Post-trib 'rapture'

[redskittle]

Referring to Matthew 24:29

Has anyone noticed that the bible says "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days", not 'before':

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

I'm sure someone has noticed it. I've heard a lot of people say, like in the Left Behind series, that the people will be 'raptured' up, THEN the tribulation days come. I personally believe, because of this verse in the bible, that we all will suffer tribulation before there is any rapture, if there even will be a rapture.

So what do you guys think? Share some verses with me about this. I'd like to learn as much as I can.

Thank you.

[ServantoftheKing]

Cross reference the verse with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. In that passage you see the elect (both the dead in Christ and those who are still alive) being gathered to meet the Lord in the clouds at the sounding of a trumpet.

Matthew 24:29-31 talks about the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power and great glory, and the elect being gathered at the sounding of a trumpet.

I believe it's the same event being described, and as you mentioned already, Matthew 24:29 says this happens after the tribulation.

ServantoftheKing

[IPet2_9]

Has anyone noticed that the bible says "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days", not 'before':

Yup. :saint:

Those people who are pre-trib and have their own understanding of this verse, I can respect that. But like you said, I wonder how many "mainstream" pre-tribs have really dug into the Bible like that; or if they just go along with their church on this.

[carboy]

Yes, many have noticed. I like the absence of trumpet and bowl judgements in Matt. 24. Gods protection over the saints during this, like His protection of the Jews in Egypt, or the taking out of the saints before certain events, a "sometime during" approach to the rapture. "After the tribulation of THOSE days" with more days to follow. Anyway the more I read the less I sit with a pre-trib mind.

[vinsight4u8]

Let the sun darkened part of Matthew that comes after the tribulation be the time of the sun becomes black in the 6th seal.

4th seal - man of sin
5th seal - great tribulation
all rest till all come in killed that are to be slain as martyrs
6th seal - end of tribulation sign
sun black

heaven departs
- see Job 14:12,14

wicked men hide in the rocks
-see Isaiah 2:10-21
the day of the LORD starts

The church will be raptured in the 6th seal.

Then look at the 7th seal time of silence.
-see Isaiah 18:3-5
- Isaiah 62:1-4
-Isaiah 65:6
-Psalm 50

Jerusalem must be freed and can never be made desolate again once God keeps silence, takes His rest.

Let Rev. 7 be a give more info to us chapter.
a chapter - to go into greater depth as to the most important section of the seals
seals 4-6

Just before the 4th seal rider begins his ride - the 144,000 of Israel will be sealed for protection - protected to survive the trib time and clear past Armageddon to restart Israel back in her land.

The trumpets do not sound in Rev. 8 - for there is only the trumpet story.
The angels that were once seen with trumpets.

[IPet2_9]

Jerusalem must be freed and can never be made desolate again once God keeps silence, takes His rest.My belief is that Jerusalem gets freed by a 10-megaton nuclear missile. Not until New Jerusalem comes is it never made desolate again.

[MyGod]

Referring to Matthew 24:29

Has anyone noticed that the bible says "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days", not 'before':

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

I'm sure someone has noticed it. I've heard a lot of people say, like in the Left Behind series, that the people will be 'raptured' up, THEN the tribulation days come. I personally believe, because of this verse in the bible, that we all will suffer tribulation before there is any rapture, if there even will be a rapture.

So what do you guys think? Share some verses with me about this. I'd like to learn as much as I can.

Thank you.

The way I understand scripture, the tribulation starts immediately after we are caught up. No one knows how long the tribulation will last. The great tribulation lasts 7 years. When the scripture talks about "immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give light. . . " this happens after the 6th seal is opened in Rev 6:12. The elect mentioned in Matt 24:29 is Israel, not members of the Body of Christ. The scripture matt 24:13 talking about "he that endure to the end the same shall be saved," is talking about Israel, not members of the Body of Christ. Our salvation solely rests on the Lord Jesus' Christ death, burial, and resurrection and our belief in that. We don't have to endure to the end. I Thess 5:9 says that God has not appointed us to wrath. So, I know I will not be here thru the tribulation period or the great tribulation.

[BroRog]

Since the Tribulation is over, I'd say the rapture is definitely post trib.

[Richard H]

Since the Tribulation is over, I'd say the rapture is definitely post trib.

When was that?

Have I gotten left behind again? :o


Actually - not to this point - but to pre-tribbers:
Those who are alive and remain will NOT preceed the dead in Christ. (1 Thes 4:13-18)
Don't expect to be raptured before the resurrection.

[Khoolaid]

Referring to Matthew 24:29

Has anyone noticed that the bible says "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days", not 'before':

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

I'm sure someone has noticed it. I've heard a lot of people say, like in the Left Behind series, that the people will be 'raptured' up, THEN the tribulation days come. I personally believe, because of this verse in the bible, that we all will suffer tribulation before there is any rapture, if there even will be a rapture.

So what do you guys think? Share some verses with me about this. I'd like to learn as much as I can.

Thank you.
I think I'd be safe to say that the pre-trib view is that the rapture and the second coming are 2 different events. We believe that Matthew refers to the second coming, not the rapture.

[Richard H]

Don't expect to be raptured before the resurrection.

The FIRST resurrection - that is. :blush:

[BroRog]

I think I'd be safe to say that the pre-trib view is that the rapture and the second coming are 2 different events. We believe that Matthew refers to the second coming, not the rapture.

I understand your position. It's hard to get past the fact, though, that Jesus' description of his second coming sounds a lot like Paul's description of the rapture. I mean it appears to use the same imagery.

Have you given this much thought? What do you think about it?

[BroRog]

When was that?

Have I gotten left behind again? :o


Actually - not to this point - but to pre-tribbers:
Those who are alive and remain will NOT preceed the dead in Christ. (1 Thes 4:13-18)
Don't expect to be raptured before the resurrection.

Many Christians have been taught to associate the term "Great Tribulation" with the Trumpet and Vial judgments listed in the Book of Revelation. In my view, the GT is a different thing altogether. When I say the GT is over, I'm not also saying, at the same time, that the Vial judgments are over or that the rapture is about to take place.

Here is how I picture it. The GT is just another way to describe the exile of the Jews from Palestine. The term "great" differentiates this exile from the previous exile in Babylon. Now that the Jews are back in Palestine, living together as a nation again, the exile period is over.

[Literalist-Luke]

Referring to Matthew 24:29

Has anyone noticed that the bible says "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days", not 'before':

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

I'm sure someone has noticed it. I've heard a lot of people say, like in the Left Behind series, that the people will be 'raptured' up, THEN the tribulation days come. I personally believe, because of this verse in the bible, that we all will suffer tribulation before there is any rapture, if there even will be a rapture.I'm with ya all the way. :thumbsup:

[Just a Door Keeper]

Notice in 2 Thess. 2:1-3 we are told that the gathering and the day of Christ, ie, His coming will not take place until there is a falling away, an apostacy, and the man of sin is revealed. The gathering can't take place first, it is after the antichrist is revealed. Continue reading in the chapter and you will read of the revealing of the antichrist.
Mat.24 and 1 Thess. 4 both tell of - The Lord Jesus coming in the clouds
- angels
- the sound of a trumpet
- the gathering of believers
It's the same event!

So how many times do you think the Lord Jesus will come in the clouds with a trumpet etc and gather believers?
When the Lord was asked when He would come back He gave a detailed answer which is in Mat. 24.
Also notice that Mat.24:31 (which is the same event as 1 Thess.) occurs after the abomination of desolatiion and the great tribulation, both which begin in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel. There is no pre trib rapture, the rapture is after the antichrist is revealed, after the tribulation of those days.
Marvin Rosenthal wrote a good book on these things, it is worthwhile reading it. (comparing all with your Bible of course.) The book is called The Pre-Wrath Rapture.

Study the Day of the LORD, the Day of Christ, The Day of God and you will see that it begins with stars falling, sun turned to darkness etc. That happens AFTER the great trib, at least that's what the Lord Jesus says in Mat. 24.
The Day of the Lord is not the whole 7 years but only a small portion somewhere in the second half of the 7 years.
Read 2 Thess. 2:1-3 very carefully, note that we are warned, "let no man deceive you by any means for (that day shall not come) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

But whatever your take on it let's be sure not to let the old nature get us biting and devouring, but rather let grace rule.

[ross3421]

Referring to Matthew 24:29

Has anyone noticed that the bible says "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days", not 'before':

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

I'm sure someone has noticed it. I've heard a lot of people say, like in the Left Behind series, that the people will be 'raptured' up, THEN the tribulation days come. I personally believe, because of this verse in the bible, that we all will suffer tribulation before there is any rapture, if there even will be a rapture.

So what do you guys think? Share some verses with me about this. I'd like to learn as much as I can.

Thank you.


The dead in Christ rise first.........happens AFTER the tribulation of those days wherein the sun is darkened. How can there be those alive being raptured before a great tribulation?

[ross3421]

Since the Tribulation is over, I'd say the rapture is definitely post trib.

Well we have a problem here as well........

1. We all must physically die due to a sin nature.
2. Those without the mark of the beast are killed off prior.

There are no born again survivors remaining after the tribulation.

[ross3421]

[QUOTE=MyGod;1786794]The way I understand scripture, the tribulation starts immediately after we are caught up.

Scripture does not state this. Though you seem to understand there will be no Christians on earth for the great tribulation is correct. How will they be removed? raptured living or by death? Death at the hands of the beast.

[IPet2_9]

Scripture does not state this. Though you seem to understand there will be no Christians on earth for the great tribulation is correct. How will they be removed? raptured living or by death? Death at the hands of the beast.

Scripture says some Christians make it to the end.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

[Gods Child]

The elect mentioned in Matt 24:29 is Israel, not members of the Body of Christ. The scripture matt 24:13 talking about "he that endure to the end the same shall be saved," is talking about Israel, not members of the Body of Christ.

The word elect in Matthew 24 is the Greek word eklektos (Strong’s Concordance #1588) which means;
1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

This same Greek word Eklektos is used in the following quoted scriptures.
Which shows that the elect in Matthew 24 is the Body of Christ (Church/Christians).

Lk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

1 Thess 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

2 Tim 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

2 Pet 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Also to say that Matthew 24 is written to Israel, it must be noted that Jesus was talking to his disciples. Who were the disciples? They were the 1st Church…1st Saved…1st Christians. Jesus was talking to the Church/Christians/Body of Christ.
Jew’s (Israel) do not even read the New Testament. So it is quite clear that Jesus was talking about the Body of Christ here in Matthew 24 when he said Elect.
Our salvation solely rests on the Lord Jesus' Christ death, burial, and resurrection and our belief in that. We don't have to endure to the end. I Thess 5:9 says that God has not appointed us to wrath. So, I know I will not be here thru the tribulation period or the great tribulation.

Yes, God has not appointed us to wrath, but the Great tribulation is NOT Gods wrath.
The Great Tribulation is Satan’s wrath against God’s people.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

We are never appointed to God’s wrath. God’s wrath is for the ungodly.

We are not told we would escape persecution.
Jn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

The servant is NOT greater than his Lord.

[ross3421]

Scripture says some Christians make it to the end.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Are the "elect" Christians or the tribes of Israel?

Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Note "tribe" is specific to Israel in the NT. "All" meaning all 12.


Mark

[ross3421]

The elect mentioned in Matt 24:29 is Israel, not members of the Body of Christ. The scripture matt 24:13 talking about "he that endure to the end the same shall be saved," is talking about Israel, not members of the Body of Christ. Our salvation solely rests on the Lord Jesus' Christ death, burial, and resurrection and our belief in that. We don't have to endure to the end. I Thess 5:9 says that God has not appointed us to wrath. So, I know I will not be here thru the tribulation period or the great tribulation.

Right on...... Now the "very elect" may perhaps be speaking of the church.

Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Not possible due to the holy spirit. They can not be decieved and are delivered up to death.

Mark

[IPet2_9]

Are the "elect" Christians or the tribes of Israel?The elect are those predestined for salvation.

I Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

Note the defining characteristics of the elect: a) predestined, b) chosen for obedience to JESUS CHRIST, c) scattered all over the Mediterranean region.


Note Romans 11:7:
7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,

The elect and Israel are clearly delineated as two separate groups--not the same.

[ross3421]

The elect and Israel are clearly delineated as two separate groups--not the same.

I agree. Both are elect and predestined. I am saying the church is VERY elect and Israel the elect in Matt 24. Israel specific to the 144,000.

Note there are a whole lot more scriptures which depict Israel as God's elect than the church.

[Richard H]

Don’t forget about the woman in the desert – the one clothed in the Sun with the Moon (Islam) under her feet.

God divorced the scattered tribes, “Israel” – the northern kingdom, but he did not divorce “Judah” (and Benjamin and ½ Levites) – the southern kingdom we now call “Jews”. (Jer 3)

I think Revelation 12 is the parenthetical story (not tale) of national Israel, Jews in the land of Israel.

The woman, Judah, was to give birth to the Christ – the Lion of the tribe of Judah.
Satan and 1/3 of the angels, the fallen angels, sought to destroy the child even from his birth. (Herod in Matthew 2)

The remnant of this Woman flees into the desert to be protected and provided for during 1260 days.
There are two instances of people fleeing Jerusalem during Daniel’s 70th week.

1. Referring to the “woman” -
Immediately after the Abomination. Messianic Jews would be aware of the warning to flee. (Matthew 24:15-25)
Some people think this is a place called Bozrah, “the sheep pen” an old city in Edom south-east of the Dead Sea. (Isaiah 34)
Not Bosera in southern Iraq.

2. Not referring to the “woman” -
The other instance is people fleeing the city when the Mount of Olives is split in two – even to Azel.(Zec 14:5)

To further identify the Woman, the child that she gave birth to will shepherd the nations with an iron staff – Messiah, Jesus.

The dragon could not do anything to the protected woman, so he made war with (persecuted) the rest of her seed – the grafted in.
Christ was born of the woman, Judah, and we are born of the Spirit, the Spirit of Christ. (Romans 8:9)

The “rest of her seed” is identified as those keeping the commandments of God and having the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[Richard H]

The elect are those predestined for salvation.

I Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

Note the defining characteristics of the elect: a) predestined, b) chosen for obedience to JESUS CHRIST, c) scattered all over the Mediterranean region.


Note Romans 11:7:
7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,

The elect and Israel are clearly delineated as two separate groups--not the same.

Although, I’ve been aware of this for many years, I never really grasped the significance until this last year.

When one refers to ‘Israel” or “the Jews”, we’re not always talking about the same people.
Forgive me for harping: [as I’ve mentioned this on other threads – and this one (my previous post)]

“Israel” before the division of the kingdoms after Solomon, was simply Israel – the 12 tribes. (1 Kings11:26-39)

Then there was “Israel”, the northern kingdom, which was later scattered into the “10” lost tribes. (2 Kings 17:40)
Their identity was lost, so you or I could be part of Israel but not know it.

I had a DNA test done which was supposed to tell me if that was a possibility. The results “ruled it out”.
[Note: I was very disappointed with the results of this test – which really didn’t tell me anything I didn’t already know about my immediate heritage. ‘Wasted money.]

However, the results DID include a geographic map of the genetic pathways. Even if I came from European stock, it still showed that Europeans had previously come right through the area we call Israel.

So it is indeed possible that I’m of the northern kingdom, Israel.
Am (was) I also gentile? Yes.
Am I a Messianic “Jew” (Judah)? No.

However, I am grafted into root of Jesse. (Rom 15:12)

And it shall be in that day, the Root of Jesse stands as a banner of peoples; nations shall seek to Him; and His resting place shall be glory.
And it shall be in that day, the Lord shall again set His hand, the second time, to recover the remnant of His people that remains, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Ethiopia, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the coasts of the sea.
And He shall lift up a banner for the nations, and shall gather the outcasts of Israel, and gather those dispersed from Judah, from the four wings of the earth.
And the envy of Ephraim shall turn off; and Judah's foes shall be cut off. Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not trouble Ephraim.
Isaiah 11:10-13

[Bethany67]

I had a DNA test done which was supposed to tell me if that was a possibility. The results “ruled it out”.
[Note: I was very disappointed with the results of this test – which really didn’t tell me anything I didn’t already know about my immediate heritage. ‘Wasted money.]

However, the results DID include a geographic map of the genetic pathways. Even if I came from European stock, it still showed that Europeans had previously come right through the area we call Israel.

Would you mind expanding on this? Which company did it? I'm considering getting my mitochondrial DNA tested (can't do the Y-chromosome as I have no male relatives, although the male side of my family includes India, Scandinavia, the Middle East, Russia, Ethiopia, Arabia going back so would probably be more interesting). What route did they decide the inhabitants of Europe took? Very interested in the migration of peoples throughout history. A purely 'English' friend had some family results done - the mitochondrial DNA showed the eastern edge of the Black Sea (Russia/Georgia), and the K2 haplotype (now renamed haplogroup T) in a paternal uncle showed a link to the Middle East (Egypt or Iran).

[Richard H]

Re: DNA

Sent private message so as not to be off topic.

[Gods Child]

Are the "elect" Christians or the tribes of Israel?

Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Note "tribe" is specific to Israel in the NT. "All" meaning all 12.

Yes, the tribes mourn, but that does not make them the elect that are written of within Matthew 24.
We can see this, because the same Greek word for elect is used in all instances within Matthew 24.

Note that God used the word tribes and the word Elect. To show the difference between the two.
If God meant that the elect in Mat 24:22 were the tribes, he would have used the Greek word for tribes and not the same Greek word of elect (same word of elect that is used in other scriptures that describe Christians).


The word elect in Matthew 24 is the Greek word eklektos (Strong’s Concordance #1588) which means;
1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

The same Greek word for Elect is used in all three scriptures within Matthew 24.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's (Greek word; 1588=eklektos) sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Greek word; 1588=eklektos)

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (Greek word; 1588=eklektos) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The elect are those predestined for salvation.

I Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

Note the defining characteristics of the elect: a) predestined, b) chosen for obedience to JESUS CHRIST, c) scattered all over the Mediterranean region.


Note Romans 11:7:
7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,

IPet2_9,

Yes, 1 Peter 1;1 & Romans 11:7: is the same Greek word Elect used in all of Matthew 24. Which shows us that the Elect of Matthew 24 are Christians.

[BroRog]

Are the "elect" Christians or the tribes of Israel?

Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Note "tribe" is specific to Israel in the NT. "All" meaning all 12.


Mark

The "elect" in this case refers to the sons of Jacob. It's a simple matter of logic. Jesus says that for the sake of the elect, the days would be shortened. There is no reason why the days need to be shortened for the sake of those destined for eternal life, since if they suffer death today, they will get their reward. Jesus is predicting that the GT will not last long enough in duration to wipe out the sons of Jacob. That's his point.

[Richard H]

The "elect" in this case refers to the sons of Jacob. It's a simple matter of logic. Jesus says that for the sake of the elect, the days would be shortened. There is no reason why the days need to be shortened for the sake of those destined for eternal life, since if they suffer death today, they will get their reward. Jesus is predicting that the GT will not last long enough in duration to wipe out the sons of Jacob. That's his point.

Thanks, BroRog. I never noticed that before.


Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

I agree. IMHO “Israel” here is all the the tribes – not just Judah – because it refers to Jacob.


Isa 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Of course, Jesus came out of Judah.

Scripture never ceases to amaze me.

Richard

[Gods Child]

The "elect" in this case refers to the sons of Jacob. It's a simple matter of logic. Jesus says that for the sake of the elect, the days would be shortened. There is no reason why the days need to be shortened for the sake of those destined for eternal life, since if they suffer death today, they will get their reward. Jesus is predicting that the GT will not last long enough in duration to wipe out the sons of Jacob. That's his point.

I would have to disagree. What has always been God's reason to keep Christians on the earth? It is to preach the Gospel.

What does Jesus say in Matthew 24....
Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Christians preach the gospel and they do so in the flesh. This is why Jesus said the days are shortened, because otherwise there would be no flesh saved...Elect (Christians).....
Flesh saved for what? ... To preach the gospel to the kingdom....Then shall the end come. That is the purpose of the Elect (Christians) in this chapter.
We don't have to leave it to "logic", because Jesus already told us.

[Khoolaid]

I understand your position. It's hard to get past the fact, though, that Jesus' description of his second coming sounds a lot like Paul's description of the rapture. I mean it appears to use the same imagery.

Have you given this much thought? What do you think about it?
I have looked at what you suggested and I still see two different events despite similarities. I think it is safe to say that no matter where you place the rapture (pre to post) that it is the translation of believers in a twinkling of an eye to glorified bodies. I see no translation in the second coming.

With the rapture you have the saints going to heaven, in the second coming they are coming from heaven to earth.

The pre-trib view also holds to the doctrine of imminency, which is the belief that the rapture can happen at any time with no event that must take place for it to happen. It seems the second coming is preciously timed and follows predicted signs.

Most also believe that the rapture occurs before the time of wrath while the second coming concludes the time of wrath.

[BroRog]

I have looked at what you suggested and I still see two different events despite similarities. I think it is safe to say that no matter where you place the rapture (pre to post) that it is the translation of believers in a twinkling of an eye to glorified bodies. I see no translation in the second coming.

With the rapture you have the saints going to heaven, in the second coming they are coming from heaven to earth.

The pre-trib view also holds to the doctrine of imminency, which is the belief that the rapture can happen at any time with no event that must take place for it to happen. It seems the second coming is preciously timed and follows predicted signs.

Most also believe that the rapture occurs before the time of wrath while the second coming concludes the time of wrath.

I totally understand. I really do. I was just wondering how you were putting things together. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me.

[Joe King]

No one can explain to me why we would be exempt from the tribulation when Jesus had to suffer. We will have our test and definitely tribulation. The rapture is wonderful and will happen but at best, during the middle of the tribulation. Who are the people that will be persecuted across the earth? It will be the Christians and Jews.

Pray for the strength, wisdom and protection to get through it!!!

[David Taylor]

Jesus said,
"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me." John 15:18

[DeafPosttrib]

khoolaid,

Many pretribs believe rapture is imminent without any signs, could come anytime quickly without any expect. They use Matt. 24:42,44; and Mark 13:32 that, these verses telling us, no one and angels know what day and hour when Christ comes, only God the Father knows.

Postribs do agree with Matt. 24:42,44, & Mark 13:32 that we do not know the specific date of His coming would be. What we can od is, always watch and ready all the times.

In common sense, Matt. 24:42,44; Mark 13:32 always focus on Second Advent, no question.

Pretribs claim that, the Early Church believed His coming is imminent. True. But, it doesn't mean that they all were pretribs. Because, the two split comings were unheard doctrine to them, and this doctrine was not yet exist till middle 19th Century. Early Christians believed there is the only one future coming of Christ. And of course, all Early Christians believed Second Advent is imminent. So far I am aware that there is no record in Early Fathers' books or commentary, did set the date of Second Advent. Neither, they claim that they do know when Christ shall come. They all were did watch and ready in their lifetime, they had no idea when Christ comes, they just get busy served the Lord in their life, they were always ready. These do not mean that it prove of pretrib rapture. The fact was, they believed one future coming, they were always be ready all the times, although all of them died in their faith. Still their faith were counted and got blessed.


I only know three major signs would be happening prior imminent coming of Christ: 1. Falling away 2. revealed of Satan 3. Cosmic disturbance according as what in 2 Thess. 2:1-3 and Matt. 24:29 saying.

Also, there is no promise from God that we shall escape from tribulation. In John 16:33, Christ told disciples, that they should have tribulations, but be cheer up, because He already victory over tribulations.

Many pretribs are aware that many Christians already suffered tribulations throughout history in the past.

Yet, pretribs saying "wrath of God" equals with "tribulation period". They use 1 Thess. 1:10 & 5:9 to prove us that we shall flee from the wrath of God, that we will be rapture first before wrath of God begins. But, the problem is, nowhere in Bible saying 'wrath of God' is equal with seven year period. Use our commone sense, 'wrath' is for unsaved people, and unfaithful servants who abide in their sins, God would be wrath upon them. What wrath will be the consequence for them to face? Send them to everlasting fire, that is speak of hell, then later cast into lake of fire.

Same as what John 3:36 is talking about.

So, therefore, pretribulationism doctrine is only 170 years old doctrine.

Bible, what it actual saying than what men saying according to Colossians 2:8.

Bible teaching us very clear there will be one future coming on the last day of this age/world, one resurrection day, one judgment day. There is no reason why should I believe in two split comings, because, no where in Bible say there will be two future comings as split. That doctrine caused churches in divisions since mid of 19th Century to now.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

[Richard H]

<snip>

Yet, pretribs saying "wrath of God" equals with "tribulation period". They use 1 Thess. 1:10 & 5:9 to prove us that we shall flee from the wrath of God, that we will be rapture first before wrath of God begins. But, the problem is, nowhere in Bible saying 'wrath of God' is equal with seven year period. Use our commone sense, 'wrath' is for unsaved people, and unfaithful servants who abide in their sins, God would be wrath upon them. What wrath will be the consequence for them to face? Send them to everlasting fire, that is speak of hell, then later cast into lake of fire.

Same as what John 3:36 is talking about.

So, therefore, pretribulationism doctrine is only 170 years old doctrine.



Right.
The wrath to come refers to the seven bowls of wrath - toward the END of the tribulation. We are not destined to go through such.


As you say, the pre-trib idea started 170 yrs ago - with Darby.

[DeafPosttrib]

How long the seven bowls of Revelation chapter 16 last?

Look at Rev. 16:15 tells us, blessed that he watch shall not cah as thief. This is picture of rapture. Rapture shall come follow after 6th bowl occured, clearly, the saints are still there till 6th bowl, also, same as 6th trumpet blown of Rev. 11:15-18, tis passage is picture as gathering - rapture for the judgment day right after Euphrate River being dried up same with 6th trumpet and 6th bowl. Even, do not forget 6th seal too!! 6th seal tells the same thing of Matt. 24:29 on cosmic disturbance.

So, therefore, pretribulationialism doctrine is weak to me, because it is not clear.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

[vinsight4u8]

I believe the bowls last for the extra 45 days mentioned in Daniel 12.

resurrection of the just (including Daniel) =1290th day
rapture -
All of the saints go home to heaven and wait there till time for the 6th vial Armageddon battle.

[Richard H]

How long the seven bowls of Revelation chapter 16 last?

Look at Rev. 16:15 tells us, blessed that he watch shall not cah as thief. This is picture of rapture. Rapture shall come follow after 6th bowl occured, clearly, the saints are still there till 6th bowl, also, same as 6th trumpet blown of Rev. 11:15-18, tis passage is picture as gathering - rapture for the judgment day right after Euphrate River being dried up same with 6th trumpet and 6th bowl. Even, do not forget 6th seal too!! 6th seal tells the same thing of Matt. 24:29 on cosmic disturbance.

So, therefore, pretribulationialism doctrine is weak to me, because it is not clear.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

At the risk of violating the rules as pertains to date setting: I'd guestimate - some 15 or 16 days - not long. EOT :saint:

Not only is pre-trib weak. It seems that one must totally ignore what 2 Thessalonians 4 actually says. It is ironic that it seems to be one of the verses used to prove that there actually is a rapture - but the sequence is skimmed right past.

[Khoolaid]

Joe King said:
No one can explain to me why we would be exempt from the tribulation when Jesus had to suffer.I guess terminology here is important. If by tribulation you mean general suffering and persecution then you are correct in believing we won't be exempt from that.

Deafpost said:
I only know three major signs would be happening prior imminent coming of ChristWith all due respect imminence means that nothing has to happen before the event takes place. Once you place an event in front of something it is no longer imminent.

Deafpost said:
Yet, pretribs saying "wrath of God" equals with "tribulation period". They use 1 Thess. 1:10 & 5:9 to prove us that we shall flee from the wrath of God, that we will be rapture first before wrath of God begins. But, the problem is, nowhere in Bible saying 'wrath of God' is equal with seven year period.I'll agree with you that technically the tribulation period is not 7 years, but it has become an accepted term for Daniel's 70th week. Jesus calls the final 3 1/2 years "the great tribulation."

If the 1 Thess verses don't say we are exempt from a coming wrath, what do they say?

The pre trib belief is that Daniel's 70th week cannot start until the restrainer is removed. We believe that that restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the indwelt church. So Daniel's 70th week (7 years) cannot begin until the church is removed. Being gone before the Wrath of God happens is an additional point, but it is not the main point of why we believe the rapture happens.

Deafpost said:
So, therefore, pretribulationism doctrine is only 170 years old doctrine. And amil and postmil didn't gain wide spread acceptance until Augustine around 384 AD (guess since he lived from 354-430ad). No one will disagree that the pre trib doctrine was popularized when you suggest, but there is a healthy debate as to it's beginnings.

[Richard H]

Hearsay:
My brother (who is not hear right now) told me of an article he read -

Christians in China are wishing they had not been taught pre-trib, so they would have been better prepared for what is going on right now.

[crush]

I would have to disagree. What has always been God's reason to keep Christians on the earth? It is to preach the Gospel.

What does Jesus say in Matthew 24....
Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Christians preach the gospel and they do so in the flesh. This is why Jesus said the days are shortened, because otherwise there would be no flesh saved...Elect (Christians).....
Flesh saved for what? ... To preach the gospel to the kingdom....Then shall the end come. That is the purpose of the Elect (Christians) in this chapter.
We don't have to leave it to "logic", because Jesus already told us.

The GT has to last 1290 days otherwise Daniel's prophecy is in error [Dan 12:11] so the days being shortened can't mean that there will be 1200 days, or 1100 days, or 1000 days of GT, there has to be 1290.....
Rev 8:12 explains how the days can be "shortened" and the Daniel 1290 day prophecy can still apply...

Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

So you can see that the days are LITERALLY shortened. IOW If one of our 24 hour days was shortened by 1/3 it would become an 18 hour day....

I suppose you could say that this would have the same effect as having fewer days if the reason for the shortening were to save the elect from the Beast (he could accomplish less evil in a 18 hour day than he could in a 24 hour day). Possibly God shortens the days to save the earth and all flesh, man and animals, from the scorching heat plague [Rev 16:8]. So that the "elect" [meaning remnant Israel] will have a earth to rule over during the Millenium.

But God doesn't need to shorten the days to save the "flesh" of the saints that should be martyred during the GT LOL, these are the ones that die for their testimony [Rev 6:9].

[IPet2_9]

I guess terminology here is important. If by tribulation you mean general suffering and persecution then you are correct in believing we won't be exempt from that.

It's possible that that's exactly what the Tribulation is. That is what the Idealistic viewpoint of Revelation teaches. And some amill.

[vinsight4u8]

The rapture happens at the start of chapter 19 of Revelation. Jesus is to appear at the salvation time.

Hebrews 9:28
1 Thes. 5:9

What gets said at the start of ch 19?
salvation

then after the marriage - more than one army of those saints will come from heaven
-but
only one army will go to Armageddon
-for the other army already gained victory over the beast

[John146]

The word elect in Matthew 24 is the Greek word eklektos (Strong’s Concordance #1588) which means;
1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

This same Greek word Eklektos is used in the following quoted scriptures.
Which shows that the elect in Matthew 24 is the Body of Christ (Church/Christians).



Also to say that Matthew 24 is written to Israel, it must be noted that Jesus was talking to his disciples. Who were the disciples? They were the 1st Church…1st Saved…1st Christians. Jesus was talking to the Church/Christians/Body of Christ.
Jew’s (Israel) do not even read the New Testament. So it is quite clear that Jesus was talking about the Body of Christ here in Matthew 24 when he said Elect.


Yes, God has not appointed us to wrath, but the Great tribulation is NOT Gods wrath.
The Great Tribulation is Satan’s wrath against God’s people.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

We are never appointed to God’s wrath. God’s wrath is for the ungodly.

We are not told we would escape persecution.
Jn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

The servant is NOT greater than his Lord.Good post. I agree. The elect refers to the body of Christ which is all of God's people whether Jew or Gentile. The dead in Christ will be resurrected first and then those who alive and remain at the coming of the Lord will be gathered by the angels and caught up together with the dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air when He comes again. The parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew 13:24-30,36-43 and the parable of the fishing net from Matthew 13:47-50 both show that the resurrection of the dead and the gathering of all people for judgment occurs at the end of the age, which is when Christ returns. And He returns "after the tribulation of those days".

[Gods Child]

Good post. I agree. The elect refers to the body of Christ which is all of God's people whether Jew or Gentile. The dead in Christ will be resurrected first and then those who alive and remain at the coming of the Lord will be gathered by the angels and caught up together with the dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air when He comes again. The parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew 13:24-30,36-43 and the parable of the fishing net from Matthew 13:47-50 both show that the resurrection of the dead and the gathering of all people for judgment occurs at the end of the age, which is when Christ returns. And He returns "after the tribulation of those days".

Thank you John146

I was beginning to think that I was beating my drum alone. Although I will continue to beat on this drum until I die, or I'm gathered (at the end) which ever comes first, but it is a much sweeter music if there is more than just one drum.

[Gods Child]

The GT has to last 1290 days otherwise Daniel's prophecy is in error [Dan 12:11] so the days being shortened can't mean that there will be 1200 days, or 1100 days, or 1000 days of GT, there has to be 1290.....
Rev 8:12 explains how the days can be "shortened" and the Daniel 1290 day prophecy can still apply...

Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

So you can see that the days are LITERALLY shortened. IOW If one of our 24 hour days was shortened by 1/3 it would become an 18 hour day....

I suppose you could say that this would have the same effect as having fewer days if the reason for the shortening were to save the elect from the Beast (he could accomplish less evil in a 18 hour day than he could in a 24 hour day). Possibly God shortens the days to save the earth and all flesh, man and animals, from the scorching heat plague [Rev 16:8]. So that the "elect" [meaning remnant Israel] will have a earth to rule over during the Millenium.




The 1290 days equals 3 1/2 years plus 30 days. This is not the whole 70th week, which is 7 years....Shortened 3 1/2 years.
Yes, it will be shortened for the elect (Christians) sake to preserve the flesh to preach the gospel to all the kingdoms as Jesus said.
Why would God need to shorten the days to save the flesh for Israel sake?

But God doesn't need to shorten the days to save the "flesh" of the saints that should be martyred during the GT LOL, these are the ones that die for their testimony [Rev 6:9].
If they have the testimony of Jesus Christ....Then they are Christians and will be part of the promise of the rapture & marriage supper.
If they were not part of the rapture & marriage supper, then God lied to them when he said that ALL will be changed (raptured)

1 Cor :51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet (last trump)....READ Rev 14, for it is the ONLY time that we are shown when Jesus comes in the clouds to gather his own and it happens at the last trump...We ALL will be changed (raptured)..God will not lie to ONE of his children....Jesus will not leave ONE christian behind....Those that have his testimony in the tribulation will be included.

[Acerohombre]

"Tribulation"is used in the Bible, as I know of, in three separate terminologies.

1. Tribulation, as John says "brother in Tribulation".
2. Great Tribulation, as in "they that come out of Great Tribulation"
3. Great Tribulation, like no other, nor shall there ever be again.

Tribulation occurs around us all the time on a daily basis. Great Tribulation is and will also be times of great trouble, wars rumors of wars, Hitler.

But a time of Great Tribulation nor shall there ever be again clearly has not occurred. There has not been a time of Abomination that maketh Desolate. It is the time when the Antichrist will temp the whole world to worship him and it's not happened yet. At that time, there will be a harvest of the earth to collect those who have patience and will not worship, Rev. 14. See if that doesn't look like 1Thes, crying of the Archangel, Son of Man on the Clouds, etc.

True Christians will not have to endure the hour of temptation (Rev 3:10) that will come to all of the people who are alive and remain on the Earth at that greatest time of Tribulation.

[Literalist-Luke]

"Tribulation"is used in the Bible, as I know of, in three separate terminologies.

1. Tribulation, as John says "brother in Tribulation".
2. Great Tribulation, as in "they that come out of Great Tribulation"
3. Great Tribulation, like no other, nor shall there ever be again.

Tribulation occurs around us all the time on a daily basis. Great Tribulation is and will also be times of great trouble, wars rumors of wars, Hitler.

But a time of Great Tribulation nor shall there ever be again clearly has not occurred. There has not been a time of Abomination that maketh Desolate. It is the time when the Antichrist will temp the whole world to worship him and it's not happened yet. At that time, there will be a harvest of the earth to collect those who have patience and will not worship, Rev. 14. See if that doesn't look like 1Thes, crying of the Archangel, Son of Man on the Clouds, etc.I can go along with everything said so far. :yes:True Christians will not have to endure the hour of temptation (Rev 3:10) that will come to all of the people who are alive and remain on the Earth at that greatest time of Tribulation.You just keep telling yourself that. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/madyes.gif

[Joe King]

To me, since the LORD said that the days had to be cut short or else all flesh would perish, that means technically it is mid-tribulation period.

[IPet2_9]

To me, since the LORD said that the days had to be cut short or else all flesh would perish, that means technically it is mid-tribulation period.

For the same reason, I tend to believe the rapture is "mid-trib" AND that that constitutes the end. In effect, that's the same as post-trib with a non-seven-year period.

[redskittle]

I think I'd be safe to say that the pre-trib view is that the rapture and the second coming are 2 different events. We believe that Matthew refers to the second coming, not the rapture.

I'm not meaning to be rude or anything, this is not my intention, but does the word 'rapture' even appear in the bible? i'm curious ... because i personally haven't seen it.

by the way if someone has already answered this question please forgive me. this thread is now 4 pages long and i haven't had a chance to read everyone's response.

thanks.

[jeffweeder]

I'm not meaning to be rude or anything, this is not my intention, but does the word 'rapture' even appear in the bible? i'm curious ... because i personally haven't seen it.

Your not being rude....its a good qu.

No , it doesnt appear, but it refers to the time when the lord gathers us to himself.
The Lord must come again, and when he does he raises the dead first, and together with the living ..he recieves us to himself.
Jesus said he would raise us the last day.

How do we define the last day....when the ressurection happens?

JOB 14
"But man dies and lies prostrate.
Man expires, and where is he?

11 "As water evaporates from the sea,
And a river becomes parched and dried up,

12 So man lies down and does not rise.
Until the heavens are no longer,
He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.



.
35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah



10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


Well that defines why it is the last day, as the heavens are no more.
The tribulation happens under the old heavens, as the new heavens are reserved for righteousness only.

[Literalist-Luke]

To me, since the LORD said that the days had to be cut short or else all flesh would perish, that means technically it is mid-tribulation period.He cuts the days short at precisely 2,520 days. The Antichrist would have it go longer in his effort to obliterate the Jews, but Jesus cuts him short on Day # 2,520.

[Literalist-Luke]

I'm not meaning to be rude or anything, this is not my intention, but does the word 'rapture' even appear in the bible? i'm curious ... because i personally haven't seen it.The word "trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible either, so shall we reject the doctrine of the Trinity?

[IPet2_9]

The word "trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible either, so shall we reject the doctrine of the Trinity?

It does make it significantly harder to prove, though. It's the reason why we have pre-trib, post-trib, preterists, and it looks like soul sleep, too (looks like jeffweeder believes in soul sleep).

[David Taylor]

The word "trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible either, so shall we reject the doctrine of the Trinity?

The difference however, is the concept of what the word trinity represents, that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; is all clearly written throughout the scriptures in many places; without the need of the short-cut 'Trinity' term.

The concept of a Rapture being another coming of Jesus from Heaven to gather people to Heaven at a time different than the '2nd Coming' however, is not a concept that is clear written thoughout the scriptures in many places. It is a belief based on inference and interpretation being used to say some passages are 2nd Coming passages and some are 'rapture' passages; whereas the text itself never clearly tells us to make this type of inference or interpretation.

The Scriptures themselves only speak of one future singular coming of the Lord from Heaven. Never do they speak of plural future comings from Heaven, or do they differentiate between the first future coming and the next future coming after that.

So that is a large reason why 'Trinity' and 'Rapture' while neither word are used, are based on completely different rationals.

[Literalist-Luke]

The difference however, is the concept of what the word trinity represents, that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; is all clearly written throughout the scriptures in many places; without the need of the short-cut 'Trinity' term.

The concept of a Rapture being another coming of Jesus from Heaven to gather people to Heaven at a time different than the '2nd Coming' however, is not a concept that is clear written thoughout the scriptures in many places. It is a belief based on inference and interpretation being used to say some passages are 2nd Coming passages and some are 'rapture' passages; whereas the text itself never clearly tells us to make this type of inference or interpretation.

The Scriptures themselves only speak of one future singular coming of the Lord from Heaven. Never do they speak of plural future comings from Heaven, or do they differentiate between the first future coming and the next future coming after that.

So that is a large reason why 'Trinity' and 'Rapture' while neither word are used, are based on completely different rationals.Agreed completely. My point was simply that the word "Rapture" not appearing in the Bible is not a valid argument for accepting/rejecting it.

[David Taylor]

But a good reason for questioning why it is such an accepted doctrine.

Question 'Trinity' or 'Bible' as words not used in the scriptures, and you'll find many quick, very clear, and straightforward scriptural examples of why those words represent accepted doctrine.

Question 'Rapture' as a word not used in the scripture, and you'll get a good idea why there is so much disagreement, and one big reason why we have a specific ETC discussion subforum.

[Khoolaid]

I'm not meaning to be rude or anything, this is not my intention, but does the word 'rapture' even appear in the bible? i'm curious ... because i personally haven't seen it.

I take no offense as the question didn't seem to be delivered in a mean spirited way.

As stated above the word "rapture" is not in the English Bible. But the process of a rapture is. It comes from 1 Thes 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:" The words translated "caught up" are in the Greek "harpazo," another term you may hear for the idea of rapture. The word harpazo means “to seize upon with force” or “to snatch up.” In the Latin Vulgate the equivilant word to "caught up" and "harpazo" is "rapiemur", to take away by force. *In the Latin Vulgate, one of the oldest Bibles in existence, the appropriate tense of rapio appears in verse 17. (Raptus is the past participle of rapio, and our English words “rapt” and “rapture” stem from this past participle.)* [*...* this is a quote from Chuck Missler]

Rapture theology is a combination of 1 Thes 4:17 and 1 Cor 15:51-55. It is simply believed that the rapture is the transformation of our earthly bodies into heavenly bodies at the twinkling of an eye and meeting Jesus in the air. So what is usually discussed is not the process of the rapture, but the timing of it.

[BroRog]

To me, since the LORD said that the days had to be cut short or else all flesh would perish, that means technically it is mid-tribulation period.

I don't think this is right and here's why.

Jesus says that the days are cut short for the sake of the elect. The issue appears to center around the preservation of the elect. That is, if the duration of the tribulation were to go beyond a certain time 'T', say "T + 1" day, then all flesh would be destroyed. But in the best interests of the elect, the Tribulation will not last until time 'T', but it will end some time sooner than that, say "T - 1".

However, once we introduce the idea of the rapture, things get confusing. For if God plans to end the Tribulation at "T - 1" day for the best interests of the elect, then why a rapture? If God is planing on taking the elect off the earth, then it would be in their best interest if God took them off the earth, in which case the duration of the Tribulation is irrelevant since the elect are already in heaven awaiting the next age and fully protected.

In fact, why have a tribulation in the first place? Why not rapture us all right now and get it over with?

[Chondram]

Referring to Matthew 24:29

Has anyone noticed that the bible says "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days", not 'before':

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

I'm sure someone has noticed it. I've heard a lot of people say, like in the Left Behind series, that the people will be 'raptured' up, THEN the tribulation days come. I personally believe, because of this verse in the bible, that we all will suffer tribulation before there is any rapture, if there even will be a rapture.

So what do you guys think? Share some verses with me about this. I'd like to learn as much as I can.
Thank you.

In Revelation, after chapter 3-4, the church is not mentioned again, in Rev 6 --- is sounds as though "the restrainer" has been removed (Holy Spirit) and evil can flourish, and does. Which I hope, means; TRUE Chrisitans are removed (rapture).

I was raised a pre-triber, but after years of "seeking", I'm just not so sure. The (or I believe the Lord), has pressed me for a couple of years, to stockpile and prepare for some bad times. Maybe it's something personal he's telling me, or Christians aren't getting away so quickly.

I would wonder with all the judgements on America coming down, if we are not just in the "birth pangs", but a tad farther...and we may go farther before the Lord appears in the clouds...

Not so sure in Oklahoma:kiss::kiss:

PS, after reading the above response, I do know Christians will be taken BEFORE GOD'S WRATH. But satan's wrath..ummm, different story...still praying for the pre-trib rapture, but preparing for the worst!

[vinsight4u8]

In Revelation, after chapter 3-4, the church is not mentioned again, in Rev 6 --- is sounds as though "the restrainer" has been removed (Holy Spirit) and evil can flourish, and does. Which I hope, means; TRUE Chrisitans are removed (rapture).

I was raised a pre-triber, but after years of "seeking", I'm just not so sure. The (or I believe the Lord), has pressed me for a couple of years, to stockpile and prepare for some bad times. Maybe it's something personal he's telling me, or Christians aren't getting away so quickly.

I would wonder with all the judgements on America coming down, if we are not just in the "birth pangs", but a tad farther...and we may go farther before the Lord appears in the clouds...

Not so sure in Oklahoma:kiss::kiss:

I believe that we are in the time of sorrows. The time that was shown to Daniel at the start of chapter 10 that made him sad. He mourned for how long?
three full weeks

Daniel 9 - the angel comes to him and tells a message , but before he gives the message - he told Daniel to consider the vision.
What vision should be considered?
The three full weeks vision - as in 21 years of sorrow that was shown to Daniel in chapter 10 and we find the details of it - starting in Daniel 11:14. This is why I expect the Palestinians to fall before long.

As for the rapture of the chruch timing?
Have you considered Hebrews 9:28 and what is said at the start of Rev. 19?
as to Jesus will appear at the time of salvation

Then consider too - Rev. 12 and Rev. 7, as they show the time of great tribulation martyrdom happens first.

[vinsight4u8]

I don't see a mid-trib rapture (the days and nights get less hours in them in the 4th trumpet time) so time was shortened - but the amount of days must stay the same - leading us to only a 7th trumpet great earthquake hour resurrection of the just and rapture. The hour when the angel told John how the two slain witnesses will rise and the remnant give glory to the God of heaven.

As for when is the church last mentioned in Revelation?
The first few chapters have told her to endure to the end - keep His works. Chapter 4 has an ending that seems to be missed - as here is when Rev. 11:16 is also taking place.
the seated elders do not ever get their at the throne seats back

so -falling from their seats
can only happen at the 7th trumpet

Rev.4 is ending at the time of the 7th trumpet has started to sound.

[Literalist-Luke]

In Revelation, after chapter 3-4, the church is not mentioned again, in Rev 6 --- is sounds as though "the restrainer" has been removed (Holy Spirit) and evil can flourish, and does. Which I hope, means; TRUE Chrisitans are removed (rapture).The part about the Church not being mentioned after Revelation 3 is only an argument from silence and is inconclusive. Note that there are numerous mentions of the "saints".I was raised a pre-triber, but after years of "seeking", I'm just not so sure.Re-examining your beliefs is always a wise thing to do.The (or I believe the Lord), has pressed me for a couple of years, to stockpile and prepare for some bad times. Maybe it's something personal he's telling me, or Christians aren't getting away so quickly.Another very wise thing to do.I would wonder with all the judgements on America coming down, if we are not just in the "birth pangs", but a tad farther...and we may go farther before the Lord appears in the clouds...

Not so sure in Oklahoma:kiss::kiss:

PS, after reading the above response, I do know Christians will be taken BEFORE GOD'S WRATH. But satan's wrath..ummm, different story...still praying for the pre-trib rapture, but preparing for the worst!I would point out that, from a true Post-Trib point of view, the wrath of God does not begin until after the Tribulation, the 2nd Coming, and after the Rapture. The Post-Trib view, when properly understood, does not have the saints/Church going through one single second of God's wrath during the Day of the Lord. Unfortunately, the Post-Trib view is so misunderstood, even by its own adherents, that it winds up shooting itself in the foot in the hands of such people.