Evil Inanimate

[oscarkipling]

As far as I can tell, Christians believe that there is objective good and evil. What does god have to say about intention? I mean:

Evil action + Evil intent
Evil action + Good intent
Good Action + Evil intent

Are any of these combinations even possible? What role does intent play? Can things without minds be evil, is there such a thing as evil without an observer? :monkeyd:

[Buck shot]

As far as I can tell, Christians believe that there is objective good and evil. What does god have to say about intention? I mean:

Evil action + Evil intent
Evil+Evil=Evil
Do you really need and example for this one?
Evil action + Good intent
Matt 26, Mark 14, Luke 22, & John 18 are the four accounts of when Peter cut off one of the soldiers ears that came to take Jesus from the garden. (these books are the life of Jesus the Christ from differant views) Jesus healed the soldiers ear but think of the confusion that this added for Peter. He was defending his Lord and then Jesus had to warn him that those who take up the sword will die by the sword. Wasn't long before Peter denied Him three times and had to repent.

Then God used it for our good, in teaching us that even when He was being falsely arrested He considered the soldier. This is great evidence of His love for us. While we were yet sinners He died for us. He did not wait for us to make the first move, He loved us first. He has already paid the price for your sin, even though you don't want to accept His gift.
Good Action + Evil intent

Acts 5 Ananias and Sapphira sold a possession and gave a portion to the church, sounds good don't it. The problem is they lead folks to believe they were giving all to the church. Therefore they lied. Their intent was deceatful. God struck them both dead on the spot in the church!

Then God used it for the good of the church in that it brought the fear of God back into the church and they were in one accord.
Are any of these combinations even possible?
yes, all are possible
What role does intent play?
This is the biggest role. Intent is what is behind all that we do. This is what God will judge the most. If you truly intend to do good and have any wisdom from God you will see a good way to bring about what you intend to do because you will know that the repercussion of an evil act will come at your expense.
Can things without minds be evil, is there such a thing as evil without an observer? :monkeyd:I don't understand this one? Are you talking about inanimate objects?

[oscarkipling]

Evil+Evil=Evil
Do you really need and example for this one?

Matt 26, Mark 14, Luke 22, & John 18 are the four accounts of when Peter cut off one of the soldiers ears that came to take Jesus from the garden. (these books are the life of Jesus the Christ from differant views) Jesus healed the soldiers ear but think of the confusion that this added for Peter. He was defending his Lord and then Jesus had to warn him that those who take up the sword will die by the sword. Wasn't long before Peter denied Him three times and had to repent.

Then God used it for our good, in teaching us that even when He was being falsely arrested He considered the soldier. This is great evidence of His love for us. While we were yet sinners He died for us. He did not wait for us to make the first move, He loved us first. He has already paid the price for your sin, even though you don't want to accept His gift.


Acts 5 Ananias and Sapphira sold a possession and gave a portion to the church, sounds good don't it. The problem is they lead folks to believe they were giving all to the church. Therefore they lied. Their intent was deceatful. God struck them both dead on the spot in the church!

Then God used it for the good of the church in that it brought the fear of God back into the church and they were in one accord.

yes, all are possible

This is the biggest role. Intent is what is behind all that we do. This is what God will judge the most. If you truly intend to do good and have any wisdom from God you will see a good way to bring about what you intend to do because you will know that the repercussion of an evil act will come at your expense.
I don't understand this one? Are you talking about inanimate objects?


Thanks buck, and yeah I meant like a house or a telephone book.

[Buck shot]

Thanks buck, and yeah I meant like a house or a telephone book.

No, they cannot do evil or good. If they cannot think, they they cannot count the cost.

[apothanein kerdos]

As far as I can tell, Christians believe that there is objective good and evil. What does god have to say about intention? I mean:

Evil action + Evil intent
Evil action + Good intent
Good Action + Evil intent

Are any of these combinations even possible? What role does intent play? Can things without minds be evil, is there such a thing as evil without an observer? :monkeyd:


That is probably one of the best questions I've come across in a while. To take your question further, is there evil without cognitive beings capable of performing evil? Can an animal perform an evil act?

I would argue that, in a possible world where man sinned and God wiped man out for sinning, but the consequences for that sin still exist (God decided to take a break before redeeming everything in this possible world), that it would still be possible for evil to "exist."

Evil, being the absence of good, would still exist and would still be viewed by God. Though it would be "natural evil" and not "moral evil," it would be evil nonetheless ("evil" in the sense that it is not "good" - "good" being how God intended something to operate).

As for intention, that is actually what defines sin. All sin (evil) occurs within the human mind with the action merely being a manifestation of that sin. Jesus even says when we have lust in our heart we have already committed adultery. When we have hate in our heart we have already murdered. Thus, our intent plays heavily into whether or not we have sinned in our action.

[DanDMan64]

As far as I can tell, Christians believe that there is objective good and evil. What does god have to say about intention? I mean:

Evil action + Evil intent
Evil action + Good intent
Good Action + Evil intent

Are any of these combinations even possible? What role does intent play? Can things without minds be evil, is there such a thing as evil without an observer? :monkeyd:I'd have to say, God has a great deal to say about intent. Intent is what gets generated in the heart/mind before it becomes an action, and since the heart is not hidden from the knowledge of God, it is safe to say that actual actions carry very little weight with God, since the intent that generated those actions is well known to Him long before the action takes place.

In Mark 7:20-23 Jesus said: "And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

With these words we come to understand that we can't fool God, because the very intent that drives our actions is as plain to Him as the actual actions, and in many cases even when no actions come about as a result of evil thoughts and intentions, the sin that is harbored in the heart is just as bad and worthy of punishment as the action could have ever been.

In fact Jesus taught that, for example regarding the breaking of the commandment about adultery, that the actual thought of imagining to commit the act, was just as bad as doing the actual act.

In short, I think intent is everything with God, which is why He had to send Jesus to die on the Cross and take our due punishment so that even with our evil hearts we could become worthy to attain salvation, otherwise none of us would ever even come close to making it into heaven, not even the most well meaning and "righteous" among us.

As for animals and things, they are neither good nor evil, things can not be held responsible for anything, and animals act mostly on instinct so they can survive, and they are affected by the curse of a fallen creation.

I hope that makes sense and is helpful to you.:)

[markinro]

As far as I can tell, Christians believe that there is objective good and evil. What does god have to say about intention? I mean:

Evil action + Evil intent
Evil action + Good intent
Good Action + Evil intent

Are any of these combinations even possible? What role does intent play? Can things without minds be evil, is there such a thing as evil without an observer? :monkeyd:

Sounds like you are saying murder without a witness is not murder ?

Or maybe you are saying evil is subjective ? So, some murders are evil and others are not ?

[oscarkipling]

That is probably one of the best questions I've come across in a while. To take your question further, is there evil without cognitive beings capable of performing evil? Can an animal perform an evil act?

I would argue that, in a possible world where man sinned and God wiped man out for sinning, but the consequences for that sin still exist (God decided to take a break before redeeming everything in this possible world), that it would still be possible for evil to "exist."

Evil, being the absence of good, would still exist and would still be viewed by God. Though it would be "natural evil" and not "moral evil," it would be evil nonetheless ("evil" in the sense that it is not "good" - "good" being how God intended something to operate).

As for intention, that is actually what defines sin. All sin (evil) occurs within the human mind with the action merely being a manifestation of that sin. Jesus even says when we have lust in our heart we have already committed adultery. When we have hate in our heart we have already murdered. Thus, our intent plays heavily into whether or not we have sinned in our action.

I guess I wasn't really thinking about it that way....I think there is a difference between thinking, intending and doing... even if its just procedural. Anyway I think I was talking about intentionally doing something evil, not that your intentions were to do something that happened to be evil...there is a difference in there somewhere I think....also could you expound upon "natural evil"? how could anything without a mind not do what God wants?

[oscarkipling]

I'd have to say, God has a great deal to say about intent. Intent is what gets generated in the heart/mind before it becomes an action, and since the heart is not hidden from the knowledge of God, it is safe to say that actual actions carry very little weight with God, since the intent that generated those actions is well known to Him long before the action takes place.

In Mark 7:20-23 Jesus said: "And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

With these words we come to understand that we can't fool God, because the very intent that drives our actions is as plain to Him as the actual actions, and in many cases even when no actions come about as a result of evil thoughts and intentions, the sin that is harbored in the heart is just as bad and worthy of punishment as the action could have ever been.

In fact Jesus taught that, for example regarding the breaking of the commandment about adultery, that the actual thought of imagining to commit the act, was just as bad as doing the actual act.

In short, I think intent is everything with God, which is why He had to send Jesus to die on the Cross and take our due punishment so that even with our evil hearts we could become worthy to attain salvation, otherwise none of us would ever even come close to making it into heaven, not even the most well meaning and "righteous" among us.

As for animals and things, they are neither good nor evil, things can not be held responsible for anything, and animals act mostly on instinct so they can survive, and they are affected by the curse of a fallen creation.

I hope that makes sense and is helpful to you.:)

yeah, thanks for your answer. also, maybe could you check out my reply to apothanein kerdos,and give your opinion as well. thanks

[oscarkipling]

Sounds like you are saying murder without a witness is not murder ?

Or maybe you are saying evil is subjective ? So, some murders are evil and others are not ?


I was asking some questions,I didn't mean for you to extract what my opinion might be.

[DanDMan64]

I guess I wasn't really thinking about it that way....I think there is a difference between thinking, intending and doing... even if its just procedural. Anyway I think I was talking about intentionally doing something evil, not that your intentions were to do something that happened to be evil...there is a difference in there somewhere I think....also could you expound upon "natural evil"? how could anything without a mind not do what God wants?OK, here are my comments to your reply to AK.

To answer your last question first, and without trying to get too philosophical about it, I believe that every natural element was created with a purpose, either to serve God directly or indirectly by being available and becoming useful to us, to allow us to use it and to shape it into something else that we can use, or at least something that we can learn from in some way, so I don't believe that things are inherently either good or evil, even though they were created with good in mind.

As for "natural evil" are you referring to animals acting in ways that we would consider evil? or are you talking about our "evil nature" as it refers to finding it easier to do evil rather than good? Please clarify. :confused

[oscarkipling]

OK, here are my comments to your reply to AK.

To answer your last question first, and without trying to get too philosophical about it, I believe that every natural element was created with a purpose, either to serve God directly or indirectly by being available and becoming useful to us, to allow us to use it and to shape it into something else that we can use, or at least something that we can learn from in some way, so I don't believe that things are inherently either good or evil, even though they were created with good in mind.

As for "natural evil" are you referring to animals acting in ways that we would consider evil? or are you talking about our "evil nature" as it refers to finding it easier to do evil rather than good? Please clarify. :confused

LOL I was hoping you would be clarifying it for me, I don't really understand what "natural evil" is supposed to mean, I figured that it was some christian concept that you might be familiar with.

[apothanein kerdos]

I guess I wasn't really thinking about it that way....I think there is a difference between thinking, intending and doing... even if its just procedural. Anyway I think I was talking about intentionally doing something evil, not that your intentions were to do something that happened to be evil...there is a difference in there somewhere I think....also could you expound upon "natural evil"? how could anything without a mind not do what God wants?

When I say "intent" I mean our intent with God in mind. Unless our intent is to bring glory to God in the manner He chooses (that is, in an ethical manner), then no matter what I do I am sinning against God. Now, what I do may not be evil, but it certainly is sin.

Intent, as in, what I intend for this action to be...that's a bit trickier. What if I kill my daughter because she had sex with a boy? I kill her in order to restore her honor (as some cultures teach), so my intent is good, but my action is evil.

As for explaining natural evil - got a few decades? :) That issue has been debated and attempted to be explained since about about the 9th century - I don't think I'll be able to explain it concisely here. What I can say is the basic premise is this:

Humanity chose to sin against God, bringing sin and evil into the world. By doing so, all things don't act as they are supposed to. They are not intentionally evil, but don't function in the way God intended (meaning they aren't good, which is evil).

Does that help?

[DanDMan64]

LOL I was hoping you would be clarifying it for me, I don't really understand what "natural evil" is supposed to mean, I figured that it was some christian concept that you might be familiar with.Well, in that case I guess you're talking about our "evil nature".

Before I give you my thoughts on this, please understand I'm not a Theologian nor a "Scholar" of any sort, which I believe maybe AK might be, but what I tell you comes from the heart and is what I believe the Holy Spirit of God has gracefully allowed me to understand based on the Scriptures.

As you mentioned in your OP, we believe in objective good and evil, with God being at the top of the chart and standing for ultimate goodness, and Satan being at the bottom standing for ultimate evil. The Bible teaches that we were created perfect, and therefore able to stand in God's presence and able to benefit from His goodness by being engulfed by it so that our nature was also absolutely good, however God made us with the ability to choose, which we call "free will" and in order to help us understand this He created a way for us to be able to exercise it by planting the tree of "the knowledge of good and evil". When Satan tempted Eve and Adam to disobey God by eating of the fruit from that tree, they came to understand what evil was, and thusly the "evil nature" was revealed, which is the ability to disobey God.

Ever since then man has been faced with a choice, to continue in disobedience seeking justification for our actions by listening to Satan or our own reasonings, thus yielding to our "evil nature", or to repent and humbly ask God to help us get right with Him by seeking to know His will and being obedient to His instructions on how we should live our lives.

So where does that "intent" factor we talked about earlier come in? well, it is still our choice, our gift of "free will" that has to dictate whether we follow after God with our whole heart, and mind and soul, and truly seek to obey His will even though to disobey by yielding to our "evil nature" is so much easier. And if our intent is to truly turn to God and away from evil, He will make it possible for us to achieve that goal, despite the times when our actions would seem to be just the opposite.

The same is true for those who appear to be "good natured" people, but the intent of their heart is to constantly disobey God not yielding to His will, but instead only seek to serve their own purposes and use others to achieve their own goals.

Does that help you somewhat? :)

[oscarkipling]

When I say "intent" I mean our intent with God in mind. Unless our intent is to bring glory to God in the manner He chooses (that is, in an ethical manner), then no matter what I do I am sinning against God. Now, what I do may not be evil, but it certainly is sin.

Intent, as in, what I intend for this action to be...that's a bit trickier. What if I kill my daughter because she had sex with a boy? I kill her in order to restore her honor (as some cultures teach), so my intent is good, but my action is evil.

As for explaining natural evil - got a few decades? :) That issue has been debated and attempted to be explained since about about the 9th century - I don't think I'll be able to explain it concisely here. What I can say is the basic premise is this:

Humanity chose to sin against God, bringing sin and evil into the world. By doing so, all things don't act as they are supposed to. They are not intentionally evil, but don't function in the way God intended (meaning they aren't good, which is evil).

Does that help?


thanks, I guess that's the reasoning that i'll have to settle for right now.

[oscarkipling]

Well, in that case I guess you're talking about our "evil nature".

Before I give you my thoughts on this, please understand I'm not a Theologian nor a "Scholar" of any sort, which I believe maybe AK might be, but what I tell you comes from the heart and is what I believe the Holy Spirit of God has gracefully allowed me to understand based on the Scriptures.

As you mentioned in your OP, we believe in objective good and evil, with God being at the top of the chart and standing for ultimate goodness, and Satan being at the bottom standing for ultimate evil. The Bible teaches that we were created perfect, and therefore able to stand in God's presence and able to benefit from His goodness by being engulfed by it so that our nature was also absolutely good, however God made us with the ability to choose, which we call "free will" and in order to help us understand this He created a way for us to be able to exercise it by planting the tree of "the knowledge of good and evil". When Satan tempted Eve and Adam to disobey God by eating of the fruit from that tree, they came to understand what evil was, and thusly the "evil nature" was revealed, which is the ability to disobey God.

Ever since then man has been faced with a choice, to continue in disobedience seeking justification for our actions by listening to Satan or our own reasonings, thus yielding to our "evil nature", or to repent and humbly ask God to help us get right with Him by seeking to know His will and being obedient to His instructions on how we should live our lives.

So where does that "intent" factor we talked about earlier come in? well, it is still our choice, our gift of "free will" that has to dictate whether we follow after God with our whole heart, and mind and soul, and truly seek to obey His will even though to disobey by yielding to our "evil nature" is so much easier. And if our intent is to truly turn to God and away from evil, He will make it possible for us to achieve that goal, despite the times when our actions would seem to be just the opposite.

The same is true for those who appear to be "good natured" people, but the intent of their heart is to constantly disobey God not yielding to His will, but instead only seek to serve their own purposes and use others to achieve their own goals.

Does that help you somewhat? :)

well alright, thanks.

[Sold Out]

As far as I can tell, Christians believe that there is objective good and evil. What does god have to say about intention? I mean:

Evil action + Evil intent
Evil action + Good intent
Good Action + Evil intent

Are any of these combinations even possible? What role does intent play? Can things without minds be evil, is there such a thing as evil without an observer? :monkeyd:

The short answer is that yes, there is absolute truth regarding good & evil, which are both determined in light of the Bible. Buckshot gave some great examples.

Evil ALWAYS has an observer - God.