Calvinism / pre-destination

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Originally Posted by Bandit

Sorry, I've only read through about the first 8 pages of this thread so far. I didn't realize that the topic of discussion had crept from clavinism/predestination to perseverance. But I still think my question is relevant for either topic. So, again, who are the "we" under consideration? Do you think Romans 2:6&7 needs to be taken into account?

God who will render to each one according to his deeds, eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality...

This to me describes a kind of person. And would it be correct to say that a person who no longer continues in doing good is still seeking for glory, honor, and immortality?

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Bandit, not sure how much of what I wrote you have read but my basic position is one of believing in human free-will, however, I believe that our free-will fits INSIDE God's sovereign plan. I do not believe that God's plan is being formed outside of his will. Before the first cause or free-will had any effect, His plan was complete and hence his sovereign will was and always is known to Him. Our free-will is not altering God's plan or causing God to "react" to our choices, our choices fit inside His plan.

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Originally Posted by Bandit

It would have been wise to not eat, but she chose to eat. As far as being a 'no brainer', let the no brainer without sin be the first to cast a stone. We all make wrong choices - but that does not make them non-choices.

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Makes sense to us today, but wasn't the touching the tree the outcome to something else? I mean, if Eve knew Jesus her creator, for He most probably greeter her as the Spirit breathed life into her nostrils as well, and personally introduced her to Adam, her husband... why would she not discern the difference between God's instruction and that of the Serpent... Did she make a choice between God and the serpent, or just followed what the serpent stated because she couldn't discern right from wrong? God gave instruction for obedience, not for choice. And I submit that choice came as a result of sin.

And remember up until this point she was not a sinner, so she did this without sin within her background, so the stone has been cast because of her sin that changed all of creation forever.

Honest question to those in this thread who use the God calls all, God desires all verses to combat the doctrine of election, how do you deal with Romans 5:18 not teaching universal-ism? This is an honest question for anyone for that matter but particularly for those who insist that ALL means ALL in the other verses.


(Rom 5:18 [ESV])
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

here are TSK verses:
John 1:7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. (could be all)
John 3:26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness-look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him.” (can't be all)
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (can't save all)
Acts 13:39 and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. (i think these do mean all)
1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. (seems first is everyone but second can't be)
1Tim 2:4-6 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. (tough verse, here is where the armenian and calvanists fight)
Heb 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (is that literally all or just the saved?)
1John 2:20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. (this surely does not mean non Christians right?)

Wow, maybe I need to start a thread on the meaning of the world ALL/EVERYONE/WORLD because at times it is obvious that it can't be taken literal but at other times it is very difficult to tell and fits both doctrines.... hence why we have debates right? LOL

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Originally Posted by keyzer soze

Not sure what you are asking. I believe that a saved person will persevere just like I believe a saved person will bear fruit or have deeds as James calls it. I believe that both good works and perseverance are PRODUCTS of salvation, not a means to save yourself.
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Hello keyzer soze,

You had said that you were studying Romans, and then you had mentioned Romans 5:9-10. My question is really pretty basic. I have seen people claim that the statements made in various passages imply things like either the predestination of individuals to salvation, or the guarantee of perseverance of the individual, etc. My question is meant to take us back a step and take a closer look at those original statements. To whom were those original statements made? Would there be anything in the context that would tell us to whom (or perhaps, to what kind of person) the original statements were applicable?

I brought up the passage from Romans 2:5-10 because Paul says there that "God will render each man according to his deeds". One kind of person will get eternal life, another kind gets condemnation. Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount speaks of two paths, one leading to eternal life and the other leading to condemnation. I would say that you and I read these passages differently. It would seem that you believe a person walks the narrow path because they are already saved. I believe that a person walks the narrow path to be among the saved. As Paul quoted, God will render to each person according to his deeds: eternal life to one, condemnation to another. This is not the same as saying that each person will do deeds in accordance with God's prior rendering of life or condemnation.

So, as I read the scriptures, if a person wants to be saved, they will begin walking the narrow path that Jesus spoke of (or will begin seeking for glory, honor and immortality as Paul says). I think we just might be in disagreement as to what it takes to be saved, but that is to be determined. And that would be kind of getting away from the original topic of this thread, and I would rather not derail the original topic unless the originator wants to head in that direction. But it does rather intertwine with the topics of election, predestination, and perseverance.

Bandit

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Originally Posted by keyzer soze

In my study of Romans that I am doing I came across the verses of Rom 5:9-10 and I thought they fit perfectly into our discussion.

Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

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Keyzer, "justified" and "sanctified" and "regenerated" (washed) coexist (1Cor6:11). A person cannot be one, without being all three. Now --- look at the real possibility in Hebrews10:29, for a person who was sanctified by Jesus' blood. In no way could he not have been "saved". But he turned back into sin and away from Jesus; by his constant sin he tramples Jesus, insults the Spirit and scorns the very blood that once sanctified him. Not alotta ways OSAS can deal with this verse; perhaps we can try "it's not real, it's hypothetical, fatherly-advice, effective means by which God KEEPS us saved".

I've never understood "effective means" --- why is it needed? Isn't God good enough with His "monergistic regeneration"? Why is something additional needed to persuade us into what should be irresistible???

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For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

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Look at the concept of "reconciled" --- in Col1:21-23, our being reconciled conditions on if we continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not being moved away from (Jesus) the hope of the gospel".

And --- 2Cor5:20, "BE reconciled to God". We cannot be told to "be reconciled", if reconciled is a predestined already-done-deal!

No, it is "WALK in Jesus, walk in reconciliation" -- just as we've discussed Eph4:22-24 is teaching "walk in regeneration"!

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What do you think these 2 verses mean?

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The idea of "while-we-were-enemies" mirrors perfectly Eph2:1-3; when we were dead in our sins Christ died for us --- "potentiality", provision, realized/fulfilled by those WHO believe!

Remember those horrible degenerates in 2Pet2:10-15 -- who, in 2Pet2:1, "were BOUGHT by the Master"!

Yeah, He bought them; provision, fulfillment for believers. "He is the Savior of ALL MEN (provision), specially/above-all believers (fulfillment)." 1Tim4:10.

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Originally Posted by Bandit

Yes, but upon whom has the LORD chosen to have mercy? Is God's choice to have mercy a random one (God picks one person over another with no obvious rationale), or has God indicated how He will choose? (Like perhaps He will choose one kind of person over another, and it is up to the individual to choose what kind of person he will be.) So perhaps there are two choices at work here: God has made His choice as to what kind of persons to save, and we (individually) must choose what kind of person to be. So then, both choices (both His and ours) must align for one to be saved.

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Rom11:32 says God has mercy on all men.

Matt22:2-14 settles it --- "many are called but few are chosen"; the many are everyone (same as Romans5:18-19), everyone they found. The king (representing God) chose nothing, each person decided individually to accept the invitation and change clothes -- decided to become chosen. Jesus was clear in the teaching.

RE what God knows and what God decides --- please see 1Sam23:12. God knew two futures, and let David choose one.

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Originally Posted by keyzer soze

Jesus came to save the sinners not the righteous.

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Excellent --- Matt9:12-13. Now will you (or anyone!) please tell us how that fits with "predestination"?

Sovereign monergistic regeneration has nothing to do with Jesus; it's something God just does. So --- Jesus coming for people who have NOT been regenerated (under Reformed Theology) is worthless, they are incapable of believing.

And Jesus coming for those who are ALREADY regnerated, is equally useless, for they are regenerated and righteous already!

What's the connection?


I submit that the connection is belief --- unregenerated men can believe, Jesus comes to convict men to belief. Belief that receives Him, receives the Spirit and receives regeneration! Perfect connection, consistency, and Scripturally sound. This fits with Titus3:5-6, where regeneration is by the POURED Spirit, "poured" preceding "regeneration", and the Spirit is poured through Jesus our Savior. "Savior" comes first, "poured" follows belief, and regeneration is by the Spirit-who-WAS-POURED.

See "poured", same word ekcheo, in Acts10:45-47, "after belief" in 11:17...

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Originally Posted by keyzer soze

Not sure what you are asking. I believe that a saved person will persevere just like I believe a saved person will bear fruit or have deeds as James calls it. I believe that both good works and perseverance are PRODUCTS of salvation, not a means to save yourself.

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Salvation is the outcome of our faith (1Pet1:9); "perseverance" is just another term for "continued faith".

Found this verse from my church service tonight to be relevant to our discussion of God's role in our perseverance: 18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.[/QUOTE]How are we really tempted, if we are predestined and sovereignly/monergistically regenerated? What is the temptation to?

In Hebrews3, we are warned not to harden our hearts, warned to take care lest we be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin to falling away from the living God; we are partners in Christ IF we hold fast firm until the end.

In James1:14-16 we are tempted when enticed and carried away by our own lust; lust conceived births sin, and sin brings death ("thanatos", death with implication of Hell) --- do not be deceived, beloved brethren.

Whaddya think?

:-)

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Originally Posted by keyzer soze

Honest question to those in this thread who use the God calls all, God desires all verses to combat the doctrine of election, how do you deal with Romans 5:18 not teaching universal-ism? This is an honest question for anyone for that matter but particularly for those who insist that ALL means ALL in the other verses.


(Rom 5:18 [ESV])
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

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Romans5:18-19 makes an exact equality:
SO THEN ...all (condemnation)
EVEN SO ...all (justification).

Justification to life came to the exact same quantity as came condemnation. Now, condemnation came conditionally to BE condemned, men must sin and meet the condition.

Romans5:12 states that all men meet the condition to be condemned!

SO TOO (or should I say "even so"?) justification came conditionally --- to the same quantity, but with a condition. The condition for justification is in verse 17 --- to BE justified, one must receive the abundance of grace and (receive) the gift of righteousness.

Make sense?

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here are TSK verses:
John 1:7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. (could be all)

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How about John 4:42?

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John 3:26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness-look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him.” (can't be all)
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (can't save all)

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The word is "helkuo-draw/DRAG", it's the same word in John6:44. Ya' can lead a horse to water, but ya' can't make him drink.

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Acts 13:39 and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. (i think these do mean all)
1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. (seems first is everyone but second can't be)

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All ARE made alive, provision --- same as He bought even those horrible degenerates in 2Pet2:1-10.

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1Tim 2:4-6 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. (tough verse, here is where the armenian and calvanists fight)

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There is no fight; "all men" here includes kings and ALL AUTHORITY, clearly exceeds the scope of who WILL be saved. Has to mean "everyone".

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Heb 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (is that literally all or just the saved?)

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All; all died through Adam, all shall be made alive through Jesus (1Cor15:22). "All" provision, realized for the saved.

"He is the Savior of ALL MEN (provision), specially/above-all (malista) believers (fulfillment)." 1Tim4:10.

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1John 2:20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. (this surely does not mean non Christians right?)

Wow, maybe I need to start a thread on the meaning of the world ALL/EVERYONE/WORLD because at times it is obvious that it can't be taken literal but at other times it is very difficult to tell and fits both doctrines.... hence why we have debates right? LOL

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What do you think now, Keyzer? Can you find errors here?

:-)

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Originally Posted by keyzer soze

Bandit, not sure how much of what I wrote you have read but my basic position is one of believing in human free-will, however, I believe that our free-will fits INSIDE God's sovereign plan. I do not believe that God's plan is being formed outside of his will. Before the first cause or free-will had any effect, His plan was complete and hence his sovereign will was and always is known to Him. Our free-will is not altering God's plan or causing God to "react" to our choices, our choices fit inside His plan.

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KS,

Does God make his choices based on His attributes or based on His character?

Grace and peace,

Mark

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Originally Posted by Gadgeteer

Romans5:18-19 makes an exact equality:
SO THEN ...all (condemnation)
EVEN SO ...all (justification).

Justification to life came to the exact same quantity as came condemnation. Now, condemnation came conditionally to BE condemned, men must sin and meet the condition.

Romans5:12 states that all men meet the condition to be condemned!

SO TOO (or should I say "even so"?) justification came conditionally --- to the same quantity, but with a condition. The condition for justification is in verse 17 --- to BE justified, one must receive the abundance of grace and (receive) the gift of righteousness.

Make sense?
How about John 4:42?
The word is "helkuo-draw/DRAG", it's the same word in John6:44. Ya' can lead a horse to water, but ya' can't make him drink.
All ARE made alive, provision --- same as He bought even those horrible degenerates in 2Pet2:1-10.
There is no fight; "all men" here includes kings and ALL AUTHORITY, clearly exceeds the scope of who WILL be saved. Has to mean "everyone".
All; all died through Adam, all shall be made alive through Jesus (1Cor15:22). "All" provision, realized for the saved.

"He is the Savior of ALL MEN (provision), specially/above-all (malista) believers (fulfillment)." 1Tim4:10.
What do you think now, Keyzer? Can you find errors here?

:-)

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Errors, I don't think anyone can find errors about a person's opinions. You claim the all to be conditional in 5:18 but not in other places. I am sure others have different opinions. I have heard people claim that some of the ALL and EVERYONE to mean jews and gentiles because the jews thought Christ would be only for them. So ALL means men of every nation and race, not literally every human to them. Ties in with verse God is not a respecter of persons. But you can see where this would have a different meaning then the 2 options that you seem to use which is either literally ALL or conditional ALL which can never get further then being an opinion. This is all I have time for, you have far too many questions up there to get to before work. If you want to narrow something down to 1 or 2 questions I might have time during the work day today to address.

Have a good day.

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Originally Posted by Brother Mark

KS,

Does God make his choices based on His attributes or based on His character?

Grace and peace,

Mark

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Not sure I know the difference between the 2 or where you are going with this.

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Originally Posted by Brother Mark

KS,

Does God make his choices based on His attributes or based on His character?

Grace and peace,

Mark

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Hi Mark,

Does God even make choices? I submit for consideration that He purposes. Man makes choices based on learnings, IE man states A is better than B because... reason. But God doesn't choose one over another, He purposes, determines, wills, declares.

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Originally Posted by keyzer soze

Not sure I know the difference between the 2 or where you are going with this.

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Jesus is 100% God. But when he was in human form, was he in all places at one time? God is omnipresent, but that's an attribute. Not his character.

Let me give a human example. Let's say a man is 6' tall, can run the 40 yard dash in 4.3 seconds, weighs 230 lbs and is muscular. He is smart and has a 4.0 GPA from a very prestigious school. Have I told you anything at all about the character of the man? No. But I have described his attributes.

Attributes are abilities that one has or the power one has etc. What profession will the man go into? How will he behave? What choices will he make? Will he play sports or will he go into the business world? How will he make his living? (Do you have enough information to know the answer to these questions?)

The questions above are rhetorical and no answer is needed. Just trying to explain attributes vs character. I didn't tell you about his character at all.

Character traits/desire/heart issues... the man is full of compassion. He deeply desires to help people. He loves helping the sick. Since he was a child, he has studied biology because of a great desire to help a family member who was sick. For fun, he played sports.

Attributes describe ability, what we can do, etc. Character describes who we are on the inside, our deepest heart felt convictions, who we are, etc.

When Jesus came, he laid aside some of his attributes, but none of his character. See what I mean?

With that in mind, does God make choices based on His attributes or based on His character (i.e. His heart)?

Grace to you,

Mark

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Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace

Hi Mark,

Does God even make choices? I submit for consideration that He purposes. Man makes choices based on learnings, IE man states A is better than B because... reason. But God doesn't choose one over another, He purposes, determines, wills, declares.

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I understand what you are saying. However, scripture does use the term choice. However, not in the since that he choose man A over man B but rather that he chooses to save or not save man A. God has stated he does not think like a man so we have to be careful to keep that in mind when reading the scriptures and that is the point I see you making. But laying all that aside for the moment, and granting you the "purpose" mindset...

Does God purpose based on His attributes or based on His character/heart?