but I get a chuckle out of how many time I hear the phrase: "this isn't rocket science!" LOL
Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
So, how do you reconcile verses like these with your blanket statement that all men do not seek after God? These passages say that men do seek after God, so in what sense do men not seek after God and in what sense do men seek after God? What it seems to me that you're doing is drawing conclusions from some verses while not taking others into consideration.
To do what exactly? Are you agreeing with me that all men are able to put their faith in Christ?Quote:
Able is an interesting word choice. Ability...Capability. All men thus are able, I would agree,
Again, you are making a blanket statement regarding all men, but you and I don't reject Christ so how do you reconcile that with what you're saying?Quote:
however all men never avail themselves and thus all men reject
What does that mean?Quote:
Why do you reject my call to see the sovereignty of God within your believing?
Because it doesn't declare that and you have been shown why it does not say that many times. Salvation is the gift of God, not faith.Quote:
Why when Ephesians 2 declares that faith is a gift from God, you say it is not?
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Sinners need to be saved. All people are sinners. Therefore, Jesus came to save all people on the condition that they repent and put their faith in Him.Quote:
A man who has a refrigerator of food will not worry about going hungry. A man without food, thinks about it constantly. If one hears the Gospel and says don't need it, doesn't mean he was not able to hear it, nor understand it. Jesus came to save those who needed to be saved.
Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Is there any sinner that Jesus does not call to repentance? Would He call anyone to repentance who was unable to repent?
Do I reject what you say because I can't possibly accept it or because I choose to reject it? Is it possible that I could choose to agree with what you're saying at a later time or have I been predestined to not accept what you're saying?Quote:
It's the same reason why men don't repent when they hear the Gospel, for you reject what I am say because you judge my words as being false... So too with none believers, for they judge the Gospel as also being false. Now read that carefully, I'm not calling you a non believer, I'm calling your actions to my presentation of the Sovereignty of God as not being received by you -- as in kind why some don't believe the call of the Gospel... You both don't agree with it. The the outcome but the action to the outcome.
That's simply not true. Read Matthew 22:1-14. Do you read that and not see anyone answering His call? All the guests at the wedding with wedding garments on are those who answered His call, but you're trying to tell me that no one answers His call? Scripture shows otherwise. If what you said was true (it's clearly not) then why would He call anyone if no one can answer?Quote:
I agree but add to all men will not answer His call.
Am I rejecting your words because I can't help but reject them or do I choose currently to reject them with the possibility of agreeing with them at a later time (or not)?Quote:
They are able, they reject, just like you are doing with my words.
What one desires is a choice that people make.Quote:
It's desire not ability
So? How do you explain that I'm not now? Your blanket statements regarding all men just don't hold water.Quote:
Well now you don't, if Christ is within you... but you were at one time before.
So, you want me to read that passage but you're not willing to comment on the passage I quoted or respond to what I said about it? You highlighted certain things about this passage but what you seem to overlook is that men must receive/accept Christ before being given "the right to become children of God" which means we must receive/accept Christ before being born of God. But your doctrine says we are born of God and then we receive/accept Christ, which contradicts the order given in scripture. So, this passage is not one you can use to support your doctrine. When it says we're not born of blood, the will of the flesh or man but of God that doesn't mean we're not born again as a result of a choice we make, it means that the actual process or regeneration is something God does within us. But what I believe you don't understand is that this does not happen until we have first received/accepted Christ, as it says in John 1:12.Quote:
Read the following carefully:
John 1:9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
It happens on a personal level too but people don't like it. Remember what Samuel said concerning Saul's kingdom? He said that had he honored God, that Saul's lineage would always be on the throne.Quote:
2) Totally hear what you are saying above but isn't it interesting in the OT it seems that everything is on a NATION level and less personal. Yet when we talk about salvation/election, etc... today, its almost always on a personal level and not nation. While I hear what you are saying about God giving the nations time, Israel would have been going in and slaughtering children and youths. Does God hold these young people accountable for their ancestor's refusal to repent as a nation?
1 Sam 13:13-14
3 Samuel said to Saul, " You have acted foolishly; you have not kept the commandment of the Lord your God, which He commanded you, for now the Lord would have established your kingdom over Israel forever.
Jonathan was next in line after Saul. But he saw that God had anointed David instead and received it. Jonathan was not king because of the sin of King Saul.
Another thing to remember, that often times, that while the anger of God is wrath to one person, it is mercy to another. God destroyed all the children in the flood. That doesn't mean they were not rescued spiritually. God waited 400 years before destroying the ites in Canaan. Perhaps it is when they become so wicked, that even their children have no shot that he intervenes. I don't know.
Types and shadows are awesome! Check out A. W. Pink and his book on Genesis. (He's reformed too so that should make it more tasteful for you.) Types and shadows help us see the spiritual behind the physical in the OT.Quote:
3) At times I am blown away that the OT is the same religion as what I hear at church. It comes across as very pagan like at times...
Sin is a really big deal... Yea. But grace and mercy are bigger. The biggest sin of all is sin against mercy and grace through blasphemy. The more light we have, the more God holds us accountable.Quote:
4) One thing that the OT is making bigger and bigger to me, that no matter how big I make sin, the big problem between sin and God is far HUGER then I can ever imagine. I think I take that for granted a lot. God not smiting us immediately when we sin is grace itself even if we don't believe/saved from grace. I believe this is "general grace" that Paul is talking about when he says that God holds up on judgement, even those who sinned pre-Christ were not judged immediately.
Does scripture say?Quote:
Now the interesting question/issue is can we learn anything about babies and their sinful nature based on God giving the order to wipe out even the babies multiple times in the bible.
No doubt it was a different culture.Quote:
Another thought. I found it strange that in 1 Sam 15 Saul decides to KEEP THE GOOD ANIMALS but slaughter all the human babies... there again I think their culture was far different then today where we put so much more importance on the individual.
Personally, I LOVE the OT. It's fascinating reading and IMO, gives us great insight into God.
One last question to consider... is there a difference in God's attributes and his character? If so, what?
Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Look at this. God wants to "have mercy upon all"! He doesn't just randomly have mercy on some and not on others. He wants to "have mercy upon all" and He does have mercy on anyone who believes in Christ. He wants all people to believe in Christ and to be saved (John 3:16, 1 Tim 2:3-6) and will have mercy on anyone who does so.
i do get what you are saying though. there seems to be scripture principles and verses that show that man does choose before being born-again. i remember taking the issue of being born-again to my pastor and he sited a number of verses where being born again did not come before faith. so i am still processing and studying.
here is a pretty cool video that actually sparked my line of questioning to my pastor. i am not sure the rules on linking videos so if this is a no, no just delete and let me know for future reference.
Can you help me understand what difference you see between "belief", and "walk"? To me, "believe in Jesus", is far more than just mental assent (see James2:19). It is to abide in Him and Him in us (Jn15:4). Thus, "saving-belief" is "abiding-in-Jesus" (and Jesus abiding in us). To abide in Jesus is to walk in Jesus --- which is to continue to walk and abide and believe...Quote:
There are three elements that sometimes gets mixed up as being saved. They are belief [faith]; Walk [Obedience, Learning, Growing]
I'm curious to what difference you see...Because I see salvation as "KEEP abiding" ("menō" is aorist-active-imperative in Jn15:4), all the warnings read to me as "keep abiding".Quote:
Examination [Warnings, Challenges]. They are not tripartite in being saved, but walk and examination confirm one's beliefs.
1Jn2:26-28 for instance:
These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.
As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as
.....His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 1Jn2:26-28
Here "menō" is present active imperative, "keep abiding". A warning in the presence of deceivers; the alternative to "abiding", is to "shrink-in-shame", which means to be found abiding in SIN rather than in Jesus.
What about the idea of "being taken captive away from Jesus"? I don't think you have engaged that.Quote:
Colossians 2:8 speaks well to a mixture of walk and examination. Paul states in Chapter one that they came to being saved through the wisdom of the Gospel given by Epaphras, confirmed in the Spirit shown as love. Then Paul, being encouraged as to this report, asks God to grow them and be filled with
a) knowledge of His will,
b) in spiritual wisdom and understanding,
c)so that they will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. Then Paul goes back to explain how their salvation came to be - For He rescued us from the domain of darkness....
So three categories of a Christian, so to speak: Being saved -- yielding next to walking the christian walk, testing for faith along the way. A true christian will have all three elements. A counter Christian lacks true saving Faith... lack of the indwelling of His Spirit that allows and provides for growth and passing tests.
You have a heart for God, "Redeemed". Whether or not we agree, you are a blessing, and it is an honor for me when you let me look through your eyes.Quote:
Thanks Gadgeteer... I do appreciate your brevity and devotion to your understandings, for no matter what each of us sees in this matter, it is still within the doctrine of being saved and we rejoice in His glory!
I cheat --- use online things like "blueletterbible.org". But some of the connections I haven't seen others promote. The connection between Deut30:11-20 has been obvious with Romans10:6-10, but seems equally obvious Acts17:26-31 applies --- "it is not far from any of us, all are commanded to repent". I don't think I've heard anyone connect Jn17:6 with Jn6:37 & 44, and with Acts16:14-16 (Lydia). It also connects with John8:42 --- "belonging to God" fits with "belief/love", thus "If God was your Father you would love Me" (Jn8:42); and that connects with the rebuke of Jn5:39-47 "You are unwilling to come to Me to have life ...you don't love God". R.C.Sproul did make the connection between Jn6 and Jn17:6, but for the wrong reason; he said "belonging to God is SOVEREIGN ELECTION/PREDESTINATION". That opposes the idea of "believing-because-of-seeing" (Jn20:29, and especially Jn10:38).Quote:
I am only reading the OT for the very first time right now page by page and it's awesome! However, I am NOT quick to be able to find the verses that are the foundation of my beliefs like you can.... I can find them if I have enough time but it takes a long time.
Really! Very cool!Quote:
I do enjoy looking this stuff up and if I didn't have the responsibilities I have and also a family I would spend more time. I am also a guy who needs SLEEP, if I don't get it I get moody and no one wants me around! Plus my concentration level bombs!
By the way, I am the type (probably part of what drove me into rocket-science)
There is a T-shirt that's popular with NASA employees,
"Actually, I AM a rocket scientist!"
I think that ranks up there with:
"This is not rocket surgery!"Don't sell yourself short. Sometimes understanding is just a question of learning more and more. The more I study Scripture, the more I learn. I was ashamed last year when I realized the clear connection between Deut30:11-20, and Rom10:6-10; was there 2000 years, but I hadn't seen it! Rather a "DUH" moment. :oQuote:
that wants to clear up ALL passages that are in conflict with my theology. However, I know that there are limits, I know that after 2,000 years there are still LOTS of disputes between men MUCH smarter then myself AND more studied than myself so it is illogical to think that I am going to be able to explain everything regardless.
Till I have more time, have a good one!
Excellent! This of course is the answer to the "secondary" Acts13:48 ("As many as were ORDAINED to eternal life, believed"). "Ordained" is not the best word. Tasso (in this case tetagmenoi) is better rendered "positioned". And it could be by their belief. Paraphrased, "as many as were INCLINED/DISPOSED to eternal life, believed." In no way could the Jews UNELECT THEMSELVES (verse 46), if verse 48 is endorsing "sovereign election of the GENTILES".Quote:
Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
You are good! Very excellent post!Quote:
Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Matt 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Isa 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
...unless it's an ELEPHANT with a cold in his nose...What's still to be settled between us, is the question: "Does God draw/enable ALL MEN to respond?"Quote:
The Gospel is wide open for all to hear and respond... Doesn't mean that man cannot resist, quite the opposite, all men love the darkness over the light.
What does the phrase "It's not too far from any of us" mean in Acts17:26-31, and in Deut30:11-20?
Veterinarian: "I see that you're planning a trip?"
Elephant, frowning: "Uh, no --- why?"
Vet: "Well, your TRUNK is packed..."
The answer to "total inability", is not Pelagianism, or Semi-Pelagianism; it is God's call to all men --- the call is the power for us to overcome sin and unbelief.
What was it again that happened in Acts2:37? Peter was saying, "You've been waiting all this time for the Messiah; well, He CAME, and you KILLED Him!"
The audience was convicted! "Smitten-in-conscience", or "cut-to-the-heart"!
The concept of "persuasion" (Acts26:28-29, Jn20:31) means that men DO have the ability to believe. Jesus really meant it when He said in Jn12:32 "I will DRAW (helkuo-draw/drag-forcibly) all men to Myself". All men. He is the power, the choice is ours...
Have you ever looked at 1Samuel23:12? God knew two futures, and David chose one. "Stay and they will capture you."Quote:
1 Then Samuel said to Saul, “The LORD sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the LORD. 2 Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”
Now, what happened to Nineveh? God was gonna destroy them, unless they listened to Jonah. They did, they repented, and God did NOT destroy them!
Of course, if a guy walked up to me after having been in the belly of a fish for three days, his hair bleached white from the stomach juices --- a bit of sea-weed hanging down right here --- and pointed at me and said "REPENT!"...
...and I shall escape the very flames of Hell, only because of His love!
Very excellent post, well done!Quote:
Here's what Paul said about men that did not have the law.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
and even more plain...
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
In both passages Paul talks about how God made it known to them inwardly.
PS... To your previous post... wait till you see all the times in scripture where it says God repented, relented, changed his mind, etc. IMO, God doesn't change his mind like a man does or for the same reasons. Check out Jer. 18 where God talks about what will cause him to relent.
I don't believe you can cease to be born again, so I am not sure what you are asking here. Here is how I interpret the above scripture and most of the epistles that Paul is writing.Quote:
I was very glad to find some of your children walking in truth, just as we have received commandment to do from the Father.
Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.
And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
Let's establish some clear points from this passage:
1. He's speaking so the SAVED ("some of your children walking in the truth")
2. He admonishes them to WALK in His commandments
3. He warns that there are DECEIVERS in the world
4. (therefore) watch yourselves that you not lose what was wrought
4b. ...that you may receive full reward
5. (because) anyone who goes too far and does not abide in Christ's teachings has not God.
6. (but) he who abides has the Father and the Son.
"Reward of the inheritance" in Col3:24.
There are those who try to assert a subject change between verses 8 and 9(and another subject-change-back in verse 9); but there is no subject change. It's a warning to believers, against deceivers, to [u]abide in salvation[p/u]. It can't be anything else.
Here is how some people try to understand it:
"Many deceivers have gone into the world. WATCH yourselves that you not lose what was wrought, but that you receive HEAVENLY CROWNS. Anyone who was NEVER-SAVED will (of course) go too far, and won't abide in Christ's teachings (they have never abided!); but the truly saved WILL abide and will have the Father and the Son."
Obviously, one cannot GO too far, if he was ALWAYS too far! And why warn the saved against deceivers --- do deceivers really care how many "shiny crowns" we have in Heaven? And why insert a statement about the "never-saved", making a subject sandwich -- saved/unsaved/saved? How does that make sense?
All views of OSAS deny movement; that is, "one cannot move from saved to unsaved". But 2Jn does not have subject-changes, and very clearly expresses that movement. Your quote from 1Jn2 and 3 does not overturn the movement in 2Jn.
Whoever IS born-again, DOES NOT leave; but if one ceases to believe, he ceases to be born again.
Would you be willing to discuss a verse that teaches the reality of "ceasing-to-be-born-again"?
1) Paul is writing to believers (in the sense that he know some believe and would be the same way my pastor would address our church. he knows SOME believe but also knows not all believe. he would also recognize that there are some there who THINK they believe but probably don't and when things get tough later will be exposed)
2) Paul typically tries to encourage and build up. I believe every epistle except Galatians Paul is commending to his readers about something in his greeting. In Galatians Paul is ticked off by what he has heard and gets to the heart of the matter before any pleasantries.
3) Paul can't read hearts
4) Paul warns of things that can lead someone estray
All in all I believe that if someone walks away from Christ they were never really with Christ. 1 Jn 2:19 is the general explanation that I would give to anyone who is lead away from the truth and the same verse I would point to for the shallow soil and the thorny soil: They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
I know you wont be a fan of this reasoning but its what I believe. Plus I don't have my bible on me right now to look anything up so this was the only verse I could think of to describe/cross-reference how I interpret what is going on here. I do NOT believe that the devil can ever snatch away someone who belongs to Christ.
Acts 17:32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer, but others said, "We shall hear you again concerning this." 33 So Paul went out of their midst. 34 But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.
With Deuteronomy, this is tougher for us to apply as Christians, for by context, the instructions are directed towards Israel. With Christ, the response is not choice, but to respond in faith.
Was thinking about this stuff this morning with regards to OSAS and election.... Gadgeteer, I would like you to tell me what these verses mean to you:
Rom 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
- To me, if I may be so bold to make the assumption that those who are saved love God, and the second assumption that staying saved is GOOD, then it sure seems to me that the only way someone could LOSE their salvation would be according to His purpose and according to Jesus His purpose is to save, not lose people.
With regards to your asking about Paul's warnings about being deceived and taking it to the point where you think Paul is warning true believers to not fall away, how do you reconcile that with these verses?
1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
I John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Interested to hear back on how you reconcile these verses with the doctrine that God would allow false teachers to pull someone out of salvation.
One last thought: I believe in OSAS because I have confidence in Jesus Christ, not my flesh. I believe God tells us this in His word. If I am truly saved today (which I can only know based on reflection of the changes/priorities in my life) then I believe the follow verse speaks to me.
Phi 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.