Belief a CHOICE?

[rstrats]

A number of folks on these boards seem to say that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. Since I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, and since I would really like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person, I wonder if someone who thinks that way might be able to share how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to make your lack of belief instantaneously change to belief?

What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

[lbeaty1981]

In my case, it wasn't an instantaneous change. It actually occurred over several years. Various events in my life, the teachings of others, coupled with my own research gradually helped me to understand that there was more out there than what I originally thought. Even after I came to the conclusion that God existed, and that Jesus died for our sins, it took me several months to finally accept His sacrifice and allow God into my life. What can I say? I've always been a stubborn one...:lol:

[rstrats]

lbeaty1981,


re: “In my case, it wasn't an instantaneous change.”


It had to be. You can’t believe that something isn’t true AND at the same time believe that it is. There has to be an instant when the one state of mind is changed to the other. I’m trying to learn the technique for doing that.

[hopen-praying]

Just recently, I mean like this week, the LORD has been dealing with me in the area of love and compassion for others.

While He was convicting me to have compassion (in a certain instance) I kept saying "NO, (in my heart and my actions) that person is steeped in sin and they say they are christian...I'm not suppose to have anything to do with that person, the bible says..." and all kinds of justifications. BUT, the Spirit of GOD would not let me rest. I was fit to be tied and full of strife within. In my pride, I was making a choice to not do something that I should have been doing.

So, I did what I normally do when there is no peace within, draw closer to the LORD, listen to bible studies and sermons (online and on the radio) and search the scriptures until....

1 John 4:7-21 helped me see somethings I was ignoring,
then James 1:22-27 sealed it in my heart,
and finally, from Numbers 20 on where Moses misrepresents GOD in his display of anger toward the people and the consequences for Moses for that, put the fear of GOD in me.

It's still a work in progress, but now I'm making a choice to have compassion which will allow me the opportunity to share the truths of God and His love. Someone, can't remember who said "People don't care what you know until they know that you care!"

[Walstib]

A number of folks on these boards seem to say that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. Since I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, and since I would really like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person, I wonder if someone who thinks that way might be able to share how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to make your lack of belief instantaneously change to belief?

What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

At some point people make conclusions about received information and forms their "beliefs". Sitting down with a list and choosing what you believe is not the way things go deep down into a person. I would say that after deciding on evidence and making conclusions a belief comes from this and is a result instead of an effort. I don't see it is a last moment instantaneous thing.

True faith is not blind faith. Some people may do this sort of thing where they instantaneously take something in to be true. I see this is more of a personal brainwashing if they are not making sure of the foundation of the concept first. This is a big thing that leads to false beliefs/teachings and people following cults. People who convince themselves they are part of something and fall away quickly rather than have no choice but to change there belief and live differently because of the evidence they know to be true.

One of the names of Jesus in the Chief Cornerstone. This in the context of a foundation. All beliefs that are going to be true are based on Him. The foundation laid first , blocks like... He died for our sin, He loves us, He was resurrected... if the belief does not fit on top of those blocks it does not belong.

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little(Isa 28:9-13 KJV)

To take your example about becoming a more compassionate person. To be able to believe that you can be. The foundation is needed first before you try fitting in that window, the wall is not even built yet. Personally for me it is like a progression... I believe that Jesus is Lord... Knowing He is Lord He is able to empower me to change... Without Jesus I cannot "be good"... I know that the Lord will answer prayer... If ask Him to help me be more compassionate He can do this... He does things in His time... I believe I can be a more compassionate person. I left out many steps there but I hope you get the meaning.

Coming to believe that Jesus is Lord is the same kind of way. I would think as you say to be seeking you have a bunch of evidence in you building. Things you are becoming convicted of that lead towards Him. Asking God to provide you some more evidence does not hurt. It took me a long time before I got to the point of asking Him but I can say things defiantly sped up from there. I never figured out how to make the "leap of faith" It was not long before I could not help but believe.

Joe

[rstrats]

Walstib,


re: “I don't see it is a last moment instantaneous thing.”


As I mentioned previously, it has to be. You can’t believe and not believe at the same time.


re: “It was not long before I could not help but believe.”


So where does the conscious CHOICE come in, insofar as the engendering of the belief itself is concerned? You’re saying that you had no choice; that you had to believe.

[Walstib]

lbeaty1981,
It had to be. You can’t believe that something isn’t true AND at the same time believe that it is. There has to be an instant when the one state of mind is changed to the other. I’m trying to learn the technique for doing that.

In this context I do agree with you, there is an instant is does change. I think it could be weeks sometimes before I consciously know a change has occurred in me. I would also say I don't see Jesus has called us to change ourselves as much as let ourselves be changed by Him. Both need to be involved really. If we could of our own effort change ourselves into "good people" there would not be a need for Jesus.



Joe

[rstrats]

Yodas_Prodigy ,



Under the topic: " Why is logical debate, considered an attack on faith?", you wrote: "God supplies the faith to believe. " So when you have been given the faith, how do you use it to take the next step to engender a belief? What do you do that allows you to say, "OK, at this moment I believe - am convinced without a doubt - that a supreme being does not exist, but I am going to use the faith that I have just been given to go ahead and consciously CHOOSE to believe, and --- poof --- I now believe - am convinced without a doubt - that one does exist?

[Walstib]

Walstib,
So where does the conscious CHOICE come in, insofar as the engendering of the belief itself is concerned? You’re saying that you had no choice; that you had to believe.

Right of the top I do believe in free choice in this. In the context of my explanation, a belief comes as a result of a number of other beliefs already held. The circular logic says "well what about those beliefs" I say it all started at conception and has been growing from then as well gather information and freely decide upon it.

The choice comes in when deciding if a bit of information is true or not. Making yourself chose something is just as off base as thinking God makes you chose something. I say it is a result and not an effort, there is effort in searching and weighing the evidence but not in causing a belief to exist.

So I am not saying I had no choice, more like there was no longer any other conclusion left. I do think that we need God to help us believe.

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.(Act 26:18 KJV)

There is a theme in scripture that reflects the opening of ones spiritual eyes so that they can see the truth. Without God doing this we are helpless to see it.

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Heb 12:2 KJV)

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Rom 12:3 KJV)

Faith is something given and measured out by the Lord. Again we can not come to Him on our own. The invitation is there for all but only some chose to show up for the party.

So I got a bit off track there.... The Lord and I together, through my choices to believe the truth and His will in my life, brought me to a point that I would have been seriously suppressing things to not believe that Jesus in Lord.

I hope that explains myself, always willing to try again.

Joe

[Realist1981]

Yodas_Prodigy ,



Under the topic: " Why is logical debate, considered an attack on faith?", you wrote: "God supplies the faith to believe. " So when you have been given the faith, how do you use it to take the next step to engender a belief? What do you do that allows you to say, "OK, at this moment I believe - am convinced without a doubt - that a supreme being does not exist, but I am going to use the faith that I have just been given to go ahead and consciously CHOOSE to believe, and --- poof --- I now believe - am convinced without a doubt - that one does exist?

The problem is that you interchange Faith and Belief as if they are one and the same.

Stay with me on this (alot of Christians miss this point also)

Somebody told 2 people that their house and their entire neighborhood would be destroyed in one day in a Tornado. Both guys said they believe what they have heard and they went about their business.

Guy A immediately rented out a UHaul truck, got everything out of his house, took his family and rented a room at a Hotel. He also went around his neighborhood and spread the news around. He tried to take as many people as possible with him.

Guy B did nothing but said I believe it, went about his normal business, and didnt really take it really seriously.

The next day the Tornado came and took both of their houses and the entire neighborhood with it killing Guy B and his family and the rest of the people who were still in that neighborhood.

Do you see what faith is? Faith is acting on your belief. Although Guy B said he believed he didnt change anything, he didnt heed the warning, he didnt do nothing except say he believed. Guy A dropped everything, made arrangements, and grabbed everybody he could with him. How can Guy B say he believed if he had no faith . If he really believed he would have faith

You still with me?

So faith isn't "A Hope and a Prayer" like many are trying to make it seem. Noah believed what God said and he acted on that faith and he built the arc.

Now, when a person accepts Christ and his teachings it is said (by him) and believed that the comforter (Holy Spirit) indwells each and every one of us believers and our bodies are that of the Holy Temple because he dwells there. And our old nature dies and a new nature is born (of a spiritual nature). That's the basics of what it means of being "Born again". God takes over our lives and lives through us. It's not an instantanious transformation. We stumble now and again (some more than others) but God transforms us little by little into his image everyday.

So you see that is why the statement our faith isn't ours is correct. Meaning I cant take credit for my good works because it is God's will not mine. I live for him. My works cant get me into heaven only my belief in him.

Does that make any sense? If not I hope someone can explain that better than I can

Peace!!

[Walstib]

So faith isn't "A Hope and a Prayer" like many are trying to make it seem. Noah believed what God said and he acted on that faith and he built the arc.

Agreement here.

Faith does not exist without belief but belief can exist without faith.

All the faithful believe but not all that believe are faithful.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (Jam 2:19 KJV)

They are not the same, also individual beliefs before and after salvation are not the same as the "big one"... Believe God. The one that leads to faith.

Joe

[rstrats]

Walstib,

re: "So I am not saying I had no choice, more like there was no longer any other conclusion left."


When you realized that there was no longer any other conclusion left, what was the state of your mind with regard to a new belief?

[rstrats]

Realist1981,

re: “The problem is that you interchange Faith and Belief as if they are one and the same. “

I reread my post #8 a couple of times and I don’t see where I’ve equated faith and belief. I was merely asking Yodas_Prodigy a question with regard to one of his posts. I wonder if you might point out where I equated the two.


re: “Faith is acting on your belief...If he really believed he would have faith.”


Maybe he just didn’t care. Maybe for some twisted reason he thought his family and the neighborhood would somehow be better off dead.


But let’s say that he would have cared and that he would have been able to do something about the coming destruction. Then like you said, he most likely didn’t actually believe that a tornado was imminent, or if he did, he didn’t believe that there was anything to worry about. But I’m kinda missing your point with regard to a person having the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.

[rstrats]

Walstib,


re: “Faith does not exist without belief but belief can exist without faith. “


How do you define “faith” as you are using it in this quote?

[moonglow]

A number of folks on these boards seem to say that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. Since I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, and since I would really like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person, I wonder if someone who thinks that way might be able to share how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to make your lack of belief instantaneously change to belief?

What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

I always thought this was the strangest argument I ever heard. If you are shown two plus two equals four...you add it up for yourself...see its a fact...then you..or at least most people believe it don't they? you know its a fact if you jump up you will come back down...you believe it to the point if you saw someone on their roof about to jump saying they could fly, you would tell them no you will fall and probably hurt yourself. Why say that? Cause you believe it...

I believe if the weather man says the high is only going to be in the 30's today its going to be cold out, and further I believe if I put on warmer clothes I won't get so cold...this is a belief.

People read and see things on TV and on and news and tend to believe it simply because its in print or they hear it on the news without totally checking the facts out...I know people who believe those rag magazine stories are real...lol. People CAN and DO choose to believe all sorts of things all the time...some for the good and some not so good.

I would bet you have all sorts of beliefs that came about for some reason or another right? It would be interesting to list the things you believe and why...

[rstrats]

moonglow,


re: “ I would bet you have all sorts of beliefs that came about for some reason or another right?”


That is correct. However, as I said, I did not obtain any of these beliefs by consciously CHOOSING to have them.


re: “People CAN and DO choose to believe all sorts of things all the time...”


And that is what I would like to learn. How do you consciously CHOOSE to do that - consciously CHOOSE to believe? What do you do that allows you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true? Perhaps you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

[Walstib]

Walstib,
re: "So I am not saying I had no choice, more like there was no longer any other conclusion left."

When you realized that there was no longer any other conclusion left, what was the state of your mind with regard to a new belief?

Thanks for the interesting question.

I am trying to pin down what you mean by state of mind. This conclusion that God was real changed my outlook on everything and I mean everything. From we are just worm food to there not being a leaf that blows down the street without God's knowledge and direction. I am still learning new things about my state of mind then when I look back at it.

There was an emotional aspect of it where I was full of wonder and joy that this was true. This aspect being the least important. There was a part that wanted to tell the whole world what had happened and sincerely hoped that all could come to the same conclusion. There was a hard to explain sense of knowing instead of being torn up about the question. This giving a peace that was way past emotion. In a way there was an amazement that I actually did now have a change in belief. Thoughts of what was next.

As I had been coming to this conclusion I was piece be piece understanding how guilty I was in His sight, how the things I was doing and the path I was on were not in line with ultimate truth. In that change there was a relief in the knowledge of forgiveness for these transgressions by Jesus. A freedom I had never known possible.

Importantly there was a change in the thoughts in my head. I had spent many years beating myself up and feeling worthless. Like I had been arguing with myself. I know now that considering the spiritual, there is like the voice of your spirit, the voice of your flesh, and attacks from the enemy that can all come as thoughts. At the moment I was saved, believed and exercised my faith, however exactly that could be defined, there was a new gentle voice. That of the Holy Spirit. Comforting and counseling, giving the right ammunition to defeat the lies of the flesh and the enemy. Changing the tone of that internal battle from that of constant defeat to constant victory. Then I know this would have sounded crazy to me before I started searching. Seeing this battle to begin with was one of the biggest things that got me thinking there just may be a spiritual side to things. Seeking the answer to why I had no control of thought lead me straight to God.

I hope I have answered what you asked, let me know if I missed your point.

Joe

[Ron The Hebrew]

In one form or another this question comes up.

I personally can never remember a time in all of my life where I did not believe that there was a G-d.

My belief has never changed.

The thing that has changed for me is a more real picture as to who I am compared to that G-d and who I am amongst men.

Some call it faith but for me it has been experience. The things I once thought were true about G-d proved themselves to be false which caused me to seek another truth about him. Yet other things I thought to be true about him have never wavered and are standing the test of time. Because of that I in fact have "no choice" but to continue to believe they are true, as I have no other reason to believe otherwise.

Some of those truths I have tested to great degrees to try to prove them false, but to no avail as the truth is what it is. Yet other truths I tested and crumbled to the ground, as they were false.

Yet there are other truths that I have not tested, as I fear they are actually false and I am too cowardly to approach them for fear of the change it may make in my life or even that it may go against my pride.

My entire life has gone as follows:

I wake up, test the spirit and learn throughout my day, learn according to the intellect driving my test, fall asleep, then repeat.

The key here is what is the intellect driving my test.

What intellect drives yours?

I hope this helps.

[Realist1981]

I dont understand the point of this. Are you saying nobody can choose to believe anything? That makes no logical sense to me. Can you explain your position as to why you think this way?

[My Joy]

I'm not sure that belief happens instantaneously as you have described (like flipping a switch- I was this way and now I believe something different). My belief has taken some time. I view it as a journey. The description below is from Wikipedia. It explains it well as a process more than an event.


Belief can be understood as a state of mind in the process of increasing understanding that is sometimes called deduction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning). As people develop structures of understandings from observation or learned facts (generally accepted truths), they create a theory that is not unlike a bridge, sitting on those pillars of facts. This structure-building process is sometimes called induction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning). A general understanding of the specific facts is created. As people use these theories in their daily activities, research or experimentation, they tell themselves: I believe the underlying structure is true, to the best of my understanding — so, based on this theory (faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith)), I will see what is to come of it. This application and testing of faith is sometimes called deduction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning). New, specific information is developed by testing general understanding. This application of the general to the specific is what can be called faith; belief is our thinking that our faith is applicable in a given situation.
In essence, religious belief is similar. The difference lies in how specifics are approached: it could be said that science generally builds up from facts using induction, while religion generally builds down from accepted general principles using deduction. The common area of these two pyramids is a diamond that is accepted from both directions. The understanding (faith) and the applicability of that understanding (belief) are such pairs.

[moonglow]

moonglow,


re: “ I would bet you have all sorts of beliefs that came about for some reason or another right?”


That is correct. However, as I said, I did not obtain any of these beliefs by consciously CHOOSING to have them.


re: “People CAN and DO choose to believe all sorts of things all the time...”


And that is what I would like to learn. How do you consciously CHOOSE to do that - consciously CHOOSE to believe? What do you do that allows you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true? Perhaps you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

Lets focus on one thing at a time here...you said this: That is correct. However, as I said, I did not obtain any of these beliefs by consciously CHOOSING to have them.

If you didn't choose to believe those things you believe, then how did you come to believe them? Someone forced you to believe them or what? Did your subconscious decide to believe in them and your subconscious rules over your conscious thinking and reasoning? that would be werid...

I would like you to slow down and really think about this one thing for a minute....how did you come to the beliefs you have?

[rstrats]

Walstib,


re: “I am trying to pin down what you mean by state of mind.”


At the moment you realized that there was only one viable position with regard to the existence of a supreme being, did you also at that moment realize that you believed - were convinced without any doubt - that a supreme being existed?

[rstrats]

Realist1981,


re: “I don’t understand the point of this. Are you saying nobody can choose to believe anything? “


Not necessarily . I am only saying that “I” have never been able to consciously CHOOSE to believe things. However, when ever I ask someone who says that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, to demonstrate their ability and explain how they do it, no one has complied.

[rstrats]

My Joy,


re: “I'm not sure that belief happens instantaneously as you have described...”


Can you explain how you can believe that something doesn’t exist, and at the same time believe that it does?

[rstrats]

moonglow,


re: “...how did you come to the beliefs you have?”


I would guess that they have been obtained through some subconscious process taking place in my mind as result of being subjected to outside stimuli, such as literature, lectures, media, and conversation.

[Walstib]

re: “I am trying to pin down what you mean by state of mind.”

At the moment you realized that there was only one viable position with regard to the existence of a supreme being, did you also at that moment realize that you believed - were convinced without any doubt - that a supreme being existed?

I would have to say yes to that. I can remember it as clear as when it first happened. As well as it being the God of the Bible, this was where much of the evidence had come from and it backed up all the other evidence from people and surroundings. Also in my "head context" is was more the tone of convinced without a doubt than believed. They may be the same thing... but the first has a better description for me.

Joe

[My Joy]

My Joy,


re: “I'm not sure that belief happens instantaneously as you have described...”


Can you explain how you can believe that something doesn’t exist, and at the same time believe that it does?

I would say this explains it best:
Belief can be understood as a state of mind in the process of increasing understanding that is sometimes called deduction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning)

It is a process that happens over time. Since it is gradual I'm not sure if a person can identify an exact time.

[moonglow]

moonglow,


re: “...how did you come to the beliefs you have?”


I would guess that they have been obtained through some subconscious process taking place in my mind as result of being subjected to outside stimuli, such as literature, lectures, media, and conversation.

So when you were in school and the teacher presented facts to you, and facts in the textbooks and said this is a fact...you didn't choose to believe it inspite of the evidence? You had to wait until your subconscious came around and decided to believe it? That really doesn't make alot of sense actually. I mean image you are sitting in a history class and presented with the facts on a certain war in history...the facts show who was president, who was fighting, why they were, etc, etc....but you just refused to believe this until something in your subconscious kicked in?

If I gave you a link to world war two and you read through it with all the facts you would say you just couldn't believe it because you cannot make yourself belief something? if this is true I wonder how you even got through school unless you just lied and pretended everything was true just to past the tests...

[rstrats]

moonglow,


re: “So when you were in school and the teacher presented facts to you, and facts in the textbooks and said this is a fact...you didn't choose to believe it inspite of the evidence?”


I didn’t CONSCIOUSLY CHOOSE to believe that the material being presented was factual.


re: “You had to wait until your subconscious came around and decided to believe it?... you just refused to believe this until something in your subconscious kicked in?”


It was awhile ago, but I would guess that it kicked in immediately in most cases.


re: “If I gave you a link to world war two and you read through it with all the facts you would say you just couldn't believe it because you cannot make yourself belief something? if this is true I wonder how you even got through school unless you just lied and pretended everything was true just to past the tests...”


If I realized, after reading your link, that I didn’t have a belief with regard to the truthfulness of what the link was presenting, it wouldn’t be because I consciously CHOSE to not believe it.


Look, all you have to do to show me that a belief can be consciously CHOSEN is to demonstrate your ability. As I asked you earlier, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in leprechauns, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Were you able to do that, and if you were, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

[dljc]

What do you do at the last moment to make your lack of belief instantaneously change to belief? To change from non-belief to belief at the last minute as you are suggesting here, you have to be willing to accept the information/event that is given to you, for what it is.

Let me explain what I mean. Lets say you and a buddy are walking in the desert. You have a canteen of water, and you are 8 miles from the house you last saw to get help. It's hot and you are continually drinking out of this canteen to keep yourself hydrated. After you have traveled half the distance to the last house you saw, you come to the realization that you are not going to have enough water to make it to the house. We know we can go for more than just a few hours without water, but when you are walking in the hot desert, a cool drink of water to even wet your mouth helps you have the strength to carry on.

Knowing that you are only half way back to the last house and that you are running very low on water, you want help from somewhere. Lets say you say a prayer something like this, "God if you are really there, let us find water somewhere out here, to help us make it". Then you reach a place where there are trees and some vegetation. As you are standing there resting and trying to figure out what to do about water from this point forward, because you now realize you have a cup or less between two people.

As you stand there in the slient desert reflecting on your current situation. You notice the sound of trickling water, as it is the only sound being made at the time. You follow the sound and find an existing spring that you knew nothing about prior to this event. You take a small drink of it, and it is easy to swallow as fresh clean water.

Would you consider this a prayer answered? Or would you just consider it a coincidence? I have heard several people say there is no such thing as coincidence, and I have recently heard that a coincidence is God's way of staying anonymous. I like the last one, simply because we have a choice to either believe in Him or not.

Now you can look at this situation either way you want to. You can say we just happened to be standing where we could hear the sound of the trickling water. But insert the fact a prayer was said, did we just HAPPEN to walk to this particular place, or were we guided to that particular place where we stood?

[rstrats]

dljc,


re: “Would you consider this a prayer answered? Or would you just consider it a coincidence?”


I don’t know. I’d have to actually be in that situation. What I do know, based on past experience, is that either belief would not be engendered by my conscious CHOOSING to have it.

If you are suggesting that you have the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I would ask you to demonstrate that ability as I asked moonglow to do in my post #16.

[gin_koneko]

A number of folks on these boards seem to say that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. Since I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, and since I would really like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person, I wonder if someone who thinks that way might be able to share how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to make your lack of belief instantaneously change to belief?

What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?


Personally speaking, I've never been able to make myself believe or not believe in something. I can really relate to this question because it has always puzzled me too when people say "just believe" or "just have faith". In my opinion, all we do is open ourselves up to possibilities and that is what slowly enables faith. I'm going to share a personal story and I'm sorry in advance if it's too long.

I became a Christian after being pretty much an atheist and pagan for a while and growing up without ever going to church regularly. It wasn't an overnight thing at all. The first step was breaking down my own barriers to belief. Some bad things had happened to me that made me doubt God's precense, His greatness and made me angry at the (Christian) family who hadn't protected me. I was really hostile when my journey started and I had no intention of becoming a Christian, ever. I thought it was a lie and a trick. What helped was that I was able to get past that anger towards God. I realized that it was the inability, bad choices and imperfection of some people in my life that had caused the problems and that it wasn't something personal or that God just hated me or anything like that. I started learning about free will and knew it was true since I'd made bad choices too and God hadn't stopped me. It didn't go quickly or easily. I spent lots of time in tears and being self-destructive, feeling unloved and so furious that sometimes I couldn't breathe. There were times when I backstepped and was sure God wasn't real, but then a few days would pass and I'd see something good in the world again and come to think maybe it was true that there was a God.

So, I stopped hating and being so angry, but I still didn't really believe. It had always been easier to say God wasn't real than to say God was real, because I thought God had let me down. If anything, to me God was some make believe figure like the tooth fairy that only naive people trusted. Even when I came to understand that wasn't the case, I still didn't have any foundation for faith. I found all kinds of holes in Christianity and challenged everyone with them because I still was sort of hostile about a religion that I believed couldn't help me. Anything that seemed contradictory, I argued about. At the time my family put me in Christian school so I'd be surrounded with Christians my age, because I was fighting with my parents a lot and couldn't turn to them. My teachers and my new friends let me ask any question. At first I was really obnoxious and wanted to shock and offend them because I was so angry. Later though I started actually being curious about this God so many people found so much love from. I sort of wanted to believe, but I didn't want to get tricked. I'd look through the Bible for things I didn't understand and make people explain them to me. I started out from a position of wanting to tear other people's faith down because I thought it was a lie, but I ended up discovering that every answer was slowly building up my own faith. I realized I was believing in a God I wasn't sure I could trust, and it was a little scary. Even when I told myself God wasn't real, something in the back of my head insisted otherwise, even though I didn't think I'd ever love God.

More time went by and I kept questioning. I read all kinds of books and went to all different churches. I even tried out some different religions but I kept being drawn back to Christianity. I thought about what other people said, that God was joy and love, a father. I wanted someone like that too. I started building up my belief by going to church, asking more questions, praying and reading more. Slowly, the things that kept me away got resolved and I found real faith. I actually accepted Jesus because in the Bible he seemed like someone wise who was trustworthy and good, but oddly enough Jesus and God seemed totally different to me for a while and I sort of pictured them with different attributes and "personalities". The questions I had were becoming answered and the God that seemed mysterious and maybe unreal slowly became obvious. It wasn't something I up and decided to do. It was like a puzzle coming together bit by bit; with every piece I saw more of the picture. I did try sometimes closing my eyes and wishing for instant perfect faith, which never worked. It just made be discouraged and I felt I was doing something wrong. But exploring worked, and so did opening my heart and mind instead of closing myself off and thinking I was above it all or not good enough for God.

So that is my very long answer. If someone else has been able to make themselves believe just by wanting to, then they are really lucky. For me it took work but now I wouldn't want it any other way.

[dljc]

I don’t know. I’d have to actually be in that situation.

And that statement right there, answers the question of why a message board can only do so much. I can only present to you in words an experience. Unless you were there, it will mean nothing to you. If you aren't willing to accept that testimony as evidence, then our conversation is pointless. Is it not? Are you just making excuses as to why you CHOOSE not to believe?

[mg23]

A number of folks on these boards seem to say that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. Since I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, and since I would really like to be able to do that -
What? You made the conscious choice to not choose to accept consciously chosen beliefs. ;)
for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person, I wonder if someone who thinks that way might be able to share how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to make your lack of belief instantaneously change to belief?
You're oversimpifying the issue here. Belief is never a black and white issue; I agree that there are black and white beliefs, but the process of belief is never so easy to distinguish. For instance, the belief in God is a gradual process that results in a general belief in Him. In between those two extremes of belief in disbelief the individual has to face moments of doubt and moments of inspiration. Speaking from personal experience, a belief in God is never definite and absolute. Hence, we see the reason for faith, as we do in any circumstance. An evolutionist may not have all the answers, but he or she has faith that ongoing research will prevail. At one point though, the individual must make a definite decision, whether for God or for himself. "No man can have two masters," and in the same way one side will eventually give. It is those conscious choices we make that ultimately define the result.

I'd also like to note that just because you don't recognize choice A leading to result B, it doesn't follow that the two are connected. Recall the principle of causality (let's not concern ourselves with Hume here).
What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?
Logically, if a person is ultimately convinced by a preponderance of the evidence, he or she must make the resulting choice. I suppose at the "singularity" between belief and disbelief the skeptic must make a conscious decision to believe or not to believe based on what he or she knows.

Of course, there are those beliefs that are much easier to make a choice from. For instance, the belief that I look better in green than in red is far easier than choosing empiricism versus rationalism.

[CRIKEYhawk]

In my case, it wasn't an instantaneous change. It actually occurred over several years. Various events in my life, the teachings of others, coupled with my own research gradually helped me to understand that there was more out there than what I originally thought. Even after I came to the conclusion that God existed, and that Jesus died for our sins, it took me several months to finally accept His sacrifice and allow God into my life. What can I say? I've always been a stubborn one...:lol:


Same here. It was Much more gradual than many pastors will have you believe. Even if I was "saved" in a single event, I am STILL learning about everything, and I'm still unsure of my beliefs. I doubt that will ever change, because I don't have the typical reasons to believe. My parents are really good, and I wasn't taught to believe anything. Most people I talk to have been through Something in their life to change their beliefs, but I choose to be Christian, so I really can't relate to a lot of people in my church. :dunno:

[rstrats]

dljc,


re: “Are you just making excuses as to why you CHOOSE not to believe?”


I have said that I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have. Where have I said that I “CHOOSE not to believe” something?



BTW, you have a question directed to you in message #31.

[dljc]

dljc,


re: “Would you consider this a prayer answered? Or would you just consider it a coincidence?”


I don’t know. I’d have to actually be in that situation. What I do know, based on past experience, is that either belief would not be engendered by my conscious CHOOSING to have it.

If you are suggesting that you have the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I would ask you to demonstrate that ability as I asked moonglow to do in my post #16.

dljc,


re: “Are you just making excuses as to why you CHOOSE not to believe?”


I have said that I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have. Where have I said that I “CHOOSE not to believe” something?



BTW, you have a question directed to you in message #31.And you have answered the question. You won't believe unless you have been in the situation. I can only tell you of my experiences. Unless you are willing to consider the possibility that God answers prayers; something that I already have witnessed and experienced. Then nothing I say will convince you. Which is why I point this out.


I don’t know. I’d have to actually be in that situation.

And that statement right there, answers the question of why a message board can only do so much. I can only present to you in words an experience. Unless you were there, it will mean nothing to you. If you aren't willing to accept that testimony as evidence, then our conversation is pointless. Is it not? Are you just making excuses as to why you CHOOSE not to believe?

Re: "I have said that I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have." Whether you realize it or not, you CHOOSE to believe what you want to believe. You choose not to believe what I have experienced because you weren't there. There is nothing wrong with that. But the fact remains that you concsiously choose not to accept my experience and those of others who have posted in this thread.

You concsiously choose what you believe, by your own experiences in the given situation. As I've said, my experiences will have little to no effect on you. The difference is, I am willing to believe that God made the situation turn out the way it did, because I asked Him in prayer. No one else knew that I prayed what I did. No one that I could see, was there to say, "here's some clean water". I simply asked Him to let us find water. He increased my faith when I was silent and heard the water trickling. As I've said, I don't expect you to believe it. Because as you've said, "you weren't there". So how can I demonstrate to you that belief is a choice?:hmm:

[rstrats]

dljc,


re: “You won't believe unless you have been in the situation. “


I did not say that. You asked that if I said a prayer; “God if you are really there, let us find water...”, and if we subsequently did find water, would I consider this to be an answered pray thus showing a supreme being to exist, or would I consider it simply a coincidence. Since I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I said that I would have to be in that situation in order to know what my reaction might be. It might not even be one of those two possibilities. But no matter what I might be feeling, based on passed experience, it would not be because I consciously CHOSE to have it.



re: “You consciously choose what you believe...”


I’ve said repeatedly that I never have. What reason would I have to lie about it?



re: “So how can I demonstrate to you that belief is a choice?”


Perhaps you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your ability and technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. . If you can do that - which I hope you can - then I will see that it can be done. You can then explain how you did it. You can detail how you would have been able to say: “At the moment I believe that leprechauns do not exist. However, I am going to believe that they DO exist ,and --- poof --- I now believe - am convinced without a doubt - in their existence. How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

[dljc]

re: “So how can I demonstrate to you that belief is a choice?”


Perhaps you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your ability and technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. . If you can do that - which I hope you can - then I will see that it can be done. You can then explain how you did it. You can detail how you would have been able to say: “At the moment I believe that leprechauns do not exist. However, I am going to believe that they DO exist ,and --- poof --- I now believe - am convinced without a doubt - in their existence. How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?Let me ask you a question. Do you believe I exist? How do you know that I'm not just some artificial intelligence talking to you through your computer?

If you believe I exist, how did you come to the conclusion that I do? You can't see me, you only know my username on this message board. So at what point did you CHOOSE to believe that I exist? How do you know you're not just talking to a computer?

[Love123]

A number of folks on these boards seem to say that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. Since I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, and since I would really like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person, I wonder if someone who thinks that way might be able to share how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to make your lack of belief instantaneously change to belief?

What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Personally I had knowledge of God.
Still my heart was not in accord with the knowledge of God.
I was also rebellious of God; a mixed person;
my mind and heart were not in accord.
Many times I did not want to hear His words.
I wanted to run from Christians and what they had to say of God and or soul salvation.

Just Minutes! … before I was saved (just before I approached the altar of salvation) … I felt a tug of my heart. That’s what I can offer you as
(it was) my sign; my heart was in accord with my knowledge of God.

That tug was faith had made its presence known to me.
(Or I would not have considered the altar call was for me)

I knelt at the altar and was saved; Praise Jesus! ...I can tell you the same person that got up from the altar was not the person that knelt down. I had faith- I believed- certainty -I knew…no doubts. (Faith is the mind and heart in unison; working together.)
I can say I had little faith in order to ask Jesus into my heart. I gained greater faith once He arrived.

There is a difference in the knowledge of God and faith in God.
I could sputter all I want in the defense of God; quote scriptures of what God said to be true. Yet still its just knowledge and any of us can do that.
Since knowledge of and faith in are not the same. Faith must come first and then salvation. Or how can one be saved?

Faith can make its presence known minutes or seconds before one invites Jesus into their heart.
Or even while in the process of inviting… Jesus in.

God Bless*

[rstrats]

dljc,


In your post #37, you asked me how you could demonstrate your ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things. In my post #38 I gave you a way that you could do that. However, your response to that post ignores it, and instead asks if I believe that you exist. If I do, you ask at what point I CHOSE to have that belief. So in addition to ignoring my request to demonstrate your ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things, you are also ignoring my posts #1, #16, #23, #36 and #38 where I stated that I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, and that would include any belief that I might have with regard to your existence.

[dljc]

dljc,


In your post #37, you asked me how you could demonstrate your ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things. In my post #38 I gave you a way that you could do that. However, your response to that post ignores it, and instead asks if I believe that you exist. If I do, you ask at what point I CHOSE to have that belief. So in addition to ignoring my request to demonstrate your ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things, you are also ignoring my posts #1, #16, #23, #36 and #38 where I stated that I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, and that would include any belief that I might have with regard to your existence.In post #39 I am demonstrating to you that you consciously choose to believe that I exist. If you don't, then who are you talking to? If I don't exist, how can I ignore your request? So at some point you have to consciously choose to believe that I do exist. When does that take place, and how do you come to the conclusion that I do exist and you are not just talking to an artificially intelligent computer program? You see, the burden of proof is not mine, but yours.

[rstrats]

dljc,


re: “In post #39 I am demonstrating to you that you consciously choose to believe that I exist...If I don’t exist, how can I ignore your request?”


Now you’re just being obstinate. I didn’t ask you to demonstrate where I have consciously CHOSEN to believe things - which I tell you for the seventh time I have never been able to do. I asked you to demonstrate YOUR ability. So far you have ignored that request.


re: “...how do you come to the conclusion that I do exist...?”


As I said in my post #25, I would guess that my belief in your existence has been obtained through some subconscious process taking place in my mind .

[dljc]

And that is what I would like to learn. How do you consciously CHOOSE to do that - consciously CHOOSE to believe? What do you do that allows you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true? Perhaps you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?This is your original question. Here is my reply.To change from non-belief to belief at the last minute as you are suggesting here, you have to be willing to accept the information/event that is given to you, for what it is.

Let me explain what I mean. Lets say you and a buddy are walking in the desert. You have a canteen of water, and you are 8 miles from the house you last saw to get help. It's hot and you are continually drinking out of this canteen to keep yourself hydrated. After you have traveled half the distance to the last house you saw, you come to the realization that you are not going to have enough water to make it to the house. We know we can go for more than just a few hours without water, but when you are walking in the hot desert, a cool drink of water to even wet your mouth helps you have the strength to carry on.

Knowing that you are only half way back to the last house and that you are running very low on water, you want help from somewhere. Lets say you say a prayer something like this, "God if you are really there, let us find water somewhere out here, to help us make it". Then you reach a place where there are trees and some vegetation. As you are standing there resting and trying to figure out what to do about water from this point forward, because you now realize you have a cup or less between two people.

As you stand there in the slient desert reflecting on your current situation. You notice the sound of trickling water, as it is the only sound being made at the time. You follow the sound and find an existing spring that you knew nothing about prior to this event. You take a small drink of it, and it is easy to swallow as fresh clean water.

Would you consider this a prayer answered? Or would you just consider it a coincidence? I have heard several people say there is no such thing as coincidence, and I have recently heard that a coincidence is God's way of staying anonymous. I like the last one, simply because we have a choice to either believe in Him or not.

Now you can look at this situation either way you want to. You can say we just happened to be standing where we could hear the sound of the trickling water. But insert the fact a prayer was said, did we just HAPPEN to walk to this particular place, or were we guided to that particular place where we stood?Your answer was bascially, "I wasn't there". This was a personal experience that I had. How can I expect you to believe something I witnessed? Because as you have said you weren't there.

dljc,


re: “In post #39 I am demonstrating to you that you consciously choose to believe that I exist...If I don’t exist, how can I ignore your request?”


Now you’re just being obstinate. I didn’t ask you to demonstrate where I have consciously CHOSEN to believe things - which I tell you for the seventh time I have never been able to do. I asked you to demonstrate YOUR ability. So far you have ignored that request.


re: “...how do you come to the conclusion that I do exist...?”


As I said in my post #25, I would guess that my belief in your existence has been obtained through some subconscious process taking place in my mind .I am conveying to you the only way I see how to through this medium. My questions about whether I exist was not to make light of this situation. It was to prove to you that we all make conscious choices to believe what we do. Whatever that may be.

I believe that you say I'm being obstinate because I haven't said anything about a leprechaun in my replies. How do I come to that belief? Because you keep numbering the times you say you've asked the question, and how I am dodging that question or ignoring it. I'm not; I have been answering it, I just didn't use the leprechaun as the example. Because I didn't think that was what your real question was. After all this, is a Christian message board and not a mythology message board. You are asking my how I came to believe in God are you not? Not leprechauns.

Believing in God comes from the relationship you have with Him. That can be a slow process or something that happens instantanously because you receive the revelation of Him. The example I gave of the desert and running out of water, was my own personal experience, it's just one of the testimonies I have to give. But it was a personal experience, and I don't expect you to believe it without question. But it was to show you that it was something that added to my faith in a time when I wasn't so sure.

If you can't or won't accept this as an answer, then there is nothing I can do about that. Because I truly feel I have tried to answer your question. I just chose not to address the leprechaun reference for the reasons I've mentioned.

You have to approach God with an open heart, and be willing to accept that if you have asked for something that no one else could possibly know about. And that request was answered, then it was Him who answered that request. I believe that, because of instances like I've mentioned. The more I listen to and for Him, the more I see that He is there. But how am I going to be able to show you that here in this medium? Words through my testimony. That's the only way I can do that is tell you of my experiences. You can believe them or not, that's your choice. But aren't you making a conscious decision to believe what I've said or not to? Just as I've made a conscious decision not to address the leprechaun example.

[rstrats]

dljc,


re: “Your answer was bascially, ‘I wasn't there’. This was a personal experience that I had. How can I expect you to believe something I witnessed? Because as you have said you weren't there. “


In your post #30, you asked me that if I said a prayer; “God if you are really there, let us find water...”, and if I subsequently did find water, would I consider this to be an answered pray thus showing a supreme being to exist, or would I consider it simply a coincidence. I replied that because I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE to believe things, that I would have to be in that situation in order to know what my reaction might be. It might not even be one of those two possibilities. But no matter what I might be feeling, based on passed experience, it would not be because I consciously CHOSE to have it. You said nothing with regard to believing the truth about something that you witnessed. But even if you had, I don’t see what that has to do with my request to you to demonstrate your stated ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.


re: “I am conveying to you the only way I see how to through this medium. My questions about whether I exist was not to make light of this situation. It was to prove to you that we all make conscious choices to believe what we do. “


For the eighth time, I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have.


re: “...you keep numbering the times you say you've asked the question...”


I have never numbered the times that I have asked you to demonstrate your ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.


re: “...aren't you making a conscious decision to believe what I've said or not to? Just as I've made a conscious decision not to address the leprechaun example.”


For the ninth time, no. And I did not ask you to make a conscious decision to NOT address the leprechaun example. I asked you TO address it by consciously demonstrating your stated ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.

[Frances]

. You can’t believe and not believe at the same time.
At some point in each of our lives we either make a conscious decision to believe/trust Jesus Christ to be God, who came to earth to pay the penalty for our individual Sin by dying on the Cross, Rose bodily from the dead, and makes His Holy Spirit available to 'me' personally - or make a decision not to trust Him. Those who make the decision to trust Him will then be baptised, demonstrating that Jesus Christ Jesus is Lord of their life instead of to Satan.

'Belief' in a Biblical sense is a decision that may happen quickly or take some time to arrive at. .

I made a decision in a similar way some time ago regarding which brand of baked beans is best. I investigated the claims of the manufactorer, the ingredients included in various brands, the wholesomeness for their ingredients, and which suits me best. . . .I took my time deliberating - then made a decision.

[rstrats]

Frances,


re: “...At some point in each of our lives we either make a conscious decision to believe...or make a decision not to...”


Is there any implication in that comment that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things?

[dljc]

dljc,


re: “Your answer was bascially, ‘I wasn't there’. This was a personal experience that I had. How can I expect you to believe something I witnessed? Because as you have said you weren't there. “


In your post #30, you asked me that if I said a prayer; “God if you are really there, let us find water...”, and if I subsequently did find water, would I consider this to be an answered pray thus showing a supreme being to exist, or would I consider it simply a coincidence. I replied that because I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE to believe things, that I would have to be in that situation in order to know what my reaction might be. It might not even be one of those two possibilities. But no matter what I might be feeling, based on passed experience, it would not be because I consciously CHOSE to have it. You said nothing with regard to believing the truth about something that you witnessed. But even if you had, I don’t see what that has to do with my request to you to demonstrate your stated ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.


re: “I am conveying to you the only way I see how to through this medium. My questions about whether I exist was not to make light of this situation. It was to prove to you that we all make conscious choices to believe what we do. “


For the eighth time, I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have.


re: “...you keep numbering the times you say you've asked the question...”


I have never numbered the times that I have asked you to demonstrate your ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.


re: “...aren't you making a conscious decision to believe what I've said or not to? Just as I've made a conscious decision not to address the leprechaun example.”


For the ninth time, no. And I did not ask you to make a conscious decision to NOT address the leprechaun example. I asked you TO address it by consciously demonstrating your stated ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.A decision is based on a choice made at the time of the event. You weigh the evidence at hand and you make your choice. Whether that choice is the right one or not, you go by what you believe to be the truth considering the evidence you have at the time. But you have to have a baseline of what is truth and what is a lie to you. Without it, you don't know whether the choice you made was the right one or not. But the circumstances of that action will dictate whether you made the right choice.

I have never believed in leprechuans. Perhaps that's because, when I was first introduced the story of them, as a child, it was made known that they were a mythological creature, much like the jackalope in the US. So why would I even entertain the idea that they could be real for the sake of this discussion?

God has shown me things that I can't convey to you in this thread or any other. All I can tell you is I asked Him with a soft and open heart to show me something. He did. And under the circumstances of the situation. I chose to believe that it was He that answered my prayer. As time has gone by, I have seen more instances of where He has answered other prayers. But until I was willing to take that first step in asking for something simple, with a sincere and open heart. I couldn't choose to believe what I believe today. Because I chose not to. So under the circumstances of the situations I have consciously chosen to believe. Which is what I've been trying to tell you all along.

Just as I have chosen to believe what I believe. You have consciously chosen to come here today to continue this discussion after so long. Have you not?

The burden of proof lies within the person seeking. No matter how many times I say this, I still hear that the burden of proof is on my shoulders as a Christian. But I know from my own experiences that that burden lies on the person seeking Him. I do hope that one day you will come to the same understanding I have. He is knocking at the door of your heart. It's up to you to open it and allow Him to come in and sup with you and you with Him.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

This door is a tricky one; the door knob is only on one side. That side happens to be on your side. He's knocking....do you hear Him?

Good luck in your search for Him.

[stabalizer]

A number of folks on these boards seem to say that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. Since I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, and since I would really like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person, I wonder if someone who thinks that way might be able to share how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to make your lack of belief instantaneously change to belief?

What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

It's called an epiphany, a light bulb moment.

[petepet]

What I say now is looking from the human side. In the end true faith comes from God. It appears to me that we cannot choose to believe. What we can to some extent choose to do is to trust. And a further thing we can do is assist ourselves towards belief. We can read the BIBLE. We can pray. We can tell others about Christ. We can mix with people who believe. And as we do these things belief comes. But in the end true faith is the soul's response towards God. And that is God's doing

[rstrats]

dljc,


re: “I have never believed in leprechauns. Perhaps that's because, when I was first introduced the story of them, as a child, it was made known that they were a mythological creature, much like the jackalope in the US. So why would I even entertain the idea that they could be real for the sake of this discussion? “


Because I asked you to demonstrate your stated ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things. If you can consciously engender your beliefs, then you should be able to believe that leprechauns exist.

[rstrats]

dljc,


re: “You have consciously chosen to come here today to continue this discussion after so long. Have you not?”


Indeed I have. But that has nothing to do with consciously CHOOSING to believe something. And I would still like to see you demonstrate your stated ability to do just that.

[dljc]

dljc,


re: “You have consciously chosen to come here today to continue this discussion after so long. Have you not?”


Indeed I have. But that has nothing to do with consciously CHOOSING to believe something. And I would still like to see you demonstrate your stated ability to do just that.

dljc,


re: “I have never believed in leprechauns. Perhaps that's because, when I was first introduced the story of them, as a child, it was made known that they were a mythological creature, much like the jackalope in the US. So why would I even entertain the idea that they could be real for the sake of this discussion? “


Because I asked you to demonstrate your stated ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things. If you can consciously engender your beliefs, then you should be able to believe that leprechauns exist.You say you are seeking Christ. Yet you continue to bump this thread up to try to get me to answer a question I've already answered, it's just not to your satisfaction. So I choose to believe that your status that says you are seeking Christ is not the case. Instead you are only trying to get me to say that I choose to believe or not to believe in leprechauns. If that's the case, I choose not to believe in leprechauns. Just as I choose to believe you are not really seeking Christ. Demonstration over. So why are you here?

[rstrats]

dljc,

re: “...I choose to believe that your status that says you are seeking Christ is not the case...So why are you here?”



When I registered for this forum, and had to pick one of the three responses to “Are you a Christian?”, I thought that the one I picked was the closest to the feeling that I have with regard to theological matters. I would have preferred to have had a fourth selection; “No, I am not a Christian, but I am hoping to obtain a belief in a supreme being”. As I said in my OP, I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have. I don’t think that it is possible to consciously CHOOSE to believe things. However, because so many people on these boards either state or imply that they can do just that, and because I would dearly like to have that ability - for example, to be able to consciously CHOOSE to have a belief in a supreme being - I have asked them to demonstrate it in real time so that I can at least know that it can be done, even if they can’t explain how they do it. So far no one that I have asked has done that.

They have given examples of past beliefs they have obtained about things , and have attributed conscious CHOICE to the engendering of those beliefs, but have failed to show any current ability. However, most likely as with myself, I think that those beliefs came about through some subconscious process taking place in their minds, and they are confusing that with conscious hands-on engendering of belief.


re: “... you are only trying to get me to say that I choose to believe or not to believe in leprechauns.”


That would be incorrect. I have not asked you to choose to NOT believe in leprechauns. Since I assumed that you already believed that they didn’t exist, I asked you to believe that they did. If you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, you should have had no trouble in doing that. So far that doesn’t seem to be the case.

[Frances]

Frances,

re: “...At some point in each of our lives we either make a conscious decision to believe...or make a decision not to...”

Is there any implication in that comment that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things?

Definately. 'Belief', in a Biblical sense, means to 'trust in' . . .it is not a state of mind falling on you like rain. It is a concious decision to trust God and His Word.

If you have discovered all the facts of God's offer of Salvation you have made some decisions (whether you intended to or not) - either you decided to believe those facts or disbelieve them. . . either to accept God's offer, or turn His offer down (there is no fence to sit on - if you don't accept His offer you are automaticaly turning it down.

re. the baked beans, I have, before now, chosen them by the declared ingredients - and discovered the manufacturer had neglected to say gluten or milk were included . . . and became very ill.

God's Word, the Holy Bible, does not neglect to make full information available, in either the Old or New Testament - He has never let me down, and I can safely promise you that, if you choose to trust Him, He will never let you donw either..

[Brotherken]

I believe that.....
Faith Is a Gift
And A person Doesnt Chose to have a saving Faith Or Belief
God Chooses ........we just accept it or don't

[sissy001]

to have faith in God is to trust him to keep his promises
where are his promises? in His Word
and like Frances he has never let me down and should you choose to trust him he will never let you down either

[rchivers]

Didn't we learn about this in school? Its called deductive reasoning isn't it?

[BlessedMan]

I was recently passing by a little plastic tub that was part full of water. I saw a few bugs had drowned but there was some little flying thing that was still fighting to stay alive. I walked away a few steps but something started to bother me. I thought about that bug struggling and decided that the only chance it had was that I would pour it out. So I got the bug free and wondered why I did that when I would of had no problem killing it if it was in my house. I guess I hold a belief that if I do kind things when I can then things will be better for me in my own time of need.

[slynx]

As I said in my OP, I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have. I don’t think that it is possible to consciously CHOOSE to believe things. However, because so many people on these boards either state or imply that they can do just that, and because I would dearly like to have that ability - for example, to be able to consciously CHOOSE to have a belief in a supreme being - I have asked them to demonstrate it in real time so that I can at least know that it can be done, even if they can’t explain how they do it. So far no one that I have asked has done that. ... I have not asked you to choose to NOT believe in leprechauns. Since I assumed that you already believed that they didn’t exist, I asked you to believe that they did. If you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, you should have had no trouble in doing that. So far that doesn’t seem to be the case.
The problem here, as I see it, involves different individuals' definitions of or understandings of "belief", "choice", and "conscious".

A belief is nothing more than an inner affirmation that something is true, that it conforms to reality. Regardless of what single beliefs or combination of beliefs that any individual holds, they think those beliefs are true, so they believe them. What they believe may not actually be true, but as long as a person thinks it is true, they will continue to believe it.

Therefore, it is NOT POSSIBLE for an individual to make a "choice to believe" anything that they think is not true. That would be like trying to "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" -- can't be done. The way to "pull yourself up" is by grabbing hold of something external to yourself.

You seem to be giving the word "conscious" the connotations of both "deliberate" - purposely volitional - and "rational" - based on thought and evidence. But, not all choices are either deliberate or rational. And therefore, not all beliefs are chosen by deliberate or rational means.

Some beliefs come about indirectly.
Many, if not most, of the beliefs people hold occur in this manner. A child trusts that his parents tell him the truth, so when they tell him that the color of the grass is green, he accepts that as the truth and thereafter believes that grass is green in color. The child made a choice to believe his parents, and therefore, his beliefs stemming from that choice can be said to have been chosen. The same scenario continues throughout one's life; most of what a person believes is chosen because they trust that the people giving them the information are telling the truth.

Beliefs can be consciously - deliberately and rationally - changed; not by a conscious choice to change the belief itself directly, but by making a conscious choice to investigate the truthfulness of the belief.

So, no, you cannot force yourself to go from believing the statement: "God does not exist", to believing the statement: "God does exist", merely by some effort of will. As long as your mind holds to the thought that all the evidence of which you are aware makes the statement: "God does not exist" a true statement, you will continue to believe that statement.

Also, not all beliefs are of equal weight. A belief such as: "God does not exist" is a major one that is bolstered and reinforced by a whole host of more minor beliefs - such as "there is no such thing as the supernatural" - which are also bolstered an reinforced by other less important beliefs.

For myself, my ideas about the truthfulness of the statement: "God does not exist" began to change when I read C.S. Lewis's book, "Mere Christianity". One by one, many of the beliefs that had been reinforcing my belief that God did not exist began to be demolished. I could have chosen at any point to refuse to accept as true any of the points he was making. At each of those points, such a choice would have been a conscious choice to NOT alter my belief "God does not exist", by retaining the beliefs that reinforced that major belief.

There came a time when the beliefs reinforcing "God does not exist" were in balance with the beliefs reinforcing "God does exist".

And this is the ONLY point where a conscious, deliberate, rational, CHOICE can be made to alter a belief: when 2 opposing beliefs have a balance of reinforcing beliefs. Whatever choice you make now will tip the balance in favor of one or the other major belief.

Knowing full-well -- because of my previous experience reading the book -- that more of my "God does not exist" reinforcing beliefs were going to be demolished if I kept reading, I had to choose: do I keep reading? or do I go out and buy a book by an Atheist author and try to reinforce the "God does not exist" belief.

I chose to keep reading. I was more motivated to find TRUTH, than I was in staying "comfortable" by holding on to the beliefs I was familiar with.

As I expected, more of my reinforcing beliefs were demolished. Finally, for me, only the belief "God does not exist" was left. It was juxtaposed, of course, against the opposing belief "God does exist" -- (a simplification, because there also could have been the options of religious gods other than the biblical God, but I had already determined previously that those options were NOT true.) But, now, the weight of the reinforcing beliefs was on the side of "God does exist".

I still wasn't sure, mind you. So - as I related in another thread - I prayed a prayer that was something like this: "Hey, God. I'm not at all sure you really are there -- but, if you are, then I would like to know you."

I had gone as far as rational, conscious, deliberate choices could take me. The choice to pray that prayer was a deliberate, rational, conscious choice. It was a choice to engage with the God I was not 100% convinced was there. It was a choice to exercise the faith I had (which I did not know at the time was God-supplied).

I did not consciously, deliberately, rationally KNOW it at the time, but the very fact that I DID pray, was an indication that my BELIEF was already changed.

Which leads to my last point: What a person DOES invariably reflects what they BELIEVE, even if they do not consciously or rationally know it. They make conscious choices BASED on what they believe, even when they are not consciously aware that that is why they are making those choices.

[calidog]

Belief a CHOICE?

I don't think we choose to believe but rather choose to act on our belief.
So what do we do when we go from the state of unbelief to belief? We act on our belief. In the case salvation we act on Gods conviction in our heart that we are sinners against Him and repent or turn from sin and turn to Him, trusting God (His word) that Christ died in our place and rose on the third day.

What belief did we have? It began with belief God exists. Since He exists we believe His word. Did we choose to believe this ? Maybe. Or is it a result of successive steps that God initiates?

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
He is a rewarder of him who seeks Him.

He gives everyone a measure of faith and rewards them who seeks Him. The reward must be faith.


He has acted, we act, He responds.

[rstrats]

slynx,

re: "...it is NOT POSSIBLE for an individual to make a ‘choice to believe’ anything that they think is not true."

I don’t think so either.


re: "You seem to be giving the word ‘conscious’ the connotations of both ‘deliberate’ - purposely volitional - and ‘rational’ - based on thought and evidence."

Deliberate and purposely volitional, yes, but if beliefs can be obtained by simply CHOOSING to have them, as a number of people on these boards seem to imply, then rational thought and evidence should not be necessary; prudent in some cases perhaps, but not necessary.

[slynx]

Deliberate and purposely volitional, yes, but if beliefs can be obtained by simply CHOOSING to have them, as a number of people on these boards seem to imply, then rational thought and evidence should not be necessary; prudent in some cases perhaps, but not necessary.
I have observed that rational thought and evidence ALWAYS precede the choice of what a person believes. However, the individual is not always consciously aware at each point in the process that they ARE gathering and weighing evidence using rational thought processes.

Change of belief and viewpoint cannot happen in an instant without a change of the underlying causes for belief. The changes may be subtle, but they always occur over time until a near equilibrium is established between 2 opposing beliefs. Then a single piece of evidence tips the scales. Mentally they just get to a point where they say, "Oh, yes, this is true and that isn't" and then decide to act on what they now perceive to be true. It is that decision to act that almost all the Christians I have talked to regard as the choice to believe in God.

[rstrats]

slynx,

re: "Mentally they just get to a point where they say, 'Oh, yes, this is true and that isn't' and then decide to act on what they now perceive to be true."


I wonder if you might give an example?

[Scruffy Kid]

Is it ever possible (or wise, or good) to choose to believe?

Dear rstrats,
I know that you've been here a year and a half, but we never met before, I think. Thus I want both to say: welcome to Bibleforums!! :hug:
and to let you know that: it's good to have you here!! :pp:pp:pp

Unfortunately, I don't have time just now to go through this long thread, but the original question Belief a CHOICE? which you raised is very important, and I'd just like to comment a bit on some points that it raises.

It is of course inherently the duty of rational beings to seek to know and accept the truth. That is, it is our duty to try to make our beliefs accord with actuality, with the fact of what is. To seek to believe what we know to be false is a kind of treason against our rational nature -- and also very foolish -- and to plunge into a belief simply because we would find it comforting, or pleasant in some way, or would like to hold it is a sort of culpable folly as well, though not as extreme a one.

Also, a related point which seems to be your main emphasis, for more or less sane and sensible individuals, many acts of arbitrarily willing to believe something which we don't particularly have grounds for thinking to be true is a kind of psychological impossiblity under many circumstances. Happily, we are often incapable of deceiving ourselves in such a way!

These considerations might lead one to suppose that what we believe, what we reckon to be the case, what we accept as true, what we think, is something that normally has, and should have, nothing to do with our will at all: it is simply a matter of what the facts, and logic based upon the facts, tell us.

The matter is not as simple as that, however, IMO. Rather, there is a sense in which our will and our intellect are, and rightly are, interrelated in their operations, and in which, for better or worse, sometimes properly and sometimes improperly, elements of willing do enter into our understanding of how things are, our beliefs about what is true.

(It could be interesting and helpful to some to trace these matters as they appear in the history of Western thought: what Thomas Aquinas said about the interrelation of will and intellect, what the 19th century philosopher and psychologist William James said, and how the early 20th century philosopher Bertrand Russell replied, and so on. I'm willing to think along those lines if it would be helpful to you, though I'm no expert on it; but I won't do so unless invited, because such things are not helpful to many people, and not to their taste, and I don't really know you and your predilections with respect to such things.)

One useful place to start might be to consider the cases in which people clearly do choose to believe, or especially not to believe.

We're all aware that there are many unpleasant things about life, our families, ourselves, our situations, the way the world is, and so on, that we would rather not face up to. In fact, faced with unpleasant truths, or unpleasant possibilities that might be the case, we often avert our gaze: we'd prefer not to think about such things, we'd prefer not to know that. Of course, occasionally such behavior might be sensible in a way: sometimes a person is aware of something so upsetting in his past that his mind rightly represses that memory, for a while, because he has not the strength to face it at present. In most cases, however, we think that this is an unwise, and probably at least mildly reprehensible way to act. Ordinarily, to willfully refuse to face facts is unwise, escapist, at least somewhat pusilanimous (even cowardly), and something that gets us in deeper trouble than we'd otherwise be in. We helpfully and graphically often call such a way of thinking, or such a refusal to face facts, "sticking our head in the sand".

We could, then refer to sticking our head in the sand as a choice to believe: a choice to ignore facts, and thus a choice to believe something else than what's actually the case. Obviously this is, almost always, a bad choice, and often a dishonest and reprehensible one!

Conversely though, if there are areas where one has refused to face facts, the main thing necessary for that person to come to knowledge of the truth is not, often, the presentation of additional evidence or logic, but a change of heart: a willingness to consider the unpleasant (or at least initially repugnant) truths that one hitherto refused to face. Thus, for someone to "take his head out of the sand" -- "to look the facts in the face", "to stop pretending" -- is also a choice. In fact it is a choice to believe that is a laudable and wise and honest one.

In that case, in my view, something we might call "choosing to believe" is not only possible, but honest, wise, desirable, and laudable.

In friendship,
Scruffy Kid

[rstrats]

Scruffy Kid,

re: “One useful place to start might be to consider the cases in which people clearly do choose to believe...”


And that is all I am asking. I would like to see someone demonstrate, in real time, their ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe something. I gave a suggestion in post #38 with regard to something that they might use for the demonstration. So far no one has complied.

[tt1106]

A number of folks on these boards seem to say that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. Since I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, and since I would really like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person, I wonder if someone who thinks that way might be able to share how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to make your lack of belief instantaneously change to belief?

What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Do you believe in Julius Caesar? What about the chemical makeup of water?
Belief is a choice made, based upon the evidence presented. For us (and I was an Athesit, so I did (actually God did) change my belief) we have observed the evidence and it was sufficient to believe. or at least to stop disbelieving.

[rstrats]

tt1106,

re: “Do you believe in Julius Caesar?”

I believe that Julius Caesar existed.


re: “What about the chemical makeup of water?”

I believe it is generally considered to be composed of hydrogen and oxygen.


re: “Belief is a choice made, based upon the evidence presented.”

If beliefs can be obtained by simply consciously CHOOSING to have them, then evidence is not necessary - prudent in some cases, perhaps - but not necessary.


re: “For us (and I was an Athesit, so I did (actually God did) change my belief)...”

So you’re saying that you didn’t consciously CHOOSE the belief. It was implanted in your brain by the supreme being.

[Xel'Naga]

tt1106,
If beliefs can be obtained by simply CHOOSING to have them, then evidence is not necessary - prudent in some cases, perhaps - but not necessary.

That's patently false. When presented with evidence for 'X' ('X' being nothing in specific) you choose either to regard or disregard it, to believe or not believe it. The presentation of evidence for 'X' plays an integral role in whether or not you're going to believe 'X'. If, when presented with 'X' you were asked merely to believe, it could very well be the lack of evidence for 'X' that causes your disbelief in 'X', whereas you might have chosen to believe in 'X' if only you had seen evidence presented for 'X'. Evidence is foundational to our beliefs, otherwise they may as well be blind, empty beliefs. If one doesn't know what they believe and why they believe it, then why are they holding that belief? So, I would say yes, evidence is necessary for beliefs.

In the end I choose to believe (or disbelieve) 'X', but not because I 'simply choose' to hold those beliefs, but because I considered 'X,' saw the evidence for 'X' and based upon that, believed in 'X'. Either way, I'm choosing to believe or I'm choosing not to believe, if you want to be such a deconstructionist.

[watchinginawe]

I would like to see someone demonstrate, in real time, their ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe something. I gave a suggestion in post #14 with regard to something that they might use for the demonstration. So far no one has complied.
...
What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true? I didn't see anything in post #14, but I did find the above in your original post.

I have used the following example before to answer this kind of question. Now I don't expect that it will satisfy you since you are already convinced that reading anything will not result in you to consciously change your mind on the subject. But on the hope that you will wake up tomorrow morning with a new belief on the topic, I offer the following.

For this example, I am going to examine that "last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another" and what allows it. My example is going to use the passing from a wrong belief (or immature or ignorant belief) to a right belief. Another way to look at it is passing from unbelief on a subject to belief.

What allows us to change beliefs begins with conscious contempaltion of our current belief. Perhaps we aren't at peace with our belief. Perhaps we are hearing new information which puts our belief in doubt or in crisis.

The process then moves to capitulation of the belief in doubt and the subsequent contemplation and new belief. Sometimes the process is simple and not complex. Binary if you will, meaning that a stated belief is directly opposed by a stated unbelief. Changing beliefs would be simply flipping the situation.

That process is called repentance. Repentance (in the thought being presented here) is coming to the conclusion or discovering one is wrong about what they believe is true and then believing the opposite is true. For example, I at one time believed that I was safer by not wearing a seat belt. When I had children I consciously decided to review the matter to see if my belief was true or well founded. I gathered materials on the subject and decided that I was wrong in my belief and practice of not wearing seat belts. I repented of that belief which resulted in believing that wearing a seat belt is safer; and ever since until now I always wear a seat belt (the result of my repentance and new belief).

Do you know that in spite of my new belief and consistent practice for all the days of my children that my daughter in her teen years decided when she went out with her boyfriend that she was safer by not wearing a seat belt? The ignorant belief of her boyfriend caused her to reconsider what she had been taught and she formed a new belief of her own and practiced accordingly. Only by commandment would she promise to wear her seat belt.

God Bless!

[rstrats]

Xel’Naga,

re: “That's patently false.“

I hope so. I would dearly love to believe that beliefs can be consciously CHOSEN.


re: “I choose to believe (or disbelieve) 'X', but not because I 'simply choose' to hold those beliefs, but because I considered 'X,' saw the evidence for 'X' and based upon that, believed in 'X'.”

But could you?


re: “...it could very well be the lack of evidence for 'X' that causes your disbelief in 'X', whereas you might have chosen to believe in 'X' if only you had seen evidence presented for 'X'.”

How would a person know when they had sufficient evidence with regard to “x”? And what would be the state of their mind at that moment with regard to the belief in question?

[rstrats]

watchinginawe,

re: “I didn’t see anything in post #14.”

I would be surprised if you did. For some completely mystical reason I typed 14 when it should have been 38.

re: “I have used the following example before to answer this kind of question. Now I don't expect that it will satisfy you since you are already convinced that reading anything will not result in you to consciously change your mind on the subject.”

I would hope that if you were to demonstrate, in real time, your stated ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe something as I requested in post #38 that it would cause me to believe that it can be done.

[Xel'Naga]

Xel’Naga,

re: “That's patently false.“

I hope so. I would dearly love to believe that beliefs can be consciously CHOSEN.

To phrase this a bit poorly, are you not choosing to believe otherwise?


re: “I choose to believe (or disbelieve) 'X', but not because I 'simply choose' to hold those beliefs, but because I considered 'X,' saw the evidence for 'X' and based upon that, believed in 'X'.”

But could you?

Could, would and have.


re: “...it could very well be the lack of evidence for 'X' that causes your disbelief in 'X', whereas you might have chosen to believe in 'X' if only you had seen evidence presented for 'X'.”

How would a person know when they had sufficient evidence with regard to “x”? And what would be the state of their mind at that moment with regard to the belief in question?

Would depend on the person; does the evidence for 'X' answer their questions in regard to 'X'? One must realize as well that not all questions may be answered, and not all questions are as pertinent as others.

[watchinginawe]

I would hope that if you were to demonstrate, in real time, your stated ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe something as I requested in post #38 that it would cause me to believe that it can be done.I think the example I gave in this thread shows a harder standard and more accurate process than post #38.

But I will give an example of #38, in real time. All aspects.

I have a friend that tells me that company XYZ is going to have a wonder drug approved by the FDA and that the stock of XYZ is going to increase.

I believe my friend and that the stock of company XYZ is going to increase.

I affirm that belief by buying stock in company XYZ.

I hear some talking head on TV say that rumors are circulating about XYZ that are nothing but lies.

I believe I have been scammed.

I affirm that belief by selling the stock in company XYZ.Perhaps you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your ability and technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. . If you can do that - which I hope you can - then I will see that it can be done. You can then explain how you did it. You can detail how you would have been able to say: “At the moment I believe that leprechauns do not exist. However, I am going to believe that they DO exist ,and --- poof --- I now believe - am convinced without a doubt - in their existence. How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief? Have you ever been snipe hunting?

God Bless!

[rstrats]

Xel'Naga,

re: “To phrase this a bit poorly, are you not choosing to believe otherwise?”

No. As I said, I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have.


re: “Could, would and have.”

Perhaps you can help me then. You can use leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?


re: “Would depend on the person; does the evidence for 'X' answer their questions in regard to 'X'? “

Yes. So as soon as they are satisfied with the evidence, what would be the state of their mind at that moment with regard to the belief in question?

[rstrats]

watchinginawe,

re: “But I will give an example of #38, in real time. All aspects.”

I didn’t ask for an example. What you gave was a hypothetical scenario. If you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things why won’t you comply with what I asked in post #38 and again in post #75?


re: “Have you ever been snipe hunting?”

No I haven’t. Any particular reason for asking?

[Xel'Naga]

Xel'Naga,

re: “To phrase this a bit poorly, are you not choosing to believe otherwise?”

No. As I said, I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have.

If you hold the belief in a negative, rather than a neutral, then you've chosen to believe it.


re: “Could, would and have.”

Perhaps you can help me then. You can use leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

There are good reasons to believe in God. There are no good reasons to believe in leprechauns. Stop being silly. And no, no one is asking you to believe in God without any sort of proof or substantiation.


re: “Would depend on the person; does the evidence for 'X' answer their questions in regard to 'X'? “

Yes. So as soon as they are satisfied with the evidence, what would be the state of their mind at that moment with regard to the belief in question?

I don't know, I'm not them.

[Gulah Papyrus]

I don't think someone chooses to believe as much as they choose not to believe. It's a process of sifting through all of the worldly distractions and clearing a path allowing His light, the truth of God, to shine through.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.(Proverbs 1:7)

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.(Romans 1:18-21)

[watchinginawe]

watchinginawe,

re: “But I will give an example of #38, in real time. All aspects.”

I didn’t ask for an example. What you gave was a hypothetical scenario. If you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things why won’t you comply with what I asked in post #38 and again in post #75?Ahhhhhh. Now I see what you are saying. You want me to "will" myself to believe something I don't believe. That is different than saying that belief is never a conscious process. I have given examples of how coming to believe something can be a conscious process. But that is a process, and not just a willful obedience of the mind to believe anything.

So, I agree with the thought that we can't just will ourselves to believe anything. Here, this is just for you. I hope it doesn't need explanation: http://www.videosift.com/video/How-many-lights-do-you-see-Captain-Great-Picard-Moment re: “Have you ever been snipe hunting?”

No I haven’t. Any particular reason for asking?It is an old camp trick in the US. Ha! Wiki has the info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snipe_hunt

I thought it close to the leprachaun challenge.

God Bless!

[Diggindeeper]

I don't think someone chooses to believe as much as they choose not to believe. It's a process of sifting through all of the worldly distractions and clearing a path allowing His light, the truth of God, to shine through.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.(Proverbs 1:7)

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.(Romans 1:18-21)

I really agree with the above post. As far as religious, or more specifically--Christian beliefs, or choosing to believe and become a Christian...I offer this:

John 3:17-19
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

So, we either believe that or we don't. No need to try to force ourself to believe it. Either we do, or we don't. Period.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

But...why do some just simply NOT believe this? Here's why:
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Some people just love darkness rather than light. Because to believe this would mean they must give up living and walking in darkness. And they LIKE the darkness.

[rstrats]

Xel'Naga,

re: “If you hold the belief in a negative, rather than a neutral, then you've chosen to believe it.”

That is incorrect. As I said, I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have. Do you think that I am lying to you? Why would I do that?


re: “ There are no good reasons to believe in leprechauns.”

How about because I asked you to? That should be enough reason.


re: “Stop being silly.”

How am I being silly? Are you saying that it is silly to ask you to demonstrate your stated ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things?


re: “I don't know, I'm not them. “

OK, let me change the question a bit. As soon as YOU are satisfied with the evidence, what would be the state of YOUR mind at that moment with regard to the belief in question?

[rstrats]

Gulah Papyrus,

re: “I don't think someone chooses to believe as much as they choose not to believe.”

In order for something to be considered a CHOICE there have to be at least 2 options from which to select. And each option has to be able to be selected. In the case of belief, there are 3 options: (1) Choose to believe that “x” exists or is true, (2) CHOOSE to believe that “x” doesn’t exist or isn’t true, or (3) CHOOSE to have no belief either way. Assuming that you believe that a supreme being exists, can you right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE option 2 or option 3?

[rstrats]

watchinginawe,

re: “Ahhhhhh. Now I see what you are saying. You want me to ‘will’ myself to believe something I don't believe.”

Yes, that is what “consciously CHOOSING to believe something” means.



re: “So, I agree with the thought that we can't just will ourselves to believe anything.”

You won’t be able to help me, then. I am hoping to hear from someone who thinks that they CAN consciously CHOOSE to believe things.


re: “Here, this is just for you. I hope it doesn't need explanation:”

I’m afraid that it does. I don’t see the applicability to this “discussion”.


re: “I thought it close to the leprachaun challenge.”

Again, I don’t see the applicability.

[watchinginawe]

watchinginawe,

re: “Ahhhhhh. Now I see what you are saying. You want me to ‘will’ myself to believe something I don't believe.”

Yes, that is what “consciously CHOOSING to believe something” means.



re: “So, I agree with the thought that we can't just will ourselves to believe anything.”

You won’t be able to help me, then. I am hoping to hear from someone who thinks that they CAN consciously CHOOSE to believe things. rstrats, you move the ball around a lot. I reviewed many of your posts to construct my answers to you. Your proposition was that forming a belief is not a conscious process, but rather a sub-conscious process. Then you liken that to choosing to believe in something like leprachauns when you already know they don't exist. That is not forming a belief consciously, and really has almost nothing to do with how people believe many things.

I have given you examples for you to consider which show you wrong about your belief that belief is not a conscious process. However, you are unrepentant. That isn't surprising. However, I will leave off this part of the discussion with this. When someone is shown that they are wrong and they remain in unbelief, THAT is a conscious process.

Matthew 21:31 ... Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
re: “Here, this is just for you. I hope it doesn't need explanation:”

I’m afraid that it does. I don’t see the applicability to this “discussion”. Insufficient information. I'll be glad to discuss it some with you, and maybe enjoy a laugh and some fellowship. But you have to give me some hint as to whether you are familiar with the program, or the specific episode, etc.re: “I thought it close to the leprachaun challenge.”

Again, I don’t see the applicability.The applicability is this. A belief in a non-existent animal and hunt is formed consciously and exploited.

God Bless!

[Xel'Naga]

Xel'Naga,

re: “If you hold the belief in a negative, rather than a neutral, then you've chosen to believe it.”

That is incorrect. As I said, I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have. Do you think that I am lying to you? Why would I do that?

Do I think you're lying? No, however, what I said is correct. To hold a negative disposition means moving from neutral to negative, which requires consideration of that thing you've become negative towards.


re: “ There are no good reasons to believe in leprechauns.”

How about because I asked you to? That should be enough reason.

It's a reason, it's not a good reason.


re: “I don't know, I'm not them. “

OK, let me change the question a bit. As soon as YOU are satisfied with the evidence, what would be the state of YOUR mind at that moment with regard to the belief in question?

I would either choose to believe or disbelieve based on the evidence.

[Diggindeeper]

I would either choose to believe or disbelieve based on the evidence.

If evidence CONVINCES, then you don't choose. You are convinced by the evidence and this convincing evidence alone gives us no choice.

Evidence (to me) forces us to throw away our choice in anything.

[Gulah Papyrus]

Gulah Papyrus,

re: “I don't think someone chooses to believe as much as they choose not to believe.”

In order for something to be considered a CHOICE there have to be at least 2 options from which to select. And each option has to be able to be selected. In the case of belief, there are 3 options: (1) Choose to believe that “x” exists or is true, (2) CHOOSE to believe that “x” doesn’t exist or isn’t true, or (3) CHOOSE to have no belief either way. Assuming that you believe that a supreme being exists, can you right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE option 2 or option 3?

Your choices are to either continue believing what you have always known is true, or to reject what you know is true and choose not to believe. The third choice is the same as the second...both reject what is known to be true.

[Perpetua]

Salvation is a human "choice" only in so far as the person desires that "choice." By nature, without God regenerating us and giving us a new heart, none of us will "choose" God, as the Bible makes clear enough. Before being saved, we were all dead (Ephesians 2); all of us like sheep have gone astray, none follows the Lord. A dead person (and the text is speaking of people spiritually dead to the things of God) does not have the capacity to choose or do anything to become undead. As Paul also said in 1 Corinithians, the natural man cannot perceive the spiritual things and they are foolishness to him; only when we have God's spirit in us can we perceive and understand the spiritual things. A similar example in the Bible is that you must be born again (John 3). We all know that, in our physical birth, we had no say in the matter, nor do we have any awareness of it -- birth is something done "to us" or "upon us" without our involvement -- and Jesus makes it clear that the same must happen for spiritual birth.

From the human perspective, at the point of our salvation, when we first believe on Christ, it appears as a choice that we made -- but the reason we "choose" is because God has first regenerated us so that we actually desire that choice. In all human choices, we often are presented with many different options, but the one we choose is always the one most to our liking. Consider the biblical story of David's son Absalom and his revolt against David. Two of David's counselors came to Absalom with advice for dealing with David and keeping control for Absalom. The first counselor, Ahithophel, had defected from David and actually gave excellent advice to Absalom. Then another man (Hushai), who was actually working to help David, came and suggested different advice. Absalom was free to choose either, but he chose the second person's advice. Read the text and see what happened. Ahithophel often said "I would" referring to what Ahithophel would do, and urged immediate action. Hushai appealed to Absalom's laziness -- take your time and gather forces together; you've only just arrived in town. Further, Hushai's words appealed to Absalom's ego, saying that Absalom should go out and lead all the people around him, etc., rather than Ahithophel's advice which had focused on getting a job done but not so pleasing to Absalom's ego.

For another example: a person who desires certain food tastes -- such as a desire for strawberry, and a strong dislike for chocolate -- will always pick the strawberry dessert, unless some outside force (God, changing the heart) comes and changes that person's "tastes."

[GreekAsianPanda]

Well, I wouldn't say that all belief is instantaneous. Some may be but not all. Of course, you can't believe and disbelieve at that same time, like you said, but what about when you're not sure? As in you neither believe nor disbelieve. Let's say there's an atheist. He is in total disbelief in the existence of God. Then he starts actually researching and finds that there's some evidence that God exists, but finds there is also evidence that God does not exist, so he's still not sure, but he now questions his unbelief therefore he is not in a state of disbelief anymore. Then slowly he finds more evidence in favor of the existence of God and evidence against the nonexistence of God. After awhile of this, he realizes that he really does believe now, and that it wasn't an instant, it was a gradual process. Of course, it's not like this with everybody, but it's just an example of the instantaneous vs. gradual thing. And it's probably not a good example, either lol.
Like many people, my belief took a long time. There was no moment when I suddenly believed in the existence of God; it was gradual.
Now about the original question...How can one choose to believe? I think choosing to believe or disbelieve is choosing to accept facts or not. Also, "choosing to believe" on this forum usually refers to Jesus, as in choosing to put your faith in him to save you from sin. You can choose to have faith in him or not. Faith isn't instant. Faith is trusting something, believing is accepting something as true.
These probably aren't very good answers but they're the best I could think of.
I hope I've helped :hug:

[rstrats]

Xel'Naga,

re: “To hold a negative disposition means moving from neutral to negative, which requires consideration of that thing you've become negative towards.”

How would you know when you’ve done enough considering?


re: “It's a reason, it's not a good reason. “

Good or not, if beliefs can be obtained by simply CHOOSING to have them you don’t need any reason. Just go ahead and do it.


re: “I would either choose to believe or disbelieve based on the evidence.”

But that’s not what I asked. I didn’t ask what you would do. I asked what your state of mind would be with regard to the belief in question.

[rstrats]

GreekAsianPanda ,

re: “Well, I wouldn't say that all belief is instantaneous... what about when you're not sure? “

As I said, it has to be. When you’re not sure, then you don’t believe - you are not convinced about the truth of a thing. You can’t be sure and not sure at the same time. There has to be an instant when the one state of mind changes to the other.


re: “ Faith isn't instant.”

It has to be. You can’t have faith in a thing and at the same time not have faith. Same as belief.

[rstrats]

Diggindeeper,

re: “If evidence CONVINCES, then you don't choose. You are convinced by the evidence and this convincing evidence alone gives us no choice.”

At last, someone who understands.

[rstrats]

Perpetua,

re: “For another example: a person who desires certain food tastes -- such as a desire for strawberry, and a strong dislike for chocolate -- will always pick the strawberry dessert”

But the person doesn’t have to. They COULD pick the chocolate even though they disliked it.

[rstrats]

Gulah Papyrus,

re: “Your choices are to either continue believing what you have always known is true, or to reject what you know is true and choose not to believe. The third choice is the same as the second...both reject what is known to be true.”

I’m afraid I don’t see your point.

[GreekAsianPanda]

Xel'Naga,

re: “If you hold the belief in a negative, rather than a neutral, then you've chosen to believe it.”

That is incorrect. As I said, I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have. Do you think that I am lying to you? Why would I do that?


re: “ There are no good reasons to believe in leprechauns.”

How about because I asked you to? That should be enough reason.


re: “Stop being silly.”

How am I being silly? Are you saying that it is silly to ask you to demonstrate your stated ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things?


re: “I don't know, I'm not them. “

OK, let me change the question a bit. As soon as YOU are satisfied with the evidence, what would be the state of YOUR mind at that moment with regard to the belief in question?

Do you think I was lying to you when I said my belief was gradual? Do you think others were lying when they said the same thing? I understand your logic, that you can't believe and disbelieve at the same time, but obviously that didn't happen to some of us here. We cannot say that there was a particular moment when we believed, as in it was not instantaneous. Do you think we're lying?
(No, I'm not saying that you're lying :))
Like I said before, consciously choosing to believe is like choosing to accept facts or not. Of course, some people don't consciously choose to believe or disbelieve, but some people do. I believe you when you say that you can't consciously choose. I assume you're one of those people who never denies facts. If you never deny facts, you won't choose to believe, you'll just believe that fact because it's a fact and it's true; you won't make an attempt to deny a cold hard fact, right? Some people are different. There might be a fact but they choose to deny it. Therefore, they consciously choose to disbelieve it. Does that make sense? Probably not. I'm bad a writing these things. But I hope you understand what I'm saying.
Have a nice day! :hug:

[Brother Mark]

It had to be. You can’t believe that something isn’t true AND at the same time believe that it is. There has to be an instant when the one state of mind is changed to the other. I’m trying to learn the technique for doing that.

Actually, you can believe something is true and not true at the same time. It doesn't mean that is sound thinking, but it is certainly possible.

[Brother Mark]

A number of folks on these boards seem to say that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. Since I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, and since I would really like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person, I wonder if someone who thinks that way might be able to share how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to make your lack of belief instantaneously change to belief?

Question... does your inability to choose mean others cannot? If I can't run a 4 minute mile, does that therefor mean that it can't be done?

[Brother Mark]

Diggindeeper,

re: “If evidence CONVINCES, then you don't choose. You are convinced by the evidence and this convincing evidence alone gives us no choice.”

At last, someone who understands.

What do you make of this parable?


Matt 21:33-46

33 "Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey. 34 "When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce. 35 "The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third. 36 "Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them. 37 "But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 38 "But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' 39 "They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 "Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?" 41 They said to Him, "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons."

42 Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures,

'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;
THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,
AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?

43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. 44 "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."

45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. 46 When they sought to seize Him, they feared the people, because they considered Him to be a prophet.
NASU

They knew Jesus was the son and the heir, for that reason they killed him. It's not that they didn't believe in who Jesus was. It's that they rejected him because they wanted it for themselves and did not want to submit.

Why they didn't submit...

John 11:47-49

47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, "What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs. 48 "If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation."
NASU

They knew that many would follow him if they saw what the pharisees were seeing. They didn't want to lose their place.

Finally,

Luke 7:30
30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
NASU

The pharisees simply rejected what God offered to them. They knew who Jesus was and determined to kill him so they could keep their place instead of submitting. It wasn't so much that the facts made the decision for them, they knew. They just didn't like the offer they received because they wanted to be in complete control.

[Xel'Naga]

Xel'Naga,

re: “To hold a negative disposition means moving from neutral to negative, which requires consideration of that thing you've become negative towards.”

How would you know when you’ve done enough considering?

When you feel you've done enough.


re: “It's a reason, it's not a good reason. “

Good or not, if beliefs can be obtained by simply CHOOSING to have them you don’t need any reason. Just go ahead and do it.

I refer you back to post #69.


re: “I would either choose to believe or disbelieve based on the evidence.”

But that’s not what I asked. I didn’t ask what you would do. I asked what your state of mind would be with regard to the belief in question.

My state of mind would be such that I would either choose to believe or disbelieve based on the evidence.

[rstrats]

GreekAsianPanda,

re: “Do you think I was lying to you when I said my belief was gradual?”

No, I don’t. I think that there indeed has been a period of time between when you first contemplated an issue and when you obtained a belief with regard to the issue. But when the belief was finally engendered it had to happen in an instant because you can’t believe that something doesn’t exist and at the same time believe that the same something does exist. There has to be a moment when the one state of mind is changed to the other.


re: “Do you think others were lying when they said the same thing?”

No, I don’t.


re: “We cannot say that there was a particular moment when we believed...”

Perhaps not. I’m sure that there are times, when you think back, that you can’t pinpoint a specific moment when you realized that you had a new belief about a thing.


re: “Of course, some people don't consciously choose to believe or disbelieve, but some people do.”

Can you?


re: “I assume you're one of those people who never denies facts. If you never deny facts, you won't choose to believe, you'll just believe that fact because it's a fact and it's true; you won't make an attempt to deny a cold hard fact, right?

It would be a fruitless exercise. If I or anyone else believes that something is a fact, how can we legitimately deny that it is a fact?

[rstrats]

Brother Mark

re: “Actually, you can believe something is true and not true at the same time.”

I can’t conceive of any way that that could be possible. Can you give an example?


re: “... does your inability to choose mean others cannot?”

I hope not.


re: “If I can't run a 4 minute mile, does that therefor mean that it can't be done?”

No.


re: “What do you make of this parable? Matt 21:33-46"

Nothing in as far as it relates to being able to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.

[Gypsy]

If I or anyone else believes that something is a fact, how can we legitimately deny that it is a fact?You've obviously never been married. :-)

What about the concept of "fake it til you make it"? Is that not a conscious process of deciding to change your belief in something? When I was a kid, I didn't like the taste of coffee (I believed that I didn't like coffee) but I wanted to be like my Pa so I pretended to like it. Now I can't imagine a morning without it. I believe I love it! Isn't that a decision to force myself to change a belief? I don't remember there being a specific point where I instantly changed from not liking to liking coffee. No one magic day that I said "hey, this doesn't taste like boiled dirt today, in fact it's great", it was more like a gradual accustmization (is that even a word? my spell checker doesn't think so) to it. If I really wanted to believe in leprechauns, I suppose I could make myself, folks have convinced themselves of a lot nuttier, I'd move someplace where everybody believes in leprechauns, go on some leprechaun hunts, surround myself with leprechaun paraphernalia. But there is nothing in my heart that makes me want to believe in them. So I don't or at least I remain leprechaunostic, which means I don't believe that there is convincing evidence either way.

I'm a fairly simple guy. I suppose that I could make myself believe anything provided I wanted to believe in it. Now I suppose you will ask me if I can consciously decide to change what I want to believe in. Well sure, but I'd have to believe in it first. Wait I'm getting dizzy - I can't believe unless I want in my heart to believe and and can't change what I want in my heart to believe unless I can make myself believe it's believable. Crazy, like a huge painted pony ride. My heart, my brain, my beliefs - round and round up and down. I'll tell you what's missing, is the thing that can change what's in my heart and the only thing that I've ever know that can do that is love. An infant believes that it is safe with it's Mama because it can feel her love. Bigots change their beliefs about the people they hate irrationally because someone has shown them love. I came to believe in Jesus, because I could feel His love and it's the greatest love I've ever felt. For me that love came quickly - like a fire-hose opening up inside me, but for others it comes more slowly - drip by drip, like the way I learned to drink coffee. It's there none the same and it's just as great for all of us, you as much as me as much as anyone on this board, all we have to do is choose to feel it.

[GreekAsianPanda]

GreekAsianPanda,

re: “Do you think I was lying to you when I said my belief was gradual?”

No, I don’t. I think that there indeed has been a period of time between when you first contemplated an issue and when you obtained a belief with regard to the issue. But when the belief was finally engendered it had to happen in an instant because you can’t believe that something doesn’t exist and at the same time believe that the same something does exist. There has to be a moment when the one state of mind is changed to the other.


re: “Do you think others were lying when they said the same thing?”

No, I don’t.


re: “We cannot say that there was a particular moment when we believed...”

Perhaps not. I’m sure that there are times, when you think back, that you can’t pinpoint a specific moment when you realized that you had a new belief about a thing.


re: “Of course, some people don't consciously choose to believe or disbelieve, but some people do.”

Can you?


re: “I assume you're one of those people who never denies facts. If you never deny facts, you won't choose to believe, you'll just believe that fact because it's a fact and it's true; you won't make an attempt to deny a cold hard fact, right?

It would be a fruitless exercise. If I or anyone else believes that something is a fact, how can we legitimately deny that it is a fact?

Sorry it took me such a long time to reply; I've been gone for a week.
I'm gonna color-coat everything so you know which parts my replies are to, ok?
Hm...Ok, that makes sense. So I guess you're right; there does have to be a moment. It's just that sometimes we don't know when that moment is. Sorry I tried to convince you otherwise.
Well, it used to be that way for me. If I believed something strongly and found that there was much evidence that contradicted it, I wouldn't accept it, thus conciously choosing to disbelieve it. But I'm not like that anymore, luckily :)
You're correct; it would be a fruitless exercise. But some people deny facts. Example: The earth is a sphere. Ever heard of the Flat Earth Society? They deny the photographs from outerspace taken of the earth (which clearly indicate that the earth is a sphere), the fact that there couldn't be night and day if the earth was flat (which would also lead them to deny heliocentrism), that there couldn't be seasons if the earth was flat, and that no one has discovered the edges of the earth. They choose to deny a cold, hard fact.
Have a nice day =)

[Brother Mark]

Brother Mark

re: “Actually, you can believe something is true and not true at the same time.”

I can’t conceive of any way that that could be possible. Can you give an example?

Sure. In my own life, when I was lost, I began to believe I would die an go to hell because I didn't believe Jesus was God. Now, both of those can't be true. I didn't believe Jesus was God. And I believed I would die and go to hell for it. Not rational, but it certainly happened to me.

The enemy gets people to make non-rational decisions all the time.

re: “What do you make of this parable? Matt 21:33-46"

Nothing in as far as it relates to being able to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.

Look at it again. Jesus pretty much said "you know who I am and your going to kill me for it." That parable said the keepers of the vineyard knew who the son was and they killed the son so that they could have the vineyard. So all the evidence did not convince the religious leaders to change their mind concerning Jesus. It just convinced them to kill him.

John 11:47-49

47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, "What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs. 48 "If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation."
NASU

When they discovered and knew who he was, they decided they wanted what was rightfully Christ's. They thought they could kill God's son and take his vineyard for themselves.

What's my point? That evidence does not always lead to a changed mind.

Grace and peace,

Mark

[rstrats]

GreekAsianPanda,

re: “I'm gonna color-coat everything so you know which parts my replies are to, ok?”

I don’t know what you mean, but guess it will probably be ok with me.


re: “Well, it used to be that way for me. If I believed something strongly and found that there was much evidence that contradicted it, I wouldn't accept it, thus conciously choosing to disbelieve it.”

You will disagree, of course; but I would say that you just didn’t have the feeling that the evidence was sufficient to negate your position. You didn’t consciously CHOOSE to believe it wasn’t true, because that was your default position to begin with.


re: “Ever heard of the Flat Earth Society?...They choose to deny a cold, hard fact.”

Yes, but they don’t recognize it as a “cold, hard fact”. If they did, it would be impossible to think otherwise.

[Jabba]

Sorry, I only read the first part of your letter and none of the replies you had so far. But consider this...
Christianity is NOT a choice, its compulsary!
You can not hope to go to heaven, you have to believe you are going to heaven. How do you do that?
Well, it might be simpler than you thought.
Just believe.
Simple, hey?
But let me point you in the right direction, I'm not going to boar you with complicated scriptures, but do read this...
Faith is the answer...Romans 4:16
Where do you get the 'faith'?
Romans 10:17
By hearing the message...
Where do we hear the message?
In church!
One thing is worth mentioning here...if your church don't change you, change your church!
Be blessed...and have faith!:pp

[Desperaux]

I haven't read the thread apart from the OP. I will go back and look after I post here.

I am one of those who teach that we must choose to believe, and that is after the revelation of the cross has been established in us. Once we accept Jesus Christ, having the knowledge of who He is, we must learn that we must choose to believe what He says, against what the enemy tells us, and against how we humanly feel.

This comes with discipleship, and growth.

Think of David, who made it a habit to hearken back to the things that God did for him in the past which spurred him on to belief in his present. As we discover and recognize the hand of God in our lives, it becomes easier and easier to believe the entire Word of God as revealed to us. We find it increasingly easy to step out in faith, as given by God.

"For the bible tells me so..."

[rstrats]

Brother Mark,

re: “Sure. In my own life, when I was lost, I began to believe I would die an go to hell because I didn't believe Jesus was God. Now, both of those can't be true.”

Not an appropriate example. Even though they may be irrational, those are different beliefs about different things.




re: “Look at it again [Matt 21:33-46].”

I’m sorry, but I just don’t see how that passage shows an ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.



re: “What's my point? That evidence does not always lead to a changed mind.”

I’ve never said otherwise.

[rstrats]

Desperaux,

re: “I am one of those who teach that we must choose to believe...”


Then I would ask of you what I have asked several others here - although unsuccessfully, so far - what is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true? Perhaps you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

[Desperaux]

No one forces anyone to believe. It is a revelation given to us by God concerning the cross of Christ. It is our decision to follow that revelation or deny it.

God has given us sovereignty over our choices.

[Gypsy]

what is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true? The human mind is a fickle thing. I believe that it can be changed, but there will always be a lag time between wanting to believe something (the belief having value to you) and convicting the belief. I think psychologists call that cognitive dissonance. I think those same psychologists say that those heuristics (beliefs with which we try to predict the world around us) are regularly changed through this process of cognitive dissonance, but the value of those predictions need to be reevaluated. I believe I want a cheeseburger right now, but I just talked to my wife, who thinks I'm getting a little chubby. It's important for me to be attractive to my wife, so I choose to not have a cheeseburger. I have some money. I can get one if I want it, but I'm not getting one, so I must not want one, or at least not want one that badly. I choose to change what I want and my belief about what is important to me at this instant. Likewise with leprechauns, my mind is a weak and fickle thing and I'm sure that I could convince myself of their existence, should I want to, but I don't want to.

This of course is respecting belief, which is something different than faith. Beliefs come from this squishy little thing that I keep inside of this coconut ear holder on top my shoulders. They are wrong sometimes - often times. Faith is given by God. It's never led me astray.

[rstrats]

Desperaux,

re: “No one forces anyone to believe. It is a revelation given to us by God...”

Why isn’t that a contradictory statement?

[rstrats]

Gypsy,

re: “Likewise with leprechauns, my mind is a weak and fickle thing and I'm sure that I could convince myself of their existence, should I want to, but I don't want to.”

Can you consciously CHOOSE to want to do something?

[Desperaux]

Desperaux,

re: “No one forces anyone to believe. It is a revelation given to us by God...”

Why isn’t that a contradictory statement?


People all over the world are given a revelation of Jesus Christ, yet turn away from it. It is a choice to follow after Him, convinced that He is who He says He is.

Jesus simply asks us as He did those fishermen, "Come, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men"---we can say no.

[Gypsy]

Gypsy,

re: “Likewise with leprechauns, my mind is a weak and fickle thing and I'm sure that I could convince myself of their existence, should I want to, but I don't want to.”

Can you consciously CHOOSE to want to do something?I suppose it depends on the time frame you give me and access to outside stimuli. It sounds like your asking if, in a vacuum and instantaneously, can you change a belief you hold about something? Right? I suppose it depends on how dearly I hold that belief. I'm not so intellectual as to say that my beliefs exist independently of my affect. Many or most of the beliefs that I have are connected to strong emotional motivators. To change the belief would be to change it's value to me beyond the upper or lower limit of those thresholds. Could I do it in a vacuum? I guess, by reevaluating the schemas I use to interpret the world around me and asking myself how important they are to me - Hey why do I want a cheeseburger? I just ate an hour ago. Yeah, I guess that's pretty dumb. I suppose I could do it.

But outside of that vacuum, where we live, folks make changes to their beliefs all the time - in response to love. The bigot, who's life is saved by a black man. The drug addict/prostitute/etc. who finds the strength to rise above their condition in response to the kindness of strangers. The thief on the cross who felt the love of God through Jesus. Love can change your heart, which in turn can change your mind. I know it sounds sappy to an intellectual guy like you, but it's how it works is all.

I pray that you will come to know that love.