Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Watchman
Love requires that one choose to look away from themselves toward others, or toward another...love requires a choice. IME, the crux of the matter re: Calvinism and the TULIPians is our free will...whether we have it.
blessings,
Watchman :)
Hi Watchman,
I take it that you own many of John Calvin's writings; have studied all of his teachings; and thus have learned authority to say that Calvinism doesn't teach that man can't chose, because that is what John Calvin advocates? Personally, I can't defend or refute what John Calvin wrote, because I don't own any of his writing or works, but it sound like you do?
If however, you don't own any of his works or have not even read any of his sermons, then wouldn't it be wrong to declare what he teaches as truth? So if you do have something he wrote that declares the will of man is void in coming to Jesus, I'd like to read that for myself and would appreciate a reference to that point.
Thanks!
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
keyzer soze
Simply put I believe our free-will exists inside of God's sovereign will. I too have thought long and hard about this and I believe this is about all the closer I can get to "the answer". God is big, REALLY, REALLY BIG, and our minds are NOT big enough by design to comprehend God's will. If you want proof pick up the bible and read through it. You will find story after story where people simply don't see the bigger picture of God's plan. We get to see it because we get to see the past written out in the bible. I believe the issue of our free-will and God's sovereign plan is a paradox to us, too big to figure out and it was meant to be that way.
Few truths that I believe in that seem to be at conflict with each other but I believe to be biblical and thus true regardless of my inability to fit it all together neatly:
1 - I have free-will to choose
2 - God is ultimately in control of all things and NOTHING happens outside of his sovereign plan
3 - God does not initiate or create sin
4 - Sin is real and happens through our free-will
5 - God saves, we don't
6 - We are responsible for choosing or rejecting God (seems to be in conflict with point 5 but I believe both to be biblical truths and I trust God that they are both true)
7 - God loves ALL (can be hard to grasp when viewed next to point 5 but I believe it is biblical none-the-less)
8 - Everything in the end is for the glory of Jesus, even the dark stuff that we can't fathom how good can come of it somehow glorifies God in His sovereign plan
Biggest hurdle for me was to quit trying to rationalize everything around human life and grasp the concept that all of creation was truly for CHRIST and not ME or us on an individual basis. Once you start to view theology and philosophy through CHRIST'S purpose and not your own, a lot of the bigger hurdles get a lot smaller or go away. At times I lose this focus and veer back into trying to rationalize everything to myself and I think when you do that you will run into a brick wall hard and possibly become confused and flustered.
I think it is good every now and then to return to Romans 11 and be reminded of why creation and life exists at all... its not for us, its for HIM.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Nicely put, KS!
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenris
Generally those who believe in it also think that they're one of those lucky ones predestined to be saved.
Hi Fenris.... But isn't this a matter of opinion? If every man who believed, say they chose to one day find out that they were called when they exercised faith, does that negate their choice?
If you were to move from NY as a teen and then live in LA for the rest of your life, carrying with you accent and traditions, and sports teams with you.... wouldn't it still be fair to say you are a New Yorker, even though most of your life were lived in LA? Both would be correct, wouldn't they? So which would be right? Both. If one comes to faith in Jesus and finds that one day it was Jesus who drew him to Himself, why can't he be called of the elect, yet he chose that one day long ago?
As a Jew, God chose the nation to show the world who He is, yet the Jew chose to reject Jesus His Son. There is a choice there, is there not? Conversely, you have a choice to believe that He is the Messiah come!
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Watchman
Love requires that one choose to look away from themselves toward others, or toward another...love requires a choice. IME, the crux of the matter re: Calvinism and the TULIPians is our free will...whether we have it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Redeemed by Grace
I take it that you own many of John Calvin's writings; have studied all of his teachings; and thus have learned authority to say that Calvinism doesn't teach that man can't chose, because that is what John Calvin advocates? Personally, I can't defend or refute what John Calvin wrote, because I don't own any of his writing or works, but it sound like you do?
If however, you don't own any of his works or have not even read any of his sermons, then wouldn't it be wrong to declare what he teaches as truth? So if you do have something he wrote that declares the will of man is void in coming to Jesus, I'd like to read that for myself and would appreciate a reference to that point.
Hi Redeemed by Grace,
I suspect you misunderstood both the intent and content of my post. My statement re: Calvinism was with reference to my personal experience in discussions about it. In my experience (IME), the debate always seems to come down to whether we have free will or not. Regarding my reading of Calvin, yes, I've read some of his works, but do not have any in my personal library. Here's a link you might find useful, though. It contains many of his writings.
Please look at my statement again. I represented nothing Calvin himself actually taught. In fact, I mentioned the sphere of adherents who claim to follow Calvin's teachings. They have been coined, Calvinists. I was speaking to my discussions with Calvinists...which does not, of necessity, reference the actual teachings of Calvin. Further, I offered no remark regarding the veracity of what Calvin taught. My reading of him indicates he believed the will of man had a role and a certain amount of freedom; however, its been awhile since I did that reading, so I could be misremembering. At any rate, if I reference a teaching of Calvin's, I'll say so...likewise, if I reference a teaching of Calvinists, I'll use that term. The two aren't necessarily the same--just as the teachings of John Wesley and the Methodist Church aren't necessarily the same. Hope that makes sense. Enjoy the link...there's a ton of good stuff on that site!
blessings,
Watchman :)
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Earlier in the thread I posted some truths that I believe in that seem at odds with each other. I believe this to be the case because of the difference between myself and God much like I would expect a young child to see conflict between truths that a parent tells them. List #1 is difficult to understand through the mind of a human, list #2 is difficult through the mind of a child. I believe list #1 and #2 to be perfectly logical and truthful through the mind of God and a parent respectively.
Few truths that I believe in that seem to be at conflict with each other but I believe to be biblical and thus true regardless of my inability to fit it all together neatly:
1 - I have free-will to choose
2 - God is ultimately in control of all things and NOTHING happens outside of his sovereign plan
3 - God does not initiate or create sin
4 - Sin is real and happens through our free-will
5 - God saves, we don't
6 - We are responsible for choosing or rejecting God (seems to be in conflict with point 5 but I believe both to be biblical truths and I trust God that they are both true)
7 - God loves ALL (can be hard to grasp when viewed next to point 5 but I believe it is biblical none-the-less)
8 - Everything in the end is for the glory of Jesus, even the dark stuff that we can't fathom how good can come of it somehow glorifies God in His sovereign plan
Here are truths that I would have written about my parents as a young child
1 - My parents love me so much
2 - My parents want me to succeed and praise me when I do
3 - My parents seem to want to push me to the point where I fail and encourage me to not give up when I do fail (seems to be at odds with #2)
4 - My parents want me to treat all adults with respect because they are my elders
5 - Yet my parents never want me to talk to strangers (seems to be at odds with #4)
6 - My parents want me to try new vegetables even though I hate all those green foods! They tell me that I won't know that I don't like it until I try it!
7 - My parents tell me to never try drugs even though the kids say I will like it.
8 - My parents tell me I need to learn how to clean my room and take care of myself
9 - My parents never want me to leave their sight in public place
10 - I am to treat all the kids at school kindly because they are loved by God
11 - I am not allowed to hang out with the popular kids because my parents say they are a bad influence (seems at odds with #10)
12 - My parents always tell me that the things I am not allowed to do is because they don't want me to get hurt or fall and break a bone.
13 - When I get in big trouble my parents spank me which hurts (wish they would follow their own rules, see #12)
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
keyzer soze
Earlier in the thread I posted some truths that I believe in that seem at odds with each other. I believe this to be the case because of the difference between myself and God much like I would expect a young child to see conflict between truths that a parent tells them. List #1 is difficult to understand through the mind of a human, list #2 is difficult through the mind of a child. I believe list #1 and #2 to be perfectly logical and truthful through the mind of God and a parent respectively.
Few truths that I believe in that seem to be at conflict with each other but I believe to be biblical and thus true regardless of my inability to fit it all together neatly:
1 - I have free-will to choose
2 - God is ultimately in control of all things and NOTHING happens outside of his sovereign plan
The first 2 things on your list don't just seem to be contradictory but clearly are contradictory. The second point means that it's really God who chooses everything that happens, does it not? If so then in that case man could not have free will to choose since his choices will have already been made for him by God. If God chooses everything and determines everything that happens then there is nothing left for man to choose.
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
John146
The first 2 things on your list don't just seem to be contradictory but clearly are contradictory. The second point means that it's really God who chooses everything that happens, does it not? If so then in that case man could not have free will to choose since his choices will have already been made for him by God. If God chooses everything and determines everything that happens then there is nothing left for man to choose.
I agree that you and I disagree on this point and that we have different definitions of God's sovereignty. We have discussed this at length and I respectfully disagree with you on this. Not sure what else I can say since my whole point was that points 1 and 2 seem contradictory to me but being that I believe both to be biblical and I trust God I can believe both to be true.
Let me give you a few more examples of why I believe this below:
1) Thou shalt not kill.
2) He said, “Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you.” (seems contrary to #1)
3) We utterly destroyed them, as we did to Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women and children of every city. (seems to contradict #1 as well)
Pretty sure my examples are poor so please don't put too much emphasis on them other then the simple point that I could find contradiction in God commanding Abraham to kill his son and the commandment "Though shall not kill" or I can put my trust in God that both are true. 1) we should not kill people 2) if God asks me to kill for Him it is not sinful
I get this is a stretch and might aggravate you more then prove a point but I guess my simple point is that even though I AGREE with you that human free-will and God's sovereignty seem at odds with each other, I believe I can trust God that they are NOT at odds from His perspective which is the only perspective that matters. I mean don't you think that Abraham would have been in sound mind to think that he must have this wrong because there is no way God could ask him to kill his son? Or don't you think it would have been easy of the Israelites to rebuke Joshua for telling them that God wants them to kill every last woman and child in the promise land? Surely they could have stood up and said, "That is totally against what we know of God because these children are INNOCENT and without sin, to kill them is against the very nature of God's mercy so we refuse to believe that God could command this!"
At the end of the day it's God's plan and his sovereign will that is the purpose of creation, not my free-will. If you go back to the O.T. and think about the thousands of children and babies that were slaughtered in the book of Joshua it would make NO SENSE from the human perspective.... however, I believe we are to look at creation and everything in it from and for God's perspective.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex_C
I was wondering what people thought about this doctrine. I find it quite disturbing, as it appears to implie that there is no such thing as free will. Some people are chosen, pre-destined to be saved, whereas others are not. Things like irresistible grace I just cannot get my head around. I think it is at least partly because I am very new to all this, and envy some people their doctrinal certainty. I am not yet in that place of full assurance.
This is my personal understanding. Jesus does have to draw us (John 12:32) and the Spirit does have to convict us (John 16:8), and once convicted, God does have to open our hearts to respond to the gospel (Acts 16:14). So, it appears we have the “free will” to respond to the conviction of the Spirit and repent, be sorry for our sinfulness, and recognize our lost state but we need God’s direct intervention on our hearts to be able to respond to the gospel. In that sense, we don’t have “free will” to respond positively to the gospel. We can’t unless our hearts are soft enough for the message of God to penetrate. Those whose hearts are soft are “chosen” by God to be saved and He opens their hearts to the gospel message. I think that’s why it can be said, “as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48). They’re appointed in that moment that the Father sees their soft heart and chooses them to respond to the gospel message. At this point, I think, grace is irresistible. But before that time, the drawing of Jesus can be resisted with a prideful, stubborn heart. When they believe, they are baptized into the body of Christ. As a member of the Body, the believer is entitled to all the things the Body has been predestined to receive: to be adopted, to be conformed to His image, to be justified, to be glorified, etc.
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
keyzer soze
I agree that you and I disagree on this point and that we have different definitions of God's sovereignty. We have discussed this at length and I respectfully disagree with you on this. Not sure what else I can say since my whole point was that points 1 and 2 seem contradictory to me but being that I believe both to be biblical and I trust God I can believe both to be true.
You explain the apparent contradiction by saying that it can't be explained but it's a mystery and you're comfortable with that. But I can't accept that and I'm not comfortable with that at all. Why would the Bible contain so many passages that relate to this issue if we weren't meant to understand the truth of the matter rather than it remaining a mystery? I don't believe that makes any sense.
Quote:
Let me give you a few more examples of why I believe this below:
1) Thou shalt not kill.
2) He said, “Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you.” (seems contrary to #1)
It's not contrary if you take these in the proper context. The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" means thou shalt not kill another person unless God tells you to for some reason (which obviously would be a good reason if He's telling you to do it). To read it as if it says to not kill under any circumstances is taking it out of context and causes a contradiction with other scripture.
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Pretty sure my examples are poor
Sorry, but I have to agree. But I do appreciate the effort you're making to explain your view.
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so please don't put too much emphasis on them other then the simple point that I could find contradiction in God commanding Abraham to kill his son and the commandment "Though shall not kill" or I can put my trust in God that both are true. 1) we should not kill people 2) if God asks me to kill for Him it is not sinful
You can find apparent contradictions throughout the Bible if you never look at the context, but that doesn't mean you can't find the truth if you look beyond the surface. For example, people draw conclusions from Romans 9 that it has something to do with Jacob being elected to salvation and Esau not being elected to salvation without realizing that the OT text Paul was referencing in relation to Jacob and Esau spoke of them in terms of the nations that would descend from them rather than being about them individually. If you study the context of these apparently contradictory passages you can find out what they really mean and discover there is no contradiction and no mystery to it, after all.
Quote:
I get this is a stretch and might aggravate you more then prove a point but I guess my simple point is that even though I AGREE with you that human free-will and God's sovereignty seem at odds with each other, I believe I can trust God that they are NOT at odds from His perspective which is the only perspective that matters.
I'm a bit confused as to how you can come to this conclusion, though. If two things seem to contradict each other my first inclination is definitely not to assume that they must be true and it just is a mystery that can't be explained. No, my first inclination is to study those things even further and try to get them to reconcile and no longer contradict each other. When you just chalk it up as a mystery that comes across to me as a cop out (as I've said before with no offense intended as you might recall).
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I mean don't you think that Abraham would have been in sound mind to think that he must have this wrong because there is no way God could ask him to kill his son?
Well, he was human so that thought may have crossed his mind, but Abraham believed that God could resurrect the dead so because of that belief he easily could have assumed that God would resurrect Isaac from the dead. And because he had strong faith in God he could have assumed that God had a good reason for it regardless of what that reason was, so I see no reason to think that he would have thought that something was wrong as if God was making a mistake. His faith in God was too strong for him to come to that conclusion.
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Or don't you think it would have been easy of the Israelites to rebuke Joshua for telling them that God wants them to kill every last woman and child in the promise land?
Not if they properly understood the real meaning of the commandment to not kill.
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Surely they could have stood up and said, "That is totally against what we know of God because these children are INNOCENT and without sin, to kill them is against the very nature of God's mercy so we refuse to believe that God could command this!"
But they knew better than that because Joshua had proven himself as a prophet of God. So, they had no reason to think he was mistaken. And, why would we assume that they wouldn't have understood that they commandment not to kill had to do with not taking it upon yourself to kill a person since vengeance is the Lord's but that if God told you to kill someone for whatever reason then the commandment did not apply to that scenario?
Quote:
At the end of the day it's God's plan and his sovereign will that is the purpose of creation, not my free-will.
Of course, but what if part of His plan and sovereign will was to give you free will? Would that make Him any less in control and sovereign? I don't believe so because He would be the one who made things that way, not man. Man would simply then have to choose using free will because God sovereignly made it that way rather than man telling God to make it that way.
Quote:
If you go back to the O.T. and think about the thousands of children and babies that were slaughtered in the book of Joshua it would make NO SENSE from the human perspective.... however, I believe we are to look at creation and everything in it from and for God's perspective.
Of course. And God's perspective is that He wants everyone to repent so with that in mind why would He not give everyone the ability and opportunity to do so?
Quote:
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
You have to be careful about misapplying that passage. Is it saying that there isn't anything we can know about God and His ways? Of course not! The Bible is full of explanations of God's ways and why He does things, right? So, it can't be saying that. But we can't fully understand God and His ways. That's what the passage is saying, but that doesn't mean we can't understand His judgments and His ways at all. Of course we can or else they wouldn't be described in scripture. There's no mystery about who God wants to repent and who He wants to be saved. Scripture is clear that He wants all people to repent and to be saved. But some of your other conclusions contradict those things. So, how do you handle that? You say the contradictory things are both true and it's just a mystery that we can't understand. Again, I can't accept that.
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Watchman
Hi Redeemed by Grace,
I suspect you misunderstood both the intent and content of my post. My statement re: Calvinism was with reference to my personal experience in discussions about it. In my experience (IME), the debate always seems to come down to whether we have free will or not.
Hi Watchman,
Thanks for the reply... True story... I was driving today and was the 5th car in line at a traffic light that was red, with about 5 cars behind me, when all of the sudden an SUV that was about the 10th car in line behind me going the same direction as all the 9 cars in front of him, crossed over the yellow line to head down the road to get into the left turn lane that started about were my car was positioned.
The left turning lane was again red when this SUV got to the signal and without hesitation --- proceeded to make the left turn against the signal. Fortunately, there were no oncoming vehicle that he would have cut off. I guess by my personal experience that crossing over the double yellow line to get into the left turning lane and to make that turn against that light is legal and acceptable to do?
Naw... for we all [should] know that that is not correct. I'd like to suggest the same can be stated about ones experiences being acceptable when it come to characterize a doctrinal position that is solely based on experience. Now my opinion is that I don't think Calvinism precludes ones ability to make a choice, for which is why I asked for the reference if you do say that it does... then both of us would be able to agree that Calvinism declares that man can't decide.
But I hold to the tenet that Proverbs 16:9 says succinctly... The mind of a man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps. We think and plan and do, even to make choices in life, yet all are within the sovereignty of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Watchman
Regarding my reading of Calvin, yes, I've read
some of his works, but do not have any in my personal library.
Here's a link you might find useful, though. It contains many of his writings.
If I may jest with you... then you'd be more of a 'Calvinist' than I... for I haven't yet read any of his writings as of yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Watchman
Please look at my statement again. I represented nothing Calvin himself actually taught. In fact, I mentioned the sphere of adherents who claim to follow Calvin's teachings. They have been coined, Calvinists. I was speaking to my discussions with Calvinists...which does not, of necessity, reference the actual teachings of Calvin. Further, I offered no remark regarding the veracity of what Calvin taught. My reading of him indicates he believed the will of man had a role and a certain amount of freedom; however, its been awhile since I did that reading, so I could be misremembering. At any rate, if I reference a teaching of Calvin's, I'll say so...likewise, if I reference a teaching of Calvinists, I'll use that term. The two aren't necessarily the same--just as the teachings of John Wesley and the Methodist Church aren't necessarily the same. Hope that makes sense. Enjoy the link...there's a ton of good stuff on that site!
blessings,
Watchman :)
Thanks... My comments were to see of your experience = the tenets of Calvinism, and if so, where might I research to read and see for myself. Again, I don't think Calvinism teaches that man cannot make choices in life, or doesn't have the ability to think or plan, but if it does teach that man cannot make choices, then all I wanted to know where was that written by him, and not about him.
Blessings...
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
John146
You explain the apparent contradiction by saying that it can't be explained but it's a mystery and you're comfortable with that. But I can't accept that and I'm not comfortable with that at all. Why would the Bible contain so many passages that relate to this issue if we weren't meant to understand the truth of the matter rather than it remaining a mystery? I don't believe that makes any sense.
Who wrote the book of Genesis? God or Moses?
In the same way that I see the bible as being BOTH God breathed and written by man I see man having free-will and God sovereign will going hand in hand.
Could Moses have written any word differently? Did Moses or any of the other authors have any free-will in writing the bible? Did they use their own personal memories, experiences or personality in writing the bible? Did God see to it that it was written exactly as He wanted it written? I see these as being in conflict in the same way as I see free-will and sovereign will in conflict but I trust both to be true.
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Redeemed by Grace
If I may jest with you... then you'd be more of a 'Calvinist' than I... for I haven't yet read any of his writings as of yet.
Jest away...I'm often better at jesting than at serious discussion! :yes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace
My comments were to see of your experience = the tenets of Calvinism, and if so, where might I research to read and see for myself. Again, I don't think Calvinism teaches that man cannot make choices in life, or doesn't have the ability to think or plan, but if it does teach that man cannot make choices, then all I wanted to know where was that written by him, and not about him.
Have a look at the link I provided...LOTS of his writings there! Be prepared, though, to read slowly. :spin:
blessings,
W :)
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Watchman
Jest away...I'm often better at jesting than at serious discussion! :yes:
Have a look at the link I provided...LOTS of his writings there! Be prepared, though, to read slowly. :spin:
blessings,
W :)
Wow!!!! Man there are a lot of writings there... I might as well say so long and farewell now... for it looks like it will take me years to read through.
Thanks, for if they authenticate to be from his pen, then it be nice to know what he actually has proclaimed.
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Watchman
Jest away...I'm often better at jesting than at serious discussion! :yes:
Have a look at the link I provided...LOTS of his writings there! Be prepared, though, to read slowly. :spin:
blessings,
W :)
So Quickly... went to your website and found Calvin's writings... thank you... and started with the one on PRAYER...
Here is an excerpt of the 1st Chapter, the 1st two pages:
Of Prayer
John Calvin
1.
FROM the previous part of the work we clearly see how completely destitute man is of
all good, how devoid of every means of procuring his own salvation. Hence, if he would
obtain succour in his necessity, he must go beyond himself, and procure it in some other
quarter. It has farther been shown that the Lord kindly and spontaneously manifests himself
in Christ, in whom he offers all happiness for our misery, all abundance for our want,
opening up the treasures of heaven to us, so that we may turn with full faith to his beloved
Son, depend upon him with full expectation, rest in him, and cleave to him with full hope.
This, indeed, is that secret and hidden philosophy which cannot be learned by syllogisms:
a philosophy thoroughly understood by those whose eyes God has so opened as to see light
in his light (Ps. 36:9). But after we have learned by faith to know that whatever is necessary
for us or defective in us is supplied in God and in our Lord Jesus Christ, in whom it hath
pleased the Father that all fulness should dwell, that we may thence draw as from an inexhaustible
fountain, it remains for us to seek and in prayer implore of him what we have
learned to be in him. To know God as the sovereign disposer of all good, inviting us to
present our requests, and yet not to approach or ask of him, were so far from availing us,
that it were just as if one told of a treasure were to allow it to remain buried in the ground.
Hence the Apostle, to show that a faith unaccompanied with prayer to God cannot be
genuine, states this to be the order: As faith springs from the Gospel, so by faith our hearts
are framed to call upon the name of God (Rom. 10:14). And this is the very thing which he
had expressed some time before, viz., that the Spirit of adoption, which seals the testimony
of the Gospel on our hearts, gives us courage to make our requests known unto God, calls
forth groanings which cannot be uttered, and enables us to cry, Abba, Father (Rom. 8:26).
This last point, as we have hitherto only touched upon it slightly in passing, must now be
treated more fully.
7
Of Prayer.
2.
To prayer, then, are we indebted for penetrating to those riches which are treasured up
for us with our heavenly Father? For there is a kind of intercourse between God and men,
by which, having entered the upper sanctuary, they appear before Him and appeal to his
promises, that when necessity requires they may learn by experiences that what they believed
merely on the authority of his word was not in vain. Accordingly, we see that nothing is set
before us as an object of expectation from the Lord which we are not enjoined to ask of Him
in prayer, so true it is that prayer digs up those treasures which the Gospel of our Lord discovers
to the eye of faith. The necessity and utility of this exercise of prayer no words can
sufficiently express. Assuredly it is not without cause our heavenly Father declares that our
only safety is in calling upon his name, since by it we invoke the presence of his providence
to watch over our interests, of his power to sustain us when weak and almost fainting, of
his goodness to receive us into favour, though miserably loaded with sin; in fine, call upon
him to manifest himself to us in all his perfections. Hence, admirable peace and tranquillity
are given to our consciences; for the straits by which we were pressed being laid before the
Lord, we rest fully satisfied with the assurance that none of our evils are unknown to him,
and that he is both able and willing to make the best provision for us.
8
First blush seems to say that we are very needy to engage our will to pray.... So so far, not in disagreement, nor am I finding the tenet that he is preach that man does not have liberty of choosing....
But again... theses are just 2 pages of many.... I'll keep looking... :)
Drat!!!!! Now I can't claim I never read any of Calvin's works any longer..... :P
Re: Calvinism / pre-destination
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Redeemed by Grace
Thanks, for if they authenticate to be from his pen, then it be nice to know what he actually has proclaimed.
As I said, I've discussed with a lot of Calvinists...but they may not be saying the same things Calvin said. It has been several years since I read some of his works, but I remember agreeing with the bulk of what he wrote. Enjoy!
W :)
PS: as you can see, there are a lot more writings there than just bro Calvin's!
