How can God and suffering exist?

[Bthings]

I've thought about this a lot, all i can think of is reasons against God, and none really for Him. So that's why I'm here, I'd like you guys to please help me with that.

I don't mean anything bad against Christian, although i know this might sound like, please don't take it that way. thanks.

Listen, Every single day an attack occurs on children that's ten times deadlier than the attack on the world trade center. (Today's 9/11 spooky.)
It comes from preventable disease like pneumonia, meziles, et cetra. Doctors know that melira is a leading cause taking the lives of 1,000,000 children each year; usually fatal in young people if not treated right away.
The child's final experience often include; fever, shivering, sever pain in the joings, head aches, coffing, vomiting, generalized convolutions, and comma.

Now, we would expect an all powerful, good god to prevent this suffering, unless he had some reason not to. Notice: not just any reason will do.

EX: It will do no good to claim "God doesn't care about the suffering of children"

His reason must such, that it morally justifies his not preventing of pain.

You might think there is some kind of greater good that comes if these 1000s of kids die every day, or some greater evil that might obtain if they were spaired.
Well, *Is* there? Consider all the kinds of goods and evils that we can think of....

Does humanity learn anything useful about milaria that could haven't been otherwise found? Aparently not, we already know how to prevent and treat it.
Does it inspire me and you to become better people? To strive to save the victims?
For the most part............
No. No it doesn't. But even if it did, why should they suffer so that we can be more viritous? This is not a morally justifying reason anyways.

Why should we think we can know the thoughts of a devine mind??
Here's your answer. If God loved us then we would be the first to know the reason he permits bad things to happen. A loving father who has to take his child to the hospitle for a painful treatment will explain what is happening to him/her.
Now maybe we're like very small children to god. But in that case a loving parent would do all that he can to ensure the child that at least they are not alone, and that there is some reason for the pain, and try to comfert them.
So there's every reason to think that we espically would know the reason god permits suffering.

What we find however is that people who often undergo these kinds of pain feel the absence of god rather than his comfert. And many die very young having never believed.

So, after looking that all possible state of affairs in which god could allow suffering we can find that there is no state of affairs.

But then the pain and suffering we all feel is... pointless!
I don't have to tell you that stories from aids to tsunamies can be multiplied well beyond the breaking point of all our hearts.


I just can't really think of one good reason why god allows it.
Can you help give me some?

thank you.

[Tanya~]

Hi B,

These things break God's heart too. They are the result of sin, the curse on the whole planet as a result of sin. Read this article at AnswersinGenesis (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2006/death-and-suffering.asp)which will explain it in more detail.

[OldChurchGuy]

I've thought about this a lot, all i can think of is reasons against God, and none really for Him. So that's why I'm here, I'd like you guys to please help me with that.

I don't mean anything bad against Christian, although i know this might sound like, please don't take it that way. thanks.

Listen, Every single day an attack occurs on children that's ten times deadlier than the attack on the world trade center. (Today's 9/11 spooky.)
It comes from preventable disease like pneumonia, meziles, et cetra. Doctors know that melira is a leading cause taking the lives of 1,000,000 children each year; usually fatal in young people if not treated right away.
The child's final experience often include; fever, shivering, sever pain in the joings, head aches, coffing, vomiting, generalized convolutions, and comma.

Now, we would expect an all powerful, good god to prevent this suffering, unless he had some reason not to. Notice: not just any reason will do.

EX: It will do no good to claim "God doesn't care about the suffering of children"

His reason must such, that it morally justifies his not preventing of pain.

You might think there is some kind of greater good that comes if these 1000s of kids die every day, or some greater evil that might obtain if they were spaired.
Well, *Is* there? Consider all the kinds of goods and evils that we can think of....

Does humanity learn anything useful about milaria that could haven't been otherwise found? Aparently not, we already know how to prevent and treat it.
Does it inspire me and you to become better people? To strive to save the victims?
For the most part............
No. No it doesn't. But even if it did, why should they suffer so that we can be more viritous? This is not a morally justifying reason anyways.

Why should we think we can know the thoughts of a devine mind??
Here's your answer. If God loved us then we would be the first to know the reason he permits bad things to happen. A loving father who has to take his child to the hospitle for a painful treatment will explain what is happening to him/her.
Now maybe we're like very small children to god. But in that case a loving parent would do all that he can to ensure the child that at least they are not alone, and that there is some reason for the pain, and try to comfert them.
So there's every reason to think that we espically would know the reason god permits suffering.

What we find however is that people who often undergo these kinds of pain feel the absence of god rather than his comfert. And many die very young having never believed.

So, after looking that all possible state of affairs in which god could allow suffering we can find that there is no state of affairs.

But then the pain and suffering we all feel is... pointless!
I don't have to tell you that stories from aids to tsunamies can be multiplied well beyond the breaking point of all our hearts.


I just can't really think of one good reason why god allows it.
Can you help give me some?

thank you.

Well thought out and presented. A problem which has plagued relgious leaders of all faiths I believe.

At this point in my life I see the suffering in the world as not so much God's problem as our problem to solve with God's help. Put another way, perhaps the blame is with us for not doing more than with God for not doing enough.

Just a thought.

OldChurchGuy

[jsph110]

i used to ask myself these questions when i used to drink and used to ask other alcoholics the same questions and nobody seems to know the answer why. What i can conclude from all this is that maybe God wants us to pray for the sick like Jesus was about this. when his disciples couldn't cast out the demon, He was shocked at their little faith. Maybe He is still shocked at how little faith christians have who live near sick people. People like Jeremiah raised the dead widow's child back to life. and this other prophet spoke to bones and they came back to life.

lets not blame God, maybe God has given us more power than we can fathom and God is counting on us to be good stewards of His power 'that worketh in us'. Maybe God is asking the same question: how can christians watch all these kids dying from maleria.

Jesus, God in the flesh, suffered alot on this planet. He suffered worse than these children you describe i believe. The fact that we suffer does not mean he doesn't love us. He himself suffered while here.

another thing, keep in mind that these children go somewhere when they die. maybe that place is far better than living on earth. If they had the choice, they'd rather suffer for a while and leave this place for good than survive and stay here for 70 years. who knows. these are just my thoughts.

perhaps these suffering children chose to come to earth to suffer and teach us a lesson. a lesson of compassion. like, i can tell you have alot of compassion for them. am just geusing (if there is anything like life b4 earth, we chose our stations in life but this should not be used as an excuse not to help eleviate suffering). Maybe God sees the bigger picture. Its like when i was young, I would fight the nurse coming to inject me coz i was scared of needles but they forced me coz they knew that it was for my own good that i go through that temporary pain.

thats just my 2 cents.

For i know the plans i have for you, says the Lord.

[markinro]

I've thought about this a lot, all i can think of is reasons against God, and none really for Him. So that's why I'm here, I'd like you guys to please help me with that.

I don't mean anything bad against Christian, although i know this might sound like, please don't take it that way. thanks.

Listen, Every single day an attack occurs on children that's ten times deadlier than the attack on the world trade center. (Today's 9/11 spooky.)
It comes from preventable disease like pneumonia, meziles, et cetra. Doctors know that melira is a leading cause taking the lives of 1,000,000 children each year; usually fatal in young people if not treated right away.
The child's final experience often include; fever, shivering, sever pain in the joings, head aches, coffing, vomiting, generalized convolutions, and comma.

Now, we would expect an all powerful, good god to prevent this suffering, unless he had some reason not to. Notice: not just any reason will do.

EX: It will do no good to claim "God doesn't care about the suffering of children"

His reason must such, that it morally justifies his not preventing of pain.

You might think there is some kind of greater good that comes if these 1000s of kids die every day, or some greater evil that might obtain if they were spaired.
Well, *Is* there? Consider all the kinds of goods and evils that we can think of....

Does humanity learn anything useful about milaria that could haven't been otherwise found? Aparently not, we already know how to prevent and treat it.
Does it inspire me and you to become better people? To strive to save the victims?
For the most part............
No. No it doesn't. But even if it did, why should they suffer so that we can be more viritous? This is not a morally justifying reason anyways.

Why should we think we can know the thoughts of a devine mind??
Here's your answer. If God loved us then we would be the first to know the reason he permits bad things to happen. A loving father who has to take his child to the hospitle for a painful treatment will explain what is happening to him/her.
Now maybe we're like very small children to god. But in that case a loving parent would do all that he can to ensure the child that at least they are not alone, and that there is some reason for the pain, and try to comfert them.
So there's every reason to think that we espically would know the reason god permits suffering.

What we find however is that people who often undergo these kinds of pain feel the absence of god rather than his comfert. And many die very young having never believed.

So, after looking that all possible state of affairs in which god could allow suffering we can find that there is no state of affairs.

But then the pain and suffering we all feel is... pointless!
I don't have to tell you that stories from aids to tsunamies can be multiplied well beyond the breaking point of all our hearts.


I just can't really think of one good reason why god allows it.
Can you help give me some?

thank you.

So, what are you going to do about it ? Don't blame God for the current condition of the world. Until man gets his head on straight and returns to the loving - yes, the LOVING arms of God - these tragedies will continue. So I ask again, what are YOU going to do about it ?

To paraphrase the new testament: I set before you life and death - YOU choose. Why would anyone choose death ? People do this every day and it only spreads like a virus.

Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

[ilovemetal]

hey, i wrote an extravagant answer but i didn't like it. so i will say: read 'the problem of pain' by CS Lewis. it's a gooder.:D

kev

[Longsufferer]

Suffering is for purifying; it is the trial of our faith, which is far more precious than gold. But as the sufferings of Christ abounds in us, so our consolation also abounds by Christ. It is our test, to see if we will rely on God and His Word, or not. As Christ said, “My grace is sufficient for thee, for my strength is made perfect in weakness.” For this very reason did Paul say, When I am weak, then am I strong.
(I Peter.1:7)
(II Corinthians.1:5,6)
(II Corinthians.12:9,10)

[Elouise]

At this point in time I favour the Irenaean approach over the 'free will' argument.
If human beings were made perfect they would be as God rather than in Gods image; if we are imperfect then we contain the capacity to be improved. The sufferings of this life give us opportunities to learn and therefore grow.
Th argument further points out if we have no awareness of suffering how could we recognise good for we would lack a contrasting point.
John Hick further developed this idea in his 'soul making' arguments
A world without problems, difficulties, perils and hardships would be morally static. For moral and spiritual growth comes through response to challenges and in a paradise there would be no challenges
Pg 372 John Hicks Evil and the God of Love 1968

Hicks argument covers both 'natural evil' and the evil that comes form the heart of man that he inflicts upon others.

God can still exist even in apparent absence perhaps because when he seems so absent it is we who cannot hear and see him having become both deaf and blind in a spiritual sense for he is so close only when he does touch us can we be aware of his presence [sorry, I am still trying to formulate an argument to explain presence in absence and I have an awful lot more authors to read before I can define this as a construct]

Another question would be 'Does our perception and definition of suffering affect how we view God?' God is described as beyond human a definte 'other' to us and yet Moltmann argues in his book 'The crucified God' that this is an entity that knows what suffering is .

Certainly this is a question that has engaged philosophers and theologians for centuries and will continue to do so.

[Kahtar]

Lots of good answers here.
One thing to keep in mind is that we humans tend to view this life as our sum total, not realizing or remembering that there is life beyond this one.
These little children (and all who choose Christ) who are suffering here will not be when they are done here. And this life is a mere flicker in scope of eternity.
Sin, disease and evil exist in the world. The real question is what are you and I going to do about it? Sit and whine?
Before we can do anything for the world, we must fix the problem in our own life. And the only way that will happen is through Jesus Christ. Only He can change a heart.
But when He fills us with His love, THEN we can share that love with others, and should. And, sitting in a pew on Sunday mornings won't accomplish that, BTW. Getting out on the streets and making a difference in people's lives will. Bringing comfort to the hurting, helping the less fortunate, healing the sick, clothing the naked, etc. These things allow God's love to touch others through us.
The more people who experience God's love, the less evil there is in the world.

[mcgyver]

Good morning Bthings :)

You have asked the question that has plagued man for countless centuries, and the question that has so many nuances and facets, that it becomes impossible to address them all...."Why does God allow pain and suffering".

I'd like to give you a couple of things to think about, and perhaps a different perspective on this question.

Speaking in the broadest sense it all goes back to who God is and why we were created.

Mankind is unique in creation...we were created in the very image of God, to be in a perfect, loving relationship with God as children to their father. In the Garden of Eden we had this relationship. The bible records that when God had finished creating everything, He looked at it and said it was good.

There is a wonderful picture given of this relationship in the scripture: That God walked with Adam in the garden in the cool of the evening...in my mind's eye I picture Adam's "little" hand holding God's "big" hand as they walk and talk together in perfect peace and harmony...kind of like my two year old son when he puts his hand in mine when we walk to the park.

In order to have this relationship we were given reason, emotion, and a free will. God could have made us "robots", but what kind of relationship can you have with a robot? God desires the same thing of us that I desire of my children...that they come to me willingly, of their own will, that they love me even as I love them.

But then something terrible beyond words happened: Sin entered into the world, and just like a cancer, sin has affected every aspect of God's creation...this perfect relationship was broken, the earth was cursed, and disease and death became the norm.

The question arises: "Why didn't God just start over?" The answer is found in one word: "LOVE".

Let me illustrate. When my son was born I was 49 years old...when my wife after all these years became pregnant, we were told of all the defects that could happen with our son because we were an "older" couple...but we knew that we would love our child anyway. When my son was born (thankfully "perfect") and I heard his first cry...I broke down in tears and knew then that even if he had been born with a severe defect...There is no way I could even entertain the thought of "erasing him and starting over" and in this I caught a glimpse of God's love.

He couldn't simply "erase" Adam and Eve and start over...because He loved them.

Instead He put a plan into action to restore that lost relationship...Jesus Christ.

Perhaps He "allows" suffering; because to simply remove it all would be to:



Remove that self-same will He gave us.
Remove that very thing that causes so many people to embrace the cross...The one thing that He gave us to restore that lost relationship.

You see, God's loving hand is seen in all of this. The very fact that humanity continues is a testimony to Him.

Satan would like nothing better than to wipe mankind from the face of the earth...yet we continue on...and God's restraining power and His love for us is seen.

For every one person who is struck with Malaria (for example) there are untold thousands who are not. For every one person who dies of starvation there are untold thousands who do not. For every one person who develops cancer, there are untold thousands who do not.

These things (pain, suffering, sorrow) are the symptoms of the disease: Sin. Satan has lost...and one day (in God's own time) perfection will be restored. We have His promise on that!

God is still in the business of saving people...and perhaps this is why suffering continues: to bring us to Him!

As I mentioned earlier, the time will come when there is no more pain, no more death, no more sorrow...it is on the way...and God Himself will pull the curtain down on human history.

But until that time...He each and every day tries to reach us through Jesus Christ...He loves us still, and wants to be our Father...He wants us to come to Him as His children, and He Himself has made the way in the person and work of Jesus Christ!

So my question is: "What are you going to do with Jesus?" :)

[Gillian]

I've thought about this a lot, all i can think of is reasons against God, and none really for Him. So that's why I'm here, I'd like you guys to please help me with that.

I don't mean anything bad against Christian, although i know this might sound like, please don't take it that way. thanks.

Listen, Every single day an attack occurs on children that's ten times deadlier than the attack on the world trade center. (Today's 9/11 spooky.)
It comes from preventable disease like pneumonia, meziles, et cetra. Doctors know that melira is a leading cause taking the lives of 1,000,000 children each year; usually fatal in young people if not treated right away.
The child's final experience often include; fever, shivering, sever pain in the joings, head aches, coffing, vomiting, generalized convolutions, and comma.

Now, we would expect an all powerful, good god to prevent this suffering, unless he had some reason not to. Notice: not just any reason will do.

parents expericed children teens rebel at them often because of their own will, emotion strong feeling so nobody clearly are controlled by God. The root of true love is allow you learn in your own will. like kids became adults. that where true happiness, content is. a controlling or domiaming person that not allow kid to grown up at all in not peaceful or true love in truly wanting to please out of your own will. That what God need to see person out of her/his will wanting to please Him because he/she want to.

EX: It will do no good to claim "God doesn't care about the suffering of children"

His reason must such, that it morally justifies his not preventing of pain.

You might think there is some kind of greater good that comes if these 1000s of kids die every day, or some greater evil that might obtain if they were spaired.
Well, *Is* there? Consider all the kinds of goods and evils that we can think of....

Does humanity learn anything useful about milaria that could haven't been otherwise found? Aparently not, we already know how to prevent and treat it.
Does it inspire me and you to become better people? To strive to save the victims?
For the most part............
No. No it doesn't. But even if it did, why should they suffer so that we can be more viritous? This is not a morally justifying reason anyways.

Why should we think we can know the thoughts of a devine mind??
Here's your answer. If God loved us then we would be the first to know the reason he permits bad things to happen. A loving father who has to take his child to the hospitle for a painful treatment will explain what is happening to him/her.
possible it other way us who lack understanding? what already shown and said. doubts sometime do show itself up a weakness of faith, questioning God? same as questioning at times it need to understood the meaning `Have Faith!`


Now maybe we're like very small children to god. But in that case a loving parent would do all that he can to ensure the child that at least they are not alone, and that there is some reason for the pain, and try to comfert them.

we not alone. in many way methods God do try to reach out.
So there's every reason to think that we espically would know the reason god permits suffering.



What we find however is that people who often undergo these kinds of pain feel the absence of god rather than his comfert. And many die very young having never believed.

I dont know about you. I beleive all kids below reasonable understanding no matter where or how died and aumtomcially go to heaven. that something maybe in faith no matter how much it grive us for them . that sometime within time it is possible time heal somewhat ever it never be complety yet till one with them again.
Point is, by Bible words, babes go to kingdom of God ` Jesus words. better then not.

So, after looking that all possible state of affairs in which god could allow suffering we can find that there is no state of affairs.

But then the pain and suffering we all feel is... pointless!
I don't have to tell you that stories from aids to tsunamies can be multiplied well beyond the breaking point of all our hearts.


I just can't really think of one good reason why god allows it.
Can you help give me some?

thank you.

The way I see it suppose humans take it for granted and thankfully God is there at all, rather Devil in whole control. count your blessing because no doubt there alway someone else worse then you is what they said. Im saying there are many good and amazing stuff by large people are decent around the world then the bad. do press wrote them? nope. Thank God Im not living 100, 200 on and on years centuries ago etc. there alway bads with us as well genrally much better common good of people. why u may get upset, some people had their grief. but consider that maybe some are just not you. there be some who actually happy and time HAD healed for some. that people and their reaction, depend how they choose to deal with it, their strenght or lack of it cirsumtances etc

Gillian

[lithiumx22]

For every one person who is struck with Malaria (for example) there are untold thousands who are not. For every one person who dies of starvation there are untold thousands who do not. For every one person who develops cancer, there are untold thousands who do not.

These things (pain, suffering, sorrow) are the symptoms of the disease: Sin. Satan has lost...and one day (in God's own time) perfection will be restored. We have His promise on that!

God is still in the business of saving people...and perhaps this is why suffering continues: to bring us to Him!

As I mentioned earlier, the time will come when there is no more pain, no more death, no more sorrow...it is on the way...and God Himself will pull the curtain down on human history.




Couldn't have said it better myself!...God IS coming back and all these things will end!

Bthings, I have had these thoughts myself, but maybe this story will help like it has helped me!:

An Atheist College Professor during one of his sermons told his class that proof that God didn't exist relied simply in that, if God really existed, and was as loving as we claimed him to be, he wouldn't let any of his children suffer. Many of his students agreed with him, but one guy stood up and said: " If i turn off all the lights in the room and we are in complete darkness, does it mean that the light does not exist, of course not, therefore when we see evil and suffering in the world its not because there is no God but simply because we put ourselves in darkness."

:pray:I pray Lord that your second coming is soon so that there is no more suffering, and no more tears, so we can rejoice in you for all eternity AMEN

[DigReal]

Bthings, I'm still relatively new to the Bible, so I don't know if my perspective on your concerns are biblical or not. But I do believe that looking at things a little differently than you're used to will help.

But first, go back to mcgyver's post. Then read my following piece on humanity. Then go back and read again the other posts in this thread for greater perspectives and details. I think you only need to change your perspective on the "big picture", and open your mind, of course. It'll take time... days, weeks, maybe even months. And pray for answers! And keep in mind that you need to take this in the context of God's plan... read the Bible, maybe start with biblical prophecy (as I did). I've found that prophecy not only proves God's Word and Love, but that the unfulfilled prophecy helps explain His plan and wrap it up. (The unfulfilled portion gives the completeness of the plan that I feel is missing for many of today's Christians and non-Christians alike. It addresses the end times which I believe are growing very near.) :hmm:

I believe that God has given mankind the ability to lessen the afflictions of mankind (not just children with disease, but also adults. And the starving. And the oppressed. And the abused, etc, etc). And mankind has addressed these afflictions (proving we can do it... even those who don't believe in God can see that), but to such a small extent! He gave us minds to think, hearts to care, hands to build what our minds think up, and feet to take us to the problems that need our attention. But we don't do what we're capable of!!! Think about this:

Imagine how much money, time, thought have been expended on war and destruction and hate over just the past century. Huge amount, isn't it? Imagine if all those resources had instead been devoted to the afflictions that concern you so much. Just the brain power alone could have found cures or treatments for many more diseases. Then there's greed... if we fought that one there might not be poverty and famine. And so on.

Yes, I'm placing the blame right on us. Mankind. This isn't to say that God couldn't prevent such things, only that He wanted us to take care of the earth, each other, and all things. That's what the Bible teaches us, yet far too many of us don't listen. If mankind hadn't turned away from the teachings of God (OT) and Jesus (NT), the world would be a far different place. If we listened to the rule against fortification, there'd be no STD's and far fewer unwanted children. If we listened to Jesus tell us to love our neighbors (and enemies), there'd be no killing. And there are so many more teachings. Read those teachings, Bthings. When you do, you'll see that it's our own sinful nature that gets in the way... and that God knew this all along, and made plans to save us from ourselves.

Let us know if this helps or not. As mentioned, I'm not very knowledgeable, but there are many here who are.

Steve

[Oregongrown]

I've thought about this a lot, all i can think of is reasons against God, and none really for Him. So that's why I'm here, I'd like you guys to please help me with that.

I don't mean anything bad against Christian, although i know this might sound like, please don't take it that way. thanks.

Listen, Every single day an attack occurs on children that's ten times deadlier than the attack on the world trade center. (Today's 9/11 spooky.)
It comes from preventable disease like pneumonia, meziles, et cetra. Doctors know that melira is a leading cause taking the lives of 1,000,000 children each year; usually fatal in young people if not treated right away.
The child's final experience often include; fever, shivering, sever pain in the joings, head aches, coffing, vomiting, generalized convolutions, and comma.

Now, we would expect an all powerful, good god to prevent this suffering, unless he had some reason not to. Notice: not just any reason will do.

EX: It will do no good to claim "God doesn't care about the suffering of children"

His reason must such, that it morally justifies his not preventing of pain.

You might think there is some kind of greater good that comes if these 1000s of kids die every day, or some greater evil that might obtain if they were spaired.
Well, *Is* there? Consider all the kinds of goods and evils that we can think of....

Does humanity learn anything useful about milaria that could haven't been otherwise found? Aparently not, we already know how to prevent and treat it.
Does it inspire me and you to become better people? To strive to save the victims?
For the most part............
No. No it doesn't. But even if it did, why should they suffer so that we can be more viritous? This is not a morally justifying reason anyways.

Why should we think we can know the thoughts of a devine mind??
Here's your answer. If God loved us then we would be the first to know the reason he permits bad things to happen. A loving father who has to take his child to the hospitle for a painful treatment will explain what is happening to him/her.
Now maybe we're like very small children to god. But in that case a loving parent would do all that he can to ensure the child that at least they are not alone, and that there is some reason for the pain, and try to comfert them.
So there's every reason to think that we espically would know the reason god permits suffering.

What we find however is that people who often undergo these kinds of pain feel the absence of god rather than his comfert. And many die very young having never believed.

So, after looking that all possible state of affairs in which god could allow suffering we can find that there is no state of affairs.

But then the pain and suffering we all feel is... pointless!
I don't have to tell you that stories from aids to tsunamies can be multiplied well beyond the breaking point of all our hearts.


I just can't really think of one good reason why god allows it.
Can you help give me some?

thank you.

but I so hear your heart and pain for the suffering, abused, tortured, murdered and every other atrocity. I still think of them even though, God is my Everything now. To tell you how I have come to believe, and not to say I am right Ok? It is my belief, and it has brought me peace where there was none, hope where there was none, understanding where there was none, joy where there was none, and the list goes on. I was lost, confused, bitter, angry, and generally full of hate for this world and any "God" that would let such things happen.

I was at my wits end(you can read my testimony and it is "in part" only. Maybe one day I need to fill in the blank parts. I no longer blame God because I no longer believe He is at fault. Again, I believe in the bible, grom Genesis to Revelation. So that is where I am coming from. You are free to take it or leave it. But because it may help, I want to share it. From the beginning God made a perfect Garden for us to live in, all we had to do was obey. And His rules were neither cruel nor harsh. But they were rules. My nature is not to follow rules and I would have disobeyed just as Adam and Eve did. So I no longer blame them either. But in disobeying God, we opened the "door" ourselves, to sin. Sin is why these abominations occur. It is man's rebellion from God that cause all sinful acts. God is not a God that is anything but love, and in that love, He will not force anyone to come to Him. He wants folks to have a choice. Freedom, even if it means letting them destroy themselves. If He was not that way, He would have made robots or puppets. In my opinion, there is no one to blame for our circumstances(living in a "fallen" world)except ourselves.

I don't know, after typing this, if it will help or not. But focusing on a "better way" has helped me to not ignore the atrocities/sin in this world, but it has taught me to do something about it, even if only to pray, which is probably the most powerful weapon against sin there is.

Keep asking, keep seeking, keep searching. Try Jesus, give Him a chance. a sister in Christ, denise

PS Love starts with us, if we learn about true Love, which I believe is the God of the bible, we can spread it and help the lost and suffering instead of just being sick about it like I was, sick and feeling very helpless. I no longer feel helpless:)nor am I :)

[Paladin54]

How can we experience God's love if we do not suffer? How can we show God's love to others if they do not suffer. We live in a sinful world. Until God decides, in His own perfect timie, to send his Son back and reclaim His people we will continue to live in that sinful world. But within that sinful world we can shine as a light reflecting God's love to others.

God allows suffering so that his good and perfect plan can be fulfilled.

Isaiah 55:

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.

9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

[paidforinfull]

We live in a fallen world. Originally God made it perfect, but man (and woman) fell into sin. In the New Testament Satan offered the world to Jesus, if only Jesus would serve him. Could Satan have done it if he had no right to do so? No - of course not. Satan is, unfortunately, the prince of this world - a right he gained when Adam and Eve sinned.
We live in a fallen world - the result of sin. Unfortunately it is so often the innocent that suffer - the animals and the little children.

Satan influences and uses some people to torture, maim, kill and destroy God's creation. Does God care? Of course He does. His own Son, Jesus, was sacrificed so that those who choose to can be redeemed from sin.

Until Jesus returns, we will be living in this fallen world. Come quickly, Lord Jesus!

[tango]

We live in a fallen world, and the suffering around us is a consequence of human sin.

It's easy to look at some of the heart-wrenching suffering experienced by people around the world and cry out, wondering how a loving God can possibly allow such things to happen. But God gave us a free will, and one of the consequences of a free will is that some will take advantage of others.

To use a simplistic example, if I use my free will to hit you then you will experience a degree of suffering. To take away that suffering would require taking away my free will to disobey God.

As soon as we go down the road of taking away free will, where does it stop? If God were to step in and take away all the starvation in Africa, all the beatings of political prisoners, all the torture of dissidents by oppressive regimes, would we be satisfied, or would we look at the next level of suffering and wonder how it could be allowed to exist? Before long we'd be wondering how a loving God could allow someone's vacation to be ruined by heavy rain.

[seekhisface]

I've thought about this a lot, all i can think of is reasons against God, and none really for Him. So that's why I'm here, I'd like you guys to please help me with that.

I don't mean anything bad against Christian, although i know this might sound like, please don't take it that way. thanks.

Listen, Every single day an attack occurs on children that's ten times deadlier than the attack on the world trade center. (Today's 9/11 spooky.)
It comes from preventable disease like pneumonia, meziles, et cetra. Doctors know that melira is a leading cause taking the lives of 1,000,000 children each year; usually fatal in young people if not treated right away.
The child's final experience often include; fever, shivering, sever pain in the joings, head aches, coffing, vomiting, generalized convolutions, and comma.

Now, we would expect an all powerful, good god to prevent this suffering, unless he had some reason not to. Notice: not just any reason will do.

EX: It will do no good to claim "God doesn't care about the suffering of children"

His reason must such, that it morally justifies his not preventing of pain.

You might think there is some kind of greater good that comes if these 1000s of kids die every day, or some greater evil that might obtain if they were spaired.
Well, *Is* there? Consider all the kinds of goods and evils that we can think of....

Does humanity learn anything useful about milaria that could haven't been otherwise found? Aparently not, we already know how to prevent and treat it.
Does it inspire me and you to become better people? To strive to save the victims?
For the most part............
No. No it doesn't. But even if it did, why should they suffer so that we can be more viritous? This is not a morally justifying reason anyways.

Why should we think we can know the thoughts of a devine mind??
Here's your answer. If God loved us then we would be the first to know the reason he permits bad things to happen. A loving father who has to take his child to the hospitle for a painful treatment will explain what is happening to him/her.
Now maybe we're like very small children to god. But in that case a loving parent would do all that he can to ensure the child that at least they are not alone, and that there is some reason for the pain, and try to comfert them.
So there's every reason to think that we espically would know the reason god permits suffering.

What we find however is that people who often undergo these kinds of pain feel the absence of god rather than his comfert. And many die very young having never believed.

So, after looking that all possible state of affairs in which god could allow suffering we can find that there is no state of affairs.

But then the pain and suffering we all feel is... pointless!
I don't have to tell you that stories from aids to tsunamies can be multiplied well beyond the breaking point of all our hearts.


I just can't really think of one good reason why god allows it.
Can you help give me some?

thank you.


To understand the truth, you have to start from the beginning, and i mean that literally, you start from where it reads, "in the beginning". You'll then learn that Adam had it made. He didn't work or have to cook or anything that would be a task, was not known. He named all the fruits and all the animals.

It all started thousands of years ago in the Garden of Eden when Satan got Eve alone in the midst of the garden and tempted her to disobey God, by saying to her that she would become like God. Which of course is a lie.

There is no room for disobedience in God's kingdom, perhaps it's similar to a cancer and it had to be removed, so God ejected man and Satan into the earth. Now on earth, Adam had to work hard for everything.

fast forward-

God chose from Abram's seed, to establish a holy people to be his. He said to them, "you will be my people, and i will be your God". Then later through Moses he gave them the conditions for being his people and warned them that as long as they obeyed the Torah, that they would not be subjected to the curses found in the Torah.

fast forward-

Israel was commanded by God to terminate all life from the land that he gave them as a covenant he made with Abraham. Like a cancer, they had to be killed. Why? Some were Giants, born of Nephillim. All were pagan and worshipped idols as if they were Gods. Israel later fell into that sin. They did, becuase they didn't do what God told them to do. They wanted to keep the pagans alive for slaves. They thinking they know better than god, like so many today.

It boils down to this, God gave men a chance and when he was with them Israel was the largest most powerful nation on the planet, but when they began to go into those high places, like so many pagans, and broke his heart, time after time after time, then this is when he said through the ancient prophets that he is going to hide his face from them and his arm will be stretched out in anger. Now, over the last 2000 years do you think that maybe the jews have had some bad luck?

You answer is this, God gave man their chance and we turned our back on him.

The " Good news " is summed up in one word, " Jesus ".

[TruthFaith]

to suffer is to get stronger

[DaniHansen]

It's not the suffering we see, but what we would do about it, that is the question ...

[ƒσяєяυииєя]

Hello Bthings,

Good question you know?
And actually there`s a video, or rather a few videos with the Christian answer click here, (http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=ho5pmVJM1SY)

Go well



______________________
Peace and so forth

-"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation..."[Salvation from what?.]
-Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominio and power, both now and ever. Amen. (Romans 1:16; John 8:34; Jude 1:24-25.)

[HisServant]

For the most part I would answer "all of the above" to the question presented in this thread.

"And the king commanded, and they brought those men which had accused Daniel, and they cast them into the den of lions, them, their children, and their wives; and the lions had the mastery of them, and brake all their bones in pieces or ever they came at the bottom of the den." Dan 6:24

Notice the wives and children of Daniel's accuser were also punished. One might say that this was simply the edict of a pagan ruler who typically punished entire families for the error of the head of the household. I would say however, that we are responsible for our young offspring who are unable to properly decide for themselves.

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Prov 22:6

But... if we do not train them up in the way he should go?

Who can determine how innocent a child is who has been brought up by a parent or parents living in sin? Only God. And God has done so...

"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." I Sam 15:3

Could I as a soldier in King Saul's army have killed a 2 month old child of the Amekelites? With my present cultural and religious background, probably not, but none of those soldiers had such a background.

What would I do if I knew it was God's will for me to kill such a child? I hope that if I knew it was God telling me that I would obey Him. He will provide all that is needed in every situation. Did Abraham hesitate?

"And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of." Gen 22:2

"And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." I Sam 15:22

Is not this God who commanded Saul to slay "...infant and suckling..." the same God that we now serve? Was He not then as He is now?

Did He not say?

"For I am the LORD, I change not..." Mal 3:6

In the OT types and shadows were shown of the NT. In the OT enemies were to be completely destroyed. In the NT and now, the primary enemy is recognized as being inside of us and we are still to 'take no prisoners'. The evil within us must be destroyed completely, even if we do not recognize it as being evil. God's Spirit does recognize the evil at all times and He has the power to destroy it when we do not. All we have to do is surrender completely to God continuously and He will destroy all of the evil in us.

We are still required to obey Him even if we cannot understand why He asks us to do some of things which He asks us to do.