Geiste questions (Afterlife)

[geiste37]

A thought that just came to my mind. Do animals and plants go to heaven and hell? I mean they are forms of life and if the soul exists who's to say that animals and/or plants don't have one. If they do how is it decided if they go to heaven or hell? They do not possess the human concept of evil so can't commit sin. They just do what is needed to survive. They also do not worship god and if that is the requirement to get into heaven does that mean they are all going to hell? Like I said this is just a thought that popped into my head.

[markdrums]

A thought that just came to my mind. Do animals and plants go to heaven and hell? I mean they are forms of life and if the soul exists who's to say that animals and/or plants don't have one. If they do how is it decided if they go to heaven or hell? They do not possess the human concept of evil so can't commit sin. They just do what is needed to survive. They also do not worship god and if that is the requirement to get into heaven does that mean they are all going to hell? Like I said this is just a thought that popped into my head.

That's really a good question. And it's good to see you thinking about things like that.

My answer is this; Yes, there WILL be animals & plants in Heaven... just as there are animals & plants on Earth today.
The New Heaven / New Earth will be a physical place, like we have now. Only it will be restored in complete perfection.

I don't know that animals "GO" to Heaven.... because the Bible doesn't specifically make a point to mention it... but we know there will be animals.

Plants, even though they're living things, are inanimate. They don't make choices in life, or have a conciousness. So, NO. Plants aren't going to Heaven or Hell. They just exist for food, or materials, or shelter... etc. They're here for our use.

:)

[geiste37]

another thought: If the only need to get into heaven is to believe in god, what about people who were never presented with the concept of god? Would they go to hell for nothing? What about people like Hitler who did a lot of evil but believe in god? Or those who do a lot of good and don't believe? Is this a fair concept from a fair god?

[mcgyver]

another thought: If the only need to get into heaven is to believe in god, what about people who were never presented with the concept of god? Would they go to hell for nothing? What about people like Hitler who did a lot of evil but believe in god? Or those who do a lot of good and don't believe? Is this a fair concept from a fair god?

First of all, I think you're operating from a faulty premise here on several levels.

First "believing in God" is not enough. Salvation happens when one places their faith and trust in Jesus Christ. In other words, they "receive" Christ as their Savior and Lord. This involves admitting that we have sinned, repenting (turning away) from that sin, and humbling ourselves before Him.

James writes: (James 2:19) "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!"

He made a way for our sins to be forgiven some 2000 years ago on a cross. Remember that when compared to the absolute Holiness of God...that there is none "good", because it is God's standard by which we are measured.

Now let me preface the second part with what we are told is (part) of the nature of God.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (emphasis mine)

and in Jeremiah 29:13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

God desires that all should come to repentance, and has said that if one searches for Him, He will make Himself known to that person, He will make the way of salvation evident.

Every single person who has ever lived has been born with an innate knowledge of God, because God Himself has put it there (cf. Romans 1). We could refer to it as a God shaped hole, as it were.

I've talked to many atheists, and I daresay that if one were to peel back the veneer, one would find that hole...at sometime in their lives they realized that there was someone or something bigger than themselves...perhaps when the were little children...but yet it is there, for God placed it there.

Instead of searching for God though, they have chosen (for a myriad of reasons) to instead reject Him.

In doing so, their hearts become hardened to His call and gentle prompting...and they perish. When you think about it, no one will be able to say that they didn't get a "fair shake" from God.

[markdrums]

another thought: If the only need to get into heaven is to believe in god, what about people who were never presented with the concept of god? Would they go to hell for nothing? What about people like Hitler who did a lot of evil but believe in god? Or those who do a lot of good and don't believe? Is this a fair concept from a fair god?


It's not quite like that.... ;)

It's more than just believing in God, or a god, or God's existence.
It's accepting & believing in the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross.
It's trusting in HIM as our means of forgiveness & grace.
It's a matter of WANTING to have that relationship with God, & turning away from things that we know are wrong.

Now, that doesn't mean we will be "sin free" or expected to be sin free. THAT would be impossible for any of us. (Which is why Jesus' sacrifice was necessary. HE did the impossible FOR us.)

I'm not sure how many people have never / or will never be presented with the "concept of God"..... Especially with today's communication technology. And the ability to travel pretty much anywhere.

But Evil people who JUST believe in God's existence, will receive their due punishment & judgment.

Non-believers who are "good, nice, helpful people" won't be in Heaven. Even if someone is "nice" - and live a "good" life, that doesn't mean they WANT a relationship with God.

Example: You are probably a nice person; helpful, friendly, & all that stuff. But if you don't want to have a relationship with God, & don't want to have anything to do with him at all, then would you want to spend an ETERNITY in his presence? Against your personal wishes / choice?
That wouldn't be "Heaven" to you. To be dragged into God's presence against your will, for all eternity, would be WORSE THAN Hell to a non-believer.

Your choice to have a relationship with God, or not, will be honored.

Does that make sense?

Basically, God loves you SOOOO much, that he is willing to respect your choice. Even if it's a choice to reject him. He won't force you into Heaven against your will.

[geiste37]

Not to sound like I want to debate this, but I want to interject one thing here. I cannot speak for others but I myself do not reject god. I just don't believe he exists. I don't reject Zeus because I don't believe he exists. To say one rejects god is to say that they believe in him and chooses to not worship him. At least that is what it would seem to me. Like I said I do not want to start a debate. This is just so you know more about where I stand on the matters.

[geiste37]

Another clarifying note: I'm by no means saying that this is a stance that all theists take. Usually just the ones who try to use Pascal's Wager. Just so you know I'm not unfairly grouping anyone into a single stance.

[VerticalReality]

Not to sound like I want to debate this, but I want to interject one thing here. I cannot speak for others but I myself do not reject god. I just don't believe he exists. I don't reject Zeus because I don't believe he exists. To say one rejects god is to say that they believe in him and chooses to not worship him. At least that is what it would seem to me. Like I said I do not want to start a debate. This is just so you know more about where I stand on the matters.

We fully understand your declaration . . .

It is stated by many. However, you are no different than any other person throughout history when it comes to this issue. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, at some point or another in their life is drawn to God's call and they have the knowledge of God within them. Some accept that call and begin to seek further after God and some reject that call and choose to deny and reject Him, which is why you currently make the statement that you, "don't believe He exists." You came to this declaration because you had that knowledge of God in you only to try to reason out His existence in your mind. The Word of God speaks of this same thing very clearly . . .

Romans 1:18-21
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

The knowledge of God has been placed within ALL people. However, some choose, as the Scriptures above declare, to reject that knowledge of God and suppress it in unrighteousness.

[geiste37]

Well that time for me must not yet have come, because I have never felt anything out of the ordinary in me. I will admit that if I could feel that something in me then it would help to prove to me god's existence. If it does happen I will be sure to let you know.

[markinro]

A thought that just came to my mind. Do animals and plants go to heaven and hell? I mean they are forms of life and if the soul exists who's to say that animals and/or plants don't have one. If they do how is it decided if they go to heaven or hell? They do not possess the human concept of evil so can't commit sin. They just do what is needed to survive. They also do not worship god and if that is the requirement to get into heaven does that mean they are all going to hell? Like I said this is just a thought that popped into my head.

No, humans are unique. Man is the only creation with a spirit. From Adam going forward. Any men/women before Adam did not have a spirit. Animals also do not have a spirit. There is the physical body, the soul (i.e. feelings/emotions) and the spirit.

[markdrums]

Not to sound like I want to debate this, but I want to interject one thing here. I cannot speak for others but I myself do not reject god. I just don't believe he exists. I don't reject Zeus because I don't believe he exists. To say one rejects god is to say that they believe in him and chooses to not worship him. At least that is what it would seem to me. Like I said I do not want to start a debate. This is just so you know more about where I stand on the matters.


Tell ya what, I'll be blunt & totally honest here.

Not believing that God exists, (or believing he DOESN'T exist) IS rejecting him. You're choosing to not believe, even after people like me, & others here, have given you some of the basic information.
We've been sharing small bits with you, trying to point you in the direction of being able to find the evidence yourself.
So, yes, you are rejecting him.

Let me recommend a book. (You can also find a downloadable MP3 online that pretty much just gives you the "meat" of the book -so to speak.)
Frank Turek- "I don't have enough Faith to be an atheist".

Also- "The Case for a Creator" - by Lee Strobel.

Lee was an atheist. His whole mission was to debunk Christianity & prove ther Bible is false. So he went out & aquired as much information as he could find. But, having a REAL, "free thinking mind" & being wise enough to make his choice based on evidence, or lack thereof, he realized that there was TOO MUCH credible evidence in support of the Bible & the existence of God. Evidence that crumbled all of his foundations for being an atheist.

I'm not saying that either of these books will have the same effect on you. But if you're even a little bit curious to know if you might currently be wrong, I'd suggest you check them out. Something that the two of them have to say, just might lead you to "feel something out of the ordinary" concerning your current stance.

One last thing.... I can understand your view on Pascal's wager. Even to ME, it's a weak "argument"...

But just so you know, my personal beliefs & faith, aren't just "blind faith". It's faith based on EVIDENCE.

;)

[jponb]

Here is my question to you geiste37. What do you believe in? How do you suppose we got here? This seems like a good place as any to start.

[apothanein kerdos]

The soul isn't just an abstract spirit that resides in things with no use in it. The soul - as defined by almost all pre-modern thinkers from all religions - is that which is in us that makes us human. It is what makes us rational, intelligent, emotional, etc. It has contact with the physical world to the point that if the physical is improperly functioning, the soul cannot function properly as well (and vise versa). Much like a driver in a car - the driver directs and controls the car, but only as long as the car is functioning properly.

With the above in mind, non-human objects do not have a soul. The supposed emotions and intelligence (which is often more a humanization of these beings - there's little warrant to believe their emotions function the same way human emotions do) in animals does not lend enough evidence to believe they have souls.

[livingwaters]

geiste37 (http://bibleforums.org/forum/member.php?u=31454),



:pray::pray:ing that God soften your heart into belief and trust in
HIM. HE can do it. All through the Old Testament, HE says
HE will harden or turn a hard heart towards HIM!!!!:hmm:
So, even if you are saying you don't believe, HE has a plan
for your life. HIS wish is that none of us should perish(meaning
eternal death), but have everlasting life..So, that is my wish
for you, also....God Bless You!!! And HE Can:hug::idea:;)