This one left me dumbfounded.

[ynnedenny]

Well, as I've stated before, I'm a brand new Christian, and as such I have more questions than answers. Well, a friend of mine asked a question the other day I have NO idea how to answer. We were discussing christ and faith, and he asked me "Who created God?" :eek: Well, it took me a few minutes to regain my senses. I honestly didn't know how to answer that. All I could come up with was "God is eternal... he always was and always will be." Well, that didn't satisfy him. I'd love to hear everybody's thoughts on this.

[Kahtar]

Rarely does the truth satisfy the unbeliever.
Fact is, you were absolutely correct. God has no creator. If He did, He would not be God. He has no beginning, and no end. He just IS. When He was talking with Moses, He said 'Tell them I AM sent you.'
Our finite minds are not able to wrap around the concept of eternity.
Everything we know has a beginning and an end, except God. A beginning and an end suggests time. God is outside of time.

[Tanya~]

God is the source of ALL life. He has life in Himself. It is hard for us to fathom because we do not have inherent life. We have a beginning of life, and then our life ends. We ourselves are created. So we have no concept of a being who is alive and has that life inherently. But that is what God is.

[Joe King]

They are just trying to fit God into human or physics standards. It's a common "attack".

[ynnedenny]

They are just trying to fit God into human or physics standards. It's a common "attack".

I don't think he meant it as an attack. I believe that he genuinely wonders about it, and for some reason, it's an obstacle in his path for truth. He's not trying to disprove my faith, he's trying to understand it. I think you might be right with your first statement, though... I thinik that's EXACTLY what he's doing.

[crossnote]

You can always counter him with 'if no God, then matter is 'eternal''. Now which makes more sense, an Eternal. creative,personal God or eternal creative (?) personal (?) matter? It takes umteen more blind faith to hold to the latter.

[Joe King]

That's a good one. I am trying to find an eloquent and succint way to say that the mere fact that you can touch something and it not disappear proves that something always existed. The universe has a definite beginning, so that only leaves one real option as well.

The devil is a masterful liar, he can make people think they are so smart and confident when they are so dumb and headed for damnation.

[9Marksfan]

I have a friend who has the same objection to faith - the eternal nature of God. I think it's important that we remember the Bible's explanation of why people struggle with these things - there seem to be three reasons:-

whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 2 Cor 4:4 NKJV

You need to pray that the Holy Spirit would remove your friend's spiritual blindness.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2:14 NKJV

You need to pray that the Holy SPirit would enlighten his mind to understand spiritual truth.

For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest to them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible men - and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts to dishonour their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen Rom 1:18-25 NKJV

In our sophisticated, Western society, man worships himself - his intellect, wisdom, knowledge, etc - you need to pray that the Holy Spirit will shine in your friend's heart to give him the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ (2 Cor 4:6). And it's very likely that YOu will be the means of him receiving this knowledge, as you share the gospel with him! :eek: Scary, but glorious! Pray for opportunities for God to speak His truth through you by His Spirit.

Here's something I realised as a very young Christian that may help your friend get over the problem of the "laws of nature": if God is all-powerful, all things are subject to Him - including ther laws of nature, because He created them and is therefore above them. HE is not bound by THEM, but the other way round - THEY are subject to HIM! :)

So just because we can see that all created things have a beginning does not mean that that "law" applies to God - for He is above it!

[Steps]

Well, as I've stated before, I'm a brand new Christian, and as such I have more questions than answers. Well, a friend of mine asked a question the other day I have NO idea how to answer. We were discussing christ and faith, and he asked me "Who created God?" :eek: Well, it took me a few minutes to regain my senses. I honestly didn't know how to answer that. All I could come up with was "God is eternal... he always was and always will be." Well, that didn't satisfy him. I'd love to hear everybody's thoughts on this.
You answered well.

But I add this detail, if you call it that. I copied this from my post in another thread a while ago

Here is how I percieve it.

First of all, God does not 'exist'. HE IS EXISTENCE. The absence of Jehovah, is the state of NOTHINGness, NULLity, NONEness, UNEXISTANCE. The same way that the absence of Light is Darkness...automatically. So darkness is not real. Light is. God is real.

Yes. The bible says that God lives in the heaven. Where is it? Do you think its up above the earth? (so high, like a diamond in the sky? just kidding) Let man invent his greatest instruments yet and set it loose to find The Heaven (where God is) in the celetials above the earth. They will NOT find it.

Remember God is a spirit [John 4:24]. Like its been said severally here so far, a self-sustaining spirit. His 'residence' Heaven cannot but be spiritual. It might shock the carnal mind when I say there's such a thin line between the earth and The Heaven.

When God allows a man see the spiritual, it is always a staggaring experience for the carnal body. The reason why God says any man that sees him (in His glory) will not live (Exo 33:20), is simple. Flesh, Clay, that we are, cannot contain the Glory. It will fall apart. It is not that God will slay the person.
It is only God that sustains those He has favoured to see His attributive personality...like Moses. Remember that the Israelites could not behold Moses' face after that experience? That was just a rub off of Jehovah's attributed personality (ie unglorified) [Exo 33:13-23].

Well Let me just stop here. Just know that you should NOT put a limit on Jehovah God by asking where He was, He is or Will be...

His name is I AM. period

Love In Him we live; In Him we move; In Him we have our being. He is all, in all, and through all. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist (Acts 17:28; Col 1:16-17)

Whatever happens, such questions must NOT sway you. Build a beautiful relationship with HIM and many of your own questions will receive answers as he reveals Himself to you by His Spirit. (1 John 5:20; Eph 3:5; Eph 1:9)

God Bless

[Xel'Naga]

Well, as I've stated before, I'm a brand new Christian, and as such I have more questions than answers. Well, a friend of mine asked a question the other day I have NO idea how to answer. We were discussing christ and faith, and he asked me "Who created God?" :eek: Well, it took me a few minutes to regain my senses. I honestly didn't know how to answer that. All I could come up with was "God is eternal... he always was and always will be." Well, that didn't satisfy him. I'd love to hear everybody's thoughts on this.

What kind of person is he? If he's into philosophy you could point out that such an eternal being contradicts no laws of logic, physics, etc. A being that is life itself and capable of producing life has obviously always existed. There is no 'before' this being and there is no 'after' this being.

Besides, to say something is God, the three omni's and then say, 'But He didn't exist at 'X' point...' is to contradict the discussion.

[Revinius]

First Cause theory helps too...

[Steps]

First Cause theory helps too...
Whats Rev? Enlighten me, pls

[ynnedenny]

Thank you all for your advice! I truly appreciate it, and I've learned a good bit myself. I will definitely use this knowledge and take your advice. I will continue to pray for him and everybody else in my life who has yet to learn the truth. God bless you all!

D

[Richard H]

Whats Rev? Enlighten me, pls

I did a search of this page and didn't find "Rev" (apart from your question or part of a word).

I'd say that when you see "Rev" it means the book of Revelation.

Rev 4:1 means: The book of Revelation - Forth chapter - Verse one.

Rev 4:1
After these things I saw. And behold, a door being opened in Heaven!
And I heard the first voice as a trumpet speaking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you what needs to happen after these things.

[Richard H]

Well, as I've stated before, I'm a brand new Christian, and as such I have more questions than answers. Well, a friend of mine asked a question the other day I have NO idea how to answer. We were discussing christ and faith, and he asked me "Who created God?" :eek: Well, it took me a few minutes to regain my senses. I honestly didn't know how to answer that. All I could come up with was "God is eternal... he always was and always will be." Well, that didn't satisfy him. I'd love to hear everybody's thoughts on this.

If there were such an answer, the next question would be:
"Who created HIM?" ... and so on...

When my sister was little, she asked "what was God standing on when He created the world?" :hmm:


Richard

[Revinius]

Whats Rev? Enlighten me, pls

Well everything that has a beginning has a cause. So when we trace back the universe to the beginning of its formation we get to the point where: 1. something came from nothing or the universe self-created which is implausible given something empirically cannot come from nothing; or 2. There was an uncaused causer, a being who always has existed and brought the universe into being (God). Where you go from that is up to you but the great discovery that the universe has a beginning has had many ramifications and First Cause theory points to an evidential first cause that could not have been caused itself.

From there you have either Deism or Theism. Deism is the belief of the blind watchmaker God that spun the universe into being then receded into the background. Theism is the belief in a God that has revealed themself and can be known. The realm question you have to get out of that is: Is it more plausible to deduce this first cause has a purpose in creation (Theism) or simply made a 'clock' and cares no more (Deism)?

Encourage your friend to self questions, to investigate, to doubt ones doubts. Christianity is a literal open book in which to openly question and discover truth. The bible itself is a living thing under God and vehicle through which He can be known. So once you have laid out the fact that a God plausibly exists point them to His Word so that they can experience the Truth that is Him.

God Bless.

[Steps]

Well everything that has a beginning has a cause. So when we trace back the universe to the beginning of its formation we get to the point where: 1. something came from nothing or the universe self-created which is implausible given something empirically cannot come from nothing; or 2. There was an uncaused causer, a being who always has existed and brought the universe into being (God). Where you go from that is up to you but the great discovery that the universe has a beginning has had many ramifications and First Cause theory points to an evidential first cause that could not have been caused itself.

From there you have either Deism or Theism. Deism is the belief of the blind watchmaker God that spun the universe into being then receded into the background. Theism is the belief in a God that has revealed themself and can be known. The realm question you have to get out of that is: Is it more plausible to deduce this first cause has a purpose in creation (Theism) or simply made a 'clock' and cares no more (Deism)?

Encourage your friend to self questions, to investigate, to doubt ones doubts. Christianity is a literal open book in which to openly question and discover truth. The bible itself is a living thing under God and vehicle through which He can be known. So once you have laid out the fact that a God plausibly exists point them to His Word so that they can experience the Truth that is Him.

God Bless.
Thanks Rev. I think I may have misled Richard.

I meant to ask ''What's 'First Cause theory', Rev?''.

And you are most Welcome Denny.

[Richard H]

Thanks Rev. I think I may have misled Richard.

I meant to ask ''What's 'First Cause theory', Rev?''.

And you are most Welcome Denny.

:blushhap: LOL at me.

(I can remember when THAT was an actual question I had.)

[Archiveit]

The first verse that came to my mind here was Rev. 22:13 (I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End (NIV)).

God is clearly saying here that there was nothing before him (and that there will be nothing after him. It could almost be interpreted as though he represents time itself (as we know it).

I realize this may not satisfy some unbelievers, who scoff at the idea of something not being created and yet existing anyways, but I would also like to throw in one more word of advice. Nobody has all the answers, so don't try to act as though you do. It is perfectly ok to sometimes just say "I don't know the answer to that question." I think that there are a lot of these types of questions that our human brains just can't full comprehend the answers to, but I am confident that once in Heaven everything will suddenly make sense.

[Marc B]

To say God exists outside of linear time as we understand it makes sense since he already knew the outcome of our destiny "since before the foundation of the world He knew us".

[dale1257]

Tell your friend to read "The Case for the Real Jesus" by Lee Strobel. Mr. Strobel covers many questions like this.

[Revinius]

Tell your friend to read "The Case for the Real Jesus" by Lee Strobel. Mr. Strobel covers many questions like this.

He just glimpses the surface though, a good beginners guide :)

[moonglow]

I always thought it was an odd question to even think of asking, who created God...I don't get that. Why does He need to be created? :hmm: The question itself makes no sense at least to me. But I also understand that we as humans know everything in our world has a beginning a middle and an end. God doesn't as He is timeless....He created time for us!

If we tried to exist as He does I think we would go mad...floating around in the past, present and future all mixed together...not really having a past, present or future actually. He set up everything like it is because that is the way we needed it to be able to function. Beginning, middle, ending. Seasons...daylight, darkness...life, death..the cycle or things.

Anyway part of the reason I guess I think the question in itself is odd is because for hundreds if not thousands of years, people thought the universe was eternal...had always existed and always would! That it had no beginning...so would have no end. Everyone accepted this with no problems...but they can't understand why God has no beginning? That He is also eternal? So if people could understand and accept the universe as eternal (at least that is what they thought) then why is it so hard to accept God is eternal? Is obviously not that people don't understand what eternal is...we apparently do...it just seems for some its easier to accept the universe is but not God...selective accepting here I would say...:hmm:

Of course now we have the Big Bang which proves the universe did indeed have a beginning just like the bible says but there are still some atheist that refuse to believe in the Big Bang..they refuse to believe the universe had a beginning...they insist its eternal...but then say God can't be...ugh!


God bless

[apothanein kerdos]

Well, as I've stated before, I'm a brand new Christian, and as such I have more questions than answers. Well, a friend of mine asked a question the other day I have NO idea how to answer. We were discussing christ and faith, and he asked me "Who created God?" :eek: Well, it took me a few minutes to regain my senses. I honestly didn't know how to answer that. All I could come up with was "God is eternal... he always was and always will be." Well, that didn't satisfy him. I'd love to hear everybody's thoughts on this.

It may not satisfy him, but it's the correct answer.

Think of it this way - all things moving have been caused to move by something else. Everything comes from something else. At some point, when you trace everything back, don't you have to come to something that is self-moving and caused everything else to move...an "unmoved mover?"

God, being non-physical, is not subject to the physical laws. Space and time are within the physical realm and, therefore, guide the entirety of the physical realm. If God exists outside of space and time then, in all logical possibility, He can be eternal by default because, having no time, He is automatically considered eternal.

Does that make sense?

[moonglow]

It may not satisfy him, but it's the correct answer.

Think of it this way - all things moving have been caused to move by something else. Everything comes from something else. At some point, when you trace everything back, don't you have to come to something that is self-moving and caused everything else to move...an "unmoved mover?"

God, being non-physical, is not subject to the physical laws. Space and time are within the physical realm and, therefore, guide the entirety of the physical realm. If God exists outside of space and time then, in all logical possibility, He can be eternal by default because, having no time, He is automatically considered eternal.

Does that make sense?

Very good. God is a spirit as the bible says...so of course He is not subjected to the physical laws.

God bless

[Richard H]

It may not satisfy him, but it's the correct answer.

Think of it this way - all things moving have been caused to move by something else. Everything comes from something else. At some point, when you trace everything back, don't you have to come to something that is self-moving and caused everything else to move...an "unmoved mover?"

God, being non-physical, is not subject to the physical laws. Space and time are within the physical realm and, therefore, guide the entirety of the physical realm. If God exists outside of space and time then, in all logical possibility, He can be eternal by default because, having no time, He is automatically considered eternal.

Does that make sense?

‘Makes sense to me, Apothanein.

The Alpha and Omega sees the “end” (as we might understand) as clearly as He saw the beginning.

I used to be an animator and there’s an animation technique called “onion-skinning”. It’s the ‘page-flipping’ animation we’ve all see.
Now we do it with a computer, but animators used to use onion-skin paper to be able to see some of the other frames while they drew the one on top.

I sometimes think of God as our animator. We exist on one plane – a 2-D picture plane or ‘frame’.
He can flip through the pages seeing any or all of the pages as He chooses.
He can make changes on any frame(s) in our future - or any leading up to our present or future.

He’s outside of our animation but He can (and has) drawn Himself as part of it.

It’s a simple analogy, but it “illustrates” :rolleyes: how He can be outside of time.

Richard

[lendtay]

Well, as I've stated before, I'm a brand new Christian, and as such I have more questions than answers. Well, a friend of mine asked a question the other day I have NO idea how to answer. We were discussing christ and faith, and he asked me "Who created God?" :eek: Well, it took me a few minutes to regain my senses. I honestly didn't know how to answer that. All I could come up with was "God is eternal... he always was and always will be." Well, that didn't satisfy him. I'd love to hear everybody's thoughts on this.

I think its hard to wrap our minds around the concept of something that has no beginning and no end. Because at least, here in earth, everything has a beginning and an ending.

But even if there were no deity - all creation had to come from something that was eternal. Just think about it.

[drew]

I have a friend who has the same objection to faith - the eternal nature of God. I think it's important that we remember the Bible's explanation of why people struggle with these things - there seem to be three reasons:-

whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 2 Cor 4:4 NKJV

You need to pray that the Holy Spirit would remove your friend's spiritual blindness.
I do not agree with this line of thinking. If it is simply a matter of having our blindness removed, then Christians would be able to provide a sensible answer - I mean a real answer, not a question-evading dodge - to the question of "who created God".

And we cannot.

I think that this is indeed a mystery that may simply be beyond the capabilities of the human mind to grasp.

And I do not think that the "unmoved mover" explanation really works. One problem with it is that it assumes that this "first cause" is exempt itself from requiring a cause. And there is no real way of justifying this assumption.

I guess my real point is that it is more truthful to say "its a mystery" and then show why this does not mean its not true, rather than to advance what are, frankly, often naive and incorrect "explanations".

[apothanein kerdos]

I do not agree with this line of thinking. If it is simply a matter of having our blindness removed, then Christians would be able to provide a sensible answer - I mean a real answer, not a question-evading dodge - to the question of "who created God".

And we cannot.

I think that this is indeed a mystery that may simply be beyond the capabilities of the human mind to grasp.

And I do not think that the "unmoved mover" explanation really works. One problem with it is that it assumes that this "first cause" is exempt itself from requiring a cause. And there is no real way of justifying this assumption.

I guess my real point is that it is more truthful to say "its a mystery" and then show why this does not mean its not true, rather than to advance what are, frankly, often naive and incorrect "explanations".

To sum up my reaction to this - that's absurd.

It's not evading a question at all. It's pointing out that the question is inherently flawed from the get-go. The question assumes too much in asking "who created God."

To say "it's a mystery" is an absolute cop-out - not to mention a heretical cop-out. To say that God possibly had a beginning is to say that God isn't God.

As for an unmoved mover, it's actually logical to believe in one. Infinite regression is considered illogical, thus to all actions that were caused there has to be an ultimate cause that wasn't caused itself. This is simple logic that has been accepted for 2,500 years. Nothing can be in eternal motion - at some point it had to have a cause (except for the uncaused cause).

[Tanya~]

Hi Drew,

The problem with this though is if someone or something else made God, then who made that? There does have to be a first cause somewhere.

Scripture answers the question for us:

Rom 11:36
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
NKJV

Everything comes from Him. He is the source of all things.

[apothanein kerdos]

Hi Drew,

The problem with this though is if someone or something else made God, then who made that? There does have to be a first cause somewhere.

Scripture answers the question for us:

Rom 11:36
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
NKJV

Everything comes from Him. He is the source of all things.

Amen to this. God has to be the source of all things, the first cause of everything.