Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
keyzer soze
Gadgeteer, let me try to ask it again.
TRUE or FALSE: God knows the number of souls who will be saved to heaven and remain lost to hell BEFORE creation. That is to say before God created any being who could choose anything He knew the headcount of heaven and the headcount of hell.
TRUE or FALSE: God is not in control over who is saved and who is lost, that final number is totally an act of man's free-will and God can not change it. God can only call, the results will be of man's choice.
I have simplified this down to TRUE or FALSE, could you please answer them for me? Thanks
Hi KS. I've been following along a little. I would like to answer your questions.
1. True.
2. False.
But I am not saying 2 is false in the sense that a reformed person might think it's false. For instance, I happen to think there are some that are elected and created specifically for a time and place. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb. Jeremiah was created for a specific task and God speaks about that.
However, where I think the reformed folks take it too far is that they say that some CANNOT believe. This is where I disagree whole heartedly with them. Sodom had the ability to repent and believe. He said if Sodom had seen the works that Jesus did in Israel, they would have repented. So they had the ability.
That's where I think the reformers miss it. They have to redefine "world" and "love" in places to make it all fit. For God so loved the world means he loved the elect. That he died for our sins and for the sins of the world fits fine with me. But world becomes elect with the reformers.
So while I do think some are saved at birth, i.e. John the Baptist, I don't think that excludes others from believing. Nor does it exclude the ability of man to believe.
Free will is not really the debate. The debate is, can a man believe and repent when God draws him or not? That's it. Oh, we flesh it out some, but it really boils down to can man believe when God calls him or not? The Calvinist say only the chosen man can believe. I don't think that is scriptural. Sodom could have believed but they did not!
Well, I give you this verse.
Luke 7:30
30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
NASU
God purposed something for the lawyers and pharisees but they rejected it! Here's the word in the Greek.
NT:1012
NT:1012 boule (boo-lay'); from NT:1014; volition, i.e. (objectively) advice, or (by implication) purpose:
KJV - advise, counsel, will.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
The root word is
NT:1014
NT:1014 boulomai (boo'-lom-ahee); middle voice of a primary verb.; to "will," i.e. (reflexively) be willing:
KJV - be disposed, minded, intend, list, (be, of own) will (-ing).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Those guys rejected the purpose and will of God concerning their souls.
Can God and does he override man's will? Certainly. Does he do so all the time, certainly not!
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
If we are saved we are told this happens:
Eph 4:22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, 10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him— 11 a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.
My question is, if you believe you can be "saved" and then turn away and get lost again, would this be the passage that describes the process above but in reverse?
Missing Verse: Being that you have decided to turn back away from God and become lost again, take off your new self because Christ has departed from within you and put back on your old self and return to your evil ways.
Then my question would be if you had another change of heart, so you have gone from Lost - Saved - Lost - to wanting to be saved again
New Verse: Put back on what was formerly known as "new self" that you had on prior to returning to your "old self", because Jesus is back, and you are made new... again.
This might come across as making fun but I am really not trying to. Or perhaps I am mistaken and one can only be saved once and hence if you go Lost - Saved - Lost - Can't be saved again is the correct theology...
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brother Mark
Hi KS. I've been following along a little. I would like to answer your questions.
1. True.
2. False.
But I am not saying 2 is false in the sense that a reformed person might think it's false. For instance, I happen to think there are some that are elected and created specifically for a time and place. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb. Jeremiah was created for a specific task and God speaks about that.
Mark, thanks for popping in and responding, you answer these exactly how I would. I believe the crux of the matter is in these 2 answers, after that we can speculate all we want. But the fact of the matter is that:
1) God is sovereign and His plan/will is being carried out and included in this will is the number who will be saved and consequently, the number who will not be saved. Since God knows all this BEFORE any "free-will" ever takes place, however we want to rationalize it the things that come to be are in His sovereign will because He could have changed His plan if He wanted to...
2) God is in control of who receives Him and who is not. That is not to say that a single person who wants to receive Christ wont, it is to say that God knows who will seek Him and who wont.
I totally agree with what you are saying about taking things too far, but the strange thing to me is that I have never heard someone make the arguments that many claim are made by Calvinists or Reformists anywhere. That is not to say that there aren't extremes, there always are, but I think far too much of the extremist's view point gets credited to the reformed Christian.
Personally, I am oh so thankful that God is in control and man's free-will is NOT! Amen to that!
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
keyzer soze
Please answer my questions above.
I already responded to that post and have nothing more to add to what I already said. For whatever reason you have come to the conclusion that if God knew what would happen before it happened then somehow that means it was His will for it to happen. That simply does not make any sense. It might be His will to allow it to happen but that doesn't mean it was His desire for it to happen in the first place. His will and His desires are not the same thing but you don't seem to understand the difference between His will and His desires. No one can resist His will but anyone can resist His desires. It is His desire for everyone to be saved and spend eternity with Him (1 Tim 2:3-6) and it was His will to do something about His desire by giving people the opportunity to repent and believe in Christ so that they could spend eternity with Him (John 3:16). People can resist His desire for them to repent and believe but no one could keep Him from giving people the opportunity to repent and believe so that they could be saved.
Quote:
Bonus question:
1) Does God know the number of souls that will repent and be saved BEFORE creation? Meaning, does God know who will exercise his free-will to choose Him and turn from sin before God creates a single human being with free-will to begin with?
I believe so, but I'm not completely certain. Why do you ask? If the correct answer is yes that would not change the fact that man is responsible to choose whether or not to repent and believe without God doing it for him and if the answer is no that also would not change the fact that man is responsible to choose whether or not to repent and believe without God doing it for him.
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
keyzer soze
So you can't even try to answer any of my questions... ok, that speaks volumes.
This was a very immature response. You didn't specifically respond to anything I said in post #103 but was I rude to you about that like you are being rude to me here? No one is obligated to respond to anything on here if they don't want to. I responded to that post in the way I wanted to, so if my response was not satisfactory to you I can't help that. I didn't answer each of your questions individually because I knew it would be a waste of time. I believe my time is better spent trying to get you to understand that God knowing something beforehand does not mean He willed it to happen. I'll never know how you come to that conclusion. Whether I answered yes or no to those questions doesn't change the fact that man is responsible to willingly choose whether or not to accept or reject Christ. Whether or not God knows man's decisions ahead of time does not matter.
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
keyzer soze
Mark, thanks for popping in and responding, you answer these exactly how I would. I believe the crux of the matter is in these 2 answers, after that we can speculate all we want. But the fact of the matter is that:
1) God is sovereign and His plan/will is being carried out and included in this will is the number who will be saved and consequently, the number who will not be saved. Since God knows all this BEFORE any "free-will" ever takes place, however we want to rationalize it the things that come to be are in His sovereign will because He could have changed His plan if He wanted to...
But that doesn't mean he picks and chooses who gets saved and who doesn't to the detriment of those he does not choose. The offer is a genuine offer to all who will and they can. It's not too all who will but they can't.
Quote:
2) God is in control of who receives Him and who is not.
In the sense that he controls the "how". Romans 9 says it is by faith. He chooses to have mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy and that choice is to one's who entrust themselves to God (i.e. through faith).
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That is not to say that a single person who wants to receive Christ wont, it is to say that God knows who will seek Him and who wont.]
Nor should it say that those who reject him cannot receive him! For he made it so that they can.
Quote:
I totally agree with what you are saying about taking things too far, but the strange thing to me is that I have never heard someone make the arguments that many claim are made by Calvinists or Reformists anywhere. That is not to say that there aren't extremes, there always are, but I think far too much of the extremist's view point gets credited to the reformed Christian.
I had a pastor that was reformed. He personally felt like lost people were trash. They were not loved by God like the elect were loved. They were "created for the fire" so to speak.
Quote:
Personally, I am oh so thankful that God is in control and man's free-will is NOT! Amen to that!
I am grateful God is in control and that he purposed that any man could be saved. ;) He paid the price for everyone!
1 John 2:2
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
NASU
I always enjoy discussing things with you brother!
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Redeemed by Grace
Jesus Declares to His disciple, you did not choose Me, I choice you..
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
What is the context here? Was He telling them that He chose them for salvation and they did not choose to believe in Him for salvation? No! That is not the context at all. He even chose Judas Iscariot so we know His choosing of the disciples was not Him choosing them to be saved without them having a choice in the matter.
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
When Jesus said He chose them but they did not choose Him He was talking in terms of Him choosing them to be His apostles and closest disciples, not choosing them to be saved. It wasn't their choice to be His closest disciples, it was His. The choosing in this case has nothing to do with salvation.
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
keyzer soze
2) God is in control of who receives Him and who is not.
How can man have free will if that is the case? What you're saying here suggests to me that you're saying it is entirely God's choice as to who is saved and who is not and not man's choice at all. So, when you claim that man has free will then my question to you is, free will to do what exactly?
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
John146
How can man have free will if that is the case? What you're saying here suggests to me that you're saying it is entirely God's choice as to who is saved and who is not and not man's choice at all. So, when you claim that man has free will then my question to you is, free will to do what exactly?
can you take 30 seconds to answer post 135 (2) true-false questions? I tried to make it as simple as possible and not consume any time. Thanks
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
John146
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
What is the context here? Was He telling them that He chose them for salvation and they did not choose to believe in Him for salvation? No! That is not the context at all. He even chose Judas Iscariot so we know His choosing of the disciples was not Him choosing them to be saved without them having a choice in the matter.
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
When Jesus said He chose them but they did not choose Him He was talking in terms of Him choosing them to be His apostles and closest disciples, not choosing them to be saved. It wasn't their choice to be His closest disciples, it was His. The choosing in this case has nothing to do with salvation.
Thanks for sharing your opinion
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
keyzer soze
Gadgeteer, let me try to ask it again.
TRUE or FALSE: God knows the number of souls who will be saved to heaven and remain lost to hell BEFORE creation. That is to say before God created any being who could choose anything He knew the headcount of heaven and the headcount of hell.
God knows the future; I perceive that all time is for Him as a single instant.
Yes, He knew. (true)
Quote:
TRUE or FALSE: God is not in control over who is saved and who is lost, that final number is totally an act of man's free-will and God can not change it. God can only call, the results will be of man's choice.
Loaded question. God certainly could change it -- but God has a nature and an essence. There are things God cannot do. God cannot sin; He cannot be causally involved in any sin or wickedness. Jesus explained it in Matt12:25-26 --- a house cannot be divided, even God's house. God is love, and love because of its essence cannot compel or decide anyone to love back. God is perfect and perfectly just; men cannot be condemned under perfect justice for what they could never decide to avoid; Rom2 is clear each man is judged for his own decision; Rom3:26 God's justice acts in response to men's faith.
(Speaking of "God's house" --- we are of God's house, IF we HOLD FAST ...firm until the end." Heb3:6.)
God chooses to place "the word of faith in EACH man's heart and mouth", see if you can deny that in Deut30:11-20 and Acts17:26-31. So the answer is "true", with the change in your wording not that God "cannot", but that He "will not". MAN is in control over his own eternal life --- plain and clear in Romans2:6-8, in 1Tim4:16, and in 1Jn2:26-28. We influence who will be saved in Jude23, and we can destroy someone's salvation in Rom14:15.
Look at this:
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of Heaven from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. ...you travel about on sea and land to make one a convert (to your wickedness), and when he becomes one you make him twice a child of Hell as yourselves." Matt23:13-15.
Tell me how to make "ARE ENTERING" (which, under Reformed Theology must mean "PREDESTINED"), into "never-were-really-entering now shut off" (which under Reformed Theology must mean "NOT-PREDESTINED"). Can you? Do you have any way?
Quote:
I have simplified this down to TRUE or FALSE, could you please answer them for me? Thanks
I done good???
:-)
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brother Mark
Hi KS. I've been following along a little. I would like to answer your questions.
1. True.
2. False.
But I am not saying 2 is false in the sense that a reformed person might think it's false. For instance, I happen to think there are some that are elected and created specifically for a time and place. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb. Jeremiah was created for a specific task and God speaks about that.
However, where I think the reformed folks take it too far is that they say that some CANNOT believe. This is where I disagree whole heartedly with them. Sodom had the ability to repent and believe. He said if Sodom had seen the works that Jesus did in Israel, they would have repented. So they had the ability.
Very nice. So you recognize Jesus' words (Matt11:21-24) rebuking his CURRENT audience (from Capernaum, Bethsaida and Chorazin) to repent?
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That's where I think the reformers miss it. They have to redefine "world" and "love" in places to make it all fit. For God so loved the world means he loved the elect. That he died for our sins and for the sins of the world fits fine with me. But world becomes elect with the reformers.
One of the wildest "rewritings" has to be 2Pet3:9:
"God does not decree to perish any-whom-He's-decreed-not-perish, but patiently waits for only those-few to repent whom-He's-decreed-the-place-and-TIME-of-repentance."
Kinda makes one think: "Uh, huh."
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So while I do think some are saved at birth, i.e. John the Baptist, I don't think that excludes others from believing. Nor does it exclude the ability of man to believe.
We agree.
Quote:
Free will is not really the debate. The debate is, can a man believe and repent when God draws him or not? That's it. Oh, we flesh it out some, but it really boils down to can man believe when God calls him or not? The Calvinist say only the chosen man can believe. I don't think that is scriptural. Sodom could have believed but they did not!
Touche'.
Quote:
Well, I give you this verse.
Luke 7:30
30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
NASU
God purposed something for the lawyers and pharisees but they rejected it! Here's the word in the Greek.
NT:1012
NT:1012 boule (boo-lay'); from NT:1014; volition, i.e. (objectively) advice, or (by implication) purpose:
KJV - advise, counsel, will.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
The root word is
NT:1014
NT:1014 boulomai (boo'-lom-ahee); middle voice of a primary verb.; to "will," i.e. (reflexively) be willing:
KJV - be disposed, minded, intend, list, (be, of own) will (-ing).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Those guys rejected the purpose and will of God concerning their souls.
Can God and does he override man's will? Certainly. Does he do so all the time, certainly not!
Sometimes I am frustrated when things seem so clear to me from Scripture, but maybe I don't communicate it well. I don't believe God is the author of confusion; so why can't we come to agreement on the verses? The only answer is that we can become "prejudiced" to one point of view over another. I pray for myself that God leads me to honest analysis.
:-)
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
keyzer soze
If we are saved we are told this happens:
Eph 4:22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, 10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him— 11 a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.
Keyzer, it does not say "You will do this". It says, "You --- DO this!" It's an imperative, not a "given".
We are to crucify ourselves daily, to abide in Christ daily, to walk in regeneration every day!
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My question is, if you believe you can be "saved" and then turn away and get lost again, would this be the passage that describes the process above but in reverse?
What it says, is that if we cease doing this, then we cease being "in Christ".
Quote:
Missing Verse: Being that you have decided to turn back away from God and become lost again, take off your new self because Christ has departed from within you and put back on your old self and return to your evil ways.
It's a constant "walk in Christ". It is what Paul said in Romans6, "cease submitting yourselves to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but submit yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God"!
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Then my question would be if you had another change of heart, so you have gone from Lost - Saved - Lost - to wanting to be saved again
What happened to the Prodigal? In Luke15:13 (and only verse 13), did he reflect a "still-saved-person"?
When the son returned to his father -- what does "alive AGAIN" convey?
Quote:
New Verse: Put back on what was formerly known as "new self" that you had on prior to returning to your "old self", because Jesus is back, and you are made new... again.
This might come across as making fun but I am really not trying to. Or perhaps I am mistaken and one can only be saved once and hence if you go Lost - Saved - Lost - Can't be saved again is the correct theology...
What is salvation, at its essence? It is a union with Christ. We are "in Christ" --- if any man be in Christ he is a new creation. Now look at 2Cor13:5 --- can we be found "not-in-Christ", and "Christ-not-in-us"? YES!
That's why we are to "examine/test ourselves" --- we can fail-the-test.
Note that "fail-the-test", or "be-unapproved", is Adokimos in the Greek. Same word as in 1Cor9:27.
Please read 1Cor9:25-27 --- Paul admonishes us to run our individual race so as to win the IMMORTAL CROWN (of life!). And Paul himself could very well be "unapproved/disqualified"! The word was used in conjunction with coins; there would be periodic examinations of coins, to see if the image impressed upon them, had faded; if they had lost their image they would be "adokimos-disqualified/rejected".
And WE can be "disqualified/rejected" if the image of Christ has faded from our hearts! Please tell us what you think when you read 2Cor13:5, 1Cor9:25-27, and all of the "abide" verses (Col2:6-8, 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9 for instance)? Each of the "abide" verses are warnings against deceivers.
What are the deceivers trying to do? What is their goal with us?
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
keyzer soze
Mark, thanks for popping in and responding, you answer these exactly how I would. I believe the crux of the matter is in these 2 answers, after that we can speculate all we want. But the fact of the matter is that:
1) God is sovereign and His plan/will is being carried out and included in this will is the number who will be saved and consequently, the number who will not be saved. Since God knows all this BEFORE any "free-will" ever takes place, however we want to rationalize it the things that come to be are in His sovereign will because He could have changed His plan if He wanted to...
Do you think God made changes in His plan to either include, or exclude anyone?
Quote:
2) God is in control of who receives Him and who is not. That is not to say that a single person who wants to receive Christ won't, it is to say that God knows who will seek Him and who won't.
Does God have any part in anyone "wanting" to receive Christ, or not?
Quote:
I totally agree with what you are saying about taking things too far, but the strange thing to me is that I have never heard someone make the arguments that many claim are made by Calvinists or Reformists anywhere. That is not to say that there aren't extremes, there always are, but I think far too much of the extremist's view point gets credited to the reformed Christian.
There are almost as many variants of Calvinism as there are Calvinists. One point, two point, three point, four point and six point (okay, five point; didn't wanna be predictable). There are "single-predestinationists" and "double-predestinationists". Some "lapsarian" views that I can't remember. On and on. It's sometimes difficult to remember exactly who is what, so I can step on others' toes; apologies to anyone if I've done that.
Quote:
Personally, I am oh so thankful that God is in control and man's free-will is NOT! Amen to that!
What does the word, "RESPONSIBLE", mean to you? The dictionary definition is "accountable for cause of something in one's power or control". And that's the issue -- is it in anyone's power or control to be saved, or does God ultimately make the decision?
Reformed Theology is based on not only "total depravity", but "total inability". Therefore the sequence must be: "God changes a heart FIRST, monergistically making it new and making the person BORN-AGAIN, and then faith follows irresistibly (or is gifted directly WITH regeneration)".
If you've been following, we've discussed 1Cor2:14, 2Cor4:3-4, and Ezk36:26-27. We have not yet discussed 1Jn5:1; but nowhere is "born-again-before-belief". In 1Cor2:14, the THINGS are revealed AFTER belief, through the received (by belief!) Spirit. In 2Cor3:16 one turns to the Lord (belief!) BEFORE the veil is removed from their eyes. In Ezk11:18 men turn to God and away from abominations BEFORE they get new hearts (but those who refuse to turn from their abominations, are condemned).
I don't understand how Deut30:11-20, with Rom10:6-10, and the connected Acts17:26-31 do not settle it forever; it is not too far nor too difficult (if "predestination" was the theme, then for the unpredestined it is infinitely and forever too far!); the word of faith in in our hearts and mouths, both of those who can confess and believe and be saved, an in those who can turn away disbelieve and perish. If I'm missing something --- what is it?
Acts17 asserts that God makes sure that each person is where, and when, he can seek and perhaps find God --- it is NOT too far from ANYONE.
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Gadgeteer, aside from boasting not being appealing to anyone, could one boast that he is saved through his own faith if one wanted to because that is not from God but from oneself? Meaning, a saved person can look at an unsaved person and boast that they are saved because they had faith and the other person did not. Am I correct in that claim?
I ask because I am under the impression that a saved person has absolutely NOTHING to boast about vs. an unsaved person because his total salvation (including faith) is a gift from God. However, as I hear you and many others tell it, it seems that one could boast of their faith because that is not something that God provides, the grace is the gift but the faith is from humans and hence, a person could boast that they were able to provide something that a lost person couldn't.
Boy I hope that comes across how it sounds in my brain....
