Does God discipline us with loss when we sin?

[itzme]

I would appreciate some perspective on this, since it has been much on my mind lately.

I am not proud of the next paragraph, but I will write it.

Starting from about four years ago, I have been convicted in regards to some sins in my life, I'll here just refer them as list abcd. They really are not ones that are so simple to get rid of, so I do struggle with them, and for the most part have not succeeded. If I have to be honest, I would say that I did not conquer, because I in no means tried my honest best. To be doubly honest, I would confess that I would say/pray "Yes Lord, that is a sin and I won't do it anymore." and go out and do it again. When presented with a choice that I had to choose between option a and b, a being sin and b being the good, I would choose a because I wanted to.

I do know I am a Christian, because at the same time I was growing and could feel myself in the love of God. I just found list abcd too hard to tackle, because change on that magnitude (saying adios to abcd) would shake the foundations of "me". I can understand God's motivation for leading me to change, I just said (and I am ashamed to say this) "no".

Well, being a Christian and I able to hear the conviction of the Holy Spirit, the pressure to address abcd grew more and more. I was able to continue in my actions, but what God wanted was more and more clear.

One night I had a dream where an angel said to me as we stood looking at a book, "If you do not repent, God will discipline you." I woke it, it was a very clear dream, but I ascribe no religious meaning to dreams, it was only after months that I began to wonder.

Meanwhile I kept on continuing with abcd-then all h-e-double hockey sticks came into my life. Everything went so wrong, it was like a comedy of errors-true DISASTER- like nothing I had ever experienced before. I have always been "blessed", "lucky" and so on, but for four months I would be hard pressed to find a single good thing that happened to me. Family, finances, business, and so on all unmitigated disaster. I really can't describe it, my husband finally sat down one night and said that we were cursed, and that would just about fit the situation to a T.

After a while I suppose the above drew me to come to the Lord for help in my prayer, since we could not survive much longer. To my shock all that I could remember when praying was my dream about the angel, conviction of abcd and a call to repent.

So no longer so sure I could keep saying no to God I did repent of abcd, and boy did I really mean it this time.

What makes the whole thing so unnerving was the instant I did was the instant to disaster disappeared from my life.

All good, but also scary, because it could mean that all the misfortune above was at the will of God, and we are not talking about little misfortunes either, they were things that had the power to destroy our lives.

So my question would be, was it discipline from God?

[RoadWarrior]

Hi Itzme,

Welcome to the forum. I see that this is your first post. It is rather a dramatic introduction, to say the least.

If all these things played out as you have described them, then yes, I'd be inclined to say that God is dealing with you.

If such as this happened to me, God would really have my attention. I'd be on my face asking Him what He wanted me to do next.

[itzme]

It really does make me quite shocked, and I am loathe to talk about in real life, but I though getting some opinions would be a good idea, because it really has shook me to the core.

Was it just random chance, or was it from God?

If it was God he really brought about some VERY damaging things to my life as his will, and he did it because of abcd.

If he did it because of abcd then I can conclude that I better forsake them, else it happen again.

And, if I don't address abcd will he continue the discipline? I can't emphasize how awful the last four months have been.

Thanks, to anyone who can give me perspective on this.

[RoadWarrior]

While I have not personally experienced anything so dramatic as you describe, I am personally aware of consequences of behaviors.

Certain behaviors (sins) have far-reachiing consequences. However, I have not heard of such consequences being so dramatically started and stopped as you express.

The only comparable story which comes to mind at the moment would be the story of Jonah. And God had a very specific call on his life, thus there was a specific reason for such dramatic intervention by God.

Do you feel that God has a specific call on your life?

[itzme]

No call that I can "hear", I have to say that I have lead a blessed life with the talents and ability to do pretty much as I desire, though I have not felt led in any particular direction by the Lord. I am kept pretty busy just keeping up with the duty of being a mother, wife, business owner ect.. I do have to freedom to choose what to do, so I have hopes of pinpointing what exactly I should be doing, as I am blessed that I don't need to work for money, I can afford to set my own hours at my business, and can volunteer as I want.

I am a pretty logical person, and I know if I heard another person say all of my first two posts, I would say that the odds are pretty low that such a thing being from God, and that God does not work in that way. I would try to get them to see God as loving and kind and get them to embrace a more holistic view.

However, since I lived through it, it really seemed to be a time where I was indeed connected to God and hearing pretty directly from him, though not a message that was very comforting.

When I did repent, I did immediately feel his love and forgiveness, and as I mentioned all those bad things just stopped. Its the strangeness of the situation that got me, and just how bad it was when it happened.

[IPet2_9]

Does God discipline us with loss when we sin?Not always. Often, our loss is simply a consequence of our sin. No intervention from God required. And there have been times when I have sinned, but He did not discipline me, really. Sometimes it was just God's grace. Other times it's because He had a higher purpose--He had other things, and other people, in mind, and I was spared from loss for reasons unrelated to me.

But sometimes God does discipline us. If so, praise God, because that means you're a child of God. And it means He is sparing you from something worse (and not just Hell).

[Jerome1]

Yes God disciplines those he loves, Hebrews12:5-13.

A couple of years ago when i was going through a very hard time, i used to randomly open up the bible, and it would often times fall on this passage.

[RoadWarrior]

No call that I can "hear", I have to say that I have lead a blessed life with the talents and ability to do pretty much as I desire, though I have not felt led in any particular direction by the Lord. I am kept pretty busy just keeping up with the duty of being a mother, wife, business owner ect.. I do have to freedom to choose what to do, so I have hopes of pinpointing what exactly I should be doing, as I am blessed that I don't need to work for money, I can afford to set my own hours at my business, and can volunteer as I want.

I am a pretty logical person, and I know if I heard another person say all of my first two posts, I would say that the odds are pretty low that such a thing being from God, and that God does not work in that way. I would try to get them to see God as loving and kind and get them to embrace a more holistic view.

However, since I lived through it, it really seemed to be a time where I was indeed connected to God and hearing pretty directly from him, though not a message that was very comforting.

When I did repent, I did immediately feel his love and forgiveness, and as I mentioned all those bad things just stopped. Its the strangeness of the situation that got me, and just how bad it was when it happened.

God just may be calling you into something deeper than you have imagined. You would be well advised to take this very seriously. If you find that you are still struggling with abcd, then be very honest with God and confess your failure. Tell Him that you want to say yes to Him, but that you need His help, that you cannot do it alone.

I am praying for you. The most important times in my own life when I "heard" from God were not comforting, but challenging. When He has to, He uses the dramatic to get our attention.

There are a few examples in the life of Jesus where we see His warning, to sin no more "lest a worse thing befall you." I pray that your ears will be open to hear His voice, and your heart will be tender to obey Him.

[crossnote]

I would appreciate some perspective on this, since it has been much on my mind lately.

I am not proud of the next paragraph, but I will write it.

Starting from about four years ago, I have been convicted in regards to some sins in my life, I'll here just refer them as list abcd. They really are not ones that are so simple to get rid of, so I do struggle with them, and for the most part have not succeeded. If I have to be honest, I would say that I did not conquer, because I in no means tried my honest best. To be doubly honest, I would confess that I would say/pray "Yes Lord, that is a sin and I won't do it anymore." and go out and do it again. When presented with a choice that I had to choose between option a and b, a being sin and b being the good, I would choose a because I wanted to.

I do know I am a Christian, because at the same time I was growing and could feel myself in the love of God. I just found list abcd too hard to tackle, because change on that magnitude (saying adios to abcd) would shake the foundations of "me". I can understand God's motivation for leading me to change, I just said (and I am ashamed to say this) "no".

Well, being a Christian and I able to hear the conviction of the Holy Spirit, the pressure to address abcd grew more and more. I was able to continue in my actions, but what God wanted was more and more clear.

One night I had a dream where an angel said to me as we stood looking at a book, "If you do not repent, God will discipline you." I woke it, it was a very clear dream, but I ascribe no religious meaning to dreams, it was only after months that I began to wonder.

Meanwhile I kept on continuing with abcd-then all h-e-double hockey sticks came into my life. Everything went so wrong, it was like a comedy of errors-true DISASTER- like nothing I had ever experienced before. I have always been "blessed", "lucky" and so on, but for four months I would be hard pressed to find a single good thing that happened to me. Family, finances, business, and so on all unmitigated disaster. I really can't describe it, my husband finally sat down one night and said that we were cursed, and that would just about fit the situation to a T.

After a while I suppose the above drew me to come to the Lord for help in my prayer, since we could not survive much longer. To my shock all that I could remember when praying was my dream about the angel, conviction of abcd and a call to repent.

So no longer so sure I could keep saying no to God I did repent of abcd, and boy did I really mean it this time.

What makes the whole thing so unnerving was the instant I did was the instant to disaster disappeared from my life.

All good, but also scary, because it could mean that all the misfortune above was at the will of God, and we are not talking about little misfortunes either, they were things that had the power to destroy our lives.

So my question would be, was it discipline from God?

"My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For athe Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives." It is for discipline that you have to endure. aGod is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Heb 12:5-11

When God chastens us ...it hurts. But He is doing it in love (ouch) and even though it is painful it is designed for our blessing in the long run.
Many parents today think that to ever spank a child is an unloving thing to do. Not so.

Proverbs 13:24 Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him. Even so God loves us in many ways and chastening is one of them.

[BroRog]

This may sound crazy, so if it matches your experience, then welcome to the club. In my experience, and I'm not saying my experience is normal, God does not create a loss in my life when I sin. Instead, his discipline is to allow me to get a belly full of it so that I see it for what it really is. The truth about it sets me free of it. But I suffer great pain and anguish as I go through it. The pain I feel, I cause myself. He doesn't cause me pain. In fact, I believe that he is right there to keep me from going too far and won't allow me to fall to my destruction.

But it's not like I never experience loss. This is far from the truth. However, I interpret loss as his way of testing my faith. He challenges me when I attempt to create an idol of something. If I ever get to the point where I think I need something to bring me happiness or fulfillment, he says, "let's see how you feel after I remove it from you." Do you still trust that I will keep my promise? Do I need to remind you where life is truly found? Do you think THAT will truly satisfy your soul? Are you really going to settle for something so transitory, when I am offering you something much more satisfying and eternal?

I have to admit to him, "no, you're right. I really don't want THAT as much as I want you and what you have to offer."

I guess I just think of God's discipline as his way of teaching me to make wise choices. It isn't really about punishment and it isn't about causing me pain when I fail. I think God allows me a broad latitude for failure and doesn't scold me for failure, but merely wants me to learn from him and gain in wisdom and learn my lessons well.

I used to wonder why God didn't just tell me what to do. I always thought to myself, "God, if you would just tell me what to do I would do it." But I knew I was lying. I would certainly try some of the time, but I would also want to do my own thing at other times. Eventually, though, I came to the conclusion that God wanted me to grow and thrive, not just survive. And if I was to grow and thrive, he was going to give me room to make mistakes as long as I was willing to learn from them and try to do better.

God is a good, wise and kind teacher, who is patient and caring. Knowing that, I do not automatically assume that when things don't go my way, it's because God is punishing me. I simply have to learn that I don't run the universe and that things aren't supposed to always go my way. :)

Anyway, if I had a problem with abcd, I would attempt to find the truth about them and once I did, I'm sure the truth would set me free. That's a promise Jesus made and he has been faithful to me. When I find that I'm stuck on a particular sin, I find that I'm not facing the truth about it and I'm not facing the truth about myself. But it isn't as if I don't know the truth, but the fact is, I know it but I refuse to face it. But when I have had a belly full of it, I face it. I admit the truth and I accept it and I approach God in humility and we work together on it until we beat it together. That's how I put it.

In Christian speak, I would say that the Holy Spirit convicts me of sin, gently but forcefully and when I have had enough of it, I cry out for help and his Spirit helps me. So I make it sound like I'm doing it but in reality, he is doing all the work. All I do is cry out for help. But one thing I no longer do is punish myself. I was worse on myself than God ever was. My script said I was unworthy, and no matter how much God tried to tell me otherwise, I insisted that he hated me and I deserved it. But that wasn't true at all. I was just acting out a script someone handed me when I was young. But one day, I just dropped the script and began to hear and obey the truth about myself. I wasn't perfect; I was a sinner yes. But I wasn't nothing. I am made in the image of God. I'm something beautiful but broken like a really nice car with bad steering that causes me to stear the wrong way and run over my loved ones. I don't want to do it and I realized that my desire to avoid it was something good about me. Some people just don't care, and they blame the victim for their sin. But I was being honest with myself as I took responsiblity for my sin, while at the same time acknowledging the fact that I reputiated it too.

Anyway, it's late at night, which means I should be in bed. Hope this helped.

[itzme]

I could not sleep at night, and in the end I had written a 13 page note which I suppose has given me more perspective. Abcd are besetting sins in my life, if I could give them up I would of along time ago. I will say three of them nobody except God and I know about them and the other four are things that people would normally call character flaws, though they would I think not know how damaging they were to me (I have to admit that God has them pegged rightly).

In my normal Christian life I do of course sin and get convicted of that sin, I may or may not agree with the Holy Spirit about it at first, but I in the end agree with God and confess repent and grow. I do see/feel much compassion, love and patience from the Holy Spirit. Sometimes that conviction does feel very much like strict teachings, but I always have a peaceful relationship with God at the end.

About what happened, the experience is still rather overwhelming. When the thought first came to me that my misfortunes were from God, I dismissed the idea, then when it seemed that they were, I got angry just because we were going through such a bad time, and to think that a loving God would do it was very disturbing. Only when the conviction grew so much did I actually humble myself from the anger and repent.

Now, I have to say, that it was me that was the problem. I was the one who did not listen for four years, on a pretty much daily basis. I am still rather shaken about the whole thing, but I have to admit that God's actins were justified, and that is a rather hard thing to admit.

Of course this leaves me with the fact that I still have to face abcd, and I am crippled from not listening to God in regards to them for four years. In my thirteen page tome I asked God to help me and I wrote down concrete ways I could react to them so at least I know how to act different and have some behavior to aim for.

All I know is that I really, really do not want to go through anything like the past four months again, so I am going to tackle abcd like I should of four years ago.

Thanks to all who read my angst.

[tt1106]

God deals with all of us differently. Sometimes he allows bad things to happen to us for a reason. Sometimes it's to build a testimony that he will use for his purposes. I've heard that voice also.

[itzme]

I did want to add for anyone who is reading this who is going though something like this, or reading this at some point in the future.

I realize now that God acted with kindness to me. Abcd were hurting me, and of course I knew it both before and now. I guess if that was the only way that I would listen, the actions of God were justified.

Also, he acted it seems with mercy, it did not feel like it in the middle of the experience, but in truth since I did not listen for four years he could have been much harder. For example he did give me ample warning in conviction, I guess he sent that dream (that I am not sure of, though it did come true, so I have to pass on saying it was a normal dream). He also restored his hand of blessing, when he really did not have to.

Most importantly I would not be writing this feeling once again his love and guidance and care over abcd, and me as his child. Except that I still feel shaken over the whole thing, my relationship with God feels normal and much the same as it ever was.

[tt1106]

Blessings itzme. I'm sure your testimony has already helped many people.
Go forth and abcd no MORE!

[RoadWarrior]

Itzme, thank you for sharing your story with us. Since abcd are ongoing struggles for you, I am going to move your thread to Breaking the Chains. I pray that you will find the help you need, as you cannot do this alone, nor should you have to. God created community because we need one another.

I am very glad that you have come to Bible Forums, and I hope that we will be able to walk alongside of you as you get free from the bondage of these things.

[divaD]

All I know is that I really, really do not want to go through anything like the past four months again



This is probably going to come off all wrong since I have a tendancy to be misunderstood. But the fact is, many of us live this life everyday that you only experierenced
for 4 months. Try reading the prayer request threads in this forum to get an idea. To be honest, I have never been blessed with too much, I have never really been lucky, and I consider that a blessing because it tends to keep me humble. The truth is, I tend to live day by day and from paycheck to paycheck. And besides that, if I lose anything, or struggle to keep my bills paid, this is no different than any other day. But there have been times in my life where I lost everything and literally ended up homeless. Now those were some very trying times, but the Lord always saw me thru it.

The thing is, I'm not concerned with being overly blessed in this life. I have enough patience to wait on those blessings in the next life. These are the blessings that matter most, because these blessings will be never ending.

I just showed you this from my perspective looking at my life. Now looking at it from your perspective, I indeed believe that the Lord has been dealing with you.
I discern that your testimony is truthful. But I also have to wonder if the Lord is not also trying to teach you something else here?

[itzme]

In my case I think it was a case of dealing with my sins, and I don't know quite why it took that form, except that it was successful.

On your point, I just seemed to be blessed, I cannot say why. For myself if I was poor, medium or rich I think I would be the same person. Before I was a Christian I was quite interested in Zen, and the idea of finding wholeness in the situation one was in (peace and tranquility in the now as opposed to striving for more), and carried that over to my Christian walk. I used to quite interested in the voluntary simplicity movement, and even now I try to not desire things, and try to hold that I could loose everything and still be content.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that I have been blessed. I do not know what God wants me to do with it, as a family we tithe twenty percent to those in need and I live a frugal life even though I could afford more. I do not think anymore of myself because we have prospered and I have given God the credit for blessing us. I don't think God has anything against prosperity, it was just his path for me. I try to walk it morally.

Even given my above thoughts, the fact remains that I do have a very complicated life. I am responsible for so many people, who rely on my keeping everything in order. I employ people, help people and am responsible for peoples livelihood. If I loose they loose. That in fact convicted me quite a bit, if it was from God what happened they were suffering for my sins.

This is a forum for struggles and I can see that I will struggle to. I am facing my sins, in a weakened position, as I said "no" to God for so long. I am strong now, but I know that I will struggle in the weeks to come.

[turtledove]

This is a forum for struggles and I can see that I will struggle to. I am facing my sins, in a weakened position, as I said "no" to God for so long. I am strong now, but I know that I will struggle in the weeks to come.

Right, itz, we are folks who, having struggled, understand what you are saying. And most of us have questioned the "why" of the bad things which happen to us. We aren't perfect and ..many of us have just learned lessons along the way.

I have found out by experience and my study of God's Word that sin is turning away from God..a form of disobedience. In Exodus we can read about the children of Israel who wandered in the desert on their way to the promised land for 40 years (a distance that would have taken a few weeks) because of their sinning and disobedience. When we sin we are walking away and losing our way. Sin can bring destruction and havoc into our lives and can cause us to lose our way and our focus. God is merciful and welcomes us back when we truly repent and ask for help to change which is exactly what you are doing here.

Mainly over the years I have learned that God allows things to happen for our own ultimate good so that we will turn back to him. And even when we do turn back it doesn't mean that something bad will never happen to us again. Life is full of challenges and trials..but when we are walking with Him and turning away from sin we have renewed strength to face difficulties in life.

In faith we turn to Him and trust...

The Psalms are full of turning to God again and again no matter what.

I particularly like Ps 40.

1 I waited patiently for the LORD;
he turned to me and heard my cry.

2 He lifted me out of the slimy pit,
out of the mud and mire;
he set my feet on a rock
and gave me a firm place to stand.
3 He put a new song in my mouth,
a hymn of praise to our God.
Many will see and fear
and put their trust in the LORD.
4 Blessed is the man
who makes the LORD his trust,
who does not look to the proud,
to those who turn aside to false gods.
5 Many, O LORD my God,
are the wonders you have done.
The things you planned for us
no one can recount to you;
were I to speak and tell of them,
they would be too many to declare.
6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but my ears you have pierced , ;
burnt offerings and sin offerings
you did not require.
7 Then I said, "Here I am, I have come—
it is written about me in the scroll.
8 I desire to do your will, O my God;
your law is within my heart."
9 I proclaim righteousness in the great assembly;
I do not seal my lips,
as you know, O LORD.
10 I do not hide your righteousness in my heart;
I speak of your faithfulness and salvation.
I do not conceal your love and your truth
from the great assembly.
11 Do not withhold your mercy from me, O LORD;
may your love and your truth always protect me.
12 For troubles without number surround me;
my sins have overtaken me, and I cannot see.
They are more than the hairs of my head,
and my heart fails within me.
13 Be pleased, O LORD, to save me;
O LORD, come quickly to help me.
14 May all who seek to take my life
be put to shame and confusion;
may all who desire my ruin
be turned back in disgrace.
15 May those who say to me, "Aha! Aha!"
be appalled at their own shame.
16 But may all who seek you
rejoice and be glad in you;
may those who love your salvation always say,
"The LORD be exalted!" 17 Yet I am poor and needy;
may the Lord think of me.
You are my help and my deliverer;
O my God, do not delay.

peace and blessings..:pray:

[itzme]

I am just posting a follow up just incase anyone is reading this. Yes, I still can never say if what happened was from God or not. The state of my life remains the same, still very good after such a period of disaster.

The whole thing I find very sobering, and I was thinking today that I was ashamed of my actions before I repented, and contemplating that if it was from God how much our happiness depends on such little things, and that he has complete control of the little things.

However, in the midst of feeling somewhat ashamed, I was brought to remember that I was forgiven and the most important thing was to go on to do what I was supposed to do and not sin.

I will also say that after the pain of coming to the point of repentance I felt nothing but love from God.

In case anyone is going through something similar I post this here.

[RoadWarrior]

Thank you for the follow-up! :hug: We always like to know how things turn out for members who have gone through struggles such as yours.

I praise God along with you, for that love that He is pouring out on you. One of my favorite encouragements is found in these verses:

Heb 13:5
...For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
NKJV

Mt 28:20
...and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
NKJV

These verses are especially useful on the days when I am not "feelilng" that outpouring of His love to me.

[IWalkWithHim]

You know, I'll share this as well. I have been through what your going through more times than I can count. I have grown to appreciate Hi discipline in my life and I'll tell you why. I had an "a" sin too, one that I struggled with (and still do at times) that really had God on my shoulders about it. I KNEW it was Him trying to get my attention to stop. All the warning signs were there. I recognized them but didn't heed them. Then in turned into much like you described with things all around me falling apart. You would have thought that would have been enough to grab my attention but despite all that, I still continued in that sin. Soon after, all the bad things stopped happening. No more warnings or corrections. Just........nothing. I didn't understand it at first and it kinda felt funny as in times past, I expected God to do something to let me know He wasn't pleased with my actions. So when nothing was happening as a result of my sin, I thought the coast was clear.

And then it dawned on me.

I had continued in this sin for so long that God had given me over to a reprobate mind. I knew that meant that God no longer was having any involvement in my life. I felt His spirit was VERY distant from me. Not gone completely but the sense of knowing He was there was not there. This troubled me greatly. I was regretful at this point and felt that I allowed my wantes to come before Him. As I pondered that thought, I wondered how it would make me feel if despite how much I loved my child and all the good advise I gave them they still decided to disobey me. And then out of love, I diciplined them and they still continued. Then to feel no hope and have no choice but to give them over to it. As a Father, it would hurt me DEEPLY but in order for them to see the error of their ways, I have to seperate myself from them mentally until they stopped. That is HARD. So needless to say, I had to go to my prayer corner and seek His forgiveness for it. I was SOOOOO relieved to have Him actively back in my life. It's nothing like having a Father that's not talking to you. Especially when you love Him.....

Just my two cents.:saint:

[Sold Out]

So my question would be, was it discipline from God?

Yes......and it's happened to me too.