If God knows all, how can he have emotions? [Archive] - BibleForums Christian Message Board and Forums

View Full Version : If God knows all, how can he have emotions?

RationalMind

Oct 16th 2008, 06:39 PM

markdrums

Oct 16th 2008, 06:59 PM

This is another idea that I just could never get past. The Greek and Roman gods exhibited all the human emotions, from lust to greed to envy to love to pride. They almost became symbols of such emotions.

But the Christian God is supposed to be all knowing. And from reading the Bible, you see God exhibit (at least) anger and happiness, if not other more subtle emotions. Plus, God changes his mind like when Moses talks him out of killing everyone in Exodus. He even tells the Israelites one time that they need to go ahead without Him because he might kill them if he goes with them.

How can someone who is all knowing change His mind, either through self refection or persuasion? He is already going to know how it ultimately turns out. And wouldn't someone all-knowing like God be able to control his emotions?

Interesting question....
:hmm:

The first thing off the top of my head is this:
We get OUR emotions from & because of God. He's not an emotionless entity.
However, with God's nature being total perfection, love, goodness, righteousness, holiness.... you might wonder where our emotions of hate, greed, lust, selfishness, depression etc. come from?

Just as giving us Free Will created the potential for evil & disobedience, it also created the potential for the listed "negative" emotions.

GOD is everything good, & loving. Everything Pure.
But, Lucifer's pride caused him to rebel & be cast out of Heaven & down to Earth, where he deceived Eve, and in turn, led to Adam's fall. Because of that, the rest of us inherited thos negative emotions as well, being under the curse of sin.

But don't forget, God didn't create a mess for us with no way out. He didn't just stick us here to tough it out, saying, "Oh well...". God provided a way to be free from the curse.

He never changed his mind.... he allowed People (like Moses or Abraham) to have, and MAKE a choice, in order to show their faith in God. Because of their faith, God spared those people from the potential outcome.
Sure, he already knew.... but THEY didn't. & Neither do we.
It still comes down to what choices WE make. The decision is all ours. Just because God already knows, doesn't mean he's void of feelings & emotion when we make that choice.

:)

livingwaters

Oct 17th 2008, 03:12 AM

Maybe HIS Word tells us that HE emotions to let us know how HE truly did and does LOVE US!!!!! I mean, HE had NO emotions, how could HE say HE loves us??? How would HIS Word be true in the scripture John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." That's my reasoning, anyways!!!!:hug:

God Bless:)

RationalMind

Oct 17th 2008, 12:56 PM

Dragonfighter1

Oct 17th 2008, 02:08 PM

Emotions create value. Without emotions there are no values. Logically God would not want to exist if he had no emotions because logically it is a waste of energy to exist. ( if existence is only logical.)

To go further: "I think therefore I am". Would have to be expanded to: "I think therefore I am, so what? I might as well not be."

Emotions are values that are appended to objects to make life valuable.

That sounds like circular reasoning a bit doesnt it?

I think you get my drift.

dljc

Oct 17th 2008, 03:33 PM

This is another idea that I just could never get past. The Greek and Roman gods exhibited all the human emotions, from lust to greed to envy to love to pride. They almost became symbols of such emotions.

But the Christian God is supposed to be all knowing. And from reading the Bible, you see God exhibit (at least) anger and happiness, if not other more subtle emotions. Plus, God changes his mind like when Moses talks him out of killing everyone in Exodus. He even tells the Israelites one time that they need to go ahead without Him because he might kill them if he goes with them.

How can someone who is all knowing change His mind, either through self refection or persuasion? He is already going to know how it ultimately turns out. And wouldn't someone all-knowing like God be able to control his emotions?RM,

I don't know if you have children or if you are even married. But just for the sake of the argument lets say you are and have at least one child.

Now, why do they sell those cabinet door lock devices, if children would listen to their parents and stay out from under the sink? Most people keep deadly poisons under their sink such as cleaners for various different things, that's the point of putting the child proof locks on the doors. Do you not know ahead of time that a child is going to want to see what's under the sink? Why did you have to tell the child not to go there or put locks on the doors?

Now, do you get upset when the child does what you've told them not to do? Why can't you control your emotions any better? You knew they were going to do it. Are you more loving and compassionate than He is? Are you more merciful and forgiving? What's that saying again....oh yeah, "No quarter given and none taken". That's pretty merciful and forgiving isn't it?

RationalMind

Oct 17th 2008, 05:00 PM

RM,

I don't know if you have children or if you are even married. But just for the sake of the argument lets say you are and have at least one child.

Now, why do they sell those cabinet door lock devices, if children would listen to their parents and stay out from under the sink? Most people keep deadly poisons under their sink such as cleaners for various different things, that's the point of putting the child proof locks on the doors. Do you not know ahead of time that a child is going to want to see what's under the sink? Why did you have to tell the child not to go there or put locks on the doors?

Now, do you get upset when the child does what you've told them not to do? Why can't you control your emotions any better? You knew they were going to do it. Are you more loving and compassionate than He is? Are you more merciful and forgiving? What's that saying again....oh yeah, "No quarter given and none taken". That's pretty merciful and forgiving isn't it?

Yup I have a toddler and yes, you are right about the poison and door locks and all. Even non-believers want to protect our children! :)

But I think the problem with your example is that you are comparing me to God. I'm really not comfortable with that because I do not claim to be all knowing or all powerful. But to take your example, of course I still get upset when my child does something I told her not do to. But knowing she is probably going to do it anyway, it does somewhat dull my anger. Its kind of like watching a favorite movie; you might know how it ends but you might still get misty eyed at the end (I can see Christians using this argument for God's emotions, actually - see, I can recognize both ends of a logical argument).

BUT what do I do when my daughter disobeys me? I give her a time out. How does God punish me when I disobey him? He says I will go to Hell and be tormented until the end of time. Its so disproportional that it boggles your mind. A teenager who struggles with religious issues and decides, for now, he doesn't believe in God - he's hit by a bus - bang, he goes right to Hell! I mean, its so out of line I couldn't accept that if I wanted to.

markdrums

Oct 17th 2008, 05:23 PM

Yup I have a toddler and yes, you are right about the poison and door locks and all. Even non-believers want to protect our children! :)

But I think the problem with your example is that you are comparing me to God. I'm really not comfortable with that because I do not claim to be all knowing or all powerful. But to take your example, of course I still get upset when my child does something I told her not do to. But knowing she is probably going to do it anyway, it does somewhat dull my anger. Its kind of like watching a favorite movie; you might know how it ends but you might still get misty eyed at the end (I can see Christians using this argument for God's emotions, actually - see, I can recognize both ends of a logical argument).

BUT what do I do when my daughter disobeys me? I give her a time out. How does God punish me when I disobey him? He says I will go to Hell and be tormented until the end of time. Its so disproportional that it boggles your mind. A teenager who struggles with religious issues and decides, for now, he doesn't believe in God - he's hit by a bus - bang, he goes right to Hell! I mean, its so out of line I couldn't accept that if I wanted to.

Ahhh yes... I can ASLO relate to having children! :)

I think you're taking dljc's post & making the point much bigger than necessary though. Let me explain-
It's true that WE as humans are not all-knowing. BUT we DO know more than our children. We know what's best for them, even if they don't understand it, or if they just plain disagree with us based on their opinions.

I also like your reference to knowing how a movie turns out, but still being affected emotionally by it. That is really an accurate description. At least to me anyway. I don't know for sure how GOD does it, but that's an idea that I can somewhat comprehend. ;)

The thing is, it still comes down to what each person individually chooses. If you choose to have a relationship with God in this life, then your choice will be honored & actualized for eternity. If you choose NOT to have that relationship, then the same is true. You won't be dragged into Heaven, into God's presence for all eternity, against your will. Logically speaking, THAT would be a far greater punishment than HELL itself.

Hell is not a place of eternal torture... which some people get the idea of. Hell is a place that is completely separated & void of God's presence. It's a REAL place.... Separated from his love & grace. It's TORMENT, not torture.
When you've had the experience of feeling love, & then it's gone, how emotionally tough is that? It sucks! Think of it as: either "burning" with love & compassion, or "burning" with despair, lonliness, emptiness etc...
It's the torment of never feeling loved again.... ever.

God does know all the decisions we will make. He already knows who will respond to his calling, & who won't.
BUT..... WE don't know who those people are. Some of them are going to be the LAST person you'd ever expect!

Hopefully what I said makes sense.... I'm trying to word it in a way that's maybe more relatable to you.... rather than just quoting scriptures that say such & such.
If I can explain it in an "every day" kind of way, maybe something will "click" for you. Because I know how frustrating it is when something JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE...... And maybe, just maybe, we can help make sense out of SOMETHING.
:)

paidforinfull

Oct 17th 2008, 06:00 PM

Yes, you are right - God does have emotions. We have been created in His image, and therefore we have emotions as well. The difference between our emotions and God's emotions is that ours can lead to sin, whereas God never sins (of course). Even when God gets angry it is a righteous anger, and He still deals with us justly although He is angry. False 'gods' were not and still aren't viewed as being perfect and just - they are usually portrayed as flawed, petty and ofttimes even nasty characters - more human than holy, and can never be compared to God, Creator of the universe.

Although God is all-knowing, Jeremiah recorded instances where God accused His people of things that has never even entered His mind. Look at the following verses:

Jer 7:31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire— something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.
Jer 19:5 They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

Jer 32:35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters {Or to make their sons and daughters pass through the fire} to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

Hmm........

It is important to realise that it is impossible for mere mortals to understand God completely. There are mysteries about Him that will only be revealed to us when we go to heaven.

God bless.

tt1106

Oct 17th 2008, 06:12 PM

dljc

Oct 17th 2008, 11:29 PM

Yup I have a toddler and yes, you are right about the poison and door locks and all. Even non-believers want to protect our children! :)

But I think the problem with your example is that you are comparing me to God. I'm really not comfortable with that because I do not claim to be all knowing or all powerful. But to take your example, of course I still get upset when my child does something I told her not do to. But knowing she is probably going to do it anyway, it does somewhat dull my anger. Its kind of like watching a favorite movie; you might know how it ends but you might still get misty eyed at the end (I can see Christians using this argument for God's emotions, actually - see, I can recognize both ends of a logical argument).

BUT what do I do when my daughter disobeys me? I give her a time out.How does God punish me when I disobey him? He says I will go to Hell and be tormented until the end of time. Its so disproportional that it boggles your mind. A teenager who struggles with religious issues and decides, for now, he doesn't believe in God - he's hit by a bus - bang, he goes right to Hell! I mean, its so out of line I couldn't accept that if I wanted to.RM,

First bold comments: We are talking about your child, don't you know from your own mistakes what theirs are probably going to be? Isn't it within your power as a parent to discipline this child? I'm not the one comparing you to God, you are the one comparing yourself to God.
How can someone who is all knowing change His mind, either through self refection or persuasion? He is already going to know how it ultimately turns out. And wouldn't someone all-knowing like God be able to control his emotions?
Underlined comments: Still comparing yourself to God. (You are more compassionate, more loving, more merciful, and forgiving).

RM, I look for the truth in what someone writes. Many times they don't want to accept that their own words reveal so much about their own heart. If we were more loving and compassionate than God, or more merciful and forgiving, the fact of the matter is, we wouldn't have needed a Savior.

But like a little child that goes under the sink where those poisons are, or a teenager who wants to do their own thing out of rebellion to the parents. An adult recognizes they probably knew that's what that child was going to do. There were signs it was going to happen, as an adult we had the opportunity to overlook it, or do something to correct the child. God is no different in this respect, that we as humans learn from our mistakes. God knows we'll make those mistakes, but lets us make them to learn from them. To see just how little compassion we have for our fellow man, and how little mercy or forgiveness we will have. Because in the end, we need Him. It's only through His love, compassion, mercy, forgiveness, goodness, patience, (and the list goes on), it's only through His love for us, that we understand what these things truly mean. If you are going to continue to compare yourself with Him, it would be helpful if you understood Who He is, and what He's really done for you. Jesus paid the price for your sins, so you wouldn't receive God's Wrath.

That's like your daughter doing the worst thing you could think of, and asking for your forgiveness, and you say, "Ok Sally I forgive you". Instead of suffering your wrath. Now let me show you something.

1. Rom. 3:10, "As it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one...'"

2. Rom. 3:23, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

3. Rom. 5:12, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

4. Rom. 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

5. Rom. 5:8, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

6. Rom. 10:9-10, "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

7. Rom. 10:13, "For whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."

Do you really think you can top what God did?

Romans 3:24-26
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

paidforinfull

Oct 18th 2008, 01:46 AM

But why couldn't God control his own emotions if he is all powerful? That seems like a big problem for that theory. Why would he be tired after Creation and take a rest?
Hi again, RationalMind - God is not taking a rest because He is tired.

He created the universe and everything in it, and once He was finished He stopped creating. He 'rested' from creating, but remains intimitely involved in His creation.

Mograce2U

Oct 18th 2008, 04:07 AM

This is another idea that I just could never get past. The Greek and Roman gods exhibited all the human emotions, from lust to greed to envy to love to pride. They almost became symbols of such emotions.

But the Christian God is supposed to be all knowing. And from reading the Bible, you see God exhibit (at least) anger and happiness, if not other more subtle emotions. Plus, God changes his mind like when Moses talks him out of killing everyone in Exodus. He even tells the Israelites one time that they need to go ahead without Him because he might kill them if he goes with them.

How can someone who is all knowing change His mind, either through self refection or persuasion? He is already going to know how it ultimately turns out. And wouldn't someone all-knowing like God be able to control his emotions?The channel for the grace & mercy of God is thru faith. The faithful respond to warning with repentance, whereas the disobedient continue in rebellion. Therefore there are two outcomes presented which are dependent upon the response of the pentitent. Which is why we pray according to God's will and not our own - to bring ourselves in line with His. God is not a tyrant but He does have a standard, and that standard is His own holiness. "Be ye holy for I am holy" is His declaration of His own nature. Problem is men are not holy because of sin. So unless God Himself does something to rectify that, man will not be able to stand in His presence and live. That is where the beauty of the gospel comes in. For those who put their trust in Christ and His work on the cross, forgiveness and redemption from sin will be granted and they will be given life in exchange for the penalty for sin which is death. But the rebellious will receive nothing except for the recompense due their stubborn refusal to obey. Its called Mercy according to Justice, whereby God the Father accepts the bail which Jesus has put forth on your behalf. And the bail He puts up is to take your penalty upon Himself. Now if you refuse that offer - there is no other offer available which can set you free and death and condemnation will be your lot instead. Unfortunately not everybody makes the right choice.

Scruffy Kid

Oct 18th 2008, 06:16 PM

Hi RationalMind!
Welcome to Bibleforums!! :hug:
It's great to have you here!!! :pp :pp :pp

Thanks, also, for your very thoughtful question -- thoughtful and important!

I want to say two things, mainly: (1) that "emotions" are, at least often, for us human beings, not just "emotional reactions" but in fact complex understandings of the meaning of the realities we face. Of course, just like understandings derived in other ways, they can often be erroneous; and (2) that when the Bible (or anyone else) speaks of God -- and all the more in describing his inner nature or "states of mind" -- it is (it would have to be, if speaking truly) speaking by analogy. (Christian philosophers have said that "nothing can be predicated of God save by analogy."

(1) Emotions are not (necessarily) mere superfluous feelings, but are (often) complex responses which contain and integrate vast amounts of data about the world to which they respond.

A wise friend once remarked to me that this was so. The more I have looked at life, the more I find this to be an important remark, that helps make sense of what I observe. (Everything I say here is a bit over-simplified, so as to keep the discussion to a manageable length: I'm trying to indicate lines of reasoning, or illustrate them, not flesh them out in full detail, nor put in all the relevant qualifications.)

When we see something, we are often struck by its beauty. This is a particular kind of emotion of approbation. While there are many aspects to beauty, one is that it often indicates a kind of deep order. Thus, famously, early 20th century physicists, and also their successors, said that, in formulating theories, a paramount consideration was "beauty in the equations." They had a sense -- a complex, and mathematically mediated sense -- of what the kind of order was that they characteristically perceived in nature, and relying upon that perception was important to discerning what kinds of theories were apt to be accurate ways of organizing data into theories which pan out, rather than being ways of organizing data which, at first, explained more data, but later turned out to be rather ad hoc generalizations.

Similarly, when I am working on technical or mathematical problems (of a less exalted sort), or building or repairing something, or working on an academic problem formulated in verbal rather than mathematical terms, I sense often that something "feels wrong" about a solution: it lacks the shape, or sense, that somehow seems appropriate. While of course these perceptions can not infrequently be erroneous, they are actually important guides which help me correct course and revise my ideas, or calculations, as I work on something.

In general, in a lot of media, the artist's eye or ear, often as informed by aesthetic considerations, turns out to be a far-seeing, or prescient one: a perception that gets at important facts, important phenomena or relationships, that aren't noticed until much later by those less aesthetically attuned.

Curiosity is another emotion. We are curious about some things, and less curious about others. The curiosity tells us where we should look to discover interesting things -- things that prove relevant to various matters we wish to consider. It draws us to look into things more closely. Thus (inter alia) it is giving us the results of complex cognitive processing -- i.e. rational insight -- of a myriad of facts, to tell us what to investigate to make further headway in our understanding of some matter.

Similarly, boredom is a kind of emotion: we are bored with something when it seems (in some way) irrelevant to us or to our concerns. It's over boredom that the wise friend referred to above first made this remark about emotions. I had listened at length to another friend tell me over the phone, about some things that bothered, or saddened, her. I felt bored. I was quite distressed at my boredom: it seemed to me callous, unloving, and so on. Why did I feel bored, rather than sympathetic, when told these things? I mentioned this to the wise friend (who didn't know the other person in question: anyhow I gave no name or particulars). The response was: "Well, boredom often is how we respond to irrelevant things. Were there reasons why you might have regarded what you were hearing as irrelevent" At once I saw that I thought that what my friend had told me over the phone was not what was really going on with her: it was a kind of superficial account of what was going on which she was telling herself to disguise from herself what the real issues were. That's why I'd felt it was irrelevant. The emotion of boredom was informing me that I needed to understand the ways in which the account I'd been listening to failed to accurately reflect the key realities of what was going on.

Thus, IMO, emotions are not in general some kind of emotionalistic overflow, some merely subjective reaction of like or dislike or rage, or fascination. They are subtle summary indications of overall evaluations our minds make of complex situations taken as wholes. (They are also, of course, action-oriented evaluations: they tend to point us toward ways in which we incline to respond to those situations.) The disgust or delight, fear or calm, which we feel about certain situations are reflecting our assessments of what those situations are like, and of how we ought to respond to them.

Needless to say, I'm not arguing for some alleged superiority of "emotions" over "reason", or ignoring the fact that emotions often lead us astray. Our aesthetic and other emotional senses of a situation are often wrong (although the same is often true of our calculations, or lines of reasoning). And emotions are particularly prone to lead to a kind of obsessive, stubborn, or irrational attachment to, or revulsion from, this or that which is quite unwarranted. Rather I'm trying to suggest that emotions, in general, are a part, and a necessary part, (though sometimes an ill-functioning part) of our proper abilities to understand various realities with which we are confronted.

Post is still under construction: please be patient!

Yup I have a toddler and yes, you are right about the poison and door locks and all. Even non-believers want to protect our children! :)

But I think the problem with your example is that you are comparing me to God. I'm really not comfortable with that because I do not claim to be all knowing or all powerful. But to take your example, of course I still get upset when my child does something I told her not do to. But knowing she is probably going to do it anyway, it does somewhat dull my anger. Its kind of like watching a favorite movie; you might know how it ends but you might still get misty eyed at the end (I can see Christians using this argument for God's emotions, actually - see, I can recognize both ends of a logical argument).

BUT what do I do when my daughter disobeys me? I give her a time out. How does God punish me when I disobey him? He says I will go to Hell and be tormented until the end of time. Its so disproportional that it boggles your mind. A teenager who struggles with religious issues and decides, for now, he doesn't believe in God - he's hit by a bus - bang, he goes right to Hell! I mean, its so out of line I couldn't accept that if I wanted to.

livingwaters

Oct 20th 2008, 03:30 AM

Let us disect ourselves!!! I wonder why we all do the stupid things we do??? I wonder why, even after we've told our children, "don't do that or this will happen, I know cause I already tried that," they just go right ahead and try it anyway...Hmmm.....I wonder why God still loves us soooo much, even when we act like idiots....I wonder why God loved us sooooo much way back then when HE sent HIS only Son to die for the sins of the world??? Hmmmmm...All I know, is that I love and obey the Lord to the best of my abilities, which still wouldn't be good enough without the blood of Jesus, and the best part is that HE loves me!!!! :pp:pp:pp:pp:bounce::bounce::idea::lol:

Come on, join the Kingdom!!!!! Praise the Lord..

tango

Oct 20th 2008, 12:46 PM

But why couldn't God control his own emotions if he is all powerful? That seems like a big problem for that theory. Why would he be tired after Creation and take a rest? Why would he force the Egyptian king to not change his mind just so he could send more torment to the Egyptians? Isn't that torture? Don't we usually associate torture with rage or sprite? I just can't get around the wiiiiide range of emotions God shows in the Bible that seem to match our own human emotions.

Firstly you're assuming God wanted to control his emotions in a way that you think is suitable. In other words you're saying you think God has got something wrong because you think he should be different. You might as well ask me why I don't dye my hair because you don't like my hair colour, apparently without considering that I might like it the way it is.

What you're saying about the Egyptian king - I assume you're talking about when Moses asked for his people to be freed. Had Pharoah listened to Moses the first time and then simply said "OK, you can go" then it would have looked as if Moses was simply a persuasive speaker. It would make Moses look good, but not bring any glory to God. As it was, there was no doubting that Moses was speaking on behalf of God - after all no mortal could summon the plagues just because they felt like it.

God didn't take a break because he was tired, he took a break to show us that we need to take a break. Have you ever tried to work 7-day weeks? How long can you cope with that before you start to tire and long more and more for a rest? The point here is that God knew in advance that we'd need a rest, so designated one day every week for us to stop work and recharge our batteries. Obeying his own law simply shows how important it is.

Back to the emotions, it's not that God matches us, it's that we match him. We were made in God's image (Gen 1:26-27), so it's not surprising that we experience the same emotions that God does.