When Sarah went Ballistic

[Olddad]

The story of Hagar and Ishmael is a familiar one

‘The child grew, and was weaned; and Abraham made a great feast on the day that Isaac was weaned. But Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Evyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, playing [I]with her son Isaac*. So she said to Abraham, “Cast out this slave woman with her son; for the son of this slave woman shall not inherit along with my son Isaac.” The matter was very distressing to Abraham on account of his son.’ (Genesis 21:8-11, New Revised Standard Version) * The words in italics are missing from the Hebrew.

If this sounds harsh to us, it was also harsh to Abraham, as can be seen from his reaction. Sending a mother and child into the wilderness could be a death sentence!

Nevertheless, God told Abraham to listen to Sarah, and the boy and his mother were sent into the desert with a skin of water to sustain them.

‘And when the water in the skin was gone, she flung the child under one of the bushes and went off and sat down at a distance, a bowshot away, for she thought, “Let me not see when the child dies.”....And God heard the voice of the lad...And God was with the lad, and he grew up and dwelled in the wilderness, and he became a seasoned bowman....and his mother took him a wife from the land of Egypt.’
(Genesis 21: 15-16, 17, 20-21, Robert Alter’s translation)

The key to this passage could be in the word ‘play’. In the original, this word was associated with sex play. What if Sarah went ballistic because Ishmael was caught in sex play with a younger boy, Isaac? That would explain why God told Abraham to send the boy away and why the boy’s mother flung him away. Nevertheless, the boy called to God and God heard him, and at the end of this passage his life and his sexuality were set right.

'God was with the boy, and he grew up; he lived in the wilderness and became an expert with the bow. He lived in the wilderness of Paran; and his mother got a wife for him from the land of Egypt.' (Genesis 21:20-21)

If this is a way of reading the passage, a profound lesson about child and adolescent sexuality may have been tossed aside. The Septuagint, which was translated before the Masoretes had standardized the text, did not let on that it could be sex play. The Masoretes, who could not bear to think of sex play between Ishmael and Isaac, dropped the words ‘with his brother Isaac’. Later translators followed the Masoretes or the Septuagint and also missed it. Robert Alter noted that some medieval Jewish scholars had speculated that this could be the case, though he did not agree.

Myself, I think it is about time to reexamine this old text. Could it be evidence that children who have been acting inappropriately can be rehabilitated and go on to lead normal lives?

[moonglow]

The story of Hagar and Ishmael is a familiar one

‘The child grew, and was weaned; and Abraham made a great feast on the day that Isaac was weaned. But Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Evyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, playing [I]with her son Isaac*. So she said to Abraham, “Cast out this slave woman with her son; for the son of this slave woman shall not inherit along with my son Isaac.” The matter was very distressing to Abraham on account of his son.’ (Genesis 21:8-11, New Revised Standard Version) * The words in italics are missing from the Hebrew.

If this sounds harsh to us, it was also harsh to Abraham, as can be seen from his reaction. Sending a mother and child into the wilderness could be a death sentence!

Nevertheless, God told Abraham to listen to Sarah, and the boy and his mother were sent into the desert with a skin of water to sustain them.

‘And when the water in the skin was gone, she flung the child under one of the bushes and went off and sat down at a distance, a bowshot away, for she thought, “Let me not see when the child dies.”....And God heard the voice of the lad...And God was with the lad, and he grew up and dwelled in the wilderness, and he became a seasoned bowman....and his mother took him a wife from the land of Egypt.’
(Genesis 21: 15-16, 17, 20-21, Robert Alter’s translation)

The key to this passage could be in the word ‘play’. In the original, this word was associated with sex play. What if Sarah went ballistic because Ishmael was caught in sex play with a younger boy, Isaac? That would explain why God told Abraham to send the boy away and why the boy’s mother flung him away. Nevertheless, the boy called to God and God heard him, and at the end of this passage his life and his sexuality were set right.

'God was with the boy, and he grew up; he lived in the wilderness and became an expert with the bow. He lived in the wilderness of Paran; and his mother got a wife for him from the land of Egypt.' (Genesis 21:20-21)

If this is a way of reading the passage, a profound lesson about child and adolescent sexuality may have been tossed aside. The Septuagint, which was translated before the Masoretes had standardized the text, did not let on that it could be sex play. The Masoretes, who could not bear to think of sex play between Ishmael and Isaac, dropped the words ‘with his brother Isaac’. Later translators followed the Masoretes or the Septuagint and also missed it. Robert Alter noted that some medieval Jewish scholars had speculated that this could be the case, though he did not agree.

Myself, I think it is about time to reexamine this old text. Could it be evidence that children who have been acting inappropriately can be rehabilitated and go on to lead normal lives?

Where you even find the word, 'play' in this whole chapter? Even using the same bible translation you did I am not finding it anywhere.
I think this is greatly adding to scriptures which the bible warns us not to do. I have never heard of such a thing. Sarah was upset because Hagar was mocking her...scoffing at her. Also the New Revised Standard Version does not say Hagar 'flung' her son under a bush...it says sheleft him under a brush...probably to keep the hot sun off of him I would image. The boy was probably only three years old, certainly not old enough to be sexually molesting anyone! Children at that age have no concept of such a thing.

Genesis 21:8-11
8 The child grew and was weaned, and Abraham made a great feast on the day that Isaac was weaned.

9 Now Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, mocking.

10 Therefore she said to Abraham, "Drive out this maid and her son, for the son of this maid shall not be an heir with my son Isaac."

11 The matter distressed Abraham greatly because of his son.

12 But God said to Abraham, "Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be named.

13 "And of the son of the maid I will make a nation also, because he is your descendant."

14 So Abraham rose early in the morning and took bread and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar, putting them on her shoulder, and gave her the boy, and sent her away. And she departed and wandered about in the wilderness of Beersheba.

15 When the water in the skin was used up, she left the boy under one of the bushes.

16 Then she went and sat down opposite him, about a bowshot away, for she said, "Do not let me see the boy die." And she sat opposite him, and lifted up her voice and wept.

17God heard the lad crying; and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, "What is the matter with you, Hagar? Do not fear, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is.

18"Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him by the hand, for I will make a great nation of him."

19Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water; and she went and filled the skin with water and gave the lad a drink.

20God was with the lad, and he grew; and he lived in the wilderness and became an archer.

21He lived in the wilderness of Paran, and his mother took a wife for him from the land of Egypt.

Adam Clark bible commentary (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=021)
Verse 8. The child grew and was weaned
{-----Anglo-Saxon-----}. Anglo-Saxon VERSION. Now the child waxed and became weaned. We have the verb to wean from the Anglo-Saxon {A.S.} awendan, to convert, transfer, turn from one thing to another, which is the exact import of the Hebrew word gamal in the text. Hence {A.S.} wenan, to wean, to turn the child from the breast to receive another kind of ailment. And hence, probably, the word WEAN, a young child, which is still in use in the northern parts of Great Britain and Ireland, and which from its etymology seems to signify a child taken from the breast; surely not from the Scotch wee-ane, a little one, much less from the German wenig, little, as Dr. Johnson and others would derive it.

At what time children were weaned among the ancients, is a disputed point. St. Jerome says there were two opinions on this subject. Some hold that children were always weaned at five years of age; others, that they were not weaned till they were twelve. From the speech of the mother to her son, 2Mac 7:27, it seems likely that among the Jews they were weaned when three years old: O my son, have pity upon me that bare thee nine months in my womb, and gave thee SUCK THREE YEARS, and nourished thee and brought thee up. And this is farther strengthened by 2 Chronicles 31:16, where Hezekiah, in making provision for the Levites and priests, includes the children from three years old and upwards; which is a presumptive proof that previously to this age they were wholly dependent on the mother for their nourishment. Samuel appears to have been brought to the sanctuary when he was just weaned, and then he was capable of ministering before the Lord, 1 Samuel 1:22-28; and this certainly could not be before he was three years of age. The term among the Mohammedans is fixed by the Koran, chap. xxxi. 14, at two years of age.

Verse 9. Mocking.
What was implied in this mocking is not known. St. Paul, Galatians 4:29, calls it persecuting; but it is likely he meant no more than some species of ridicule used by Ishmael on the occasion, and probably with respect to the age of Sarah at Isaac's birth, and her previous barrenness. Jonathan ben Uzziel and the Jerusalem Targum represent Ishmael as performing some idolatrous rite on the occasion, and that this had given the offence to Sarah. Conjectures are as useless as they are endless. Whatever it was, it became the occasion of the expulsion of himself and mother. Several authors are of opinion that the Egyptian bondage of four hundred years, mentioned Genesis 15:13, commenced with this persecution of the righteous seed by the son of an Egyptian woman.

Verse 10. Cast out this bondwoman and her son
Both Sarah and Abraham have been accused of cruelty in this transaction, because every word reads harsh to us. Cast out; garash signifies not only to thrust out, drive away, and expel, but also to divorce; (see Leviticus 21:7;) and it is in this latter sense the word should be understood here.

The child of Abraham by Hagar might be considered as having a right at least to a part of the inheritance; and as it was sufficiently known to Sarah that God had designed that the succession should be established in the line of Isaac, she wished Abraham to divorce Hagar, or to perform some sort of legal act by which Ishmael might be excluded from all claim on the inheritance.

[watchinginawe]

I don't know enough about Hebrew to really know if the word usage supports the arguement. That said, my feeble check does support that the word "sporting" in the following passage is the same as used in the subject passage regarding Isaac:

Genesis 26:8 And it came to pass, when he had been there a long time, that Abimelech king of the Philistines looked out at a window, and saw, and, behold, Isaac was sporting with Rebekah his wife.

9 And Abimelech called Isaac, and said, Behold, of a surety she is thy wife; and how saidst thou, She is my sister? And Isaac said unto him, Because I said, Lest I die for her.

http://www.studylight.org/desk/view.cgi?number=06711

The word is used 10 times in Genesis and only in the above passage is it translated in a way to indicate intimacy. What Abimelech observed allowed him to discern that Isaac was Rebekah's husband instead of her brother.

All other usages are clearly instances of "laughing" or "mocking". In the instances of "laughing" the context is one of "laughing in unbelief" instead of humor, so those usages would be very similar to "mocking".

But, when we examine Sarah's objection, I think the word here means mocking. I have seen some pretty good movie interpretations of the scene so I might be prejudiced to that as well. ;):

Genesis 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

God Bless!

[watchinginawe]

On another note, what is the story with "Olddad" regarding "No, I am not a Chrisitian"? What is your testimony of God and from what perspective do you bring these probing subjects?

God Bless!

[Olddad]

Where you even find the word, 'play' in this whole chapter? Even using the same bible translation you did I am not finding it anywhere.
I double checked my NRSV. Genesis Chapter 21 Verse 9 says: "But Sarah saw the son of Hagar....playing with her son Isaac." It also has a note that says "Gk Vg: Heb lacks with her son Isaac." I said this in my original posting.

In verse 15 the NRSV reads "When the water in the skin was gone, she cast the child under one of the bushes."

Robert Alter renders this as "And when the water in the skin was gone she flung the child under one of the bushes..."

Please check what I wrote. I said what translation I was quoting from. Of course, different translations bring out different things in the text. (Your quotation did not come from the NRSV.)

You said: "The boy was probably only three years old, certainly not old enough to be sexually molesting anyone! Children at that age have no concept of such a thing."

However, the Bible says that Ishmael was 13 years old when he was circumcised (Genesis 17:23) and this was before Isaac was born or even conceived (See Genesis Chapter 18). The three year old in this story was Isaac, the boy Ishmael was playing with.

How would you react if you found out that a teenager was "playing" with your 3 year old? I think you'd go ballistic, too.

[Olddad]

On another note, what is the story with "Olddad" regarding "No, I am not a Chrisitian"? What is your testimony of God and from what perspective do you bring these probing subjects?

God Bless!

I look at the stories in the Bible as human documents, but I believe that they can teach us a lot. I have no interest in proving them true or false. I have found that reading them from a secular point of view frees me to ask questions that a believer might not dare to ask. However, the answers that I have found have often been enlightening in a way that no believer need fear.

[dljc]

Hi Olddad, :wave:

From the Strong's Concordance it translates the Hebrew this way:

H6711
צחק
tsâchaq
tsaw-khak'
A primitive root; to laugh outright (in merriment or scorn); by implication to sport: - laugh, mock, play, make sport.

That's why the KJV and some other translations have the word "mock" instead of play. They are different in the respect of playing for enjoyment and making fun of someone are they not?

You can get a free copy of the Strong's Concordance if you download e-Sword (http://www.e-sword.net/).

[Tanya~]

OT:6711
OT:6711 tsachaq (tsaw-khak'); a primitive root; to laugh outright (in merriment or scorn); by implication, to sport:

KJV - laugh, mock, play, make sport.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

OT:6711
OT:6711 tsachaq —
to laugh, to mock, to play

a) (Qal) to laugh
b) (Piel)
1) to jest
2) to sport, to play, to make sport, to toy with, to make a toy of
(from The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright © 1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research.)

OT:6711
1905 OT:6711 qj^x* (
ƒ¹µaq
) laugh (Qal); play, mock (Piel).

...

OT:4890
The simple stem of
ƒ¹µaq
conveys the idea of laughter, whether in joy or incredulity. The stronger Piel stem connotes positively, play and sport, or negatively, mockery and derision.
(from Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament. Copyright © 1980 by The Moody Bible Institute of Chicago. All rights reserved. Used by permission.)

Ishmael was mocking and deriding Isaac, not molesting him sexually.

Even when this word is used to describe what Isaac was doing with his wife doesn't mean they were having sex or that he was fondling her. They wouldn't have done that out in the open! He was sporting with her... teasing her. He was behaving in a way that a husband would behave with his wife, which is what cued Abimelech in to the fact that they had an intimate relationship.

[watchinginawe]

I look at the stories in the Bible as human documents,
...
I have found that reading them from a secular point of view frees me to ask questions that a believer might not dare to ask.Your interest seems more of study than of "reading" IMO. While "unoffensive secularism" might make for an interesting study paradigm, I still am not sure what your personal perspective on these matters are. I am hesitant to leverage your use of the term "believer" to assume that you are therefore a convinced "unbeliever", though that may be the case.

So from what personal perspective (beliefs) do you approach these topics?

God Bless!

[Buck shot]

How would you react if you found out that a teenager was "playing" with your 3 year old? I think you'd go ballistic, too.

I agree that you are "playing" with words. Mocking is a better interpretation.

Still your comment here saddens me. My wife has a home day car where my teenagers play with the little ones (and so do I) when they can. The little ones love the attention and the teen agers become a role model for the younger ones. Why do people today always think the worse of others. Is there no trust left? To be honest with you, I never even thought about some evil plot behind teens playing with younger kids that have invaded their homes.

I seriously doubt Ishmael did either wth Abraham being his dad.

[Ta-An]

The word used is : מְצַחֵק it's meaning: stand-up comedy, performance where a comedian tells jokes on stage....... the English-Hebrew translation uses the word : Sporting :D

[moonglow]

I double checked my NRSV. Genesis Chapter 21 Verse 9 says: "But Sarah saw the son of Hagar....playing with her son Isaac." It also has a note that says "Gk Vg: Heb lacks with her son Isaac." I said this in my original posting.

In verse 15 the NRSV reads "When the water in the skin was gone, she cast the child under one of the bushes."

Robert Alter renders this as "And when the water in the skin was gone she flung the child under one of the bushes..."

Please check what I wrote. I said what translation I was quoting from. Of course, different translations bring out different things in the text. (Your quotation did not come from the NRSV.)

You said: "The boy was probably only three years old, certainly not old enough to be sexually molesting anyone! Children at that age have no concept of such a thing."

However, the Bible says that Ishmael was 13 years old when he was circumcised (Genesis 17:23) and this was before Isaac was born or even conceived (See Genesis Chapter 18). The three year old in this story was Isaac, the boy Ishmael was playing with.

How would you react if you found out that a teenager was "playing" with your 3 year old? I think you'd go ballistic, too.

Sorry...you are right on some of this...my dyslexia having fun with me again...:rolleyes:

This is what I found:

Genesis 16
15 So Hagar gave Abram a son, and Abram named him Ishmael. 16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Ishmael was born.

Genesis 21
. 4 Eight days after Isaac was born, Abraham circumcised him as God had commanded. 5 Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born.

So yes Ishmael was a teenager when Isaac was born. Since he was probably as bigger or bigger then his mother...how do you suppose she flung him under a brush? My son is almost 13 and a half an inch taller then I am and is much, much too heavy for me to lift at 117 pds! I could possibly grab him by the arm and try to fling him somewhere...but more then likely he would just laugh at me and fling me across the room!

And yes I got the wrong translation too...I thought I had the right one. On biblegateway you can select different bible translations. But on a closer look I don't see this one you are using on there.

Going back to chapter 16 we see Hagar treating Sarah badly after she becomes pregnant:

1 Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had not been able to bear children for him. But she had an Egyptian servant named Hagar. 2 So Sarai said to Abram, “The Lord has prevented me from having children. Go and sleep with my servant. Perhaps I can have children through her.” And Abram agreed with Sarai’s proposal. 3 So Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian servant and gave her to Abram as a wife. (This happened ten years after Abram had settled in the land of Canaan.)

4 So Abram had sexual relations with Hagar, and she became pregnant. But when Hagar knew she was pregnant, she began to treat her mistress, Sarai, with contempt. 5 Then Sarai said to Abram, “This is all your fault! I put my servant into your arms, but now that she’s pregnant she treats me with contempt. The Lord will show who’s wrong—you or me!”

So then Sarah starts treating her harshly and Hagar runs away..

7 The angel of the Lord found Hagar beside a spring of water in the wilderness, along the road to Shur. 8 The angel said to her, “Hagar, Sarai’s servant, where have you come from, and where are you going?”

“I’m running away from my mistress, Sarai,” she replied.

9 The angel of the Lord said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit to her authority.” 10 Then he added, “I will give you more descendants than you can count.”

11 And the angel also said, “You are now pregnant and will give birth to a son. You are to name him Ishmael (which means ‘God hears’), for the Lord has heard your cry of distress. 12 This son of yours will be a wild man, as untamed as a wild donkey! He will raise his fist against everyone, and everyone will be against him. Yes, he will live in open hostility against all his relatives.”

Ok here are two clues so far that things aren't going to be going well once Isaac is born...first Hagar treats Sarah badly...and now and angel of the Lord is telling her that her son will be wild and will 'raise his first against everyone including his own relatives...being hostile to his own relatives and Isaac is his half brother....

Still using the New Living Translation here:

Genesis 21

8 When Isaac grew up and was about to be weaned, Abraham prepared a huge feast to celebrate the occasion. 9 But Sarah saw Ishmael—the son of Abraham and her Egyptian servant Hagar—making fun of her son,
Isaac.

Whether it was her or Isaac makes no difference...these two, Hagar and her son, we already set in being that type of a person...mocking, scorning...disrespectful...and it wasn't going to get any better.

[Olddad]

So yes Ishmael was a teenager when Isaac was born. Since he was probably as bigger or bigger then his mother...how do you suppose she flung him under a brush? My son is almost 13 and a half an inch taller then I am and is much, much too heavy for me to lift at 117 pds! I could possibly grab him by the arm and try to fling him somewhere...but more then likely he would just laugh at me and fling me across the room!

Going back to chapter 16 we see Hagar treating Sarah badly after she becomes pregnant:

So then Sarah starts treating her harshly and Hagar runs away..

9 The angel of the Lord said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit to her authority.” 10 Then he added, “I will give you more descendants than you can count.”

11 And the angel also said, “You are now pregnant and will give birth to a son. You are to name him Ishmael (which means ‘God hears’), for the Lord has heard your cry of distress. 12 This son of yours will be a wild man, as untamed as a wild donkey! He will raise his fist against everyone, and everyone will be against him. Yes, he will live in open hostility against all his relatives.”

8 When Isaac grew up and was about to be weaned, Abraham prepared a huge feast to celebrate the occasion. 9 But Sarah saw Ishmael—the son of Abraham and her Egyptian servant Hagar—making fun of her son,
Isaac.

Whether it was her or Isaac makes no difference...these two, Hagar and her son, we already set in being that type of a person...mocking, scorning...disrespectful...and it wasn't going to get any better.

Yes. Hagar did not treat Sarah with enough respect. Sarah then treated Hagar so badly that, despite her pregnancy, she ran away. History, of course, is written by the winners, and Sarah was in the box seat here. However, the fact that a pregnant woman would run away speaks volumes of the treatment she was receiving from her mistress, Sarah.

I agree that if there was a 14 year difference in the boys' ages, then Ishmael would be about 17, and far too big for a woman to throw him around. However, in the story in Genesis 21 he does seem younger.

But let's look at what happened. The pre-Masoretic text said that Ishmael was doing something with his brother Isaac. Whatever he was doing, whether it was playing, sporting, mocking or laughing at the boy, Sarah went ballistic. When used in other contexts, the same word could have some sexual overtones. In Deuteronomy 22:21, it was used to describe a woman who played the whore in her father's house. Exodus 32:6 used it to describe the revelry around the Golden Calf. Potiphar's wife used this word to describe what Joseph was supposed to have done to her in Genesis 39:14 and 17.

So what happened to the text? Somewhere between the translation of the Septuagint and the fixing of the Masoretic text the words "with his brother Isaac" dropped out of the text. The Masoretes were not averse to adjusting the text when it suited them. One other notable instance was in Genesis 4:8, where the Masoretes omitted the phrase 'Let us go into the field'.

An apparent adjustment to the Masoretic text is immediate cause to suspect that something is going on. I believe that in this story, the wording became suggestive and the Masoretes left it out.

However, if we leave it in, it shows a boy who had gone seriously astray calling to God, and God hearing his voice and preserving his life. We also find that his mother found him a wife, so it does look as if this young man got his life in some order.

Not a bad message for those whose children are giving them grief.

[chisel]

The pseudographical book of Yasher mentions that Abraham had a feast for Isaac and Ismael became jealous and wanted to kill Isaac, but Sarah was watching them and she put a stop to it.

I find this ties in with the theme of jealousy seen in Cain and Joseph's brothers, and I think it's certainly a plausible account, however the book of Yasher has in my opinion absolutely no authority, so this is purely for interest sake.

[moonglow]

Yes. Hagar did not treat Sarah with enough respect. Sarah then treated Hagar so badly that, despite her pregnancy, she ran away. History, of course, is written by the winners, and Sarah was in the box seat here. However, the fact that a pregnant woman would run away speaks volumes of the treatment she was receiving from her mistress, Sarah.

I agree that if there was a 14 year difference in the boys' ages, then Ishmael would be about 17, and far too big for a woman to throw him around. However, in the story in Genesis 21 he does seem younger.

But let's look at what happened. The pre-Masoretic text said that Ishmael was doing something with his brother Isaac. Whatever he was doing, whether it was playing, sporting, mocking or laughing at the boy, Sarah went ballistic. When used in other contexts, the same word could have some sexual overtones. In Deuteronomy 22:21, it was used to describe a woman who played the whore in her father's house. Exodus 32:6 used it to describe the revelry around the Golden Calf. Potiphar's wife used this word to describe what Joseph was supposed to have done to her in Genesis 39:14 and 17.

So what happened to the text? Somewhere between the translation of the Septuagint and the fixing of the Masoretic text the words "with his brother Isaac" dropped out of the text. The Masoretes were not averse to adjusting the text when it suited them. One other notable instance was in Genesis 4:8, where the Masoretes omitted the phrase 'Let us go into the field'.

An apparent adjustment to the Masoretic text is immediate cause to suspect that something is going on. I believe that in this story, the wording became suggestive and the Masoretes left it out.

However, if we leave it in, it shows a boy who had gone seriously astray calling to God, and God hearing his voice and preserving his life. We also find that his mother found him a wife, so it does look as if this young man got his life in some order.

Not a bad message for those whose children are giving them grief.

Do you happen to have a link as to the Masoretest text you are looking at?
Thanks.

Ok...rather then to debate this as its not really productive since the message you are trying to get across is a changed life...yes I would agree with you that indeed a teenager can be turned around for sure. Whatever he might or might not have been trying to do with Isaac.

Ishmael didn't have it so bad off either though...he was also blessed by God and had many children that made up 12 tribes also.

Genesis 17:20
As for Ishmael, I will bless him also, just as you have asked. I will make him extremely fruitful and multiply his descendants. He will become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.

And he lived to be 137 years old.

Going back to Sarah...as Christians we learn from her mistakes. She messed up alot! She laughed when the Lord said she would bear a child in her old age...she also went along with her husband lying about her not being his wife...she also was too impatient in waiting on the Lord and had her husband sleep with Hagar so they could have a child. She made alot of mistakes! From our point of view she was a sinner, like the rest of us, and very human. None of the winners in the bible as you put it were perfect and that is pretty clear to see. While the customs back there were very different then ours today we can relate to her because of all her mess ups! And this goes for her husband too. None of them are portrayed as being sinless or perfect by any means. Yet God shows great mercy and grace to all of them inspite of their childish behavior at times. Something again we can all relate too...

[Olddad]

Do you happen to have a link as to the Masoretest text you are looking at?
Thanks.

Yes. The evidence is in the footnotes of every good translation that inserts the phrase "with his brother Isaac". Here are two examples:

"Some ancient translations with Sarah's son Isaac; Hebrew does not have these words." Good News Bible, note to Genesis 21:9

"Gk Vg: Heb lacks with her son Isaac New Revised Standard Version, note to Genesis 21:9.

If you are checking this on the Internet, these notes may not be reproduced, but they can be found in the printed versions of these translations.

Finally, thank you for your kind words and the friendly tone that you use.

[Ta-An]

Finally, thank you for your kind words and the friendly tone that you use.Yes, moonglow is a darling, but do not mess with her G_d, then you'll be in BIG TROUBLE!!!! :)

[moonglow]

Yes. The evidence is in the footnotes of every good translation that inserts the phrase "with his brother Isaac". Here are two examples:

"Some ancient translations with Sarah's son Isaac; Hebrew does not have these words." Good News Bible, note to Genesis 21:9

"Gk Vg: Heb lacks with her son Isaac New Revised Standard Version, note to Genesis 21:9.

If you are checking this on the Internet, these notes may not be reproduced, but they can be found in the printed versions of these translations.

Finally, thank you for your kind words and the friendly tone that you use.

Sure...if I sounded grumpy before...it wasn't directed at you...

Please understand what you are proposing here is something most every human being finds very repulsive and our reaction was based on that more then anything. Its not that the bible doesn't cover some pretty offensive things that humans have done in history...its just I don't think any of us ever came across this in regards to this passage is all...

Though ACCM is right about our God...;) :lol:

Anyway I did some looking...checking other bible translations...even checked the lexicon on Hebrew to see if it showed what you are seeing...didn't find it but I did find this which I thought was interesting though its not really about what you are pointing out:

Galatians 4
English Standard Version
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

"Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband."

28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman." 31 So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

Alot of times what we see in the OT has a spiritual meaning as this does..

Adam Clark bible commentary (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=ga&chapter=004)
Verse 22. For it is written
Viz. in Genesis 16:15;; 22:1, that Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac; the one; Ishmael, by a bond maid, Hagar; the other, Isaac, by a free woman, Sarah.

Verse 23. Was born after the flesh
Ishmael was born according to the course of nature, his parents being both of a proper age, so that there was nothing uncommon or supernatural in his birth: this is the proper meaning of the apostle's κατασαρκα, after or according to the flesh, and answers to the Hebrew phrase, al derec basar, according to the manner of the flesh, i.e. naturally, according to the common process of nature.

By promise.
Both Abraham and Sarah had passed that age in which the procreation of children was possible on natural principles. The birth, therefore, of Isaac was supernatural; it was the effect of an especial promise of God; and it was only on the ground of that promise that it was either credible or possible.

Verse 24. Which things are an allegory
They are to be understood spiritually; more being intended in the account than meets the eye.

Allegory, from αλλος, another, and αγορεω, or αγοπευω, to speak, signifies a thing that is a representative of another, where the literal sense is the representative of a spiritual meaning; or, as the glossary expresses it, ετερωςκαταμεταφρασιν νοουμενακαιουκατατηναναγνωσιν. "where the thing is to be understood differently in the interpretation than it appears in the reading."

Allegories are frequent in all countries, and are used by all writers. In the life of Homer, the author, speaking of the marriage of Jupiter and Juno, related by that poet, says: δοκει ταυτααλληγορεισθαιοτιηραμεννοειταιοαηρζευςδεοαιθηρ . "It appears that these things are to be understood allegorically; for Juno means the air, Jupiter the aether." Plutarch, in his treatise De Iside et Osir., says: ωσπερελληνεςκρονον αλληγορουσιτονχρονον. "As the Greeks allegorize Cronos (Saturn) into Chronos (Time.)" It is well known how fond the Jews were of allegorizing. Every thing in the law was with them an allegory. Their Talmud is full of these; and one of their most sober and best educated writers, Philo, abounds with them. Speaking (De Migrat. Abrah., page 420) of the five daughters of Zelophehad, he says: αςαλληγορουντεςαισθησειςειναιφαμεν. "which, allegorizing, we assert to be the five senses!"

It is very likely, therefore, that the allegory produced here, St. Paul had borrowed from the Jewish writings; and he brings it in to convict the Judaizing Galatians on their own principles; and neither he nor we have any thing farther to do with this allegory than as it applies to the subject for which it is quoted; nor does it give any license to those men of vain and superficial minds who endeavour to find out allegories in every portion of the sacred writings, and, by what they term spiritualizing, which is more properly carnalizing, have brought the testimonies of God into disgrace. May the spirit of silence be poured out upon all such corrupters of the word of God!

For these are the two covenants
These signify two different systems of religion; the one by Moses, the other by the Messiah.

The one from the Mount Sinai
On which the law was published; which was typified by Hagar, Abraham's bond maid.

Which gendereth to bondage
For as the bond maid or slave could only gender-bring forth her children, in a state of slavery, and subject also to become slaves, so all that are born and live under those Mosaic institutions are born and live in a state of bondage-a bondage to various rites and ceremonies; under the obligation to keep the whole law, yet, from its severity and their frailness, obliged to live in the habitual breach of it, and in consequence exposed to the curse which it pronounces.

[Olddad]

Sure...if I sounded grumpy before...it wasn't directed at you...

Moonglow, I thanked you because not everyone here is so polite. Instead of saying something sharp to another poster I said something nice to you. It wasn't meant to come across in such a pointed way.

Also, thank you for your detailed response. I read it with interest.

[moonglow]

Moonglow, I thanked you because not everyone here is so polite. Instead of saying something sharp to another poster I said something nice to you. It wasn't meant to come across in such a pointed way.

Also, thank you for your detailed response. I read it with interest.

Oh I see...smart guy you are...;)

I hope you have a great day!

[slightlypuzzled]

1 Now Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; 2 so she said to Abram, "The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her."
Abram agreed to what Sarai said. 3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4 He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.
When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress. 5 Then Sarai said to Abram, "You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my servant in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the LORD judge between you and me."

6 "Your servant is in your hands," Abram said. "Do with her whatever you think best." Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her.

7 The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. 8 And he said, "Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?"
"I'm running away from my mistress Sarai," she answered.

9 Then the angel of the LORD told her, "Go back to your mistress and submit to her." 10 The angel added, "I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count."

11 The angel of the LORD also said to her:
"You are now with child
and you will have a son.
You shall name him Ishmael, [a]
for the LORD has heard of your misery.

12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone's hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward [b] all his brothers."

13 She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: "You are the God who sees me," for she said, "I have now seen [c] the One who sees me." 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi [d] ; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.

15 So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son she had borne. 16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.


I think MG has hit the nail on the head. The two mothers were already in a quarreling mood for almost thirteen years before Isaac was born; a long time for that to be passed onto a growing boy. I imagine his 'play' was probably of the 'put down' variety that we see kids do today. The children pick up on the 'signals' of their parents and happily pass them along to the intended victim. I really think that Abraham really regretted the whole scheme for many years....

[RoadWarrior]

OldDad, I am impressed with your knowledge of scripture, especially for a non-believer. This particular thread has elements in it which at first seem to be disturbing, and could easily lead into some thorny discussions, especially for those who consider themselves descendants of Ishmael!

However, not to go there ... I think that you have a good point, in that when a person (teenager or not) cries out to God, He will answer. And yes, He has the power to change lives, no matter who you are or how great your sins.

BTW, welcome to the board!

[Olddad]

OldDad, I am impressed with your knowledge of scripture, especially for a non-believer. This particular thread has elements in it which at first seem to be disturbing, and could easily lead into some thorny discussions, especially for those who consider themselves descendants of Ishmael!

However, not to go there ... I think that you have a good point, in that when a person (teenager or not) cries out to God, He will answer. And yes, He has the power to change lives, no matter who you are or how great your sins.

BTW, welcome to the board!

Thank you for your kind words. I feel that my interpretation of this passage, while it could be confronting, does not challenge any belief. You mention the idea that for those who consider themselves descendants of Ishmael might find this interpretation disturbing. Perhaps this is so. However, the Book of Genesis is inclined to say quite nasty things about the related tribes. Consider what it says about the beginning of Moab and Ammon (Genesis 19: 30-38) and it does not spare the children of Israel, either. When it comes to describing bad behaviour, no-one is spared.

[RoadWarrior]

Thank you for your kind words. I feel that my interpretation of this passage, while it could be confronting, does not challenge any belief. You mention the idea that for those who consider themselves descendants of Ishmael might find this interpretation disturbing. Perhaps this is so. However, the Book of Genesis is inclined to say quite nasty things about the related tribes. Consider what it says about the beginning of Moab and Ammon (Genesis 19: 30-38) and it does not spare the children of Israel, either. When it comes to describing bad behaviour, no-one is spared.

Very true. The Bible does not hide the defects of man, but allows those very defects to show God's glory. Each of us who are Christians are a living testament to what God can do in a sinful life that has been surrendered to Him.

With all that knowledge, OldDad, what is it that keeps you from that surrender?

[Olddad]

Very true. The Bible does not hide the defects of man,

Agreed.

but allows those very defects to show God's glory.

I don't see it that way.

Each of us who are Christians are a living testament to what God can do in a sinful life that has been surrendered to Him.

From what I have seen, this is not apparent to a disinterested observer.

With all that knowledge, OldDad, what is it that keeps you from that surrender?

As I stated before, I don't see the issue that way.

[RoadWarrior]

..

From what I have seen, this is not apparent to a disinterested observer.

As I stated before, I don't see the issue that way.

One of the biggest problems with Christianity today is that there are so many who call themselves Christians, but have never experienced the new birth. So, to people who are "disinterested observers" there is no discernible difference.

And many times you would be right in what you see. If a person joins the church and starts trying to live as a Christian, they have done nothing more than join a social club.

In the gospel of John, chapter 3, Jesus told Nicodemus that that one must be born again; be born of water and the Spirit; be born of the Spirit. From this passage we gain the understanding that it is not enough to just "join a church" and start acting in a certain way. There is much more to entering the kingdom of God than making a decision. Truly, there must be a life-changing experience - an encounter with God Himself.

If you get to know people who have truly been born again, you will see the difference in our lives. Of course, it takes being interested in what is really there. A disinterested observer will likely not take the time to look.

I am hesitant to tell people my own salvation story. I am so different today that I can barely realize that I am the same person as before. So what you can "see" and read in my posts to you, might seem to you that I am just an ordinary woman. I am. But I am a very changed ordinary woman. I am very embarrassed and ashamed of the life I lived before I surrendered to God.

You, however, are not really a disinterested observer. You would not be here in this forum if you did not have an interest in what it means to be a true Christian.

I have heard it said that Gandhi was very interested in Christianity from hearing about Jesus, and then he met some "Christians" and decided it was not for him. No doubt he met some people who called themselves Christians, but had not been transformed by a true work of Christ in their personal lives.

America today is full of "easy believe-ism" which produces people who think they are saved, but have never surrendered their hearts to Jesus. Other countries have a "state religion" of Christianity, which is just a legalized structure of the Judeo/Christian "rules" of life. It is very sad.

There are also several organized churches who have spread out worldwide, that have a false version of Christianity.

All of this makes it difficult for a seeker to find true Christians. But we are out here. We may be few, scattered and not easily found, but we do exist.

I hope that in your time here on this forum, you will come to be able to discern the difference. There is truly nothing greater in this life, than to fall in love with the One who created us, and to walk with Him.

[Olddad]

I am hesitant to tell people my own salvation story. I am so different today that I can barely realize that I am the same person as before. So what you can "see" and read in my posts to you, might seem to you that I am just an ordinary woman. I am. But I am a very changed ordinary woman.

Road Warrior, I am happy for you that your faith has transformed your life. Believe me, I can tell the difference, even on this forum, between those who speak out with hostility and those who reach out with love.

My reason for unbelief is quite simple: I could not square my beliefs with what I read in the Bible. When I was a young man I concluded that the Bible was full of humbug and horror. However, as the years have passed I found that when I stopped treating the Bible as something to believe, or to prove wrong, that it contained great literature of permanent value. And curiously, when I looked on the Bible in this way, the insights I gained about the text were enlightening, and mostly were not the kind that would undermine the faith of believers.

Let me give you some examples:

There are problems with the belief that the virgin birth was foretold in Isaiah. However, to my surprise, I found that my solution to this did not attack the doctrine of the Virgin Birth.
The two creation stories in the Bible are incompatible if taken literally. However, if you accept that fact, the stories are still of enormous value.
Judges is one of the most confronting and disturbing books in the Bible. However, when I studied it, I found evidence that it was written by a militant feminist writer, who attacked male sexism, stupidity, cruelty and violence.
Isaiah's prophecies give a picture of a man's journey from sexual frustration, to finding a partner, having a child and then to the the frustrations that led him to consider divorce. The personal became prophetic!
For Hosea, the personal also became prophetic, but this was also true for Jonah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel, too.

Even the translations contain stories as translators try to grapple with the text. Cultural issues intrude, and texts that were quite unremarkable in 1534 are carefully sanitized today.

So the Bible contains fascinating stories that all can appreciate. Yes, some are edgy and sound dangerous, like the hints in the text about Sarah's fury with Ishmael, but even more confronting ideas than that can give some interesting insights into the text.

I would like to share some of these insights with people here, and see their reactions to what I have found. Of course, if that is not pleasing to you, please tell me, and I will leave.

[RoadWarrior]

OldDad, I can't speak for everyone, but I am deeply enjoying reading your posts. It is thrilling to me to hear that you have discovered some of the depths of the Bible, even while you are still not accepting everything. To me, that means that you are like I am. You want truth, you want wisdom, but not at the cost of your own intellect and reason.

I have found myself wishing (hoping) for you to become a true Christian, because when that happens, you have the potential to be an excellent communicator in the faith. False doctrines will soon be spied out by you, and refuted with wisdom.

Early on in my Christian walk, I realized that many people check their brains at the door of the church, so to speak. But I also realized that I did not have to do that. God gave us intelligence, not that we should discard it, but that we should use it wisely and well.

[moonglow]

Road Warrior, I am happy for you that your faith has transformed your life. Believe me, I can tell the difference, even on this forum, between those who speak out with hostility and those who reach out with love.

My reason for unbelief is quite simple: I could not square my beliefs with what I read in the Bible. When I was a young man I concluded that the Bible was full of humbug and horror. However, as the years have passed I found that when I stopped treating the Bible as something to believe, or to prove wrong, that it contained great literature of permanent value. And curiously, when I looked on the Bible in this way, the insights I gained about the text were enlightening, and mostly were not the kind that would undermine the faith of believers.

Let me give you some examples:

There are problems with the belief that the virgin birth was foretold in Isaiah. However, to my surprise, I found that my solution to this did not attack the doctrine of the Virgin Birth.
The two creation stories in the Bible are incompatible if taken literally. However, if you accept that fact, the stories are still of enormous value.
Judges is one of the most confronting and disturbing books in the Bible. However, when I studied it, I found evidence that it was written by a militant feminist writer, who attacked male sexism, stupidity, cruelty and violence.
Isaiah's prophecies give a picture of a man's journey from sexual frustration, to finding a partner, having a child and then to the the frustrations that led him to consider divorce. The personal became prophetic!
For Hosea, the personal also became prophetic, but this was also true for Jonah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel, too.

Even the translations contain stories as translators try to grapple with the text. Cultural issues intrude, and texts that were quite unremarkable in 1534 are carefully sanitized today.

So the Bible contains fascinating stories that all can appreciate. Yes, some are edgy and sound dangerous, like the hints in the text about Sarah's fury with Ishmael, but even more confronting ideas than that can give some interesting insights into the text.

I would like to share some of these insights with people here, and see their reactions to what I have found. Of course, if that is not pleasing to you, please tell me, and I will leave.

I have not studied some of the things you have brought up in as much depth as you have either! Not that I am neglecting my studies just I would have to live to be 500 to cover it all in as much depth. The studies I have done have just been in different areas then the ones you mentioned here.

At any rate RoadWarrior is right in what she said...too many don't understand and think going through the motions makes them a Christian but as the Jesus says, by their fruits you will know them.

I was one of those types of Christians she mentions...I was Christian in name only for many years...very luke warm and without the depth of understanding. I certainly wasn't born again though I thought I was...:rolleyes: And like her I have changed and the things I did in my past I am truly ashamed of now. I have paid the consequences too for the things I did in the past also! I think because we have all traveled that darker road its easier for us to relate to many of the people in the bible and the stupid choices they made because at some time in our lives we have done the same thing. (not saying I am perfect now by any means!) but still compared to the past I am a totally different person.

Plus...I am sure you realize...some that might reply to you are new Christians and don't know the bible well because they simply haven't had time to do that much studying yet...and some are older Christians who have had the time so answers can vary greatly! Also many see any nonbeliever with suspicious..assuming they are here only to try to undermine the bible or our faith because, well frankly, it happens alot. The near constant attacks on our faith on the net (and the media), causes us to approach nonbelievers in a defensive way. It shouldn't be that way I know...but when you have been subjected to this year after year after year and constantly mocked its hard to feel trusting towards anyone that isn't a believer. We are told we are stupid, mindless sheep that can't think for ourselves and just believe whatever we are told in church or read in the bible, that the bible is nothing but make up fables with no proof any of its true (which alot of the bible has been proven actually outside of the bible)...that we are dangerous and might suddenly all decide God told us to go out and kill nonbelievers so we should be locked up or killed ourselves to prevent this from happening, that we are mentally ill and on and on and on!

The latest attack is our faith is a disease that we spread to people and everyone should avoid us AND its in our genes...some have this faith gene and some don't...:rolleyes: At any rate you better be careful hanging out with us cause you might 'catch' this...;) I also heard people can 'catch' fatness too! lol They did a study and those overweight tend to have overweight friends who all eat the same thing...go figure! :lol: (wonder how much government money went for that study! :cool:).

At any rate I enjoy your posts on here.

God bless