My stance

[Tuto]

I am not really that familiar with the bible. I have heard and read a few passages from it, i have been in a church a few times, but nothing more. I don't doubt that there are a lot of positive things in the bible about Jesus etc. But the Christian god himself seems like somebody you want to avoid. I have heard certain passages about how he kills people, about the laws he has imposed upon us and ultimately you get the feeling that A. he is not very competent and b. he is not very nice. These few qualities lead me to the conclusion that i could never have any respect for a being like this, assuming it is real.

[moonglow]

I am not really that familiar with the bible. I have heard and read a few passages from it, i have been in a church a few times, but nothing more. I don't doubt that there are a lot of positive things in the bible about Jesus etc. But the Christian god himself seems like somebody you want to avoid. I have heard certain passages about how he kills people, about the laws he has imposed upon us and ultimately you get the feeling that A. he is not very competent and b. he is not very nice. These few qualities lead me to the conclusion that i could never have any respect for a being like this, assuming it is real.

How can you make a stance on something you know so little about? That doesn't make much sense to me. That is like me hearing rumors some state has rude people in it so refusing to ever move there even though my job wants me too and I would get a huge raise and live in a wonderful home...telling my boss oh I heard there are rude people there so it must be true and I won't go! Then I get fired ...:rolleyes:

Then years later I go there to check it out and find out the people were really nice and the state was full of beautiful mountains and great fishing in the streams and the cost of living was low and I hit myself in the head for not checking it out myself years ago...but its too late now since I lost that job!

[apothanein kerdos]

I am not really that familiar with the bible. I have heard and read a few passages from it, i have been in a church a few times, but nothing more. I don't doubt that there are a lot of positive things in the bible about Jesus etc. But the Christian god himself seems like somebody you want to avoid. I have heard certain passages about how he kills people, about the laws he has imposed upon us and ultimately you get the feeling that A. he is not very competent and b. he is not very nice. These few qualities lead me to the conclusion that i could never have any respect for a being like this, assuming it is real.

How can you take such a stance when you haven't read the Bible? ;)

That's like me saying, "I've never read anything about evolution, just a few bits here and there, but never anything in depth...but I just don't like it."

[Tuto]

How can you make a stance on something you know so little about? That doesn't make much sense to me. That is like me hearing rumors some state has rude people in it so refusing to ever move there even though my job wants me too and I would get a huge raise and live in a wonderful home...telling my boss oh I heard there are rude people there so it must be true and I won't go! Then I get fired ...:rolleyes:

Then years later I go there to check it out and find out the people were really nice and the state was full of beautiful mountains and great fishing in the streams and the cost of living was low and I hit myself in the head for not checking it out myself years ago...but its too late now since I lost that job!

I just follow the few pieces of information that i think are enough to make my judgement.
A. He has killed people, even though he had to power not to.
B. He lets people go to hell even though he has the power not to
C. He imposes laws that i don't agree with

I think these lines are enough to judge and base my stance upon.

[apothanein kerdos]

I just follow the few pieces of information that i think are enough to make my judgement.
A. He has killed people, even though he had to power not to.
B. He lets people go to hell even though he has the power not to
C. He imposes laws that i don't agree with

I think these lines are enough to judge and base my stance upon.

...but all three are completely faulty. For one, without knowing the attributes of God or why He does things a certain way (available only from Scripture) it isn't possible to come to the first two conclusions. As for the third one, it's erroneous. If God exists, if He has made man in His image, if He imparts moral law as an extension of His nature, and if man is fallen and doesn't always understand God's moral law, then man is in no position to judge God's moral codes. Why is your view of morality any better than His? How do you know what you value as "right" is actually "wrong?" Do you suppose to be infallible in your moral judgments?

[Tuto]

How can you take such a stance when you haven't read the Bible? ;)

That's like me saying, "I've never read anything about evolution, just a few bits here and there, but never anything in depth...but I just don't like it."

No offence but don't many Christians just do that:lol:? Deny evolution based nothing more but their faith ?. I know this is a bit of subject, but once a Christian came to me and said that evolution is only theory among many others. Naturally i shouldn't draw any conclusions based on a single individual, so enough about that.

[apothanein kerdos]

No offence but don't many Christians just do that:lol:? Deny evolution based nothing more but their faith ?. I know this is a bit of subject, but once a Christian came to me and said that evolution is only theory among many others. Naturally i shouldn't draw any conclusions based on a single individual, so enough about that.

Of course a lot of Christians do that, but it doesn't make the activity any less fallacious. That's the point I'm trying to make - how are you any different than a Christian that does that? Wouldn't this mean you can no longer criticize a dissenter of evolution for not studying it?

Before I criticized aspects of evolution, I spent vast hours studying not only the basic science behind it, but the philosophy that guides naturalistic evolution (as opposed to theistic evolution). Before I came to a conclusion on the matter, I studied it (I actually spent time reading The Origin of Species and The Descent of Man...two of the most boring books ever written...ever). I wish all Christians would do the same.

Likewise, in your own criticism, how can you properly criticize when you haven't studied the issue? Are you willing to study it? Are you willing to buy/check out books that deal with the issue (at least in part)? Are you willing to read articles sent your way that explain why God acts the way He does? Are you willing to read the Bible?

I don't ask any of this with an aura of superiority or anything else, I actually ask it all as an honest question. Do you really want an answer and do you really want to understand Christianity, or do you wish to draw judgments on something you haven't studied?

[Tuto]

...but all three are completely faulty. For one, without knowing the attributes of God or why He does things a certain way (available only from Scripture) it isn't possible to come to the first two conclusions. As for the third one, it's erroneous. If God exists, if He has made man in His image, if He imparts moral law as an extension of His nature, and if man is fallen and doesn't always understand God's moral law, then man is in no position to judge God's moral codes. Why is your view of morality any better than His? How do you know what you value as "right" is actually "wrong?" Do you suppose to be infallible in your moral judgments?

But does the why really matter? I mean if you kill people even though you had the choice not to is there any excuse?
My values are based on what i feel is good and make the society i live in a better place. Naturally some laws in the bible are very useful for even the current societies, but many of them are out dated and don't fit modern societies with advanced knowledge in science and the world around us.

[RoadWarrior]

But does the why really matter? I mean if you kill people even though you had the choice not to is there any excuse?
My values are based on what i feel is good and make the society i live in a better place. Naturally some laws in the bible are very useful for even the current societies, but many of them are out dated and don't fit modern societies with advanced knowledge in science and the world around us.


Consider this from a different viewpoint. He has allowed you to continue to live when He could just as easily end your life at any point. He created you, therefore He has the right to destroy you.

Consider a potter who makes pots from clay, if one that he is making doesn't turn out as he wishes, he will smash it down and start over with the lump of clay.

Consider the artist who makes drawing after drawing, and crumples them all because they don't turn out as desired.

Do you condemn the potter and the artist?

God is much greater than any earthly potter or artist. He created everything that there is, including every animal and every human being. Death is a part of life for everyone, sooner or later we all die in our human flesh. God also has the power to redeem that life, and take the soul/spirit of the person into eternity with Himself.

Which do you prefer? Destruction or eternal life with God?

God does not answer to man, to that which He created by His own will and choice. But every man will stand accountable before God, as to whether we have done that which we were designed by Him to obey, to do and to accomplish.

[Tuto]

Of course a lot of Christians do that, but it doesn't make the activity any less fallacious. That's the point I'm trying to make - how are you any different than a Christian that does that? Wouldn't this mean you can no longer criticize a dissenter of evolution for not studying it?

Before I criticized aspects of evolution, I spent vast hours studying not only the basic science behind it, but the philosophy that guides naturalistic evolution (as opposed to theistic evolution). Before I came to a conclusion on the matter, I studied it (I actually spent time reading The Origin of Species and The Descent of Man...two of the most boring books ever written...ever). I wish all Christians would do the same.

Likewise, in your own criticism, how can you properly criticize when you haven't studied the issue? Are you willing to study it? Are you willing to buy/check out books that deal with the issue (at least in part)? Are you willing to read articles sent your way that explain why God acts the way He does? Are you willing to read the Bible?

I don't ask any of this with an aura of superiority or anything else, I actually ask it all as an honest question. Do you really want an answer and do you really want to understand Christianity, or do you wish to draw judgments on something you haven't studied?

I have thought about reading the bible trough, just to see what everybody is talking about :lol:. The thing is though, i have no spirituality in me. Thats why i don't think religion is the thing for me. If you say study evolution i say OK because it has grounding in reality, say study history i will do it with a smile on my face. But when you are supposed to study religion with the spirituality aspect in mind, i don't think i am up for it.

[Tuto]

Consider this from a different viewpoint. He has allowed you to continue to live when He could just as easily end your life at any point. He created you, therefore He has the right to destroy you.

Consider a potter who makes pots from clay, if one that he is making doesn't turn out as he wishes, he will smash it down and start over with the lump of clay.

Consider the artist who makes drawing after drawing, and crumples them all because they don't turn out as desired.

Do you condemn the potter and the artist?

God is much greater than any earthly potter or artist. He created everything that there is, including every animal and every human being. Death is a part of life for everyone, sooner or later we all die in our human flesh. God also has the power to redeem that life, and take the soul/spirit of the person into eternity with Himself.

Which do you prefer? Destruction or eternal life with God?

God does not answer to man, to that which He created by His own will and choice. But every man will stand accountable before God, as to whether we have done that which we were designed by Him to obey, to do and to accomplish.

Even if what you say is true, that would only make me fear and hate him and definitely not respect him.

[Tanya~]

Tuto,

Do you have a question about our faith that we can answer for you?

[Tuto]

Tuto,

Do you have a question about our faith that we can answer for you?

No, besides the ones I originally posted, and i got good answers to them so thanks a lot

[DanDMan64]

I am not really that familiar with the bible. I have heard and read a few passages from it, i have been in a church a few times, but nothing more. I don't doubt that there are a lot of positive things in the bible about Jesus etc. But the Christian god himself seems like somebody you want to avoid. I have heard certain passages about how he kills people, about the laws he has imposed upon us and ultimately you get the feeling that A. he is not very competent and b. he is not very nice. These few qualities lead me to the conclusion that i could never have any respect for a being like this, assuming it is real.Hi Tuto, as TanyaP suggested, this board works better when you start-out with a specific question and then we can go from there by trying to answer it.

Staring a thread with a statement like the one you've started here, leaves it up to us to try to figure-out what it is that you ultimately want to know, and could cause the thread to spin-off in all kinds of directions.

Is your question then, "Why should I bother to try to learn about "the Christian God" at all? :hmm:

[Tanya~]

Thanks to everyone for replying, but because the OP isn't a question for Christians to answer, we need to close the thread. Please feel free Tuto to start a new thread that is in keeping with the rules of the forum. Thanks!