Things I Think I learned II: The Reckoning

[oscarkipling]

So here is some other things that I think I learned..its a work in progress and i'm sure I missed some stuff, but I wanted to stick to generalities as much as possible and then in later discussions I can get more specific I guess....This is posted here for discussion, Also if you are going to post biblical verses please include an explanation.


On the Obviousness of God
The existence of the God of the Christian bible is obvious to everyone. All contrary beliefs are obviously false and all contrary evidence is obviously contrived. A non-Christian person willfully chooses not to believe the obvious truth because they don’t want to be a Christian.

On Christians
A Christian is a person who has become saved, and continues to abide by God’s will. A Christian will always be able know what God’s will is in relation to themselves.

On Salvation
In order to be saved a person must acknowledge the truth of God’s existence; they must also acknowledge that Jesus is their savior. The person must acknowledge that they are a sinner and ask for forgiveness. Salvation is guaranteed to anyone that does this. All of these things may or may not be obvious to every human being. There is some confusion as to whether or not failure to abide by God’s will subsequent to the initial salvation custom being performed will earn a Christian damnation or if salvation is guaranteed regardless, but it is fairly clear that blasphemy will earn a Christian eternal damnation.

On Blasphemy
A person that recognizes an act of God and tells other people or themselves instead that it was an act of Satan is a blasphemer. This may only apply to those persons who know that God and Satan exist. It could be argued though that everyone knows that God exists, making everyone eligible to blaspheme.

On Spiritual Understanding & the Holy Spirit
The idea is that the human being is corrupt, incapable of making good decisions for the good of themselves or others. The idea is that we are capable of making the decision to stop making decisions and let God make them for us. The part of a human being that is sensitive to God’s will is incorruptible; I imagine that this is the oft talked about Holy Spirit. When a person becomes a Christian the Holy Spirit becomes a part of them, and they become capable of recognizing the will of God all of the time without confusion, but may choose not to. A Christian may willfully ignore God’s will, this is always a conscious choice because God’s will is apparent to a holy spirit filled Christian in any given situation. Christians can know 100% of the time when they are wrong because they are privy to Gods infallible will. There are no mistakes for Christians, that is, Christians cannot make the wrong choice due confusion because God’s will can be consulted and interpreted correctly without fail.


On God’s will
God’s will can be anything at a given time in a given situation, but whatever it appears to be at the moment a Christian perceives it, it is always the right and good thing. God’s will does not change and cannot be understood in its entirety. It can only be understood in relation to the individual Christian. God’s will does not have to be obeyed.

On God’s Plan
God’s will in action.

On Sin and Evil
All sin is evil and evil all evil is sin. They are both anything that is out of alignment the will of God. Christians are capable of recognizing evil and sin with complete accuracy because they are capable of knowing what God’s will is in a given situation. Anything, animate or inanimate is capable of sin and evil as long as it does not do what God wants it to do.

On God
God is not everything, nor is he in everything. God is also not everywhere.

On Satan
Satan’s only purpose is to bring things out of alignment with God’s will. People are perfectly capable of doing this on their own, but he is in an enabler. He also runs hell, and earth I think.

On Faith & Belief
When a Christian has faith in God he will do anything that they ask of him, as long as they don’t ask him for something that he doesn’t want to provide. The power of faith Is contingent on God’s will, no matter how much faith a Christian may have God will only do what he wants to do. Christians are always able to know what God doesn’t want them to want, and they don’t want to want things that God does not want them to want, but they still want them sometimes. Wanting those things is evil and sinful.

On Answers
God will always truthfully answer a believer’s question, but he won’t necessarily be specific. A suitable answer to any question that can be asked is “because it is/isn't Gods will/plan”. In order to be a good Christian one does not need to understand why God does anything as long as they believe that Jesus is their salvation and they do what he wants them to.

[renthead188]

Oscar

I walked in from work a moment after you posted this. You really have learned quite a bit, from your time here and from your own personal exploration. I haven't the time to respond to each point, I hope that someone else will be able to this evening. If not, I'll be sure to do so within the next few days.

I would like to encourage you to learn more about Jesus, both in your head and in your heart. What do you want to find out?

The Apostle Paul's letter to the Roman Church (Romans) is basically "Christian Doctrine 101" so if you're looking to grab onto some of that, take a read through the book of Romans, maybe even jotting down what God reveals to you throughout. I believe that you've read though the Gospels, and I ALWAYS suggest another read through. Everytime I read them The Lord shows me something new. I can't emphasize enough the importance of prayer. If you ask Him, He will reveal knowledge to your heart as well as your head.

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding." Proverbs 9:10


Keep searching in faith. He said that to anyone who knocks, the door will be opened.

love
Christopher

[faithmyeyes]

On the Obviousness of God
The existence of the God of the Christian bible is obvious to everyone. All contrary beliefs are obviously false and all contrary evidence is obviously contrived. A non-Christian person willfully chooses not to believe the obvious truth because they don’t want to be a Christian.I don't think so. I think there is a certain level of awareness required to start asking certain questions, which in itself leads to greater awareness, which eventually, with God's help, may get you to a point where His existence is "obvious" to you.

What the Bible says is that God has demonstrated His attributes in what He has created, but there are many, many people who go through their day-to-day activities completely oblivious to the Creation. There's a beautiful sunset to be seen, but their eyes are on the computer screen in a windowless room.

A non-Christian person may have explicitly chosen not to believe for whatever reason, but he may also be unaware, uninformed, or deceived.

On Christians
A Christian is a person who has become saved, and continues to abide by God’s will. A Christian will always be able know what God’s will is in relation to themselves.A Christian will always have the Word of God, which explains God's will in the ways that it applies to all Christians. That doesn't necessarily mean that a Christian will always know "God's will" for each and every decision he must make. I wrote this post (http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthread.php?p=1317495#post1317495) a year or so ago that pretty well sums up my feeling on God's will for Christians.

On Salvation
In order to be saved a person must acknowledge the truth of God’s existence; they must also acknowledge that Jesus is their savior. The person must acknowledge that they are a sinner and ask for forgiveness. Salvation is guaranteed to anyone that does this. All of these things may or may not be obvious to every human being. There is some confusion as to whether or not failure to abide by God’s will subsequent to the initial salvation custom being performed will earn a Christian damnation or if salvation is guaranteed regardless, but it is fairly clear that blasphemy will earn a Christian eternal damnation. Mostly, yes. I hesitate to say that salvation is acquired by a single moment of trust and belief, regardless of what follows. My feeling is that a saved person is one who has committed to an ongoing trust, belief, and obedience - day by day, moment by moment. A saved person may occasionally fall short of that commitment without endangering his salvation. Whether or not salvation can be lost entirely, I don't know. A friend of mine and I have discussed this at length. While neither of us are experts, we came to the following conclusion: It seems that if we can decide to stop trusting one another, we can also decide to stop trusting Christ. Therefore, one of two things are likely to be true - either God changes our hearts when we are saved in such a way that we will not choose to stop trusting Him; or, we can choose to stop trusting Him - but once that choice is made, there can be no re-reconciliation. The Bible seems fairly clear on that last point (that if it's possible to "lose" salvation, it can only be done once, after which a person is literally damned.)

On Blasphemy
A person that recognizes an act of God and tells other people or themselves instead that it was an act of Satan is a blasphemer. This may only apply to those persons who know that God and Satan exist. It could be argued though that everyone knows that God exists, making everyone eligible to blaspheme. There is that passage in the Bible that speaks of an unpardonable sin. Some define it as you have, others say that it's simply the sin of rejecting Christ, still others think it's something else or something that was only culturally relevant when the Bible was written. I don't think anyone really knows - although the consensus seems to be that it's not something that someone can do "accidentally" or in ignorance.

On Spiritual Understanding & the Holy Spirit
The idea is that the human being is corrupt, incapable of making good decisions for the good of themselves or others. The idea is that we are capable of making the decision to stop making decisions and let God make them for us. The part of a human being that is sensitive to God’s will is incorruptible; I imagine that this is the oft talked about Holy Spirit. When a person becomes a Christian the Holy Spirit becomes a part of them, and they become capable of recognizing the will of God all of the time without confusion, but may choose not to. A Christian may willfully ignore God’s will, this is always a conscious choice because God’s will is apparent to a holy spirit filled Christian in any given situation. Christians can know 100% of the time when they are wrong because they are privy to Gods infallible will. There are no mistakes for Christians, that is, Christians cannot make the wrong choice due confusion because God’s will can be consulted and interpreted correctly without fail. Well, yes, except I think Christians are still prone to confusion - as even after accepting Christ, we still have our fleshly desires and a deceptive Enemy (Satan) to contend with.


On God’s will
God’s will can be anything at a given time in a given situation, but whatever it appears to be at the moment a Christian perceives it, it is always the right and good thing. God’s will does not change and cannot be understood in its entirety. It can only be understood in relation to the individual Christian. God’s will does not have to be obeyed.God's will, mind, and purposes are higher than ours and cannot be entirely grasped, in the same way that we can talk about but not draw a five-dimensional figure. God's will as revealed in the Bible does not change. Whether a particular Christian has accurately perceived God's will or not when they claim to have done so is less easy to determine.

On Sin and Evil
All sin is evil and evil all evil is sin. They are both anything that is out of alignment the will of God. Christians are capable of recognizing evil and sin with complete accuracy because they are capable of knowing what God’s will is in a given situation. Anything, animate or inanimate is capable of sin and evil as long as it does not do what God wants it to do. I see that you've picked up a recurring theme of "Christians can perceive good/evil/God's will with complete accuracy." That's kind of like me saying, "Anyone can be great." It's true - in a sense - but the fact remains that all are not great, and our intuition tells us that we can't all be. The world just doesn't work that way. In the same sense - yes, Christians have access to perfect truth - but there are many reasons why we're unable to take advantage of that with perfect clarity in every situtaion.

On God
God is not everything, nor is he in everything. God is also not everywhere.
God is not everywhere, but He has universal awareness and influence.

On Satan
Satan’s only purpose is to bring things out of alignment with God’s will. People are perfectly capable of doing this on their own, but he is in an enabler. He also runs hell, and earth I think.Satan doesn't run hell. The final, eternal hell ("lake of fire") is empty right now, and won't be utilized until after the final judgment. Where unsaved people go when they die ("Sheol") is someplace else, but Satan doesn't run that either. He walks around on the earth, and even occasionally presents himself before God (as in the book of Job).

On Faith & Belief
When a Christian has faith in God he will do anything that they ask of him, as long as they don’t ask him for something that he doesn’t want to provide. The power of faith Is contingent on God’s will, no matter how much faith a Christian may have God will only do what he wants to do. Christians are always able to know what God doesn’t want them to want, and they don’t want to want things that God does not want them to want, but they still want them sometimes. Wanting those things is evil and sinful. That's pretty convoluted, but essentially true. Some people have gotten pretty far off in the weeds with that "power of faith" stuff. It's intertwined with spiritual maturity and knowledge of the mind of God through long-term study of His Word in a way that many would rather ignore, because it's hard and implies that you can't depend on God paying off your debts when you ask.

On Answers
God will always truthfully answer a believer’s question, but he won’t necessarily be specific. A suitable answer to any question that can be asked is “because it is/isn't Gods will/plan”. In order to be a good Christian one does not need to understand why God does anything as long as they believe that Jesus is their salvation and they do what he wants them to.Most of the questions that need answering are already answered in God's Word. What seems to be true is that if a Christian is long-term committed and working hard at obeying God's commands that are already laid out in black and white, he finds that the answers to his day-to-day questions come readily from his relationship with God. The "Christian" who mostly ignores God until he becomes frustrated with life and goes, "OK, God, you said you'd help, what do I do now?" probably finds God's will inscrutable and has to resort to cop-outs like "oh, guess it isn't God's will." Understanding God and His will is "easy" in the same way that playing Tchaikovsky is "easy" after you've been studying music for a few decades. It's a discipline and a journey.

in peace
faithmyeyes

[oscarkipling]

I don't think so. I think there is a certain level of awareness required to start asking certain questions, which in itself leads to greater awareness, which eventually, with God's help, may get you to a point where His existence is "obvious" to you.

What the Bible says is that God has demonstrated His attributes in what He has created, but there are many, many people who go through their day-to-day activities completely oblivious to the Creation. There's a beautiful sunset to be seen, but their eyes are on the computer screen in a windowless room.

A non-Christian person may have explicitly chosen not to believe for whatever reason, but he may also be unaware, uninformed, or deceived.


I knew that this would be a point of contention because I find it quite repulsive myself. If this is not true then there are many people throughout history who have had no opportunity for salvation. If a person does not make conscious decision to deny an obvious truth then why should they be punished? If a person can go through their entire lives without knowing that the God of Christianity is the truth then whose fault is it that they die a Buddhist or a muslim...or whatever?



A Christian will always have the Word of God, which explains God's will in the ways that it applies to all Christians. That doesn't necessarily mean that a Christian will always know "God's will" for each and every decision he must make. I wrote this post (http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthread.php?p=1317495#post1317495) a year or so ago that pretty well sums up my feeling on God's will for Christians.

Well, okay. Your post does not seem to conflict with mine. If God has no specific decision that he wants you to make at a given time then whatever you do is his will. If he does want you to do a specific thing then that imperative will be available to you to recognize and follow. Either way, whatever God’s will, the Christian can access the relevant instruction.

Mostly, yes. I hesitate to say that salvation is acquired by a single moment of trust and belief, regardless of what follows. My feeling is that a saved person is one who has committed to an ongoing trust, belief, and obedience - day by day, moment by moment. A saved person may occasionally fall short of that commitment without endangering his salvation. Whether or not salvation can be lost entirely, I don't know. A friend of mine and I have discussed this at length. While neither of us are experts, we came to the following conclusion: It seems that if we can decide to stop trusting one another, we can also decide to stop trusting Christ. Therefore, one of two things are likely to be true - either God changes our hearts when we are saved in such a way that we will not choose to stop trusting Him; or, we can choose to stop trusting Him - but once that choice is made, there can be no re-reconciliation. The Bible seems fairly clear on that last point (that if it's possible to "lose" salvation, it can only be done once, after which a person is literally damned.)

Yep, you’re not alone in your uncertainty.


There is that passage in the Bible that speaks of an unpardonable sin. Some define it as you have, others say that it's simply the sin of rejecting Christ, still others think it's something else or something that was only culturally relevant when the Bible was written. I don't think anyone really knows - although the consensus seems to be that it's not something that someone can do "accidentally" or in ignorance.

Hmm, this seems like something that every Christian should know.

Well, yes, except I think Christians are still prone to confusion - as even after accepting Christ, we still have our fleshly desires and a deceptive Enemy (Satan) to contend with.

If the will of God can be mistaken for something else, or you can’t always depend on being able to identify it, then what does trusting in god really mean? If you can’t trust that his “will” will always be something that you can recognize as certainly attributable to God then what are you trusting in? It seems that deception has to be self deception, choosing not to choose God’s will even though you recognize it, otherwise having faith is somewhat pointless because anything could pretend to be God and you’d never be able to tell. You would have to take it on its word or rely on yourself to determine if it sounds good or not…and we both know that humans are incapable of making good decisions without God. Sounds like a quagmire to me.



God's will, mind, and purposes are higher than ours and cannot be entirely grasped, in the same way that we can talk about but not draw a five-dimensional figure. God's will as revealed in the Bible does not change. Whether a particular Christian has accurately perceived God's will or not when they claim to have done so is less easy to determine.

In relation to the individual Christian observer God’s will should be distinct and recognizable in relation to the deceit and falsehoods. I agree that the entire will/plan cannot be known, but in relation to the Christian at a given point it should be knowable.


I see that you've picked up a recurring theme of "Christians can perceive good/evil/God's will with complete accuracy." That's kind of like me saying, "Anyone can be great." It's true - in a sense - but the fact remains that all are not great, and our intuition tells us that we can't all be. The world just doesn't work that way. In the same sense - yes, Christians have access to perfect truth - but there are many reasons why we're unable to take advantage of that with perfect clarity in every situtaion.

A Christian is always “able” to take advantage, but they may “choose” not to. If it is not a choice then how can there be blame? If you are not always “able” then why trust in God, you must be able to always rely on the fact that you can hear what God is saying and recognize it as God without fail. The theme reoccurs because it is essential to my understanding.

God is not everywhere, but He has universal awareness and influence.

Yes, I’ll add this…thank you

Satan doesn't run hell. The final, eternal hell ("lake of fire") is empty right now, and won't be utilized until after the final judgment. Where unsaved people go when they die ("Sheol") is someplace else, but Satan doesn't run that either. He walks around on the earth, and even occasionally presents himself before God (as in the book of Job).

Thanks, I didn’t even really mention heaven or hell or sheol because these are things I understand the least. I was going to leave the devil out, but I did add the little bit that I thought was correct..eh I’ve still got learnin’ to do. Thanks for the info , I’ll check out Job.

That's pretty convoluted, but essentially true. Some people have gotten pretty far off in the weeds with that "power of faith" stuff. It's intertwined with spiritual maturity and knowledge of the mind of God through long-term study of His Word in a way that many would rather ignore, because it's hard and implies that you can't depend on God paying off your debts when you ask.

“Paying off your debts” What does that mean? Well, this is just the way I understand it right now… with all that “want” stuff formatted for maximum humour.




Most of the questions that need answering are already answered in God's Word. What seems to be true is that if a Christian is long-term committed and working hard at obeying God's commands that are already laid out in black and white, he finds that the answers to his day-to-day questions come readily from his relationship with God. The "Christian" who mostly ignores God until he becomes frustrated with life and goes, "OK, God, you said you'd help, what do I do now?" probably finds God's will inscrutable and has to resort to cop-outs like "oh, guess it isn't God's will." Understanding God and His will is "easy" in the same way that playing Tchaikovsky is "easy" after you've been studying music for a few decades. It's a discipline and a journey.

Okay,I think I see what you are saying, I’ll refine this point, thanks



….also Tchaikovsky?!??!? Surely Bach would have been a better analogy or Rachmaninoff…but Tchaikovsky pfttt, kids these days.

I’m kidding he’s okay, so do you play?

Also,…. even Debussy !!!but Friggin Tchaikovsky?!?!

Thank you very much for your post.

[Tanya~]

On the Obviousness of God
The existence of the God of the Christian bible is obvious to everyone. All contrary beliefs are obviously false and all contrary evidence is obviously contrived. A non-Christian person willfully chooses not to believe the obvious truth because they don’t want to be a Christian.

I'm not so sure that God is all that obvious. God can be known (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%201:18-23;&version=50;) on a fundamental level through the things that are made, but if God were obvious, it would not have been necessary for Him to reveal Himself to people. If God is not obvious to you, then He has not been revealed (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%2011:27;&version=50;) to you.


On Christians
A Christian is a person who has become saved, and continues to abide by God’s will. A Christian will always be able know what God’s will is in relation to themselves.a. A Christian is a person who believes the gospel (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor%2015:1-4;&version=50;), has repented of sin and has received (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%202:37-41;&version=50;) Jesus Christ.

b. A Christian knows God's will as it has been revealed in the Scriptures (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20tim%203:16-17;&version=50;). What has been written applies to all of us.

On Salvation
In order to be saved a person must acknowledge the truth of God’s existence; they must also acknowledge that Jesus is their savior. The person must acknowledge that they are a sinner and ask for forgiveness. Salvation is guaranteed to anyone that does this. All of these things may or may not be obvious to every human being. There is some confusion as to whether or not failure to abide by God’s will subsequent to the initial salvation custom being performed will earn a Christian damnation or if salvation is guaranteed regardless, but it is fairly clear that blasphemy will earn a Christian eternal damnation. Salvation is based on faith -- those who believe in the Son (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203:16-21;&version=50;) of God are saved, those who do not believe are lost.

On Blasphemy
A person that recognizes an act of God and tells other people or themselves instead that it was an act of Satan is a blasphemer. This may only apply to those persons who know that God and Satan exist. It could be argued though that everyone knows that God exists, making everyone eligible to blaspheme. Blasphemy is speaking evil of God. The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%2012:22-32;&version=50;) is saying that Jesus had a demon (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%203:28-30;&version=50;) and cast out demons by the power of Satan. It is essentially saying that the Holy Spirit is an unclean or evil spirit.

On Spiritual Understanding & the Holy SpiritMan has sinned (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%203:23;&version=50;)and fallen short of God's glory, but even in this state he does know (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2011:11-13;&version=50;) how to do good. We are not to stop making decisions and let God make them for us; rather, we are to choose to follow His ways, because we have received the Holy Spirit and God is in us to guide us. We take the action, we make the decision to follow Him (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%208:5;%20gal%205:16%20;%20Php%202:12-13;&version=50;).

When a person becomes a Christian the Holy Spirit becomes a part of them, and they become capable of recognizing the will of God all of the time without confusion, but may choose not to.The Christian walk is a growth process. Prayer (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=col%201:9-10;&version=50;) along with the teaching of His word are important so that the believer can grow in the knowledge of God and in the knowledge of His will.

A Christian may willfully ignore God’s will, this is always a conscious choice because God’s will is apparent to a holy spirit filled Christian in any given situation.Even non-Christians know right from wrong. When we do wrong, we sin.

Christians can know 100% of the time when they are wrong because they are privy to Gods infallible will. There are no mistakes for Christians, that is, Christians cannot make the wrong choice due confusion because God’s will can be consulted and interpreted correctly without fail. Christians make mistakes and err all the time just like other people. We don't have perfect understanding of God and of His will. This is why we need to pray for understanding and learn His word, and practice what we learn. When we practice what we know, we do well. There is always more to learn and more to understand.


On God’s will
God’s will can be anything at a given time in a given situation, but whatever it appears to be at the moment a Christian perceives it, it is always the right and good thing. God’s will does not change and cannot be understood in its entirety. It can only be understood in relation to the individual Christian. God’s will does not have to be obeyed.I perceive that as you progress with this exercise, the sarcasm level increases, which tells us that the hostility and anger increases. Why is that? God's will is revealed by the Holy Spirit and through His word which was inspired by the Holy Spirit. The problem is that we as humans tend to be dense, and we have the battle between our sinful nature and the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. A Christian grows (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%203:17-18;&version=50;) in grace and in the knowledge of God over time.

On Sin and Evil
All sin is evil and evil all evil is sin. They are both anything that is out of alignment the will of God. Christians are capable of recognizing evil and sin with complete accuracy because they are capable of knowing what God’s will is in a given situation. Anything, animate or inanimate is capable of sin and evil as long as it does not do what God wants it to do. :rolleyes: Inanimate objects do not sin, nor do animals. People sin by disobeying God. Sin is disobeying God's law (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20john%203:4;&version=50;), and it is failing to do what you know (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%204:17;&version=50;) is good. The word sin simply means "to miss the mark." The word "evil" has different connotations and doesn't always apply in a personal or moral sense. For example, you can speak of "the evil day" which is the day that bad things happen, even though the day itself or the things that happen aren't morally evil. In Scripture evil can mean "calamity." Iniquity is when people turn against God with impunity, when people raise the fist to God and defy Him. Wickedness is sin of a particularly heinous nature. An evil person actively seeks the harm of others, or actively pursues those things in defiance of God.



On God
God is not everything, nor is he in everything. God is also not everywhere. The first two are correct, the last one is not correct. God is everywhere (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psa%20139:7-12;&version=50;) and there is no escape from Him.

On Satan
Satan’s only purpose is to bring things out of alignment with God’s will. People are perfectly capable of doing this on their own, but he is in an enabler. He also runs hell, and earth I think.Satan does not run hell and he doesn't have headquarters in hell, and he doesn't torture people in hell. That's a myth. He is the ruler of this world (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2012:31;%20Eph%202:1-3;%20Col%201:13-14;&version=50;) system though, and he is also the tempter (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%204:1-3;&version=50;)and the accuser (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2012:10-12;&version=50;).

On Faith & Belief
When a Christian has faith in God he will do anything that they ask of him, as long as they don’t ask him for something that he doesn’t want to provide. The power of faith Is contingent on God’s will, no matter how much faith a Christian may have God will only do what he wants to do. The promises of God are conditional, including the promise of answered prayer. Asking according to God's will (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20john%205:14;&version=50;) is one, faith (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2021:21-22;&version=31;) is another, obedience (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2015:7-8;&version=50;)is another.

Christians are always able to know what God doesn’t want them to want, and they don’t want to want things that God does not want them to want, but they still want them sometimes. Wanting those things is evil and sinful. a. not true; b&c. maybe sometimes true, d. Not necessarily. Sometimes we can desire good things that are not wrong to want, but it is not God's will for us to have them. A Biblical example is David wanting to build (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%208:18-19;&version=50;) the temple for the Lord.

On Answers
God will always truthfully answer a believer’s question, but he won’t necessarily be specific. A suitable answer to any question that can be asked is “because it is/isn't Gods will/plan”. In order to be a good Christian one does not need to understand why God does anything as long as they believe that Jesus is their salvation and they do what he wants them to.


God does not always answer our questions. We are not His equals, and we don't have all the information. When we put our trust in Him, He proves Himself to be faithful even though we don't always understand.

Mic 6:8
He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the LORD require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?
NKJV

[faithmyeyes]

If a person can go through their entire lives without knowing that the God of Christianity is the truth then whose fault is it that they die a Buddhist or a muslim...or whatever?
This is a hard question; in fact, one of the hardest. There seem to be two commonly-encountered answers to this question:

1. God is under no obligation to provide anyone an opportunity to be saved, because it would be "fair" just to send everyone to hell since we've all sinned. If you're one of the lucky ones He picked, good for you.

2. Romans 1:20 - the same verse that talks about God being "obvious" because of His creation - states that "men are without excuse." So, even though we may not know exactly how He does it, He provides everyone some kind of opportunity - which may or may not include knowing specifics about Jesus.

I tend to lean toward option 2.

If you really enjoy these types of hard questions, check out the Reclaiming the Mind blog at http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/. There's an archive there with lots of good discussion on just about any hard question you could come up with. Note that I said discussion - not absolute answers. Hard questions are called so for a reason. :)

Regarding the will of God: There are many commands in the Bible that tell a Christian what God's will is for his life every day. Love God. Love your neighbor. Do justly. Love mercy. Be humble. Make peace. Teach others. A lot of Christians gloss over this stuff and get frustrated that when they're thinking, "Should I do X or Y?" God doesn't open heaven and drop a scroll that says, "Thou shalt do X." I was once told by an elderly believer, "When you do the will of God as you know it, you will know the will of God as you do it." What he meant was, essentially: obey the stuff that's already written in the Bible. Doing that will change you into a person who encounters fewer dilemmas about the day-to-day stuff, and who finds the answers easier to come by when you do get stuck. It's an iterative, refining process that nobody actually "gets done with" this side of heaven.

(regarding the Unpardonable Sin) Hmm, this seems like something that every Christian should know. Yeah, but we don't. :) Again, though, if a Christian is obeying what's in the Bible, it seems safe to presume that he'll be behaving in such a way that the likelihood of his accidentally blaspheming the Holy Spirit becomes infinitely small.

If the will of God can be mistaken for something else, or you can’t always depend on being able to identify it, then what does trusting in god really mean? If you can’t trust that his “will” will always be something that you can recognize as certainly attributable to God then what are you trusting in?Christians trust in the words of God, the promises of God, and the character of God as revealed in His Word (the Bible). That much of God's will is unmistakable, and is the basis for the entire Christian faith. However, what "God's will" is for a high school graduate trying to decide whether to go to college or join the military may not be so obvious, or universal.

anything could pretend to be God and you’d never be able to tell. You would have to take it on its word or rely on yourself to determine if it sounds good or notAgain, we always have the standards found in the Bible (which we regard as absolute Truth) to help with the big questions. I John 4:1-3 says,

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God."

Seems pretty clear... except for the word "spirit." I've found it helpful to replace "spirit" with "teaching" for ease of understanding. Behind every teaching there is a teacher, and behind every teacher there is a spirit.

Now, that verse was obviously aimed at discerning which teachings about God are true and which are false. In the area of life decisions (as with our high school graduate) any decision to do either X or Y may interact with the will of God in one of four ways:

1. God wants you to do X, and not Y.
2. God wants you to do Y, and not X.
3. God wants you to do neither X nor Y.
4. God doesn't care whether you do X or Y.

The only sensible way I've found to approach such a decision is to consider the things that I already know God wants me to be doing, and try to choose the path that will help me do that stuff better. That will usually direct me to one of the four conclusions. If I wind up feeling like (4) is the case, then I do what I think I'll enjoy most.

“Paying off your debts” What does that mean? Well, this is just the way I understand it right now… with all that “want” stuff formatted for maximum humour.Literally, paying off your debts. As in, it's likely that a great deal of "faith" won't convince God to drop a check in the mail to erase the consequences of your foolishness with your Visa.

….also Tchaikovsky?!??!? Surely Bach would have been a better analogy or Rachmaninoff…but Tchaikovsky pfttt, kids these days.

I’m kidding he’s okay, so do you play?
Yes, although not Tchaikovsky. Debussy, sometimes... but not much time to learn the great composers anymore. 3 kids here, and another on the way. :)

in peace,
faithmyeyes

[chisel]

Hi there Oscar,

Please don't take this the wrong way and please don't take what I'm about to say as pride or religious snobbery or something like that. My honest feeling is that your post contains many good observations, but there's something missing. You're trying to figure Christianity out and I don't believe one can do such a thing.
It took me a while to think of an analogy that I could give you to explain it and what I have is a pretty poor analogy, but I hope it'll give you some kind of idea.

I used to play a bit of guitar at some point and I taught a few people how to play, and something I used to tell people is to play the song and not the notes. It's quite amazing actually because somebody can play all the right notes in the right order and the right timing, but it simply isn't music.
You have to have the song in your heart, and then when it's in your heart, somehow that song becomes alive, and your fingers move according to it's essence.

Jesus Christ said to Nicodemus, who incidentally was a teacher of scripture, but knew not God: Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

I take that statement to mean take being born again is something you cannot figure out. There isn't a code that you crack, a magic phrase, a secret potion or a work that one can do to be saved. It is like the wind, you don't know where it starts you just believe in God and when you look back on your life you see God gently leading you.

Does that make any sense? It is obvious that you're a scholarly person, and you might take what I'm saying as a request to switch off your mind and to believe with blind faith, right? That would be a waste of time. No person can force themselves to believe something they do not posses in their very core. You can't believe what you don't believe, just like you can't play music by playing notes.

I wonder if that isn't what you're struggling with. "Surely", you must be thinking, "all these Christians can't be crazy...but I just don't get it...I just don't get what they're on about"

Jesus has often used the passing from death to life to indicate salvation and the Bible is very clear that a believing heart is given by God Himself. All of Jesus' miracles pointed to salvation and the miracle of Lazarus' resurrection demonstrates the point that I'm trying to make.

Notice how Jesus called the dead man to come out?
Joh 11:43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out."

Dead people cannot hear, so before Lazarus was able to hear the call of Christ he was already raised from death unto life. It is like that being born again. Once you're alive you don't need to reason until Christ becomes real. You don't need to decode or find Him. He is more real than anything else to you. You owe your very life to Him.

If you want to believe, then seek with all your might and beg Him to do a work of salvation in your heart.

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
(Eze 36:26-27)

Notice in the above passages Who it is that gives a new heart, and only after that one starts to obey God's rules. That is the essence of the gospel. It isn't about doing a bunch of things and then you're a good Christian. God actually changes you.

There are plenty of testimonies of changed hearts and that is the proof of salvation. Peter the disciple denied Christ 3 times to save his own skin, then suddenly God pours His Holy Spirit on him and he changes. He preached the Gospel to his death.
The apostle Paul was a rabid persecutor and suddenly he preached the gospel and paid with his life.

If one looks at the conversion of St Augustine is shows a changed heart
http://www.midwestaugustinians.org/saints/s_augconversion.html

The Gospel of Jesus Christ has power, and it changes hearts. It isn't an intellectual thing or even a feeling of the heart or a case of romanticism. It is the power of God.

And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
(1Co 2:3-5)

I hope and pray that what I've written will magnify God's Name and I hope that you're not offended but perhaps rather encouragement. Salvation isn't up to us humans to achieve but it is a gift of God.

God bless

V.

[oscarkipling]

I'm not so sure that God is all that obvious. God can be known (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%201:18-23;&version=50;) on a fundamental level through the things that are made, but if God were obvious, it would not have been necessary for Him to reveal Himself to people. If God is not obvious to you, then He has not been revealed (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%2011:27;&version=50;) to you.


hmm, I expressed my feeling about this in my reply to faithmyeyes


a. A Christian is a person who believes the gospel (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor%2015:1-4;&version=50;), has repented of sin and has received (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%202:37-41;&version=50;) Jesus Christ.

b. A Christian knows God's will as it has been revealed in the Scriptures (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20tim%203:16-17;&version=50;). What has been written applies to all of us.


okay, i'll refine that point, thanks, although i think i address at least some of it in salvation.


Salvation is based on faith -- those who believe in the Son (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203:16-21;&version=50;) of God are saved, those who do not believe are lost.


okay, i'll include this


Blasphemy is speaking evil of God. The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%2012:22-32;&version=50;) is saying that Jesus had a demon (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%203:28-30;&version=50;) and cast out demons by the power of Satan. It is essentially saying that the Holy Spirit is an unclean or evil spirit.


I honestly did read you blog about this, and I really thought that i had it pegged. I guess that it does not have to be specifically the power of satan, but any evil? saying basically that God is evil when you know he is not?


Man has sinned (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%203:23;&version=50;)and fallen short of God's glory, but even in this state he does know (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2011:11-13;&version=50;) how to do good. We are not to stop making decisions and let God make them for us; rather, we are to choose to follow His ways, because we have received the Holy Spirit and God is in us to guide us. We take the action, we make the decision to follow Him (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%208:5;%20gal%205:16%20;%20Php%202:12-13;&version=50;).


well, I guess i did miss some nuance here about the mechanics of the decision making process, i'll refine that...also could you check out my response on this point to faithmyeyes.


The Christian walk is a growth process. Prayer (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=col%201:9-10;&version=50;) along with the teaching of His word are important so that the believer can grow in the knowledge of God and in the knowledge of His will.

yes, please read the aforementioned post, and then maybe we can see what needs fine tuning


Even non-Christians know right from wrong. When we do wrong, we sin.


right and wrong arent the same as good and evil are they? I prefer to use sin vs good because those seem to be the biblical venacular. If a Christian doesnt always know what God wants them to do then how does a non-believer always know? This does not seem to jibe with my understanding, If everyone knows right from wrong and can discern this with 100% accuracy, what does the holy spirit do? What does the guidance amount to?


Christians make mistakes and err all the time just like other people. We don't have perfect understanding of God and of His will. This is why we need to pray for understanding and learn His word, and practice what we learn. When we practice what we know, we do well. There is always more to learn and more to understand.


again this i dont understand. I understand that christian err, but its not because they didnt know what they were supposed to do, it was because they simply chose not to do what was right...idk...this is not how I undersood it.


I perceive that as you progress with this exercise, the sarcasm level increases, which tells us that the hostility and anger increases. Why is that? God's will is revealed by the Holy Spirit and through His word which was inspired by the Holy Spirit. The problem is that we as humans tend to be dense, and we have the battle between our sinful nature and the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. A Christian grows (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%203:17-18;&version=50;) in grace and in the knowledge of God over time.


I think you may have a pretty low opinion of me, but i'll think and refine my post to include the points you have made here


:rolleyes: Inanimate objects do not sin, nor do animals. People sin by disobeying God. Sin is disobeying God's law (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20john%203:4;&version=50;), and it is failing to do what you know (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%204:17;&version=50;) is good. The word sin simply means "to miss the mark." The word "evil" has different connotations and doesn't always apply in a personal or moral sense. For example, you can speak of "the evil day" which is the day that bad things happen, even though the day itself or the things that happen aren't morally evil. In Scripture evil can mean "calamity." Iniquity is when people turn against God with impunity, when people raise the fist to God and defy Him. Wickedness is sin of a particularly heinous nature. An evil person actively seeks the harm of others, or actively pursues those things in defiance of God.


hmm, can a thing without a mind do something that God doesnt want it to do?


The first two are correct, the last one is not correct. God is everywhere (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psa%20139:7-12;&version=50;) and there is no escape from Him.


hmm, God can be everywhere and still manage not to be in everything. He can both be in a person and not in them. very quantum. well okay, if thats the way it is, then thats the way it is.


Satan does not run hell and he doesn't have headquarters in hell, and he doesn't torture people in hell. That's a myth. He is the ruler of this world (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2012:31;%20Eph%202:1-3;%20Col%201:13-14;&version=50;) system though, and he is also the tempter (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%204:1-3;&version=50;)and the accuser (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2012:10-12;&version=50;).


alright thanks, I guess I just always assumed that he ran hell, but I understand now.


The promises of God are conditional, including the promise of answered prayer. Asking according to God's will (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20john%205:14;&version=50;) is one, faith (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2021:21-22;&version=31;) is another, obedience (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2015:7-8;&version=50;)is another.


okay, i'll refine.


a. not true; b&c. maybe sometimes true, d. Not necessarily. Sometimes we can desire good things that are not wrong to want, but it is not God's will for us to have them. A Biblical example is David wanting to build (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%208:18-19;&version=50;) the temple for the Lord.


on a. i will have to disagree with you, you can check out the faithmyeyes reply for why's and whatnots...on david point, thanks i didnt know that.


God does not always answer our questions. We are not His equals, and we don't have all the information. When we put our trust in Him, He proves Himself to be faithful even though we don't always understand.


I may have screwed this up, but i dont think so, let me get back to you on this one.

[Tanya~]

Sorry Oscar it's getting a bit complicated trying to go back to yours and faith's and mine. I don't have as much time at the moment to go and sort all that out.

My purpose in responding to your post was to offer some Scriptural replies to your points. I hope some of it was helpful to you. :)

[Saved7]

Wow...Oscar, I have to say what you wrote here sounds more like a some sort of contract that a business makes a person sign and agree to before entering into their employment.:P:lol:

[oscarkipling]

Wow...Oscar, I have to say what you wrote here sounds more like a some sort of contract that a business makes a person sign and agree to before entering into their employment.:P:lol:


lol, yeah, but if you think about it that's a pretty neat analogy, Jesus is in the salvation business, and you must enter into a contract with him.

[oscarkipling]

This is a hard question; in fact, one of the hardest. There seem to be two commonly-encountered answers to this question:

1. God is under no obligation to provide anyone an opportunity to be saved, because it would be "fair" just to send everyone to hell since we've all sinned. If you're one of the lucky ones He picked, good for you.

2. Romans 1:20 - the same verse that talks about God being "obvious" because of His creation - states that "men are without excuse." So, even though we may not know exactly how He does it, He provides everyone some kind of opportunity - which may or may not include knowing specifics about Jesus.

I tend to lean toward option 2.

If you really enjoy these types of hard questions, check out the Reclaiming the Mind blog at http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/. There's an archive there with lots of good discussion on just about any hard question you could come up with. Note that I said discussion - not absolute answers. Hard questions are called so for a reason. :)


haha well, its not that i just love to pour over difficult questions all day....wait, yeah, I guess I do. Anyway, I guess I just expect answers from religion, more than I would expect from anything else. anyway, I guess i'll check out the site, thanks


Regarding the will of God: There are many commands in the Bible that tell a Christian what God's will is for his life every day. Love God. Love your neighbor. Do justly. Love mercy. Be humble. Make peace. Teach others. A lot of Christians gloss over this stuff and get frustrated that when they're thinking, "Should I do X or Y?" God doesn't open heaven and drop a scroll that says, "Thou shalt do X." I was once told by an elderly believer, "When you do the will of God as you know it, you will know the will of God as you do it." What he meant was, essentially: obey the stuff that's already written in the Bible. Doing that will change you into a person who encounters fewer dilemmas about the day-to-day stuff, and who finds the answers easier to come by when you do get stuck. It's an iterative, refining process that nobody actually "gets done with" this side of heaven.


well, okay, if this all ends in a christian always being able to know what God wants them to do, then I totally agree. If this means that a christian must take a guess because they cant be sure then that is something that i cannot fit in...the former is a matter of how you receive and perceive the available information, and the other is a matter of not having the information.but you've done your part, and thank you for it.

also that little aphorism is really cool, it reminds me of that dude Cpt. conundrum from mystery men:

He who questions training only trains himself at asking questions.

To learn my teachings, I must first teach you how to learn.

When you care what is outside, what is inside cares for you.

until you learn to master your rage, your rage will master you.

idk


Yeah, but we don't. :) Again, though, if a Christian is obeying what's in the Bible, it seems safe to presume that he'll be behaving in such a way that the likelihood of his accidentally blaspheming the Holy Spirit becomes infinitely small.

you've got a point there


Christians trust in the words of God, the promises of God, and the character of God as revealed in His Word (the Bible). That much of God's will is unmistakable, and is the basis for the entire Christian faith. However, what "God's will" is for a high school graduate trying to decide whether to go to college or join the military may not be so obvious, or universal.
Again, we always have the standards found in the Bible (which we regard as absolute Truth) to help with the big questions. I John 4:1-3 says,


"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God."

Seems pretty clear... except for the word "spirit." I've found it helpful to replace "spirit" with "teaching" for ease of understanding. Behind every teaching there is a teacher, and behind every teacher there is a spirit.

Now, that verse was obviously aimed at discerning which teachings about God are true and which are false. In the area of life decisions (as with our high school graduate) any decision to do either X or Y may interact with the will of God in one of four ways:

1. God wants you to do X, and not Y.
2. God wants you to do Y, and not X.
3. God wants you to do neither X nor Y.
4. God doesn't care whether you do X or Y.

The only sensible way I've found to approach such a decision is to consider the things that I already know God wants me to be doing, and try to choose the path that will help me do that stuff better. That will usually direct me to one of the four conclusions. If I wind up feeling like (4) is the case, then I do what I think I'll enjoy most.


hmm, this doesnt sound right to me. Again if you always have enough information to obey God then that works. Believeing in the validity of the words in the bible and following the instructions is one thing, i think anyone can do that as well as any christian. If a christian doesnt get more out of it than a nomal person, then I dont see what the difference is...other than confidence...which I guess is no small thing....the thing is it seems like all but the most obvious implicit commandments are definative (and not those all the time),everything else seems to be up for interpretation...I'm just not seeing the added value in this scenerio.


Literally, paying off your debts. As in, it's likely that a great deal of "faith" won't convince God to drop a check in the mail to erase the consequences of your foolishness with your Visa.


oh okay yeah, this makes sense. I agree


Yes, although not Tchaikovsky. Debussy, sometimes... but not much time to learn the great composers anymore. 3 kids here, and another on the way. :)

in peace,
faithmyeyes

well, congradulations, babies are wonderful little people. They are lucky too to have a musical parent, they say that playing classical music can help children to develop skills critical in math, and general thinking...so thats cool....my dad played Os Mutantes when I was a swaddling babe, i'm still not sure what kind of skills that helped me develop :lol:

[oscarkipling]

Hi there Oscar,

Please don't take this the wrong way and please don't take what I'm about to say as pride or religious snobbery or something like that. My honest feeling is that your post contains many good observations, but there's something missing. You're trying to figure Christianity out and I don't believe one can do such a thing.
It took me a while to think of an analogy that I could give you to explain it and what I have is a pretty poor analogy, but I hope it'll give you some kind of idea.

I used to play a bit of guitar at some point and I taught a few people how to play, and something I used to tell people is to play the song and not the notes. It's quite amazing actually because somebody can play all the right notes in the right order and the right timing, but it simply isn't music.
You have to have the song in your heart, and then when it's in your heart, somehow that song becomes alive, and your fingers move according to it's essence.

Jesus Christ said to Nicodemus, who incidentally was a teacher of scripture, but knew not God: Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

I take that statement to mean take being born again is something you cannot figure out. There isn't a code that you crack, a magic phrase, a secret potion or a work that one can do to be saved. It is like the wind, you don't know where it starts you just believe in God and when you look back on your life you see God gently leading you.

Does that make any sense? It is obvious that you're a scholarly person, and you might take what I'm saying as a request to switch off your mind and to believe with blind faith, right? That would be a waste of time. No person can force themselves to believe something they do not posses in their very core. You can't believe what you don't believe, just like you can't play music by playing notes.

I wonder if that isn't what you're struggling with. "Surely", you must be thinking, "all these Christians can't be crazy...but I just don't get it...I just don't get what they're on about"

Jesus has often used the passing from death to life to indicate salvation and the Bible is very clear that a believing heart is given by God Himself. All of Jesus' miracles pointed to salvation and the miracle of Lazarus' resurrection demonstrates the point that I'm trying to make.

Notice how Jesus called the dead man to come out?
Joh 11:43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out."

Dead people cannot hear, so before Lazarus was able to hear the call of Christ he was already raised from death unto life. It is like that being born again. Once you're alive you don't need to reason until Christ becomes real. You don't need to decode or find Him. He is more real than anything else to you. You owe your very life to Him.

If you want to believe, then seek with all your might and beg Him to do a work of salvation in your heart.

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
(Eze 36:26-27)

Notice in the above passages Who it is that gives a new heart, and only after that one starts to obey God's rules. That is the essence of the gospel. It isn't about doing a bunch of things and then you're a good Christian. God actually changes you.

There are plenty of testimonies of changed hearts and that is the proof of salvation. Peter the disciple denied Christ 3 times to save his own skin, then suddenly God pours His Holy Spirit on him and he changes. He preached the Gospel to his death.
The apostle Paul was a rabid persecutor and suddenly he preached the gospel and paid with his life.

If one looks at the conversion of St Augustine is shows a changed heart
http://www.midwestaugustinians.org/saints/s_augconversion.html

The Gospel of Jesus Christ has power, and it changes hearts. It isn't an intellectual thing or even a feeling of the heart or a case of romanticism. It is the power of God.

And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
(1Co 2:3-5)

I hope and pray that what I've written will magnify God's Name and I hope that you're not offended but perhaps rather encouragement. Salvation isn't up to us humans to achieve but it is a gift of God.

God bless

V.


I don't take any offense, you're just trying to help. Sure, I can agree with you and say that if God exists and the bible is true and the interpretations of at least some Christians here are true then there are things about Christianity that I cannot understand, but there still must be things that can be understood even as a non-believer. I am not convinced that all the mysteries people here have described to me are things that cannot be known to the unbeliever. Based on what I’ve learned here, I find many of these mysteries fairly obvious once you apply certain general rules, the real mysteries seem to remain so, even to the Christians here. I like the music analogy, the difference between Milstein and Heifetz playing Bach’s chaconne isn’t in the notes played it’s in the interpretation…the notes are the same…I’m looking for the notes and time signatures in this situation I guess…and I’m cool with that, because I believe there are notes and time signatures.



thank you

[chisel]

I don't take any offense, you're just trying to help. Sure, I can agree with you and say that if God exists and the bible is true and the interpretations of at least some Christians here are true then there are things about Christianity that I cannot understand, but there still must be things that can be understood even as a non-believer. I am not convinced that all the mysteries people here have described to me are things that cannot be known to the unbeliever. Based on what I’ve learned here, I find many of these mysteries fairly obvious once you apply certain general rules, the real mysteries seem to remain so, even to the Christians here. I like the music analogy, the difference between Milstein and Heifetz playing Bach’s chaconne isn’t in the notes played it’s in the interpretation…the notes are the same…I’m looking for the notes and time signatures in this situation I guess…and I’m cool with that, because I believe there are notes and time signatures.



thank you

What will the notes and time signatures mean, to a person who cannot hear? It is little golf-club looking sticks, and dots on lines on paper. What would the point of searching for that be? Would it not be better for such a person to seek the ability to hear first and then you can enjoy music, not just on paper.

...The problem we Christians face on a daily basis is how to let people know they cannot hear without offending them :)

As Jesus said:
"the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them. And blessed is the one who is not offended by Me."
(Mat 11:5-6)

[oscarkipling]

What will the notes and time signatures mean, to a person who cannot hear? It is little golf-club looking sticks, and dots on lines on paper. What would the point of searching for that be? Would it not be better for such a person to seek the ability to hear first and then you can enjoy music, not just on paper.

...The problem we Christians face on a daily basis is how to let people know they cannot hear without offending them :)

As Jesus said:
"the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them. And blessed is the one who is not offended by Me."
(Mat 11:5-6)

well, okay. Maybe I'm deaf, what do you suggest I do?

[chisel]

well, okay. Maybe I'm deaf, what do you suggest I do?

The sick and the blind and the deaf people in the Bible went to Jesus and they received healing. What does a deaf person do, who thinks their ears are fine? They probably find it rather silly being sent to an ear specialist...

The Gospel is generally called "Good news", but it's only really good news to the people mentioned. The deaf, the blind, the sick, the poor and the dead.

I once heard a preacher use an analogy: he'd take a bunch of keys from his pocket, and jingle them in his hand and ask the congregation, "What does this sound mean to you?"
The congregation obviously confused and not knowing what to answer would simply keep silent, after all, what possibly could the jingling of keys mean, right?

then he'd say, "Supposed you were locked in a dungeon for six years....what would the jingling of keys mean then?"

To a prisoner, the sound of keys is probably the most beautiful sound in the world. But to an average person, it doesn't really mean a thing.

That is the Good News... the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the fact that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our transgression so that we may have eternal life and so that we may need not go to hell. You've heard all this before, isn't it? And it doesn't really hit you, it isn't really a sweet sound to you, not so?

To somebody on death row, hearing that they've been pardoned because some other person offered to sit in the electric chair in their place...to that person, such news is the most beautiful sound in the world.

But you're some guy typing on a forum and you keep hearing that Christ died for your sins, and you don't think you've really done anything wrong, right? So in essence, what you're missing, is not some intellectual understanding of Christianity, but an understanding of human kind, and even deeper than that, and understanding of your own heart, from a godly point of view...

There are basically two possibilities.
a) You truly have no need for salvation because you haven't actually committed any wrong(sin)...ever.
b) You are guilty or doing wrong, but you fail to see yourself as guilty, which is in itself part of human nature.

So the real question here is, are you good? And if you say "yes", by what standard are you good. If you say "no", then does it bother you?

[oscarkipling]

The sick and the blind and the deaf people in the Bible went to Jesus and they received healing. What does a deaf person do, who thinks their ears are fine? They probably find it rather silly being sent to an ear specialist...

The Gospel is generally called "Good news", but it's only really good news to the people mentioned. The deaf, the blind, the sick, the poor and the dead.

I once heard a preacher use an analogy: he'd take a bunch of keys from his pocket, and jingle them in his hand and ask the congregation, "What does this sound mean to you?"
The congregation obviously confused and not knowing what to answer would simply keep silent, after all, what possibly could the jingling of keys mean, right?

then he'd say, "Supposed you were locked in a dungeon for six years....what would the jingling of keys mean then?"

To a prisoner, the sound of keys is probably the most beautiful sound in the world. But to an average person, it doesn't really mean a thing.

That is the Good News... the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the fact that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our transgression so that we may have eternal life and so that we may need not go to hell. You've heard all this before, isn't it? And it doesn't really hit you, it isn't really a sweet sound to you, not so?

To somebody on death row, hearing that they've been pardoned because some other person offered to sit in the electric chair in their place...to that person, such news is the most beautiful sound in the world.

But you're some guy typing on a forum and you keep hearing that Christ died for your sins, and you don't think you've really done anything wrong, right? So in essence, what you're missing, is not some intellectual understanding of Christianity, but an understanding of human kind, and even deeper than that, and understanding of your own heart, from a godly point of view...

There are basically two possibilities.
a) You truly have no need for salvation because you haven't actually committed any wrong(sin)...ever.
b) You are guilty or doing wrong, but you fail to see yourself as guilty, which is in itself part of human nature.

So the real question here is, are you good? And if you say "yes", by what standard are you good. If you say "no", then does it bother you?


okay, I feel that I am basically a neutral force in the world, background noise for the most part. A most ordinary fellow. I don't believe that people "are" good or evil, there must be some sort of value system to measure such things, a judge, an observer. Christians would tell me that the God has set the values; he is the judge and constant observer. Someone with other ideas might tell me that values stem from biological imperatives and complex social interactions throughout history. I believe that minds create intention, and meaning; they define what is good and what is evil, i don't think that these things can be objective; I don't think that you think so either because God has a mind. I do things that I consider to be good, and I do things that I consider to be bad (evil/sinful is something that I don't find the need to use during internal dialogues). The good things are often useful and bad things are often damaging by my measurements. For the most part the consequences of what I do seem benign, as far as I can tell. I spend a great deal of my life performing basic bodily functions, which I usually categorize as neutral, although I imagine if they didn't occur I would have to be dead, or malfunctioning, which I consider a bad thing. So does it bother me that I don't always do what I feel is good or right or smart or useful or pleasant? Yes, it does, and if there is anyone in the world who I'd like to do right by then it is myself. I have to live with myself, my mistakes, my regrets, so I try to be true, honest and helpful to myself, I try to make my time pleasant, and do the things that I enjoy and the things that I feel that I must do. As far as I can tell much of this is up to me.


I just realized that I said I don't use "evil" or "sinful" in my internal dialogue, I thought i'd address that before it turns into a talking point. I dont use those words with myself because they dont seem relavent, Things that I am ashamed of or dissappointed with about myself do exists, but I do not define them as sin or evil, because they are religious terminology, and do not express my how I actually feel...I think

okay, your turn :hug:

[chisel]

okay, I feel that I am basically a neutral force in the world, background noise for the most part. A most ordinary fellow. I don't believe that people "are" good or evil, there must be some sort of value system to measure such things, a judge, an observer. Christians would tell me that the God has set the values; he is the judge and constant observer. Someone with other ideas might tell me that values stem from biological imperatives and complex social interactions throughout history. I believe that minds create intention, and meaning; they define what is good and what is evil, i don't think that these things can be objective; I don't think that you think so either because God has a mind. I do things that I consider to be good, and I do things that I consider to be bad (evil/sinful is something that I don't find the need to use during internal dialogues). The good things are often useful and bad things are often damaging by my measurements. For the most part the consequences of what I do seem benign, as far as I can tell. I spend a great deal of my life performing basic bodily functions, which I usually categorize as neutral, although I imagine if they didn't occur I would have to be dead, or malfunctioning, which I consider a bad thing. So does it bother me that I don't always do what I feel is good or right or smart or useful or pleasant? Yes, it does, and if there is anyone in the world who I'd like to do right by then it is myself. I have to live with myself, my mistakes, my regrets, so I try to be true, honest and helpful to myself, I try to make my time pleasant, and do the things that I enjoy and the things that I feel that I must do. As far as I can tell much of this is up to me.


I just realized that I said I don't use "evil" or "sinful" in my internal dialogue, I thought i'd address that before it turns into a talking point. I dont use those words with myself because they dont seem relavent, Things that I am ashamed of or dissappointed with about myself do exists, but I do not define them as sin or evil, because they are religious terminology, and do not express my how I actually feel...I think

okay, your turn :hug:

Hi Oscar,

It's something one hears quite often these days. The denial of the fact of evil. I would say, that one can deny the existence of good and evil in the realm of philosophy, but even those who deny the existence of good and evil, don't live in such a way as to prove their own point. I'm certain if somebody commits a crime against you, you will want to see justice done... If the judge dismisses a case on the basis of, "there isn't really any absolute right and wrong, so I can find no grounds to rule in favour of the victim", surely it'd be wrong in your eyes.

Has anybody ever wronged you? Based on your belief that there isn't really such a thing, how is this possible? If you're saying that nobody has ever wronged you in your entire life, did you ever complain about something somebody did against you? would complaining have been wrong then?

Could it be that the denial of moral absolutes is merely a means of avoiding the conscience?

Doesn't this very thing demonstrate the point made earlier, that the crucifiction of Christ has no value to those who don't believe they need redemption?

In your own mind you're just like everybody else. You're average by human standards, granted, but what is the human standard?

If average is good enough, who then would run the soup kitchens, the orphanages, who would be the policeman and the fireman. All these people risk their lives to make life better for others. Even non-Christians acclaimed Mother Theresa as a good person, who gave of herself to improve life for others. If there is no such thing as good and evil, then mother Theresa is effectively no better than somebody like Hitler or Stalin. Then there would be no reason for anybody to do good... why bother?

Would you not agree that the average human being is actually pretty selfish. We've gotten so used to it that we don't actually realise it anymore, though, do we?


Just look at how we do our daily business:

Buy one get one free is usually associated with a doubling in price.
Supersizing simply gives you more of the cheap stuff.
Thinking, "The potatoes on display look good, therefore the potatoes in the sealed bags must be good too" is utter folly.
"Savings of up to 40% generally means you're likely to save 5%"
A product advertised as "from $999" means the very cheapest product will cost $999, but that's not the product in the picture
$999 is actually $1 short of $1000 but it seems cheaper.
A house advertised as a 'fixer upper' is generally in a state of ruin.
"Order now while stocks last" really means, "whip out your credit card now before you realise you don't actually need this item"
Here's an interesting quote by John Stott which I believe makes a good point:
"Many of the happenings of civilized society would not exist if it were not for human sin. A promise is not enough, we need a contract. Doors are not enough, we have to lock and bolt them. The payment of fares is not enough, we have to be issued the tickets which are punched, inspected and collected. Law and order are not enough, we need the police to enforce them. All these things and many others, to which we have grown accustomed – that we have taken them for granted are due to our sin. We cannot trust each other, we need protection from one another. It is a sorry state of affairs"

[oscarkipling]

Hi Oscar,

It's something one hears quite often these days. The denial of the fact of evil. I would say, that one can deny the existence of good and evil in the realm of philosophy, but even those who deny the existence of good and evil, don't live in such a way as to prove their own point. I'm certain if somebody commits a crime against you, you will want to see justice done... If the judge dismisses a case on the basis of, "there isn't really any absolute right and wrong, so I can find no grounds to rule in favour of the victim", surely it'd be wrong in your eyes.


well Vim, you're right, that would be wrong for a judge to do that, because that would not be in compliance with the law, if indeed this person broke the law. I don't think it would be legal for a judge to do such a thing, judges to my understanding, are supposed to rule based on the laws and statutes. I'm ambivalent about justice...punishment, making an example, revenge, maintaining order, protecting future victims....none of these things really feel just to me, useful yes, but not just. I think about it alot, about prisoners and criminals and justice...I am ambivalent on justice as some high minded ideal when in action its really very utilitarian. Forgiveness is sweeter than justice in my mind...but "justice" is useful. So all i'm saying is, that in a case I would want future victims to be protected more than anything. or at least i want that to be what I want...aww this whole subject kills me..prison is cruel and unsusual...just disregard most of that, i'm rambling.


Has anybody ever wronged you? Based on your belief that there isn't really such a thing, how is this possible? If you're saying that nobody has ever wronged you in your entire life, did you ever complain about something somebody did against you? would complaining have been wrong then?


I really don't understand how you get that I can't feel wronged if there is no such thing as objective good or evil. I can feel wronged based on whatever it is that I feel is wrong. Of course I've felt wronged before, that doesn't mean that it wasn't a subjective judgment. I didn't say that people couldn't have values or morals or philosophies that they live by, what i'm saying is that there must be a mind that creates these judgements, as far as i can tell there is no such thing as objective good or bad...even if there is a God, then what is good and what is bad are judgements by his mind not some separate entity floating off in space. Good and Evil are concepts they are evaluations created by minds.


Could it be that the denial of moral absolutes is merely a means of avoiding the conscience?


I imagine it could be Vim, but I do have a conscience and I do feel guilty about things i've done or not done. Not believing in the objectivity of morals doesnt prevent me from having any.


Doesn't this very thing demonstrate the point made earlier, that the crucifiction of Christ has no value to those who don't believe they need redemption?


yes, it does. So what do you suggest I do?


In your own mind you're just like everybody else. You're average by human standards, granted, but what is the human standard?


not by human standards, but by the standards of a particular human, me. It is a personal evaluation.


If average is good enough, who then would run the soup kitchens, the orphanages, who would be the policeman and the fireman. All these people risk their lives to make life better for others. Even non-Christians acclaimed Mother Theresa as a good person, who gave of herself to improve life for others. If there is no such thing as good and evil, then mother Theresa is effectively no better than somebody like Hitler or Stalin. Then there would be no reason for anybody to do good... why bother?


if average is good enough for what?

yes, by my judgement Mother Theresa was a person who did many good things, not objectively good, but by my own judgement. She rose above the static. as far as I can tell by christian doctrine, Mother Theresa is effectively no better than Hitler or Stalin, she no more deserves heaven than the other 2 or you or myself. All men are sinful, none deserve heaven, its a gift right? no man can be good, only God is good...anyway why bother doing good? like I said earlier Good things are things I deem useful or pleasent or helpful or smart. Why wouldnt I do those things? I think its a little silly to tell me that I have no reason to do what I think is right and good when its appearent that if I consider those things right and good then thats a good reason in and of itself.


Would you not agree that the average human being is actually pretty selfish. We've gotten so used to it that we don't actually realise it anymore, though, do we?


Yes, I believe that people will often behave selfishly...and I think that many of those people realize this.


Just look at how we do our daily business:

Buy one get one free is usually associated with a doubling in price.
Supersizing simply gives you more of the cheap stuff.
Thinking, "The potatoes on display look good, therefore the potatoes in the sealed bags must be good too" is utter folly.
"Savings of up to 40% generally means you're likely to save 5%"
A product advertised as "from $999" means the very cheapest product will cost $999, but that's not the product in the picture
$999 is actually $1 short of $1000 but it seems cheaper.
A house advertised as a 'fixer upper' is generally in a state of ruin.
"Order now while stocks last" really means, "whip out your credit card now before you realise you don't actually need this item"



:lol:, thats a good point. profit over quality and honesty often drives business, thats why i'm a communist!capitalist swine!!:mad:........:rofl:


Here's an interesting quote by John Stott which I believe makes a good point:
"Many of the happenings of civilized society would not exist if it were not for human sin. A promise is not enough, we need a contract. Doors are not enough, we have to lock and bolt them. The payment of fares is not enough, we have to be issued the tickets which are punched, inspected and collected. Law and order are not enough, we need the police to enforce them. All these things and many others, to which we have grown accustomed – that we have taken them for granted are due to our sin. We cannot trust each other, we need protection from one another. It is a sorry state of affairs"

yes, he has a point.

[chisel]

Hi Oscar,

This'll be my last post on the topic, because I believe that once a point is made, any further discussion or debate can easily lead to pride.
So, I'll list some points for you to consider:

1. Every nation and every tribe, no matter how primitive has a law system. And these laws are similar in many respects. Mankind has a natural tendency toward self-centredness and selfishness. Laws are there to protect people from themselves and to combat this 'looking out for number one'. I believe that all people have a sense of justice, which is why even the most liberal religions have some form of justice, be it karma or whatever.

Here's a point to ponder:
If right and wrong are only subjective perceptions...Suppose Hitler's army had won WWII and through propaganda, he managed to convince everybody that killing the jews was right. Would it then be right that he killed those jews?

2. If you believe that prisons are cruel and unusual, I'd bet that you haven't really been a victim of serious crime. Forgiveness is indeed sweet, but only once justice has been served. Forgiving the wicked when justice isn't served, makes a mockery of any law and is a slap in the face of a victim. If a country were to close down all it's prisons and implement a forgiveness system instead of a justice system, I submit to you that you won't want to live there.

3. This is where Christianity is unique. Justice is necessary, for we are indeed guilty, but how does a just and Holy God bring about forgiveness without making a mockery of what is right and good.

He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD.
(Pro 17:15)

If God were to justify the wicked, by His own LAW He would be an abomination, right?

So how does God become the justifier of the ungodly spoken of in Romans 4:5 without being an abomination?

And to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
(Rom 4:5)

You'll find it requires a price...

In closing:
Yes, ofcourse you can disagree. You can believe that there is no such thing as absolute good and evil, in which case there needs to be no forgiveness because there won't be anything to forgive. Yes, you can deny all of it. You can even follow your worldview to it's logical end and state that mother Theresa is effectively no better than Hitler or Stalin, but if you do so, then Christianity will have no meaning to you, because the Christian God is a just and righteous God. He is just to the point where He offered His very own beloved Son, to pay the price of injustice so that the unjust can be looked upon as righteous even though they are not.

Oscar, it is my sincerest hope that you'll one day look at the cross of Jesus Christ and not see a symbol of something that you despise and detest, but that it'll be your greatest hope and the source of greatest joy. That is what it means to the few Christians who are aware of who they are and what would have been their end if they got what they truly deserved.

cheers

V.

[oscarkipling]

I found it hard

[oscarkipling]

its hard to find

[oscarkipling]

Hi Oscar,

This'll be my last post on the topic, because I believe that once a point is made, any further discussion or debate can easily lead to pride.
So, I'll list some points for you to consider:

[quote=Vim;1804993]
1. Every nation and every tribe, no matter how primitive has a law system. And these laws are similar in many respects. Mankind has a natural tendency toward self-centredness and selfishness. Laws are there to protect people from themselves and to combat this 'looking out for number one'. I believe that all people have a sense of justice, which is why even the most liberal religions have some form of justice, be it karma or whatever.


for the most part I agree with this statement


Here's a point to ponder:
If right and wrong are only subjective perceptions...Suppose Hitler's army had won WWII and through propaganda, he managed to convince everybody that killing the jews was right. Would it then be right that he killed those jews?


I think that there is a possibility that if Nazis ruled the world then people might generally agree that the Jews were evil and needed to be destroyed. Its also possible that the holocaust would be something that modern Nazis would look back at as a shameful part of their history, just like slavery to any reasonable American looks at slavery. would it be right? not to me, not right now being who I am, but its extremely tricky doing an exercise like this because in this alternate universe it is highly unlikely that I would have been born so I wouldn't actually be able to judge those actions. So , some people would probably think it was right while others would think it was wrong.


2. If you believe that prisons are cruel and unusual, I'd bet that you haven't really been a victim of serious crime. Forgiveness is indeed sweet, but only once justice has been served. Forgiving the wicked when justice isn't served, makes a mockery of any law and is a slap in the face of a victim. If a country were to close down all it's prisons and implement a forgiveness system instead of a justice system, I submit to you that you won't want to live there.


depends on what you consider a serious crime I guess, but suffice it to say that I consider what happened to me to be serious. In any case no-one has ever went to prison for wronging me, and if they had, I'm not sure I would feel that justice was served. To me justice would be having it never happen, anything short of that is punishment, revenge, making an example or protecting future victims...and all of those things are useful, but they are not erasers, and they wouldn't do anything to heal me, save the last one. Given all that, I still think that prison is cruel and unusual, I don't mean that they have no use, but they certainly don't reform very many criminals, prison imo is not an environment conducive to reform. From what i've seen and heard, they are disgusting, horrifying,destructive places unfit for humans unless you are some sort of sadist...but thats just my opinion. they are still useful, they just suck. like grenades...nobody wants there to have to be grenades, but they are useful for a 2 second cookoff and then tossing into a machine gun position. I never mistook a grenade for anything but a useful tool for destruction, just like I dont mistake prisons for justice . I hope this clears up my position on prisons


As far as forgivness is concerned, my forgiveness is not contingent on how much time if any my transgressor serves or whether or not they actually feel any remorse or guilt, none of that could ever pay me back anyway, it cant give back to me what was taken. My forgiveness is mine to give, and when I give it i'm giving it as much to myself as I am to them..imo


3. This is where Christianity is unique. Justice is necessary, for we are indeed guilty, but how does a just and Holy God bring about forgiveness without making a mockery of what is right and good.

He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD.
(Pro 17:15)

If God were to justify the wicked, by His own LAW He would be an abomination, right?

So how does God become the justifier of the ungodly spoken of in Romans 4:5 without being an abomination?

And to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
(Rom 4:5)


well, I dont want to justify the wicked, I guess I just look at this differntly.
They can stil be dead wrong in my eyes and be forgiven. But thanks for informing me about this nuance of Christianity.


You'll find it requires a price...

In closing:
Yes, ofcourse you can disagree. You can believe that there is no such thing as absolute good and evil, in which case there needs to be no forgiveness because there won't be anything to forgive. Yes, you can deny all of it. You can even follow your worldview to it's logical end and state that mother Theresa is effectively no better than Hitler or Stalin, but if you do so, then Christianity will have no meaning to you, because the Christian God is a just and righteous God. He is just to the point where He offered His very own beloved Son, to pay the price of injustice so that the unjust can be looked upon as righteous even though they are not.


well, i guess i already address the fogiveness portion here. I think I even addressed why I would do good things over bad things in my other post. Now Mother Theresa, it was my understanding that in Christianity that mother Theresa is no more deserving of heaven than Hitler, she just happened to believe and follow god, so she recieved salvation as a gift, not because she deserved it , but because she accepted God's "gift"...personally I feel,within my own moral structure that Mother Theresa was a good lady, but that is my personal judgement. Absolute good and evil are God's judgements if he exist's..therefore subject to whatever he thinks...its still not objective. So Christianity has meaning to me but not the meaning that it has to you, not because I feel like Hitler was a fine human being, but because I dont believe that God exists.


Oscar, it is my sincerest hope that you'll one day look at the cross of Jesus Christ and not see a symbol of something that you despise and detest, but that it'll be your greatest hope and the source of greatest joy. That is what it means to the few Christians who are aware of who they are and what would have been their end if they got what they truly deserved.

cheers

V.


Daniel Molloy (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000225/): What about crucifixes?
Louis (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000093/): Crucifixes?
Daniel Molloy (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000225/): Yes, can you look at them?
Louis (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000093/): Actually I am quite fond of looking at crucifixes.

I dont depise or detest cruxes or chiasmas or christians or christenings, I get frustrated and angry with them sometimes, but thats about the extent of it.


okay, back to my original question, what do you suggest I do?

well I guess thats not my "original" original question, but the question I had originonally posed to you...originally:o

[oscarkipling]

^ hey look at that

[oscarkipling]

^^i'm totally fine with anyone responding...seriously..anybody...in accordance with the rules and regulations of the board that is.

[Sold Out]

On God
God is not everything, nor is he in everything. God is also not everywhere.
.

God IS everywhere.....

"O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee." Psalm 139:1-12

[DaniHansen]

lol, yeah, but if you think about it that's a pretty neat analogy, Jesus is in the salvation business, and you must enter into a contract with him.

In this, I think, you show more understanding than many "saved" people I know. We always want to emotionalize the Gospel, but it's actually pretty straightforward, and cut and dried. If only we didn't complicate it so ...

God is, and always has been, a covenant God.