Nothing annoys an enemy as much as

[oscarkipling]

forgiving them.


of course that's a sort of cynical way of looking at forgiveness, but what i'd like to know is ; What are the conditions for forgiveness in the christian faith? That is in relation to God > humans, Humans > Humans. When should a Christian forgive another human being, and when shouldn't they?



on a side note maybe you could tell me a little bit about how you interpret judgment...that is, what is the christian definition (i've got a dictionary, so i'm looking for any specifically Christian bent on the subject)...also when is it okay for a christian to judge another person, and when is it not okay.


ALSO IF YOU ARE GOING TO DROP SOME VERSES ON ME PLEASE EXPLAIN THEM NO MATTER HOW OBVIOUS OR SELF EXPLANATORY YOU MAY BELIEVE THEY ARE.

[Tanya~]

forgiving them.

of course that's a sort of cynical way of looking at forgiveness,

Well actually, you're pretty much in line with what the Bible says.

Rom 12:17-21
Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20 Therefore

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
NKJV

but what i'd like to what are the conditions for forgiveness in the christian faith. That is in relation to God > humans, Humans > Humans. When should a Christian forgive another human being.

God>humans:
God has provided the means for forgiveness and reconciliation, through His Son Jesus Christ. By acknowledging our sin and repenting, and believing the gospel of Jesus Christ, we can receive forgiveness of sin

Humans>humans:
When another asks us for forgiveness, we are obligated to forgive them, because God has done this for us. Matthew 18 is all about this.


on a side note maybe you could tell me a little bit about how you interpret judgment...that is, what is the christian definition (i've got a dictionary so i'm looking fora specifically Christian bent on the subject)...also when is it okay for a christian to judge another person.

A Christian is not to judge those who are not fellow-Christians, but rather we are required to leave that to God. The body of Christians on the other hand, is required to judge others who claim to be Christian and wish to be considered part of the fellowship yet blatantly reject the commands of God. You can read about that in 1 Cor 5.

Judgment pretty much means the same thing the dictionary says it means.

[oscarkipling]

Well actually, you're pretty much in line with what the Bible says.

Rom 12:17-21
Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20 Therefore

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
NKJV



God>humans:
God has provided the means for forgiveness and reconciliation, through His Son Jesus Christ. By acknowledging our sin and repenting, and believing the gospel of Jesus Christ, we can receive forgiveness of sin

Humans>humans:
When another asks us for forgiveness, we are obligated to forgive them, because God has done this for us. Matthew 18 is all about this.




A Christian is not to judge those who are not fellow-Christians, but rather we are required to leave that to God. The body of Christians on the other hand, is required to judge others who claim to be Christian and wish to be considered part of the fellowship yet blatantly reject the commands of God. You can read about that in 1 Cor 5.

Judgment pretty much means the same thing the dictionary says it means.


thanks Tanya...one more thing, what exactly does judging another Christian entail?

[Tanya~]

You can read about it in 1 Cor 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%205;&version=50;).

[oscarkipling]

You can read about it in 1 Cor 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%205;&version=50;).


I did read it, I just didn't really understand it.

[dljc]

on a side note maybe you could tell me a little bit about how you interpret judgment...that is, what is the christian definition (i've got a dictionary, so i'm looking for any specifically Christian bent on the subject)...also when is it okay for a christian to judge another person, and when is it not okay.


ALSO IF YOU ARE GOING TO DROP SOME VERSES ON ME PLEASE EXPLAIN THEM NO MATTER HOW OBVIOUS OR SELF EXPLANATORY YOU MAY BELIEVE THEY ARE.I agree with what Tanya said on these questions. But wanted to look at what you are asking in the second half.

Matthew 7:15-23 Jesus tells us we will know them by their fruit.

What Jesus is telling us is give the person the benefit of the doubt, but observe the fruit or the lack thereof. If the fruit is from a corrupt tree, we are to remove this person from our midst. This goes along with what Tanya pointed to in 1 Corinthians 5. We don't want a wolf at the pulpit any more than we want a wolf in the congregation. We will know them both, by their fruit.

EDIT: 1 Cor 5 refers to spiritual pride. Meaning one who calls themselves a Christian, but willfully sins as though they have not been saved. In other words, the never left the world (the old man) behind.

We are encouraged to examine ourselves in the light of God's Word to see if we are in the faith. (2 Cor 13:5) If we rightly examine ourselves, this spiritual pride will not be there. And Church discipline will not be needed in our situation.

[Tanya~]

In 1 Cor 5 we read of a man who was part of the Corinthian church, who was "having a relationship" with his stepmother. The people in the church hadn't done anything about it, but rather were proud of their 'tolerance' apparently, so Paul wrote to them that they needed to put him out of the church because allowing immorality in the church will cause it to proliferate.

The good news is that in 2 Corinthians we learn that the man later repents, and is received back.

[oscarkipling]

well, thanks folks

[oscarkipling]

wait, so to be clear, judging as its used here means actually taking punitive action right? And there is no situation in which a person should not forgive another person right?

[dljc]

If we want forgiveness ourselves, we have to be willing to forgive others.

Matthew 6:14-15

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Even those that consider us the enemy.

[oscarkipling]

If we want forgiveness ourselves, we have to be willing to forgive others.

Matthew 6:14-15

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Even those that consider us the enemy.


so there is no situation in which a man should not forgive another man?

[Ayala]

You are correct. Regardless of the transgression, we are to forgive.

[oscarkipling]

You are correct. Regardless of the transgression, we are to forgive.

thank you JerAyala

[Tanya~]

wait, so to be clear, judging as its used here means actually taking punitive action right? And there is no situation in which a person should not forgive another person right?

The punitive action in the church is limited to excluding the person from fellowship. It means to treat them as an unbeliever, which doesn't mean they should be treated badly, but it does mean that they should not be considered part of the family of believers, because they are not acting as a member of the family of believers.

[oscarkipling]

The punitive action in the church is limited to excluding the person from fellowship. It means to treat them as an unbeliever, which doesn't mean they should be treated badly, but it does mean that they should not be considered part of the family of believers, because they are not acting as a member of the family of believers.

yes, I think I understand that. So does this mean that a person will be refused entry into the church though? Should Christians literally avoid being around them? or des it mean that christians should evagelize to them like a non believer? i'm sorry what does fellowship mean again? I don't think I ever really grasped it.

[Tanya~]

yes, I think I understand that. So does this mean that a person will be refused entry into the church though? Should Christians literally avoid being around them?

Here's what Paul wrote:

1 Cor 5:11
1 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner — not even to eat with such a person.
NKJV


So if a person claims to be a Christian but lives an immoral life, the believers are not to associate with them at all unless/until they repent.

or des it mean that christians should evagelize to them like a non believer?This is talking about someone who had already become a Christian, who had already been evangelized. They don't need to be re-evangelized, but they do need to repent. When they do that, they are restored back into the fellowship.

i'm sorry what does fellowship mean again? I don't think I ever really grasped it.This passage helps to convey the meaning:
2 Cor 6:14-16
Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
"I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people."
NKJV
The word "fellowship" is from the Greek koinonia, which refers to a partnership, close association, community, participation, oneness, a sharing together in common. There is no commonality between believers and unbelievers.

[oscarkipling]

Here's what Paul wrote:

1 Cor 5:11
1 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner — not even to eat with such a person.
NKJV


So if a person claims to be a Christian but lives an immoral life, the believers are not to associate with them at all unless/until they repent.

This is talking about someone who had already become a Christian, who had already been evangelized. They don't need to be re-evangelized, but they do need to repent. When they do that, they are restored back into the fellowship.

This passage helps to convey the meaning:2 Cor 6:14-16
Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
"I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people."
NKJV
The word "fellowship" is from the Greek koinonia, which refers to a partnership, close association, community, participation, oneness, a sharing together in common. There is no commonality between believers and unbelievers.

welp alright Tanya