Christian Nation?

[FedererFan]

So since I can't reply on the other thread on this topic, I'm interested in what people think. It seems to be the common belief that the founding fathers were Christian and that the country was founded on Judeo-Christian values. This seems to be incorrect if you look at many quotes from them. While there are also quotes that seem to support that they were Christian or religious (mostly in speeches, public), does it not bother you that there are so many anti-Christian quotes (in their private letters) from these men? I'm not saying that they were not influenced by religion, but they themselves were not religious and recognized that religion would be dangerous to the new government. What opinions do people have on this issue?

James Madison

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

John Adams

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"

"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."

"Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years?"

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

Thomas Jefferson

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism, he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it."

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

"We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication ."

Benjamin Franklin

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."

Thomas Paine

"Take away from Genesis the belief that Moses was the author, on which only the strange belief that it is the word of God has stood, and there remains nothing of Genesis but an anonymous book of stories, fables, and traditionary or invented absurdities, or of downright lies."

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

[pekoe]

Hi FedererFan.
Trying to prove the framers weren't angled toward Christianity is like beating a dead horse. Without doubt, the laws of the nation and the state you reside in originally reflected the commandments God gave to Moses and the teachings of Jesus. The state I live in still has adultery on the books as a crime! Nice topic. Better check out where our roots came from.....the evidence of it is disappearing rapidly!

[DaniHansen]

*Mod hat on*

Please keep in mind that this isn't a debate forum, and so please let's keep discussion in line with the spirit of this forum, so this thread doesn't end up prematurely closed.

Thanks!

*Mod hat off*

[tango]

Moving this into Kicking Back since it's not a discussion about the Christian faith as such.

Anyone can answer anyone in here, just keep it friendly :)

[pekoe]

Sorry if my response sounded caustic in any way. I think when everything is taken into account, we can all be sure that most of the founders believed in the God of the Bible. And my advice to look at the evidence now was simply for the benefit of seeing the truth before it's distorted anymore than it already has been.

[Perpetua]

So since I can't reply on the other thread on this topic, I'm interested in what people think. It seems to be the common belief that the founding fathers were Christian and that the country was founded on Judeo-Christian values. This seems to be incorrect if you look at many quotes from them. While there are also quotes that seem to support that they were Christian or religious (mostly in speeches, public), does it not bother you that there are so many anti-Christian quotes (in their private letters) from these men? I'm not saying that they were not influenced by religion, but they themselves were not religious and recognized that religion would be dangerous to the new government. What opinions do people have on this issue?

Yes, you're right, this country's founding fathers were not Christians, certainly not in the proper, orthodox Protestant sense. They actually believed a type of "theistic rationalism" that elevated human reason, that man could find God in the many different religions, such as Native American Indians, Hindu, etc., and that truth was not exclusive to the Bible.

The "Christian Nation" is a recent invention, since the 1970s. Granted that the general population was Christian in its heritage, and often (some of) the founders would try to disguise their views or down-play them within mainstream culture, but their writings reveal their liberal, enlightenment-influenced ideas.

See this link, a site with many articles concerning the truth about the founding fathers.

http://americancreation.blogspot.com/

[Ciscokid]

Many of the founding fathers were religious but I don't think many of them resemble the Christians in America today.

The "Christian Nation" statement is very meaningless. It's like starting a basketball team where most of the players are muslims. What does that mean to the team years later when those players are gone? Does anyone still care if the "founding" players were Muslim? No...there is no impact.

[NotMyOwn]

The fact that our laws are based on the commandments of God does not make one a Christian nation. People have the law written on their hearts in the sense that God instilled a sense of right and wrong in the hearts of everyone. People know that you shouldn't murder or steal, even if you never read the Bible.

[Ciscokid]

I don't think our laws are much modeled after the 10 commandments. There is no law that says you can't envy your neighbors wife or possessions. There's no law that you have to keep the Sabbath, no law against having idols...you are allowed to commit adultery etc.

[NotMyOwn]

But our laws as a whole are based on the commandments, not actually to the letter.

Just think of a movie that is based on a certain event, but the movie director adds or subtracts from the actual story.

[Ciscokid]

The Bill of Rights contradict many of the commandments. It's pretty obvious the founding fathers weren't interested in using the Bible to guide our society.

[pekoe]

There's no law that you have to keep the Sabbath
Check out the blue laws (no longer in existence).
you are allowed to commit adultery etc.
Don't know about your state but in mine (NY) adultery is still on the books as a crime.

[Ciscokid]

Check out the blue laws (no longer in existence).

Don't know about your state but in mine (NY) adultery is still on the books as a crime.


There are a lot of crimes that are "on the books" that are ignored. There are websites devoted to laws that are absurd, ie http://www.loonylaws.com/.

I've never ever heard of anyone actually going to jail for adultery.

[pekoe]

There are a lot of crimes that are "on the books" that are ignored. There are websites devoted to laws that are absurd,...
Just pointing out that even though laws pertaining to resting on the Sabbath (or Sunday with respect to Americans) no longer exist it doesn't mean they never existed or because they aren't enforced (such as adultery) it doesn't mean they are absurd. If you were married and your spouse decided to jump into bed with someone other than you, you might be hurt by it. That we no longer honor God and each other are testimonies to how immoral we have become.

"I have lived sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, sir, in the sacred writings, that 'except the Lord build a house they labor in vain that build it.'"
Benjamin Franklin - Constitutional Convention, Philidelphia, 1787

[Ciscokid]

"I have lived sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, sir, in the sacred writings, that 'except the Lord build a house they labor in vain that build it.'"
Benjamin Franklin - Constitutional Convention, Philidelphia, 1787


Benjamin also wrote:

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...."

Would you consider someone who doubts the divinity of Christ a "Christian"? Thomas Jefferson made his own version of the gospels where he left out all the miracles and virgin birth etc becase he found those stories to be nonsense.

[pekoe]

Hi Cisco.
Yes, I think someone can be a Christian without believing that Jesus is God, even though I'm sure they will one day find out that He is! As far as I can tell, a Christian is one who believes Jesus paid for his/her sins and attempts to follow His teachings. I think we can agree that Ben falls into that category.
Why do you suppose Tom even bothered with the gospels if they didn't matter to him? For whatever reason, I think we can also agree that Tom wasn't an atheist.

[Ciscokid]

Hi Cisco.
Yes, I think someone can be a Christian without believing that Jesus is God, even though I'm sure they will one day find out that He is! As far as I can tell, a Christian is one who believes Jesus paid for his/her sins and attempts to follow His teachings. I think we can agree that Ben falls into that category.

I ran across a guy who was a "Christian" but didn't believe Jesus was God. He belief was not popular at all with his Christian peers. The popular response to this belief is, "If Jesus wasn't God, then why/how was he worthy of paying for all sins?"

I think it's a valid point. I don't know if Jefferson believed that Christ paid for his sins but based on what I've read I doubt he felt that way. I would actually put Jefferson in the Deist category because he only seemed to focus on the moral values that Christ taught...not the Bible as a whole.



Why do you suppose Tom even bothered with the gospels if they didn't matter to him? For whatever reason, I think we can also agree that Tom wasn't an atheist.


What mattered to TJ was the teachings of Christ he didn't focus on such things as "how to be saved" or "how to make God happy" etc. I agree I don't think TJ was an atheist, Paine was and he didn't have a lot of company.

I think the main difference between the Christians today and many of the founding fathers was the degree to which they held the Bible as the single source of God's word to mankind. Many of them seemed to criticize the old testament, some were vocal about their doubts regarding Christs divinity etc.

I guess I still don't understand what "this is a Christian nation" means. What impact does that declaration have?

[pekoe]

I ran across a guy who was a "Christian" but didn't believe Jesus was God. He belief was not popular at all with his Christian peers. The popular response to this belief is, "If Jesus wasn't God, then why/how was he worthy of paying for all sins?"

I think it's a valid point.
So do I, as God alone is unblemished.
I don't know if Jefferson believed that Christ paid for his sins but based on what I've read I doubt he felt that way. I would actually put Jefferson in the Deist category because he only seemed to focus on the moral values that Christ taught...not the Bible as a whole.
Well, I'm glad Jesus will decide who believed in Him and who didn't.

I think the main difference between the Christians today and many of the founding fathers was the degree to which they held the Bible as the single source of God's word to mankind. Many of them seemed to criticize the old testament, some were vocal about their doubts regarding Christs divinity etc.
I guess, but how could men with such intelligence not understand that Jesus affirmed Moses and the prophets?

I guess I still don't understand what "this is a Christian nation" means. What impact does that declaration have?
I think it means that at one time the vast majority of people living here were Christians. At one time, every university in the country was Christian oriented. The declaration only matters to those who love Jesus.

[The Mighty Sword]

This is why I believe we are a Christian Nation,

Alabama 1901, Preamble We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution..
Alaska 1956, Preamble We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land.
Arizona1911, Preamble We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...
Arkansas 1874, Preamble We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...
California1879, Preamble We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom...
Colorado 1876, Preamble We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe...
Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy.
Delaware 1897, Preamble through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences... Florida1885, Preamble We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, establish this Constitution...
Georgia 1777, Preamble We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...
Hawaii1959, Preamble We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance ... Establish this Constitution.
Idaho 1889, Preamble We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings.
Illinois 1870, Preamble We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil , political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.
Indiana 1851, Preamble We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to choose our form of government.
Iowa 1857, Preamble We, the People of the St ate of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings, establish this Constitution.
Kansas1859, Preamble We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges establish this Constitution.
Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth are grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties..
Louisiana 1921, Preamble We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy..
Maine 1820, Preamble We the People of Maine acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity. And imploring His aid and direction.
Maryland1776, Preamble We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty...
Massachusetts 1780, Preamble We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe In the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly imploring His direction
Michigan1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom, establish this Constitution.
Minnesota, 1857, Preamble We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings:
Mississippi 1890, Preamble We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.
Missouri 1845, Preamble We, the people of Missouri , with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness . Establish this Constitution...
Montana 1889, Preamble We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution..
Nebraska 1875, Preamble We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom. Establish this Constitution.
Nevada1864, Preamble We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, establish this Constitution...
New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec.V Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.
New Jersey 1844, Preamble We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.
New Mexico 1911, Preamble We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty...
New York 1846, Preamble We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.
North Carolina 1868, Preamble We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those... North Dakota 1889, Preamble We, the people of North Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...
Ohio1852, Preamble We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common.
Oklahoma1907, Preamble Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty, establish this
Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble We, the people of Pennsylvania , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance....
Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing...
South Carolina, 1778, Preamble We, the people of he State of South Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.
South Dakota 1889, Preamble We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties....
Tennessee1796, Art. XI...III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience...
Texas 1845, Preamble We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.
Utah 1896, Preamble Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution.
Vermont1777, Preamble whereas all government ought to enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man...
Virginia1776, Bill of Rights, XVI Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator can be directed only by Reason and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other
Washington 1889, Preamble We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution West Virginia 1872, Preamble Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God ...
Wisconsin1848, Preamble We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility...
Wyoming 1890, Preamble We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties, establish this Constitution...
After reviewing acknowledgments of God from all 50 state constitutions, one is faced with the truth GOD BLESS AMERICA

For me that about covers it.