Biblical Creationism

[thestarofthesea]

Okay, well I'll go onto the next thing. That is, I've never been a believer in Biblical creationism. I know the rules here say not to discuss or support theistic evolution so I won't except to say that I've always believed in evolution straight out scientifically but have sometimes thought God was behind it. There is so much evidence for evolution. Is there evidence for creationism aside from the Genesis account? Also, why would evolution seem to make sense if it's wrong? Third, can someone be a Christian and believe in evolution, either guided by God or not?

[Tanya~]

There is a lot of scientific support for Biblical creationism. There are a number of sites that have lots of information about this, for example:

http://www.icr.org/
http://answersingenesis.org/about

and a fun one that you might find intriguing: http://s8int.com/

[tango]

Okay, well I'll go onto the next thing. That is, I've never been a believer in Biblical creationism. I know the rules here say not to discuss or support theistic evolution so I won't except to say that I've always believed in evolution straight out scientifically but have sometimes thought God was behind it. There is so much evidence for evolution. Is there evidence for creationism aside from the Genesis account? Also, why would evolution seem to make sense if it's wrong? Third, can someone be a Christian and believe in evolution, either guided by God or not?

Firstly I don't see why someone can't be a Christian and believe in theistic evolution. That's about all I can say about TE without breaking the rules.

In terms of evidence for evolution, there are two different types of evolution.

Micro-evolution is effectively the adaptation of a species to cope with changes to its environment. The crucial aspect of this is that the changes are passed on through the generations, so watching my biceps enlarge as I lift weights doesn't count because that's not something my children would inherit from me.

Micro-evolution can be demonstrated in a laboratory, and the increasing numbers of so-called "superbugs" that plague hospitals also show that the organisms have developed a resistance, over time, to the antibiotics that once killed them.

Macro-evolution is the transformation of one species into another species. If you can demonstrate macro-evolution in a laboratory write to the Nobel prize committee :)

[apothanein kerdos]

Okay, well I'll go onto the next thing. That is, I've never been a believer in Biblical creationism. I know the rules here say not to discuss or support theistic evolution so I won't except to say that I've always believed in evolution straight out scientifically but have sometimes thought God was behind it. There is so much evidence for evolution. Is there evidence for creationism aside from the Genesis account? Also, why would evolution seem to make sense if it's wrong? Third, can someone be a Christian and believe in evolution, either guided by God or not?

There are theological aspects of Creationism that really have to be accepted for the rest of the Bible to stand. Some of those are that God created the world and guided it, that He made it fit according to His purpose and plan. The other aspect is that there was a literal Adam and a literal Eve and that both chose to sin against God (which means there also would have been a literal Garden).

I fail to see how a proper use of evolutionary theory would contradict these. The problem that most Christians and non-believers run into is they often confuse naturalism with evolution (because the two are often part of the same package). However, what in science shows that everything could have occurred on its own? Evolutionary theory only explains how - it shows the mechanism behind some changes (though at times it does seem a bit fanciful). Evolution doesn't explain why.

Finally, in defense of a literal interpretation of Genesis, science hasn't always been the best friends to humans. Often times - even since having the scientific method - we have been shown fools in what we thought was absolute scientific fact. Proof in this is that everyone taught the universe was eternal...until the Big Bang theory came out. The evidence was absolutely overwhelming that the universe had a beginning, and scientists fought this theory (and some still do because of its implications).

My point, however, is I wouldn't put too much stock in modern evolutionary science because it's based on empiricism, which has been shown to be a faulty philosophy. A faulty philosophy will always lead to a faulty scientific practice, so though science is very beneficial and right many times, it can also be drastically wrong.

As for evolution making sense yet being wrong - ask the ancient Romans and Greeks. Both cultures worshiped gods and attributed certain phenomena to the gods. It made perfect sense to them, even though it was wrong.

What is interesting - as a side note - is the Hebrews were the first culture to not only teach in a monotheistic God, but to teach that He had established a natural order to the world. When you saw lightening it wasn't Zeus throwing a lighting bolt, it was simply the movement of God's creation. In a way, the Hebrews were one of the first cultures to make an advancement in natural science by noting that there was a natural process to the world unguided by gods (but established by God). This, to me, should lend more credit to the Scriptures as being truth, as a non-theistic explanation for the world is just as implausible as a pluralistic explanation of the world.

[daughter]

When I first became Christian, I believed in theistic evolution. But the longer I read the Bible, the less it made sense to me... and when I started to actually examine the thinking behind evolution I found myself increasingly uncomfortable with it. I remember the exact moment when I believed the Bible literally in it's account of creation. I'd been arguing for theistic evolution, and an athiest (arguing for evolution also) brought up the dog as an example of evolution. Suddenly I realised that what we were describing was not evolution, but devolution. A dog is much weaker than a wolf, it's stomach acid, it's teeth, it's jaws, are all inferior to it's wild "ancestor." Every breed of dog out there is the result of a loss of information, not a gain.

The fact that evolution goes against the first and second law of thermodynamics is also a serious problem.

You can obviously be a Christian and believe in some form of evolution - but that doesn't mean that evolution is true. I am now quite convinced that it's a deliberate lie that has been planted to sow doubt in minds, so that we won't discover the truth.

[Sold Out]

Okay, well I'll go onto the next thing. That is, I've never been a believer in Biblical creationism. I know the rules here say not to discuss or support theistic evolution so I won't except to say that I've always believed in evolution straight out scientifically but have sometimes thought God was behind it. There is so much evidence for evolution. Is there evidence for creationism aside from the Genesis account? Also, why would evolution seem to make sense if it's wrong? Third, can someone be a Christian and believe in evolution, either guided by God or not?

Well, what you must first establish is whether or not the bible is true? If it's the infalllible Word of God, then the biblical account of creation MUST be true. God is either a liar or He's not. We either take it all on faith or none of it on faith. We can't have it both ways.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1

[ConservChrist]

Develution. Exactly.
Example:
you have two people, each with four genes. Gene A, B, C, D; E,F,G,H
They have one child, distributing half of their genes into the child. So the child ends up with genes C,D,G,H. And then they have another child with the genes A,D,E,H. Then these two childern have a child with genes C,D,A,E.

This could go on and on and you will begin to notice how certain geners become lost. If you notice here, genes B and F were lost and there is no way they will ever be brought back into the gene pool.
Heh, of course, however, Genes A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H represent many millions of different unedentical genes, which means, many millions of genes are lost each generation of each species born. Which, as daughter stated, is why dogs are less than they were; just as cats, fish, people, crocadiles, etc, etc.
And as stated above about micro and macro evolution. Macro evolution is absurd. To think one species can become another. However, micro evolution, or devolution should I say, is more believable and proven.
Also, the method for dating things, fossils, earth, rocks, etc, is false as well. A scientific experiment was performed, (sadly, as I know this won't stand with what I'm saying because I don't have any specific facts to back it up) Scientists, using the same dating method, attempted to date a pair of tennis shoes, knowing the age of them to begin with. The results? The shoes were supposed to be a few thousand years old. So if you get a pair of sneakers that are maybe 5 years old, and they are dated a few thousand, think of the mistakes made with rocks, or fossils that are maybe 5,000 or 8,000 years old. Of course, on a scale, it would make since that these things would be dated, millions or even billions of years old.
In all fact, according to the bible, this world is, at max, 10,000 years old.
Many many scientific facts have been proven by the bible, to later be proven by science. The bible said the world was round when people were still arguing it to be flat. Dinosaurs are also mentioned in the bible as large monsters with thunder quaking tails. Where are the dinos now? Who said there were a lot to begin with? Besides, species are going extinct all the time. Many are endangered.

[Esperanza32]

Third, can someone be a Christian and believe in evolution, either guided by God or not?

The answer to this question is YES.

All that is required to be a Christian is to believe in Jesus and trust him for our salvation. Most everything else (including how to interpret the Genesis creation account) faithful Christians may honestly disagree on.

I'll probably get thrown out of here if I say any more.

Jesus died for all of us--scientists included (praise God!)

[ServantofTruth]

Third, can someone be a Christian and believe in evolution, either guided by God or not?

Christians are not free to believe what they want. Rather free to submit to the revealed Word/ Wisdom of God in the bible.

2 Timothy 3:16 Everything in scripture is God's Word. All of it is useful for teaching and helping people and for correcting them and showing them how to live.

I read the whole bible, including Genesis, and try to recieve what God has revealed and try just as hard - not to go beyond what God has revealed. Which is just as important.

I generally get into arguement/ discussions when i am using only a few verses or have an upbringing/ teaching in one way of thinking, that i am yet to overcome.

My answer directly or perhaps indirectly? to your question 3, is i believe what God has revealed in Genesis, no more & no less. I believe God doesn't want me to know more or deny what is written there. I can't express it better than God or give it better 'titles.'

Sorry if this is not the kind of answer you are looking for, but often our Lord Jesus Christ gave people unexpected answers. SofTy.

[thestarofthesea]

I spoke to the head of my campus ministry today, both for reasons of reviewing my own concerns as well as learning about a multi-faith group she was establishing on campus, and she something pretty interesting to me. What she said was that she believed in an inclusive God. Her view is that every faith tradition has something to teach us and not to get hemmed in by rules and restrictions, but to seek God outside the rules. She said if someone followed a Muslim path, a Jewish path or a Christian path, it was basically irrelevant. It's the basic search for God, not the individual traditions, laws and dogma that matters. She was really strong against exclusive dogma. I haven't heard that view expressed very often, and never by a leader in ministry but I thought it was really interesting.

Anyway, I'm going to be meeting her regularly at her request and joining her campus group, so I'm feeling better about a lot of questions now that I have guidance from a church leader.

Macro-evolution is the transformation of one species into another species. If you can demonstrate macro-evolution in a laboratory write to the Nobel prize committee

:) That's what I've heard mostly as well. Some of the individuals I've read or had classes from have claimed that macro-evolution is real but I haven't seen any conclusive evidence about it. I support micro-evolution but my mind isn't made up on macro-evolution yet.

When I first became Christian, I believed in theistic evolution. But the longer I read the Bible, the less it made sense to me... and when I started to actually examine the thinking behind evolution I found myself increasingly uncomfortable with it. I remember the exact moment when I believed the Bible literally in it's account of creation. I'd been arguing for theistic evolution, and an athiest (arguing for evolution also) brought up the dog as an example of evolution. Suddenly I realised that what we were describing was not evolution, but devolution. A dog is much weaker than a wolf, it's stomach acid, it's teeth, it's jaws, are all inferior to it's wild "ancestor." Every breed of dog out there is the result of a loss of information, not a gain.

The fact that evolution goes against the first and second law of thermodynamics is also a serious problem.

You can obviously be a Christian and believe in some form of evolution - but that doesn't mean that evolution is true. I am now quite convinced that it's a deliberate lie that has been planted to sow doubt in minds, so that we won't discover the truth.

That is a really interesting point! I never thought about that before, ever. Very true last paragraph too! I've known Christians who have believed in things that seem really off the deep end. Well, to them it obviously seemed plausible and they were sincere, but it's true enough that people within the same churches even disagree on different things.

Well, what you must first establish is whether or not the bible is true? If it's the infalllible Word of God, then the biblical account of creation MUST be true. God is either a liar or He's not. We either take it all on faith or none of it on faith. We can't have it both ways.

I have a difficult time with this, because I am not convinced that the Bible is 'true' in that it was authored by God. Generally, it is my belief that human beings wrote the Bible. Whether it was written solely through human effort or divinely inspired is an unanswered question, in my view, and I'm also not sure whether the Bible was written as a genuine effort to acquaint people with God or whether it was written by ordinary people for a less benevolent agenda. There are a few reasons why I don't believe that the Bible is the accurate word of God. For one, the lack of scientific data or advanced knowledge of any kind. The Bible doesn't contain information that was beyond the comprehension or everyday knowledge of someone living in the time it was written. Yes, I'll admit I got that from Richard Dawkins. He totally convinced me on that point though. Secondly, I'm rather perplexed by the brutality and war-mongering. I don't mean to say I believe God must be weak, powerless and pacifist in order to please me, beause that's not it; just, the bloodlust and the violence seems like the worst traits of human-kind and I can't wrap my head around those human "evils" being part of God. This isn't so much a judgment of God as a judgment of me. I'd prefer a God that exemplified what I understand as goodness. I know it's wrong to hold God to my standard of morality, but I can't seem not to.

I don't think God is a liar, I'm just not convinced that the author of Genesis was God and not some human being working independently. And the way I see it, even if the Bible is authored by God and Genesis is 100% truth, that doesn't rule out evolution, does it? Does it say, Biblically, that things cannot advance and change?

[Tanya~]

I spoke to the head of my campus ministry today, both for reasons of reviewing my own concerns as well as learning about a multi-faith group she was establishing on campus, and she something pretty interesting to me. What she said was that she believed in an inclusive God. Her view is that every faith tradition has something to teach us and not to get hemmed in by rules and restrictions, but to seek God outside the rules. She said if someone followed a Muslim path, a Jewish path or a Christian path, it was basically irrelevant. It's the basic search for God, not the individual traditions, laws and dogma that matters. She was really strong against exclusive dogma. I haven't heard that view expressed very often, and never by a leader in ministry but I thought it was really interesting.

Inclusiveness might sound good but in actual practice, it is still exclusive. For example, the fact that she is "really strong against exclusive dogma" is hypocritical. If she were truly inclusive, then she would include even those exclusive positions. Islam is an exclusive religion. So is Christianity. By adhering to inclusiveness, you necessarily exclude Jesus because He said:

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

If universalism is true then Jesus was a liar.

[thestarofthesea]

Inclusiveness might sound good but in actual practice, it is still exclusive. For example, the fact that she is "really strong against exclusive dogma" is hypocritical. If she were truly inclusive, then she would include even those exclusive positions. Islam is an exclusive religion. So is Christianity.


Well, I think the line must be drawn somewhere. A group with the goal of inclusivism can have an open-door policy that allows even those with rigid, unyielding perspectives to come and share their views, but at some point a limit must be established, otherwise the exclusive viewpoint reigns. It's just like tolerance. If one wants to have a tolerant society, then there has to be some established point after which intolerance is not accepted. Like, in the U.S. we have an established policy of tolerance in the realm of free speech. You can say what you like whether or not it offends anyone else. However, there is a limit. You cannot use your free speech to verbally advocate violence or hate crimes. It's "intolerant" by limiting freedom, but without the line, no tolerance can exist. Within this multi-faith group, people are welcome whatever religion, whatever belief, whether they are conservative or liberal. They can come whether they are interested in converting faiths or converting others to their faith or just want to learn more about world religions. However, someone who wanted to join solely to preach at the members and was not interested in hearing other views would create an uncomfortable, unwelcoming atmosphere. To maintain inclusivism, we have to ask those people to cease, or leave.

[Tanya~]

I think this shows though, that the inclusivism is not truly inclusive. It is not possible. The religion of inclusivism only includes those who believe the same way, though they may adhere nominally to some specified religion. Inclusivism is also exclusive, it just excludes on a different basis than others do. That makes it a lie. The view of inclusivism says that everything is true except ... The view of exclusivism says that there is a certain thing that is true, there is one way, and the other ways are false and will lead people astray. They can't both be true.

[thestarofthesea]

I think this shows though, that the inclusivism is not truly inclusive. It is not possible.

Right. I think that is probably true. There have to be limits set on one's inclusivism and one's tolerance, otherwise those things become a hinderance to leading one's life and not the benefit they were intended to be. Total and utter inclusivism isn't possible.

The religion of inclusivism only includes those who believe the same way, though they may adhere nominally to some specified religion.I don't consider inclusivism a religion. I think since it's part of everyone's life in varying degrees, it's more a trait of social interaction than a faith in anything. I don't believe in inclusivism, thinking I or the world can be saved by it. I don't think it's the ultimate or a deity. Also, I think a Christian can be inclusivist in practice. A Christian can have Jewish, Muslim, Wiccan, atheist and Buddhist friends, and understand what each of them believes and welcome each of them into the friendship without having to adopt any or all of those faiths. A Christian can have gay friends, alcoholic friends and friends who struggle with other kinds of sins, and still love and accept these people as worthwhile without having to end up promiscuous, drunk and gay.

Inclusivism is also exclusive, it just excludes on a different basis than others do. That makes it a lie. The view of inclusivism says that everything is true except ...

I don't think that inclusivism means everything is true. How can it? Inclusivism means all are welcome to contribute, all have something valid to say that could be beneficial or useful for others, but just because we are willing to listen to different viewpoints doesn't mean we have to agree with all of them. If I spend some time reading, and read both Christopher Hitchens' "God is not Great" and the Bible in the same spirit of inclusivism, it means I am willing to take a look at both views, but it doesn't mean both the atheistic world view and the Christian world view are correct. I still have to make a personal decision as to what I believe, I'm just more informed about what someone else believes too.

Inclusivism does by it's nature exclude, and turn off, some people with exclusivist views. You're right that someone who has no interest in learning about other's views wouldn't be suited for an inclusivist group, whatever the subject.

The view of exclusivism says that there is a certain thing that is true, there is one way, and the other ways are false and will lead people astray. They can't both be true.That's true enough.

One thing that does perplex me about this issue is defining which, if any, of the "absolute truth" claims is accurate. Christianity has this kind of claim, saying that Jesus Christ is the sole means of salvation. But many other religions make an exclusivist claim too. How can we be sure which one is right? Would you suggest praying about it?

[VerticalReality]

One thing that does perplex me about this issue is defining which, if any, of the "absolute truth" claims is accurate. Christianity has this kind of claim, saying that Jesus Christ is the sole means of salvation. But many other religions make an exclusivist claim too. How can we be sure which one is right? Would you suggest praying about it?

I think the answer to that comes when we finally realize and accept the situation we are in. When we finally humble ourselves I believe truth is evident. What we can know of God is that He is perfect, holy, good and righteous. There is no wickedness in Him. In comparison, how do we measure up to that? If anyone is truly honest with themselves they will state that they are not perfect. They will state that they are not holy. They will state that they are not good. Goodness is not relative as many would like to believe. For example, you can take a glass of water that is pure and good without any defect. However, if you add the slightest bit of poison to it the water is no longer good. It doesn't even have portions of goodness. It is all bad. That is why the "good person" point of view does not float. A person cannot stand before a perfect and holy God declaring that they were a "good person" and should therefore be pardoned of their sin against God. That is an oxymoron. It's the same as the glass of water. If you have a little bit of poison it corrupts the entire thing. Even the slightest bit of sin kills us and separates us from God. It means we are all bad. We are not good.

So, if you are going to say that all folks of all religions can stand before God and be justified on that day of judgment then you are saying that what they believe is truth. Therefore, being that these religions believe that they can be justified before God based upon their own good works it is calling the grace of God and the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ a lie. Christianity acknowledges that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We acknowledge that we are not perfect. We acknowledge that we have fallen on the side of wickedness, and we are in need of salvation. We acknowledge that we cannot earn that salvation based upon any goodness in us or the works that we perform. We realize that we are in need of a Savior. That Savior came in the form of God Himself when He humbled Himself in the form of the man named Jesus Christ. It took the death and sacrifice of the one perfect Man to redeem those who had turned aside to their own way . . . a way of sin. And through the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead those who trust in Him and believe in Him will also be raised in like manner.

If we are not perfect, and we have fallen into a way of sin . . . then we are in need of One who will stand in the gap for us with God the Father and serve as our Mediator. This can only come from One who is perfect and holy just as God the Father. No other religion has this Mediator. There is only one name given under heaven among men by which we must be saved. That name is the Lord Jesus Christ.

If you can say now that you can stand before the Lord on the Day of Judgment and state that you are perfect and without flaw of any sort . . . then I suppose your works will be sufficient. However, if we are truly honest and humble ourselves to the fact that we are not without sin . . . then we can see clearly that Jesus Christ is our Savior. He is the only Savior that anyone will ever know. He is the spotless Lamb slain before the foundations of the earth. There will be no salvation in any other.

My works are not sufficient, but His works are. God would have us put our trust and faith in Him to save us. He has done so through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

All other religions are about the works of man and the goodness of man. Our Way is about His works and His goodness.

[thestarofthesea]

What we can know of God is that He is perfect, holy, good and righteous. There is no wickedness in Him.

But how do we know that, to start with?

I used to say, when I thought of myself as a Christian, that we can't judge God according to our own standards because we know so little. When people would ask me things like how I could believe in God, knowing full well that there is evil in the world, I would tell them the line about wickedness and sin being from the devil. And I believed that, I don't mean to cheapen it by calling it a line. However, now I think differently. I don't accept the notion that sin is Satan's fault and not God's, or our fault and not God's. A truly divine, all powerful God could not have created Satan by mistake or without prior knowedge of how Satan was going to end up. So, it leaves me wondering, is God truly good or is he at fault for allowing Satan and humans to bring sin into the world? The free will argument makes some sense here, I guess. Humans are free to choose sin or goodness. However, in society we say children who are too young to know that what they've done is wrong can't be punished the way adults can. Legally, if a child commts a crime we usually blame the parent for lack of supervision, or allowing the crime to take place. Doesn't it also make sense to say if humans are basically ignorant compared to the all-knowing God, it is God who must take responsibility for allowing Satan to introduce us to sin and letting us run amok sinfully?

If anyone is truly honest with themselves they will state that they are not perfect. They will state that they are not holy. They will state that they are not good. Goodness is not relative as many would like to believe. For example, you can take a glass of water that is pure and good without any defect. However, if you add the slightest bit of poison to it the water is no longer good. It doesn't even have portions of goodness. It is all bad. That is why the "good person" point of view does not float.I agree that humans are not perfect and I do think it's accurate to say we usually try to tell ourselves we're good as if we ought to get points for trying.

So, if you are going to say that all folks of all religions can stand before God and be justified on that day of judgment then you are saying that what they believe is truth. This isn't what I believe. I don't believe hundreds of separate and contradicting "truths" can all be true.

Therefore, being that these religions believe that they can be justified before God based upon their own good works it is calling the grace of God and the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ a lie. Are all other religions solely works-based? Do they all think salvation comes from works? This is an honest question, because I'm really not familiar enough with other belief systems to say with authority what they believe in.

[VerticalReality]

But how do we know that, to start with?

We turn to what God has revealed of Himself through His Word. If you ask, "How do we know it's His Word and the other religions cannot say the same thing," it is for many reasons. The Word of God revealed through the OT and NT is unique to any other religious text. It is not only unique from the point of view of how it speaks directly into a person's state of being, but it's the only text confirmed through prophecy.

I used to say, when I thought of myself as a Christian, that we can't judge God according to our own standards because we know so little. When people would ask me things like how I could believe in God, knowing full well that there is evil in the world, I would tell them the line about wickedness and sin being from the devil. And I believed that, I don't mean to cheapen it by calling it a line. However, now I think differently. I don't accept the notion that sin is Satan's fault and not God's, or our fault and not God's. A truly divine, all powerful God could not have created Satan by mistake or without prior knowedge of how Satan was going to end up. So, it leaves me wondering, is God truly good or is he at fault for allowing Satan and humans to bring sin into the world? The free will argument makes some sense here, I guess. Humans are free to choose sin or goodness. However, in society we say children who are too young to know that what they've done is wrong can't be punished the way adults can. Legally, if a child commts a crime we usually blame the parent for lack of supervision, or allowing the crime to take place. Doesn't it also make sense to say if humans are basically ignorant compared to the all-knowing God, it is God who must take responsibility for allowing Satan to introduce us to sin and letting us run amok sinfully?

My first question to you would be why do you now think differently about God? In other words, how do you know what God would or wouldn't do? This is something many people say about God. You will often hear people say, "I don't believe God is like that," or "I don't believe God would do that." However, God is a being. He is a person. He is real and He has a personality. We cannot apply what we think about God. We have to have God tell us about who He is. For example, what if I, not even knowing who you are, were to say that you feel that stealing from people is perfectly okay? How can I make that statement about you when I don't even know you? We cannot accurately apply what we "think" about who God is and what He would do. We have to turn to what He has revealed about Himself to us through His Word about who He is and what He has done. Otherwise, we may be attributing a false label to the Lord that is totally misrepresenting who He really is. If we respond by faith when He is calling He will reveal Himself to us.

I agree that humans are not perfect and I do think it's accurate to say we usually try to tell ourselves we're good as if we ought to get points for trying.

It's good that you see this. Now, if you then go and look at other religions who say that if you pray enough, or if you fast enough, or if you do this or that enough you can earn God's favor and forgiveness because of your goodness then you should see that these hold no truth in them. As the Word of God says, our righteousnesses are as filthy rags before God. Why? It is because we are not perfectly holy as He is.

This isn't what I believe. I don't believe hundreds of separate and contradicting "truths" can all be true.

I apologize. I should have worded that differently. I wasn't saying that you specifically believe that. I was using the term "you" in a very generalized sense referring to anyone who would believe that way.

Are all other religions solely works-based? Do they all think salvation comes from works? This is an honest question, because I'm really not familiar enough with other belief systems to say with authority what they believe in.

All the religions that I'm familiar with are indeed this way. Additionally, if God is perfect and He is holy, who is going to be able to stand before this holy God and be seen as righteous?

[ServantofTruth]

Anyway, I'm going to be meeting her regularly at her request and joining her campus group, so I'm feeling better about a lot of questions now that I have guidance from a church leader.

Have i misunderstood something. Is this lady a Christian? Or is she running some kind of multi faith meeting and using the word 'church'?

I read a book last year about a university somewhere in my country (possibly Birmingham?) where they had multi faith meetings/ worship. Each chapter was written by a member of each faith and why they were part of it.

Believe me i didn't buy this book, it was a present.

What became clear as i read each chapter, was that each individual had been of a different faith but had left it long ago. What upset me, especially when i came to the person claiming to be a Christian - was these people refused to admit they no longer held that faith and despite clearly denying their previous beliefs, went on using the title/ position they held in that faith and no doubt recieving the pay cheque!

If this lady is calling herself a Christian, but telling you all faiths are equal - you will learn little or nothing from her about Jesus Christ or Christianity. She is already lying to you/ denying the bible.

Christians must show love to all non believers. We do this by telling them the gospel/ good news of Jesus Christ. If they reject it, we continue to show love. But the message won't change!

The 'guidance of this church leader' will be like a blind person leading another blind person. Try reading a gospel - Matthew perhaps? - and see if what this lady is telling you matches what it says. If it doesn't - what can she teach you about Christ Jesus? SofTy.

[thestarofthesea]

We turn to what God has revealed of Himself through His Word. If you ask, "How do we know it's His Word and the other religions cannot say the same thing," it is for many reasons. The Word of God revealed through the OT and NT is unique to any other religious text. It is not only unique from the point of view of how it speaks directly into a person's state of being, but it's the only text confirmed through prophecy.

Can you elaborate on this a bit? What prophecies and what do you mean by "speaks directly into a person's state of being"?

My first question to you would be why do you now think differently about God? In other words, how do you know what God would or wouldn't do?

I don't know what God would or wouldn't do, nor do I claim to. I'm not even certain if I believe God exists. All I'm saying is that if we take the fact that there is sin, or at least bad, in the world, and we couple that with the existance of an all-knowing, all-powerful God, we can't logically conclude that sin is there in spite of God, or without his 'blessing' or acceptance. Either God has permitted sin, or God has not permitted it, it's here anywhere, ergo God wasn't able to stop it.

We have to have God tell us about who He is.

But how do we get to that point? The only way I've heard for a person to understand anything God whatsoever is to read the Bible, and if you believe the Bible was written by God and tells you conclusively about God, then that's fine. But what if you don't?

If we respond by faith when He is calling He will reveal Himself to us.


I used to believe this. I thought if I prayed enough, and asked repeatedly for faith, it would be given to me. But looking back, I don't honestly think that I ever believed in God. I think it was something that was so widely introduced and so common that I said I did and went through the motions, but I never believed wholeheartedly. I parroted. I imitated. I reacted through fear, thinking I'd better try harder or risk hell, but at no point did I believe. I don't value faith anymore, because "just believing" never seems to work and seems in fact dangerous.

Have i misunderstood something. Is this lady a Christian? Or is she running some kind of multi faith meeting and using the word 'church'?


No no, she is a Christian. Well, Roman Catholic, but she said during our talk that Protestant and Catholic are both Christian and the differences are mostly exaggerated, and that she considers herself a Christian. Her job at my university is leader of campus ministry. She gives talks and presentations, leads the on-campus Bible study and heads a campus ministry club. She also works with local area churches and gives presentations there. In addition to all that, she's starting this group. It's not meant to replace anybody's faith, it's meant to introduce interested students to world religions. The idea is that it will create awareness about what Muslim's believe, what Jewish people believe, etc. It's like a world religions class with field trips because she wants us to visit a bunch of different places like a Hamidi (sp?) mosque and a Native American ceremony. It's also part of the plan to visit lots of different churches of all denominations, from Baptist to Orthodox, etc. But there's no church or anything, it's just a group. You can be any religion or no religion and join and share and learn.

If this lady is calling herself a Christian, but telling you all faiths are equal - you will learn little or nothing from her about Jesus Christ or Christianity. She is already lying to you/ denying the bible.

Christians must show love to all non believers. We do this by telling them the gospel/ good news of Jesus Christ. If they reject it, we continue to show love. But the message won't change!

The 'guidance of this church leader' will be like a blind person leading another blind person. Try reading a gospel - Matthew perhaps? - and see if what this lady is telling you matches what it says. If it doesn't - what can she teach you about Christ Jesus? SofTy.

We spent most of this meeting talking about my religious background and where I currently stand, so there wasn't a chance for me to ask her opinions regarding the veracity of various religons. What she said about that, when we discussed this group, was that she was so excited to learn about all different religions because she believed everyone was seeking God. She also said a few statements about God being inclusive and everyone finding God, such as "all paths lead to God". However, I didn't ask her to elaborate on this. I might, next time, ask her whether she believes all religions are true and, if so, how this can be since dogmas often conflict. I'm not sure whether she thinks faith in Jesus is a crucial part of finding God or whether it's something else, like works.

[VerticalReality]

Can you elaborate on this a bit? What prophecies and what do you mean by "speaks directly into a person's state of being"?

Well, for example, we'll just look at the Scripture that I reference directly below my screen name . . . Isaiah 53. The prophet Isaiah was inspired to record this prophecy concerning the Messiah to come and the suffering that He would endure some 700 years before it ever came to pass. Jesus Christ fulfilled this prophecy. This is just one example of MANY. The OT is riddled with prophecies of the coming Messiah. The Lord Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of those prophecies. You will find no prophecy of the Mohammed of Islam or any other religious figure in any other text that ever came to pass. This is what I was speaking of with regards to the unique aspect of God's Word the Holy Bible. As for your last question, the Word of God speaks directly to the truth of our condition and what is needed to heal that situation. That we are born under a curse of sin and death that separates us from God the Father. That unless we are set free from this curse we will be subject to this world and the death that is in it. As the Word says . . . it is living and powerful sharper than any two-edged sword. I mean regardless of what I say is the origin you have already agreed with what I have stated regarding your condition. That truth that I have given you did not come from me. It came from that very Word. It is not me that says we are not good. In fact, if it were not for the revelation of God's Word I probably would have sat here several years ago and told you that I was a good person and there was nothing wrong with me. However, I can see from the truth of God's Word that is indeed not the case. It's is God's Word that revealed to me my condition and showed me that I was not as good as I thought I was.

I don't know what God would or wouldn't do, nor do I claim to. I'm not even certain if I believe God exists. All I'm saying is that if we take the fact that there is sin, or at least bad, in the world, and we couple that with the existance of an all-knowing, all-powerful God, we can't logically conclude that sin is there in spite of God, or without his 'blessing' or acceptance. Either God has permitted sin, or God has not permitted it, it's here anywhere, ergo God wasn't able to stop it.

I think it's clear that God has allowed it. If He wanted to stop it He very well could have. So I think then that the presence of sin, while not something that God likes, is something He can use to serve a greater purpose. Satan, for example, has been judged and he has been declared as our enemy. However, that doesn't mean that God can't or won't use Satan to serve a greater good.

But how do we get to that point? The only way I've heard for a person to understand anything God whatsoever is to read the Bible, and if you believe the Bible was written by God and tells you conclusively about God, then that's fine. But what if you don't?

The only way to receive understanding on God's Word is to have His Holy Spirit revealing its truth to you. If you do not have God's Spirit you will not have understanding. The truth of the matter is that God has already placed a knowledge of Himself in you. The question now is whether you will accept or suppress that knowledge . . .

I used to believe this. I thought if I prayed enough, and asked repeatedly for faith, it would be given to me. But looking back, I don't honestly think that I ever believed in God. I think it was something that was so widely introduced and so common that I said I did and went through the motions, but I never believed wholeheartedly. I parroted. I imitated. I reacted through fear, thinking I'd better try harder or risk hell, but at no point did I believe. I don't value faith anymore, because "just believing" never seems to work and seems in fact dangerous.

How do you know believing never works when you admit you never truly believed to begin with?

[ServantofTruth]

It can be very confusing for a none Christian sometimes to understand fully what a Christian is saying. I hope and pray that this lady is a solid bible believing Christian, believes there is 1 God - the trinity of Father, Son and Spirit. That all other gods are man made and created by satan to lead many astray.

There can be value in learning what other people believe and why - but if she crosses the line and suggests any other faith is valid, then she is denying the bible.

May i ask why you are learning about Christianity through a multi faith group - when even where you are physically or on line like here there are so many people who will willingly answer your questions.

I don't believe a solid Christian's first move with you, would be to say, 'Well there are many options, let's look at them all first!' At a multi faith group equal status/ respect will have to be given to each person's ideas - not something a Christian can do.

SofTy.

[tango]

One thing that does perplex me about this issue is defining which, if any, of the "absolute truth" claims is accurate. Christianity has this kind of claim, saying that Jesus Christ is the sole means of salvation. But many other religions make an exclusivist claim too. How can we be sure which one is right? Would you suggest praying about it?

One way you might start is by looking at the history of the Bible. For example, if you could find historical evidence that proved this person Jesus Christ never walked the earth at all, that's Christianity well and truly disproved.

If you're interested in things lining up, take a look through Old Testament prophecies that looked forward to Jesus. Isaiah had a few of them:

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

Which was fulfilled when Mary became pregnant

Luk 1:30 Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
Luk 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
Luk 1:33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."
Luk 1:34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.


So we can see that Isaiah prophesied the virgin birth hundreds of years before it happened. And it's not the sort of thing that happens every day, it's not something that's sufficiently vague that just about anything could match.

Isaiah also prophesied that Jesus would be punished for our sins:

Isa 53:4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.

Even when he was on the cross, one of the criminals beside him recognised that there was no reason for him to be there:

Luk 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."
Luk 23:40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."


I hope that these two prophecies alone will give you enough food for thought to encourage you to explore further.

[livingwaters]

The Word says that God created the world and everything in it...

Ephesians 3:9 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Ephesians+3:9&version=9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ

That should clear it up, right!!!!;)

[thestarofthesea]

I think it's clear that God has allowed it. If He wanted to stop it He very well could have. So I think then that the presence of sin, while not something that God likes, is something He can use to serve a greater purpose. Satan, for example, has been judged and he has been declared as our enemy. However, that doesn't mean that God can't or won't use Satan to serve a greater good.


Okay, but if God has allowed sin, why are we the ones who get punished for it? The whole idea of needing Jesus is because we are sinners. Are you saying God permits sin in order to give Jesus' crucifixion meaning?

How do you know believing never works when you admit you never truly believed to begin with?

I just don't think you can make yourself believe something without evidence. You can want to believe, you can seek understanding, you can pray for faith, but you can't just make up your mind to believe or not believe something.

May i ask why you are learning about Christianity through a multi faith group - when even where you are physically or on line like here there are so many people who will willingly answer your questions.

I don't believe a solid Christian's first move with you, would be to say, 'Well there are many options, let's look at them all first!' At a multi faith group equal status/ respect will have to be given to each person's ideas - not something a Christian can do.

Christianity isn't the only religion I'm interested in learning about. I'd like to have a better understanding of other major world faiths, for personal reasons and also because I think it'll be important to understanding world events. That's why I'm joining that group. I'm not using it as my main source for understanding Christianity, it's for learning about all religions.

That should clear it up, right!!!!;)

It would if I believed the Bible was true, yes.

[VerticalReality]

Okay, but if God has allowed sin, why are we the ones who get punished for it?

Allowing sin to take place and creating sin are two different things. God can indeed use sinful things for the greater good, but that doesn't mean He has forced the sin to take place. Look at Adam . . .

God allowed the situation to come about. However, He didn't force Adam to make the decision he did. We make those decisions.

The whole idea of needing Jesus is because we are sinners. Are you saying God permits sin in order to give Jesus' crucifixion meaning?

I don't think God "permits sin" as if it's something He wants to happen. I believe He is not going to force Himself upon us. We either choose to accept or reject Him. Sin is rooted simply in our rejection and rebellion against God and our lack of faith in Him. God does not force us to reject him. We do that on our own.

I just don't think you can make yourself believe something without evidence. You can want to believe, you can seek understanding, you can pray for faith, but you can't just make up your mind to believe or not believe something.

I believe the evidence is there. God has left us with a tremendous amount of evidence. Just look into all the prophecies of the OT that were prophecied hundreds of years beforehand that have come to pass. It's also of note that the Word has withstood hundreds of years of attacks only to still stand unchanged and unchallenged. Folks have been trying to find flaw in its truth for hundreds of years and haven't been able to do it.

Additionally, and this is something seriously lacking in the "church" today, but in Jesus' ministry here on earth and in the ministry of the early church and the apostles their preaching was confirmed by the power of God. People were healed of sickness and disease simply by using the name of Jesus. Blind eyes were opened and deaf ears unstopped by the name of Jesus. Demons were cast out of those who were oppressed by the devil. People were even raised from the dead. Our Lord still confirms His Word through these things. The only problem is that we are now in the last days, and faith in the Lord just isn't what it once was. You don't see near as many Christians filled with His Spirit being obedient and going about setting the captives free. It's not hard to believe the accuracy of the Word of God when you see the fruit of it manifest right before your very eyes. I'm sure with your background you understand that there are spiritual forces in this world. Only those who come in the name of Jesus Christ being filled with His Spirit have authority over these spiritual forces. It takes those who fully believe on the Lord to walk about in that sort of authority. You don't see that nearly as much today as you used to. That is a tremendous hinderance to the effectiveness of taking the gospel to all the nations. The Lord Jesus Christ instructed His disciples not to do anything or go anywhere until they were empowered by the Holy Spirit to do so. Today you have a lot of people trying to do things without the power of the Spirit to make them effective. This explains why a person such as yourself has been surrounded by church stuff her entire life yet you haven't witnessed the Living God moving and working amongst His people.