Youth Paster Drinks Beer

[endtimes09]

On Sunday, I'm suppose to join a new church. My family and the youth pastor of the church went out to lunch and he ordered beer. Should my family and I still join the church? :note:

[RoadWarrior]

On Sunday, I'm suppose to join a new church. My family and the youth pastor of the church went out to lunch and he ordered beer. Should my family and I still join the church? :note:

I think I'd spend some more time evaluating the church and its leadership before joining. If you have children, teens, who might be influenced by this man, you could be headed for trouble.

[andrew_no_one]

On Sunday, I'm suppose to join a new church. My family and the youth pastor of the church went out to lunch and he ordered beer. Should my family and I still join the church? :note:

While drinking a beer is often a topic of discussion on this forum, and whether or not it is okay or wrong, it is possile that the youth pastor should be more sensitve to what he does in front of impressionable children. His role of authority should be used more to set a good example than anything else. While he may not be a raging drunk, I could see a child believing that it's okay to drink or do so in excess because "my youth pastor does it".

[HisLeast]

The youth pastor did no wrong in ordering a beer. If your family disqualifies the church at all, I hope it would be for reasons more serious and pressing than this.

[Rufus_1611]

On Sunday, I'm suppose to join a new church. My family and the youth pastor of the church went out to lunch and he ordered beer. Should my family and I still join the church? :note: What did he say when you called him out on it?

[Godslittleangel]

While it is not wrong to drink (though it is to get drunk), I dont' think a pastor should be doing it in front of anyone, esepcially youth. This should be done in his own home and wiht his friends who know his stand on it. Because there could be those who watch him and who are influenced by him and get the wrong impression, not realizing he donest get drunk and maybe only has 1 drink but instead, get htat he drinks and it is ok to drink and drink excessively. WE are not to put stumbling blocks in other's paths. We are not to use our freedom to cause someone else weaker to stumbe We are just as guitly for putting a stumblin blcok in their path as they are for falling. So I think that christians need to be carful in who they drink in front of, and pastors really rally need to be careful too since htey do influence people, they aer looked up to and we Christians need to look out fo rthe benefit of others, nto ourselves. so I don't htink the pastor was right in my opinion in drinking in front of you like that if yourkids were there. that was a bad choice to make. If you feel comfortable, talk to him aout it, dont like chew him out or sound disgusted but just mention that his choice of drinking in front of his youth group or those younger, may send mixed messages and have misunderstandings. Or just see what he says, maybe he realized whathappened afterwards and it ws a bad choice then. But i"d pray about what to do first though.

[RoadWarrior]

These two scriptures seem to go together in connection with this particular subject.

Jas 3:1
3 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
NKJV


Mk 9:42-43
42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
NKJV

[HisLeast]

Would any of you had the same advice had the youth pastor been seen eating candy?

[Rufus_1611]

Would any of you had the same advice had the youth pastor been seen eating candy? Candy eaters may inherit the kingdom of God...drunkards don't.

[RANGER65]

What he does away from kids is what he does period. The bible in 1 Timothy says a Bishop (Pastor) shall not be given to wine. That is the qualification. If he wants to drink he needs to step down from a Pastor's position. I know because I am One and I do not drink a beer or a glass of wine because the bible says I can't and I fear God. If he doesn't fear God he shouldn't be a Pastor. Beware how liberal you let your spiritual leaders become. The very fact that you have had to ask this is proof in itself that is is a stumbling block.:B

[RANGER65]

Candy eaters may inherit the kingdom of God...drunkards don't.

Stick with me Rufus we are deep behind the liberal lines here.:rofl::bounce::D;):giveup:

[RANGER65]

[quote=Godslittleangel;1893789]While it is not wrong to drink (though it is to get drunk), I dont' think a pastor should be doing it in front of anyone, esepcially youth. This should be done in his own home and wiht his friends who know his stand on it.

That is not scriptural. A Pastor is not allowed to drink PERIOD not anywhere at anytime. A Deacon can't be given to "MUCH WINE" a deacon can drink a beer or a glass of wine.

I am sure there is room for another Deacon at the Church but he does not qualify to be God's Shepherd of that Flock. We are not debating drinking we are reading the biblical qualifications for a pastor. If he is not willing to follow the bible for his own life, why would I want him to teach my children? He needs someone to go to him in meekness who is spiritual and restore him or except his resignation. This is a serious issue. Unless your Southern baptist. Then it is a non-issue.:lol:

[ServantofTruth]

Sorry i can't see your verse. I'm assuming you mean 1 Timothy chapter 3: verse 3. I've looked in 3 of my bibles - Jerusalem, CEV and the King James and i can't find a ban on drinking alcohol in any of them.

Those who know me, know i enter these alcohol debates as a non drinker of 10 years, wishing there were scriptures to back a total ban on alcohol. But there aren't and the Word of God comes way before my flawed human thinking.

What it actually says - is not be a heavy drinker, or be sober. On Slug1's new contraversial issues topic, we are discussion a level of alcohol that is below being drunk. I have suggested 1 drink.

If this man wants the odd drink, good for him. (yes i did say that!) I think he was unwise doing it with children around, before he knew how everyone felt. We are to put others first, even if what we do is not wrong.

Like other people have said, give the guy a chance. Look to see where his heart and mind are. If you feel bad, tell him your feelings, and give him a chance to act differently when around you.

But don't tell him that it is wrong for a church leader to drink, because he may ask you to look at scripture with him and you'll see he's right. SofTy. (we need a drunk smily - anyone good with finding and posting that sort of thing?)

[CoffeeCat]

Would any of you had the same advice had the youth pastor been seen eating candy?

Adults need to set good examples for children. Although his ordering a beer wasn't inherently wrong, it would be wrong to have a very young someone mistakenly stumbling just because because the youth pastor felt like having a cold beer. When adults see other adults drink, that doesn't necessarily cause them to want to. Children, on the other hand, are different -- they're especially vulnerable to advertisement, the example of others, and to the specific example adults set for them..... and if the person who will be teaching them about God is the one setting a fuzzy example, then that's something a pastor should be aware of -- that what he does will be held to a higher standard.

Consider this. Would we have a problem with a teacher drinking a beer in front of his or her students? Of course, especially if the students were underage. A teacher is in a position of authority, and needs to set a responsible example. Why, then, should we hold a youth pastor to any less of a standard when he's in front of the kids that might be going to his church?

I'm also not so sure the candy example works here.... :) -- for instance.... getting behind the wheel of a car with candy in you is quite different from getting behind the wheel with beer in you. One affects your functioning.... the other, not so much. Beer can generally impair you, whereas candy doesn't generally impair anyone unless they have a sugar allergy or diabetes.

(For that matter, if I were a youth pastor eating lunch in front of a child who I knew might be interested in candy although he was diabetic, I sure wouldn't be gulping down anything sugary with my meal in front of him.)

[Dragonfighter1]

I think I'd spend some more time evaluating the church and its leadership before joining. If you have children, teens, who might be influenced by this man, you could be headed for trouble.
Amen to that. I am all for pastors being able to drink but not infront of the kids and certainly nit until he knows if he is a stumbling block

[RoadWarrior]

Amen to that. I am all for pastors being able to drink but not infront of the kids and certainly nit until he knows if he is a stumbling block

I am really curious why it is so important for pastors to be "able to drink." What someone does in the privacy of their own home is their own business. But if it affects their walk with the Lord and the leadershp example, it becomes much more important to others. I will never tell you that you should or should not drink, that is your business. But if I am choosing a church, I'd rather choose a pastor that drinks coffee, not liquor.

God holds church leaders to a higher standard, and I look for that higher standard in those I follow.

Children are very vulnerable. Others have already said this. I agree. We have to do everything in our power to protect our precious little ones. They do not have the ability to discern, and they just follow the examples that are set before them.

You can tell a child "don't do ..." and they are quick to point to mother and say "she did it!"

Children learn not as much by listening as they do by watching.

[RANGER65]

The qualifications in 1Timothy 3:3 for a pastor states in the KJV "not given to wine" if you will look at the next level of responsibility in the church "Deacon" you will find this restriction on drinking "not given to MUCH wine". Pretty clear but if you want we can go a little further. In the Bishop qualifications referring to money the scripture says "not greedy of filthy lucre. Do you think that statement means a little is ok? It would make no sense to say "Not given to filthy lucre" But what would this mean using the same sentence structure? A little filthy lucre is ok? No. It means exactly what the first one means about drinking. None, zero, squat. Proper Hermaneutics.

[Whispering Grace]

I think I'd run as fast as I could in the opposite direction of that "youth pastor" and any church that would endorse him.

[NHL Fever]

I agree, there is no specific and exclusive provision against drinking in the bible, it only says don't be drunk. However there are more important things to consider here. As mentioned, if its a stumbling block for someone, just don't do it around them. If it might be a stumbling block for someone, don't do it, and don't do it around those who legally cannot.

The other issue is that if somebody has a real issue with giving up drinking for whatever reason related to other people - that is an idol for them. If the right to alcohol is so important that you would enter a conflict over it, you have a greater spiritual issue to deal with. Alcohol should mean absolutely nothing to you compared to being 'all things to all people' for the sake of the gospel, and accommodating the basic requests or needs of others.

For example I usually have beer around to have with meals, but my wife says when we have kids there will be none in the house. If I seriously can't give up a beer with supper for the sake of the person I love, then I'm putting my petty preferences above my marriage and will only create unhappiness for myself. If a number of people approach the youth pastor about it, and he was defensive of his right to maintain an utterly inconsequential beverage preference, chances are he will be self-prioritizing in other ways as well.

[Scruffy Kid]

John the baptist came drinking no wine, and you said he's possessed. The son of man came eating and drinking and you said "a drunkard and glutton." But wisdom is justified by all her children.
It seems to me that there are two sides to this question. I'm not taking a definite position, just trying to see the thing as a whole. The question, as I understand it, is about the properness of a minister drinking, but not to excess, and a youth minister in particular.

"Strict" boundaries approach

In any particular case, many different factors might enter in. For instance, in a church which is centered in a neighborhood where drunkenness is a big problem the church leaders might think it wise to have a policy of total abstinence (from alcoholic beveridges). Thus Bethel college, in Minnesota, when I last spoke with folks there, still maintains a "no drinking" policy that applies to faculty and staff as well as students, although it is reconsidering the policy. On the reconsider side of the ledger are several factors including that there is no scriptural requirement; on the keep things as they are side one weighty item is that the college is in a town where widespread drunkenness is a problem. Thus a clear-cut policy -- "no alcohol" (for staff and faculty as well as students -- can help outsiders see the anti-drunkenness (sobriety) witness better than a policy which is more complex.

Similar considerations are advanced as regards strictly keeping "no drinking" policies for students at Christian colleges where, in fact, the faculty are allowed to drink, and do. Thus I knew a kid at Wheaton whose girlfriend went to another school. When he went to visit her on weekends (NOT staying with her overnight, I assure you!) he said that to him it seemed that the whole weekend social scene at the (very good) college she attended centered around alcohol. Again, by having a ban on student drinking that is clear cut, because absolute, Wheaton and similar institutions both bear witness directly to a community whose drinking is out of control, and also establish a counter-culture: getting people now into, and getting them habituated to, patterns of life where a fun and lively social life need not revolve around alcohol.

Something like this, one might surmise, was what motivated Daniel and his three friends to abstain from wine and meat among the elite youth being trained in the court of Nebuchednezzar. It was not that wine, or the meats, were (so far as we know) religiously taboo; it seems more plausible that this was part of an attempt by Daniel and friends to clearly define for themselves a way of life (lifestyle) which set very clear boundaries amidst a dissolute pagan culture, and in partcular what very likely was a culture in which youth dissoluteness was part of the bonding rituals and strategies which was part of the training of a corps of elite youth for service in the empire.

NHL helpfully draws some of these strands of argument when he reminds us If it might be a stumbling block for someone, don't do it

The approach of not "building a fence around the law"

On the other hand, I have friends, strong Christians, faculty, who made clear that they could not accept a position at a school that required them never to drink alcoholic beveredges. Why? As RoadWarrior helpfully poses the matter to us: I am really curious why it is so important for pastors to be "able to drink." I know exactly what motivated this couple, whom I know very well. This man and woman were strong Christians, coming from non-Christian families where moderate enjoyment of the occasional glass of good wine was the usual and expected family practice. My friends knew from plenty of experience that their families has wierd understandings, or rather mis-understandings, of what Christianity was about: they perceived Christians as legalists hung up on a bunch of petty rules, fussy about them, Christians they had known (their relatives observed) had plenty of faults and sins but rather than living upright and humble lives, those Christians were quarrelsome self-righteous people who prided themselves on petty legalisms (as "you shouldn't even have one glass of wine", etc.).

For my friends, bearing witness to their relatives, so that they too might come to know Christ and give their lives to Him, was a thing of paramount importance. In their situation, to adhere to, and have to report that the Christian institution they worked for required, a strict ban on drinking, which would mess up perceived fellowship and usual behavior in family gatherings would be to strongly reinforce their relatives' view -- incorrect, in the widest sense, but based on eperience -- that Christians were petty legalists, and worse would tend to reinforce their relatives completely wrong perception of what Christianity was about. My friends desperately wanted their families to understand the gospel, the grace of Christ, Jesus' blood shed for us, God as our father, and start to give more attention to the Bible. But the message received by these non-gospel-oriented relatives -- if my friends had to suddenly become teetotalers if they went to work for a particular Christian organization -- would be one that viewed Christianity as mainly about purity regulations which could not even find Scriptural support, and make it harder for them to come at Christianity the right way round, seeing the greatness of God, and of Christ in coming to redeem us. Also, their families or origin, knowing that up to this time Gary and Elizabeth had not be teetotalers, would see this as a kind of hypocracy. "I will not let meat or drink" or anything deflect me from the goal of winning people to Christ, Paul tells us. He is a "greek to the greeks, a jew to the jews" to win any to Christ.

Paul found requiring non-binding provisions of (Biblical) ceremonial law kept the gentiles away from Christ, so he was ademant about not making folk think that keeping kosher or being cut was a requirement for Christian guys. Let's carry the argument further. Suppose the youth pastor is married, and kids ask him questions about what sex is like. Is he supposed to be all embarrassed or shy about it, or pretend it isn't attractive to him, so as not to lead them on to experiment before marraige. Or will it be better to tell them that it's great, but that he's super glad he, and his wife, weighted til marriage. The frank, unabashed, strict, biblical, but without-unnecessary-rules, approach may work far, far better -- both with kids who already are seeking Christ or walking with Him, and with kids who are just thinking about Christ for the first time.

So, building a fence around the law, adding requirements the Scriptures do not, may also be a stumbling block to many!


Back to the youth pastor.

So there seem to be two sides to this question, generally.

The case of the youth pastor is ambiguous. I see reasons which might be important for his not drinking; but also can see a strategy of being open about moderate, legal use of alcohol could open doors and make his ministry to youth more effective.

Generally, youth hate hypocracy (or what they perceive as such) and hate petty legalism. It's not like kids are going to be unaware that in our society many strong Christians drink. It's not like yessiree the youth pastor is, for the first time, exposing them to the corrupting sight of a respected older-peer or young-leader type drinking alcohol. Kids nowadays are considering sexual relations, drinking, drugs, and other very destructive behaviors at increasingly early ages. In some ways, a pattern of life in which the youth pastor is able to talk honesty about appropropriate and inappropriate contexts for sex, and alcohol -- and about obeying the rules when one in those stages of life when they are forbidden -- may look to many young people a much franker, more reasonable, more honest, and (as they look at the Scriptures) more scriptural approach than always insisting on non-drinking as a first principle. Further, it avoids the danger (it is considerable) of creating an impression of the gospel centered not in the basics (our sinfulness, God's mercy, Christ's sacrifice, living according to His commands and in ways that embody His love) but in minor or irrelevent cultural details ("teetotalism")

I'm not taking a position. What is right will be heavily dependent on circumstances. But there certainly are contexts I've known where the kind of approach by a youth minister -- an approach that surfaces in his having a beer with lunch without a qualm -- would be a much more effective way (compared to a "no dancing, no drinking" kind of lifestyle) to open kids' minds to Christ, keep them in Christ, and lead them into the path of serious Christian commitment and witnessing.

[cnw]

interesting. I think a first casual luncheon with a youth pastor of a church you are deciding on should cause you to question what else he is into if he is bold enough to order a drink not knowing you. That is usually a social thing with friends. I think that it is scarry when we are so calous to others lifestyles that we have no reguard to their feelings or religious convictions.
So were you witnessing to him? lol.

[karenoka27]

I don't know whether or not my children's youth leaders ever had a beer or a glass of wine. If they did, that is between them and the Lord. However, I am sooooo thankful that they did not give my children the false impression that it would be ok for them to start to drinking.

I would prayerfully consider whether to join the church if your children are going to be in his youth group.

[JesusMySavior]

This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. (1 Timothy 3:1-7)


the first time I read this particular passage I was in a prayer room quietly studying God's Word. It literally blew the hinges off my mind. WHAT a scripture.

I think it applies here too. Especially in front of kids. And what kind of example is that setting for these newcomers?

The best case scenario is that this pastor is somewhat unlearned with scriptures concerning the body and made an honest mistake. But even then his conscience should have corrected him.

I speak as a man here, who is not perfect but God forgive me and help me if I'm judging this man I don't know unfairly.

[mrsparks]

Candy eaters may inherit the kingdom of God...drunkards don't.
Just b/c he had a beer doesn't make him a drunkard. However, I would be concerned about the youth in the congregation seeing him drink it & thinking that getting drunk is ok. Children may not be able to make the distinction. But then again, apparently many adults can't make that distinction.

[SFASH]

I had to read the briefly written OP several times, but can say with certainty that I would not be willing to join this church until I was certain that this matter was covered.

If it were my children involved, this fellow would in no wise be their youth pastor. The fact that he drank a beer with the family troubles me even more.

Regardless of one's belief in the lawfulness of his drinking a beer, I would be very concerned about his take on the seriousness of his ministry and his public testimony... and I would want to know what the eldership of that church thinks about it and what they plan to do about it.

As many have stated, I don't understand this tremendous need for God's people, particularly those in Ministry, to drink alcohol, publicly or privately.

I know the difference between legalism and liberty and have experienced the ravages of alcohol as a child and as an adult in ways that would have even seasoned brethren on these boards weeping. (My little brother, Hal just passed away six months ago. He basically drank himself to death). I would not condemn a believer for having a glass of wine with his family at a dinner gathering.

But if someone is to pastor my children he will have no need for alcohol.

And if any church were to throw my concerns back at me with a scholarly revue of the legality of alcohol, I would simply find another church (but none too quietly)

Alcohol is dangerous. "At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder." Pro 23:32

[Rufus_1611]

Just b/c he had a beer doesn't make him a drunkard. However, I would be concerned about the youth in the congregation seeing him drink it & thinking that getting drunk is ok. Children may not be able to make the distinction. But then again, apparently many adults can't make that distinction. How many would he have had to have to make him a drunkard?

[livingwaters]

I am really curious why it is so important for pastors to be "able to drink." What someone does in the privacy of their own home is their own business. But if it affects their walk with the Lord and the leadershp example, it becomes much more important to others. I will never tell you that you should or should not drink, that is your business. But if I am choosing a church, I'd rather choose a pastor that drinks coffee, not liquor.

God holds church leaders to a higher standard, and I look for that higher standard in those I follow.

Children are very vulnerable. Others have already said this. I agree. We have to do everything in our power to protect our precious little ones. They do not have the ability to discern, and they just follow the examples that are set before them.

You can tell a child "don't do ..." and they are quick to point to mother and say "she did it!"

Children learn not as much by listening as they do by watching.

I think that about says it!!!!!!!!! Amen!!! If Christians, serving the Lord Jesus Christ, cannot do without a "snort," what kind of example, (and I think that's what the Word says we should be--examples), are we to the lost??? They will say, look at them, they're supposed to be Christians. They do the same stuff we heathens do....ha,ha,ha??:B:B:B I jus can't see this as right, no matter how you sugar-coat it...that's my story and I'm sticking to it!!!:saint::saint:

[Biastai]

Amen to that. I am all for pastors being able to drink but not infront of the kids and certainly nit until he knows if he is a stumbling block

I believe you hit the nail on the head. The apostle Paul spoke against those of the Corinthian church who ate meat that may've been sacrificed to idols. Why did he do so? Because it could be a stumbling block and detrimental to the unity of the faith within that body. For the record, Paul actually agreed that eating the meat was okay. That wasn't his concern. These "enlightened" believers caused difficulties for people who weren't emotionally reconciled with this newer teaching and caused struggles in their faith. The real question to be asked then shifts from "May he order a beer or not?" to "Might this cause another believer to struggle?" Resisting the want to order a beer is definitely a small cost to incur for not risking this type of negative effect. "Everything is permissible," but not everything is good.

[andrew_no_one]

In my previous post, I was not saying that drinking is wrong for the youth pastor, however, drinking is very wrong for the children at this point (not to mention illegal). In a world where these kids are alwas tempted by their friends and people at school, it could never hurt to have one more positive influence. Youth Pastors seem like they often have the role of "the cool guy" at church. Usually, they are younger than the childrens fathers so they can identify with them on an age basis a bit more. The kids look up to the youth pastor, and since he is in a position of leadership in the church, they will automatically assume that anything he is doing is right. Since drinking alcohol is definatly wrong for a fifteen year old, their spiritial teachers would probably be more effective if they were not seen doing this, since it would automatically put the question in the kids' minds (it even put the question in the father's mind!). How about we agree that this issue is questionable, since it has been called in to question numberous times in this thread. No matter if we think drinking is right or wrong, wouldn't it be better to just lean on the side of caution if only to protect the kids from what could be a potential stumbling block?

[Scruffy Kid]

This is a faithful saying ... . (1 Timothy 3:1-7)

The first time I read this particular passage I was in a prayer room quietly studying God's Word. It literally blew the hinges off my mind. WHAT a scripture. ... Yes indeed! It's a great passage.
The passage is in this context, though:

This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. (1 Timothy 3:1-7) ... Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. 1 Timothy 5:23

Paul's suggesting Timothy change his habits here for a particular reason. But evidently he's not of the view that moderate use of wine is, in itself, a problem. Paul doesn't, for instance, specifically counsel Timothy, as pastor and overseer of the church, to take wine medicinally, in private, or to make sure that no one sees him with a glass.

The case of the youth pastor is different, in many ways: first visit with strangers, pastor of youth specifically, and so on. I'm not seeking to draw from the context of I Tim. some sort of specific position about the OP's question. What the YP did was something I'd never do, for instance, out of concern for others feelings, and also because making a good impression on others is (probably, too) important to me. If I were going to be a YP I'd have to think through the issues involved, in the particular context carefully: I can well imagine taking such a job and becoming a teetotaler, for strategic reasons, that is, for the sake of the flock and the gospel. Certainly in the context of congregations or churches -- especially in poorer areas overseas -- where non-drinking is the (often strongly-held) norm I wouldn't consider drinking, out of concern for the flock, respect for the church, and so on.

Strictness can be good. ...

[MrAnteater]

This seems like a very trivial matter and shouldn't be used to disqualify the entire church. Drinking a beer is not a sin.

So many Christians are on their high horse and need to get off and walk on the ground once in a while to get back to reality. It's situations like this that start rumors and gossip in the church which is far more damaging, and sinful.

It's more important to investigate the church's statement of faith and get down to the nitty gritty of their belief system.

I would much rather attend a church where a pastor drank a beer or smoked a cigarette and taught sound Christian doctrine than a liberal church that teaches harasy but has squeeky clean looking pastoral staff.

[RoadWarrior]

This seems like a very trivial matter and shouldn't be used to disqualify the entire church. Drinking a beer is not a sin.

So many Christians are on their high horse and need to get off and walk on the ground once in a while to get back to reality. It's situations like this that start rumors and gossip in the church which is far more damaging, and sinful.

It's more important to investigate the church's statement of faith and get down to the nitty gritty of their belief system.

I would much rather attend a church where a pastor drank a beer or smoked a cigarette and taught sound Christian doctrine than a liberal church that teaches harasy but has squeeky clean looking pastoral staff.

I think you have missed the point.

[hdt]

Just b/c he had a beer doesn't make him a drunkard. However, I would be concerned about the youth in the congregation seeing him drink it & thinking that getting drunk is ok. Children may not be able to make the distinction. But then again, apparently many adults can't make that distinction.

I don't know to many adults that don't realize getting drunk isn't the best decision in the world - even the ones that get bombed out of their skull!

I do think it was a poor choice to order a beer with a family you barely knew from the church. There are alot of people that get offended by beer or other drinks.

I would hope the youth pastor doesn't drink beer during youth activities! If he does that - the man is asking for trouble!

On the other hand if he is out with his wife, and is seen drinking a beer on his social time...and people want to say that is telling teens its okay to get drunk? :hmm: If the teens get caught and seriously think that is a good excuse, and their kids don't know any better - I have to wonder about the parents. Sorry. Having a beer with your wife during dinner, and getting bombed with your teen friends on the weekend is two completely different issues. If people want to shift the blame to the pastor I guess they can, but it sure doesn't make any sense to me. My kids would be held responsible for their actions, because they know better! I don't care if they saw the pope getting stoned out of his gord! If they tried that excuse with me I would tell them NICE TRY! :lol:;)

[JesusMySavior]

This seems like a very trivial matter and shouldn't be used to disqualify the entire church. Drinking a beer is not a sin.

So many Christians are on their high horse and need to get off and walk on the ground once in a while to get back to reality. It's situations like this that start rumors and gossip in the church which is far more damaging, and sinful.

It's more important to investigate the church's statement of faith and get down to the nitty gritty of their belief system.

I would much rather attend a church where a pastor drank a beer or smoked a cigarette and taught sound Christian doctrine than a liberal church that teaches harasy but has squeeky clean looking pastoral staff.


The deal is not whether having a beer is okay; the problem lies in his position. he is representing an entire body of believers and furthermore having lunch with some potential "members" (i hate that term but bear with me). not only that, but he is doing this in front of the kids. if I were the parents i would be upset to say the least, let alone join the church.

what this man has done is entirely wrong - not because wheat and ale are the ingredients to sin, but because of his position and the circumstances regarding it.

note that I am an ex-partier and drug user so I'm not some squeaky clean part of a pastoral staff. If I had kids and a youth pastor was having a brew in front of them I would be pretty peeved.

James 1:27 says this : "Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world."

"unspotted" is a pretty thick term and leaves no room for leaks.


just some food for thought. Blessings

[ServantofTruth]

The qualifications in 1Timothy 3:3 for a pastor states in the KJV "not given to wine" if you will look at the next level of responsibility in the church "Deacon" you will find this restriction on drinking "not given to MUCH wine". Pretty clear but if you want we can go a little further. In the Bishop qualifications referring to money the scripture says "not greedy of filthy lucre. Do you think that statement means a little is ok? It would make no sense to say "Not given to filthy lucre" But what would this mean using the same sentence structure? A little filthy lucre is ok? No. It means exactly what the first one means about drinking. None, zero, squat. Proper Hermaneutics.

The problem i see with this, is the translators of bibles, for example my Jerusalem bible go back as far as they can to multiple manuscripts, in multiple languages - that predate the King James by centuries.

My Jerusalem bible gives the meaning, as i have already said as staying sober/ not drinking to excess. So does my CEV.

The problem comes when we consider one translation perfect. Groups of scholars from multiple denominations work on various bible translations to avoid bias. If we personally refer to multiple bibles and compare translations we get the best considered opinion on any particular verse.

On your verse, i have 3 out of 4 that clearly state not drinking to excess, and the 4th that you read one way and i took to mean the other way. We don't have any clear translation yet that supports your stated position on this verse.

Argueing gains us nothing. Perhaps you could check other translations and get back to me? I can't check them all.

Roadwarrior - i too would much prefer the authority of any church i attend to be non drinkers, especially around the church and children. :) SofTy.

[Biastai]

This seems like a very trivial matter and shouldn't be used to disqualify the entire church. Drinking a beer is not a sin.

So many Christians are on their high horse and need to get off and walk on the ground once in a while to get back to reality. It's situations like this that start rumors and gossip in the church which is far more damaging, and sinful.

It's more important to investigate the church's statement of faith and get down to the nitty gritty of their belief system.

I would much rather attend a church where a pastor drank a beer or smoked a cigarette and taught sound Christian doctrine than a liberal church that teaches harasy but has squeeky clean looking pastoral staff.

I think that's what is actually being discussed here: whether or not it is against sound Christian doctrine for him to order a beer while dining with a family he just met.

"Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall."
Romans 14:13-21

Personally, I don't care if he drinks a beer or a shot of Jack Daniels in front of me. Its how it may affect the family with whom he's dining (that he just met). I can't simply think only about my own view alone. We may be able to establish that nothing in itself is impure including alcohol, but whether his action is conducive to mutual edification cannot be assumed simply because alcohol is ok. If your concerns are truly about sound Christian doctrine, then this is also your concern. Christian doctrine includes this principle.

[VerticalReality]

For some reason when I read this thread I get a mental picture of a man ordering a beer and about 50 people standing around him curling up their lip and looking at him in disgust . . .

My personal opinion . . .

If I were this man's pastor I would advise him to consider wisely what actions he is taking in front of other people. Not because him ordering a beer is wrong . . . but because 1) you have a lot of people with defiled religious mindsets that can't help but judge someone's actions, not because those actions are sinful according to the Word, but simply because they disapprove, and 2) you have folks who struggle with this and find it difficult to have self-control when it comes to alcohol.

Is it wrong to drink beer? No . . .

Is it sin? No . . .

Is it remotely even a tad wicked? Nope . . . not at all.

However, being that so many are offended by the thought of a man of God drinking alcohol it would be wise for this young man to do such things in his own time so he doesn't cause someone to take offense.

This man has liberty and freedom in Christ to partake of whatever food or drink he would like as long as it's not at the expense of others and he is not abusing it.

[RoadWarrior]

Thank you all, for your contributions to this discussion. I believe we have adequately answered the OP. Before we get too repetitive with our answers, I'll close this thread and we can move on to something else.