Couple of things

[Tuto]

There are a couple of subjects that i have been thinking for a while. One deals with homosexuality and the other with history.

I know a person who is a homosexual and i don't see anything wrong with her. I don't think anybody can convince me that there is something wrong with her or the way she lives her life. She is truly happy and caring person. The thing is that i have never felt that there was anything wrong with homosexuality even when i was younger. So the stance with Christianity and other religions seem to different from my own.

The other part is history. History has always fascinated me. When i look at history i don't see anything divine about it. Humans have always stayed the same even though there are new inventions and new ways of thinking, the core is always the same and there seems to be nothing divine about it.

[markdrums]

There are a couple of subjects that i have been thinking for a while. One deals with homosexuality and the other with history.

I know a person who is a homosexual and i don't see anything wrong with her. I don't think anybody can convince me that there is something wrong with her or the way she lives her life. She is truly happy and caring person. The thing is that i have never felt that there was anything wrong with homosexuality even when i was younger. So the stance with Christianity and other religions seem to different from my own.

The other part is history. History has always fascinated me. When i look at history i don't see anything divine about it. Humans have always stayed the same even though there are new inventions and new ways of thinking, the core is always the same and there seems to be nothing divine about it.

The whole subject of homosexuality eventually boild down to this: It's a CHOICE that the individual makes.
Sure, I've heard the arguments "But I've just always felt like this." or "I was born like this"....
Feelings are subjective. What one person "feels", another may not.

Even IF they've always been attracted to the same sex, it still comes down to a choice they make.

I personally don't believe that it's "normal" or "natural". The main purpose of "sex" is for reproduction. (Yes, it's physically pleasurable, but that goes hand in hand with keeping the species "proactive" so to speak.)
Homosexuality eliminates the natural outcome of reproduction.

So, realistically, it goes AGAINST nature, or what is "normal" behavior.
If EVERYONE were homosexual, the population would run itself out of existence. (Yes that's a pretty big reach to think EVERYONE would be homosexual, but that's the reality of it on the largest scale.)

I don't know what causes one person over another to be drawn towards it, but again, I still say the ultimate deciding factor is each person's "choice"

[Xel'Naga]

There are a couple of subjects that i have been thinking for a while. One deals with homosexuality and the other with history.

I know a person who is a homosexual and i don't see anything wrong with her. I don't think anybody can convince me that there is something wrong with her or the way she lives her life. She is truly happy and caring person. The thing is that i have never felt that there was anything wrong with homosexuality even when i was younger. So the stance with Christianity and other religions seem to different from my own.

You really have two ways of looking at homosexuality: natural or unnatural. Let's first look at the implications of looking at homosexuality as if it were a natural occurrence.

The did an interesting experiment with mice a few years ago (and I'm sure they're still doing experiments along the lines of this). Scientists took a mischief of mice, confined them to a small, enclosed space and let them procreate ad infinitum. An interesting thing happened - the mice stopped procreating as they began filling their enclosed space more and more. Those with imaginations fell into what's known as the natural fallacy (attributing to humankind things which occur in nature) and postulated that perhaps homosexuality in humans is the cause of 'overpopulation', natures way of fixing itself. Homosexuality would therefore be natural, however, there would still be something wrong with the homosexual - they are still against nature as it intends to be. The problem with this hypothesis is also quite blatant... The world, contrary to popular belief, is not overpopulated; there is no need for such 'natural fixes' to be taking place. There's nothing really in nature to account for homosexuality in humans. If you wish to call it natural then at the same time you must call it unnatural, for it against natures natural process.

If you view homosexuality as something unnatural, the cause of sin, then you must deal with something very complex - calling it a choice may not be wrong, but it's very superficial. Christianity believes that God intended sexuality to be sacred; that a man should leave his parents, find a wife and the two should become one flesh. Man and a woman; not a woman with a woman or a man with a man. Now, because sin corrupted creation we aren't living in the world God intended for us to live in. Let's assume, then, that people are genetically predisposed to homosexuality (much like there are those who are predisposed to alcoholism). The Bible condemns the act of homosexuality, it does not condemn the disposition. Just as being disposed to alcoholism isn't a sin, but being drunk is. Did God "create" the person this way? Absolutely not - sin corrupts. So while you may not see anything wrong with your friend; through the Christian perspective they are living in sin because they are engaging in homosexuality, not because they are predisposed to homosexuality. It must be a terrible burden to live with, but sin is sin and no matter what we think, that's not going to change.


The other part is history. History has always fascinated me. When i look at history i don't see anything divine about it. Humans have always stayed the same even though there are new inventions and new ways of thinking, the core is always the same and there seems to be nothing divine about it.

I'd say that's a pretty dramatic demonstration of sin in the world.

[Tuto]

I don't really bye the that homosexuality is a choice. I have always been attracted to girls and never to boys. I have known my friend since childhood and had seen sings even then, but i didn't understand them. I read some where that psychologist think that homosexuality is caused by genetics, environment etc.

But lets say that for the sake of argument that its a choice, so what? I can't believe that something is wrong simply because it was written in the bible without seeing any valid reason for it. Ok you can't have babies, but since the world is over populated and millions of people are starving, maybe we don't need to increase the population when the current recourses aren't enough for the people currently living?

"I'd say that's a pretty dramatic demonstration of sin in the world."

Was the world more sinful through out history than it is today? I mean if all the bad things in the world are because of sin and humans are currently doing better than ever that must mean that we are less sinful.

[Xel'Naga]

I don't really bye the that homosexuality is a choice. I have always been attracted to girls and never to boys. I have known my friend since childhood and had seen sings even then, but i didn't understand them. I read some where that psychologist think that homosexuality is caused by genetics, environment etc.

But lets say that for the sake of argument that its a choice, so what? I can't believe that something is wrong simply because it was written in the bible without seeing any valid reason for it. Ok you can't have babies, but since the world is over populated and millions of people are starving, maybe we don't need to increase the population when the current recourses aren't enough for the people currently living?

Don't read what I'm not saying: acting on homosexual tendencies is a choice, just as acting on heterosexual tendencies is a choice. I'm not saying one chooses to be gay and, because of an act of strong will, can choose to not be gay. I've even allowed for there to be a genetic predisposition which exposes a person to homosexuality. Even with that genetic predisposition, however, one still chooses to act on the tendency. To be clear, however, there is nothing in science right now (that I know of) that conclusively links homosexuality with genetics. Environment I won't dispute, because I believe there are environmental factors which can cause someone to become gay. I'll also be rather straight forward: I believe too many people are gay because they've been told they were gay, not because they themselves knew it.

Please understand everything I've said relating to the sinfulness of homosexuality has been said under the pretense that God, as He is presented in the Judeo-Christian tradition, actually exists. If this God actually exists and homosexuality is a perversion of what's natural (because of sin), then it doesn't matter if we agree with God or not on the issue of homosexuality - it's a sin, God has declared it as such. If you want to discuss the reasons we might believe the Bible then please, lets talk about that. Don't, however, let your emotions get the better of you, lest you read what one of us is saying incorrectly (as I've done many times). The problem with the world, by the way, is greedy people. There's enough food to feed everyone; there's enough money to clothe and take care of everyone.


"I'd say that's a pretty dramatic demonstration of sin in the world."

Was the world more sinful through out history than it is today? I mean if all the bad things in the world are because of sin and humans are currently doing better than ever that must mean that we are less sinful.

That's the thing: we aren't doing better than ever. We're doing worse than ever - we've killed a whole lot more people - and treated other people a whole lot worse - than anyone before us ever has. Progress is just that, a myth. We haven't improved in thousands of years of trying; I'd say that's a demonstration of sin in progress.

[Tuto]

Ok thanks for your answers. I understand what you mean by saying that its a choice to act on homosexual urges but i don't think its realistic to expect people to not act on them. It would be the same as to demand a heterosexual person not to act on his urges. Denying your emotions and thinking there is something wrong with them leads to self hatred which would make life unbearable.

"That's the thing: we aren't doing better than ever. We're doing worse than ever - we've killed a whole lot more people - and treated other people a whole lot worse - than anyone before us ever has. Progress is just that, a myth. We haven't improved in thousands of years of trying; I'd say that's a demonstration of sin in progress."

I don't think you understand history very well if you truly mean this. History is filled with war, slavery, inequality, tyranny, hunger, poverty etc. In many ways we have over come many of these things. Naturally there are parts of the world that are behind progress, but in general people are doing better than ever.

[dljc]

Ok thanks for your answers. I understand what you mean by saying that its a choice to act on homosexual urges but i don't think its realistic to expect people to not act on them. It would be the same as to demand a heterosexual person not to act on his urges. Denying your emotions and thinking there is something wrong with them leads to self hatred which would make life unbearable.Self control as a heterosexual is instruction we are given in 1 Corinthians 7, among other places in the Bible. You are looking at things from a different perspective than what they really are. God doesn't want to discipline us like many think, He wants us to become disciplined by His Word. Not giving ourselves over to the slavery of sin in any form.
"That's the thing: we aren't doing better than ever. We're doing worse than ever - we've killed a whole lot more people - and treated other people a whole lot worse - than anyone before us ever has. Progress is just that, a myth. We haven't improved in thousands of years of trying; I'd say that's a demonstration of sin in progress."

I don't think you understand history very well if you truly mean this. History is filled with war, slavery, inequality, tyranny, hunger, poverty etc. In many ways we have over come many of these things. Naturally there are parts of the world that are behind progress, but in general people are doing better than ever.A fellow that I go to church with and talk to regularly likes to say to me, "You don't know what you're capable of". My response back every time is, "Yes, I do, all I have to do is look at the Bible and history in general", as an individual I'm capable of any of those things you listed that are in bold. I am capable of being the cause of hunger and poverty etc. through any one of the ones preceeding in that list. And you know what Tuto? So are you. You've heard the expression "Power corrupts and Absolute Power corrupts Absolutely". I imagine you've heard the expression too, "No quarter given and none taken". Meaning no mercy given and none taken. Those are secular sayings recognizing just how sinful and merciless we can be. Do you think you're incapable of any of those things underlined?

[Xel'Naga]

Ok thanks for your answers. I understand what you mean by saying that its a choice to act on homosexual urges but i don't think its realistic to expect people to not act on them. It would be the same as to demand a heterosexual person not to act on his urges. Denying your emotions and thinking there is something wrong with them leads to self hatred which would make life unbearable.

I imagine it would be a very hard thing not to act on your sexual tendencies, however, with the help of God I do not believe this to be something impossible. It may be a rare thing in Western society, but there are many heterosexual people that do live celibate lives and choose not to act on their inclinations. This choice of actions (choosing not to act), I do not believe, automatically leads to self hatred. Please keep in mind, though, that I'm saying all this with the pretense that one is seeking after God.


I don't think you understand history very well if you truly mean this. History is filled with war, slavery, inequality, tyranny, hunger, poverty etc. In many ways we have over come many of these things. Naturally there are parts of the world that are behind progress, but in general people are doing better than ever.

We haven't overcome any of that - we're the most destructive generation the planet has ever seen (how many people did the Nazi, socialist and communist regimes murder alone?). We may be living longer lives... But what's the expense? Medical progress at the hand of POW experiments? If you call that progress, then...

[Tuto]

I imagine it would be a very hard thing not to act on your sexual tendencies, however, with the help of God I do not believe this to be something impossible. It may be a rare thing in Western society, but there are many heterosexual people that do live celibate lives and choose not to act on their inclinations. This choice of actions (choosing not to act), I do not believe, automatically leads to self hatred. Please keep in mind, though, that I'm saying all this with the pretense that one is seeking after God.



We haven't overcome any of that - we're the most destructive generation the planet has ever seen (how many people did the Nazi, socialist and communist regimes murder alone?). We may be living longer lives... But what's the expense? Medical progress at the hand of POW experiments? If you call that progress, then...

The choice of actions might not lead to self hatred, but the feeling that there is something wrong with your feelings will lead to it with out a doubt.

Progress has always come with an expense. The second world war was nothing special except for the body count which was caused by an increase in population and advances weapons. The Mongolian wars killed half the population of China if you want a comparison. Can you give me an example of a modern society that accepts slavery or genocide? If we started listing the things that have improved through out history up to this day we would ran out of space. Saying that we live a longer life isn't saying much if you take into account how many people died at birth or before they reached adulthood, before modern medicine was developed. If you look at the poorest regions of Africa you get an idea what life has been like through out history, except that they didn't have Unicef or other organizations helping them back then

[Tuto]

Self control as a heterosexual is instruction we are given in 1 Corinthians 7, among other places in the Bible. You are looking at things from a different perspective than what they really are. God doesn't want to discipline us like many think, He wants us to become disciplined by His Word. Not giving ourselves over to the slavery of sin in any form.
A fellow that I go to church with and talk to regularly likes to say to me, "You don't know what you're capable of". My response back every time is, "Yes, I do, all I have to do is look at the Bible and history in general", as an individual I'm capable of any of those things you listed that are in bold. I am capable of being the cause of hunger and poverty etc. through any one of the ones preceeding in that list. And you know what Tuto? So are you. You've heard the expression "Power corrupts and Absolute Power corrupts Absolutely". I imagine you've heard the expression too, "No quarter given and none taken". Meaning no mercy given and none taken. Those are secular sayings recognizing just how sinful and merciless we can be. Do you think you're incapable of any of those things underlined?

Of course not. I have been giving a lot of thought about the human behavior and I am convinced that we are a product of evolution and thus animals. But that doesn't mean that our thoughts and concepts of right and wrong can't develop and at the end of the day we can build societies that are better than their individual members. Hopefully this will ultimately mean that every person on this planet can live a full and happy life.

[dljc]

Of course not. I have been giving a lot of thought about the human behavior and I am convinced that we are a product of evolution and thus animals. But that doesn't mean that our thoughts and concepts of right and wrong can't develop and at the end of the day we can build societies that are better than their individual members. Hopefully this will ultimately mean that every person on this planet can live a full and happy life.Let me show you something from scripture ok.

1. Rom. 3:10, "As it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one...'"

Not one of us has any righteousness in us, only self righteousness. It's through that self righteousness that wars are started, and inequality takes hold and slavery happens these days. Self righteous means I'm better than you doesn't it?

2. Rom. 3:23, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

The things you mentioned "war, slavery, inequality, tyranny," done by our own self righteousness are for power and control over another human being done in a malicious way more often than not. As I said earlier, God wants us to become disciplined by His Word in all aspects of our life. That's why the second commandment is "Love your neighbor as you love yourself".

3. Rom. 5:12, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

Through Adam this sinful nature we have, entered into our "genetic code". Let me ask you this question, do you have to teach a child to lie or steal, or do you have to teach them not to?

4. Rom. 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

For all that we have done in our life even if that is only telling little white lies to protect ourselves or someone else, we deserve God's wrath for that and if we don't repent and accept the free gift He's offering us through Jesus Christ, that's what we'll get.

So if I walked up to you today and said to you "Tuto here is book and through me I will give you anything you need, all you have to do is ask, I already know your needs, and all I ask of you, is to find out who I am and how I live, and here's the book about me" would you accept the free gift?

Matthew 6:25-34
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? 26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? 27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek: ) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Believe it or not, this passage above is considered to be the cure for anxiety. Read it carefully and consider what it's saying.

[Tuto]

Let me show you something from scripture ok.

1. Rom. 3:10, "As it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one...'"

Not one of us has any righteousness in us, only self righteousness. It's through that self righteousness that wars are started, and inequality takes hold and slavery happens these days. Self righteous means I'm better than you doesn't it?

2. Rom. 3:23, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

The things you mentioned "war, slavery, inequality, tyranny," done by our own self righteousness are for power and control over another human being done in a malicious way more often than not. As I said earlier, God wants us to become disciplined by His Word in all aspects of our life. That's why the second commandment is "Love your neighbor as you love yourself".

3. Rom. 5:12, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

Through Adam this sinful nature we have, entered into our "genetic code". Let me ask you this question, do you have to teach a child to lie or steal, or do you have to teach them not to?

4. Rom. 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

For all that we have done in our life even if that is only telling little white lies to protect ourselves or someone else, we deserve God's wrath for that and if we don't repent and accept the free gift He's offering us through Jesus Christ, that's what we'll get.

So if I walked up to you today and said to you "Tuto here is book and through me I will give you anything you need, all you have to do is ask, I already know your needs, and all I ask of you, is to find out who I am and how I live, and here's the book about me" would you accept the free gift?

Matthew 6:25-34
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? 26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? 27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek: ) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Believe it or not, this passage above is considered to be the cure for anxiety. Read it carefully and consider what it's saying.

I read what you wrote carefully, but it didn't affect me at all. To get anything out of the bible you would first have to accept that the Christian god is real which i am not convinced of. I don't believe there is absolute morality in the world we live, life isn't black and white. Thats why i have a hard time accepting the teachings of any religion.

"So if I walked up to you today and said to you "Tuto here is book and through me I will give you anything you need, all you have to do is ask, I already know your needs, and all I ask of you, is to find out who I am and how I live, and here's the book about me" would you accept the free gift?"

If somebody actually came to me and said this, i would probably be on my guard since this person might be unstable :lol:

But in all seriousness even if somebody knew all my needs and could full fill them, i would still have to judge his character and what i read in other post about god killing children etc. I probably wouldn't accept this gift. If i have to spend eternity with a divine being i don't respect or agree with it would literally be hell.

[Sold Out]

There are a couple of subjects that i have been thinking for a while. One deals with homosexuality and the other with history.

I know a person who is a homosexual and i don't see anything wrong with her. I don't think anybody can convince me that there is something wrong with her or the way she lives her life. She is truly happy and caring person. The thing is that i have never felt that there was anything wrong with homosexuality even when i was younger. So the stance with Christianity and other religions seem to different from my own.

The other part is history. History has always fascinated me. When i look at history i don't see anything divine about it. Humans have always stayed the same even though there are new inventions and new ways of thinking, the core is always the same and there seems to be nothing divine about it.

Since you are not a Christian, it is completely normal that you would not see anything wrong with homosexuality. What you have effectively done is create a god in your own mind that likes what you like and approves of what you approve of. That is called an idol, which is a transgression of the 2nd commandment.

You have made a correct observation on history. Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 1:9, "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." You've heard the term 'history repeats itself'....and it's true!

There is a difference between history (what happened in the past) and HISTORY (His Story), meaning Jesus Christ. Since He came to earth, was buried, and rose again, this earth has not been the same. People the world over are transformed by what He did.

[dljc]

I read what you wrote carefully, but it didn't affect me at all. To get anything out of the bible you would first have to accept that the Christian god is real which i am not convinced of. I don't believe there is absolute morality in the world we live, life isn't black and white. Thats why i have a hard time accepting the teachings of any religion.

"So if I walked up to you today and said to you "Tuto here is book and through me I will give you anything you need, all you have to do is ask, I already know your needs, and all I ask of you, is to find out who I am and how I live, and here's the book about me" would you accept the free gift?"

If somebody actually came to me and said this, i would probably be on my guard since this person might be unstable :lol:

But in all seriousness even if somebody knew all my needs and could full fill them, i would still have to judge his character and what i read in other post about god killing children etc. I probably wouldn't accept this gift. If i have to spend eternity with a divine being i don't respect or agree with it would literally be hell.And there you have it. You are saying you are more loving, compassionate, merciful, patient, and forgiving, than your creator. Yet you agree with me that you and I both are capable of any one of those things you listed. Why and how are you better than God?

(Underlined comment) The scribes, pharisees and sadducees and even King Herod thought pretty much the same thing about Jesus Himself and John the Baptist.

[Xel'Naga]

The choice of actions might not lead to self hatred, but the feeling that there is something wrong with your feelings will lead to it with out a doubt.

No, not without a doubt. Please keep in mind that everything I've been saying has been in light of the idea that God exists as He is portrayed in the Judeo-Christian tradition. If there is such a God, you believe in Him (Romans 10:9...) and, having a predisposition to homosexual behavior, you deny yourself because of what you believe (choose not to act on those feelings), then one of two things will happen: (1) You'll find it easier - though not without a bit of a struggle - to not act on that predisposition. (2) Your predisposition will completely change and you'll find yourself with a heterosexual attraction.

But again; this is all nonsense if you don't take it with the understanding that God exists.

[Tuto]

And there you have it. You are saying you are more loving, compassionate, merciful, patient, and forgiving, than your creator. Yet you agree with me that you and I both are capable of any one of those things you listed. Why and how are you better than God?

(Underlined comment) The scribes, pharisees and sadducees and even King Herod thought pretty much the same thing about Jesus Himself and John the Baptist.

I read the other post about god killing children with great interest. If it is true then of course i am better than him, we all are. If an all powerful being kills little children there is no excuse for it. Just because he created me doesn't automatically mean that he is better than me. His actions are the things that matter. And if i go to hell because i believe this way, i will go there with a smile on face since that is where i belong.

[renthead188]

I read the other post about god killing children with great interest. If it is true then of course i am better than him, we all are. If an all powerful being kills little children there is no excuse for it. Just because he created me doesn't automatically mean that he is better than me. His actions are the things that matter. And if i go to hell because i believe this way, i will go there with a smile on face since that is where i belong.

Have you ever been burned? Cigarette lighter, campfire, hot stove, anything? Did you smile? Was happiness your reaction?

How did you react when you burnt your hand on the stove? Now imagine your entire body for all of eternity.

Why do you say that you will be happy and laughing in hell, where the fire will be that much hotter, an everlasting torment?

Hell is not where you belong. We were designed to be in fellowship with God. Hell is where we go when we depart from Him. Jesus took all of that upon Himself at the cross, receiving the punishment for sin. You belong to God, just let Him have you.

[dljc]

I read the other post about god killing children with great interest. If it is true then of course i am better than him, we all are. If an all powerful being kills little children there is no excuse for it. Just because he created me doesn't automatically mean that he is better than me. His actions are the things that matter. And if i go to hell because i believe this way, i will go there with a smile on face since that is where i belong.The choice is yours to make. Just be careful what you wish for, it's hot there all the time and there's no water and that's just for starters. You are making your choice on your own limited understanding of why God does things. Are you really willing to take that risk?

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

[Tuto]

Have you ever been burned? Cigarette lighter, campfire, hot stove, anything? Did you smile? Was happiness your reaction?

How did you react when you burnt your hand on the stove? Now imagine your entire body for all of eternity.

Why do you say that you will be happy and laughing in hell, where the fire will be that much hotter, an everlasting torment?

Hell is not where you belong. We were designed to be in fellowship with God. Hell is where we go when we depart from Him. Jesus took all of that upon Himself at the cross, receiving the punishment for sin. You belong to God, just let Him have you.

Do the consequences really matter if i am right? The idea that there is a supreme being that has killed babies, condemns homosexuality and other things in a time when man has traveled to space, build nuclear reactor etc. is just so bizarre. I can't fit in my head that a supreme being isn't above petty things like killing and condemning people.

[Tuto]

The choice is yours to make. Just be careful what you wish for, it's hot there all the time and there's no water and that's just for starters. You are making your choice on your own limited understanding of why God does things. Are you really willing to take that risk?

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I am a young guy so i have plenty of time to develop my thoughts, but if you ask me now, then i feel that I have to take that risk.

I have been thinking about this a lot and thats why i have come to these forums. I started of as an agnostic and still am, but now i am sure that its the correct way of thinking. I want to thank the members of this forum for helping me to come to this conclusion even though it probably isn't the one you were hoping. The reason why i came to this conclusion is not because of these forums, they just reaffirmed what i already believed. So thanks to all the members of this forum.

[Xel'Naga]

Do the consequences really matter if i am right? The idea that there is a supreme being that has killed babies, condemns homosexuality and other things in a time when man has traveled to space, build nuclear reactor etc. is just so bizarre. I can't fit in my head that a supreme being isn't above petty things like killing and condemning people.

You would consider killing people or condemning them to be petty? It might [actually] be a hard thing to grasp, but God actually cares about His creation. He isn't a million miles away; He's involved, very intimately, in our affairs. He is in effect, right next to you. He's not what the deists have made him out to be - this uninvolved creator who set everything in motion and than ran off, allowing [forcing] us to fend for ourselves.

You see, the issue is that your view is ethnocentric. You're viewing the past through the lens of a 21st century Westerner. I can tell you two things: (1) The rest of the world is very different from the West, (2) History is very different from the rest. The concept of justice, which is a very important concept when discussing the Old Testament, is one that is lost and misunderstood exactly because people attempt to understand it (understandably) with a Western mindset. But how can you understand such a thing as justice when the mindset of the West is "every man doeth as his heart sees right"? You can't.

I see you've "made your choice" (for now). Please understand that it's not our job to convince you to come to Christianity. We're to present you with the Gospel message and from there you make your choice. We would absolutely love to see you come to believe in Jesus Christ and God, but maybe now isn't the right time. That's unfortunate in our eyes, as we have a very limited view of things; but perhaps in God's plan what's meant to be is meant to be for now.

[Tuto]

You would consider killing people or condemning them to be petty? It might [actually] be a hard thing to grasp, but God actually cares about His creation. He isn't a million miles away; He's involved, very intimately, in our affairs. He is in effect, right next to you. He's not what the deists have made him out to be - this uninvolved creator who set everything in motion and than ran off, allowing [forcing] us to fend for ourselves.

You see, the issue is that your view is ethnocentric. You're viewing the past through the lens of a 21st century Westerner. I can tell you two things: (1) The rest of the world is very different from the West, (2) History is very different from the rest. The concept of justice, which is a very important concept when discussing the Old Testament, is one that is lost and misunderstood exactly because people attempt to understand it (understandably) with a Western mindset. But how can you understand such a thing as justice when the mindset of the West is "every man doeth as his heart sees right"? You can't.

I see you've "made your choice" (for now). Please understand that it's not our job to convince you to come to Christianity. We're to present you with the Gospel message and from there you make your choice. We would absolutely love to see you come to believe in Jesus Christ and God, but maybe now isn't the right time. That's unfortunate in our eyes, as we have a very limited view of things; but perhaps in God's plan what's meant to be is meant to be for now.

I don't think i look back at history through the lens of a 21st century Westerner, because that is the cardinal sin of looking back at history. Human behavior has to always be kept in the correct historical context, but i don't think it can be applied to a supreme being. Because if it did then that would mean that humans have evolved past this supreme being.

[Xel'Naga]

I don't think i look back at history through the lens of a 21st century Westerner, because that is the cardinal sin of looking back at history. Human behavior has to always be kept in the correct historical context, but i don't think it can be applied to a supreme being. Because if it did then that would mean that humans have evolved past this supreme being.

Unless you are outside the West (and I apologize for assuming you aren't), then you can't help but look back through history through the lens of the West - cardinal sin or not, we all do it (if you are outside of the West then you look through history through the lens of your relative culture). The actions of a supreme being must absolutely be kept within a historical context, why wouldn't it? Let's remember that God is working inside humanity, with humanity. It would not make sense for God to transcend who we are at a specific point in time and act in such a way that would completely foreign to our understanding. There's no reason to think humans would have evolved past God, simply because humans change (notice how God relates to humanity changes as well?); all this means is that God relates to us according to how we relate to ourselves (and to him).

There are armies filled with children in Africa (some of whom are slaves and commit genocide, by the way), why do you think "children" and "babies" are always these sweet cuddly things that are the objects of parents affection, having had too many pictures taken of them? Because of your sociopolitical and cultural presuppositions. I don't mean to be blunt; but that's simply how it is. If you had transcended your presuppositions then a few responses ago you wouldn't have used the language you did in accusing God of killing "babies".

[Tuto]

Unless you are outside the West (and I apologize for assuming you aren't), then you can't help but look back through history through the lens of the West - cardinal sin or not, we all do it (if you are outside of the West then you look through history through the lens of your relative culture). The actions of a supreme being must absolutely be kept within a historical context, why wouldn't it? Let's remember that God is working inside humanity, with humanity. It would not make sense for God to transcend who we are at a specific point in time and act in such a way that would completely foreign to our understanding. There's no reason to think humans would have evolved past God, simply because humans change (notice how God relates to humanity changes as well?); all this means is that God relates to us according to how we relate to ourselves (and to him).

There are armies filled with children in Africa (some of whom are slaves and commit genocide, by the way), why do you think "children" and "babies" are always these sweet cuddly things that are the objects of parents affection, having had too many pictures taken of them? Because of your sociopolitical and cultural presuppositions. I don't mean to be blunt; but that's simply how it is. If you had transcended your presuppositions then a few responses ago you wouldn't have used the language you did in accusing God of killing "babies".

Well for starters humans are affected by numerous things that the supreme being would be immune to. Humans have constantly been at the mercy of nature, fighting to stay alive. Man didn't have advanced knowledge about the world surrounding him or his own behavior. God on the other hand had all the answer and still decided to act the way he did. In other words God has been above the things of which human behavior has to be kept in its correct context.

My view on children is largely based on the western view, which on the other hand is based on scientific knowledge of a child's mind. Unlike adults, the child's mind is constantly developing and can be easily influenced. This is why in many western countries children up to a certain age are immune from facing charges over the crimes they have committed. Its not a view point but a scientific fact and it doesn't change even if a child belongs to an army.

[Xel'Naga]

Well for starters humans are affected by numerous things that the supreme being would be immune to. Humans have constantly been at the mercy of nature, fighting to stay alive. Man didn't have advanced knowledge about the world surrounding him or his own behavior. God on the other hand had all the answer and still decided to act the way he did. In other words God has been above the things of which human behavior has to be kept in its correct context.

Man did have that knowledge; read Genesis chapters 1 to 3. With that said, however. We've still got to keep everything within it's proper context: human action and the actions of God. Genesis 1 to 3 will also shine some light on why God acted the way that He did (which you'll probably have to better define). God wasn't holding up some sort of special knowledge and not allowing us to get at it... We originally had it and we tossed it aside in favour of ourselves.


My view on children is largely based on the western view, which on the other hand is based on scientific knowledge of a child's mind. Unlike adults, the child's mind is constantly developing and can be easily influenced. This is why in many western countries children up to a certain age are immune from facing charges over the crimes they have committed. Its not a view point but a scientific fact and it doesn't change even if a child belongs to an army.

I thought you weren't committing the cardinal sin of looking through history through a Western lens? Children's minds are easily influenced? So what does it mean if you attack a city, kill all the men of fighting age but keep the women and children alive? You wind up with a nation growing up among you that's being taught to hate. Who's being taught to hate? The children. By who? Their mothers. The hate carries over until those children are of fighting age and then what happens? Insurrection. It really is an impossible thing to fight a people but keep the women and children alive... There's going to be from that point on just a little bit of hate that's going to grow into a big thing and then cause a big problem. Do I like killing children? Absolutely not. Guess what, though? They weren't exactly children in our modern understanding of children.

[Tuto]

I thought you weren't committing the cardinal sin of looking through history through a Western lens? Children's minds are easily influenced? So what does it mean if you attack a city, kill all the men of fighting age but keep the women and children alive? You wind up with a nation growing up among you that's being taught to hate. Who's being taught to hate? The children. By who? Their mothers. The hate carries over until those children are of fighting age and then what happens? Insurrection. It really is an impossible thing to fight a people but keep the women and children alive... There's going to be from that point on just a little bit of hate that's going to grow into a big thing and then cause a big problem. Do I like killing children? Absolutely not. Guess what, though? They weren't exactly children in our modern understanding of children.


Are you for real with this? This is something you usually hear from the likes of Hitler and Stalin. How a person grows up is not carved in stone even if he is influenced by his surroundings. If it was a fact that hate was always passed through generations there wouldn't be a single person left on this planet since history has seen so many wars that there wouldn't have been a second of peace for the human population to grow. By the way i don't get your point about me looking through western lens. As long as you don't judge human behavior during those times, based on what we know now it doesn't count.

[dljc]

I am a young guy so i have plenty of time to develop my thoughts, but if you ask me now, then i feel that I have to take that risk.

I have been thinking about this a lot and thats why i have come to these forums. I started of as an agnostic and still am, but now i am sure that its the correct way of thinking. I want to thank the members of this forum for helping me to come to this conclusion even though it probably isn't the one you were hoping. The reason why i came to this conclusion is not because of these forums, they just reaffirmed what i already believed. So thanks to all the members of this forum.Tuto,

Believe it or not I respect what you are saying here. I was once in your shoes myself and believe it or not there are many Christians in this forum that were too. I know because we've shared this among each other from time to time through our own testimonies.

All I would like to ask of you is this. Consider the second commandment given to us by Jesus "Love your neighbor as you love yourself". This is good practical advice even in today's time, Jesus said these words over 2000 years ago. I have talked to many atheists who say they can live by this commandment, it's just the first one that they have trouble with. You have heard the expression "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" (Treat people the way you want to be treated). That's pretty much the jist of the second commandment.

What happens if you have someone in your life through your job or as a neighbor, who harasses you all the time or at least at every opportunity, what happens when you are nice to them? It pretty much puts a damper on their harassment doesn't it? Now let me show you what it says in Romans 12:
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

What happens when in this same situation with this co-worker or neighbor when you return evil for evil? It can escalate to somebody getting seriously hurt or even killed right? Look at road rage for example. The person who is generally the guilty party is the one who is going to be the one cutting you off aren't they? If you speed up and cut them off, what's going to happen? Probably a fight or even death can be the result correct? In New Mexico there are signs up along the highways that say "Courtesy Pays". So even with a potential road rage situation, this would be a good rule of thumb. I personally like to ask people from New Mexico, how much ($$) does it pay? :lol: But that's just to strike up conversation with someone mostly when I'm passing through.

My point is, like the verses I gave you earlier on the cure for anxiety, these things have practical application even in this day and age. And they were spoken or even written thousands of years ago.

Look at this verse from Proverbs: 29:1 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

That's a pretty good example of a hard headed person wouldn't you say? You try to tell them not to do something a certain way, but they just won't listen.

Look at these verses from Proverbs 4:
14 Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men.

15 Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away.

16 For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall.

17 For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.

That's a pretty good description of a mischievous person wouldn't you say? They lose sleep trying to figure out how to get back at someone, or just anyone in general. In other words a random act of "unkindness". Those verses would have an application in this day and age too wouldn't it? Good sound advice for a parent to give to their child?

It is your choice, all I can do is help you to see what's really there in His Word.