults], have a sin nature as well however I do not see the Lord "abusing" us to get it out. He does discipline with love though.

I believe that children are much easier to "work" obedience, and faith in God into than adults because they haven't been "jaded" by their experiences, yet.

Here are two scriptures which speak of disciplining children, [in three translations]:

Ephesians 6:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=6&verse=4&version=50&context=verse)
And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord.

Colossians 3:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=3&verse=21&version=50&context=verse)
Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.

Ephesians 6:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=6&verse=4&version=76&context=verse)
Fathers, don't make your children angry. Instead, train them and teach them the ways of the Lord as you raise them.
Colossians 3:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=3&verse=21&version=76&context=verse)
Fathers, don't make your children bitter. If you do, they will lose hope.

Ephesians 6:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=6&verse=4&version=65&context=verse)
Fathers, don't exasperate your children by coming down hard on them. Take them by the hand and lead them in the way of the Master.
Colossians 3: 21
Parents, don't come down too hard on your children or you'll crush their spirits.
Blessings...

[Godslittleangel]

I remember learning htis in my education class, the puritans had this view that children were evil or corrupted with sin and neededto be straightned out, you don't wnat to know what htey did then, they even executed children if they didn't behave or committed enough offenses (not obeying).

[Believe316]

i think that it is a poor excuse to just start to beat them. Can you actually beat sin out?

[Sold Out]

What do you think of parents who use the excuse "children have a sin nature" for child abuse. I believe in discipline when needed, but beating "original sin" out of them doesn't seem right to me. After all, children do not "ask" to be born with original sin.

Well, if this logic were true, even adults would require beatings on a regular basis!

I've not heard of a way to beat the sin nature out of someone. If there is a method, I will sign up for the beating.

[Sandusky]

Oh wow. Those sights you linked to, Sherry, are definitely Not Good. This is what happens when people let their (ill-informed) private interpretations of Scripture inform their consciences, IMO. It's too easy to get everything twisted.

The Bible clearly teaches that Godly parents will discipline their children...What I wonder is how does that truth lead to this philosophy of "child training"? Children are not animals. The constant comparisons to animal training are troubling, to say the least.

I don't think children need to be "trained." They are human beings who need to be raised in families with love and discipline. They are children. Innocent. Discipline is for correction and guidance, not training and for Heaven's sake NOT to drive out their sinful natures.

[Sandusky]

What do you think of parents who use the excuse "children have a sin nature" for child abuse. I believe in discipline when needed, but beating "original sin" out of them doesn't seem right to me. After all, children do not "ask" to be born with original sin.

Another thing...if these people had a correct understanding that baptism cleanses children from original sin, perhaps they wouldn't have been led down this road to begin with.

[Sold Out]

Another thing...if these people had a correct understanding that baptism cleanses children from original sin, perhaps they wouldn't have been led down this road to begin with.

Do you have scripture to support this view?

[Sandusky]

Do you have scripture to support this view?

Romans 5:19 Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous.

Because of Adam's disobedience, all men were made sinners. In Adam, all men die. In Christ, all men may now live. Only God in the flesh could atone for our sins by the eternal sacrifice of Himself.

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins...

Through this sacrifice, God has re-opened the doors to Heaven. Through baptism, we are cleansed of sin and are born again as children of God.

:)

[Sandusky]

So, yes Sold Out, I do have scriptures to support my view...but what is that worth, exactly? If just occurred to me that the people who came up with this concept of "child training" also claim to be getting their views straight from scripture. :(

[Godslittleangel]

I remember learning htis in my education class, the puritans had this view that children were evil or corrupted with sin and neededto be straightned out, you don't wnat to know what htey did then, they even executed children if they didn't behave or committed enough offenses (not obeying).

I want to make sure that it is understood that I don't agree with this, I should have added that afterwards. I was readng through the topic again and saw this and got worred that it may look like I"m on that side but this was just what I learned in my class. I'm not ok with that point of view at all.;)

I think we all are sinners, adult or child, we are human and will fall. So if we need to beat a child cuz they are sinful, then we may as well beat up everyone we see, adult or child cuz we all are sinful. People think violence is bad today....yeah not good. Their (the ones with this excuse) reasoning fell apart. I" not against spanking but there is a line on when its spanking and when its abuse, spanking is not something for everything and a person should not go too far and cross the line to when it becomes beating.

[Tanya~]

The thing is, neither Scripture nor Christians advocate beating children simply because they are sinners. That doesn't even make sense. Not even the strictest, harshest disciplinarians (e.g., the Puritans) did that. Punishment has always been a direct consequence of some action that was determined to be punishable.

People who abuse their children or other people have nothing to do with the Scriptural teaching about discipline or the use of the rod.

[hdt]

No, but have you heard of Richard Fugate or Michael Pearl? They wrote books on spanking advocating even starting with infants with a 1/8" to 3/16" diameter wooden dowels.

http://www.stoptherod.net/biblical-child-training-excerpt.html

http://stoptherod.net/ttuac.html

http://stoptherod.net/index.html

Sherry I haven't heard of Richard Fugate, but the Pearls I have heard of. To me they are very dangerous people! I'm sure they have some good things to say on certain subjects, but they do have some down right insane things to say about others. I read some of the stuff, and if they truly think namecalling and degrading people should be part of ministry.....YIKES! :eek:

[RZ06]

What do you think of parents who use the excuse "children have a sin nature" for child abuse. I believe in discipline when needed, but beating "original sin" out of them doesn't seem right to me. After all, children do not "ask" to be born with original sin.

Are you kidding me? They're people out there who think like this?!

That makes me very sad. That's just horrible...:cry:

I got a newsletter at my childrens pediatrician last time I was there. It mentioned that a baby isn't purposely trying to disobey you and should not be spanked. When I read that, I thought it was an odd thing to put in there, that it would be very sad if parents really thought that...Now I see why.

It's NEVER crossed my mind to spank my baby and my daughter is 2.5 and my youngest is 9 months. I don't think spanking even popped into my mind until my daughter was 18 months old.

[Servant of David]

Original sin and the sins of our fathers are in us when we are born into this world. If you are observant you see the good and bad traits that you have are in your children and what you see in yourself you see in your parents. It's your job to correct the bad traits that is passed through the generations. Your child needs to be trained to be obedient to you. Just as you should show your children by example that you are obedient to God.
Discipline is a form of love. If you allow your children to be disrespectful and disobedient you allow them to be in and they will grow in sin and it will be that much harder for them when they grow up to resist and overcome sin. As a father you are the one that is responsible for all in your house... and if the Lord asks you what you did in razing your children what will you say?