Calvinism / pre-destination

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Originally Posted by keyzer soze

Was thinking about this stuff this morning with regards to OSAS and election.... Gadgeteer, I would like you to tell me what these verses mean to you:

Rom 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

- To me, if I may be so bold to make the assumption that those who are saved love God, and the second assumption that staying saved is GOOD, then it sure seems to me that the only way someone could LOSE their salvation would be according to His purpose and according to Jesus His purpose is to save, not lose people.

With regards to your asking about Paul's warnings about being deceived and taking it to the point where you think Paul is warning true believers to not fall away, how do you reconcile that with these verses?

1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

I John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Interested to hear back on how you reconcile these verses with the doctrine that God would allow false teachers to pull someone out of salvation.

One last thought: I believe in OSAS because I have confidence in Jesus Christ, not my flesh. I believe God tells us this in His word. If I am truly saved today (which I can only know based on reflection of the changes/priorities in my life) then I believe the follow verse speaks to me.
Phi 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

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You raise a good Point KS... For today all of us would be considered saved by our own words if not by God. But those who hold to the Aminian view say that tomorrow they could fall away. So today saved, hoping that they are still saved tomorrow.

My contention is why enter something with a possibility of using the back door? Our society allows for divorce without cause, and bankruptcy if he can't pay his due... so walking away from Jesus is also another possibility. If a man can walk away, why would he enter into faith in the first place? However if it were God who was the cause and reason one believed, for if it was God who enters the heart and augments it to believe with his will and then be more like Christ and less like self, for if God's will trumps a man's will, then who offers the surety of his being saved? God, not man.


Our confidence is not just in what we believe, but who we are in Christ. When you are in, you are surrounded. A jar surrounds the jam, the jar contains it, holds it forms it, conforms it into the image of the Jar. So too with Christ. Praise God!

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Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace

You raise a good Point KS... For today all of us would be considered saved by our own words if not by God. But those who hold to the Aminian view say that tomorrow they could fall away. So today saved, hoping that they are still saved tomorrow.

My contention is why enter something with a possibility of using the back door? Our society allows for divorce without cause, and bankruptcy if he can't pay his due... so walking away from Jesus is also another possibility. If a man can walk away, why would he enter into faith in the first place? However if it were God who was the cause and reason one believed, for if it was God who enters the heart and augments it to believe with his will and then be more like Christ and less like self, for if God's will trumps a man's will, then who offers the surety of his being saved? God, not man.


Our confidence is not just in what we believe, but who we are in Christ. When you are in, you are surrounded. A jar surrounds the jam, the jar contains it, holds it forms it, conforms it into the image of the Jar. So too with Christ. Praise God!

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Most excellent observation. I heartily agree.

In Him,

CC

Romans 8:15-17

Phil 1:6 - I guess pending on how you interpret this, this verse seems to be both pro election and OSAS doesn't it?

6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

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Originally Posted by keyzer soze

thanks, i simply don't have time usually and i don't have scripture memorized. so i typically know what verse or concept i want to reply with but it takes too long for me to find it.

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Well, just go to blueletterbible.org. You can search anything in most any translation (but verb tenses only appear in KJV). Even dialup takes less than a minute...

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I don't believe you can cease to be born again, so I am not sure what you are asking here.

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What I was asking, is "what if I show you a verse that speaks of becoming un-born?"

"It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as sons. (But) if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers/partners, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?

...much less shall WE escape who turn away from (God)!" Heb12:7-9, 25

What points does he establish?

1. He's talking to a saved audience, encouraging them (including himself!) to "let us run with endurance the race before us, avoiding the sin which so easily entangles us".

2. He asserts that all of us have become subject/partakers in His discipline (past tense!)

3. But there is a true possibility of change; though in the past you were under God's discipline, if you are NOW WITHOUT then you are not sons. Clearly saying "no LONGER sons but now illegitimate"!

4. Verse 9 is an eternal question --- "shall we not BE (continue!) in subjection to God's discipline AND LIVE (eternally)?"

5. Verse 15 (do not fall) and 25 (do not turn away from God) are clearly teaching "fallible salvation".


I've posted several times "the entire letter of Hebrews", where chapter after chapter the readers are warned against falling-from-salvation. Have you read those posts?

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Here is how I interpret the above scripture and most of the epistles that Paul is writing.

1) Paul is writing to believers (in the sense that he know some believe and would be the same way my pastor would address our church. he knows SOME believe but also knows not all believe. he would also recognize that there are some there who THINK they believe but probably don't and when things get tough later will be exposed)

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Can't be --- "ALL have become subject" --- a never-saved person is never-subject to God's discipline. He says "shall WE" -- including himself. All views of OSAS deny movement; "one cannot move from saved to unsaved, if someone is not saved NOW then he was never REALLY saved in the first place". But movement is in verse 8, it's in verse 15, and it's in verse 25. Movement is also in chapters 2, 3, 4, 6, 10, and 13 if you'd like to discuss those.

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2) Paul typically tries to encourage and build up. I believe every epistle except Galatians Paul is commending to his readers about something in his greeting. In Galatians Paul is ticked off by what he has heard and gets to the heart of the matter before any pleasantries.

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So you are trying two principles:
1. Those who do not submit were never REALLY saved in the FIRST place.
2. "Not-submitting" is hypothetical but not possible, it's encouragement or "effective means".

Can you establish either of those principles as "credible", with respect to 2John or Hebrews12, that we've been discussing?

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3) Paul can't read hearts

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Why does he want to read hearts? Obviously, to lead NEVER-believers to salvation (embodying principle #1 just above); if a person can be led TO salvation, on what basis can he not be led FROM salvation?

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4) Paul warns of things that can lead someone astray

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Now this is a contradiction to what you've been saying; can someone be led astray, or not? Is it "mere hypothetical, fatherly advice (effective means) by which God KEEPS us saved, but it can't really ever happen"?

Or can we really be led astray?

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All in all I believe that if someone walks away from Christ they were never really with Christ. 1 Jn 2:19 is the general explanation that I would give to anyone who is lead away from the truth and the same verse I would point to for the shallow soil and the thorny soil: They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

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In 1Jn2:19, clearly "they were not with us", when they left. Could they have been saved, according to the wording, last year? Last week? Yes! There is nothing in the wording which prevents that. Now -- 2Jn1:7-9, if there is no subject-change, very plainly speaks of "deceivers which can lead some astray to to out from us (go on ahead, or go too far)". So we would either have to prove the strange interpretation (the "subject sandwich") or accept that a truly saved person can become unsaved.

"Many deceivers have gone into the world. WATCH yourselves that you not lose what was wrought, but that you receive HEAVENLY CROWNS. Anyone who was NEVER-SAVED will (of course) go too far, and won't abide in Christ's teachings (they have never abided!); but the truly saved WILL abide and will have the Father and the Son."

Can we support "subject-sandwich", that is "saved/unsaved/saved", and the premise that deceivers want us to have less rewards in Heaven? That doesn't ring credible, does it? "Fallible salvation" in 2Jn1 is the same as what we just discussed in Hebrews12, isn't it? And it's the same in 1Jn2:26-28 (where not-abiding causes us to shrink-in-shame before Jesus from our sin), it's the warning of 1Tim4:16, of 2Pet1:5-11 and 3:17, dozens and dozens of verses.

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I know you won't be a fan of this reasoning but its what I believe.

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What you and I are doing here, is disassembling our doctrines, and looking at the bricks that found what we believe. If those bricks do not fit what either of us has previously built, then the structure has to be changed rather than the bricks thrown away. Do you agree? Can you show me how Hebrews12 and 2Jn1 do not say what I think they say, can you show me a different way "my bricks have to go together"?

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Plus I don't have my bible on me right now to look anything up so this was the only verse I could think of to describe/cross-reference how I interpret what is going on here. I do NOT believe that the devil can ever snatch away someone who belongs to Christ.

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He cannot. Using the word "snatch", as Jesus used it, in Jn10:26 & 28, "harpazo-sieze/remove-FORCIBLY". No ONE can FORCE us away. Yet --- we can be persuaded into saving belief (John20:31!), if we get persuaded out of belief (deceived!) it's not forcing anyone, is it?

...look at this verse again:

"I worry, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should also be deceived away from the purity and simplicity of devotion to Christ." 2Cor11:3.

What is the danger? What does serpent-satan want to accomplish? From what are we at the same risk as Eve? Why did Paul write this?

Let's put all these bricks-of-Bible-passages together, both of us, and see what we build. Can you propose a structure that still fits any view of "Once Saved Always Saved"?

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Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace

And another great mystery of life is "Why do noses run and feet smell?"

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Hah! 'Cause' you're upside down! :-D

Other wise sayings from the Great Philosogizer, "Confusion":

Confusion say, "Man with foot in mouth, no step on others' toes!"
Of course, Confusion also say "Man who stand on toilet get high on pot!"

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To Acts 17, the Gospel is open to all to hear and all to respond. For which Acts continues after Paul openly presented the truth...

Acts 17:32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer, but others said, "We shall hear you again concerning this." 33 So Paul went out of their midst. 34 But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.

With Deuteronomy, this is tougher for us to apply as Christians, for by context, the instructions are directed towards Israel. With Christ, the response is not choice, but to respond in faith.

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If there be no resurrection, then our faith is in vain! 1Cor15!

Re "only Israel" -- Paul says that Jesus' Gospel is the same word of faith as in Deuteronomy. Rom10:6 quotes Deut30:12, Rom10:8 quotes Deut30:14.

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What happens when ducks fly upside down..... well they quack up!

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Nice!

Have you ever heard of Peter Pan's Hunt???

yes, read my other post with my scripture verses from this morning.

it seems like you think that the devil is hard after believers but Jesus/God just sets by and does nothing. that is not how I read the verses I posted this morning...

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Originally Posted by keyzer soze

Was thinking about this stuff this morning with regards to OSAS and election.... Gadgeteer, I would like you to tell me what these verses mean to you:

Rom 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

- To me, if I may be so bold to make the assumption that those who are saved love God,

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Hi again. I understand it in reverse --- those who love God are saved. "Love" is causal, not consequential; else the Greatest Commandment could not be "LOVE GOD". Matt22:37.

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and the second assumption that staying saved is GOOD, then it sure seems to me that the only way someone could LOSE their salvation would be according to His purpose and according to Jesus His purpose is to save, not lose people.

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Salvation is the response to man's love and faith, Peter said it in 1:1:9. Love is causal, not consequential. "Loving God", is interchangeable with "believing God" salvationally.

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ith regards to your asking about Paul's warnings about being deceived and taking it to the point where you think Paul is warning true believers to not fall away, how do you reconcile that with these verses?

1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

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Previous verse: "Let he who thinks he stand take heed, lest he FALL." Every sin is a turning-one's-back-on-God. Yes, we the saved sin; but what happens next? Do we turn back to God, throwing ourselves at His feet in shame and sorrow, begging His forgiveness and power to resist sin the next time? Or do we sin AGAIN? You can see it is not the SIN that condemns us, but the AGAIN.

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I John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

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And he WHO overcomes (by abiding in Jesus-the-overcomer!) shall not be blotted from the book of life, Rev3:5!

If "Heaven belongs to children" (Matt19:14), then clearly every person begins written in His book, and each gets blotted by conscious unbelief. Look at what condemns people in Matt3:18, and 1Jn6:10 --- unbelief.

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Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Interested to hear back on how you reconcile these verses with the doctrine that God would allow false teachers to pull someone out of salvation.

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I look forward to your thoughts on Hebrews12, what happens if we cease to be children-of-God, cease to be born again.

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One last thought: I believe in OSAS because I have confidence in Jesus Christ, not my flesh. I believe God tells us this in His word.

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Once Saved Always saved is true; from God's side. He will never leave us nor forsake us (Heb13:2), His gifts and calling are not revocable by Him (Rom11:29), He remains faithful --- even if WE are faithless and PERISH! 2Tim2:11-13!

Clearly we can leave Him; He has not failed if we leave, we have.

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If I am truly saved today (which I can only know based on reflection of the changes/priorities in my life) then I believe the follow verse speaks to me.
Phi 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

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Please read Philip1:9-10, and tell me how it reads to you. It seems to be a prayer for us to continue in salvation, doesn't it? SO THAT you may approve... IN ORDER TO BE sincere and blameless until the day of Christ...

What else could it be?

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Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace

You raise a good Point KS... For today all of us would be considered saved by our own words if not by God. But those who hold to the Arminian view say that tomorrow they could fall away. So today saved, hoping that they are still saved tomorrow.

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"Hoping they are still saved"?

"I know whom I have believed and am convinced that He is able to guard that which I have entrusted to Him until that day. Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith an dlove which are in Christ Jesus. Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you." 2Tim1:12-14

There is no smoky uncertain "hoping-still-saved". There is both solid assurance, and personal responsibility to guard the treasure of eternal life that God entrusts to us. Guard, by the SPIRIT'S power, not by our power. His power, our faith.

"Retain the standard of sound words" --- doesn't that sound a bit like 1Tim4:16, "Abide in (Jesus') teachings ...to SAVE YOURSELVES"? Am I understanding Paul wrong in these passages?

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My contention is why enter something with a possibility of using the back door? Our society allows for divorce without cause, and bankruptcy if he can't pay his due... so walking away from Jesus is also another possibility.

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If it's our faith by which we enter Jesus (1Pet1:9), if Paul says "from beginning faith to ENDING faith" in Rom1:17, if the Galatians "began in the Spirit but ended in the flesh" (Gal3:3), then why is it a difficult concept to understand that we "persevere by constant faith"?

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If a man can walk away, why would he enter into faith in the first place?

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Not "why", "how". A man enters by voluntary faith --- the thing is, it's not a one-time-faith, but a lifetime faith. Day by day. That's why there are all these verses that say "ABIDE in Me"...

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However if it were God who was the cause and reason one believed, for if it was God who enters the heart and augments it to believe with his will and then be more like Christ and less like self, for if God's will trumps a man's will, then who offers the surety of his being saved? God, not man.

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Okay --- "God enters the heart and changes it; salvation is all of God and nothing of men --- regeneration is monergistic".

...so why do we still sin? Isn't God powerful enough to change the heart sufficiently to overcome sin?
What's wrong with God???

What if it's that God enters our hearts through faith, and He abides in us as we abide in Him BY faith? Look again at 2Tim2:

"If we have died with Him we shall also live with Him.
If we endure, we shall also reign with Him.

(BUT)

...if we deny Him, He also will deny us (Matt10:33!).
If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself." 2Tim2:11-13.

The word "BUT" isn't actually there; do you deny that is the message? Is "denying-Him" (which in the Matt10 verse I noted equates to HIM denying US before God) possible? If we are faithless (though He remains faithful) --- is that a possibility, and can we be "faithlessly-SAVED"?

Isn't this a passage that seriously "makes you go 'HHHMMMmmmmmm' "?

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Our confidence is not just in what we believe, but who we are in Christ.

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When Heb10:35 warns us to "not throw away our confidence", isn't it saying "don't throw away Jesus"? (Connect Heb10:19 and Heb6:19).

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When you are in, you are surrounded.

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Then why are we warned to "see if we are still in Christ", 2Cor13:5? Adokimos-disqualified is very much in view. Isn't that the exact same message Peter strove to teach, in 2:1:5-11?

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A jar surrounds the jam, the jar contains it, holds it forms it, conforms it into the image of the Jar. So too with Christ.

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So --- again --- why do we sin? What's wrong with God that He doesn't make us strong enough to overcome sin? Are we "new creations", or not? "No one born of God ...sins ...he CANNOT sin because he is born/begotten of God." 1Jn3:9 How does this fit?

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Praise God!

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Praise Him, forever; lift His name above all in the Universe, for He is worthy. Praise Him in the morning, in the evening, every day! But --- can we be deceived by worldy deception into unbelief, and cease praising Him?

That's the issue; what causes our position in Christ --- is "faith" causal or consequential --- and what KEEPS our position?

"KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God (building yourselves in holy faith), awaiting anxiously for the mercy of Christ to eternal life". Jude20-21.

What did Jude mean? Is "not-keeping", possible? http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/fr...smiley-007.gif

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Originally Posted by keyzer soze

yes, read my other post with my scripture verses from this morning.

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Read, answered; looking forward to your thoughts on Philip1:9-10, a prayer for us to abide in salvation. It continues in chapter 2:

"Do all things without grumbling, THAT you prove yourselves blameless and innocent, children of God ...SO THAT in the day of Christ I may have cause to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain (over you)."

This reads to me as Paul judging his success in terms of our perseverance-in-salvation; how does it read to you?

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it seems like you think that the devil is hard after believers but Jesus/God just sits by and does nothing. that is not how I read the verses I posted this morning...

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No, He does not "sit by" --- but He also does not trample on our will. We can trample --- on Jesus and insult the Spirit in Heb10:29; we can grieve the Spirit in Eph4:30; we can resist the Spirit Acts7:51.

God did not force us to believe (it's a commandment, not a compulsion!), nor does He force us to continue.

With all these verses we've been reading --- isn't a solid and continuous theme emerging? Take the idea of "blameless", that we read in Philip1:10 and Philip2:15. Jude24 says God is able to keep us from stumbling and to make us stand in the presence of His glory blameless --- but that is in context with "keep yourselves in His love". Blameless is also in 2Pet3:14, and Col1:21-23; but in those verses are the ideas "IF YOU CONTINUE", and "be diligent to be found".

Can we still deny that diligence-in-salvation is required of us? What do you think about all this???

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Originally Posted by Gadgeteer

Read, answered; looking forward to your thoughts on Philip1:9-10, a prayer for us to abide in salvation. It continues in chapter 2:

"Do all things without grumbling, THAT you prove yourselves blameless and innocent, children of God ...SO THAT in the day of Christ I may have cause to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain (over you)."

This reads to me as Paul judging his success in terms of our perseverance-in-salvation; how does it read to you?

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9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ;

To me this doesn't read of a prayer of possibly falling out of salvation. This reads as a prayer to avoid sin and grow in Christ. It is my personal experience that at the moment of salvation one doesn't know everything and its a growing process of discernment... as one tears more and more sin out of their life you become more convicted of sin... the sin of omission is pretty much a never ending battle.

The chapter 2 verse you quote simply reads to me to say: "be the best possible Christians you can be and live to bring as much glory to Christ as you possibly can" and really nothing more. I have no idea how one could read into these verses in such a way to think that Paul is suggesting that you could lose salvation. We don't keep salvation based on works... its still grace all the way through!

Gadgeteer, looked through more of your verse references like 1 Tim 4:16 and I get the point you are making and I can understand to a degree why you think the way you do. However, I guess my challenge to you is this.

What is the proof that a man is saved? - Guessing the answer is fruit of the Spirit or doing God's work (Eph 2:10). But for how long? The remainder of the day that you are saved on? How about for the remainder of the week? A good month of not sinning and praising God, is that enough?

What is the proof that man is saved? - Perseverance of fruit over one's life! Again, this needs to be there or one should not think that because of an emotional decision they made at some point of their life that they are saved. Just as James says faith without works is dead, I think Paul is saying faith without perseverance is dead! Now the question we must ask ourselves is if a person who showed what looked like fruit for a time but then quit, were they ever really saved? I would argue no, they had shallow soil and sprouted up what looked like fruit and genuine salvation but eventually ran out of steam and could not persevere when the "problems/temptations" of the world took over.

So in summary, I believe Paul's message regarding perseverance of faith is closely tied with Jame's message of deeds.

Faith without perseverance = not saving faith (thorny and shallow soil)
Faith without works = not saving faith (hardened soil)
Faith with works that perseveres = true faith (good soil)

Paul is simply warning and showing the outward signs of true salvation, much like James does, so that everyone can know what true salvation looks like.

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Originally Posted by keyzer soze

9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ;

To me this doesn't read of a prayer of possibly falling out of salvation.

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Keyzer, before you respond, please read this whole post...

"In order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ" --- doesn't that speak of "persevere in salvation" to you? What about the other "blameless" verses?

"Be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless." 2Pet3:14
"He has reconciled you in His fleshly body ..in order to present you before Him ...blameless ...if indeed you continue in the faith ...and not be moved away from the hope of the gospel..." Col1:21-23

Colossians1:23 reminds me of 1Cor15:2, "...the Gospel ...by which you are saved, if you hold fast the word...". I see a "fallible position" here, where diligence in Christ (in faith) is required of us. "Blameless" is of course being washed clean of our sins, but diligence is required OF us to be found blameless when Jesus returns. If this is not "dwelling in salvation by daily faith", then what does it mean?

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This reads as a prayer to avoid sin and grow in Christ. It is my personal experience that at the moment of salvation one doesn't know everything and it's a growing process of discernment... as one tears more and more sin out of their life you become more convicted of sin... the sin of omission is pretty much a never-ending battle.

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Perhaps; but it's not sin we fight, but rather our focus is on "growing close to Him" (James4:7-10!). The closer we are to Jesus the farther we are from sin; the more our heart is filled with Jesus and the Spirit the less room there is for sin. That is the message I want to teach most -- intimate fellowship with Christ, communion and conversation with Him.

How much time does the average quote-unquote "Christian" spend behind the veil, in joyful conversation with Him?

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The chapter 2 verse you quote simply reads to me to say: "be the best possible Christians you can be and live to bring as much glory to Christ as you possibly can" and really nothing more. I have no idea how one could read into these verses in such a way to think that Paul is suggesting that you could lose salvation.

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Because it says "as you persevere you will save yourselves". And, "they have fallen away from the faith". And "take care lest there be in any of you an unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God, we are partners in Christ IF we hold fast." And "do not fall and fail to enter God's rest by imitating their disobedience and unbelief". And "be diligent to not be sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises". And "abide in Him SO THAT you not shrink-in-shame at His coming". And "building yourselves in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in His love". (1Tim4:16; 1Tim4:1, 1Tim1:19-20 & 2Tim2:18, 1Tim6:10 & 20-21; Gal5:4; Heb3:12-14; Heb4:11; Heb6:11-12; Jude20-21.) There are many more like this.

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We don't keep salvation based on works... it's still grace all the way through!

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No, it's not "grace all the way through" --- it's "by grace through faith". Noted Greek scholar and Bible commentator A.T.Robertson on Eph2:8 says "Grace is God's part, faith is ours". Peter says it's by OUR faith that we receive salvation, 1:1:9. Not works, but "faith, abiding-in-Jesus and His teachings".

Romans1:17 says "the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith" --- the Greek conveys "faith the start, to faith the goal"; from beginning faith to ending faith --- the just shall live BY faith.

Now --- before you answer this post --- there may come a time when two believers have a productive discussion, but it may not be productive to continue. What do I want for you? I want you to grow close to Christ and be more filled with the Spirit every day. I want to be with you and you with me, all of us with Jesus when He returns. If we have fulfilled that honorable quest (and we have!), then it's up to you if we continue, or to just agree to disagree and celebrate Christ together as saved brothers. I believe salvation cannot be "lost"; but one can be deceived to unbelief and falling away --- by worldly philosophy, by demonic influence, and by simple apathy! What happened to Laodicea in Revelation2:14-22! If we are both enthusiastic for God, then we fulfill the Great Commission and embody the love that Scripture says WILL accompany the saved (1Jn4:20-21). The world will see us, and will see Him IN us, and will want what we have. AND --- some day if perhaps you or another participant (or even just a "lurker/reader") has a great temptation, if something we've discussed comes back to mind to STRENGTHEN him or her, then God wins, and we have won a brother or sister. The goal is to be together with Jesus with as great a family as we can gather. There is only one winner in a theological debate --- Jesus, whom we serve!

Never lose sight of the goal!

Your call.

:-)

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Originally Posted by keyzer soze

Gadgeteer, looked through more of your verse references like 1 Tim 4:16 and I get the point you are making and I can understand to a degree why you think the way you do. However, I guess my challenge to you is this.

What is the proof that a man is saved? - Guessing the answer is fruit of the Spirit or doing God's work (Eph 2:10). But for how long? The remainder of the day that you are saved on? How about for the remainder of the week? A good month of not sinning and praising God, is that enough?

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It's not my answer that matters, but those-who-wrote-Scripture. Jude says "keep yourselves in the love of God". Paul says "abide in Christ and His teachings" and "walk in Him". John says "abide in Christ". Peter says "be diligent to be found by Him blameless", and "be diligent to exhibit godly fruit that the gates of God's kingdom be ...supplied to you". In all of these admonitions (and many more just like them), doesn't the possibility of NOT clearly exist?

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What is the proof that man is saved?

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John says (1:5:11-13) that he who HAS the Son has eternal life!

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- Perseverance of fruit over one's life!

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Throughout Scripture, fruit is the evidence of a heart indwelt by Jesus and the Spirit. That's the message of Matt7:16-20!

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Again, this needs to be there or one should not think that because of an emotional decision they made at some point of their life that they are saved. Just as James says faith without works is dead, I think Paul is saying faith without perseverance is dead!

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It's the same thing James says, chapter 2; "faith, if it produces no good works, is dead being by itself." Recognize that most every translation gets James2:14 wrong; with its "me-dunamai" construct, James clearly says:
"That faith (without works) can NOT save you, CAN it!"

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Now the question we must ask ourselves is if a person who showed what looked like fruit for a time but then quit, were they ever really saved? I would argue no, they had shallow soil and sprouted up what looked like fruit and genuine salvation but eventually ran out of steam and could not persevere when the "problems/temptations" of the world took over.

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May we establish one thing here? we've discussed the "soils".

What was Jesus teaching in Luke 8:13-15? Does a soil produce fruit because it's good, and another soil succumbs to temptation/affliction/persecution because it's rocky?

"Ground that drinks the rain ...brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it was tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and ...cursed and burned." Heb6:7-8.

Can we establish once and for all that Hebrews6:7-8 connects to Luke8:13-15? Is there any way to deny it? WITH that connection, it is not the soils which determine the fruit, but one soil (tilled TO produce good fruit!) can produce either good and be blessed, or bad fruit and be cursed and burned.* So this finally and permanently establishes that a soil (any soil!) is called "good" IF if perseveres, and another is called "bad" if it does not persevere. Does everyone accept this to be established, or is there a viable refutation? Fruit determines the soil-label, not soil-type determining the fruit.


* It's the same in Isaiah5, where Israel is a vineyard that was expected to yield good fruit, but it did not.

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So in summary, I believe Paul's message regarding perseverance of faith is closely tied with James' message of deeds.

Faith without perseverance = not saving faith (thorny and shallow soil)
Faith without works = not saving faith (hardened soil)
Faith with works that perseveres = true faith (good soil)

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James' words harmonize with Jesus in Matt7:16-20, and with what I said.

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Paul is simply warning and showing the outward signs of true salvation, much like James does, so that everyone can know what true salvation looks like.

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Salvation is by grace, through faith; AND God prepared good works beforehand that we walk in them --- Eph2:8-10.

A saved heart will have good deeds; an unsaved one will not. However:

"WORK out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose." Php2:11-12

If we do not have voluntary participation in salvation, then we cannot be told to "work out our salvation" --- it would be an already-done-deal. But if works are the consequence of faith, then "work out your salvation", is identical to "abide in Him by faith"!

I meant what I said about admiring you; you are honest and caring --- I pray that I've embodied the same.

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Originally Posted by Gadgeteer

Hi, CFJ! :wave:

I really like your avatar; is that an ostrich egg? Egg-carving is an art. And those look great with a light inside! Ever seen a carved Emu egg? (They're green, just like in Seuss' books!)

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Hi Gadgeteer,

Yes, that's an ostrich egg with a carved/engraved worldmap. I've farmed with ostriches for 5 years and then start producing products (curio-, interior decorating-, promotional- and gift products), mainly lamps, with ostrich eggs and have been doing this since 1995 and I find myself in Oudtshoorn, RSA, also known as Little Jerusalem, because of the Jewish population in earlier years. I know emu eggs, but they are not easy to work on and are not as popular as ostrich eggs.

Regarding your reply to me, I would love to answer you when I've got the time. One of the reasons I have not been doing this till now, is mainly due to the answers keyzer zone and Redeemded by Grace gave you in this thread, which I believe is a good account of my own believes. I'm familiar with most of the views and have been in numerous debates the last 10 years or so. I can see that you're well schooled and enthusiastic in your views and most important, the way in which you present yourself is something to take note of.

However, this is not one of the easiest topics and true Christians have been debating this for decades, even ages and still have not resolved the diffirences. Some tend to focus more on the humane side of responsibility and others tend to mainly look at the Divine side and how God intervene in our lives and not what we can do to please Him. He is the active partner and we the reactive partner. I believe this is why we pray, we pray to be part of God's control and I've never heard a free will prayer that I'm aware of. We really need His sovereign control and I believe, this manifest through the new nature of the new creature, rather than through the free will of man. It is our nature that cannot sin [Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1Jn 3:9)]... and not our free will... [What your corrupt nature wants is contrary to what your spiritual nature wants, and what your spiritual nature wants is contrary to what your corrupt nature wants. They are opposed to each other. As a result, you don't always do what you intend to do. (Gal 5:17)]... and also, [I don't realize what I'm doing. I don't do what I want to do. Instead, I do what I hate. I don't do what I want to do, but I agree that God's standards are good. So I am no longer the one who is doing the things I hate, but sin that lives in me is doing them. I know that nothing good lives in me; that is, nothing good lives in my corrupt nature. Although I have the desire to do what is right, I don't do it. I don't do the good I want to do. Instead, I do the evil that I don't want to do. Now, when I do what I don't want to do, I am no longer the one who is doing it. Sin that lives in me is doing it. (Rom 7:15-20)]

The new creature cannot sin, due to the new nature and it is not you doing sin anymore, it is the sin in your flesh. Your flesh represents your old nature of sin and the Spirit represents your new nature without sin. If free will exists, it can only be before regeneration, because you cannot do what you want to do even as believer and needs a new nature to help you doing God's will. For this very reason Paul told us, [But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (1Co 2:7-8)] The message of the cross is the hidden message only Paul knew and for this reason His main focus was to preach Jesus Christ and Him as being crucified [Joh 17:3; 1Co 1:22-25; 1Co 2:2; Gal 3:1, Gal 6:14; Phi 3:8-10]. The cross is our strenght, the power of God and our means of staying with Christ and I believe the most underestimated demand Christ ever gave us! [And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. (Luk 9:23)]

To live at the right place before God, we can either look at what we must do or we can look at what is already in place. If I focus on God and God only, I will without looking at myself, do the right things. If I look at me, myself, I, -I will lose the plot and hope will perish sooner or later, depending on my God given abilities. With my own abilities I will have to keep the door open myself, while God sits with the key of David and when He open doors, nobody shuts them and if He closes doors, nobody opens them [Rev 3:7]. God's will is mainly about open and closed doors. I truly believe that free will make us stuck, due to a focus on the self and own abilities, which at the end of the day, could take your focus away from God. I have to clarify myself here, that I'm against the doctrine of righteosness in Christ, where they learn that all sin is nailed to the cross (they do not make a distinction between 1.) sin of the flesh which is our own sins coming from the flesh and 2.) a nature of sin which we were born with due to Adam's original sin). It is our sinful nature that is nailed to the cross, not all sin, because sin lives in our flesh and we cannot do as we are pleased to do. This distinction, is critical in our diffirences, because the free will stance use free will to reckon with sin and I truly believe that the correct view of the Bible is that our new nature will reckon with sin. Predestination seems like the only logical conclusion if this two types of sin is true.

You may disagree, which is fine with me, but I assure you, my peace in believing this is complete and the practical evidence ensure this daily and for this very reason will, if at all possible, not debate this to the core of the core, I really am free...

Even if I choose, it is not me doing it, but God working in me for His glory, though it is me working against Him and one learn this through mistakes, to let God work and submit in the dying of the self, by just flowing in His grace (the pinnacle of our existence whilst on earth, by spontaneously without too much reasoning doing God's will). A true Christian wants to be at a place where you don't live and godliness is practised and is the aim of our walk with God. When there is too much reasoning, too much choices you need to make, how can you be an instrument in the hands of the One using you for His glory only? All God wants me to do is to die (flowing in His grace) on a daily basis and He will then live in me, choose for me and do for me [I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal 2:20)]. I am just in God's way of righteosness and needs to die, so that He can live and it is not my own choices or my own words which will enable me to do anything [For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say. (Luk 12:12)], and will also learn us and help us to even pray..., [Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (Rom 8:26)]

With our new nature everything is diffirent and we need to believe this and learn others this mysterious power of God through the cross of Christ, so that He can exalt Himself in every possible way... [The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Rom 8:16-21)]

Our own choices and reason only work till a point..., that point is what we are all trying to find out, which seems to stay a mystery...

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Originally Posted by Gadgeteer

"Hoping they are still saved"?

"I know whom I have believed and am convinced that He is able to guard that which I have entrusted to Him until that day. Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith an dlove which are in Christ Jesus. Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you." 2Tim1:12-14

There is no smoky uncertain "hoping-still-saved". There is both solid assurance, and personal responsibility to guard the treasure of eternal life that God entrusts to us. Guard, by the SPIRIT'S power, not by our power. His power, our faith.

"Retain the standard of sound words" --- doesn't that sound a bit like 1Tim4:16, "Abide in (Jesus') teachings ...to SAVE YOURSELVES"? Am I understanding Paul wrong in these passages?
If it's our faith by which we enter Jesus (1Pet1:9), if Paul says "from beginning faith to ENDING faith" in Rom1:17, if the Galatians "began in the Spirit but ended in the flesh" (Gal3:3), then why is it a difficult concept to understand that we "persevere by constant faith"? Not "why", "how". A man enters by voluntary faith --- the thing is, it's not a one-time-faith, but a lifetime faith. Day by day. That's why there are all these verses that say "ABIDE in Me"... Okay --- "God enters the heart and changes it; salvation is all of God and nothing of men --- regeneration is monergistic".

...so why do we still sin? Isn't God powerful enough to change the heart sufficiently to overcome sin?
What's wrong with God???

What if it's that God enters our hearts through faith, and He abides in us as we abide in Him BY faith? Look again at 2Tim2:

"If we have died with Him we shall also live with Him.
If we endure, we shall also reign with Him.

(BUT)

...if we deny Him, He also will deny us (Matt10:33!).
If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself." 2Tim2:11-13.

The word "BUT" isn't actually there; do you deny that is the message? Is "denying-Him" (which in the Matt10 verse I noted equates to HIM denying US before God) possible? If we are faithless (though He remains faithful) --- is that a possibility, and can we be "faithlessly-SAVED"?

Isn't this a passage that seriously "makes you go 'HHHMMMmmmmmm' "?
When Heb10:35 warns us to "not throw away our confidence", isn't it saying "don't throw away Jesus"? (Connect Heb10:19 and Heb6:19). Then why are we warned to "see if we are still in Christ", 2Cor13:5? Adokimos-disqualified is very much in view. Isn't that the exact same message Peter strove to teach, in 2:1:5-11? So --- again --- why do we sin? What's wrong with God that He doesn't make us strong enough to overcome sin? Are we "new creations", or not? "No one born of God ...sins ...he CANNOT sin because he is born/begotten of God." 1Jn3:9 How does this fit? Praise Him, forever; lift His name above all in the Universe, for He is worthy. Praise Him in the morning, in the evening, every day! But --- can we be deceived by worldy deception into unbelief, and cease praising Him?

That's the issue; what causes our position in Christ --- is "faith" causal or consequential --- and what KEEPS our position?

"KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God (building yourselves in holy faith), awaiting anxiously for the mercy of Christ to eternal life". Jude20-21.

What did Jude mean? Is "not-keeping", possible? http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/fr...smiley-007.gif

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Hey Gadgeteer,

I love ya brother but I think you are either not understanding what salvation is or you are over complicating it... I will say you and the Apostle Peter share the same thought - early on in Peter's understandings, for which Jesus lovingly showed Peter his error in thought.

John 13: 5 Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded. 6 So He came to Simon Peter. He said to Him, Lord, do You wash my feet? 7 Jesus answered and said to him, What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter. 8 Peter said to Him, Never shall You wash my feet! Jesus answered him, If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me. 9 Simon Peter said to Him, Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus said to him, He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you. 11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, Not all of you are clean.

Those who are saved are saved... And when sin comes, they don't need to be saved again, just confess this sin or in effect wash their feet. Jesus told Peter that Peter was Clean... Peter was declared clean by Jesus. Peter didn't realize that at first, thinking he need to do more to be clean. But those who are clean need to wash their dirty feet.... and that is towards their daily sins. But never does it imply that they lost their salvation or need to be saved again. Jesus tested Peter's heart, Give Peter understanding and Peter changed his thought about being saved moving forward.