Is Jesus the Son of God or God?

[LookingUp]

I have a question for those of you who have studied this before and have Scripture to back up the answer in a simple way. Thanks for any help. Here is the question…

If Christ Jesus is the Son of God, how can He also be God?

[DaniHansen]

Is the son of a person ... not a person?

[Xel'Naga]

Is the son of a person ... not a person?

It would not be the same person.

[Just a Door Keeper]

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a SON is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD......"
Isaiah 9:6

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; God was manifest in the flesh...." 1Tim.3:16

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD."
John 1:1
"And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:14

If Jesus Christ isn't God then who was it that paid for the sins of the whole world on the cross of Calvary, merely a man???? If only a man then you can pay for your sins yourself. But He IS God come to the earth to take on a man's body for the purpose of being put to death for the sins of the world, He payed the price for all and rose from the dead on the third day. Lets see any man do that!!!!

The Lord Jesus said to the Pharisees "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins." John 8:24
Note the I AM, it is a title of Almighty Lord God Jehovah Himself, (read Exodus 3:14) and Jesus uses the title for Himself.

[livingword26]

I have a question for those of you who have studied this before and have Scripture to back up the answer in a simple way. Thanks for any help. Here is the question…

If Christ Jesus is the Son of God, how can He also be God?Because that is what the bible teaches

1Jo 5:20
(20) And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given us an understanding so that we may know Him who is true. And we are in Him that is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and the everlasting life.

Eph 2:13
(13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


Act 20:28
(28) Therefore take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of God which He has purchased with His own blood.

[Butch5]

I have a question for those of you who have studied this before and have Scripture to back up the answer in a simple way. Thanks for any help. Here is the question…

If Christ Jesus is the Son of God, how can He also be God?

I think the confusion comes in with the understanding of the word God. Jesus and the Father are not the same in person hood. They are distinct from each other, as is the Holy Spirit. I think it is a misunderstanding of John 1:1 that is confusing. Many people read John 1:1 like this,


John 1:1 ( KJV ) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning was the word ( Jesus) and the word was with God (the Father) and the Word (Jesus) was God (the Father). This is not what the verse says, but I believe it is what causes so much confusion regarding the doctrine of the trinity. If you look in the NT you will find that most of the references to God are references to the Father, there are a few that refer to Jesus. However if you look at the Greek word in John 1:1 you can clear up the confusion rather easily. The Greek word for God is deity. Let's look at it again,

John 1:1 ( KJV ) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning was the Word (Jesus) and the Word (Jesus) was with God (Deity- The Father) and the Word(Jesus) was (Deity). Now we understand that the verse is saying that in the beginning Jesus was with the Father and Jesus was deity or divine. So we have no mystical magical doctrine, it is easily understandable. When we understand that when the Scriptures say that Jesus is God, God means deity or divine, there is no confusion. There are three aspects of the Trinity relative to Scripture, they are, nature, personal attributes, and order. Look at nature, Jesus is of the same nature as the Father, just as a child is of the same nature as his parent. The child is no more or no less human than the parent, they are equally human. So it is with Jesus and the Father, they are equally divine, Jesus being the Son of the Father is no more or less divine than the Father. So when the Scriptures speak of Jesus being equal with God, they are speaking of this aspect of nature, Jesus said, "I and the Father are one," this is speaking of nature. Now let's look at personal attributes, the Father alone is unbegotten, Jesus is the only begotten God (deity), this doesn't mean He is less divine than the Father, It is just a personal attribute of Jesus. Another personal attribute would be omniscience, Jesus said of the day of His return "no one knows the day or the hour but the Father," So we see that there is at least one thing that the Father knows that Jesus doesn't. Does this mean that Jesus is less divine than the Father? Not at all. Now let's look at order, Jesus is the second person of the trinity, The Father is the source of the trinity, the Son proceeds from the Father. This is how Jesus can say " the Father is greater than I" or " all authority has been given to me" because the Father is above all. So when we read the Scriptures we need to discern what is being spoken of, nature, personal attributes, or order. Many people read Jesus statement "the Father is greater than I" and think that somehow Jesus is a lesser God (deity) but this is speaking of order not nature, regarding nature the are equal. I know this is somewhat simplistic but I hope it helps clear up some of the confusion.

[markedward]

Matthew 8:28-29 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?

Jesus is called the Son of God.

John 5:18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John says that because Jesus is the Son of God (because His Father is God), then He is equal with God.

John 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Thomas calls Jesus "God" (not "Son of") and Jesus does not refute it.

So, in order of the previous: Jesus is the Son of God, thus making Him equal to God, thus making Him God. But there is still a "hierarchy" within the Trinity - the Father is still greater than the Son, because in the gospels and in the epistles we consistently see the Father as being described as having more authority than the Son. The Father gives authority to the Son. As Butch5 said, equal in their nature (i.e., they are the One God), but not in order.

[LookingUp]

Thank you all for your help. I think Butch got the gist of my question. I was really seeking how to explain HOW it is possible that Jesus can be both God AND God's Son at the same time. A long time ago, I had come to the conclusion that Christ Jesus is God. Recently a friend asked how it is possible that He be both. I have a hard time explaining that.

I've never heard that explanation before, Butch. I'll have to give that some thought.

Meanwhile, if anyone else would like to tackle this question... HOW can He be both at the same time, I welcome your input.


Butch & markedward,
Help me understand why it is okay to call Jesus "God" if the term used for Him is simply "deity". Didn't Thomas call Him, God?

Also, when Jesus said "I AM", isn't He saying He is the Father? How would you explain that.

Sorry if I’m a bit slow on this.

Thanks again for your help.

[Butch5]

Thank you all for your help. I think Butch got the gist of my question. I was really seeking how to explain HOW it is possible that Jesus can be both God AND God's Son at the same time. A long time ago, I had come to the conclusion that Christ Jesus is God. Recently a friend asked how it is possible that He be both. I have a hard time explaining that.

I've never heard that explanation before, Butch. I'll have to give that some thought.

Meanwhile, if anyone else would like to tackle this question... HOW can He be both at the same time, I welcome your input.


Butch & markedward,
Help me understand why it is okay to call Jesus "God" if the term used for Him is simply "deity". Didn't Thomas call Him, God?

Also, when Jesus said "I AM", isn't He saying He is the Father? How would you explain that.

Sorry if I’m a bit slow on this.

Thanks again for your help.

Hi Looking up,

When we say Jesus is God we are saying Jesus is divine. The Greek word is Theos which means divine. So, the Father is divine and Jesus is divine, but they are not the same person.

Actually I had Jesus statement I am in the example that I posted and took it out because it is Jesus who says I am both times. In the OT where God says I am it is Jesus speaking. Jesus said,


Luke 10:22 ( KJV ) 22All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Look at Exodus 3:14

Exodus 3:14-15 ( KJV ) 14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

The Hebrew word for Lord is Jehova, now look at Genesis 19


Genesis 19:24 ( KJV ) 24Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

If you read the chapter you will see that the three men appeared to Abraham, two were angles and the other was the Lord. Then we see in verse 24 it says the LORD rained down upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven. The LORD on the earth brought it forth from the LORD in heaven. In both places where the word LORD is used, it is Jehova. Jesus on the earth and the Father in heaven. It is the same as with the word Theos in Greek.

Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

H3068 יְהֹוָה yehôvâh yeh-ho-vaw' From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:—Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.

This goes back to one of the attributes, nature, both the Father and Jesus are eternal.

[ƒσяєяυииєя]

Hello Lookingup,

It`s written:

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; John 5:26

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.John 5:25.

Is there another being (Besides God) able to call a dead and bring him to everlasting life?

And remember the Trinity, The three are one. Heavenly math!!


Cya around.

[markedward]

Help me understand why it is okay to call Jesus "God" if the term used for Him is simply "deity". Didn't Thomas call Him, God?Calling Jesus "deity" is the same thing as calling Him "God". The word "deity" comes from the Latin word deus, which means "God".

In the Greek of John 1:1 (which the gospel of John was written in), Jesus is called theos, which is the Greek equivalent of deus, or deity, or God. Calling Jesus "deity" is no different than calling Him "God".

And yes, Thomas did call Jesus "God" (already mentioned above).

[LookingUp]

...There are three aspects of the Trinity relative to Scripture, they are, nature, personal attributes, and order. Look at nature, Jesus is of the same nature as the Father, just as a child is of the same nature as his parent. The child is no more or no less human than the parent, they are equally human. So it is with Jesus and the Father, they are equally divine, Jesus being the Son of the Father is no more or less divine than the Father. So when the Scriptures speak of Jesus being equal with God, they are speaking of this aspect of nature, Jesus said, "I and the Father are one," this is speaking of nature...
Hi Butch, I had a question about this. A CARM article on the trinity says this...

Jesus, the Son, is one person with two natures: Divine and Human. This is called the Hypostatic Union (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/2natures.htm)

If Jesus has the same divine nature as the Father but the Father does not have the same human nature as Jesus, what does Jesus mean when He says they are One? Does He mean they are One only in divine nature? Does He mean that He is equal to the Father BUT the Father is not equal to Him (in human nature)?

You mention the three aspects of the trinity. Would the human nature be a result of order?? And therefore really be in the category of order?

Sorry again... having a hard time wrapping my head around this. I need to be able to explain it to someone else.

Thanks!

edit to add: So, going back to the OP. Are you basically saying that Jesus can be the Son of God/Deity (Father) and also BE God/Deity because God is just another word for Deity and you need to read context to figure out if the Deity to which its referring is the Father or the Son?

[LookingUp]

Hi everyone!

I took all your comments and put together what I'm hoping will be clear and simple. Please give me your input. Thanks.

Here it is...

The Greek word in the New Testament for the word “God” is “Theos”. Theos means divine. So when we say Jesus IS God, we are saying Jesus IS divine or Deity. Therefore, Jesus can be the Son of God/Deity and BE God/Deity at the same time.

There is only one God/Deity (Isa. 44:6; 45:5; 46:9; Isa. 55:5; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; ). Both persons of the trinity, Father and Son, are one in Deity. They are equally God/Deity. Just as a side note, the Holy Spirit too is equally God/Deity.

The part that confuses people is that just because the person of Jesus is of the same Deity as the person of the Father (i.e. they are equally God), that does not mean that they are equal in function. For example, the Father chose who will be saved (Eph. 1:4), the Son redeemed them (Eph. 1:7); and the Holy Spirit sealed them (Eph. 1:13). Each person of the Deity has separate functions, yet it is one God/Deity who is responsible for accomplishing all that is done.

Another way of illustrating this is to consider that we are one yet we are made up of three; body, soul, and spirit (1 Thes. 5:23). I imagine we are triune beings because we are made in the image of our triune God. We say “the person of Christ Jesus” and “the person of the Father” and “the person of the Holy Spirit” because each is self aware, each can speak, each can feel, etc. Yet we say they are one. So here is the comparison…

Do we stop being one when our soul leaves our body? Our soul continues to “be a person” (i.e. a person is self aware, can speak, can feel, etc.). It is clear from Scripture that after our soul leaves our body, our soul is still aware and can speak and can feel (Luke 16:22-25; Rev. 6:9-11). Our body has a function, our soul has a function, our spirit has a function. Yet it is our entire unit who is responsible for accomplishing all that is done.

[Butch5]

Hi everyone!

I took all your comments and put together what I'm hoping will be clear and simple. Please give me your input. Thanks.

Here it is...

The Greek word in the New Testament for the word “God” is “Theos”. Theos means divine. So when we say Jesus IS God, we are saying Jesus IS divine or Deity. Therefore, Jesus can be the Son of God/Deity and BE God/Deity at the same time.

There is only one God/Deity (Isa. 44:6; 45:5; 46:9; Isa. 55:5; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; ). Both persons of the trinity, Father and Son, are one in Deity. They are equally God/Deity. Just as a side note, the Holy Spirit too is equally God/Deity.

The part that confuses people is that just because the person of Jesus is of the same Deity as the person of the Father (i.e. they are equally God), that does not mean that they are equal in function. For example, the Father chose who will be saved (Eph. 1:4), the Son redeemed them (Eph. 1:7); and the Holy Spirit sealed them (Eph. 1:13). Each person of the Deity has separate functions, yet it is one God/Deity who is responsible for accomplishing all that is done.

Another way of illustrating this is to consider that we are one yet we are made up of three; body, soul, and spirit (1 Thes. 5:23). I imagine we are triune beings because we are made in the image of our triune God. We say “the person of Christ Jesus” and “the person of the Father” and “the person of the Holy Spirit” because each is self aware, each can speak, each can feel, etc. Yet we say they are one. So here is the comparison…

Do we stop being one when our soul leaves our body? Our soul continues to “be a person” (i.e. a person is self aware, can speak, can feel, etc.). It is clear from Scripture that after our soul leaves our body, our soul is still aware and can speak and can feel (Luke 16:22-25; Rev. 6:9-11). Our body has a function, our soul has a function, our spirit has a function. Yet it is our entire unit who is responsible for accomplishing all that is done.

Hi Looking up, You seem to have it.

[Butch5]

Hi everyone!

I took all your comments and put together what I'm hoping will be clear and simple. Please give me your input. Thanks.

Here it is...

The Greek word in the New Testament for the word “God” is “Theos”. Theos means divine. So when we say Jesus IS God, we are saying Jesus IS divine or Deity. Therefore, Jesus can be the Son of God/Deity and BE God/Deity at the same time.

There is only one God/Deity (Isa. 44:6; 45:5; 46:9; Isa. 55:5; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; ). Both persons of the trinity, Father and Son, are one in Deity. They are equally God/Deity. Just as a side note, the Holy Spirit too is equally God/Deity.

The part that confuses people is that just because the person of Jesus is of the same Deity as the person of the Father (i.e. they are equally God), that does not mean that they are equal in function. For example, the Father chose who will be saved (Eph. 1:4), the Son redeemed them (Eph. 1:7); and the Holy Spirit sealed them (Eph. 1:13). Each person of the Deity has separate functions, yet it is one God/Deity who is responsible for accomplishing all that is done.

Another way of illustrating this is to consider that we are one yet we are made up of three; body, soul, and spirit (1 Thes. 5:23). I imagine we are triune beings because we are made in the image of our triune God. We say “the person of Christ Jesus” and “the person of the Father” and “the person of the Holy Spirit” because each is self aware, each can speak, each can feel, etc. Yet we say they are one. So here is the comparison…

Do we stop being one when our soul leaves our body? Our soul continues to “be a person” (i.e. a person is self aware, can speak, can feel, etc.). It is clear from Scripture that after our soul leaves our body, our soul is still aware and can speak and can feel (Luke 16:22-25; Rev. 6:9-11). Our body has a function, our soul has a function, our spirit has a function. Yet it is our entire unit who is responsible for accomplishing all that is done.

Hi Looking up, You seem to have it, although the body as an example is kind of difficult because people will say if your spirit leave the body the body will die. I don't know if you are allowed to post links to page that sell products, if I am wrong can some please let me know? I will post a link where you can download a teaching on the Trinity as it is understood by the early church. I have no affiliation with this site, I find the teachings on the early church to be excellent.

http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/product133.html

[LookingUp]

Thanks Butch. What do you think of the chages below in bold? If you have any better way to communicate it, let me know. I'll be sending this to my friend this week. Thanks.

The Greek word in the New Testament for the word “God” is “Theos”. Theos means divine. So when we say Jesus IS God, we are saying Jesus IS divine or Deity. Therefore, Jesus can be the Son of God/Deity and BE God/Deity at the same time.

There is only one God/Deity (Isa. 44:6; 45:5; 46:9; Isa. 55:5; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; ). Both persons of the trinity, Father and Son, are one in Deity. They are equally God/Deity. Just as a side note, the Holy Spirit too is equally God/Deity.

The part that confuses people is that just because the person of Jesus is of the same Deity as the person of the Father (i.e. they are equally God), that does not mean that they are equal in function. For example, the Father chose who will be saved (Eph. 1:4), the Son redeems them (Eph. 1:7); and the Holy Spirit seals them (Eph. 1:13). Each person of the Deity has separate functions, yet it is one God/Deity who is responsible for accomplishing all that is done.

Another way of illustrating this is to consider that we are one yet we are made up of three; body, soul, and spirit (1 Thes. 5:23). I imagine we are triune beings because we are made in the image of our triune God who is One. We say “the person of Christ Jesus” and “the person of the Father” and “the person of the Holy Spirit” because each is self aware, each can speak, each can feel, etc. They are each a “person”, they each have a function, yet they are one. In a similar way, our body has a function, our soul has a function, our spirit has a function. Yet it is our entire unit who is responsible for accomplishing all that is done in this life.

To further illustrate that we are one made up of three, Scripture shows that our soul is still a person independent of the body. After our soul leaves our body, our soul is still aware and can speak and can feel (Luke 16:22-25; Rev. 6:9-11). Therefore, our soul continues to be a person. This is a somewhat flawed comparison because we are not God/Deity, we are merely made in His image. Therefore our body dies without the spirit that gives it breath. However, we all will be resurrected and we will be united as body, soul, and spirit once again, to face our eternal destiny in this very form.

[Butch5]

Thanks Butch. What do you think of the chages below in bold? If you have any better way to communicate it, let me know. I'll be sending this to my friend this week. Thanks.

The Greek word in the New Testament for the word “God” is “Theos”. Theos means divine. So when we say Jesus IS God, we are saying Jesus IS divine or Deity. Therefore, Jesus can be the Son of God/Deity and BE God/Deity at the same time.

There is only one God/Deity (Isa. 44:6; 45:5; 46:9; Isa. 55:5; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; ). Both persons of the trinity, Father and Son, are one in Deity. They are equally God/Deity. Just as a side note, the Holy Spirit too is equally God/Deity.

The part that confuses people is that just because the person of Jesus is of the same Deity as the person of the Father (i.e. they are equally God), that does not mean that they are equal in function. For example, the Father chose who will be saved (Eph. 1:4), the Son redeems them (Eph. 1:7); and the Holy Spirit seals them (Eph. 1:13). Each person of the Deity has separate functions, yet it is one God/Deity who is responsible for accomplishing all that is done.

Another way of illustrating this is to consider that we are one yet we are made up of three; body, soul, and spirit (1 Thes. 5:23). I imagine we are triune beings because we are made in the image of our triune God who is One. We say “the person of Christ Jesus” and “the person of the Father” and “the person of the Holy Spirit” because each is self aware, each can speak, each can feel, etc. They are each a “person”, they each have a function, yet they are one. In a similar way, our body has a function, our soul has a function, our spirit has a function. Yet it is our entire unit who is responsible for accomplishing all that is done in this life.

To further illustrate that we are one made up of three, Scripture shows that our soul is still a person independent of the body. After our soul leaves our body, our soul is still aware and can speak and can feel (Luke 16:22-25; Rev. 6:9-11). Therefore, our soul continues to be a person. This is a somewhat flawed comparison because we are not God/Deity, we are merely made in His image. Therefore our body dies without the spirit that gives it breath. However, we all will be resurrected and we will be united as body, soul, and spirit once again, to face our eternal destiny in this very form.

Hi Lookingup,

When you say the 3 are 1 it gets confusing to people. Comparing the body is problematic in that people will confuse it with God being one person. Let's use the Jewish family as an example. Let's say the dad's name is Smith (not Jewish I know). The dad is the head (order) of the family. His son John Smith is the first born. He is no less (nature) is a Smith than His dad, yet He is under the authority of his dad. They are equally Smith. The son may have red hair, this is a (personal attribute) of the son, which can differ from the dad. So while the son is under the authority (order) of his dad he is not less of a smith (nature) than his dad .
This is kind of crude also but it let's people understand that the 3 are individual yet they are all divine. If you listen to that mp3 it will really make things easier to understand.

[David Taylor]

Thank you all for your help. I think Butch got the gist of my question. I was really seeking how to explain HOW it is possible that Jesus can be both God AND God's Son at the same time.

They are not the same 'individual'...they are distinct.
1) God the Father
2) God the Son


However, they are of the same essence and material and for lack of a better term 'species'.....aka Divine Deity. They are of the substance of God; which is eternal, sinless, creator, divine, holy, perfect, just, omniscient, omnipotent, etc....

There is only on 'being' in the universe that is God in substance and nature; yet God is manifested to us in three uniquely individualistic persons; The Father, Son, and Spirit.

One God in substance and nature; three distinct individuals within the Godhead.

[Butch5]

They are not the same 'individual'...they are distinct.
1) God the Father
2) God the Son


However, they are of the same essence and material and for lack of a better term 'species'.....aka Divine Deity. They are of the substance of God; which is eternal, sinless, creator, divine, holy, perfect, just, omniscient, omnipotent, etc....

There is only on 'being' in the universe that is God in substance and nature; yet God is manifested to us in three uniquely individualistic persons; The Father, Son, and Spirit.

One God in substance and nature; three distinct individuals within the Godhead.

Hi David,

I would be careful with the word being, people think of one person and it gets confusing.

[LookingUp]

Okay guys, more questions...

Why is it not good to say "3 in 1"? God is One. There is only one God/Deity.

As far as we know, the Deity/God is made up of three persons, right?

Doesn't that mean that the three make up the One God?


Also,
If God can be made up of three distinct persons, how do we know there are not more?



Lastly, what did you mean that it's not a good idea to use the word "being" for God? Is there a better way to describe God?


Wait, one more... how would you define "begotten"? How is Jesus eternal if He is begotten?

Thanks!

[Butch5]

LookingUp---Okay guys, more questions...

Why is it not good to say "3 in 1"? God is One. There is only one God/Deity.


3 in 1 is not confusing, the problem is, when we say God most people immediately think of the Father. Most of the NT references are to the Father. The confusion comes from the way people understand the word God. If you say God, do you mean deity or do you mean the Father? When you say 3 in 1 God most people think three person making up one person.

LookingUp---As far as we know, the Deity/God is made up of three persons, right?

Doesn't that mean that the three make up the One God?

Yes this is correct, we understand because we are discussing it. However as I stated above, many people think of three persons making up one person, that is what causes the confusion. The vast majority of people do not think of deity when you say God they think of the Father.


LookingUp---Also, If God can be made up of three distinct persons, how do we know there are not more?


Because God told us there were three.



LookingUp---Lastly, what did you mean that it's not a good idea to use the word "being" for God? Is there a better way to describe God?

Again, being implies person, and as I stated above that causes confusion.


LookingUp---Wait, one more... how would you define "begotten"? How is Jesus eternal if He is begotten?

Jesus proceeds for the Father, try to imagine it like this, when a ray of light comes from the sun, even though the ray is different than the sun it had it's origin in the sun and therefore as long as the sun has existed the ray has existed.

[LookingUp]

3 in 1 is not confusing, the problem is, when we say God most people immediately think of the Father. Most of the NT references are to the Father. The confusion comes from the way people understand the word God. If you say God, do you mean deity or do you mean the Father? When you say 3 in 1 God most people think three person making up one person.

Yes this is correct, we understand because we are discussing it. However as I stated above, many people think of three persons making up one person, that is what causes the confusion. The vast majority of people do not think of deity when you say God they think of the Father.Oh, I see.

Because God told us there were three.Oh, I realize He told us there were three. But He didn't tell us there were only three. This is a reasonable question that I'd like to feel comfortable responding to.

How would one respond to that? At this point, I would simply say, we can only go off of what Scripture says and not add to it. IOW, we cannot entertain the thought there are more than three persons in the Godhead because Scripture does not confirm it. What would you say? Do you have a better way to answer that?

Again, being implies person, and as I stated above that causes confusion.Hmmm... God is not a person. God is not an human being. What word would you use since these are not accurate?

Jesus proceeds for the Father, try to imagine it like this, when a ray of light comes from the sun, even though the ray is different than the sun it had it's origin in the sun and therefore as long as the sun has existed the ray has existed.This is cool! Thank you!

Jesus is eternally begotten, right? Isn't that what the ray illustration demonstrates? The ray is generated (begotten) by the sun. It seems 1 John 4:9 supports that He was the Son BEFORE He came into the world. Would you agree?
1Jo 4:9 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1jo+4:9&version=nsn&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) By this (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3778&version=nas) the love (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=26&version=nas) of God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=nas) was manifested (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5319&version=nas) in us, that God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=nas) has sent (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=649&version=nas) His only (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3439&version=nas) begotten (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3439&version=nas) Son (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5207&version=nas) into the world (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2889&version=nas) so (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2443&version=nas) that we might live (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2198&version=nas) through (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1223&version=nas) Him.



But I had thought "begotten" related to His being made in the flesh. How could that be eternal? There was a point in time that He was made flesh.

Ac 13:33 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=ac+13:33&version=nsn&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) that God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=nas) has fulfilled (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1603&version=nas) this (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3778&version=nas) promise to our children (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5043&version=nas) in that He raised (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=450&version=nas) up Jesus (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2424&version=nas), as it is also (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=nas) written (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1125&version=nas) in the second (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1208&version=nas) Psalm (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5568&version=nas), 'YOU ARE MY SON (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5207&version=nas); TODAY (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4594&version=nas) I HAVE BEGOTTEN (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1080&version=nas) YOU.'

Heb 1:5 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=heb+1:5&version=nsn&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) For to which (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5101&version=nas) of the angels did He ever (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4218&version=nas) say (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3004&version=nas), "YOU ARE MY SON (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5207&version=nas), TODAY (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4594&version=nas) I HAVE BEGOTTEN (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1080&version=nas) YOU"? And again (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3825&version=nas), "I WILL BE A FATHER (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3962&version=nas) TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5207&version=nas) TO ME"?

Heb 5:5 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=heb+5:5&version=nsn&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) So (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3779&version=nas) also (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=nas) Christ (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5547&version=nas) did not glorify (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1392&version=nas) Himself (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1438&version=nas) so as to become (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1096&version=nas) a high (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=749&version=nas) priest (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=749&version=nas), but He who (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5101&version=nas) said (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2980&version=nas) to Him, "YOU ARE MY SON (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5207&version=nas), TODAY (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4594&version=nas) I HAVE BEGOTTEN (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1080&version=nas) YOU";


Doesn't this say that He was begotten on a particular day?

Was the Son both eternally begotten ("eternal ray generated by the eternal sun") and begotten in the flesh in a particular moment in time? :confused

[LookingUp]

By the way, thank you ALL for helping me with this. I LOVE LOVE LOVE this place of fellowship where I know I can turn to others who love the Word and search to know Him better.

http://www.rr-bb.com/images/smilies/ring.gif

[markedward]

I don't see the problem with using the word "being". Maybe it causes confusion for you, Butch5, and perhaps people you know, but in all of my discussions with people about the trinity up to this point, you're the only person who has ever said using the word "being" would confuse people.

A "being" is just that; a living entity that "be" (i.e, that is, meaning the entity exists). God is very much a "being"... HE BE (re: "I AM"). Calling God a "being" isn't a problem...

[Butch5]

I don't see the problem with using the word "being". Maybe it causes confusion for you, Butch5, and perhaps people you know, but in all of my discussions with people about the trinity up to this point, you're the only person who has ever said using the word "being" would confuse people.

A "being" is just that; a living entity that "be" (i.e, that is, meaning the entity exists). God is very much a "being"... HE BE (re: "I AM"). Calling God a "being" isn't a problem...

I have no problem with the word being. God the Father is a being, as is the Son and the Spirit. However if you say God as the Trinity (Father, Son, and Spirit) combined, this is not a being, it is 3 beings. The problem is when you say God, most people think of God the Father, when you say Jesus is God, they thing that Jesus is God the Father. Therefore they come away believing that the Father and the son are one being and this is not the case

[Butch5]

Oh, I see.

Oh, I realize He told us there were three. But He didn't tell us there were only three. This is a reasonable question that I'd like to feel comfortable responding to.

How would one respond to that? At this point, I would simply say, we can only go off of what Scripture says and not add to it. IOW, we cannot entertain the thought there are more than three persons in the Godhead because Scripture does not confirm it. What would you say? Do you have a better way to answer that?

Hmmm... God is not a person. God is not an human being. What word would you use since these are not accurate?

This is cool! Thank you!

Jesus is eternally begotten, right? Isn't that what the ray illustration demonstrates? The ray is generated (begotten) by the sun. It seems 1 John 4:9 supports that He was the Son BEFORE He came into the world. Would you agree?
1Jo 4:9 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1jo+4:9&version=nsn&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) By this (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3778&version=nas) the love (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=26&version=nas) of God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=nas) was manifested (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5319&version=nas) in us, that God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=nas) has sent (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=649&version=nas) His only (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3439&version=nas) begotten (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3439&version=nas) Son (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5207&version=nas) into the world (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2889&version=nas) so (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2443&version=nas) that we might live (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2198&version=nas) through (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1223&version=nas) Him.



But I had thought "begotten" related to His being made in the flesh. How could that be eternal? There was a point in time that He was made flesh.

Ac 13:33 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=ac+13:33&version=nsn&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) that God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=nas) has fulfilled (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1603&version=nas) this (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3778&version=nas) promise to our children (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5043&version=nas) in that He raised (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=450&version=nas) up Jesus (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2424&version=nas), as it is also (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=nas) written (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1125&version=nas) in the second (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1208&version=nas) Psalm (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5568&version=nas), 'YOU ARE MY SON (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5207&version=nas); TODAY (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4594&version=nas) I HAVE BEGOTTEN (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1080&version=nas) YOU.'

Heb 1:5 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=heb+1:5&version=nsn&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) For to which (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5101&version=nas) of the angels did He ever (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4218&version=nas) say (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3004&version=nas), "YOU ARE MY SON (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5207&version=nas), TODAY (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4594&version=nas) I HAVE BEGOTTEN (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1080&version=nas) YOU"? And again (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3825&version=nas), "I WILL BE A FATHER (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3962&version=nas) TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5207&version=nas) TO ME"?

Heb 5:5 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=heb+5:5&version=nsn&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) So (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3779&version=nas) also (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=nas) Christ (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5547&version=nas) did not glorify (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1392&version=nas) Himself (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1438&version=nas) so as to become (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1096&version=nas) a high (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=749&version=nas) priest (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=749&version=nas), but He who (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5101&version=nas) said (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2980&version=nas) to Him, "YOU ARE MY SON (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5207&version=nas), TODAY (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4594&version=nas) I HAVE BEGOTTEN (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1080&version=nas) YOU";


Doesn't this say that He was begotten on a particular day?

Was the Son both eternally begotten ("eternal ray generated by the eternal sun") and begotten in the flesh in a particular moment in time? :confused

Hi looking up

This is kind of vague, the Hebrew word for this day, has wide range of meaning. It can mean a day it can also mean a period of time. Begotten can apply to the birth in the flesh but even it this is the case Jesus appeared in the OT in flesh also so I think there is more to it than just His birth at Bethlehem. He proceeds from God so think it can also mean his origin. I have not found a lot in Scripture to make a definite distinction.

[Alaska]

Was the Son both eternally begotten ("eternal ray generated by the eternal sun") and begotten in the flesh in a particular moment in time? :confused


Jesus, in the form of "the Word", before taking on a human form, was not "eternally begotten" since this denotes a time when "the Word" did not exist, while as we know that "the Word" was God and has always been God.

Now to part 2 of the question:
Yes, Jesus was begotten in the flesh in a particular moment in time.
That is why "begotten" is used since it relates to conception and birth of the flesh. Your application of "begotten" in part one of your question is innappropriate.
The Creator that he was before he pulled off this great feat of manifesting himself in the form of the Son does not change the fact that he existed from everlasting.
It is a great mystery that God, who is the Word, was able to manifest himself in the flesh, being the Son, our source of Godliness, God in us the hope of glory.

1 Tim. 3:
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This mystery should simply be accepted by faith without having to rationally explain it.
But no, an explanation has to be presented by some folks that seeks to satisfy limited human reasoning, at the expense of raping the verses showing this to be an extremely deep mystery and turning the monotheistic foundation of Christianity into a perverted polytheistic Catholocized bastardization of the truth.

[ƒσяєяυииєя]

Hello Looking up,


Doesn't this say that He was begotten on a particular day?

Was the Son both eternally begotten ("eternal ray generated by the eternal sun") and begotten in the flesh in a particular moment in time?


There is a verse conveying the idea/thought, of Christ being the Son of God even before the creation of this world:

"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2

It was so old, that for our finite mind it is "from everlasting"

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Hebrews 10:5-7.


Go well

[snovak7]

I have a question for those of you who have studied this before and have Scripture to back up the answer in a simple way. Thanks for any help. Here is the question…

If Christ Jesus is the Son of God, how can He also be God?

There is diversity on such a topic:

But here's one interesting question for you!
If we through Jesus have access to God and we are children of God, doesn't this makes us sons of God aswell? Even gods?

Psa 82:6, Jn10:34-36

[David Taylor]

Not in nature and substance...only adopted relationship.

God alone is divine, eternal, omnipotent, sinless deity.

[MrsPierce]

I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. They beleive that Jesus is the son of God but that he is not to be worshiped. They beleive that God is the only one that is worthy of worship. They also beleive that Jesus was the first thing created by God, that he was actually the first angel that was ever created. As I grew up that is what was taught to me since I was a small child and I never questioned it. After I grew up I fell away from the JW's faith. There is a lot of their theology that I feel to be false. One thing I feel is false is the denial of the deity of Christ and the denial of the trinity.

When I was about 30 I started attending one of my local baptist churches. I enjoyed going and liked what they taught. Then they started talking about the trinity. I could not understand it. I did not think that it was correct, due to my upbringing. One of the hardest things for me to swallow was that Christ could be worshiped. I did some studying to see what I could find. One thing that convinced me that Jesus was worthy of worship was in the story of the birth of Christ in Matthew. Matthew 2:11 says:

After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him.

Again in Matthew 14:33, this is where the diciples are with Jesus in the storm where he walks on water, it says:

And those who were in the boat worshiped Him saying, "You are certainly God's Son!"

Taking into consideration that God makes it clear through the entire bible that we as His children are not to worship anyone but him it is clear to me that Jesus and God are of the same essence and are both deity and are both worthy of our worship. If not, when the diciples started to worship him in the boat Jesus would have reprimanded them for doing such a thing. Being sinless He would not have been able to allow them to do something that would have obviously been considered a violation against God.

What is interesting to me is that the Jehovah's Witness's have changed their bible, the New World Testiment and taken out the word worship in both of the referenced scriptures, only two of several more instances. Their version has the word obeisance in place of the word worship. The definition of obeisance, I had to look it up, is:

1. A gesture or movement of the body, such as a curtsy, that expresses deference or homage.
2. An attitude of deference or homage.

They say that the act of obeisance is ok, it may be offered to Christ because it is not worship in the sense that we think of worship when we worship God. Instead it is showing reverance for the authority of Christ being God's son. The greek word that they have translated as obeisance in place of worship is proskuneo. What is interesting is if you look in Acts 10:24-28, where Cornelius bows to Peter, and yes the word used is proskuneo, Peter tells him, Cornelius to rise because he is merely a man. This passage in their bible uses the word obeisance. And it still says that Peter would not allow Cornelius to worship him in such a way. So why could Jesus be offered obeisance but not Peter? Clearly this word means more than the JW's claim it to mean in reference to worshiping Christ.

So getting back to my point. This is what has convinced me that worshiping Christ is something that we should do. Since we are commanded to only worship God, then Jesus must be in essence God. One in the same but different. That is what helped me to grasp the reality of the trinity.

One way that I was told, and I used it to explain to my children is this. Think of an egg. Three distinct parts. The shell, the white and the yoke. All have their distinct job or purpose, all three can be independent of each other, but without one part you do not have an egg. They all have an equally important role in being an egg. Not one part is more important than the other. They are all equally valuble.

I have family members that are deeply devoted JW's that have tried to convert me back to going to church with them. I know how hard it is trying to defend a dificult concept to someone who holds completely different views. I will pray for you that whoever it is that you are speaking to is receptive to what you have to say.

I hope that what I have said is helpful.

[Iliana]

Hi,

First of all I do believe Jesus is God-it makes sense to me and there are many things in the Bible pointing to that. But this subject can be hard to explain to others, especially even when I myself still have questions on why things are a certain way. So...

Something I was also wondering about is why exactly is he called God's son, instead of something more direct that would cause less confusion for people?
He refers to himself as this, even God says "...this is my beloved Son..." Why doesn't he refer to himself as God directly?

I read some people here saying that Son of Man= man, so the Son of God= God. But I don't really agree with that statement because you can say for instance the son of Abraham=Isaac...but Isaac is not Abraham. Saying he is the Son of God does not necessarily mean he is God. Or the son of man(ie human)=another human-it's not the same human.

Also is anywhere in the Bible he referred to as God the Son?

[treasureman]

Jesus is the Son of God but by faith we as Christians believe in The Blessed Trinity which is God, Jesus and Holy Spirit so Jesus is God too.

[Shinichi Kudo]

Ephesians 4:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
John 10:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=10&verse=36&version=31&context=verse)
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?
John 11:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=11&verse=27&version=31&context=verse)
"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world."
John 13:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=13&verse=31&version=31&context=verse)
[ Jesus Predicts Peter's Denial ] When he was gone, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him.
John 13:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=13&verse=32&version=31&context=verse)
If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once.
John 20:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=20&verse=31&version=31&context=verse)
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Theology term use Trinity to explain about GOD the Father, Son of GOD and Holy Spirit. I guess you got confused...Son of GOD is of course GOD...

[Butch5]

Hi,

First of all I do believe Jesus is God-it makes sense to me and there are many things in the Bible pointing to that. But this subject can be hard to explain to others, especially even when I myself still have questions on why things are a certain way. So...

Something I was also wondering about is why exactly is he called God's son, instead of something more direct that would cause less confusion for people?
He refers to himself as this, even God says "...this is my beloved Son..." Why doesn't he refer to himself as God directly?

I read some people here saying that Son of Man= man, so the Son of God= God. But I don't really agree with that statement because you can say for instance the son of Abraham=Isaac...but Isaac is not Abraham. Saying he is the Son of God does not necessarily mean he is God. Or the son of man(ie human)=another human-it's not the same human.

Also is anywhere in the Bible he referred to as God the Son?

Hi Iliana,

I think I answered your questions in post #6 of this thread

[Iliana]

Hi,

I actually did read that post of yours, and reread it just now, but no it doesn't answer my questions-maybe a little the last one though.

Also what you said here:

Another personal attribute would be omniscience, Jesus said of the day of His return "no one knows the day or the hour but the Father," So we see that there is at least one thing that the Father knows that Jesus doesn't. Does this mean that Jesus is less divine than the Father? Not at all.

Is not an answer at all, unless I missed something. Maybe explain why, instead of just saying "no" :)

[Lordistruth]

However if you say God as the Trinity (Father, Son, and Spirit) combined, this is not a being, it is 3 beings. The problem is when you say God, most people think of God the Father, when you say Jesus is God, they thing that Jesus is God the Father. Therefore they come away believing that the Father and the son are one being and this is not the case


Is this not dangerously close to polytheism?

If I said that I believed in 1 god known as Olympus, but three beings made up Olympus - Zeus, Poseiden, and Hades. Would I be a monotheist?

[David Taylor]

Is this not dangerously close to polytheism?

If I said that I believed in 1 god known as Olympus, but three beings made up Olympus - Zeus, Poseiden, and Hades. Would I be a monotheist?

Firstly: Zeus, Poseiden, and Hades, are not gods to begin with; they don't exist and are figments of pagan imaginations.

Secondly: The Trinity is one God in one nature and one substance; within the godhead there is individualism; however there is also 100% perfect harmony and agreement.

In polytheistic religions; there are many gods who are all individualistic; and not of the same nature, substance, harmony, and agreement.

That is the difference.

Of all the universe, only God has the nature and substance of eternal, divine, everlasting, omniscient, omnipotent, perfection.

That God has revealed Himself in three individual ways to us; does not create three separate and different Gods as polythiesm contains.

One God. Three in One.

[markdrums]

Is this not dangerously close to polytheism?

If I said that I believed in 1 god known as Olympus, but three beings made up Olympus - Zeus, Poseiden, and Hades. Would I be a monotheist?


The best & easiest example I can give, that might help you get a little better idea is "AN EGG".

One Egg is made up of three distinct parts.
The Shell
The Yolk
The White.

All three are equally egg, yet have different purposes.
No single part is any more or any less egg than the others.

It takes all three parts to actually make up that one egg.

*it's a crude example... but it gives an idea*

[Lordistruth]

The best & easiest example I can give, that might help you get a little better idea is "AN EGG".

One Egg is made up of three distinct parts.
The Shell
The Yolk
The White.

All three are equally egg, yet have different purposes.
No single part is any more or any less egg than the others.

It takes all three parts to actually make up that one egg.

So you could think of it like Family

One Family is made up of three distinct parts.
The Father
The Mother
The Son

All three are equally family, yet have different purposes.
No single part is any more or any less family than the others.

Firstly: Zeus, Poseiden, and Hades, are not gods to begin with; they don't exist and are figments of pagan imaginations.


Remember, I said "if." I'm just bringing up likely obstacles that this subject can bring up.

The Trinity is one God in one nature and one substance; within the godhead there is individualism; however there is also 100% perfect harmony and agreement.


But couldn't one argue that the only difference between the Olympus god and God is the fact that our God all agree with each other?

One more question - Are we saying that the three different parts of the Trinity have a seperate sentience?

[markdrums]

So you could think of it like Family

One Family is made up of three distinct parts.
The Father
The Mother
The Son

All three are equally family, yet have different purposes.
No single part is any more or any less family than the others.



Remember, I said "if." I'm just bringing up likely obstacles that this subject can bring up.



But couldn't one argue that the only difference between the Olympus god and God is the fact that our God all agree with each other?

One more question - Are we saying that the three different parts of the Trinity have a seperate sentience?


Kidna like family in a way.... but you can have more than 3 parts of a family.. (or less than 3.... )

There's another HUGE difference than Olympus & GOD of the Bible... Only one of them is TURE God, & the creator of everything.... ;)

As far as separate sentinence, I'd have to disagree with that idea. All 3 "persons / identities" of God work as one. So, "feelings" & thoughts would be shared simultaneously.

[Lordistruth]

As far as separate sentinence, I'd have to disagree with that idea. All 3 "persons / identities" of God work as one. So, "feelings" & thoughts would be shared simultaneously.
If this is the case, why would Jesus cry out "Father, why have you foresaken me!" or say "Forgive them father, they know not what they do."? Wouldn't he have said something like, "I Forgive you for you do not know what you are doing."

[markdrums]

If this is the case, why would Jesus cry out "Father, why have you foresaken me!" or say "Forgive them father, they know not what they do."? Wouldn't he have said something like, "I Forgive you for you do not know what you are doing."


He was quoting Old Testament scripture from David,
Psa 22:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=22&v=1&t=KJV#1)[[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?

God (The Father) had not literally forsaken him.....
Jesus was making it known that he was fulfilling the prophecy of the plalms.

[Lordistruth]

Sorry for my ignorance, but does that verse have particular significance to the Messiah? I mean, why did he choose that particular verse?

God (The Father) had not literally forsaken him.....

That is an acutal impossiblility since they are the same thing, right?

thanks for the insight though!

Any thoughts on the second part fo the question?

or say "Forgive them father, they know not what they do."? Wouldn't he have said something like, "I Forgive you for you do not know what you are doing."

[ƒσяєяυииєя]

Hello Truth,

or say "Forgive them father, they know not what they do."? Wouldn't he have said something like, "I Forgive you for you do not know what you are doing."

You know Jesus when on this earth, was as a Prophet, and then when He went back to Heaven He became Prist, and in the glorious day He will have become in the office of King...

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zechariah 14:9
And knowing Jesus when He said "Forgive them father, they know not what they do." He was acting as prophet, for He knew that many of the people who was now night the cross would follow Him later.

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; John 17:20


Go well
correct me if I am wrong

[markdrums]

Sorry for my ignorance, but does that verse have particular significance to the Messiah? I mean, why did he choose that particular verse?



That is an acutal impossiblility since they are the same thing, right?

thanks for the insight though!

Any thoughts on the second part fo the question?

You missed the last point in my post:
;)

Jesus was making it known that he was fulfilling the prophecy of the psalms.

The priests in Jesus' lifetime were very familiar with OT scripture! When Jesus quoted this verse, they knew he was STILL, even to his death, claiming deity as the True Son of God.

[Butch5]

Hi,

I actually did read that post of yours, and reread it just now, but no it doesn't answer my questions-maybe a little the last one though.

Also what you said here:



Is not an answer at all, unless I missed something. Maybe explain why, instead of just saying "no" :)

Hi Ilianna,

I said not at all because omniscience is a personal attribute, it is a personal attribute of God the Father. It is not a personal attribute of Jesus, as He said He did not know the day or the hour. Jesus and the Father are equal in nature or essence. They are both equally divine. Yet the differ in personal attributes and order.

[markdrums]

Hi Ilianna,

I said not at all because omniscience is a personal attribute, it is a personal attribute of God the Father. It is not a personal attribute of Jesus, as He said He did not know the day or the hour. Jesus and the Father are equal in nature or essence. They are both equally divine. Yet the differ in personal attributes and order.

In some sense that's correct about "not knowing"....
But Jesus was ONLY referring to the "HUMAN" part of his physical manifestation.... But, he was STILL 100% divine. And the GOD-MAN would indeed have known.
;)

[Butch5]

In some sense that's correct about "not knowing"....
But Jesus was ONLY referring to the "HUMAN" part of his physical manifestation.... But, he was STILL 100% divine. And the GOD-MAN would indeed have known.
;)

Hi Markdrums,

Do you have Scripture that shows this? Where in Scripture are we told that Jesus did not know the day or the Hour only in His humanity?

Where does Jesus tell us He is only referring to His human part?

I never even hinted that Jesus was less divine because He didn't know the day or the hour, as a matter of fact my point was that, because, Jesus did not know the day or the our He was "no less" divine.

[GitRDunn]

I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread yet, but I can see many people have posted the scriptures that show that Jesus is the Son of God and God, so I won't waste time saying the same thing. What I will do is post this (http://www.letusreason.org/Trin7.htm) link which is to an article that explains very well how Jesus can be both the Son of God and God at the same time. Sorry if someone's already covered this, but like I said, I haven't had time to read the whole thread.

[markdrums]

Hi Markdrums,

Do you have Scripture that shows this? Where in Scripture are we told that Jesus did not know the day or the Hour only in His humanity?

Where does Jesus tell us He is only referring to His human part?

I never even hinted that Jesus was less divine because He didn't know the day or the hour, as a matter of fact my point was that, because, Jesus did not know the day or the our He was "no less" divine.


Jesus is FULLY God. We both agree there.
Now then, let's look at that passage in question:
Mat 24:36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=24&v=1&t=KJV#comm/36) But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

What else do we know about Jesus' deity?

Jhn 10:30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=10&v=30&t=KJV#comm/30) I and [my] Father are one.

So if they are one, (Equal in deity & knowledge) Jesus "The Son of God" definitely knew (and knows) that day & hour.

He never actually says HE doesn't know..... He says "no MAN; and no angels of Heaven..."

Just as he never comes out & blatantly says, "I AM GOD", he never says, HE doesn't know the day or the hour.

But because of Jesus' statements & miracles & everything else about him, we DO KNOW he IS God.
GOD knows that time, so Jesus ALSO knew (and knows) the time.
;)

[Alaska]

It was so old, that for our finite mind it is "from everlasting"



Then He wasn't really from everlasting then, was he?
So was Jesus created?

God has been from old whose goings forth have been from everlasting.
The prophet could declare this about Jesus because though Jesus had not been begotten, the Word, which is God existed and he determined a time to manifest himself as the Son.
Three persons in one person, a deep mystery.
Three persons in one God is often explained to make an unscriptural separation between the three like polytheism, and no wonder, it came from the catholic church.
This mystery should be distanced as far as possible from the catholics and given another name like the mystery of the Godhead.
All the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus.
Before Abraham was He was even though He had not yet been begotten.
This should be accepted, not desecrated by a cheap trinity explanation that turns Christianity polytheistic.
A man can be a father a son and a teacher all at the same time.
God was able to be all three, Father Son and Holy Ghost in a way that is impossible for us to fully comprehend.
Just accept it. His power and ability far surpasses our puny finite minds.
So someone will say it is impossible for God, a single being, to become his own son in an earthly body with limitations and weaknesses of mankind all the while inhabiting the same flesh and blood body that we have. And at the same time this same God inhabits eternity and monitors what is going on with his Son on the earth.

God's hand that he extended to mankind in the form of the Only Begotten was God his very self.
When we extrend our hand out to help, we cannot do it in the way God did by having his hand be in the form of a man on our level, the Son of God.

[David Taylor]

Then He wasn't really from everlasting then, was he?
So was Jesus created?

Three persons in one God is often explained to make an unscriptural separation between the three like polytheism, and no wonder, it came from the catholic church.

Before Abraham was He was even though He had not yet been begotten.
This should be accepted, not desecrated by a cheap trinity explanation that turns Christianity polytheistic.

The catholic church did not originate the Trinity teaching.

(internal (http://bibleforums.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1800585&postcount=25) Biblcal evidence, and external (http://bibleforums.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1802183&postcount=29) historical writings) pre-Nicea

[Iliana]

Now then, let's look at that passage in question:
Mat 24:36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=24&v=1&t=KJV#comm/36) But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

.....

So if they are one, (Equal in deity & knowledge) Jesus "The Son of God" definitely knew (and knows) that day & hour.

He never actually says HE doesn't know..... He says "no MAN; and no angels of Heaven..."


But:

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mat%2024:36&version=31#fen-NIV-23991a)] but only the Father.Footnotes:


Matthew 24:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mat%2024:36&version=31#en-NIV-23991) Some manuscripts do not have nor the Son.


Now, the footnote :) So why some manuscripts have it and others don't?(this is from the NIV on Biblegateway btw)

[Butch5]

Jesus is FULLY God. We both agree there.
Now then, let's look at that passage in question:
Mat 24:36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=24&v=1&t=KJV#comm/36) But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

What else do we know about Jesus' deity?

Jhn 10:30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=10&v=30&t=KJV#comm/30) I and [my] Father are one.

So if they are one, (Equal in deity & knowledge) Jesus "The Son of God" definitely knew (and knows) that day & hour.

He never actually says HE doesn't know..... He says "no MAN; and no angels of Heaven..."

Just as he never comes out & blatantly says, "I AM GOD", he never says, HE doesn't know the day or the hour.

But because of Jesus' statements & miracles & everything else about him, we DO KNOW he IS God.
GOD knows that time, so Jesus ALSO knew (and knows) the time.
;)


Hi Markdrums,

Even if we use the verse without, nor the Son, He says not the angels, but my father only.

Jesus explicitly says the Father only. Now while Jesus is God (deity or divine), He "is not" the Father. Consider this, Jesus died on the cross and was raised form the dead by the Father. Can God the Father die??? The Father is the source of eternal life. If the Father died then there would be not more eternal life.


1 Timothy 6:13-16 ( KJV ) 13I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

The Father alone has immortality. So, Jesus could die and be raised to life eternal, but if the Father died then there would be no one to raise Him. So this is another way that the Father and Son differ, also one reason that Jesus came to redeem us instead of the Father. Jesus said "the Father is greater than I." So, in the order of things, The Father is greater than the Son. However don't misunderstand what I am saying, this in no way means that Jesus is less divine than the Father. Regarding nature or divinity, they are equal.

[ƒσяєяυииєя]

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; John 5:26


Take care

[Butch5]

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; John 5:26


Take care

Yes, the Son has life because the Father has life.

[liefm]

Athansian Creed

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit uncreate.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three untreated nor three incomprehensible, but one untreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. 28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

[liefm]

Also this website may be helpful: http://www.carm.org/doctrine.htm
Look under Trinity.