Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christ and the Gospel

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Originally Posted by doug3

Thank you all again for your input. Since this discussion, I have been weighing these issues and The Lord has given me a much better understanding of why they are so evil and dangerous. Someone very close and dear to me is involved with them and I had been allowing my judgement to be clouded. I now have more experience of the JWs in the USA: they are indeed aggressive and pushy. They twist the scriptures taking captive people who do not realise why their teaching is so wrong.

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I had a couple of them come to my door the other day. They claimed to want to correct some misconceptions about their religion. They stated that they were Christians and that Jesus was their Saviour. When I asked them if they believed that Jesus was Jehovah God incarnate they emphatically said no. They then took their NWT and beat a hasty retreat.

One can quickly separate the wheat from the chaff when you discuss who Jesus Christ really is.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

My father's favorite trick was to invite them in, then go get his Greek New Testament, turn it to John 1, turn it upside down, and then hand it to them and ask them to explain it to him.

They now have their own Greek NT to counter that. The only way to get around it is to ask them about what manuscript family it comes from. They translated their English "bible" into Greek. It has NO history what-so-ever.;)

First off, the only way to get accurate info about JWs is to read it from watchtower.org website. for example if i wanted info about judaisim, i would not consult a catholic website, with info about Jews.

So what else are we conflicted on ?

No JW ever told you not to accept a blood transfusion ! Ive been JW my whole life , and nobody ever told me that. You may take whatever you want, as can i, but if you want to know the bibles view, and how God feels about the use of blood, you have to consider what the bible says.

If the bible says nothing on the subject, thats one thing, but IF the bible speaks against it, dont you agree that it would be important to consult it JUST IN CASE YOU MIGHT BE OFFENDING GOD !?

- 1st off, in the hebrew scriptures Gods people NEVER ate any kind of blood. God OUTLINED that the blood was to be poured out. Only pagan nations ate animals ALONG WITH ITS BLOOD.

Gen 9 says...

3Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. 4But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

lev 17 :11 12

10And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people. 11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. 12Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood. 13And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust.

Even after the old law passed away, Jesus followers restated the rule, which indicated that Gods view had not changed !

acts 15: 28,29

28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled (not bled), and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

consumption of blood is as serious as fornication. Thats why they are catergorized together.

Because BLOOD is considered sacred, and represents life, God placed STRICT RULES ABOUT IT.

Eph 1:7

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

So its untrue, to say that JWs made up this rule. THE BIBLE MADE THIS RULE, not us !

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Originally Posted by doug3

If that interpretation of these verses is correct, why does the Apostle Paul not include the requirement of believing Jesus to be I AM (YHWH) into his definition in Romans 10:9.10 of what it takes to be saved:

“9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” (Ro 10:9-10 AV-KJV 1769)

Are there any other verses that clearly state that a person must believe Jesus Christ is I AM (YHWH) to gain salvation?

Yes, there is always hope.

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Heres why Jehovah, and Jesus are seprate people.

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (if this scripture proves the trinity, WHY DOES VS 18 SAY...

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Now JWs DID NOT MAKE THIS UP, as you can see the bible itself speaks of them as 2 seprate people.

- Clearly God cant Sit at his own bosom position. Can he ?
- No man has SEEN GOD AT ANYTIME. Did people see jesus ?
- If the trinity is TRUE, the bible Contradicted itself here !

consider this too...

- When Jesus was baptised WHO SPOKE FROM HEAVEN ?
- All 3 were present, but are clearly sepreate
- who did Jesus pray to ?
- Whos will did Christ speak of.(not my will but yours)
- Christ died, can GOD DIE ?
- Who ressurected CHRIST ?
- Did Jesus allow anyone to worship him ?
- Why do you call me good ? theres only 1 that is good (not me but God)

Can you really continue to say God and Christ ARE THE SAME PERSON, looking honestly at the evidence in the bible ?
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Originally Posted by X-Rez

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (if this scripture proves the trinity,

Can you really continue to say God and Christ ARE THE SAME PERSON, looking honestly at the evidence in the bible ?
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Actually, this verse proves the deity of Christ, as the Son of God (as well as the Trinity)

As for Christ and the Father as the same person, let me take you to John, Chapter 10, Verse 30:

"I and the Father are one.”

If that isn't clear enough, let me take you to John, Chapter 14, Verse(s) 9-11:

"Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?
Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?
The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves."
These verses verify in Christ's own words, that He is God.

I leave you with Colossians 1:15:

"Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation."

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Originally Posted by th1bill

When I was 10 years old they were very proud that they were not Christian.

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Actually, they do consider themselves Christians. In fact, they view themselves as "true Christians" and the rest of us are living in "Christendom," which is a term they use as a putdown. They see all others who call themselves Christians as practicing a faith that's been corrupted and counterfeited by Satan and we're all deceived and don't even know it. I used to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I didn't do the door to door thing as often as they'd wanted me to so I never was allowed to be baptized by them. Looking back on it, I'm glad about it. Not that I couldn't be redeemed if I had, but it's personally nice to know I wasn't baptized. :2cents:

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Originally Posted by doug3

Thank you all again for your input. Since this discussion, I have been weighing these issues and The Lord has given me a much better understanding of why they are so evil and dangerous. Someone very close and dear to me is involved with them and I had been allowing my judgement to be clouded. I now have more experience of the JWs in the USA: they are indeed aggressive and pushy. They twist the scriptures taking captive people who do not realise why their teaching is so wrong.

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Did you know that the bible said gifts such as prophecy, would pass away after they served their purpose, in the apostles days ?:hmm:

1 cor 13 says...

8The love doth never fail; and whether [there be] prophecies, they shall become useless; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall become useless;

These gifts or powers had a specific purpose in bible times. After that time period passed, those gifts were to pass as well. Christ said that his followers would be identified another way...

34`A new commandment I give to you, that ye love one another; according as I did love you, that ye also love one another; :amen:

35in this shall all know that ye are my disciples, if ye may have love one to another.'

This is how Christ followers were to be identified, since the gifts were to pass away

So who gave you that dream, or vision, or prophecy NOT GOD !

I know of no other cult that has had as many FALSE PROPHECIES printed and distributed as the Watchtower/Awake.

I know of no other cult that has changed their doctrines and printed and distributed these changes in doctrines as the Watchtower/Awake.

No other real Christian group says that Christ has already returned. In 1914.

No other real Christian group says that Christ did not rise from the dead.

They claim now to be Christians, but they are not 'born again'! (In years gone by they denied even being 'Christians'!)

They serve a different Jesus, one that has been made, printed and distributed by the Watchtower/Awake.

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Originally Posted by doug3

There is a lot wrong with the Watchtower Organization, as is well documented in these forums and in numerous testimonies, books and web sites. I would be among the first to say this, as I have made plain in posts in various threads, which is why I stopped associating with my local congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses at the beginning of 2006 after about 18 months of fellowshipping with them. However, the claim made by many that they deny Christ and the Gospel is just not correct.

If you speak to any individual Jehovah’s Witness about their faith you will find that they recognize Jesus Christ as the Son of the Living God (Mat 16:16, Joh 6.69), that He died for our sins so that we could have fellowship with God through Him leading to eternal life (Joh 3:16; Rom 5:1; 1Tim 2:5) and that Jesus Christ is Head of the Church (Eph 5.23; Col 1.18; Col 2:19). They will recognize the importance of personal prayer and a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. They will probably differ with you (and me) on just about everything else that the bible says, but they recognize these fundamentals which are the very basis of our faith.

For me that is enough to consider them as Christian brothers and sisters (who are clearly in need of guidance).

“For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.” (Rom 10:2 AV-KJV 1769)

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What is it that supposedly differed from the bible ?

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Originally Posted by X-Rez

Heres why Jehovah, and Jesus are seprate people.<br>
<br>
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (if this scripture proves the trinity, WHY DOES VS 18 SAY...<br>
<br>
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

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<br>
<br>
You don't understand what John is saying. He cannot be defining "seeing" in the shallow way you are. Let's take these situations for example:<br>
<br>
<strong> Gn 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: <u>for I have seen God face to face</u>, and my life is preserved.<br>
<br>
Jdg 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, <u>because we have seen God</u>.<br>
<br>
Ex 33:11 <u>And the LORD (YHVH)spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend</u>. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.<br>
<br>
Num 14:14 And they will tell [it] to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, <u>that thou LORD(YHVH) art seen face to face</u>, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and [that] thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.</strong><br>
<br>
<br>

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Now JWs DID NOT MAKE THIS UP, as you can see the bible itself speaks of them as 2 seprate people.

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<br>
<br>
We are well aware that Jesus and the Father are two separate persons and yet they are both YHVH. Jesus is YHVH in the flesh.<br>
<br>

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- Clearly God cant Sit at his own bosom position. Can he ?

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No one has said that he can<br>
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No man has SEEN GOD AT ANYTIME. Did people see jesus ?

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<br>
Yes and people have also seen YHVH face to face as I have proven from scripture...note we did NOT make that up,it is in the original Hebrew texts. This means that John's definition of "seeing God" does not align with the error that the WatchTower teaches.<br>
- If the trinity is TRUE, the bible Contradicted itself here !<br>
<br>

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consider this too...<br>
<br>
- When Jesus was baptised WHO SPOKE FROM HEAVEN ?<br>
- All 3 were present, but are clearly sepreate

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<br>
<br>
Yes they were and it is a prime example of the Divine Trinity all being involved in the redeemption of man<br>
<br>

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- who did Jesus pray to ?

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<br>
<br>
He prayed to the Father of course. When he left heaven and the Glory that he had with the Father before the world began he underwent the process of "kenosis" to empty himslef of his divine power so that he might walk as we should walk. All of the works that he did were not done by his own divine power but by the power of the Holy Spirit. That same power is available to us today.<br>
<strong>Jn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.</strong><br>
<br>

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- Whos will did Christ speak of.(not my will but yours)<br>
- Christ died, can GOD DIE ?<br>
- Who ressurected CHRIST ?

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<br>
<br>
These questions show your misunderstanding of what Jesus actually did when he emptied himself to become a man. He was fully human as well as fully God. As a man he prayed to the Father and denied his own will for the will of the Father...just as we must do.<br>

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- Did Jesus allow anyone to worship him ?

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<br>
<br>
Yes he did,in several places.<br>
<br>
<strong>AV Mt 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.<br>
<br>
AV Mt 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found [him], bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.<br>
<br>
AV Hb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.<br>
<br>
AV Mt 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.<br>
<br>
AV Mt 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.<br>
<br>
AV Mt 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.<br>
<br>
AV Mt 9:18 . While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.<br>
<br>
AV Mt 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.<br>
<br>
AV Mt 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.<br>
<br>
AV Mt 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.<br>
<br>
AV Mk 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,</strong><br>
<br>
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Why do you call me good ? theres only 1 that is good (not me but God)

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<br>
<br>
He didn't say "Not me" that is something the watchtower added. He was asking the questions like this "Why are you calling me "good" if you do not believe I am the Messiah come in the flesh?"<br>
<br>

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Can you really continue to say God and Christ ARE THE SAME PERSON, looking honestly at the evidence in the bible ?<br>
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<br>
<br>
Can you really continue to deny that Jesus is God manifested in the flesh by looking honestly at the evidence in the bible?

Don't ask me what happened to the formatting in my last post. I blame it on satan desiring to keep you from the light.

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Originally Posted by shepherdsword

<br>
<br>
You don't understand what John is saying. He cannot be defining "seeing" in the shallow way you are. Let's take these situations for example:<br>
<br>
<strong> Gn 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: <u>for I have seen God face to face</u>, and my life is preserved.<br>
<br>
Jdg 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, <u>because we have seen God</u>.<br>
<br>
Ex 33:11 <u>And the LORD (YHVH)spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend</u>. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.<br>
<br>
Num 14:14 And they will tell [it] to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, <u>that thou LORD(YHVH) art seen face to face</u>, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and [that] thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.</strong><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
We are well aware that Jesus and the Father are two separate persons and yet they are both YHVH. Jesus is YHVH in the flesh.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
No one has said that he can<br>
- <br>
<br>
Yes and people have also seen YHVH face to face as I have proven from scripture...note we did NOT make that up,it is in the original Hebrew texts. This means that John's definition of "seeing God" does not align with the error that the WatchTower teaches.<br>
- If the trinity is TRUE, the bible Contradicted itself here !<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Yes they were and it is a prime example of the Divine Trinity all being involved in the redeemption of man<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
He prayed to the Father of course. When he left heaven and the Glory that he had with the Father before the world began he underwent the process of "kenosis" to empty himslef of his divine power so that he might walk as we should walk. All of the works that he did were not done by his own divine power but by the power of the Holy Spirit. That same power is available to us today.<br>
<strong>Jn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.</strong><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
These questions show your misunderstanding of what Jesus actually did when he emptied himself to become a man. He was fully human as well as fully God. As a man he prayed to the Father and denied his own will for the will of the Father...just as we must do.<br>
<br>
<br>
Yes he did,in several places.<br>
<br>
<strong>AV Mt 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.<br>
<br>
AV Mt 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found [him], bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.<br>
<br>
AV Hb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.<br>
<br>
AV Mt 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.<br>
<br>
AV Mt 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.<br>
<br>
AV Mt 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.<br>
<br>
AV Mt 9:18 . While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.<br>
<br>
AV Mt 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.<br>
<br>
AV Mt 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.<br>
<br>
AV Mt 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.<br>
<br>
AV Mk 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,</strong><br>
<br>
- <br>
<br>
He didn't say "Not me" that is something the watchtower added. He was asking the questions like this "Why are you calling me "good" if you do not believe I am the Messiah come in the flesh?"<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Can you really continue to deny that Jesus is God manifested in the flesh by looking honestly at the evidence in the bible?

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Im not gonna resort to insults with you. I will just ask you this...

Gn 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: <u>for I have seen God face to face</u>, and my life is preserved.<br>

When somthing was named in bible times, was it literal or figuratively named ?

ABIEL אֲבִיאֵל m Biblical
Means "God is my father" in Hebrew.

ABIJAH אֲבִיָה m & f Biblical
Means "my father is YAHWEH" in Hebrew

DELAIAH דְּלָיָהוּ m Biblical
Means "YAHWEH has drawn" in Hebrew.

Are these literal or figurative ?

Remember im not the 1 one who made up the rule that no one can see God...

(Exodus 33:20) – “But He [God] said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live !"
(John 1:18) – “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
(John 5:37) – “"And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.”
(John 6:46) - "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.”

(1 Tim. 6:15-16) – “He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.”

So If someone has seen god the bible CONTRADICTED ITSELF. So which is it ? Are you wrong, or did the bible lie ?