Capital Punishment

[Welder4Christ]

We all know very well how capital punishment was instated in the Old Testament. God initiated it as just punishment for transgressions which He saw as fit, and Israel was to follow God's orders in this respect, because they were His chosen people, and their social system was to follow God's mandate. They were a "Holy Nation," because they were set apart from other nations as God's chosen people. Capital Punishment was initiated by God, and they were to follow His laws, and live as He commanded.

Fast forward to the New Testament....Nowhere in the New Testament can I recall capital punishment being condoned. It is not even mentioned. It was mentioned in the OT, though, and many times.

No longer do we live in a theocracy, primarily governed by God, as the Israelites did, but we live in a social system primarily governed by man. As Christians, we are to live according the the Kingdom of God in our hearts....this is how God governs us now, not through a political regime.
With all of that being said, do you feel that capital punishment still applies as a just form of retribution to us today? If so, then what is the criteria for it being carried out?

While I understand that we are to use wisdom in how it's carried out, the truth is, we no longer live in a social system that is governed by God. Ours is governed by man, and as such, does government still have the right to carry out capital punishment? I guess where I am getting confused is this...in the Old Testament, God specifically laid out those sins that deemed capital punishment worthy, but today, many of those sins, such as rebelliousness or adultery, we would not even think of killing people for these offenses. Punishment for such offenses wouldn't even apply, because we do not live under a theocracy, as did the Israelites. They carried out capital punishment because it was how the Lord said they were to run their nation.

On the contrary, our nation does not operate by such a government. As such, do we still have the right to carry out capital punishment...and if so, for what offenses? It seems that our nation has so misaligned itself from the rulership of God, do we even have the right to carry out capital punishment anymore?

I know that the book of Genesis says "If anyone sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed," and this came before the covenant, but do you feel that, as a nation, we have the divine right to carry out capital punishment, seeing as how we so sorely strayed from God?

[EarlyCall]

We all know very well how capital punishment was instated in the Old Testament. God initiated it as just punishment for transgressions which He saw as fit, and Israel was to follow God's orders in this respect, because they were His chosen people, and their social system was to follow God's mandate. They were a "Holy Nation," because they were set apart from other nations as God's chosen people. Capital Punishment was initiated by God, and they were to follow His laws, and live as He commanded.

Can you show scripture here please to support the position you stake out. You propose, it seems that God instituted capital punishment because they were His chosen people. Can you support this with scripture or is this your opinion? You also state they were to be a holy nation set apart by God. While that is so, can you give scripture to show that capital punishment was given as part of showing them separate and that is the only reason why? Can you show there were not other reasons why, such as a deterrence against crime, or as a means of administering justice for all of society and punishment befitting the crime as opposed to random and haphazard execution of justice?

Fast forward to the New Testament....Nowhere in the New Testament can I recall capital punishment being condoned. It is not even mentioned. It was mentioned in the OT, though, and many times.

You are asserting here that capital punishment was done away with by the mere means of not being mentioned in the NT. Can you give other examples where God did away with something in the OT by not mentioning it in the NT? Can you explain why God was so vocal in establishing it but so silent in doing away with it?

And finally, can you explain why you believe it was done away with by not mentioning it as opposed to God confirming it by not mentioning it?

No longer do we live in a theocracy, primarily governed by God, as the Israelites did, but we live in a social system primarily governed by man. As Christians, we are to live according the the Kingdom of God in our hearts....this is how God governs us now, not through a political regime.

You seem to contradict yourself here. You first say that we no longer live in a theocracy primarily governed by God and then go on to say that as Christians we are to live according to the kingdom of God in our hearts. It seems to me that God was over both the theocracy and over us either way.

But you are mistaken when you speak about political regimes. Paul spoke to this issue. Are you familiar with it? Where Paul speaks to God setting up the authorities, they would be political and worldly and how they have power from God to administer justice for wrong doing and that they wield the sword in the administering of that justice.

Do you think God through Paul chose the word sword as opposed to whip or rod for a reason or was it just the first word that came to God as He tried to think of what it was He wanted to say?

Considering the Romans were in authority then and the use of the sword was well known...

Jesus also spoke to the issue of political regimes when he said to give to Caesar what was Caesar's. So wouldn't you say that it would appear that God fully acknowledges the political authorities and their place in our lives from these scriptures? And if you do not, please explain with supporting scripture.

With all of that being said, do you feel that capital punishment still applies as a just form of retribution to us today? If so, then what is the criteria for it being carried out?

The criteria should be first a fair trial and the person ought to be guilty of the crime and the punishment should be fitting of the crime.

It is not retribution as you say but rather justice. Many people seem to think not putting someone to death is showing mercy when it is actually taking justice from the rest of society. When a person is found guilty of a crime worthy of death, to not put them to death is robbing the rest of society of justice because society is due justice -- not just the guilty party.

While I understand that we are to use wisdom in how it's carried out, the truth is, we no longer live in a social system that is governed by God. Ours is governed by man, and as such, does government still have the right to carry out capital punishment? I guess where I am getting confused is this...in the Old Testament, God specifically laid out those sins that deemed capital punishment worthy, but today, many of those sins, such as rebelliousness or adultery, we would not even think of killing people for these offenses. Punishment for such offenses wouldn't even apply, because we do not live under a theocracy, as did the Israelites. They carried out capital punishment because it was how the Lord said they were to run their nation.

You are right we do not put to death individuals for many of the sins or crimes that God commanded in the OT. And I think for the reasons you give, or at least to me they seem like proper and reasonable reasons.

But for your premise to stand, you need to show that capital punishment was given by God for only the reasons you state and not for any reasons having to do with authority, deterrence of crime and so on. Basically for all the reasons we believe it should still be in effect.

In other words, you are claiming only religious reasons existed for God instituting capital punishment and no other reasons, but I am suggesting there were other reasons, practical reasons as well. You need to show that is not so in order to isolate it to only religious reasons.

Again, I'll refer you to God's own words through Paul about the authorities God set up over man, political and worldly authorities to wield the sword to administer justice for wrong doing.

I'll ask you here to go read that scripture carefully and then tell me what you honestly think Paul is saying.

On the contrary, our nation does not operate by such a government. As such, do we still have the right to carry out capital punishment...and if so, for what offenses? It seems that our nation has so misaligned itself from the rulership of God, do we even have the right to carry out capital punishment anymore?

Again, here too I'll refer you to Paul's words concerning your very questions here. He answers them very well. And the Romans were anything but aligned with God.

I know that the book of Genesis says "If anyone sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed," and this came before the covenant, but do you feel that, as a nation, we have the divine right to carry out capital punishment, seeing as how we so sorely strayed from God?

How sorely had man strayed from God when God gave the above command you mention? Wasn't it murder that brought it on? God saying what He said about it? Is that straying from enough from God?

But where did God say that it is right and just and fair if and only if the government adheres to all of God's commands? He didn't did He? This is your thinking. This is you going beyond what God has said. Isn't it?

You are forgetting that society is due fair justice too.

[Welder4Christ]

Early Call;

While I appreciate your response, I think you have misconstrued my intentions. Not once did I say that I was against capital punishment, and if that's what was seemingly inferrred, I apologize. I brought up the topic because I have been discussing this issue with some other people (not on this board), and they told me that my stance in support of capital punishment was hypocrisy on my part. I explained to them that it was not, because God Himself instituted capital punishment.

Not once did I say that I was against capital punishment, but I am looking for feedback on these arguments, which entered my mind as I was dwelling on the subject. I guess I'm one of those Christians who prefers having all bases covered, but if it was inanity, I apologize. Now, in response to your reply:

Can you show scripture here please to support the position you stake out. You propose, it seems that God instituted capital punishment because they were His chosen people. Can you support this with scripture or is this your opinion?

Perhaps I was unclear....I was not implying that God instituted capital punishment because Israel were God's chosen people, but rather, that's why God instituted capital punishment in Israel....because they were God's chosen. In fact, Israel was the only nation in which God instituted capital punishment, precisely because they were God's chosen people. He didn't do so for any of the surrounding nations, because they were not God's chosen people. If they had instituted a form of capital punishment, would it have been blessed by God, as it was in Israel?
I guess what I am saying here is that, if Babylon, for example, had instituted capital punishment, would it have been favored by God? Perhaps not, because they were a wicked nation. We are becoming a wicked nation, as well.....does that mean that we will continue to have the Godly right to execute people? The way I see it, the only authority that we have to execute people is the authority given by God...if we, as a nation, are in rebellion against God, do we retain that authority?


You also state they were to be a holy nation set apart by God. While that is so, can you give scripture to show that capital punishment was given as part of showing them separate and that is the only reason why? Can you show there were not other reasons why, such as a deterrence against crime, or as a means of administering justice for all of society and punishment befitting the crime as opposed to random and haphazard execution of justice?

No, I can't, because capital punishment was not given to them in order to "show them seperate." They were given the authority to execute people precisely because they were a seperate nation. Now, for those nations that were not under the rulership of God....did they still have that God-given authority?


You are asserting here that capital punishment was done away with by the mere means of not being mentioned in the NT. Can you give other examples where God did away with something in the OT by not mentioning it in the NT? Can you explain why God was so vocal in establishing it but so silent in doing away with it?

I wasn't asserting anything....I was merely asking if it was done away with. Apparently, you believe it is still in effect, and that is fine.
I guess the best example I can give is the sin offerings, which were done away with in the NT, but you make a valid point when you talk about God not bveing silent in doing away with it, because this was clearly addressed in Hebrews.

And finally, can you explain why you believe it was done away with by not mentioning it as opposed to God confirming it by not mentioning it?

Again, I was not trying to imply that it has been completely done away with. I apologize for coming off like I do.
I guess the argument that I fall back on is this: capital punishment has been done away for many of the offenses that are specified in the OT, such as the 2 I mentioned earlier...rebelliousness and adultery. On this, God was silent in the NT....It does not say anywhere that we are to stop stoning people for adultery, but it is implied, so no longer do we stone them for these offenses.
On the contrary, every nation sort of makes it's own laws re: what offenses deserve capital punishment.....and none of these laws are directly from the mouth of God, as they were in Israel's institutions. So, then, how do we decide which offenses are worthy of death, and which aren't? Is murder the only one? What about treason?
In order to enact capital punishment in a manner that is God-ordained, wouldn't God need to be directly involved in the making of these laws? What if the nation is so far from God, that He has no place in it's government....does that nation still retain the authority to execute people?

You seem to contradict yourself here. You first say that we no longer live in a theocracy primarily governed by God and then go on to say that as Christians we are to live according to the kingdom of God in our hearts. It seems to me that God was over both the theocracy and over us either way.

We do not live under a theocracy....and the laws re: the separation of church and state make real sure of that.
The apostle Paul said that our citizenship is not of this earth, but of Heaven, which means we primarily live according to those laws established by God. It is the Kingdom of God in our hearts, not in the government. This is not a theocracy, as Israel lived under, because our earthly government is not ruled by God.

But you are mistaken when you speak about political regimes. Paul spoke to this issue. Are you familiar with it? Where Paul speaks to God setting up the authorities, they would be political and worldly and how they have power from God to administer justice for wrong doing and that they wield the sword in the administering of that justice.

Do you think God through Paul chose the word sword as opposed to whip or rod for a reason or was it just the first word that came to God as He tried to think of what it was He wanted to say?

Could you post that verse, please? Isn't this verse talking about the future Kingdom that God will establish on earth? If I'm mistaken, I apologize, but could you please post the verse to which you are referring?

Jesus also spoke to the issue of political regimes when he said to give to Caesar what was Caesar's. So wouldn't you say that it would appear that God fully acknowledges the political authorities and their place in our lives from these scriptures? And if you do not, please explain with supporting scripture.

Oh, yes....absolutely. We are to abide by these laws (even if we disagree with them), so long as they do not contradict what God commands of us in Scripture. Even so, that's not the issue here. The issue is.....does a government that does not acknowledge the authority of God still have a right to execute capital punishment, and if so, when?

The criteria should be first a fair trial and the person ought to be guilty of the crime and the punishment should be fitting of the crime.

It is not retribution as you say but rather justice. Many people seem to think not putting someone to death is showing mercy when it is actually taking justice from the rest of society. When a person is found guilty of a crime worthy of death, to not put them to death is robbing the rest of society of justice because society is due justice -- not just the guilty party.

.......and I agree with you. It seems as though the reason why people don't want to carry out capital punishment is not so much because they love mercy, but more because they want to alleviate their own guilt.


You are right we do not put to death individuals for many of the sins or crimes that God commanded in the OT. And I think for the reasons you give, or at least to me they seem like proper and reasonable reasons.

But for your premise to stand, you need to show that capital punishment was given by God for only the reasons you state and not for any reasons having to do with authority, deterrence of crime and so on. Basically for all the reasons we believe it should still be in effect.

I do believe that one of the reasons was for the deterrence of crime. Isn;t it ironic how our definition of "crime" has changed over the years? We no longer see adultery as a "crime," so we no longer utilize capital punishment. Obviously God saw it as a crime, though. Even so, I don't think anyone here would imply that we should kill people for adultery....and I don't think God would approve of that either.
I guess the next question would be "why?" The Bible declares that God is immutable, and unchanging, so then if this is so, what else has changed that would alter this?
The only thing I can come up with is that God initiated capital punishment for adultery, rebellion, worship of idols, etc., because Israel, as God's chosen people, were to sustain a standard of purity, and excellence. No sin was to "pollute" the holy people of Israel.
It is like that in the church today. Paul says that if anyone is living in sin, that person is to be ex-communicated from the church, so the church is not "polluted." Once that person repents, he can be re-instated.

In other words, you are claiming only religious reasons existed for God instituting capital punishment and no other reasons, but I am suggesting there were other reasons, practical reasons as well. You need to show that is not so in order to isolate it to only religious reasons.

I think there were a number of reasons...but what are the reasons today?


Again, I'll refer you to God's own words through Paul about the authorities God set up over man, political and worldly authorities to wield the sword to administer justice for wrong doing.

I'll ask you here to go read that scripture carefully and then tell me what you honestly think Paul is saying.

I will if you post the reference.


But where did God say that it is right and just and fair if and only if the government adheres to all of God's commands? He didn't did He? This is your thinking. This is you going beyond what God has said. Isn't it?

You are forgetting that society is due fair justice too.

You're right....He didn't. Again, I am not implying anything...I am just trying to calrify some things so that I can be a better witness to others.

Thank you for your responses, though. They were helpful.

[moskal]

Read John 8:1-11

This passage clearly shows us that we can no longer inflict capital punishment on those who have committed such sins. This woman committed adultery and all of the Pharisees were ready to give her the capital punishment. But Jesus clearly states how we have no authority to give her capital punishment when we ourselves have sinned because all sin is the same (James 2:10). So we have no right to condemn or give the capital punishment to those who have committed sin when we ourselves are all guilty of sin. Only one who is holy and has not committed sin can be the judge. This is Jesus Christ who has authority over all.

[Welder4Christ]

Read John 8:1-11

This passage clearly shows us that we can no longer inflict capital punishment on those who have committed such sins. This woman committed adultery and all of the Pharisees were ready to give her the capital punishment. But Jesus clearly states how we have no authority to give her capital punishment when we ourselves have sinned because all sin is the same (James 2:10). So we have no right to condemn or give the capital punishment to those who have committed sin when we ourselves are all guilty of sin. Only one who is holy and has not committed sin can be the judge. This is Jesus Christ who has authority over all.


.....but is that for every sin, or just the sin of adultery?

Also, does this indicate that Jesus "took back" the authority that He gave the government when He came to earth?

[moskal]

That is for every sin. You need to read the whole passage. Jesus is not limiting it to just adultery. He is referring to any sin that would have resulted in capital punishment according to the Law of Moses, which is what the Pharisees went by. Read the passage in John thoroughly then let me know what you think.

[Tanya~]

Hi Welder,


Fast forward to the New Testament....Nowhere in the New Testament can I recall capital punishment being condoned. It is not even mentioned.

It is mentioned:

Rom 13:1-7

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
NKJV


No longer do we live in a theocracy, primarily governed by God, as the Israelites did, but we live in a social system primarily governed by man. As Christians, we are to live according the the Kingdom of God in our hearts....this is how God governs us now, not through a political regime.

We are governed by God, but are also required to submit to the earthly government. Rome was not a godly government, but it was the governing authority over the people when Paul wrote the above. Rome did practice capital punishment. Capital punishment by the government does have the effect of ridding the society of people who do things deemed to be evil, such as murder.


With all of that being said, do you feel that capital punishment still applies as a just form of retribution to us today? If so, then what is the criteria for it being carried out?

The law of the land makes that determination, not individual Christians. So it is not for a Christian to seek capital punishment for things listed in the OT law, but rather to obey the laws of the land.

Ours is governed by man, and as such, does government still have the right to carry out capital punishment?

Yes.

I guess where I am getting confused is this...in the Old Testament, God specifically laid out those sins that deemed capital punishment worthy, but today, many of those sins, such as rebelliousness or adultery, we would not even think of killing people for these offenses.

The thing is that "we" aren't killing people for any offenses. The law determines what is a capital crime and the government carries out the punishment.

Punishment for such offenses wouldn't even apply, because we do not live under a theocracy, as did the Israelites. They carried out capital punishment because it was how the Lord said they were to run their nation.

Under the New Covenant, people who commit acts such as adultery etc., are not to be killed but "handed over to Satan" by putting them out of the church. It has the same result as it did in the Old Testament, which was to "put away that evil person from among you" because the influence of evil was a poison to that society as it is in the church.

On the contrary, our nation does not operate by such a government. As such, do we still have the right to carry out capital punishment...and if so, for what offenses?

Christians don't have any right to carry out capital punishment but the government does. The church has the responsibility of protecting the body by putting out people who commit evil, but not by putting them to death. Putting them out gives them opportunity to repent and return. You can read about this in 1 Corinthians 5.

Christians are not a nation or a government, but we are strangers and pilgrims in the world. Wherever we are in the world, we are subject to the laws that govern that society.

I know that the book of Genesis says "If anyone sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed," and this came before the covenant, but do you feel that, as a nation, we have the divine right to carry out capital punishment, seeing as how we so sorely strayed from God?

Yes, the government has that responsibility.

[Welder4Christ]

That is for every sin. You need to read the whole passage. Jesus is not limiting it to just adultery. He is referring to any sin that would have resulted in capital punishment according to the Law of Moses, which is what the Pharisees went by. Read the passage in John thoroughly then let me know what you think.

I know the passage to which you are referring, and thank you for that insight. I had actually never thought of that before. So, then, in refernce to my second question....does this mean that Christ took back the authority that He gave the government in regards to capital punishment...whereas at one time, He authorized it, He was now remitting it?

[moskal]

And in response to your second question, no not necessarily. God has always had authority ever since the beginning. But he did give the earth to man to govern. He put that in our hands, but He is still ultimate authority. When Jesus came He had ultimate authority. John 17:2 "For you granted him authority over all people..." God is and has always been the ultimate authority, but he allows us to have freedom to choose what we want to do when it comes to earthly punishment. That is apart of free will.

[Welder4Christ]

Hi Welder,



It is mentioned:

Rom 13:1-7

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
NKJV

Thank you for that reference. Verse 4 is especially helpful.

The law of the land makes that determination, not individual Christians. So it is not for a Christian to seek capital punishment for things listed in the OT law, but rather to obey the laws of the land.

Yes, but we are a government "by the people and for the people," and in essence, we collectively determine the laws. We do not live in a monarchy, but a democracy, so in essence, the responsibility falls on us. We vote people into office based on their stance on certain issues, and they make the legislation.

The thing is that "we" aren't killing people for any offenses. The law determines what is a capital crime and the government carries out the punishment.

Yes, but who determines the laws? We do.
I'm not talking about a vigilante group...I'm talking about legal execution.


Christians don't have any right to carry out capital punishment but the government does. The church has the responsibility of protecting the body by putting out people who commit evil, but not by putting them to death. Putting them out gives them opportunity to repent and return. You can read about this in 1 Corinthians 5.

Yes....I agree. Christians can vote for a candidate based on his stance on capital punishment, though, so in your opinion, how should a Christian vote...for or against?

[Welder4Christ]

And in response to your second question, no not necessarily. God has always had authority ever since the beginning. But he did give the earth to man to govern. He put that in our hands, but He is still ultimate authority. When Jesus came He had ultimate authority. John 17:2 "For you granted him authority over all people..." God is and has always been the ultimate authority, but he allows us to have freedom to choose what we want to do when it comes to earthly punishment. That is apart of free will.

So, then, are you saying that the government still has the authority to execute criminals, and if not, when did that authority cease?
If it ceased with Jesus Christ, then in essence, doesn't that mean that He took back that authority?

[Tanya~]

Yes, but we are a government "by the people and for the people," and in essence, we collectively determine the laws. We do not live in a monarchy, but a democracy, so in essence, the responsibility falls on us. We vote people into office based on their stance on certain issues, and they make the legislation.

True, but "we" isn't the church, but rather the citizens of the country.


Yes, but who determines the laws? We do.
I'm not talking about a vigilante group...I'm talking about legal execution.

But again "we" means the people of the US which isn't just the church in the US. That means not all the citizens are Christians.


Yes....I agree. Christians can vote for a candidate based on his stance on capital punishment, though, so in your opinion, how should a Christian vote...for or against?

Based on the passage quoted above which confirms God's unambiguous judgment on the matter from the beginning, I vote for.

[moskal]

So, then, are you saying that the government still has the authority to execute criminals, and if not, when did that authority cease?
If it ceased with Jesus Christ, then in essence, doesn't that mean that He took back that authority?


God has always had the same authority. Jesus Christ did not come to change the laws or anyone's authority. Matthew 5:17 says "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." God has always had authority and always will. The government has always had the ability to execute criminals. And they have had the "authority", but God has given man that freedom. Now, that does not mean that they have true authority though. I believe that what they do is against God. So although they may have the "authority" to do so here on earth, God is the true authority and will judge their actions accordingly.

[Welder4Christ]

Based on the passage quoted above which confirms God's unambiguous judgment on the matter from the beginning, I vote for.

So, then, what crimes do you feel are sufficient enough to necessitate capital punishment? Obviously, we aren't going to kill people for offenses such as adultery or rebellion, so then, if capital punishment isn't justified in these cases, when is it justified....and why?!

In your opinion, when was the government to stop executing people according to offenses committed under the Old Testament law?

[Welder4Christ]

God has always had the same authority. Jesus Christ did not come to change the laws or anyone's authority. Matthew 5:17 says "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Yes....and in the incident you quoted earlier, don't you feel that this was an example of Christ's fulfillment of that law?

God has always had authority and always will. The government has always had the ability to execute criminals. And they have had the "authority", but God has given man that freedom. Now, that does not mean that they have true authority though. I believe that what they do is against God. So although they may have the "authority" to do so here on earth, God is the true authority and will judge their actions accordingly.

Yes, but with freedom comes responsibility, and don't you feel that part of that responsibility is utilizing God-given wisdom to know which punishment should be enacted for which offenses?
How the nations honored God in their dealings...That is the criteria on which God will judge the nations, is it not?

[Tanya~]

So, then, what crimes do you feel are sufficient enough to necessitate capital punishment? Obviously, we aren't going to kill people for offenses such as adultery or rebellion, so then, if capital punishment isn't justified in these cases, when is it justified....and why?!

This isn't for me to judge really. God made the right judgments and our government has its own laws. Like I said in the beginning, I am responsible to obey God's laws, and the laws of the land. I'm not in a position to set forth new laws for our government that differ from the existing laws so I don't even go there.

In your opinion, when was the government to stop executing people according to offenses committed under the Old Testament law?

This government is not the Old Testament law. It's a completely separate entity.

[moskal]

Yes....and in the incident you quoted earlier, don't you feel that this was an example of Christ's fulfillment of that law?



Yes, but with freedom comes responsibility, and don't you feel that part of that responsibility is utilizing God-given wisdom to know which punishment should be enacted for which offenses?
How the nations honored God in their dealings...That is the criteria on which God will judge the nations, is it not?


I agree with you. I think that we should utilize God-given wisdom in our decisions of punishment. I am just saying that if we do not honor God in these decisions then God is the one to judge. He is the ultimate judge.

[Welder4Christ]

This government is not the Old Testament law. It's a completely separate entity.

Wasn't ancient Israel a group of people governed by God? Doesn't the book of Deuteronomy lay out the laws that they were to follow? Wasn't this the crux of their government?

[Tanya~]

Yes, the laws set forth in Deuteronomy and other books were the laws established by God for the children of Israel.

[moskal]

sorry i accidentally sent this again

[Welder4Christ]

Yes, the laws set forth in Deuteronomy and other books were the laws established by God for the children of Israel.

So, then, is this the reason why we don't execute people for many of the same reasons they did....because those mandates were specifically for the children of Israel, who were God's chosen people?

It does seem like the verse "If anyone sheds man's blood, by man his blood will be shed" is a little more universal.

Furthermore, capital punishment was to be carried out by the government, and not just by the Levitical priests....correct?

[Oregongrown]

We all know very well how capital punishment was instated in the Old Testament. God initiated it as just punishment for transgressions which He saw as fit, and Israel was to follow God's orders in this respect, because they were His chosen people, and their social system was to follow God's mandate. They were a "Holy Nation," because they were set apart from other nations as God's chosen people. Capital Punishment was initiated by God, and they were to follow His laws, and live as He commanded.

Fast forward to the New Testament....Nowhere in the New Testament can I recall capital punishment being condoned. It is not even mentioned. It was mentioned in the OT, though, and many times.

No longer do we live in a theocracy, primarily governed by God, as the Israelites did, but we live in a social system primarily governed by man. As Christians, we are to live according the the Kingdom of God in our hearts....this is how God governs us now, not through a political regime.
With all of that being said, do you feel that capital punishment still applies as a just form of retribution to us today? If so, then what is the criteria for it being carried out?

While I understand that we are to use wisdom in how it's carried out, the truth is, we no longer live in a social system that is governed by God. Ours is governed by man, and as such, does government still have the right to carry out capital punishment? I guess where I am getting confused is this...in the Old Testament, God specifically laid out those sins that deemed capital punishment worthy, but today, many of those sins, such as rebelliousness or adultery, we would not even think of killing people for these offenses. Punishment for such offenses wouldn't even apply, because we do not live under a theocracy, as did the Israelites. They carried out capital punishment because it was how the Lord said they were to run their nation.

On the contrary, our nation does not operate by such a government. As such, do we still have the right to carry out capital punishment...and if so, for what offenses? It seems that our nation has so misaligned itself from the rulership of God, do we even have the right to carry out capital punishment anymore?

I know that the book of Genesis says "If anyone sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed," and this came before the covenant, but do you feel that, as a nation, we have the divine right to carry out capital punishment, seeing as how we so sorely strayed from God?


is what came to my mind. The law was what we were given in the OT. Jesus came to fulfill that law, not do away with it, but to fulfill it, that much I know, or believe anyway:) We live in a "fallen" world under the rule of satan.

Your topic is probably the toughest I've seen, seen it before, but didn't get into it because it is that tough, for me. Ok, so it's gonna cause me to dig into the Word of God. That is a good thing as any christian knows:) Things come to mind like, all sin is equal, a sin is a sin? I might be wrong, gotta go dig. But before I go, I hear maybe God's voice telling me how crafty satan is. He wants us to fear, in a bad way. He wants us to look at things through the "worlds" eyes, not Gods. Are their real "monsters" in the "world" or only tortured souls that deep down want Christ to save them too. Are they born that way or are they created by those unbelievers that raised them? All that aside, do we need to burn them at a stake to protect ourselves against further harm, and our children. We all want to protect the little ones. What about the sick folks that torture animals? How does God feel about them? Are they beyond salvation? Is their sin worse? These are all questions only God can answer for me so I know what I will be seeking in His Word.

You want to know what I would do?? That's easy! Nuke them!! Give them the same death they've given someone else, make them suffer, in fact, death is too good for them. That is my "natural" self. But my new "nature", Godly nature, has lots of ???????? Good topic and thank you as it must be time for me to deal with this. Love you, your sister in Christ, denise

[Tanya~]

So, then, is this the reason why we don't execute people for many of the same reasons they did....because those mandates were specifically for the children of Israel, who were God's chosen people?

Our government is not patterned after the laws of Moses, so that's probably why we don't execute for the same things. There was a time when some of those crimes were punishable, but as our society has declined morally, the laws have relaxed considerably. There have also been silly laws for example here in Arizona, it is still illegal to allow a donkey to sleep in your bathtub, or to hunt camels.


It does seem like the verse "If anyone sheds man's blood, by man his blood will be shed" is a little more universal.

Yes I agree.

Furthermore, capital punishment was to be carried out by the government, and not just by the Levitical priests....correct?

Capital punishment in Israel was to be carried out by the witnesses first, and then the whole congregation. Here is what the Law says about the death penalty:

Num 35:30
30 Whoever kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the testimony of witnesses; but one witness is not sufficient testimony against a person for the death penalty.
NKJV

Deut 17:6-7
6 Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness. 7 The hands of the witnesses shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So you shall put away the evil from among you.
NKJV

[Welder4Christ]

is what came to my mind. The law was what we were given in the OT. Jesus came to fulfill that law, not do away with it, but to fulfill it, that much I know, or believe anyway:) We live in a "fallen" world under the rule of satan.

Your topic is probably the toughest I've seen, seen it before, but didn't get into it because it is that tough, for me. Ok, so it's gonna cause me to dig into the Word of God. That is a good thing as any christian knows:) Things come to mind like, all sin is equal, a sin is a sin? I might be wrong, gotta go dig. But before I go, I hear maybe God's voice telling me how crafty satan is. He wants us to fear, in a bad way. He wants us to look at things through the "worlds" eyes, not Gods. Are their real "monsters" in the "world" or only tortured souls that deep down want Christ to save them too. Are they born that way or are they created by those unbelievers that raised them? All that aside, do we need to burn them at a stake to protect ourselves against further harm, and our children. We all want to protect the little ones. What about the sick folks that torture animals? How does God feel about them? Are they beyond salvation? Is their sin worse? These are all questions only God can answer for me so I know what I will be seeking in His Word.

You want to know what I would do?? That's easy! Nuke them!! Give them the same death they've given someone else, make them suffer, in fact, death is too good for them. That is my "natural" self. But my new "nature", Godly nature, has lots of ???????? Good topic and thank you as it must be time for me to deal with this. Love you, your sister in Christ, denise

That's awesome, Denise. I'm glad that this topic sparked the interest, as the Bible says that He wants us to search the Scriptures diligently, and study to show ourselves approved by God. That's precisely why I brought up this topic, and it's good to see I'm not the only one searching.

I know that if we diligently seek the Lord, and search things out, His Holy Spirit will reveal His truths to us. That's what I love about being a child of God.

God bless you.

Love, your sister also, April

[Oregongrown]

That's awesome, Denise. I'm glad that this topic sparked the interest, as the Bible says that He wants us to search the Scriptures diligently, and study to show ourselves approved by God. That's precisely why I brought up this topic, and it's good to see I'm not the only one searching.

I know that if we diligently seek the Lord, and search things out, His Holy Spirit will reveal His truths to us. That's what I love about being a child of God.

God bless you.

Love, your sister also, April

All that truly keeps me going is His Word. He reveals as He sees fit for me to know:) Love you sis, denise :hug: PS I need not worry(although I do)because all my questions are answered either in the Word, or when I get to heaven;) Thats not to minimize the seriousness of our responsibility according to His Word though. But again, that's what I seek, is His Will, what does He want me to do concerning matters of the "fallen world":)

[EarlyCall]

Read John 8:1-11

This passage clearly shows us that we can no longer inflict capital punishment on those who have committed such sins. This woman committed adultery and all of the Pharisees were ready to give her the capital punishment. But Jesus clearly states how we have no authority to give her capital punishment when we ourselves have sinned because all sin is the same (James 2:10). So we have no right to condemn or give the capital punishment to those who have committed sin when we ourselves are all guilty of sin. Only one who is holy and has not committed sin can be the judge. This is Jesus Christ who has authority over all.

Well, let's be honest here can we? This is your opinon and that's fine as far as it goes, but I've read that scripture and I read no words by Jesus as claimed by you. I see nowhere that jesus says anything about capital punishment. And yet you claim Jesus "clearly states...", but in fact, the words do not exist.

So wouldn't it be better and certainly more honest of you to say, this is what I get when reading it?

[EarlyCall]

Early Call;

While I appreciate your response, I think you have misconstrued my intentions. Not once did I say that I was against capital punishment, and if that's what was seemingly inferrred, I apologize. I brought up the topic because I have been discussing this issue with some other people (not on this board), and they told me that my stance in support of capital punishment was hypocrisy on my part. I explained to them that it was not, because God Himself instituted capital punishment.

Well, it read to me as though they were your own words and stance. But now I know. Well, now that changes everything doesn't it. :)

Not once did I say that I was against capital punishment, but I am looking for feedback on these arguments, which entered my mind as I was dwelling on the subject. I guess I'm one of those Christians who prefers having all bases covered, but if it was inanity, I apologize. Now, in response to your reply:



Perhaps I was unclear....I was not implying that God instituted capital punishment because Israel were God's chosen people, but rather, that's why God instituted capital punishment in Israel....because they were God's chosen. In fact, Israel was the only nation in which God instituted capital punishment, precisely because they were God's chosen people. He didn't do so for any of the surrounding nations, because they were not God's chosen people. If they had instituted a form of capital punishment, would it have been blessed by God, as it was in Israel?

Well, I agree with you on this.

I guess what I am saying here is that, if Babylon, for example, had instituted capital punishment, would it have been favored by God? Perhaps not, because they were a wicked nation. We are becoming a wicked nation, as well.....does that mean that we will continue to have the Godly right to execute people? The way I see it, the only authority that we have to execute people is the authority given by God...if we, as a nation, are in rebellion against God, do we retain that authority?

Well, it's a good and fair question, really. I think that yes we do have not only the right but the obligation because not all are wicked. God has always called for justice and capital punishment is as I said justice for the rest of society. So I believe that yes it ought to remain as must every vestige of good that can be maintained, held onto and kept.


No, I can't, because capital punishment was not given to them in order to "show them seperate." They were given the authority to execute people precisely because they were a seperate nation. Now, for those nations that were not under the rulership of God....did they still have that God-given authority?




I wasn't asserting anything....I was merely asking if it was done away with. Apparently, you believe it is still in effect, and that is fine.
I guess the best example I can give is the sin offerings, which were done away with in the NT, but you make a valid point when you talk about God not bveing silent in doing away with it, because this was clearly addressed in Hebrews.

This is the major point. One of the arguments many against capital punishment make is that it is a very serious thing and therefore... Well, then therefore one ought to recognize the certainty and clarity by which God commanded it to be and the complete lack of certainty and clarity in doing away with it - as some claim He has.

People ought to quit letting their own personal opinions and emotions dictate what God actually says in His word. It is dishonest at best and a misrepresentation of God's word at worst. One can be against the death penalty without trying to twist God's word to match their own thinking.

Anyway, logic dictates that if capital punishment is so serious a matter, and it is, then the calrity by which God commanded it demands equal clarity in doing away with it.

How silly to think God would speak in riddles or simply allude to doing away with it instead of simply stating clearly, no more. And yet the same people arguing it is so important a subject have to take what God has said in the NT, which does not ever mention capital punishment and claim that it is in fact what God is talking about. utter nonsense. God is not that shallow or flippant with such matters anymore than we are.

The same people do not come into these threads and fail to mention the death penalty, capital punishment or putting to death when arguing against it but rather come right out and say it, and yet they cannot find God doing the same.

Again, I was not trying to imply that it has been completely done away with. I apologize for coming off like I do.
I guess the argument that I fall back on is this: capital punishment has been done away for many of the offenses that are specified in the OT, such as the 2 I mentioned earlier...rebelliousness and adultery. On this, God was silent in the NT....It does not say anywhere that we are to stop stoning people for adultery, but it is implied, so no longer do we stone them for these offenses.
On the contrary, every nation sort of makes it's own laws re: what offenses deserve capital punishment.....and none of these laws are directly from the mouth of God, as they were in Israel's institutions. So, then, how do we decide which offenses are worthy of death, and which aren't? Is murder the only one? What about treason?
In order to enact capital punishment in a manner that is God-ordained, wouldn't God need to be directly involved in the making of these laws? What if the nation is so far from God, that He has no place in it's government....does that nation still retain the authority to execute people?

I don't know the answer to all of those questions. I can hazard a guess at best, that doesn't make it gospel.

Still, if we are to guess, then we can look at the adultress brought to Christ and He did not seek her death. Now while some wish to go beyond this and claim it for all things, they have nothing to go on really but their own thinking. Hardly sufficient. But if we are to err, then we ought to err on the safer side and so we can say then, I think, we ought not put to death adulterers. We at least have some basis for this. Key word is basis.

Further, let's be honest and this is not the east and it isn't the Jews back in the days of Moses. We are not the same and do not have the same society. And it suspect that over time the west just wasn't willing to put to death unruly children and so on.


We do not live under a theocracy....and the laws re: the separation of church and state make real sure of that.
The apostle Paul said that our citizenship is not of this earth, but of Heaven, which means we primarily live according to those laws established by God. It is the Kingdom of God in our hearts, not in the government. This is not a theocracy, as Israel lived under, because our earthly government is not ruled by God.



Could you post that verse, please? Isn't this verse talking about the future Kingdom that God will establish on earth? If I'm mistaken, I apologize, but could you please post the verse to which you are referring?

Tanyap has listed the scripture. But no, Paul is speaking of the here and now. In the case of his immediate audience, concerning the Romans.

Oh, yes....absolutely. We are to abide by these laws (even if we disagree with them), so long as they do not contradict what God commands of us in Scripture. Even so, that's not the issue here. The issue is.....does a government that does not acknowledge the authority of God still have a right to execute capital punishment, and if so, when?



.......and I agree with you. It seems as though the reason why people don't want to carry out capital punishment is not so much because they love mercy, but more because they want to alleviate their own guilt.




I do believe that one of the reasons was for the deterrence of crime. Isn;t it ironic how our definition of "crime" has changed over the years? We no longer see adultery as a "crime," so we no longer utilize capital punishment. Obviously God saw it as a crime, though. Even so, I don't think anyone here would imply that we should kill people for adultery....and I don't think God would approve of that either.
I guess the next question would be "why?" The Bible declares that God is immutable, and unchanging, so then if this is so, what else has changed that would alter this?

God does not change in His character or nature, but He does change the manner in which He deals with mankind and His requirements of us. As parents we do the same with our children as they get older. I'm not implying as the race of mankind gets older... No. But the point is there. God does not require animal sacrifices anymore either. But the point of them never changed because they were based on something that could not be changed. God doesn't chnage in His nature or character.

The only thing I can come up with is that God initiated capital punishment for adultery, rebellion, worship of idols, etc., because Israel, as God's chosen people, were to sustain a standard of purity, and excellence. No sin was to "pollute" the holy people of Israel.
It is like that in the church today. Paul says that if anyone is living in sin, that person is to be ex-communicated from the church, so the church is not "polluted." Once that person repents, he can be re-instated.



I think there were a number of reasons...but what are the reasons today?



I will if you post the reference.




You're right....He didn't. Again, I am not implying anything...I am just trying to calrify some things so that I can be a better witness to others.

Thank you for your responses, though. They were helpful.


Hopefully that clarifies some more and now I know where you are coming from. I did not hit every point or question as I'm at lunch and want to move on to other posts. But I tried to be reasonably thorough.

[Welder4Christ]

Thank you, everyone, for your responses.