Spiritual Co-processing unit

[oscarkipling]

These are things as I understand them, so if it’s out of line with Christianity then tell me so.

Spriritual understanding is the end product of a Christian receiving and processing spiritual information. Spiritual information is infallible and is readily accessible to every Christian. Spiritual information is irretrievable and incomprehensible by natural means. The written word of God contains spiritual information that cannot be detected or processed by a non-believer. Spiritual information cannot be conveyed between a believer and a non-believer; any attempts will fail to retain the original data or logical integrity. Spiritual information cannot be received read processed or stored physically, the mechanism by which a Christian can receive and process spiritual information is a separate “spiritual mind” that is appropriated by or interfaced with by the believer upon believing....or I guess upon salvation is more appropriate.

So my questions are about the interface and the minds.

Is the spiritual mind local, or is it a single spiritual mind (server/mainframe) and Christians are the terminals?

How do these minds interface with each other?

What kind of information is shared between them?

Is the physical/natural mind a subset of the spiritual mind (I mean does the spiritual mind understand the physical world but not vice versa)?

[ServantofTruth]

The answer is simple - the mystery of the eternal God is revealed in the person of Jesus Christ. :) SofTy

We really can make things too differcult for ourselves sometimes - thank God for Jesus.

[dljc]

:lol: :rofl: I'm sorry Oscar, but that has to be the funniest analogy I think I've ever seen.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It boils down to being of a oneness of mind with Christ. (To be Christ like).

Doesn't the bold section of that passage seem to fit?

A computer analogy will not help you to understand. Only He can help you understand.

[Richard H]

Hi Oscar, :)
Rather than quoting, I did this:
These are things as I understand them, so if it’s out of line with Christianity then tell me so.

Spriritual understanding is the end product of a Christian receiving and processing spiritual information. Yes. (1 Cor 2:14)

Spiritual information is infallible and is readily accessible to every Christian. No. Only God is infallible. We see through a glass darkly. (1 Cor 13:12)
Plus many times He is apparently silent for reasons we may not readily perceive.

Spiritual information is irretrievable and incomprehensible by natural means. Yes. Unless the Holy Spirit is giving understanding to a person – as in: drawing them to the cross.

The written word of God contains spiritual information that cannot be detected or processed by a non-believer. Yes. One can become an expert in the study of Scripture, but it will never be living and active, unless one is born of the Spirit. The exception would be: the answer above – the cross.

Spiritual information cannot be conveyed between a believer and a non-believer; any attempts will fail to retain the original data or logical integrity. Same – except for the Holy Spirit.

Spiritual information cannot be received read processed or stored physically, the mechanism by which a Christian can receive and process spiritual information is a separate “spiritual mind” that is appropriated by or interfaced with by the believer upon believing....or I guess upon salvation is more appropriate.
‘Pushing the analogy a bit, Oscar J , but I’d say: Yes.
When one first believes – not a head knowledge – but really grasps the good news.
That while sin separates us from a HOLY God, and we’re powerless to become righteous enough to bridge that gap, Jesus has already created a bridge for us.
All we need to is accept that He did it for me and for YOU.

So my questions are about the interface and the minds.

Is the spiritual mind local, or is it a single spiritual mind (server/mainframe) and Christians are the terminals?

How do these minds interface with each other?

What kind of information is shared between them?

Is the physical/natural mind a subset of the spiritual mind (I mean does the spiritual mind understand the physical world but not vice versa)?

In this analogy, people are PCs.
When you allow him to open your case and clean out the dog hair and the cobwebs and the little spiders and all the dust.
He wipes your motherboard clean and you feel like a new computer on the inside.
He also places an additional processor on the motherboard.
‘One which is bridged to the CPU and having a direct broadband connection to a private network.
This is your human spirit – now given the ability to process spiritual information.
The Holy Spirit is the connection and the private network is the Heavenly realm.

God sometimes passes instructions via his network to different PCs.
These units process the information and produce a result without knowing of the other unit’s instructions.
Later, it is evident that this was actually distributed processing.
We do not have personal messaging between users. It’s not a network for that purpose.

The purpose of the network is to interface with all the orphans, so they will not become obsolete.
God loves them and desires that they interface with Him.

The physical world is a subset of the spiritual world. In the beginning… God!
This world will one day pass away, but GOD is forever.

The computer analogy is interesting, but until you have that special processor, you just can’t use HIS software.

BTW: It is up to us to keep out own cases and keys clean. And we can’t neglect the trackball either.

I look forward to your adding your username in God's permanent log file.
Richard

[Richard H]

God is not greedy, but He paid for all these PCs. Lucifer really has no receipt.
All a PC need do - is ask the provider for a cleaning and a connection.

It’s much better than Time-Warner. J

[oscarkipling]

:lol: :rofl: I'm sorry Oscar, but that has to be the funniest analogy I think I've ever seen.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It boils down to being of a oneness of mind with Christ. (To be Christ like).

Doesn't the bold section of that passage seem to fit?

A computer analogy will not help you to understand. Only He can help you understand.

foolishness eh? I don't know if it fits or not but that's why I'm here, to figure out if this Christianity business is foolishness. I'd like to know if you think the passage fits and why.

maybe God spoke to moses in a bush because moses understood shrubbery, he might speak to me in javascript....because I understand coffee.

[oscarkipling]

Hi Oscar, :)
Rather than quoting, I did this:
These are things as I understand them, so if it’s out of line with Christianity then tell me so.

Spriritual understanding is the end product of a Christian receiving and processing spiritual information. Yes. (1 Cor 2:14)

Spiritual information is infallible and is readily accessible to every Christian. No. Only God is infallible. We see through a glass darkly. (1 Cor 13:12)
Plus many times He is apparently silent for reasons we may not readily perceive.

Spiritual information is irretrievable and incomprehensible by natural means. Yes. Unless the Holy Spirit is giving understanding to a person – as in: drawing them to the cross.

The written word of God contains spiritual information that cannot be detected or processed by a non-believer. Yes. One can become an expert in the study of Scripture, but it will never be living and active, unless one is born of the Spirit. The exception would be: the answer above – the cross.

Spiritual information cannot be conveyed between a believer and a non-believer; any attempts will fail to retain the original data or logical integrity. Same – except for the Holy Spirit.

Spiritual information cannot be received read processed or stored physically, the mechanism by which a Christian can receive and process spiritual information is a separate “spiritual mind” that is appropriated by or interfaced with by the believer upon believing....or I guess upon salvation is more appropriate.
‘Pushing the analogy a bit, Oscar J , but I’d say: Yes.
When one first believes – not a head knowledge – but really grasps the good news.
That while sin separates us from a HOLY God, and we’re powerless to become righteous enough to bridge that gap, Jesus has already created a bridge for us.
All we need to is accept that He did it for me and for YOU.

So my questions are about the interface and the minds.

Is the spiritual mind local, or is it a single spiritual mind (server/mainframe) and Christians are the terminals?

How do these minds interface with each other?

What kind of information is shared between them?

Is the physical/natural mind a subset of the spiritual mind (I mean does the spiritual mind understand the physical world but not vice versa)?

In this analogy, people are PCs.
When you allow him to open your case and clean out the dog hair and the cobwebs and the little spiders and all the dust.
He wipes your motherboard clean and you feel like a new computer on the inside.
He also places an additional processor on the motherboard.
‘One which is bridged to the CPU and having a direct broadband connection to a private network.
This is your human spirit – now given the ability to process spiritual information.
The Holy Spirit is the connection and the private network is the Heavenly realm.

God sometimes passes instructions via his network to different PCs.
These units process the information and produce a result without knowing of the other unit’s instructions.
Later, it is evident that this was actually distributed processing.
We do not have personal messaging between users. It’s not a network for that purpose.

The purpose of the network is to interface with all the orphans, so they will not become obsolete.
God loves them and desires that they interface with Him.

The physical world is a subset of the spiritual world. In the beginning… God!
This world will one day pass away, but GOD is forever.

The computer analogy is interesting, but until you have that special processor, you just can’t use HIS software.

BTW: It is up to us to keep out own cases and keys clean. And we can’t neglect the trackball either.

I look forward to your adding your username in God's permanent log file.
Richard

sweet! thanks Richard. i'm glad ou went with the analogy...its a little goofy yes, but I did actually think about it and i'm glad that you did too.

you should ask God to upgrade you to an optical mouse.

[Richard H]

sweet! thanks Richard. i'm glad ou went with the analogy...its a little goofy yes, but I did actually think about it and i'm glad that you did too.

you should ask God to upgrade you to an optical mouse.

L.O.L.
I had to go with the trackball idea, because like the old mouse ball it could get clogged. Actually I use a touchpad on my laptop.
(not one of those tiny laptops - so don't feel sorry for me.) :rolleyes:

I'm glad you enjoyed it. 'Hope it helped explain a few things.

[dljc]

foolishness eh? I don't know if it fits or not but that's why I'm here, to figure out if this Christianity business is foolishness. I'd like to know if you think the passage fits and why.

maybe God spoke to moses in a bush because moses understood shrubbery, he might speak to me in javascript....because I understand coffee.Oscar, I do apologize if laughing at your analogy offended you in any way. I'll explain why it was as funny to me as it was.

I'm a computer tech and computers play a big part in my life, not only to participate on this board, but many other ways as well. I'm glad Richard could explain things to you. But here's why it was funny (to me).

The computer didn't just magically appear, or evolve from a bunch of electronic component's lying on a table. Although it has evolved into what it is today from say a Commodore 64, BUT..."Man" created the computer therefore it has a creator. The computer doesn't rebel against it's creator because it can only process what the user puts into it. (The old "garbage in garbage out" idea). Which in itself has it's own creator through programs and what not.

Enter the user of the computer (the end user). Even the user can wipe the hard drive and start all over again because perhaps they are the owner of said computer. What the computer is used for is up to the end user, unless it's a business computer, then that computer does not belong to that person.

The only rebellion you get from the computer is not rebellion, but the fact the user has made a mistake and the computer doesn't know what to do with that command. So it asks for clarification of that command. (From the Lost in Space series "That doe not compute"). There is also the possibility of poorly written programs that come into play here, but lets not get into all of the aspects of a computer. ;)

Jesus said to Nicodemus "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" (John 3:12) Jesus is pointing to mans understanding of spiritual things here as well. Which is what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 2:14 previously quoted. But Jesus said prior to this comment in John 3,

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Unlike the computer that really doesn't rebel against it's creator or even the end user. You on the other hand have a natural rebellion against God, because the flesh is at enmity with God. You inherited from your parents and all through your family tree.

So you see, at the rate computers have progressed since the IBM XT 8088. The corruption of the computer itself and it's components would be exponential and each computer today would have that natural rebellion against the creator and the end user. And every computer today would have this. But again the end user (or the owner) can wipe the hard drive and start all over again at any time. In other words, the computer is just a machine, you are not. The computer can be a robot, you do not want to be. The computer can't want anything.

So is the end user or owner of that computer God? Or is the creator of the computer God? How many times have you gone to the bathroom and when you got back to your computer you found that your computer was talking to another computer about whether they have a creator or not? (i.e. did we evolve or were we created?)

The computer can only do what the user tells it to do, you on the other hand have a choice whether you want to do this or that. So to compare us with a computer is comparing apples and oranges. Because you have many creators of the hardware and software in the computer in question. There are just way too many variables for this to be an easy question to answer. We should have stuck with DOS, you could only run one program at a time. :lol:

Now for your enjoyment take a look at these two pages.

http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs13/f/2007/077/2/e/Animator_vs__Animation_by_alanbecker.swf (http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs13/f/2007/077/2/e/Animator_vs__Animation_by_alanbecker.swf)

http://alanbecker.deviantart.com/art/Animator-vs-Animation-II-50891749 (http://alanbecker.deviantart.com/art/Animator-vs-Animation-II-50891749)

This may help you to understand what I'm saying. :) (These are clean and have been posted in the Anything Goes forum with a description). It helps if you watch the first link first.

[oscarkipling]

Oscar, I do apologize if laughing at your analogy offended you in any way. I'll explain why it was as funny to me as it was.

I'm a computer tech and computers play a big part in my life, not only to participate on this board, but many other ways as well. I'm glad Richard could explain things to you. But here's why it was funny (to me).

The computer didn't just magically appear, or evolve from a bunch of electronic component's lying on a table. Although it has evolved into what it is today from say a Commodore 64, BUT..."Man" created the computer therefore it has a creator. The computer doesn't rebel against it's creator because it can only process what the user puts into it. (The old "garbage in garbage out" idea). Which in itself has it's own creator through programs and what not.

Enter the user of the computer (the end user). Even the user can wipe the hard drive and start all over again because perhaps they are the owner of said computer. What the computer is used for is up to the end user, unless it's a business computer, then that computer does not belong to that person.

The only rebellion you get from the computer is not rebellion, but the fact the user has made a mistake and the computer doesn't know what to do with that command. So it asks for clarification of that command. (From the Lost in Space series "That doe not compute"). There is also the possibility of poorly written programs that come into play here, but lets not get into all of the aspects of a computer. ;)

Jesus said to Nicodemus "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" (John 3:12) Jesus is pointing to mans understanding of spiritual things here as well. Which is what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 2:14 previously quoted. But Jesus said prior to this comment in John 3,

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Unlike the computer that really doesn't rebel against it's creator or even the end user. You on the other hand have a natural rebellion against God, because the flesh is at enmity with God. You inherited from your parents and all through your family tree.

So you see, at the rate computers have progressed since the IBM XT 8088. The corruption of the computer itself and it's components would be exponential and each computer today would have that natural rebellion against the creator and the end user. And every computer today would have this. But again the end user (or the owner) can wipe the hard drive and start all over again at any time. In other words, the computer is just a machine, you are not. The computer can be a robot, you do not want to be. The computer can't want anything.

So is the end user or owner of that computer God? Or is the creator of the computer God? How many times have you gone to the bathroom and when you got back to your computer you found that your computer was talking to another computer about whether they have a creator or not? (i.e. did we evolve or were we created?)

The computer can only do what the user tells it to do, you on the other hand have a choice whether you want to do this or that. So to compare us with a computer is comparing apples and oranges. Because you have many creators of the hardware and software in the computer in question. There are just way too many variables for this to be an easy question to answer. We should have stuck with DOS, you could only run one program at a time. :lol:

Now for your enjoyment take a look at these two pages.

http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs13/f/2007/077/2/e/Animator_vs__Animation_by_alanbecker.swf (http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs13/f/2007/077/2/e/Animator_vs__Animation_by_alanbecker.swf)

http://alanbecker.deviantart.com/art/Animator-vs-Animation-II-50891749 (http://alanbecker.deviantart.com/art/Animator-vs-Animation-II-50891749)

This may help you to understand what I'm saying. :) (These are clean and have been posted in the Anything Goes forum with a description). It helps if you watch the first link first.


haha yeah I was mad at first, I even called you a limey goatsucker and a flibbertigibbet, but I edited those opprobrious slurs because I realized moments later that you are actually scholar and a gentleman;). Anyhow, yes I understand what you are saying, I never meant to imply that people were actually computers, I don't know what people are actually. I just feel that you can consider some facet of human beings using some precepts of computer science. Some behaviors appear to be analogous and so I figured one might help me to understand something about the other. I guess I could have used different terminology, but the logic of the questions would have been the same. Anyway I have a few of questions for you about your personal experience and perceptions.


Do you spiritually understand spiritual understanding?

Are you consciously able to (think) with your spirit bits?

If so can you simultaneously think spiritually while approximating pi to 50 decimal places with your natural mind?

just kidding, but can you consciously and simultaneous do things with both minds?

Do you find that there are concepts that you understand spiritually that your natural mind cannot comprehend or represent in any fashion?



also thanks for that animation, I remember seeing it before and thinking it was neat, but I never really thought about it from any sort of philosophical perspective, it's pretty wild when you think about it.:hmm:

[dljc]

haha yeah I was mad at first, I even called you a limey goatsucker and a flibbertigibbet, but I edited those opprobrious slurs because I realized moments later that you are actually scholar and a gentleman;). Anyhow, yes I understand what you are saying, I never meant to imply that people were actually computers, I don't know what people are actually. I just feel that you can consider some facet of human beings using some precepts of computer science. Some behaviors appear to be analogous and so I figured one might help me to understand something about the other. I guess I could have used different terminology, but the logic of the questions would have been the same. Anyway I have a few of questions for you about your personal experience and perceptions.Oscar, I'm glad that you understand it wasn't anything personal towards you. And even if you just thought those things, I forgive you not because I "have to" but because I know you didn't mean them. :hug:

And I understand what you are saying too. It's a difficult thing to wrap your mind around. That's why only through Him, can it be done. We don't even understand completely everything about the world we live in, how could we possibly understand heavenly things without His help? That's why those verses from John 3 are important.
Do you spiritually understand spiritual understanding?

Are you consciously able to (think) with your spirit bits?

If so can you simultaneously think spiritually while approximating pi to 50 decimal places with your natural mind?

just kidding, but can you consciously and simultaneous do things with both minds?

Do you find that there are concepts that you understand spiritually that your natural mind cannot comprehend or represent in any fashion? I think the best way to answer these questions is this. I am continually looking for ways to answer questions like yours. Both from a spiritual aspect, but to translate them into terms you can understand. One of the things I have seen from Jesus' teachings is that He asked people questions that made them think about the situation. I like to do that too. But like Paul, I like to use everyday things that can get the message across. To better help you understand. The one thing I have found is that there is an absolute Truth. Your point of view nor mine changes this Truth, it remains the same no matter what you might think or I might think. Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. Hebrews 13:8 You and I can change, but the Truth remains the same. And that Truth is, we won't know everything there is to know about this world, in the short amount of time we are here. God on the other hand, being the Creator knows everything about it. How He made this and that, how He flooded the earth, how He stopped the sun, how He made a donkey speak. The whole nine yards, He knows. You and I can only know a fragment in time. But eternity is forever. Where you go is up to you.
also thanks for that animation, I remember seeing it before and thinking it was neat, but I never really thought about it from any sort of philosophical perspective, it's pretty wild when you think about it.:hmm:No problem, and this is another example of how I view things. I look at them for more than what the average viewer sees. I'm like you in this respect, I am a deep thinker. That's why I asked you how long you've been studying psychology. IMHO psychology and philosophy can go hand in hand. From the one angle you are looking at the person who believes what they believe. From the other angle, you are trying to understand why they see what they see and believe what they believe. That's what you're doing here right?

Almost anything can have a philosophical meaning, why someone believes it or sees it that way, deals with the mind as well. The animation linked above can be seen as the age old struggle of man wanting to control his domain, in other words, to be his own god. It can also be seen as the stick man was satan. Look at the ball and chain on his leg at the end. ;)

[DaniHansen]

Do you spiritually understand spiritual understanding?

Yes. And then it travels over to my "other" mind (which is in my soul) and sets itself in there, too.

Are you consciously able to (think) with your spirit bits?
Bits? LOL. Yes. Although it's communication more so than thinking. Our spirits, once regenerated, go by knowing, not thinking.

If so can you simultaneously think spiritually while approximating pi to 50 decimal places with your natural mind?

Yes, and no.
Yes, I can do spiritual things while at the same time think about something entirely different. Because, again, I don't really think with my spirit, but communicate with God via it (bad grammar, sorry).
I also could never ever approximate ... pi ... how many places? Not ever. :)

just kidding, but can you consciously and simultaneous do things with both minds?
I can simultaneously operate with my spirit, and use my mind to think about something different entirely.

I.e. I can pray for a person within my spirit, and have a discussion with God about them, and listen to His response, while I hold a conversation with that person, and listen to their issues, etc. all at once. :)

Do you find that there are concepts that you understand spiritually that your natural mind cannot comprehend or represent in any fashion?
Yes. Usually God will speak something into my spirit, which "gets it" instantly, and then my mind has to take a while to absorb it and think it through, and catch up and gain understanding ... there are times it's even almost impossible to put something that I understand perfectly well spiritually, into an outwardly coherent manner that another person would understand, unless they pick it up with their spirit.

Are you beginning to get a feeling that there be aliens among you?

Best put on that tinfoil hat ... :D

[oscarkipling]

Oscar, I'm glad that you understand it wasn't anything personal towards you. And even if you just thought those things, I forgive you not because I "have to" but because I know you didn't mean them. :hug:

And I understand what you are saying too. It's a difficult thing to wrap your mind around. That's why only through Him, can it be done. We don't even understand completely everything about the world we live in, how could we possibly understand heavenly things without His help? That's why those verses from John 3 are important.


I think the best way to answer these questions is this. I am continually looking for ways to answer questions like yours. Both from a spiritual aspect, but to translate them into terms you can understand. One of the things I have seen from Jesus' teachings is that He asked people questions that made them think about the situation. I like to do that too. But like Paul, I like to use everyday things that can get the message across. To better help you understand. The one thing I have found is that there is an absolute Truth. Your point of view nor mine changes this Truth, it remains the same no matter what you might think or I might think. Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. Hebrews 13:8 You and I can change, but the Truth remains the same. And that Truth is, we won't know everything there is to know about this world, in the short amount of time we are here. God on the other hand, being the Creator knows everything about it. How He made this and that, how He flooded the earth, how He stopped the sun, how He made a donkey speak. The whole nine yards, He knows. You and I can only know a fragment in time. But eternity is forever. Where you go is up to you.


uh huh, So are you saying that you have no way of answering my questions in a more direct fashion?


No problem, and this is another example of how I view things. I look at them for more than what the average viewer sees. I'm like you in this respect, I am a deep thinker. That's why I asked you how long you've been studying psychology. IMHO psychology and philosophy can go hand in hand. From the one angle you are looking at the person who believes what they believe. From the other angle, you are trying to understand why they see what they see and believe what they believe. That's what you're doing here right?


sure.

why do you answer unbelievers questions here?

what do you hope to accomplish and how?


Almost anything can have a philosophical meaning, why someone believes it or sees it that way, deals with the mind as well. The animation linked above can be seen as the age old struggle of man wanting to control his domain, in other words, to be his own god. It can also be seen as the stick man was satan. Look at the ball and chain on his leg at the end. ;)

yes, its fascinating.

[oscarkipling]

Yes. And then it travels over to my "other" mind (which is in my soul) and sets itself in there, too.


hmm do you think you could draw me a diagram, or a flow chart with ms paint or something?


Bits? LOL. Yes. Although it's communication more so than thinking. Our spirits, once regenerated, go by knowing, not thinking.


haha yes bits, I was using it in the English way not the computer science way. knowing not thinking, I see.


Yes, and no.
Yes, I can do spiritual things while at the same time think about something entirely different. Because, again, I don't really think with my spirit, but communicate with God via it (bad grammar, sorry).
I also could never ever approximate ... pi ... how many places? Not ever. :)

I can simultaneously operate with my spirit, and use my mind to think about something different entirely.
I.e. I can pray for a person within my spirit, and have a discussion with God about them, and listen to His response, while I hold a conversation with that person, and listen to their issues, etc. all at once. :)


lol, I prefer pie myself, banana creme. So in your opinion the spirit is an interface between the natural mind and the mind of God?





Yes. Usually God will speak something into my spirit, which "gets it" instantly, and then my mind has to take a while to absorb it and think it through, and catch up and gain understanding ... there are times it's even almost impossible to put something that I understand perfectly well spiritually, into an outwardly coherent manner that another person would understand, unless they pick it up with their spirit.


so not all spiritual information incomprehensible by a natural mind, just some of it. Would it be fair to say that the naturally incomprehensible information isn't something that you understand but something that you believe?


Are you beginning to get a feeling that there be aliens among you?

Best put on that tinfoil hat ... :D

lol, not yet...2012 is still a few years away *creepy theremin music plays*

[Richard H]

I’d like to hear Dani’s take as she’s done a really good job of putting all this into words. 'A tough thing to do.

So in your opinion the spirit is an interface between the natural mind and the mind of God?

Yes. Although the spirit also interfaces with the heart – the innermost being where intent is formed.
The quickened human spirit interfaces with the Holy Spirit bringing us what God has for us to know or do or even feel.

so not all spiritual information incomprehensible by a natural mind, just some of it.

Hmmm… I think Dani was speaking of two Christians “listening” to God. Sort of that distributed processing.
‘That right Dani?

Would it be fair to say that the naturally incomprehensible information isn't something that you understand but something that you believe?

No.
First, belief or acceptance (as one would believe that God exists) is head knowledge or even heart knowledge, but not spiritual knowledge.
Faith may start out as an effort – even a choice to trust, but over time it become more a way of being.
Spiritual information is beyond that. It is more like a knowing which permeates the heart.

When I first asked Jesus to be my Lord, I accepted that God may be real and the (if so) Jesus was how I came to Him. I was agnostic.
I made the choice to make Him my savior and the Lord of my life with my heart.
My mind had barely caught up with what I was doing, but my heart trusted Him.
He quickened my human spirit and my heart and mind instantly knew that God was real and that Jesus was the way to the Father.

It went FROM: “If…. <insert effort here>”
TO: “Of course,… <insert knowing here>”.

Why do we answer your questions?
We care about you and want you to know and understand the truth – ultimately, the only thing that matters.

Richard

[Richard H]

Oscar,
“Spiritual information” is not just knowledge or communication from God,
but it is also that which also can flow through us:
love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
(Gal 5)

[oscarkipling]

I’d like to hear Dani’s take as she’s done a really good job of putting all this into words. 'A tough thing to do.

So in your opinion the spirit is an interface between the natural mind and the mind of God?

Yes. Although the spirit also interfaces with the heart – the innermost being where intent is formed.
The quickened human spirit interfaces with the Holy Spirit bringing us what God has for us to know or do or even feel.

so not all spiritual information incomprehensible by a natural mind, just some of it.

Hmmm… I think Dani was speaking of two Christians “listening” to God. Sort of that distributed processing.
‘That right Dani?

Would it be fair to say that the naturally incomprehensible information isn't something that you understand but something that you believe?

No.
First, belief or acceptance (as one would believe that God exists) is head knowledge or even heart knowledge, but not spiritual knowledge.
Faith may start out as an effort – even a choice to trust, but over time it become more a way of being.
Spiritual information is beyond that. It is more like a knowing which permeates the heart.

When I first asked Jesus to be my Lord, I accepted that God may be real and the (if so) Jesus was how I came to Him. I was agnostic.
I made the choice to make Him my savior and the Lord of my life with my heart.
My mind had barely caught up with what I was doing, but my heart trusted Him.
He quickened my human spirit and my heart and mind instantly knew that God was real and that Jesus was the way to the Father.

It went FROM: “If…. <insert effort here>”
TO: “Of course,… <insert knowing here>”.


wow this post introduced a heart into the mix, I know you don't literally mean that muscle pumping all that sanguine life juice through our bodies...but some other part, a feeling part, I get it its all very synergistic and mysterious. So do you think that the heart has a physical basis or does it belong in the realm of the spirit?


Why do we answer your questions?
We care about you and want you to know and understand the truth – ultimately, the only thing that matters.

Richard

good to know, but i was interested in dljc's answer because It seems that he might think that i cant understand his answers..or something .idk

[oscarkipling]

Would it be fair to say that the naturally incomprehensible information isn't something that you understand but something that you believe?

No.
First, belief or acceptance (as one would believe that God exists) is head knowledge or even heart knowledge, but not spiritual knowledge.
Faith may start out as an effort – even a choice to trust, but over time it become more a way of being.
Spiritual information is beyond that. It is more like a knowing which permeates the heart.

Richard


I think it would have been more accurate for me to ask: Is spiritual understanding a way for us to know things to be true without the need for these things to be logically coherent?

hear me out, if the mind cannot understand what the spirit knows to be true, then what the mind does understand is that the spirit knows something. In those special cases of naturally incomprehensible information the spirit does not explain why it knows what it knows to be true to the natural mind, it tells the natural mind that what it knows is true. The natural mind cannot comprehend why, beyond God's will, but you don't need the spirit to know that in order to believe or understand that concept any more than I do. If the spirit mind can only know, then what more does it offer than reassurance in that department? I guess what throws me off is the term spiritual understanding, it implies comprehension. In practice it appears to me that there is no additional comprehension, nor an additional type of information that cannot be naturally apprehended... spiritual understanding appears to be confirmation, not cognition. or somethin

[Richard H]

Hi Oscar,
The heart is somewhat synergistic and mysterious.
When I was a fairly newborn Christian, I recognized it as something worth contemplating.
Here’s a compilation of some thoughts.

It's not ironic that a discusion of this sort of allegory would also address the heart, the very kernal of our being.

Everyone has a heart it is our inner-most being – our center.
‘How we view ourselves in relation to others and how we view others as they relate to us and also to more others.
This perception spawns motives and intent which manifests in the full range of emotions and desires.
It is that which causes us to speak before thinking – the initial thought impulses.
It can be gladdened or made hardened with stubborn pride.
The heart can nag us and we perceive it as conscience.
It is usually the first receptacle for spiritual information – even before the mind.
It brings wisdom into the mind or further darkness.

Just a few Scriptures:

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
Gen 6:5,6

Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, "Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?"
Gen 17:17

"But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.
Deu 4:29

"Otherwise, you may say in your heart, 'My power and the strength of my hand made me this wealth.'
Deu 8:17

He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness, And speaks truth in his heart.
Psa 15:2

"The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.
Luk 6:45

My son, if your heart is wise, My own heart also will be glad;
And my inmost being will rejoice When your lips speak what is right.
Pro 23:15,6

Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;
Pro 24:17

Anxiety in a man's heart weighs it down, But a good word makes it glad.
Pro 12:25

"Who has put wisdom in the innermost being Or given understanding to the mind?
Job 38:36

Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being, And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.
Psa 51:6

The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the innermost parts of his being.
Pro 20:27

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Joh 7:38,39

[oscarkipling]

Oscar,
“Spiritual information” is not just knowledge or communication from God,
but it is also that which also can flow through us:
love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
(Gal 5)

alright, thanks

[oscarkipling]

Hi Oscar,
The heart is somewhat synergistic and mysterious.
When I was a fairly newborn Christian, I recognized it as something worth contemplating.
Here’s a compilation of some thoughts.

It's not ironic that a discusion of this sort of allegory would also address the heart, the very kernal of our being.

Everyone has a heart it is our inner-most being – our center.
‘How we view ourselves in relation to others and how we view others as they relate to us and also to more others.
This perception spawns motives and intent which manifests in the full range of emotions and desires.
It is that which causes us to speak before thinking – the initial thought impulses.
It can be gladdened or made hardened with stubborn pride.
The heart can nag us and we perceive it as conscience.
It is usually the first receptacle for spiritual information – even before the mind.
It brings wisdom into the mind or further darkness.

Just a few Scriptures:

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
Gen 6:5,6

Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, "Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?"
Gen 17:17

"But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.
Deu 4:29

"Otherwise, you may say in your heart, 'My power and the strength of my hand made me this wealth.'
Deu 8:17

He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness, And speaks truth in his heart.
Psa 15:2

"The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.
Luk 6:45

My son, if your heart is wise, My own heart also will be glad;
And my inmost being will rejoice When your lips speak what is right.
Pro 23:15,6

Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;
Pro 24:17

Anxiety in a man's heart weighs it down, But a good word makes it glad.
Pro 12:25

"Who has put wisdom in the innermost being Or given understanding to the mind?
Job 38:36

Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being, And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.
Psa 51:6

The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the innermost parts of his being.
Pro 20:27

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Joh 7:38,39

okay, i'll give these things some thought, thanks

[Richard H]

Hi Oscar, :)
You have a probing mind – asking some deep questions. Things which even pertain to: “hearing” the voice of God.
I’m no expert on the topic, but I will do the best that I can.

In a way you’re asking for spiritual meat (Heb 5:12-14) without having the molars to properly ingest this information.
You may understand the “concepts” as best we can explain them, but you cannot experience any of it without the Holy Spirit, and you cannot gain the Holy Spirit without Jesus.

Some people have heard an audible voice a time or two. Others (like me), have heard an exterior voice without sound, but being exact in words and distinct in tone and emphatic intent (the heart of God). I have not heard that again in over 25 years. Instances like these are sometimes what it takes for God to get through to a person.
Usually this would be a corrective rebuke about sin. (the case with me)
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Rev 3:19

The optimal way of hearing God is by being sensitive enough to His will, that gentle leadings and quiet whispers are enough.

One way we can know and recognize His will, is by knowing and understanding His Word. Unlike other books which can be read once or twice to GET the book.
The Bible continually reveals God’s: nature, heart, intent, motives, plan, will, righteousness, holiness, justness, love, patience, mercy,… I could go on and on.

By knowing His Word, He will sometimes merely bring an applicable verse or two to mind. Sometimes it’s a familiar verse with a new understanding. In my experience it is an “abnormally” quick recall without effort on my part.

Most of the time, God’s voice is indistinguishable from our own, but in knowing the will of God, we should not need direct instruction.
Mostly “Spiritual information” is a very quite voice – requiring sensitivity and listening.

There are other ways to gain spiritual information like literal object lessons. Like a bug crawling on a leaf or a limping dog.
We can sometimes interpret meaning from seemingly every day occurrences.
And then there are dreams and such, but interpretation is not always so easy and sometimes we really may read things in which are not.

It’s all a process of becoming sensitive to God and leaning not on our own understanding.
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
Pro 3:5-7
Mostly, we must continually seek Him and trust Him – not always knowing where we are going (in this life) or what we are to do.


On a few rare occasions I’ve had a word of knowledge and on occasion a word of wisdom – regarding someone else - where I needed to be aware of something to adjust my schedule or to comprehend a person’s real needs.

-------------------
I think it would have been more accurate for me to ask: Is spiritual understanding a way for us to know things to be true without the need for these things to be logically coherent?
“A way”?As in one of many ways? …no.
Probably, the only way.

Of course, there is deception: as in mind control, brainwashing mental/emotional abuse, and even demonic deception, but that has nothing to do with knowledge or the truth – only the controlling intent of others.

hear me out, if the mind cannot understand what the spirit knows to be true, then what the mind does understand is that the spirit knows something.
Yes, if the mind cannot understand it.

In those special cases of naturally incomprehensible information the spirit does not explain why it knows what it knows to be true to the natural mind, it tells the natural mind that what it knows is true.
The Spirit does not need to explain why it “knows” – we have an inner witness – the Holy Spirit. Sort of: knowing that you know. We also have the Word.

The natural mind cannot comprehend why, beyond God's will, but you don't need the spirit to know that in order to believe or understand that concept any more than I do.
In those cases, Yes. We have to walk by faith and trust. We may not understand, but we have the inner witness and our faith/trust.

If the spirit mind can only know, then what more does it offer than reassurance in that department?
Again - the inner witness.

I guess what throws me off is the term spiritual understanding, it implies comprehension.
You used a better word: apprehension.

For my benefit: dictionaryDOTcom
2.
the faculty or act of apprehending, esp. intuitive understanding; perception on a direct and immediate level.


3.
acceptance of or receptivity to information without passing judgment on its validity, often without complete comprehension.


In practice it appears to me that there is no additional comprehension, nor an additional type of information that cannot be naturally apprehended... spiritual understanding appears to be confirmation, not cognition. or something
It is not just confirmation. It is the initial message too. Many times a very direct message with few words. An immediate answer - sometimes quite unexpected in its quickness and sometimes in its spiritual wisdom.

I hope this is helpful. I’ve learned a lot in just writing it down.
Richard :)


And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
1Ki 19:11,12

'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
Rev 3:20

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
"I and the Father are one."
Joh 10:27-30

[DaniHansen]

I’d like to hear Dani’s take as she’s done a really good job of putting all this into words. 'A tough thing to do.

Thank you. Sometimes it's difficult to put things into words that you know and live, but then you have to think about them and go ... Hmmm. How do I put this?

So in your opinion the spirit is an interface between the natural mind and the mind of God?

Man is a 3-fold being ... spirit ... soul ... body. Our bodies communicate with the physical. Our souls contain our emotions, thought processes (minds), and decision-making processes (i.e. our will). Our spirits were originally designed by God to be in constant communication with Him, but sin cut that fellowship off, and so people's spirits are dead unto God (death in the sense of "ceasing to communicate with your environment"). When the Gospel is preached, and a person enters into what Jesus did for them, our spirits are regenerated, i.e. "born again" and put into contact with God. Who is Spirit, not a mind. Does He have a mind? I'm not sure. But the Bible certainly states that He has thoughts. Does He have His mind within a soul, or is it a spiritual mind? I'm going to have to go with option #2.

Long explanation, sorry, but important to "get the whole picture." :)

Short answer: Yes. For the most part.

so not all spiritual information incomprehensible by a natural mind, just some of it.

Correct. There are things that my spirit knows and understands fully, which, when I allow my mind to think about them, it starts to fray around the edges and ends up short-circuiting. Like the vastness of who God is, how He can be everywhere at once, at any time, how He can hear everyone's prayer, how eternity works, and so on and so forth. My spirit knows the truth of it, my mind goes "okay, too much, I'm done, good night."

hear me out, if the mind cannot understand what the spirit knows to be true, then what the mind does understand is that the spirit knows something.

Yes, exactly. And my spirit always wins in those scenarios, because hey, it's closer to God than my mind. Because the Holy Spirit resides within my spirit, not my mind. :)

(Don't ask me how He does that, please, and how He can at the same time live within others and speak to them and guide them, too. I have no clue.)

Hmmm… I think Dani was speaking of two Christians “listening” to God. Sort of that distributed processing.
‘That right Dani?

Yes. There are certain things that only our spirits can "get" and carry. And that we communicate spirit to spirit.

Would it be fair to say that the naturally incomprehensible information isn't something that you understand but something that you believe?

No. This is where we have to separate soul from spirit yet again. My spirit knows the truths of God and knows God when He manifests Himself due to the fellowship and communication. Like you would know your mom's voice over the phone without seeing her face. You just know it's her, right? You don't have to ask for her I.D. every single time, right? It's the same way with knowing that it's God speaking to you, and no-one else. The first time that happens you might go "Whoa, what was that?" but as you continue in that fellowship ... it becomes as familiar as the voice of your best friend or most beloved family member.

Beliefs rest in the soul and are subject to change. God's truth, on the other hand, is never subject to change, but is what it is. Maybe I'm just nitpicking here, but I'm the analytical sort, and I like to keep my apples and oranges separate. :)

You have beliefs, don't you? Do you still carry the same beliefs you had as a child? Think about that for a minute (or not, up to you). :)

Faith rests in the spirit. And true faith is knowing, despite lack of outward proof, because the knowing is its own proof. My spirit ... it just knows that it knows. And usually the proof follows after. And the knowledge my spirit has travels over into my soul and manifests itself there as understanding. Which is a process. Because my soul isn't "fully baked yet" and still in training. :)

Ugh. I hope that helped you in some way.

I am really enjoying this thread, and the responses in it, by the way. Thanks for starting it. :cool:

[dljc]

uh huh, So are you saying that you have no way of answering my questions in a more direct fashion?

1.) Do you spiritually understand spiritual understanding?
Yes, through the Holy Spirit, who teaches me along the way.
2.)Are you consciously able to (think) with your spirit bits?
Yes, it's trusting in Him.
If so can you simultaneously think spiritually while approximating pi to 50 decimal places with your natural mind?

3.) just kidding, but can you consciously and simultaneous do things with both minds?
One can't contradict the other, but yes it's possible to simultaneously do things with both minds, it's considered a oneness of mind with Christ. He leads I follow.

4.) Do you find that there are concepts that you understand spiritually that your natural mind cannot comprehend or represent in any fashion? Not really, this is where the Holy Spirit comes into play and helps me understand them. Jesus spoke of the wind, animals and plants in His illustrations as well as situations and people. You're asking the questions not me. :) You started this thread about an inanimate object "a computer". As I said before there a many variables and creators involved with that.


1.) why do you answer unbelievers questions here?

2.) what do you hope to accomplish and how?

1.) Because I was blind but now I see.

2.) To help them to see the light. By introducing them to the light...Jesus Christ.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


A couple of questions for you.

1.) What do you hope to accomplish from your questions here?

2.) Just what is it that you do believe from what we've said so far?

[oscarkipling]

Hi Oscar, :)
You have a probing mind – asking some deep questions. Things which even pertain to: “hearing” the voice of God.
I’m no expert on the topic, but I will do the best that I can.

In a way you’re asking for spiritual meat (Heb 5:12-14) without having the molars to properly ingest this information.
You may understand the “concepts” as best we can explain them, but you cannot experience any of it without the Holy Spirit, and you cannot gain the Holy Spirit without Jesus.

Some people have heard an audible voice a time or two. Others (like me), have heard an exterior voice without sound, but being exact in words and distinct in tone and emphatic intent (the heart of God). I have not heard that again in over 25 years. Instances like these are sometimes what it takes for God to get through to a person.
Usually this would be a corrective rebuke about sin. (the case with me)
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Rev 3:19

The optimal way of hearing God is by being sensitive enough to His will, that gentle leadings and quiet whispers are enough.

One way we can know and recognize His will, is by knowing and understanding His Word. Unlike other books which can be read once or twice to GET the book.
The Bible continually reveals God’s: nature, heart, intent, motives, plan, will, righteousness, holiness, justness, love, patience, mercy,… I could go on and on.

By knowing His Word, He will sometimes merely bring an applicable verse or two to mind. Sometimes it’s a familiar verse with a new understanding. In my experience it is an “abnormally” quick recall without effort on my part.

Most of the time, God’s voice is indistinguishable from our own, but in knowing the will of God, we should not need direct instruction.
Mostly “Spiritual information” is a very quite voice – requiring sensitivity and listening.

There are other ways to gain spiritual information like literal object lessons. Like a bug crawling on a leaf or a limping dog.
We can sometimes interpret meaning from seemingly every day occurrences.
And then there are dreams and such, but interpretation is not always so easy and sometimes we really may read things in which are not.

It’s all a process of becoming sensitive to God and leaning not on our own understanding.
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
Pro 3:5-7
Mostly, we must continually seek Him and trust Him – not always knowing where we are going (in this life) or what we are to do.


On a few rare occasions I’ve had a word of knowledge and on occasion a word of wisdom – regarding someone else - where I needed to be aware of something to adjust my schedule or to comprehend a person’s real needs.

-------------------
I think it would have been more accurate for me to ask: Is spiritual understanding a way for us to know things to be true without the need for these things to be logically coherent?
“A way”?As in one of many ways? …no.
Probably, the only way.

Of course, there is deception: as in mind control, brainwashing mental/emotional abuse, and even demonic deception, but that has nothing to do with knowledge or the truth – only the controlling intent of others.

hear me out, if the mind cannot understand what the spirit knows to be true, then what the mind does understand is that the spirit knows something.
Yes, if the mind cannot understand it.

In those special cases of naturally incomprehensible information the spirit does not explain why it knows what it knows to be true to the natural mind, it tells the natural mind that what it knows is true.
The Spirit does not need to explain why it “knows” – we have an inner witness – the Holy Spirit. Sort of: knowing that you know. We also have the Word.

The natural mind cannot comprehend why, beyond God's will, but you don't need the spirit to know that in order to believe or understand that concept any more than I do.
In those cases, Yes. We have to walk by faith and trust. We may not understand, but we have the inner witness and our faith/trust.

If the spirit mind can only know, then what more does it offer than reassurance in that department?
Again - the inner witness.

I guess what throws me off is the term spiritual understanding, it implies comprehension.
You used a better word: apprehension.

For my benefit: dictionaryDOTcom
2.
the faculty or act of apprehending, esp. intuitive understanding; perception on a direct and immediate level.


3.
acceptance of or receptivity to information without passing judgment on its validity, often without complete comprehension.


In practice it appears to me that there is no additional comprehension, nor an additional type of information that cannot be naturally apprehended... spiritual understanding appears to be confirmation, not cognition. or something
It is not just confirmation. It is the initial message too. Many times a very direct message with few words. An immediate answer - sometimes quite unexpected in its quickness and sometimes in its spiritual wisdom.

I hope this is helpful. I’ve learned a lot in just writing it down.
Richard :)


And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
1Ki 19:11,12

'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
Rev 3:20

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
"I and the Father are one."
Joh 10:27-30


well Richard thanks for your post, as always

[oscarkipling]

Thank you. Sometimes it's difficult to put things into words that you know and live, but then you have to think about them and go ... Hmmm. How do I put this?



Man is a 3-fold being ... spirit ... soul ... body. Our bodies communicate with the physical. Our souls contain our emotions, thought processes (minds), and decision-making processes (i.e. our will). Our spirits were originally designed by God to be in constant communication with Him, but sin cut that fellowship off, and so people's spirits are dead unto God (death in the sense of "ceasing to communicate with your environment"). When the Gospel is preached, and a person enters into what Jesus did for them, our spirits are regenerated, i.e. "born again" and put into contact with God. Who is Spirit, not a mind. Does He have a mind? I'm not sure. But the Bible certainly states that He has thoughts. Does He have His mind within a soul, or is it a spiritual mind? I'm going to have to go with option #2.

Long explanation, sorry, but important to "get the whole picture." :)

Short answer: Yes. For the most part.



Correct. There are things that my spirit knows and understands fully, which, when I allow my mind to think about them, it starts to fray around the edges and ends up short-circuiting. Like the vastness of who God is, how He can be everywhere at once, at any time, how He can hear everyone's prayer, how eternity works, and so on and so forth. My spirit knows the truth of it, my mind goes "okay, too much, I'm done, good night."



Yes, exactly. And my spirit always wins in those scenarios, because hey, it's closer to God than my mind. Because the Holy Spirit resides within my spirit, not my mind. :)

(Don't ask me how He does that, please, and how He can at the same time live within others and speak to them and guide them, too. I have no clue.)



Yes. There are certain things that only our spirits can "get" and carry. And that we communicate spirit to spirit.



No. This is where we have to separate soul from spirit yet again. My spirit knows the truths of God and knows God when He manifests Himself due to the fellowship and communication. Like you would know your mom's voice over the phone without seeing her face. You just know it's her, right? You don't have to ask for her I.D. every single time, right? It's the same way with knowing that it's God speaking to you, and no-one else. The first time that happens you might go "Whoa, what was that?" but as you continue in that fellowship ... it becomes as familiar as the voice of your best friend or most beloved family member.

Beliefs rest in the soul and are subject to change. God's truth, on the other hand, is never subject to change, but is what it is. Maybe I'm just nitpicking here, but I'm the analytical sort, and I like to keep my apples and oranges separate. :)

You have beliefs, don't you? Do you still carry the same beliefs you had as a child? Think about that for a minute (or not, up to you). :)

Faith rests in the spirit. And true faith is knowing, despite lack of outward proof, because the knowing is its own proof. My spirit ... it just knows that it knows. And usually the proof follows after. And the knowledge my spirit has travels over into my soul and manifests itself there as understanding. Which is a process. Because my soul isn't "fully baked yet" and still in training. :)

Ugh. I hope that helped you in some way.

I am really enjoying this thread, and the responses in it, by the way. Thanks for starting it. :cool:

well, okey dokey, thanks for your post

[oscarkipling]

You started this thread about an inanimate object "a computer". As I said before there a many variables and creators involved with that.


oh, I don't think computers have to be inanimate objects..anyway okay


1.) Because I was blind but now I see.

2.) To help them to see the light. By introducing them to the light...Jesus Christ.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


how can you introduce someone to the light?



A couple of questions for you.

1.) What do you hope to accomplish from your questions here?


I'd like to determine, to a satisfactory degree, if Christianity is actually what its followers claim it to be. Also I'd like to determine, to a satisfactory degree, the tenets and mechanics of Christian belief.


2.) Just what is it that you do believe from what we've said so far?

So far, spiritual understanding does not appear to me to behave in a fashion consistent with at least some of the attributes proposed by the fine people on this forum. So far, I don't feel that the scripture presented necessitates or explicitly supports at least some of those attributes proposed by the fine people on this forum....or somethin'

[DaniHansen]

I've purposefully not given you any Scripture to go along with my statements. If you need them, to see how my statements line up with the Bible, I can certainly provide them. :)

In practice it appears to me that there is no additional comprehension, nor an additional type of information that cannot be naturally apprehended... spiritual understanding appears to be confirmation, not cognition. or something

No. The natural mind cannot understand the things of God. Not now, not ever. You must be born again, and God has to make your spirit alive for you to receive spiritual truth. This is why God regenerates our spirits and then puts them in charge, and places His Spirit within us, and then uses our spirits to renew our minds, with His Word and His Spirit together, and changes our thinking to line up with His truth. This is where you have it backwards. :)

[oscarkipling]

I've purposefully not given you any Scripture to go along with my statements. If you need them, to see how my statements line up with the Bible, I can certainly provide them. :)


yes, I like scripture to be a part of the answer, I just like for it to be explained..so yes, I would like for you to provide relevant vesrsage


No. The natural mind cannot understand the things of God. Not now, not ever. You must be born again, and God has to make your spirit alive for you to receive spiritual truth. This is why God regenerates our spirits and then puts them in charge, and places His Spirit within us, and then uses our spirits to renew our minds, with His Word and His Spirit together, and changes our thinking to line up with His truth. This is where you have it backwards. :)

spiritual truth? do you have an example of a spiritual truth? also scripture here would be very useful to me.

[dljc]

oh, I don't think computers have to be inanimate objects..anyway okayWhen was the last time your computer tucked you into bed at night? Or gave you a massage, or complained because you were banging on the keyboard keys too hard because someone made you angry? When was the last time your computer made dinner for you, or changed the oil in your car? Obviously it can't do any of those things can it? How many of those things can you do? Apples and oranges my friend.
how can you introduce someone to the light?Tell them about Jesus, and all He's done for them. How much He loves them despite the fact they are a sinner. All they have to do is repent of those sins and follow Him. But I know all I can do is point the person to Him, I can't make them see Him. It's He who opens the eyes of that person, because only He knows the heart of that person.
I'd like to determine, to a satisfactory degree, if Christianity is actually what its followers claim it to be. Also I'd like to determine, to a satisfactory degree, the tenets and mechanics of Christian belief.



So far, spiritual understanding does not appear to me to behave in a fashion consistent with at least some of the attributes proposed by the fine people on this forum. So far, I don't feel that the scripture presented necessitates or explicitly supports at least some of those attributes proposed by the fine people on this forum....or somethin'No offense Oscar, but you're leaving something out here.

1.) That is the fact that each PERSON who has answered you has a different level of understanding of spiritual things. We don't magically attain this when we become Christians. It's a process that is learned, and it depends on how much time that person actually spends with the Lord. If we aren't spending time with the Lord, (and I'm not saying anyone isn't), we tend to listen to the natural mind more than the Spirtual mind. This can be discerned by a more mature Christian, just by the reaction you get from the other Christian. But we are not to condemn that person or ridicule them for it. We are to help them grow in Him.

2.) As I read through your posts, I can't help but see this person (in my mind), who is examining God from behind an interrogation mirror. You know as well as we do, that we are an ambassador for Christ. If you don't see Christ in us, then this belief has little meaning to you. But in pops the problem. How can you (Oscar Kipling) truly know Christ, unless you walk and talk with Him? We were sinners too, and we still sin from time to time. There is only one person who has ever lived a sinless life, and that is Jesus Christ. Judging Him by us will not get you any closer to Him. For all have sinned and fall short of His glory. (Romans 3:23)

When you are ready to enter into your interrogation room and actually talk to God Himself. Only then, can you know Him. Until then, you will never truly know who He is, and all that He's done for you. Come now, and letus reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isaiah 1:18)

The irony to all of this is, man doesn't like being put in a box and examined. Why do you think God likes it? Wouldn't you rather I talk to you, or would you rather I put you in a room with an interrogation mirror and just observe your behavior?

[DaniHansen]

John 4:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=4&verse=24&version=50&context=verse)
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

John 3:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&verse=7&version=50&context=verse)
Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

John 14:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=17&version=50&context=verse)
the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

1 Corinthians 6:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=6&verse=17&version=50&context=verse)
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

1 Corinthians 2:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=2&verse=11&version=50&context=verse)
For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=2&verse=12&version=50&context=verse)
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

John 10:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=10&verse=27&version=50&context=verse)
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

1 Corinthians 2:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=2&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=4&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.

1 John 6
We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

1 John 2
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.

Hebrews 11:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=11&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=2&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[oscarkipling]

When was the last time your computer tucked you into bed at night? Or gave you a massage, or complained because you were banging on the keyboard keys too hard because someone made you angry? When was the last time your computer made dinner for you, or changed the oil in your car? Obviously it can't do any of those things can it? How many of those things can you do? Apples and oranges my friend.


well I was alluding to biological computers...but obviously my computer cant do those things, but a computer could with the proper peripherals and programming could do all of those things. What if a machine could accomplish these amazing feats? ever heard of Alan Turing?...anyway I wasn't ever trying to argue that computers were people or vice versa, just that I'm not so convinced about what kind of fruit we're dealing with...we disagree, and I accept that.


Tell them about Jesus, and all He's done for them. How much He loves them despite the fact they are a sinner. All they have to do is repent of those sins and follow Him. But I know all I can do is point the person to Him, I can't make them see Him. It's He who opens the eyes of that person, because only He knows the heart of that person.


good stuff, I appreciate it


No offense Oscar, but you're leaving something out here.
1.) That is the fact that each PERSON who has answered you has a different level of understanding of spiritual things. We don't magically attain this when we become Christians. It's a process that is learned, and it depends on how much time that person actually spends with the Lord. If we aren't spending time with the Lord, (and I'm not saying anyone isn't), we tend to listen to the natural mind more than the Spirtual mind. This can be discerned by a more mature Christian, just by the reaction you get from the other Christian. But we are not to condemn that person or ridicule them for it. We are to help them grow in Him.


no offense taken, but I haven't missed this at all, people here make this know in nearly every thread I've started implicitly or explicitly.


2.) As I read through your posts, I can't help but see this person (in my mind), who is examining God from behind an interrogation mirror. You know as well as we do, that we are an ambassador for Christ. If you don't see Christ in us, then this belief has little meaning to you. But in pops the problem. How can you (Oscar Kipling) truly know Christ, unless you walk and talk with Him? We were sinners too, and we still sin from time to time. There is only one person who has ever lived a sinless life, and that is Jesus Christ. Judging Him by us will not get you any closer to Him. For all have sinned and fall short of His glory. (Romans 3:23)

When you are ready to enter into your interrogation room and actually talk to God Himself. Only then, can you know Him. Until then, you will never truly know who He is, and all that He's done for you. Come now, and letus reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isaiah 1:18)


true, I dont see Christ in you (yall), I dont see much if anything that I can honestly say is supernatural about the people here. The most staggering revelations and insights are ones that i'm told I couldnt understand anyway, so yeah I see. I would have to believe that all of this does make sense and that all of it is true before I could actually get to know Christ, or he could do something more dramatic...either way that leaves me here with 1 concious option, looking at a bunch of words and gathering what I can from them...so far was the context..and this is so far as i've come. what do you suggest I do?



The irony to all of this is, man doesn't like being put in a box and examined. Why do you think God likes it? Wouldn't you rather I talk to you, or would you rather I put you in a room with an interrogation mirror and just observe your behavior?

-If God exists I can't put him in a box.I never predicted that God liked what I was doing, but if God does exists I dont see why he would mind me trying to learn about him and his people even if I go about it all wrong...he knows what kind of person he made in me.

-I dont believe in God, but if he does exists , yes i'd much rather just sit down and have a long talk...actually i'd rather end this whole debacle and Go join him in heaven and not even care how or why it works.

-I dont know what you think i should be doing...well besides believing in God somehow.

[oscarkipling]

John 4:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=4&verse=24&version=50&context=verse)
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

John 3:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&verse=7&version=50&context=verse)
Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

John 14:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=17&version=50&context=verse)
the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

1 Corinthians 6:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=6&verse=17&version=50&context=verse)
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

1 Corinthians 2:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=2&verse=11&version=50&context=verse)
For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=2&verse=12&version=50&context=verse)
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

John 10:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=10&verse=27&version=50&context=verse)
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

1 Corinthians 2:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=2&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=4&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.

1 John 6
We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

1 John 2
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.

Hebrews 11:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=11&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=2&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Limpio habichuelas, thanks

[DaniHansen]

Limpio habichuelas, thanks

What's that mean, pray tell? Your beans are clean? :rofl:

[oscarkipling]

What's that mean, pray tell? Your beans are clean? :rofl:


yes, you've never heard that saying? "I didn't know that, that really cleaned my beans"or "Gee, after that class ,my beans have never been cleaner" or "he doesn't know? somebody should go clean his beans before he makes a mistake"?

[dljc]

well I was alluding to biological computers...but obviously my computer cant do those things, but a computer could with the proper peripherals and programming could do all of those things. What if a machine could accomplish these amazing feats? ever heard of Alan Turing?...anyway I wasn't ever trying to argue that computers were people or vice versa, just that I'm not so convinced about what kind of fruit we're dealing with...we disagree, and I accept that.



good stuff, I appreciate it



no offense taken, but I haven't missed this at all, people here make this know in nearly every thread I've started implicitly or explicitly.



true, I dont see Christ in you (yall), I dont see much if anything that I can honestly say is supernatural about the people here. The most staggering revelations and insights are ones that i'm told I couldnt understand anyway, so yeah I see. I would have to believe that all of this does make sense and that all of it is true before I could actually get to know Christ, or he could do something more dramatic...either way that leaves me here with 1 concious option, looking at a bunch of words and gathering what I can from them...so far was the context..and this is so far as i've come. what do you suggest I do?




-If God exists I can't put him in a box.I never predicted that God liked what I was doing, but if God does exists I dont see why he would mind me trying to learn about him and his people even if I go about it all wrong...he knows what kind of person he made in me.

-I dont believe in God, but if he does exists , yes i'd much rather just sit down and have a long talk...actually i'd rather end this whole debacle and Go join him in heaven and not even care how or why it works.

-I dont know what you think i should be doing...well besides believing in God somehow.How about we simplify this with the bold underline comment from your post.

You are asking for my suggestion; so here it is. Get on your knees and pray and talk to Him with a sincere heart that you want to get to know Him. Tell Him what's on your mind concerning Him. Keep in mind, He knows if your heart is sincere or mocking. If its the former He'll talk to you, if it's the latter, you might as well be talking to thin air. He's not going to answer you. Tell Him you're sorry for the things you've done that have offended Him. And that you believe that His Son Jesus Christ died for your sins, and was resurrected so that you could be reconciled with Him.

If you have a sincere heart, He'll know.

1. Rom. 3:10, "As it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one...'"

2. Rom. 3:23, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

3. Rom. 5:12, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

4. Rom. 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

5. Rom. 5:8, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

6. Rom. 10:9-10, "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

7. Rom. 10:13, "For whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."

[oscarkipling]

How about we simplify this with the bold underline comment from your post.

You are asking for my suggestion; so here it is. Get on your knees and pray and talk to Him with a sincere heart that you want to get to know Him. Tell Him what's on your mind concerning Him. Keep in mind, He knows if your heart is sincere or mocking. If its the former He'll talk to you, if it's the latter, you might as well be talking to thin air. He's not going to answer you. Tell Him you're sorry for the things you've done that have offended Him. And that you believe that His Son Jesus Christ died for your sins, and was resurrected so that you could be reconciled with Him.

If you have a sincere heart, He'll know.

1. Rom. 3:10, "As it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one...'"

2. Rom. 3:23, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

3. Rom. 5:12, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

4. Rom. 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

5. Rom. 5:8, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

6. Rom. 10:9-10, "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

7. Rom. 10:13, "For whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."

what do I do if I don't believe in him?

[DaniHansen]

what do I do if I don't believe in him?

Draw back 10 steps ... start with "God if you're real ..." yada yada.

I've never not believed there was a God even though I ignored Him for a very long time, so I'm not sure what one would do in your situation, but I'm going to keep you covered prayer-wise. So .. um .. get ready. :)

And thanks for explaining the "cleaning the beans" thing. It's not something I had heard of, nor use. Nor did the young man who lives with us who hails from Latin America, who I ran to for translation.

Cleaning clocks, sure. Beans? Not so much.

[Chimon]

I think what you are refering to as a spiritual mind would be best understood as the Christian's soul or spirit being aided by the Holy Spirt, who is a member of the Godhead or Trinity. The Holy Spirit enables Christians to understand spiritual truth that we would otherwise not be able to comprehend because God is wholy other than us (transcendent) and can only be understood in as much as he chooses to make himself known.

The Holy Spirit, can however, interact with nonchristians as well. The Holy Spirit convicts nonchristians of sin and extends the spiritual invitation to salvation. However, before salvation, the Holy Spirit's interaction with an individual is greatly by their ongoing rejection of Christ. After salvation, the Holy Spirit dwells permanently within the body of a Christian. (Because the Holy Spirit is God, He can indwell people all over the world at the same time.)

Christians still sin (although with decreasing frequency) and this sin deafens the believer to the whisper of the Spirit. As a Christian lives on, the Spirit progressively works in them to make them increasely more like Christ and less sinful. It was the Spirit that oversaw and superintended the writing of the Scriptures, and it is also the Spirit that guides (illuminates) our understanding of them.

To answer your direct question, the Christian mind is an interaction between the Christian spirit (local) and the Holy Spirit (who is in us, but not a part of us, and, being God, is everywhere at once, so may be considered remote.)

These may be relevant to your question:

1 Corinthians 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20corinthians%202&version=31)

1 Corinthians 6:15-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%206:15-20;&version=31;)

[dljc]

what do I do if I don't believe in him?Why? He believes in you. Let me give you something to consider.

Father's Love Letter


My Child.....

You may not know me, but I know everything about you.....Psalm 139:1

I know when you sit down and when you rise up.....Psalm 139:2

I am familiar with all your ways.....Psalm 139:3

Even the very hairs on your head are numbered.....Matthew 10:29-31

For you were made in my image.....Genesis 1:27

In me you live and move and have your being.....Acts 17:28

For you are my offspring.....Acts 17:28

I knew you even before you were conceived.....Jeremiah 1:4-5

I chose you when I planned creation.....Ephesians 1:11-12

You were not a mistake, for all your days are written in my book.....Psalm 139:15-16

I determined the exact time of your birth and where you would live.....Acts 17:26

You are fearfully and wonderfully made.....Psalm 139:14

I knit you together in your mother's womb.....Psalm 139:13

And brought you forth on the day you were born.....Psalm 71:6

I have been misrepresented by those who don't know me.....John 8:41-44

I am not distant and angry, but am the complete expression of love.....1 John 4:16

And it is my desire to lavish my love on you.....1 John 3:1

Simply because you are my child and I am your father.....1 John 3:1

I offer you more than your earthly father ever could.....Matthew 7:11

For I am the perfect father.....Matthew 5:48

Every good gift that you receive comes from my hand.....James 1:17

For I am your provider and I meet all your needs.....Matthew 6:31-33

My plan for your future has always been filled with hope.....Jeremiah 29:11

Because I love you with an everlasting love.....Jeremiah 31:3

My thoughts toward you are countless as the sand on the seashore.....Psalm 139:17-18

And I rejoice over you with singing.....Zephaniah 3:17

I will never stop doing good to you.....Jeremiah 32:40

For you are my treasured possession.....Exodus 19:5

I desire to establish you with all my heart and all my soul.....Jeremiah 32:41

And I want to show you great and marvelous things.....Jeremiah 33:3

If you seek me with all your heart, you will find me.....Deuteronomy 4:29

Delight in me and I will give you the desires of your heart.....Psalm 37:4

For it is I who gave you those desires.....Philippians 2:13

I am able to do more for you than you could possibly imagine.....Ephesians 3:20

For I am your greatest encourager.....2 Thessalonians 2:16-17

I am also the Father who comforts you in all your troubles.....2 Corinthians 1:3-4

When you are brokenhearted, I am close to you.....Psalm 34:18

As a shepherd carries a lamb, I have carried you close to my heart.....Isaiah 40:11

One day I will wipe away every tear from your eyes.....Revelation 21:3-4

And I'll take away all the pain you have suffered on this earth.....Revelation 21:3-4

I am your Father, and I love you even as I love my son, Jesus.....John 17:23

For in Jesus, my love for you is revealed.....John 17:26

He is the exact representation of my being.....Hebrews 1:3

He came to demonstrate that I am for you, not against you.....Romans 8:31

And to tell you that I am not counting your sins.....2 Corinthians 5:18-19

Jesus died so that you and I could be reconciled.....2 Corinthians 5:18-19

His death was the ultimate expression of my love for you.....1 John 4:10

I gave up everything I loved that I might gain your love.....Romans 8:31-32

If you receive the gift of my son Jesus, you receive me.....1 John 2:23

And nothing will ever separate you from my love again.....Romans 8:38-39

Come home and I'll throw the biggest party heaven has ever seen.....Luke 15:7

I have always been Father, and will always be Father.....Ephesians 3:14-15

My question is.....Will you be my child?.....John 1:12-13

I am waiting for you.....Luke 15:11-32

Love, Your Dad. Almighty God

[oscarkipling]

Draw back 10 steps ... start with "God if you're real ..." yada yada.

I've never not believed there was a God even though I ignored Him for a very long time, so I'm not sure what one would do in your situation, but I'm going to keep you covered prayer-wise. So .. um .. get ready. :)


Thanks for your prayers, and I have done the whole "God if you exists" yada yada multiple times.


And thanks for explaining the "cleaning the beans" thing. It's not something I had heard of, nor use. Nor did the young man who lives with us who hails from Latin America, who I ran to for translation.

Cleaning clocks, sure. Beans? Not so much.

lol looks like I cleaned your beans on bean cleaning :spin:

[oscarkipling]

I think what you are refering to as a spiritual mind would be best understood as the Christian's soul or spirit being aided by the Holy Spirt, who is a member of the Godhead or Trinity. The Holy Spirit enables Christians to understand spiritual truth that we would otherwise not be able to comprehend because God is wholy other than us (transcendent) and can only be understood in as much as he chooses to make himself known.

The Holy Spirit, can however, interact with nonchristians as well. The Holy Spirit convicts nonchristians of sin and extends the spiritual invitation to salvation. However, before salvation, the Holy Spirit's interaction with an individual is greatly by their ongoing rejection of Christ. After salvation, the Holy Spirit dwells permanently within the body of a Christian. (Because the Holy Spirit is God, He can indwell people all over the world at the same time.)

Christians still sin (although with decreasing frequency) and this sin deafens the believer to the whisper of the Spirit. As a Christian lives on, the Spirit progressively works in them to make them increasely more like Christ and less sinful. It was the Spirit that oversaw and superintended the writing of the Scriptures, and it is also the Spirit that guides (illuminates) our understanding of them.

To answer your direct question, the Christian mind is an interaction between the Christian spirit (local) and the Holy Spirit (who is in us, but not a part of us, and, being God, is everywhere at once, so may be considered remote.)

These may be relevant to your question:

1 Corinthians 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20corinthians%202&version=31)

1 Corinthians 6:15-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%206:15-20;&version=31;)


thanks chimon for your contributions

[Richard H]

Thanks for your prayers, and I have done the whole "God if you exists" yada yada multiple times.
Hi Oscar,
It’s good to hear you say that.
I prayed the “sinner’s prayer” several times – years before He tapped me on the shoulder to get my attention.
I changed my behavior, but I just didn’t get it - not until over a year later.

I certainly wasn’t impressed with the Bpts in the small southern town that I found myself trapped in – but actually, I was prejudging them.
I looked to identify the hypocrisy and the weaknesses of these sheep.
I felt rejected (at best - barely tolerated) as a “Yankee Northerner” in their midst’s, since many are still fighting the civil war in their minds.
I had nothing against them until I moved there.

I was raised RC - but in adolescence, decided it was cool to be agnostic – my answer for ignoring the whole thing for over a decade.

One Sunday morning, I was watching my least favorite preacher.
(we only had three channels at best – all of which had some sort of “Bible thumper”)
I started thinking about God and the universe and the state of the world and the possibility of heaven.
Not in very concrete terms – just all kind of swirling around in my head.

Suddenly, I thought “If God is real – I need to “get on His good side”.
And then another thought occurred to me:
“I couldn’t see a perfect God, by looking at imperfect people.”

So I listened to the man on TV. I took all my “questions” about creation, the flood, the Garden of Eden – and ALL THAT – and I shoved them aside.
They were not important. I desired to know one thing – God.
I determined that I’d accept Jesus as my Savior and my Lord – and (at the time) to some extent, even my Master – and I would follow Him.

I must say that in the back of my mind, I knew that IF this was not the way, I’d figure it out eventually.
I determined to go “all out” and begin again – a fresh start.
After all: I nothing to lose and everything to gain.

It’s not the same for everybody, but something happened to me.
Something I can never deny. He made me into a new person on the inside somehow.
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
2Co 5:17 (Gal 6:15)

Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
John 3:3-8

For me, this happened back in 1982. I struggled as a new babe with no mentor except the Spirit and the Word.
Since then, I’ve stumbled and even fallen, but I can never deny that Jesus took my sins upon His shoulders and somehow gave me a new start in life.

You can ask questions trying to understand all this and we can answer them as best we can.
You can even pray the “sinners’ prayer” until the cows come home.
But until you determine in your HEART to give yourself to Him, as He gave Himself for you,
you’ll just continue seeking knowledge but never be able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (2 Tim 3:7)

Richard

[Sold Out]

These are things as I understand them, so if it’s out of line with Christianity then tell me so.

Spriritual understanding is the end product of a Christian receiving and processing spiritual information. Spiritual information is infallible and is readily accessible to every Christian. Spiritual information is irretrievable and incomprehensible by natural means. The written word of God contains spiritual information that cannot be detected or processed by a non-believer. Spiritual information cannot be conveyed between a believer and a non-believer; any attempts will fail to retain the original data or logical integrity. Spiritual information cannot be received read processed or stored physically, the mechanism by which a Christian can receive and process spiritual information is a separate “spiritual mind” that is appropriated by or interfaced with by the believer upon believing....or I guess upon salvation is more appropriate.

So my questions are about the interface and the minds.

Is the spiritual mind local, or is it a single spiritual mind (server/mainframe) and Christians are the terminals?

How do these minds interface with each other?

What kind of information is shared between them?

Is the physical/natural mind a subset of the spiritual mind (I mean does the spiritual mind understand the physical world but not vice versa)?

You explained that rather well!

When we get saved, we get a new nature, the Holy Spirit. It is by the Holy Spirit that we gain spiritual understanding. God is literally within us spiritually!

The problem is, we retain the old sin nature. The two natures battle it out everyday. Our fleshly sin nature wants control, as does the Holy Spirit. The decision to who wins rest solely with the individual. It depends on nutrition. (yes, I said nutrition).

Back in the day when they had lion fighting exhibitions, for fun they would feed one lion for the week and starve the other one. When fight day came, who do you think won? The lion that was fed, of course!

It is the same with Christians and their two natures. The one that is fed will win. If we feed our sin nature with worldly things, the sin nature will take precedence in our life. If we feed the new nature with spiritual things, the Holy Spirit will take precedence in our life.

[DaniHansen]

Thanks for your prayers, and I have done the whole "God if you exists" yada yada multiple times.


Excellent! Only a matter of time then.

Of course He's not going to stop there. :)

[oscarkipling]

Hi Oscar,
It’s good to hear you say that.
I prayed the “sinner’s prayer” several times – years before He tapped me on the shoulder to get my attention.
I changed my behavior, but I just didn’t get it - not until over a year later.

I certainly wasn’t impressed with the Bpts in the small southern town that I found myself trapped in – but actually, I was prejudging them.
I looked to identify the hypocrisy and the weaknesses of these sheep.
I felt rejected (at best - barely tolerated) as a “Yankee Northerner” in their midst’s, since many are still fighting the civil war in their minds.
I had nothing against them until I moved there.

I was raised RC - but in adolescence, decided it was cool to be agnostic – my answer for ignoring the whole thing for over a decade.

One Sunday morning, I was watching my least favorite preacher.
(we only had three channels at best – all of which had some sort of “Bible thumper”)
I started thinking about God and the universe and the state of the world and the possibility of heaven.
Not in very concrete terms – just all kind of swirling around in my head.

Suddenly, I thought “If God is real – I need to “get on His good side”.
And then another thought occurred to me:
“I couldn’t see a perfect God, by looking at imperfect people.”

So I listened to the man on TV. I took all my “questions” about creation, the flood, the Garden of Eden – and ALL THAT – and I shoved them aside.
They were not important. I desired to know one thing – God.
I determined that I’d accept Jesus as my Savior and my Lord – and (at the time) to some extent, even my Master – and I would follow Him.

I must say that in the back of my mind, I knew that IF this was not the way, I’d figure it out eventually.
I determined to go “all out” and begin again – a fresh start.
After all: I nothing to lose and everything to gain.

It’s not the same for everybody, but something happened to me.
Something I can never deny. He made me into a new person on the inside somehow.
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
2Co 5:17 (Gal 6:15)

Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
John 3:3-8

For me, this happened back in 1982. I struggled as a new babe with no mentor except the Spirit and the Word.
Since then, I’ve stumbled and even fallen, but I can never deny that Jesus took my sins upon His shoulders and somehow gave me a new start in life.

You can ask questions trying to understand all this and we can answer them as best we can.
You can even pray the “sinners’ prayer” until the cows come home.
But until you determine in your HEART to give yourself to Him, as He gave Himself for you,
you’ll just continue seeking knowledge but never be able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (2 Tim 3:7)

Richard

Are you suggesting that I should just decide that God is real, and that Christ is God and that the Bible is true?

[oscarkipling]

Why?


Because I'm not convinced by the evidence and contrary evidence.
Because of Christians.Muslims.Buddhist.Hindus. most all religions really.
Because He wont speak to me (In a way that I recognize).
Because of the Bible



He believes in you. Let me give you something to consider.
Father's Love Letter


My Child.....

You may not know me, but I know everything about you.....Psalm 139:1

I know when you sit down and when you rise up.....Psalm 139:2

I am familiar with all your ways.....Psalm 139:3

Even the very hairs on your head are numbered.....Matthew 10:29-31

For you were made in my image.....Genesis 1:27

In me you live and move and have your being.....Acts 17:28

For you are my offspring.....Acts 17:28

I knew you even before you were conceived.....Jeremiah 1:4-5

I chose you when I planned creation.....Ephesians 1:11-12

You were not a mistake, for all your days are written in my book.....Psalm 139:15-16

I determined the exact time of your birth and where you would live.....Acts 17:26

You are fearfully and wonderfully made.....Psalm 139:14

I knit you together in your mother's womb.....Psalm 139:13

And brought you forth on the day you were born.....Psalm 71:6

I have been misrepresented by those who don't know me.....John 8:41-44

I am not distant and angry, but am the complete expression of love.....1 John 4:16

And it is my desire to lavish my love on you.....1 John 3:1

Simply because you are my child and I am your father.....1 John 3:1

I offer you more than your earthly father ever could.....Matthew 7:11

For I am the perfect father.....Matthew 5:48

Every good gift that you receive comes from my hand.....James 1:17

For I am your provider and I meet all your needs.....Matthew 6:31-33

My plan for your future has always been filled with hope.....Jeremiah 29:11

Because I love you with an everlasting love.....Jeremiah 31:3

My thoughts toward you are countless as the sand on the seashore.....Psalm 139:17-18

And I rejoice over you with singing.....Zephaniah 3:17

I will never stop doing good to you.....Jeremiah 32:40

For you are my treasured possession.....Exodus 19:5

I desire to establish you with all my heart and all my soul.....Jeremiah 32:41

And I want to show you great and marvelous things.....Jeremiah 33:3

If you seek me with all your heart, you will find me.....Deuteronomy 4:29

Delight in me and I will give you the desires of your heart.....Psalm 37:4

For it is I who gave you those desires.....Philippians 2:13

I am able to do more for you than you could possibly imagine.....Ephesians 3:20

For I am your greatest encourager.....2 Thessalonians 2:16-17

I am also the Father who comforts you in all your troubles.....2 Corinthians 1:3-4

When you are brokenhearted, I am close to you.....Psalm 34:18

As a shepherd carries a lamb, I have carried you close to my heart.....Isaiah 40:11

One day I will wipe away every tear from your eyes.....Revelation 21:3-4

And I'll take away all the pain you have suffered on this earth.....Revelation 21:3-4

I am your Father, and I love you even as I love my son, Jesus.....John 17:23

For in Jesus, my love for you is revealed.....John 17:26

He is the exact representation of my being.....Hebrews 1:3

He came to demonstrate that I am for you, not against you.....Romans 8:31

And to tell you that I am not counting your sins.....2 Corinthians 5:18-19

Jesus died so that you and I could be reconciled.....2 Corinthians 5:18-19

His death was the ultimate expression of my love for you.....1 John 4:10

I gave up everything I loved that I might gain your love.....Romans 8:31-32

If you receive the gift of my son Jesus, you receive me.....1 John 2:23

And nothing will ever separate you from my love again.....Romans 8:38-39

Come home and I'll throw the biggest party heaven has ever seen.....Luke 15:7

I have always been Father, and will always be Father.....Ephesians 3:14-15

My question is.....Will you be my child?.....John 1:12-13

I am waiting for you.....Luke 15:11-32

Love, Your Dad. Almighty God


thanks for that

[DaniHansen]

I think Richard was more suggesting that there was a lightbulb that went off in his head, and he decided to act on that light.

Not just ... is God real? ... but ... if He's really real, what am I going to do about it? And where am I going to end up if I do nothing?

Nobody can decide that God is real, any more that you can decide that you are a head of cabbage. It's more of a consideration of the "what if He is? then what?" ... and as you take steps to find out, the truth will be revealed to you.

Meaning that at some point in the game you're going to have to stop considering what it's like on the inside of a building that interests you, while you stare at it from the outside ... and open the door and check things out yourself instead of just taking other people's words for it.

[Richard H]

Are you suggesting that I should just decide that God is real, and that Christ is God and that the Bible is true?
I was mostly telling you my experience, Oscar.

I really wasn't suggesting anything other than gaining some insight or even an "understanding" of how Christianity operates, won't do you any good until you follow your heart.

Your heart may lead you, but you can also lead it.
Ultimately, what you purpose in your heart will determine your path.

Only you can figure out what you'll do.
Richard

[tango]

Oscar, reading through this thread I couldn't help but notice how you seem to be trying to understand Christianity with your mind.

In many ways that's like trying to understand Beethoven's Fifth Symphony using a spectrum analyser. You can watch the pretty lights flicker all you want, but until you actually hear the music you can never be moved by it.

Isa 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
Isa 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

[dljc]

1.) Because I'm not convinced by the evidence and contrary evidence.
2.)Because of Christians.Muslims.Buddhist.Hindus. most all religions really.
3.)Because He wont speak to me (In a way that I recognize).
4.)Because of the Bible1.)1 Corinthians 2:14 comes into play.
2.)When one looks at God from the natural man POV it's hard to tell the One True God from the false ones isn't it? Christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
3.) He's been speaking to you every time any one of us gave you Scripture. Haven't you been listening?
4.) You're going to have to explain or expand on this this one.
thanks for thatYou're welcome. :)

[DaniHansen]

My prayer for you, sir, is that God will give you revelation of His Son. And that His grace and mercy will be abundant upon you. Because He speaks to us through Jesus only. That is how you will recognize God. And know. Why settle for something your brain can conjure up? You can't make this stuff up. Because God is real. And, He loves you. :)

[oscarkipling]

I was mostly telling you my experience, Oscar.

I really wasn't suggesting anything other than gaining some insight or even an "understanding" of how Christianity operates, won't do you any good until you follow your heart.

Your heart may lead you, but you can also lead it.
Ultimately, what you purpose in your heart will determine your path.

Only you can figure out what you'll do.
Richard


alright, thanks richard

[oscarkipling]

Oscar, reading through this thread I couldn't help but notice how you seem to be trying to understand Christianity with your mind.

In many ways that's like trying to understand Beethoven's Fifth Symphony using a spectrum analyser. You can watch the pretty lights flicker all you want, but until you actually hear the music you can never be moved by it.

Isa 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
Isa 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

okay, i see, thanks tango

[oscarkipling]

1.)1 Corinthians 2:14 comes into play.


I see, yes this is a problem.


2.)When one looks at God from the natural man POV it's hard to tell the One True God from the false ones isn't it? Christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship with God through Jesus Christ.


yes, I guess it is difficult to tell indeed. Christianity certainly seems to meet the criteria for religion. But I guess that's just my interpretation of the information presented to me.



3.) He's been speaking to you every time any one of us gave you Scripture. Haven't you been listening?


oh okay then, I guess I'm just not listening.


4.) You're going to have to explain or expand on this this one.
You're welcome. :)


Essentially the same as my first point. Things presented in the Bible, if taken literally, contradict other evidence. I haven't read the whole thing, but so far it also very easy to misinterpret or reinterpret..lots of interpretation. Also it doesn't seem to have the kinds of insights that separate it from other bibles and books...i've said this before. but look i see what you are saying, I'm not going to get anywhere unless I go ahead and believe all of this stuff.

[oscarkipling]

My prayer for you, sir, is that God will give you revelation of His Son. And that His grace and mercy will be abundant upon you. Because He speaks to us through Jesus only. That is how you will recognize God. And know. Why settle for something your brain can conjure up? You can't make this stuff up. Because God is real. And, He loves you. :)

thanks danihansen

[oscarkipling]

EDIT:

okay hows this?
of course this would only be a piece of the mechanism, but would it be accurate to say?

we are born with our 5 natural senses, which we use to detect the world...that is how we develop truths about the natural world. When you become a Christian, you gain the ability to perceive the spiritual world through some sensation apart from, but not wholly unlike the natural 5 senses in facility and functionality (with training vigilant practice).

please note that this is not an attempt to explain the entire phenomena of spiritual understanding, I just wanted to determine if this would be an accurate statement about the spiritual revitalization that occurs when a person becomes a Christian.

[dljc]

okay hows this?
of course this would only be a piece of the mechanism, but would it be accurate to say?

we are born with our 5 natural senses, which we use to detect the world...that is how we develop truths about the natural world. When you believe in God, you gain another sense, which is able you detect supernatural things. So then as a Christian you can sense spirits and whatnot, like a person senses photons with his eyes.Oscar, thank you for your previous answers, we'll go ahead and move on to your new version of the original question. Let me ask you to read this passage and you tell me what happened and why ok. (In other words what do you see in this passage?)

Acts 5:1-11
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

[Richard H]

okay hows this?
of course this would only be a piece of the mechanism, but would it be accurate to say?

we are born with our 5 natural senses, which we use to detect the world...that is how we develop truths about the natural world. When you believe in God, you gain another sense, which is able you detect supernatural things. So then as a Christian you can sense spirits and whatnot, like a person senses photons with his eyes.
Hi Oscar, :)
Just to clarify: It isn’t whether you believe that God exists that “does it”.

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. Heb 11:6

What is that reward? ‘Forgiveness and true righteousness through faith in His Messiah and eternal life through the Holy Spirit.

You are sort of correct, but if I were to say so you might conclude that the Holy Spirit is a sixth-sense. He is not.
Being born—again, means that you are a new creation – co existing in the physical world and in the spiritual realm – now alive to God.
Mostly, we only perceive the physical world and not the spiritual. See the last Scripture Ref at the bottom.

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Corrinthians 15:42-50

Those born only once are born into the physical world.

Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
John 3:3-8
(note the part about the wind and also being able to “see” the kingdom)

Receptivity to the things of the Holy Spirit is present in all believers, but sensitivity to the Spirit may take time to develop.
It’s not like: BANG – you have everything all at once.
Having found Christ (He “finds” us), we’re called to follow Him and continue seeking His will through His wisdom and righteousness.

And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 8:23-30

So can Christians see spirits? It is a possibility, but my answer would be a resounding no.
Do Christians have a sixth-sense? No.
Do we now have the potential to perceive the things (will) of God and even a bit of His wisdom at times? Yes.
Has he quickened (brought to life) our human spirits, so we’re now able to attune ourselves with Him – allowing His good will to flow to others? Yes.

For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
Romans 8:16

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Corinthians 13:12

Is it all magical and paranormal? No, but it IS supernatural. :saint:

Richard

[oscarkipling]

Oscar, thank you for your previous answers, we'll go ahead and move on to your new version of the original question. Let me ask you to read this passage and you tell me what happened and why ok. (In other words what do you see in this passage?)


you're welcome, I edited the post , so check it out.


Acts 5:1-11
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

as far as I can tell one of these things happened.

1.)-God killed a man and his wife for lying to him.

2.)-A man and his wife died from the guilt of lying to God.

3.)-A man and his wife committed some sort of suicide by intentionally releasing the ghosts from their bodies....

3a) As a sacrifice in order to appease God

3b) Because they didn't want to face the shame

[oscarkipling]

Hi Oscar, :)
Just to clarify: It isn’t whether you believe that God exists that “does it”.

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. Heb 11:6

What is that reward? ‘Forgiveness and true righteousness through faith in His Messiah and eternal life through the Holy Spirit.

You are sort of correct, but if I were to say so you might conclude that the Holy Spirit is a sixth-sense. He is not.
Being born—again, means that you are a new creation – co existing in the physical world and in the spiritual realm – now alive to God.
Mostly, we only perceive the physical world and not the spiritual. See the last Scripture Ref at the bottom.

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Corrinthians 15:42-50

Those born only once are born into the physical world.

Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
John 3:3-8
(note the part about the wind and also being able to “see” the kingdom)

Receptivity to the things of the Holy Spirit is present in all believers, but sensitivity to the Spirit may take time to develop.
It’s not like: BANG – you have everything all at once.
Having found Christ (He “finds” us), we’re called to follow Him and continue seeking His will through His wisdom and righteousness.

And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 8:23-30

So can Christians see spirits? It is a possibility, but my answer would be a resounding no.
Do Christians have a sixth-sense? No.
Do we now have the potential to perceive the things (will) of God and even a bit of His wisdom at times? Yes.
Has he quickened (brought to life) our human spirits, so we’re now able to attune ourselves with Him – allowing His good will to flow to others? Yes.

For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
Romans 8:16

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Corinthians 13:12

Is it all magical and paranormal? No, but it IS supernatural. :saint:

Richard
i edited my post in order to clarify what i was talking about

[dljc]

you're welcome, I edited the post , so check it out.



as far as I can tell one of these things happened.

1.)-God killed a man and his wife for lying to him.

2.)-A man and his wife died from the guilt of lying to God.

3.)-A man and his wife committed some sort of suicide by intentionally releasing the ghosts from their bodies....

3a) As a sacrifice in order to appease God

3b) Because they didn't want to face the shameThank you Oscar, I have to get ready for church, but I'll respond later ok. :) Believe it or not, I also want to thank you for helping me with the message the Lord has given me to deliver today. :hug: I will share this with you later also, in a PM if you have them turned on. :)

[Richard H]

EDIT:

okay hows this?
of course this would only be a piece of the mechanism, but would it be accurate to say?

we are born with our 5 natural senses, which we use to detect the world...that is how we develop truths about the natural world. When you become a Christian, you gain the ability to perceive the spiritual world through some sensation apart from, but not wholly unlike the natural 5 senses in facility and functionality (with training vigilant practice).

please note that this is not an attempt to explain the entire phenomena of spiritual understanding, I just wanted to determine if this would be an accurate statement about the spiritual revitalization that occurs when a person becomes a Christian.
IMO No. Not a sensation. :)

[oscarkipling]

IMO No. Not a sensation. :)

do you consider sight a sensation?

[Richard H]

do you consider sight a sensation?
Not usually, although the concept of the brains interpretation of reflected light is not different from the interpretation of sound or the nerve impulses we know as touch, pain, and even pleasure.

So, I suppose sight is a sensation.

[oscarkipling]

Not usually, although the concept of the brains interpretation of reflected light is not different from the interpretation of sound or the nerve impulses we know as touch, pain, and even pleasure.

So, I suppose sight is a sensation.

okay, but still no spiritual sensation analogous to that?

because that's all i was really getting at.

[Richard H]

okay, but still no spiritual sensation analogous to that?

because that's all i was really getting at.
No. Such an experience is possible through a gift of the Holy Spirit, but this is not the norm.

Gotta reboot.

[DaniHansen]

Well, your 5 senses help you experience and interact with your physical environment, right?

What do you think it would take to help you interact with God, who is Spirit?

[RoadWarrior]

EDIT:

okay hows this?
of course this would only be a piece of the mechanism, but would it be accurate to say?

we are born with our 5 natural senses, which we use to detect the world...that is how we develop truths about the natural world. When you become a Christian, you gain the ability to perceive the spiritual world through some sensation apart from, but not wholly unlike the natural 5 senses in facility and functionality (with training vigilant practice).

please note that this is not an attempt to explain the entire phenomena of spiritual understanding, I just wanted to determine if this would be an accurate statement about the spiritual revitalization that occurs when a person becomes a Christian.

Have you been studying Augustine? This was one of the first things he struggled with. He called it the "mind's eye", apart from any of the senses.

He was able only once to see into that realm, and that briefly. But having seen it once, he knew it existed. No training or vigilant practice ever allowed him to see it again. But all his writings after that experience are what they are because of that experience.

As Christians we walk by faith. There is no way really to compare it to the natural senses. The ability to perceive the spiritual is not an on-going thing, like seeing or hearing, if that is what you are getting at.

[oscarkipling]

No. Such an experience is possible through a gift of the Holy Spirit, but this is not the norm.

Gotta reboot.

oh alright, thanks

[oscarkipling]

Well, your 5 senses help you experience and interact with your physical environment, right?

yes that's how i see it



What do you think it would take to help you interact with God, who is Spirit?

What I am trying to do is to attempt to evaluate the situation as if there were some necessity for a supernatural component to interact with a God as described by the Bible. So Given those parameters, I think that in order for the interaction to work in the manner that I've come to understand Christians here believe that it works, There must be some defined and uniform mechanism to allow for this interaction. My attempts to describe the characteristics of the spiritual mechanisms are here in this thread. I believe that although the interactions may be expressed and appear in vastly different ways, I'm not ready to conclude that there is no underlying uniformity.


So I guess what I'm saying is that the spiritual requirements for interacting with a spiritual being are your rules and I don't actually think that they are needed at all. Personally I don't think a person needs anything that they don't have already, outside of some belief or ideas, which are metaphysical objects in themselves because I don't think that God as described in the Bible actually exists. The very idea that God needs a person to do anything in order for them to hear or interact with him seems to be contradicted by accounts in the Bible. To my understanding God could at any point create a situation in which he could directly interact with the material world consequently human beings in a way that requires absolutely nothing on our behalf. I am aware of certain Christian reasoning as to why these types of interactions don't commonly occur, but they are wholly possible and seem to preclude any actual need for conscious effort to believe or acquire some transcendent spiritual attributes.

[oscarkipling]

Have you been studying Augustine? This was one of the first things he struggled with. He called it the "mind's eye", apart from any of the senses.

He was able only once to see into that realm, and that briefly. But having seen it once, he knew it existed. No training or vigilant practice ever allowed him to see it again. But all his writings after that experience are what they are because of that experience.

As Christians we walk by faith. There is no way really to compare it to the natural senses. The ability to perceive the spiritual is not an on-going thing, like seeing or hearing, if that is what you are getting at.


nope I don't recall reading any Augustine, but mind eyes and spiritual experiences and all that jazz are something I think about and read about sometimes.

is it faith if you know its true?

[itzme]

No time to read five pages of posts, but in regard to the OP, Carl Jung address many of the questions you have, and there are many Christian writer who echo his ideas.

[oscarkipling]

No time to read five pages of posts, but in regard to the OP, Carl Jung address many of the questions you have, and there are many Christian writer who echo his ideas.

Jung, Howso?

more words

[RoadWarrior]

nope I don't recall reading any Augustine, but mind eyes and spiritual experiences and all that jazz are something I think about and read about sometimes.

is it faith if you know its true?


If you have not read Augustine, have you read the Platonist philosophers, or the neo-Platonists?

[itzme]

Spriritual understanding is the end product of a Christian receiving and processing spiritual information. Spiritual information is infallible and is readily accessible to every Christian. Spiritual information is irretrievable and incomprehensible by natural means. The written word of God contains spiritual information that cannot be detected or processed by a non-believer. Spiritual information cannot be conveyed between a believer and a non-believer; any attempts will fail to retain the original data or logical integrity. Spiritual information cannot be received read processed or stored physically, the mechanism by which a Christian can receive and process spiritual information is a separate “spiritual mind” that is appropriated by or interfaced with by the believer upon believing....or I guess upon salvation is more appropriate.

So my questions are about the interface and the minds.

Is the spiritual mind local, or is it a single spiritual mind (server/mainframe) and Christians are the terminals?

How do these minds interface with each other?

What kind of information is shared between them?

Is the physical/natural mind a subset of the spiritual mind (I mean does the spiritual mind understand the physical world but not vice versa)?

I know that many Christian psychologist do not like Jung since he is universalist, but he is one of the founding fathers of modern psychology so his thoughts do influence our modern thinking. Even if Jung and Campbell were at times hostile to Christianity, it does not mean we cannot understand the gist of their thinking, and in some ways they were rephrasing some common Christian beliefs.

So,

"Spriritual understanding is the end product of a Christian receiving and processing spiritual information"

"Spiritual information is infallible and is readily accessible to every Christian"

Christian-Holy Spirit gives understanding of the things of God, such understanding is a gift of God

Jung-Understanding of God's (and Jung would use the term God loosely) nature is understandable just because as humans we are "built" to understand it.

Jung-Not a gift of the Holy Spirit, but an intrinsic spiritual state of human kind.

Not so much a contradiction, both say such understanding exists, Christians from George Fox, Christian Universalists on say much the same. Me I go with the Romans text that says we know God's rules, nature ect because we were made by God. I like C.S. Lewis where he says it is obvious that we have an underlying belief of what is wrong and right and appeal to the to uphold that ideal.

"The written word of God contains spiritual information that cannot be detected or processed by a non-believer. Spiritual information cannot be conveyed between a believer and a non-believer; any attempts will fail to retain the original data or logical integrity."

I would have to disagree with that, one God is approachable by unbelievers or else none of us would ever find him in the first place. Also, long before we ever had a written Bible God expected humans to follow him. Classic line being to Cain,""Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

Jung-Archetypes are knowable to all because they are an expression of God's character, though of course the are but a pale shadow as something we as finite beings could ever hope of truly beholding.

Christians-Moses had to "see" God obliquely, ditto Job, Paul through a glass darkly, C.S Lewis the world as only a pale reflection of God.

"the mechanism by which a Christian can receive and process spiritual information is a separate “spiritual mind” that is appropriated by or interfaced with by the believer upon believing....or I guess upon salvation is more appropriate. "

Jung would say that the decision to meditate on or ignore Archetypes would be our choice

Me, I would say the the Holy Spirit is a gift from God to Christians to understand the ways of God, look at the different names of the Spirit to see this explained.

Finally;
"Is the spiritual mind local, or is it a single spiritual mind (server/mainframe) and Christians are the terminals?

How do these minds interface with each other?

What kind of information is shared between them?

Is the physical/natural mind a subset of the spiritual mind"

Too much to write;
Jung read "Archetypes of the Collective Unconscious", "Alchemy of Psychological Transformation"

Christians read up on;
Christian Gnosis (not the Roman/Creek influenced writing, but some of the Christian texts), Middle Ages Christian Alchemists There are many good Catholic writers as well, not so many Protestant ones.

In short I would say that while Jung was not a Christian writers his themes can be found in many prominent Christian writers who in turn helped shape Christian theology.

[oscarkipling]

I know that many Christian psychologist do not like Jung since he is universalist, but he is one of the founding fathers of modern psychology so his thoughts do influence our modern thinking. Even if Jung and Campbell were at times hostile to Christianity, it does not mean we cannot understand the gist of their thinking, and in some ways they were rephrasing some common Christian beliefs.

So,

"Spriritual understanding is the end product of a Christian receiving and processing spiritual information"

"Spiritual information is infallible and is readily accessible to every Christian"

Christian-Holy Spirit gives understanding of the things of God, such understanding is a gift of God

Jung-Understanding of God's (and Jung would use the term God loosely) nature is understandable just because as humans we are "built" to understand it.

Jung-Not a gift of the Holy Spirit, but an intrinsic spiritual state of human kind.

Not so much a contradiction, both say such understanding exists, Christians from George Fox, Christian Universalists on say much the same. Me I go with the Romans text that says we know God's rules, nature ect because we were made by God. I like C.S. Lewis where he says it is obvious that we have an underlying belief of what is wrong and right and appeal to the to uphold that ideal.

"The written word of God contains spiritual information that cannot be detected or processed by a non-believer. Spiritual information cannot be conveyed between a believer and a non-believer; any attempts will fail to retain the original data or logical integrity."

I would have to disagree with that, one God is approachable by unbelievers or else none of us would ever find him in the first place. Also, long before we ever had a written Bible God expected humans to follow him. Classic line being to Cain,""Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

Jung-Archetypes are knowable to all because they are an expression of God's character, though of course the are but a pale shadow as something we as finite beings could ever hope of truly beholding.

Christians-Moses had to "see" God obliquely, ditto Job, Paul through a glass darkly, C.S Lewis the world as only a pale reflection of God.

"the mechanism by which a Christian can receive and process spiritual information is a separate “spiritual mind” that is appropriated by or interfaced with by the believer upon believing....or I guess upon salvation is more appropriate. "

Jung would say that the decision to meditate on or ignore Archetypes would be our choice

Me, I would say the the Holy Spirit is a gift from God to Christians to understand the ways of God, look at the different names of the Spirit to see this explained.

Finally;
"Is the spiritual mind local, or is it a single spiritual mind (server/mainframe) and Christians are the terminals?

How do these minds interface with each other?

What kind of information is shared between them?

Is the physical/natural mind a subset of the spiritual mind"

Too much to write;
Jung read "Archetypes of the Collective Unconscious", "Alchemy of Psychological Transformation"

Christians read up on;
Christian Gnosis (not the Roman/Creek influenced writing, but some of the Christian texts), Middle Ages Christian Alchemists There are many good Catholic writers as well, not so many Protestant ones.

In short I would say that while Jung was not a Christian writers his themes can be found in many prominent Christian writers who in turn helped shape Christian theology.


well this is a pretty interesting take you have here. I have read CS Lewis' "Mere Christianity" at the suggestion of one ..or some of the members here, I cant say that I thought of Jung...but I don't think you were using Lewis as an example....anyway Do you have some Jungy Christian authors to recommend because i'd much rather read a Christian's interpretation of Jung than try to reinterpret Jung from a christian perspective myself. Thanks

[itzme]

There are many who do not like him, just because he is universalistic, but he was the founder of much of modern psychology, much more than Freud. I myself would not go to him for moral guidance, but IMHO his framework of thoughts than be very conducive for Christian meditation. I always liked what Rick Warren said,"Eat the fish, spit out the bones."

Modern Christian writer influenced by his works would be Thomas Moore, Morton Kelsey.

Books on the subject;

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q8M14jxoX4wC&pg=PA21&dq=Carl+Jung+and+Christian+spirituality&sig=ACfU3U0dzCDbFRnPBBF-EQYA6qayhBsKtg#PPA4,M1

List of books;
http://www.innerexplorations.com/catjc/jcbib.htm

This is the book I would like to read;
Carl Jung and Christian Spirituality

Modern Christian Psychologists would be Menrith-Meyer of the famous personality test.

Any modern Christian Writer who has investigation Christian Alchemy and Christian Gnostism as a process towards holiness (Alchemy of course is an alegory), again eat the fish spit out the bones.

[oscarkipling]

There are many who do not like him, just because he is universalistic, but he was the founder of much of modern psychology, much more than Freud. I myself would not go to him for moral guidance, but IMHO his framework of thoughts than be very conducive for Christian meditation. I always liked what Rick Warren said,"Eat the fish, spit out the bones."

Modern Christian writer influenced by his works would be Thomas Moore, Morton Kelsey.

Books on the subject;

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q8M14jxoX4wC&pg=PA21&dq=Carl+Jung+and+Christian+spirituality&sig=ACfU3U0dzCDbFRnPBBF-EQYA6qayhBsKtg#PPA4,M1

List of books;
http://www.innerexplorations.com/catjc/jcbib.htm

This is the book I would like to read;
Carl Jung and Christian Spirituality

Modern Christian Psychologists would be Menrith-Meyer of the famous personality test.

Any modern Christian Writer who has investigation Christian Alchemy and Christian Gnostism as a process towards holiness (Alchemy of course is an alegory), again eat the fish spit out the bones.


alright, I see where you are coming from, fishbones. I see that using Jung-like tools and abstractions could help to build an entirely different, but mechanically similar model that a person could use to describe facets of Christianity....the synthesis of ideas is really is our gift and our curse at times. anyhow thanks

[DaniHansen]

We all have our own reasons for not wanting to believe in God, and/or for not being able/willing to trust Him. We all have our own walls that we allow to either be dismantled, or not. And no amount of explanations will make us willing to step past them. It has to come by conviction.

Edited because my original post was a bit too personal and probably has no place here ...

[oscarkipling]

We all have our own reasons for not wanting to believe in God, and/or for not being able/willing to trust Him. We all have our own walls that we allow to either be dismantled, or not. And no amount of explanations will make us willing to step past them. It has to come by conviction.



I've heard this or something similar quite a few times, I don't understand why you and others believe this when there are Christians o this board who claim to have been convinced to accept Jesus based on explanations...also what do you mean by conviction?...that whole statement.

[itzme]

alright, I see where you are coming from, fishbones. I see that using Jung-like tools and abstractions could help to build an entirely different, but mechanically similar model that a person could use to describe facets of Christianity....the synthesis of ideas is really is our gift and our curse at times. anyhow thanks

I guess you are right, it is a bit of a curse, but on the other hand being able to take an idea apart like an intricate jig-saw puzzle is fulfilling as well. It is not the main diet of any Christian I suppose though, even I have to admit it does not come down to being able to manipulate ideas. Deciding to believe is a leap into the unknown, and no amount of breaking it down really is able to fully define what is really out there. Course that would be Gnosis and that would lead us back to Jung.........:spin:

[oscarkipling]

I guess you are right, it is a bit of a curse, but on the other hand being able to take an idea apart like an intricate jig-saw puzzle is fulfilling as well. It is not the main diet of any Christian I suppose though, even I have to admit it does not come down to being able to manipulate ideas. Deciding to believe is a leap into the unknown, and no amount of breaking it down really is able to fully define what is really out there. Course that would be Gnosis and that would lead us back to Jung.........:spin:

yep, another member on this board Slynx described it to me as "moral certainty", I liked that idea. Determining to a degree that I felt was morally sufficient to accept something as truth through the use of the tools that I have at my disposal. I dug that, so I do indeed continue to dig.

[itzme]

yep, another member on this board Slynx described it to me as "moral certainty", I liked that idea. Determining to a degree that I felt was morally sufficient to accept something as truth through the use of the tools that I have at my disposal. I dug that, so I do indeed continue to dig.

I have to agree I like complicated ideas like my above Jung/C.S Lewis ideas, but when it came to making up my mind on other things I think I did start simple.

For example (and for me this was one of the first questions I thought about) the question,"What is man? Is he a mere animal, or is there more to man than simple animal behavior? Is man simply a continuum from the animal or is he in a different level of behavior?" That is a simpler question. Then I deliberately did not bring in anyone elses ideas, I just set up simple axioms and when from then, then perhaps a simple if....then statement and test that with the axioms. Very simple making sure it could stand....and so on.

That was the cake, Jung was simply the icing.

[DaniHansen]

I've heard this or something similar quite a few times, I don't understand why you and others believe this when there are Christians o this board who claim to have been convinced to accept Jesus based on explanations...also what do you mean by conviction?...that whole statement.

I can point you to the Savior, and tell you all about Him. But, I can't make Him real to you. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. That is conviction. When Jesus goes from being a mental concept, or no concept at all, to reality. Like, oh, there You are! I was blind, and now I see!

[oscarkipling]

I have to agree I like complicated ideas like my above Jung/C.S Lewis ideas, but when it came to making up my mind on other things I think I did start simple.

For example (and for me this was one of the first questions I thought about) the question,"What is man? Is he a mere animal, or is there more to man than simple animal behavior? Is man simply a continuum from the animal or is he in a different level of behavior?" That is a simpler question. Then I deliberately did not bring in anyone elses ideas, I just set up simple axioms and when from then, then perhaps a simple if....then statement and test that with the axioms. Very simple making sure it could stand....and so on.

That was the cake, Jung was simply the icing.

Thanks for the insight on your process.

[oscarkipling]

I can point you to the Savior, and tell you all about Him. But, I can't make Him real to you. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. That is conviction. When Jesus goes from being a mental concept, or no concept at all, to reality. Like, oh, there You are! I was blind, and now I see!

oh okay, thanks Danihansen

[Evangelist Smith]

These are things as I understand them, so if it’s out of line with Christianity then tell me so.

Spriritual understanding is the end product of a Christian receiving and processing spiritual information. Spiritual information is infallible and is readily accessible to every Christian. Spiritual information is irretrievable and incomprehensible by natural means. The written word of God contains spiritual information that cannot be detected or processed by a non-believer. Spiritual information cannot be conveyed between a believer and a non-believer; any attempts will fail to retain the original data or logical integrity. Spiritual information cannot be received read processed or stored physically, the mechanism by which a Christian can receive and process spiritual information is a separate “spiritual mind” that is appropriated by or interfaced with by the believer upon believing....or I guess upon salvation is more appropriate.

So my questions are about the interface and the minds.

Is the spiritual mind local, or is it a single spiritual mind (server/mainframe) and Christians are the terminals?

How do these minds interface with each other?

What kind of information is shared between them?

Is the physical/natural mind a subset of the spiritual mind (I mean does the spiritual mind understand the physical world but not vice versa)?

I Cor.1

Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:


But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;


But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men


But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty

And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are


That no flesh should glory in his presence.





Rom.11
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Isa.55
For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.



Hope this helps u out my friend..

God bless
Evang.dare

[oscarkipling]

I Cor.1

Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:


But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;


But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men


But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty

And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are


That no flesh should glory in his presence.





Rom.11
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Isa.55
For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.



Hope this helps u out my friend..

God bless
Evang.dare

yes thank you this helps me tremendously

[Evangelist Smith]

yes thank you this helps me tremendouslyWell praise the Lord Oscar! Isnt He good? Yes amen so good, we none deserve a thing, not a thing..

God bless
Evang.dare