Questions from an athiest

[tyger_tyger]

First off I am a non religious person from a non-religious society, I just wanted to ask some Christians a few questions but I didn't want to offended my Christian friends by asking them so I thought a message board seemed like the ideal place. I'm not trying to dis you or anything, I'm just trying to make sense of your beliefs.

Well this all started because I thought I'd read the bible to see what the fuss was about. I read Genisis and was very shocked at how immoral it was. It's all sex all the time, not just with wives but with wives servants, concubines, maids etc etc. Then I got up to the bit about Sodom and Gomorrah and I was very confused by the moral of the story as it basically says homosexuality is bad (hence the burning city) but incest is ok (Lot and his daughters have sex to carry on his line). Is this what I am meant to take away from the story or am I missing something? Does it change later on and say polyogomy/incest is bad?

I then read a bit more and found a whole bunch of random advice such as don't wear clothes that are a wool linen blend, dont plant more than one kind of seed in your vineyard, dont eat shrimp or pigs etc. Do Christians still hold true to these things or are they sort of over looked? I never noticed the Christians at school wearing special clothes, but I have one friend does refuse to eat pork or bacon. Is this personal choice?

Anyway having read parts of the bible (I got bored and skipped a chunk in the middle. The plot really picks up when Jesus arrives though) I now can't understand why people take it so literally sometimes (eg no sex before marriage, no divorce, no gay marriage etc) when it's clearly full of some underlying useful morals (eg being nice) and then a bunch of random stuff about seafood and wool linen blend clothing etc. How do you figure out the important stuff from the rubbish? Like it's pretty obvious to me, but everyone is different.

And one last thing, the bible has always been used to discriminate certain minority groups- eg Aparthied in south africa, mixed marriages in America, womens rights to vote etc. I see obvious links between this and whats going on now in America with the whole discriminating gay people. How do you justify it or do you think thats wrong too? Do you think in 50 years people will look back at this time and see Christian Americans as being just as discriminating as we see Christian Americans in the 1950s as being?

Again I'm not religious so I'm sorry if I sound offensive but I'd love some answers. This has been a long post sorry... lol and I haven't even gone into evolution yet ;). I'll save that for another post.

[daughter]

Hey Tyger Tyger, nice name!

Just to let you know, your post is likely to be moved to the "Christians Answer" thread in the near future. This is where the Christians pop in to answer questions from non Christians. Don't worry about having posted on the wrong bit of the board, I was always making mistakes when I started off, and to be honest, right now I'm in the wrong bit of the board, on account of the fact I'm not a "young adult" (I'm thirtyseven.)

Also, when we're moved to the appropriate forum, I'll be really happy to answer your questions - which aren't rude, or offensive, if asked in a genuine spirit of interest. Looking forward to seeing you round, and answering at least some of your questions.

My name's Mary by the way - I take it you're a Blake fan?

[ServantofTruth]

Hi, i'll answer a little of your post.

2 Timothy 3:16 is a very important verse. It tells us the whole bible is of benefit to Christians for a few different reason - perhaps you could take a look at that verse?

However non Christians and new believers sometimes think this means everything that anyone does in the bible - God approves of. He certainly doesn't!

Lot is an interesting bible charactor, generally a 'good' man. But why was he living near these evil towns and people, even if he was not taking part in their evil deeds? Why did he offer his 2 daughters to protect the 2 angels?

There are reasons, like the obligation of hospitality for example. But this is NOT an excuse and no where does God agree with this action. It is a sin.

Next after Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt, Lot sleeps with his 2 daughters and starts 2 races of people. Again God does not agree with this action and it is very interesting we never hear of Lot again in Genesis. He leaves the story there. Nothing he did for the rest of his life is recorded, so God didn't want us to know - hardly a positive vote on Lot's action.

Somethings in the Old Testament are developed in the New by Jesus and his followers. But homosexuality/ lesbianism is clearly repeated as a sin. For only one example look at Romans chapter 1:verses26-27.

I found many things in the bible i use to disagree with, when thinking as a non believer and when new in Christ. However the Spirit of God slowly reveals God's truth and help us become a new person.

When you find problems for you, like the ones above - try looking closely, Did God say he approved of the action you think wrong? You have a God given mind/ concience. Often it will be right, though i warn not always - because we live in satan's world and he controls many things that we learn from while growing up.

Lastly Jesus wasn't trying to set up a religion - but we'll look at that later. :) SofTy.

[daughter]

First off I am a non religious person from a non-religious society, I just wanted to ask some Christians a few questions but I didn't want to offended my Christian friends by asking them so I thought a message board seemed like the ideal place. I'm not trying to dis you or anything, I'm just trying to make sense of your beliefs.
Hello again.

Just wanted to say, I'm glad you came by here. It sounds like you're a nice person, you are certainly considerate of your friends feelings, and respectful enough to go out of your way not to hurt them. That's a nice quality. Maybe your friends wouldn't be offended if you discussed faith issues with them, but you know them and we don't. The gesture you've made coming here is appreciated though.

Well this all started because I thought I'd read the bible to see what the fuss was about. Gosh, I remember starting to read the Bible when I was... twelve I think. At the time I wasn't Christian (though I thought I was because I got dragged to mass) and I remember having the exact same reaction when I read Genesis. In fact, I remember feeling physically sick when I read about what Lot's daughter's did to him.

Exodus wasn't too bad... though there were bits of it which made me think God was a bit of a bully (death of first born, and what did the Egyptian cattle ever do to deserve a murrain anyway?) and first time I tried, I gave up in Leviticus, because the description of slaughter and sacrifice was so appalling I couldn't stand any more. I simply didn't understand the context, and decided that the OT was just weird stuff from the dark ages that had no relevance to me whatsoever.

I read Genisis and was very shocked at how immoral it was. It's all sex all the time, not just with wives but with wives servants, concubines, maids etc etc. Then I got up to the bit about Sodom and Gomorrah and I was very confused by the moral of the story as it basically says homosexuality is bad (hence the burning city) but incest is ok (Lot and his daughters have sex to carry on his line). Is this what I am meant to take away from the story or am I missing something? Does it change later on and say polyogomy/incest is bad? As I said above, I really do know where you're coming from with that! But, it's worth remembering that there is no value judgement on what Lot's daughters do to him. It's simply recounted as an ugly episode, something that happened... and when you see the nations descended from that incestous rape (because that is what it is) you can see that a curse did descend from the act. In other words, the rape of Lot is not described as a good thing. It's an ugly event in a life that went tragically down hill. I'll go into more detail about the story of Lot later... I want to look at the rest of your post first. But just to let you know, you'll get a lot of detail and response here, because you raise good and valid questions.


I then read a bit more and found a whole bunch of random advice such as don't wear clothes that are a wool linen blend, dont plant more than one kind of seed in your vineyard, dont eat shrimp or pigs etc. Do Christians still hold true to these things or are they sort of over looked? I never noticed the Christians at school wearing special clothes, but I have one friend does refuse to eat pork or bacon. Is this personal choice?
It's personal choice... I am a vegan, so I don't eat or wear anything from animals. But that's how I choose to honour God's creation - others choose differently.

Anyway having read parts of the bible (I got bored and skipped a chunk in the middle. The plot really picks up when Jesus arrives though) I now can't understand why people take it so literally sometimes (eg no sex before marriage, no divorce, no gay marriage etc) when it's clearly full of some underlying useful morals (eg being nice) and then a bunch of random stuff about seafood and wool linen blend clothing etc. How do you figure out the important stuff from the rubbish? Like it's pretty obvious to me, but everyone is different. The stuff about seafood, pork and linen makes sense in context. For example, even today lots of people have allergic reactions to shellfish. Not surprising when you consider that most shrimp, for example, feed on faeces, and dead rotting things. The Israelites didn't know that (not being deep sea divers) but God did know, and advised them accordingly. No refrigeration in those days, and no IV drips to administer intravenous fluids and medications in case of food poisoning or anaphelactic shock. Regarding pigs... very nice animals (well, I like them) but they are prone to carrying parasites of a very nasty nature. Again, in the desert, you're going to want to be careful what you eat. Pigs are not herbivores, they'll eat anything, so not safe for us to eat. The advice against wool blends is used metaphorically to demonstrate the seperation between Israel and the other nations.


And one last thing, the bible has always been used to discriminate certain minority groups- eg Aparthied in south africa, mixed marriages in America, womens rights to vote etc. I see obvious links between this and whats going on now in America with the whole discriminating gay people. How do you justify it or do you think thats wrong too? Do you think in 50 years people will look back at this time and see Christian Americans as being just as discriminating as we see Christian Americans in the 1950s as being?
The Bible has been misused to discriminate against different people groups, sure. But that doesn't mean that those who did so were Christians... nowhere in the Bible is there a word to suggest that there are different "races" - just different nationalities. The Bible is quite clear that we are all descended from the same parents, we are one family - as the New Testament points out, we are all one "blood."

There is a difference between discriminating against nationalities and homosexuality, for example. (By the way, I'm an ex bisexual, so I'm conscious of the concerns of the homosexual community.) A nationality is defined by it's shared heritage, history, language, culture. As a kid growing up in the seventies, I was an Irish girl with an Irish accent, living in England. As an Irish girl I was "thick", "dirty", "bad tempered", "lazy." Those were all characteristics commonly ascribed to Irish people. In the seventies this prejudice was very marked (it's all but disappeared now, there are other people groups at the sharp end of the stick unfortunately.) I had bricks and fireworks thrown at me, (still have a bald patch on my head where one burnt the scalp) and of course the inevitable name calling.

When I went to Oxford part of the "fitting in" involved showing how unindoctrinated and free spirited I was, and it was strange joining a persecuted "minority" (bisexuals) who had a great social scene, and weren't being stoned and set on fire. Things may be different in the US, but I do get the feeling from my own experience of the gay "scene" that most of the bullying and violence comes from within the community to it's own members. The main thing to point out though is that nobody has any choice whether they are born into an Irish family, or a Jewish family, or a Chinese family, or an African family... but you do (at least in my experience) have some choice in whether you're going to indulge in homosexual behaviour. Remember too that I know it's compulsive when you get into it, and for a while I believed I had no choice, that's "just the way I was." But it turns out, it really wasn't. If homosexuality wasn't a choice, the acronym "LUG" (lesbian until graduation) would never have been invented. (A lot of ambitious young women at Oxford, and I presume elsewhere, wanted to sate their sexual desires, but not run the risk of pregnancy, and ended up hooking up with other women as a result. Of the "lesbians" I knew at university, most, including myself and my ex, got married later on and had children.)

Anyway, that carried on a bit long, but the point is, although I don't like the holier than thou attitude some people take towards homosexuals, they are being judged on their behaviour, not their nationality, so it's not the same thing as "using the Bible to justify apartheid." And homosexuality is a choice, and if you believe the Bible, which I do, it is a sin. You could start another thread on that in here as well... it's a topic in itself.


Again I'm not religious so I'm sorry if I sound offensive but I'd love some answers. This has been a long post sorry... lol and I haven't even gone into evolution yet ;). I'll save that for another post. You've not offended me, and I hope I haven't offended you. You're right, it's a long post, with a lot of meaty questions in it, and I hope you can wade through my long reply.

Hope to see you again soon. :D

[markinro]

First off I am a non religious person from a non-religious society, I just wanted to ask some Christians a few questions but I didn't want to offended my Christian friends by asking them so I thought a message board seemed like the ideal place. I'm not trying to dis you or anything, I'm just trying to make sense of your beliefs.

Well this all started because I thought I'd read the bible to see what the fuss was about. I read Genisis and was very shocked at how immoral it was. It's all sex all the time, not just with wives but with wives servants, concubines, maids etc etc. Then I got up to the bit about Sodom and Gomorrah and I was very confused by the moral of the story as it basically says homosexuality is bad (hence the burning city) but incest is ok (Lot and his daughters have sex to carry on his line). Is this what I am meant to take away from the story or am I missing something? Does it change later on and say polyogomy/incest is bad?

I then read a bit more and found a whole bunch of random advice such as don't wear clothes that are a wool linen blend, dont plant more than one kind of seed in your vineyard, dont eat shrimp or pigs etc. Do Christians still hold true to these things or are they sort of over looked? I never noticed the Christians at school wearing special clothes, but I have one friend does refuse to eat pork or bacon. Is this personal choice?

Anyway having read parts of the bible (I got bored and skipped a chunk in the middle. The plot really picks up when Jesus arrives though) I now can't understand why people take it so literally sometimes (eg no sex before marriage, no divorce, no gay marriage etc) when it's clearly full of some underlying useful morals (eg being nice) and then a bunch of random stuff about seafood and wool linen blend clothing etc. How do you figure out the important stuff from the rubbish? Like it's pretty obvious to me, but everyone is different.

And one last thing, the bible has always been used to discriminate certain minority groups- eg Aparthied in south africa, mixed marriages in America, womens rights to vote etc. I see obvious links between this and whats going on now in America with the whole discriminating gay people. How do you justify it or do you think thats wrong too? Do you think in 50 years people will look back at this time and see Christian Americans as being just as discriminating as we see Christian Americans in the 1950s as being?

Again I'm not religious so I'm sorry if I sound offensive but I'd love some answers. This has been a long post sorry... lol and I haven't even gone into evolution yet ;). I'll save that for another post.

Is this how you read other books ? In Cool Hand Luke, did you skip the parts you didn't like and come away with a completely different conclusion ? How about the Great Gatsby, Romeo and Juliet, The Grapes of Wrath, Gone with the Wind or others ?

It will take a while but you need to read the entire the bible and one of the issues is that you will only take it for what it says, not the overall purpose - to lead the lost to Christ.

The bible is the Word of God. Jesus Christ is the Word made incarnate. It is "God breathed". For you to properly understand His word requires salvation. Until then it will only be "just a book".

Its great that you read at least part of it. I would suggest starting with the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John), the psalms and proverbs. I would also suggest you not read too much in one sitting. God has this habit of speaking volumes in just a few sentence. Some teachers, like John McArthur can speak for hours on just a few words.

Make a reading plan: 1 psalm, 1 proverb and 1 page from the gospels. Just like other books, you need to know who is speaking, who are they speaking to, the setting, etc. All those things you learned in high school.

Have fun.

[mcgyver]

First off I am a non religious person from a non-religious society, I just wanted to ask some Christians a few questions but I didn't want to offended my Christian friends by asking them so I thought a message board seemed like the ideal place. I'm not trying to dis you or anything, I'm just trying to make sense of your beliefs.

First of all, Welcome!!!

We'll be happy to answer anything we can!

Well this all started because I thought I'd read the bible to see what the fuss was about. I read Genisis and was very shocked at how immoral it was. It's all sex all the time, not just with wives but with wives servants, concubines, maids etc etc. Then I got up to the bit about Sodom and Gomorrah and I was very confused by the moral of the story as it basically says homosexuality is bad (hence the burning city) but incest is ok (Lot and his daughters have sex to carry on his line). Is this what I am meant to take away from the story or am I missing something? Does it change later on and say polyogomy/incest is bad?Good questions: The bible is a brutally honest book...doesn't "whitewash" anything...as you've already noticed.

As such, many times incidents are simply recounted...not necessarily that they're either good or right...but that they happened. If you'll look at it again, you'll find that what happened between Lot and his daughters was not condoned in any way...in fact the story as recounted in Gen 19 bespeaks of conspiracy (between the two daughters), the result of drunkeness (Lot)...and the consequences...both Moab and Ammon were enemies of Israel farther on down the line.

I then read a bit more and found a whole bunch of random advice such as don't wear clothes that are a wool linen blend, dont plant more than one kind of seed in your vineyard, dont eat shrimp or pigs etc. Do Christians still hold true to these things or are they sort of over looked? I never noticed the Christians at school wearing special clothes, but I have one friend does refuse to eat pork or bacon. Is this personal choice?Briefly, these were part of the laws given by God to the nation of Israel. The thing that made Israel unique at this time is that they were a people that had been brought into a special covenant of God, a covenant of God's laws. Not any pagan deities' laws...but God's law.

As these laws pertained to Israel, they are not binding upon Christians today; even as they were not binding upon the Gentile nations then.

Anyway having read parts of the bible (I got bored and skipped a chunk in the middle. The plot really picks up when Jesus arrives though) I now can't understand why people take it so literally sometimes (eg no sex before marriage, no divorce, no gay marriage etc) when it's clearly full of some underlying useful morals (eg being nice) and then a bunch of random stuff about seafood and wool linen blend clothing etc. How do you figure out the important stuff from the rubbish? Like it's pretty obvious to me, but everyone is different.The "higher moral laws" of God (e.g. fornication, adultery, divorce, et.al) are certainly in force today...in fact, Jesus "raised the bar" on them all (for example OT adutery was a physical act, NT adultery can be committed in the heart).

To really answer you here, it would probably be better to start another thread concerning a particular issue that's bothering you. :)

And one last thing, the bible has always been used to discriminate certain minority groups- eg Aparthied in south africa, mixed marriages in America, womens rights to vote etc. I see obvious links between this and whats going on now in America with the whole discriminating gay people. How do you justify it or do you think thats wrong too? Do you think in 50 years people will look back at this time and see Christian Americans as being just as discriminating as we see Christian Americans in the 1950s as being?Well, I'd be the first to admit that things have been done in the name of Christianity and the Bible that have nothing to do with either.

However...it is not a sin to be born with a certain color of skin, nor to be born a woman; but Homosexuality is a sin, and has always been one...that has not changed. Once again, a subject for a different thread due to the dynamics involved.

Again I'm not religious so I'm sorry if I sound offensive but I'd love some answers. This has been a long post sorry... lol and I haven't even gone into evolution yet ;). I'll save that for another post.And again, glad you're here...welcome and ask away!

[ConqueredbyLove]

Anyway having read parts of the bible (I got bored and skipped a chunk in the middle. The plot really picks up when Jesus arrives though)

Hey! I beat you! I read through the whole Bible, King James Version, no less before I got saved :) Just thought I would add that because it seems most atheists I "meet" on these boards are very intelligent.

Welcome to you and I am so glad you are here :hug: It tickled me, your statement that you thought you would read the Bible to find out what the fuss is about. I have never heard that one before ;) God is fun! Each individual in the human race is so different from every one else...

Anyway....You hit the nail on the head in your above statment: "The plot really picks up when Jesus arrives though" That is a profound statement!

All of the other issues you mention are in the Bible for a reason, but the central issue of Christianity is Who is this Jesus of Nazareth? Is He Who He claimed to be? Did He do what no other man ever did? Where did He come from? Where did He go? What is He like?

Ah, dear soul...may you find the answers to those questions and find the greatest LIGHT and LOVE of all time and find the Joy of all of our hearts!:hug:

[tyger_tyger]

Wow thanks for all the fast responses guys, very interesting to see your views indeed. For those interested I actually do talk about religion with my friends, but I just don't like to talk about the details that I find weird (eg the Lot-cest) incase they think I'm ripping into them. At school we studied religion and we had some quite good class dicussions, though surprisingly the Christians stay quiet most of the time (which is stupid coz we tend to say some fairly ignorant things that they could set us straight on).

Anyway that clears up the whole Lot thing for me pretty much, so cheers for that.

To markinor, no when reading one book I tend to read it start to end however the bible isn't one book (well to me anyway), it's a series of stories. On top of that you must admit that the writing isn't exactly brilliant as it's not meant to be some best seller novel, it's meant to be a guide to life.

I owe a thank to daughter to moving my post to the right place (ah lolz i suck) and also for her decent length answers.


The stuff about seafood, pork and linen makes sense in context. For example, even today lots of people have allergic reactions to shellfish. Not surprising when you consider that most shrimp, for example, feed on faeces, and dead rotting things. The Israelites didn't know that (not being deep sea divers) but God did know, and advised them accordingly. No refrigeration in those days, and no IV drips to administer intravenous fluids and medications in case of food poisoning or anaphelactic shock. Regarding pigs... very nice animals (well, I like them) but they are prone to carrying parasites of a very nasty nature. Again, in the desert, you're going to want to be careful what you eat. Pigs are not herbivores, they'll eat anything, so not safe for us to eat. The advice against wool blends is used metaphorically to demonstrate the seperation between Israel and the other nations.


This is quite interesting to me, as I am from New Zealand and in Maori culture they have things that are 'tapu' or sacred. It's really random stuff; not allowing certain people in the kumara patch, not sitting on tables, not sitting on pillows etc. I always thought it was irrational until it was explained to be that in pre-European times these all served practical purposes (if you dug up the kumara before they were ready the tribe would go hungry, if you sit on a table or pillow without clothes its unhygienic etc). It seems that this is also true for a lot of the random stuff in the bible and perhaps streches across many cultures.



There is a difference between discriminating against nationalities and homosexuality, for example. (By the way, I'm an ex bisexual, so I'm conscious of the concerns of the homosexual community.)
...
When I went to Oxford part of the "fitting in" involved showing how unindoctrinated and free spirited I was, and it was strange joining a persecuted "minority" (bisexuals) who had a great social scene, and weren't being stoned and set on fire. Things may be different in the US, but I do get the feeling from my own experience of the gay "scene" that most of the bullying and violence comes from within the community to it's own members. The main thing to point out though is that nobody has any choice whether they are born into an Irish family, or a Jewish family, or a Chinese family, or an African family... but you do (at least in my experience) have some choice in whether you're going to indulge in homosexual behaviour. Remember too that I know it's compulsive when you get into it, and for a while I believed I had no choice, that's "just the way I was." But it turns out, it really wasn't. If homosexuality wasn't a choice, the acronym "LUG" (lesbian until graduation) would never have been invented. (A lot of ambitious young women at Oxford, and I presume elsewhere, wanted to sate their sexual desires, but not run the risk of pregnancy, and ended up hooking up with other women as a result. Of the "lesbians" I knew at university, most, including myself and my ex, got married later on and had children.)


I have to admit I lol'd a bit when I read 'ex bisexual'. I guess here isn't the place for a full on debate on it, but for a bisexual it's a lot easier to simply ignore and repress one set of urges as you can still live a happy and fulfilling life, have kids, have a partner etc. If you were completely gay (as in a 6 in the Kinsley scale. Or is it a 0? I never remember which end is which) you would probably find it harder. I suppose I could be an ex-bisexual myself if I wanted to be, but I'm happy with who I am and wont turn full on lesbian just yet (lol the last bit was a joke...)

Thanks for your help though daughter. We have much in common; Blake, veganism and bisexuality! Creepy. And my family are Irish... maybe we're really the same person, but one of us is from the future. That'd be real trippy.

Cheers for all your guys help, and also one follow up question:
Do you make your own interpretation of the bible or does your church/pastor generally do it for you and you just kind of go along with their ideas?

[tt1106]

First off I am a non religious person from a non-religious society, I just wanted to ask some Christians a few questions but I didn't want to offended my Christian friends by asking them so I thought a message board seemed like the ideal place. I'm not trying to dis you or anything, I'm just trying to make sense of your beliefs.

Well this all started because I thought I'd read the bible to see what the fuss was about. I read Genisis and was very shocked at how immoral it was. It's all sex all the time, not just with wives but with wives servants, concubines, maids etc etc. Then I got up to the bit about Sodom and Gomorrah and I was very confused by the moral of the story as it basically says homosexuality is bad (hence the burning city) but incest is ok (Lot and his daughters have sex to carry on his line). Is this what I am meant to take away from the story or am I missing something? Does it change later on and say polyogomy/incest is bad?

Lot and his daughters were infected with the immorality of Sodom and Ghemorrah. You cannot live in that proximity to that kind of immorality and not be corrupted.Just because Lot and his family were obedient and fled when God commanded them to, does not mean that they were followers of God or without Sin. His wife was killed when she disobeyed.

I then read a bit more and found a whole bunch of random advice such as don't wear clothes that are a wool linen blend, dont plant more than one kind of seed in your vineyard, dont eat shrimp or pigs etc. Do Christians still hold true to these things or are they sort of over looked? I never noticed the Christians at school wearing special clothes, but I have one friend does refuse to eat pork or bacon. Is this personal choice?

This is the law to the Jews and is God's law of obedience to the chosen people. Jews that are not Christian still keep this law as I understand it.
Alot of the societal laws became irrelevant when Christ became the sacrifice.
There was a reason for each of these rules. They are not random. ALL of them have a purpose in scripture.

Anyway having read parts of the bible (I got bored and skipped a chunk in the middle. The plot really picks up when Jesus arrives though) I now can't understand why people take it so literally sometimes (eg no sex before marriage, no divorce, no gay marriage etc) when it's clearly full of some underlying useful morals (eg being nice) and then a bunch of random stuff about seafood and wool linen blend clothing etc. How do you figure out the important stuff from the rubbish? Like it's pretty obvious to me, but everyone is different.

You have to read and understand the entire Bible. (although it may take a while :) ) The random stuff is not random at all.

And one last thing, the bible has always been used to discriminate certain minority groups- eg Aparthied in south africa, mixed marriages in America, womens rights to vote etc. I see obvious links between this and whats going on now in America with the whole discriminating gay people. How do you justify it or do you think thats wrong too? Do you think in 50 years people will look back at this time and see Christian Americans as being just as discriminating as we see Christian Americans in the 1950s as being?

There is no discrimination being perpetrated against homosexuals by Christians. Homosexuals enjoy the same rights as heterosexuals and Christians don't make all the laws, although they were very much involved with founding this country. It is Biblical truth that God does not approve of homosexuality, therefore Christians don't approve of it either. It is contrary to God's design for humanity.
I don't equate sufferage with Apartheid and mixed marriages.
Women may still vote and still submit to their husbands.
Please describe specific examples of discrimination of Gay people. The belief of God's people is that living a homosexual lifestyle is contrary to God's law and will result in Homosexuals being lost. Homosexuals who do not act on their fleshly desires and follow God's law will be saved. Repent and b forgiven.



Again I'm not religious so I'm sorry if I sound offensive but I'd love some answers. This has been a long post sorry... lol and I haven't even gone into evolution yet ;). I'll save that for another post.

Ps. I am not a biblical scholar, and I am a new Christian, so some of my responses may be different from others who have studied much more than I.

[tango]

Do you make your own interpretation of the bible or does your church/pastor generally do it for you and you just kind of go along with their ideas?

This one will probably get a few replies, and it will vary person to person and passage to passage.

Personally I find there are times that I read the Bible and conclude one thing, where someone else might read it and conclude another thing. Both of us may be able to justify our understanding using other parts of the Bible.

People with less understanding may ask someone else and accept their explanation. Those with more understanding are more likely to read more deeply, perhaps study the underlying Hebrew and Greek, and so on.

Parts of the Bible you won't find a lot of disagreement among Christians regarding include: we are sinners and fall short of God's standard (Rom 3:23), that God sent his son Jesus to be born of a virgin (Isa 7:14 / Luk 1:31-34), Jesus died on the cross (Mark 15:25) and rose again on the third day (John 20), and that whoever believes in him may have eternal life (John 3:16).

So your best bet is going to be to look at the fundamental message of Christianity and how it applies to you, rather than wondering how other people read their Bibles.

[markinro]

Wow thanks for all the fast responses guys, very interesting to see your views indeed. For those interested I actually do talk about religion with my friends, but I just don't like to talk about the details that I find weird (eg the Lot-cest) incase they think I'm ripping into them. At school we studied religion and we had some quite good class dicussions, though surprisingly the Christians stay quiet most of the time (which is stupid coz we tend to say some fairly ignorant things that they could set us straight on).

Anyway that clears up the whole Lot thing for me pretty much, so cheers for that.

To markinor, no when reading one book I tend to read it start to end however the bible isn't one book (well to me anyway), it's a series of stories. On top of that you must admit that the writing isn't exactly brilliant as it's not meant to be some best seller novel, it's meant to be a guide to life.

Cheers for all your guys help, and also one follow up question:
Do you make your own interpretation of the bible or does your church/pastor generally do it for you and you just kind of go along with their ideas?

To start, the bible has been the number 1 best seller for YEARS and it is ONE book. In its original form, it was written in a very continual fashion. The division of books, chapters and verses was not done until some time later. The bible is the innerant Word of God - NOT just a life guide (like those false prophets - Obama, Oprah and Dr. Phil to name a few). I doubt you will get anything out of the bible until you accept this and the only way that can happen is to put away foolish pride and realize you are lost without God in your life. I would still suggest you read the gospels, psalm and proverbs - no more 3 pages/day. These "books" are MUCH easier to understand then diving into Genesis and the Law.

For the last question, this is already spoken of in scripture. I don't have it in front of me but it goes "No one man is allowed his personal intepretation of God's word". We are commanded to study to show thyself approved. Also, scripture balances with itself. Very often, my pastor tells us to "check what he says against the scripture". Sometimes, we discover a new "application" to a passage of scripture.

For example, Jesus said on the cross "Father, why have you forsaken me".
It was not until many years later, Mr. HS revealed to me that at this singular moment in time. Something which has never happened and will never happen again - Jesus took MY sin upon Himself. God cannot look upon sin and He turned away from His own Son.

I would like to think the next words out of Jesus were "Forgive them, they know not what they do". In fact, this is one of those dual-application statements. It can be applied to those who nailed Him to the cross BUT it is more accurate to apply this to YOU and ME. Our sin put Him on the cross. It's OUR sin which prompted Jesus to selflessly offer up His life.

[Evangelist Smith]

You know friend we could sit here taking months to do it or more and pick scriptures out of the Bible to discuss,but you know what my friend, God Almighty does not promise me, you or anyone else another day, nor another breath..Boast not thyself of tomorrow for you know not what a day may bring forth..

It is Appointed unto man once to die and after this the Judgment

It is APPOINTED my friend..Each and everyone of us have an appointment with the Lord and not one of us knows when that set time is..

Now let me ask you this, if God would call your soul out into eternity today, do you know where you would spend your eternity?

If you have not been Born again it will not be in heaven

for the Word of God declares this to be so

The Word of God says this as well

Whosoever was NOT found written in the Lamb's Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire

listen my friend, God doesnt promise u me or anyone else another day and hell is full of those who thought they would see one

FULLLLLLLLLLL

Now let me ask you this, where do you want to spend your eternity
heaven or hell

God loves you, cares for you and made a way for you me and this whole world and not one of us have an excuse to perish

NOT ONE OF US

CHRIST JESUS DIED FOR ALL

And all who will repent of their sins trusting in Him will be forgiven and have eternal life

We must Obey the Gospel

Jesus Himself preached" Repent ye and Believe the Gospel"

What is the Gospel?

the Gospel you have heard, that Christ died for our sins and arose the third day according to the scriptures

why must I repent?

I tell you nay except ye repent ye shall all likewise perish

its that simple my friend and like I said earlier, we can he haw all day long around the scriptures but God says what He means and means what He says and we do not play with God

Hell is full of those who mocked HIs saving grace

FULL

And I pray that you will not become one of them

God's grace is there for you, all u need do is repent of your sins trusting in the blood He shed for your sins.

For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believeth in HIm would not perish but have everlasting life

For God so loved

He who hath the Son hath life and he who hath not the Son of God hath not life..1John 5:12

God bless
Evang.dare

[Sold Out]

TYGER:

There is a method to the madness of understanding scripture. Unfortunately, solid spiritual understanding is reserved only for believers.

1) You must learn to read scripture in context within it's original language. Anyone can pull out random verses and form an opinion or doctrine on it. I can take a bible and show that you should hang yourself and do it quickly. Point being, as with any reading, understanding the bible within context and original language is essential.

2) Understand that God is a God of order. That means you have to learn to read the bible chronologically. The bible you hold in your hand is NOT in chronological order. God wants us to search for truth and put it in order. Learn to understand scripture chronologically.

3) Learn to compare scripture with scripture. The Holy Spirit teaches by showing us other scriptures to shed light on the scriptures we are reading. (I Corinthians 2:13)

[tyger_tyger]

To start, the bible has been the number 1 best seller for YEARS and it is ONE book. In its original form, it was written in a very continual fashion. The division of books, chapters and verses was not done until some time later. The bible is the innerant Word of God - NOT just a life guide (like those false prophets - Obama, Oprah and Dr. Phil to name a few).

Um actually the Bible wasn't written all at once, lots of different people wrote it at different times and certain texts were pieced together by the Emperor Constantine to make one book. This is why you find things like the scripture of Mary which were left out. Here's the wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible#Christian_Bible

And by saying the bible isn't designed to be a best seller (though year, you're right it is often the top of best seller lists) is true. It isn't meant to entertain you or be a gripping read, its about more than that. You see it as the eternal word of god etc etc and I see it as a historical document and guide to life for people around 1st century AD.

[Xel'Naga]

Um actually the Bible wasn't written all at once, lots of different people wrote it at different times and certain texts were pieced together by the Emperor Constantine to make one book. This is why you find things like the scripture of Mary which were left out. Here's the wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible#Christian_Bible

And by saying the bible isn't designed to be a best seller (though year, you're right it is often the top of best seller lists) is true. It isn't meant to entertain you or be a gripping read, its about more than that. You see it as the eternal word of god etc etc and I see it as a historical document and guide to life for people around 1st century AD.

I don't believe he was claiming the Bible was written "all at once", but rather that the Bible, as we know it today, is a compilation of 66 books - 39 books of the Old Testament and 27 books of the New Testament.

The Bible, as I'm sure you know, was written over a period of about 1500 years, of course an accurate date is impossible. It was written by other 40 different authors in three different languages: Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek. If the wikipedia link states that Constantine pieced together the Bible then quite simply, Wikipedia is wrong (imagine that). Constantine commissioned the writing of Bibles, but he did not peice together "the Bible". Also you'll find that the Apocryphal works (which do not include the scripture of Mary, that is Gnostic in nature) was included in most Bible's up until the time of Martin Luther. The Gnostic gospels were not included in 'The Bible' because they were written up to after the events of Christ.

If you see the Bible as a guide for people c. 1st century AD, then with all do respect, please read it again. To be sure, the Bible is a guide for c. 1st century Christians... But it's also a guide for believers today. It's more than a guide though, as has been said; it's the eternal and absolute word of God.

[Duane Morse]

Um actually the Bible wasn't written all at once, lots of different people wrote it at different times and certain texts were pieced together by the Emperor Constantine to make one book.

...and I see it as a historical document and guide to life for people around 1st century AD.

And yet, the books were not compiled as a single work until much later than the 1st century AD - as you yourself noted.
Wouldn't that mean that the compiled works that comprise the Bible are meant for anyone, at any time - and not only for those in the 1st century AD?


I find it interesting that you see them as historical documents.

In your opinion:
Is the account of the creation of Adam (and the race of Man in general, for that matter), a true and accurate historical account?

Is the account of Noah and the flood?

Of Jesus' birth, life, death and resurrection?



And how about the events that have yet to unfold in our own perception of time and space?
As in, the events that are during and after Christ's next coming.
Which, if everything in the Bible is part of an historical document, should lead one to believe that history can be written before it actually happens (in this world that we currently perceive as 'reality', at least).

[daughter]

This is quite interesting to me, as I am from New Zealand and in Maori culture they have things that are 'tapu' or sacred. It's really random stuff; not allowing certain people in the kumara patch, not sitting on tables, not sitting on pillows etc. I always thought it was irrational until it was explained to be that in pre-European times these all served practical purposes (if you dug up the kumara before they were ready the tribe would go hungry, if you sit on a table or pillow without clothes its unhygienic etc). It seems that this is also true for a lot of the random stuff in the bible and perhaps streches across many cultures.

That's interesting... and it's a perfect anaology as well. Thank you! It's a bit like some of the rural Irish superstitions (which I won't go into now, since I don't go after them anymore.) I'll remember "tapu" for future reference.

Some of the rules were actually the first codified form of animal protection as well, if you're interested. Animals had to be VERY well treated, if you couldn't eat an animal that had been injured. And the whole thing that happens in modern society with baby cows being taken from their mother within a three days of birth never happened either. No cooking an infant in its mothers milk was as much as anything going to ensure that the mother had her child till weaned, allowing them to enjoy their natural bond, at least a little while. So something else to think about.



I have to admit I lol'd a bit when I read 'ex bisexual'. I guess here isn't the place for a full on debate on it, but for a bisexual it's a lot easier to simply ignore and repress one set of urges as you can still live a happy and fulfilling life, have kids, have a partner etc. If you were completely gay (as in a 6 in the Kinsley scale. Or is it a 0? I never remember which end is which) you would probably find it harder. I suppose I could be an ex-bisexual myself if I wanted to be, but I'm happy with who I am and wont turn full on lesbian just yet (lol the last bit was a joke...)
I used to think the same thing... and I should point out that I didn't "repress" my bisexuality. It just disappeared. Somewhere or other I've got a description of the shock I got when I realised I was no longer lusting after other women. Literally, I realised the Thursday I got saved (I accepted Jesus on Monday) that I hadn't once looked at a woman to lust after her in my heart. And that was a relief, because I blush easily, and had been very troubled by compulsive and embarassing thoughts. My husband could read me like a book, and he realised something had changed as well.

Thanks for your help though daughter. We have much in common; Blake, veganism and bisexuality! Creepy. And my family are Irish... maybe we're really the same person, but one of us is from the future. That'd be real trippy.
That made me lol! I'm your evil nemesis. Now, if we were both called Sarah Connor, you might be onto something...