what does eternam punnishment actually achieve?

[benedict]

god created satan, and god knew what satan would do - therefor it's fair to assume that god created satan for a purpose, otherwise he wouldn't have created him.

i'm guessing that this purpose was hell :hmm:

what does hell actually achieve, in the long run? does it make anything better?

if it was a case of you stay there 'till you have repented, or serve some kind of sentance then fair enough.

but you don't.

nobody wins - not you, not me, not the people there, not the people in heaven, not god, not satan (i'm sure i read he still wants to be in heaven).

pointless...

[markinro]

god created satan, and god knew what satan would do - therefor it's fair to assume that god created satan for a purpose, otherwise he wouldn't have created him.

i'm guessing that this purpose was hell :hmm:

what does hell actually achieve, in the long run? does it make anything better?

if it was a case of you stay there 'till you have repented, or serve some kind of sentance then fair enough.

but you don't.

nobody wins - not you, not me, not the people there, not the people in heaven, not god, not satan (i'm sure i read he still wants to be in heaven).

pointless...

25 But you have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall you call upon me, but I will not answer; you shall seek me early, but you shall not find me:
29 For that you hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 You would none of my counsel: you despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall you eat of the fruit of your own way, and be filled with your own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay you, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy you.

[Literalist-Luke]

What is actually achieved by choosing eternal punishment for yourself?

[benedict]

What is actually achieved by choosing eternal punishment for yourself?
i'll answer your question after you answer mine;)

[benedict]

25 But you have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall you call upon me, but I will not answer; you shall seek me early, but you shall not find me:
29 For that you hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 You would none of my counsel: you despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall you eat of the fruit of your own way, and be filled with your own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay you, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy you.
not trying to sound testy, but can you explain to me how that explains what eternal punnishment achieves?

[Tanya~]

Eternal punishment accomplishes eternal separation of the wicked from God and all the good that God has provided.

[benedict]

Eternal punishment accomplishes eternal separation of the wicked from God and all the good that God has provided.
see, it's stuff like this that really stops me believing...if there's anything i'm sure of, it's that nothing is black and white, and generally, the more important the thing is, the less black and white it is...but hey, that's just me. i'm not god...:giveup:

[Literalist-Luke]

I'll answer your question after you answer mine;)Fair enough. :) The Bible indicates that people will be basically incarcerated away from God. From a Biblical point of view, that means that all restraints on the sin nature will be removed. Essentially, the place where non-believers will be located will be a state of complete anarchy - everybody acting on their whims with absolutely no restraint whatsoever. (The Bible does not specify whether or not there will be any interaction among those people.) Post-Apocalypse movies like Mad Max and Waterworld don't even begin to scratch the surface of how awful such conditions would really be. The only way to keep humanity's dark side that lies within each of us from getting completely out of control is to restrain it.

Apparently, since God created us and consequently understands the extent of our depravity without Him, He is also the only one who understands how drastic the measures will have to be to restrain non-believers. Hence, the place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

One argument that I've heard presented is that God could just annihilate such people from existence instead of making them go through such an experience. To be honest, from a purely human point of view, that would be the easier approach to make sense of. But we don't understand the eternal nature of our own being. The Bible says we were created with the image of God within us. So apparently there is an eternal aspect to our being that is impossible to "annihilate".

One thing to keep in mind: How you look on God's way of handling this is like a glass of water. Is it half full or half empty? A believer would say it's half full because God has provided us a way to avoid that awful experience. All we have to do is just admit that we can't do it on our own. That's pretty simple. No big price to pay - just a simple moment of humility before our Creator. (Notice that I said "humility", not "humiliation" - they're not the same thing you know.)

A non-believer would say the glass if half-empty because they're not willing to go through that moment of humility and would rather experience the eternity of suffering rather than sacrifice their pride for a moment.

But nobody is stuck. It's your choice whether or not to choose freedom from your own sins.

[Tanya~]

see, it's stuff like this that really stops me believing...if there's anything i'm sure of, it's that nothing is black and white, and generally, the more important the thing is, the less black and white it is...but hey, that's just me. i'm not god...:giveup:

Are you rejecting the faith because you don't like the idea of hell? But if hell is a future reality, your rejecting it on principle isn't going to save you from it. These are realities that we don't like, but our dislike of them doesn't change the facts. I don't like the thought of hell either.

I will say though that we don't have all the information. If we give God the benefit of the doubt and assume that He does know what He's doing and that He truly is Good, then we can set aside the issues that we don't fully understand (God's motivation and reason for the existence of hell), and focus on the things that are clearly revealed to us about God.

You said "it's stuff like this that really stops me believing." Does that mean in the absence of 'stuff like this' you would believe?

[Sold Out]

if it was a case of you stay there 'till you have repented, or serve some kind of sentance then fair enough.

but you don't.

nobody wins - not you, not me, not the people there, not the people in heaven, not god, not satan (i'm sure i read he still wants to be in heaven).

pointless...

No, hell doesn't make anything better. You could apply the same logic to someone sitting on death row. You can't bring back the life he/she took, and their life will end as a result. Is justice served? Yes. That is the point. What would be unfair is to let that murderer go free. There's no lesson to be learned...the punishment must fit the crime. Period.

Hell is not there to accomplish anything. Hell is where justice is served. Hell is the 'death sentence' for sin. That's really as simple as it gets.

[Literalist-Luke]

i'll answer your question after you answer mine;)Your turn. :D

[renthead188]

see, it's stuff like this that really stops me believing...if there's anything i'm sure of, it's that nothing is black and white, and generally, the more important the thing is, the less black and white it is...but hey, that's just me. i'm not god...:giveup:

Surely you believe in true love.

God is True Love. True and Perfect Love.

Hell is the complete absence of God, a place of total and complete seperation from love.

What is the opposite of love?

[DaniHansen]

Take a person's evil bent. Say, he/she gets to live it out for ... 50 years without it ever being corrected because that person isn't willing because they get pleasure out of it (and if you don't think people get pleasure out of the mis-treatment of others, then please pay closer attention to what goes on around you). How much evil do you think that person will accomplish in 50 years, and how many people will end up being mis-treated and lash out in retribution and pass that down the line, and etc, and so on, and so forth?

Say, God does nothing about it, because again, that person isn't willing, and that person gets to live with his/her evil bent for all eternity, and it grows exponentially, ad infinitum.

If that doesn't scare you, I'm sorry, but that scares the eebie jeebies out of me. I much prefer to live in a universe where good is actually rewarded and evil doesn't go unpunished. Because the alternative doesn't appeal to me one bit.

[Evangelist Smith]

god created satan, and god knew what satan would do - therefor it's fair to assume that god created satan for a purpose, otherwise he wouldn't have created him.

i'm guessing that this purpose was hell :hmm:

what does hell actually achieve, in the long run? does it make anything better?

if it was a case of you stay there 'till you have repented, or serve some kind of sentance then fair enough.

but you don't.

nobody wins - not you, not me, not the people there, not the people in heaven, not god, not satan (i'm sure i read he still wants to be in heaven).

pointless...First off lets establish who hell was created for

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Matt.25:41

So we see that this place of torment was originally created for satan and his angels

not for us

Now satan and some of the angels had rebelled against the Lord and this was their punishment

so where do we come in at

When Adam and Eve wilfully and intentionally rebelled against the Lord choosing that day to not believe the Lord and disobey the Lord , but rather believe and obey satan
rather than their Creator , Almighty God

This rebellion and disobedience brought sin into the world
and hence we are all born into sin

And in God's Infinite wisdom chose hell to be a place that man would go after this life until the Judgment, because they chose to follow satan

Now where would righteous judgment be if God only sent satan and his angels to hell of their rebellion and disobedience?

Righteous Judgment calls for fairness

If man chooses to follow satan and disobey the good Lord why should he get better treatment that the one he chose to follow , the one he chose to serve

Now lets see if it is God's wish that man would choose that the wicked perish

Is it really God's wish that man should perish along with satan and his angels

no no

lets go to the Word

Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD,
I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked;
but that the wicked turn from his way and live:
turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways;
for why will ye die, O house of Israel? Ezek.33:11

It is not God's will tht any man should perish but that they would turn from his wicked ways and live

And out of the Lord's great love and mercy He made a way that NOT ONE man woman boy or girl has to go to that place called Hell

NOT ONE OF THEM HAS TO GO

HE MADE A WAY FOR ALL

ALL WHO WOULD REPENT OF THEIR SINS TRUSTING IN HIS SHED BLOOD

And its called obeying the Word

Repent and Believe the Gospel

Now will All Repent?

no all will not repent

all will not obey the Lord

why?

why will not all men ,meaning mankind

why will they not all obey the Lord

lets go to the Word

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved

(so we see thus far that the Lord did not send His Son into this world to condemn me you or anyone else

why did He send Him? Our of His GREAT LOVE

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever Believeth in Him would not perish but have everlasting life

For God so loved!

Now that doesnt sound like God wants any man in hell does it?)

Lets continue

He that believeth on Him is not condemned:
but he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Did Adam and Eve believe God?

No

Now from their sin we are all born into sin because sin was passed down upon God's Creation

and God In His infinite wisdom and mercy chose to make a way for His Creation that they would not have to perish if they would believe on Him and obey His Word


We each have a choice

Now the question was why will all not obey the Lord and be saved, if there is a way that they would not perish

lets continue in the Word


19.And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world,
and men loved darkness rather than light,
because their deeds were evil



20.For every one that doeth evil hateth the light,
neither cometh to the light,
lest his deeds should be reproved.

21.But he that doeth truth
cometh to the light,
that his deeds may be made manifest,
that they are wrought in God.


In other words most people like their sins and hate the truth and will not obey the truth


What Truth

JESUS CHRIST DYING FOR THEIR SINS THAT THEY WOULD BE FORGIVEN

BEING RAISED FROM THE DEAD THAT THEY WOULD BE JUSTIFIED IN HIS SIGHT

Sad as it is, most will not obey the Lord

Is that God's fault that man chooses to rebell against Him

NO WAY HOSEA

NO WAY

That is man's fault not God's

He has done all that man might be saved

He gave heavens best , His perfect sinless Son to pay for the sins of all men everywhere

God has done all to save you , me and this whole world

now all the Lord calls for from man is to

REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL

Everything else has been done in order for man to be saved

How can we blame God for our disobedience

God calls ALL to REPENT

ALL WILL NOT OBEY

And God in His infinite wisdom chose that man would go to the place where there master goes

if their master is satan , they will go where he goes
if man chose God, they will go to be with Him

its that simple

Once again is it the Lord's desire that man perish

NO

Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD,
I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked;
but that the wicked turn from his way and live:
turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways;
for why will ye die, O house of Israel? Ezek.33:11


God bless you and hope this helps u to better understand the Righteous ways of the Lord

Righteousness calls for Justice
Justice calls for
Judgment for the Disobedient
Mercy for the Obedient

in His Service
Evang.dare

[tango]

god created satan, and god knew what satan would do - therefor it's fair to assume that god created satan for a purpose, otherwise he wouldn't have created him.

i'm guessing that this purpose was hell :hmm:

what does hell actually achieve, in the long run? does it make anything better?

if it was a case of you stay there 'till you have repented, or serve some kind of sentance then fair enough.

but you don't.

nobody wins - not you, not me, not the people there, not the people in heaven, not god, not satan (i'm sure i read he still wants to be in heaven).

pointless...

It's pretty simple really. God gives you a choice to be with him, or away from him.

If you choose to be with him you spend eternity with him. You get what you chose.

If you choose to be without him you spend eternity without him. Again, you get what you chose.

If there was no hell, no place where God was absent, how could God honour the wishes of those people who chose not to be with him? It would be a bit pointless giving us all a free will if our decisions didn't count for anything in the end.

The thing to remember is that Satan is the father of lies. He likes to let people believe there is no hell, or that maybe it's not such a bad place, or that if God really is all-loving they won't be cast into hell after all, and so on. The trouble is, telling a lie doesn't change the truth. If someone tells you it's safe to put wet fingers into a light socket that doesn't change the very real danger you face if you ever did such a thing.

Normally believing a dodgy salesman costs you some money, or some peace of mind, or something replaceable. Believing Satan's lies will cost you a whole lot more.

[Dragonfighter1]

god created satan, and god knew what satan would do - therefor it's fair to assume that god created satan for a purpose, otherwise he wouldn't have created him.

i'm guessing that this purpose was hell :hmm:

what does hell actually achieve, in the long run? does it make anything better?

if it was a case of you stay there 'till you have repented, or serve some kind of sentance then fair enough.

but you don't.

nobody wins - not you, not me, not the people there, not the people in heaven, not god, not satan (i'm sure i read he still wants to be in heaven).

pointless...


consider this...

Heaven, a great place to be if you follow Gods plan etc.. OK that's not the question but I am framing the question.
Hell, a lousy place to be if you disobey Gods Plan etc...
OK now we ask why hell, to what purpose???

well lets throw in one other thought..... "nothingness" .. why does God not just simply terminate us entirely?

Here then we find a possible answer. If the end of absolute evil is simply "nothingness" then there is no consequence and no reason to fear. oh, you could make the argument that eternal happiness is better than "nothingness", but I think you would find a lot of people say...
"Hey, if the only consequence is "nothingness" then lets eat drink, sin, rape, steal, etc.. for tomorrow we cease to exist".

So, eternal punishment is logical.

[markinro]

god created satan, and god knew what satan would do - therefor it's fair to assume that god created satan for a purpose, otherwise he wouldn't have created him.

i'm guessing that this purpose was hell :hmm:

what does hell actually achieve, in the long run? does it make anything better?

if it was a case of you stay there 'till you have repented, or serve some kind of sentance then fair enough.

but you don't.

nobody wins - not you, not me, not the people there, not the people in heaven, not god, not satan (i'm sure i read he still wants to be in heaven).

pointless...

Where would sinners go if there were no hell ?