Re: "Elect" --- predestined, or just "saved"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gadgeteer
Keyzer, Jesus said (John15:5) "apart from Me you can do nothing". Everyone agrees that Jesus had to die because we are fallen; there is no goodness inherent in us. "Inherent goodness" is called "Pelagianism", and SOME inherent goodness is "Semi-Pelagianism". If we could be good, Jesus would not have had to made the ultimate sacrifice; He did what weak flesh could not. (Rom8:3)
The question is simply "Does God desire and sincerely/effectively call everyone to salvation?"
The way this question is worded, the answer is no. If you has just stated Does God desire everyone to repent and believe, then the answer would be yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gadgeteer
Because --- men are conscious, and "Love does not demand its own way". God is LOVE --- love can only ask to be returned, else it is not "love".
(Ever see the movie, "The Stepford Wives"???) :eek:
We are not saved by God's grace. Do you understand that?
Whoa... I'm in violent disagreement with what you just stated...
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Can't be any clearer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gadgeteer
We are saved by God's grace, through our faith. Equally at issue in this whole topic, is the question of "where does saving-faith come from?"
You have added 'our' to faith when the words declare that grace and faith are not of ourselves... but are the gift of God.. Grace and faith are tied as one, and is the object of the subject God in bestowing the gift. There is no English nor Greek word that states or introduces by implication that faith is man's, for again the subject is God's gift of the object grace through faith, which are God's and not man's. Thus grammatically, the our faith is being supplied through eisegesis.
So sorry my brother, but I disagree with you big time here. :)
Re: "Elect" --- predestined, or just "saved"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
glad4mercy
I'm confused. What happened?
Oh, it's just me; I saw your quote of my post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadget
Also --- with Bathsheba, because David repented he did not die. God willed the incident; He did not write the wickedness into men's hearts.
...and I thought, "Oh no, I didn't really write that God willed David's adultery, did I???" The "quote" function removed the separation between "did not die", and "God willed the incident". Thought I had messed up, but (whew) I didn't! :-D
The rest was just expanding on the 1Samuel23:12 verse; God saw two futures and allowed David to choose one. Of course David chose the one where he was not captured. It's a good example of the difference between God knowing the future, and God determining the future...
Re: "Elect" --- predestined, or just "saved"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Redeemed by Grace
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadget
The question is simply "Does God desire and sincerely/effectively call everyone to salvation?"
The way this question is worded, the answer is no. If you has just stated Does God desire everyone to repent and believe, then the answer would be yes.
Is God schizophrenic, "Redeemed"? He desires something different than He ordains and causes?
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadget
We are not saved by God's grace. Do you understand that?
We are saved by God's grace, through our faith.
Whoa... I'm in violent disagreement with what you just stated...
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Can't be any clearer.
It is clear --- but not to those who raise "faith" up to a second subject. "Dia pistis" is a prepositional phrase, and cannot be any kind of subject. There is one subject, the entire opening phrase:
"By-grace-through-faith-have-you-been-saved".
That's the subject. New American Standard calls it "THAT SALVATION", footnoting the word "that". There are five modifiers:
1. (That salvation) by grace
2. (That salvation) through faith
3. (That salvation) not of yourselves
4. (That salvation) gift of God
5. (That salvation) not by works
In no way is Paul asserting that "FAITH" is gifted by God alongside of "grace". On Eph2:8, noted Greek scholar and Bible commentator A.T.Robertson said, "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."
If "saving-faith" was something God gave TO a few of us, then He could not be leading ALL to repentance and those who refuse store up wrath for themselves, Rom2:4-8.
If "saving-faith" moved in direction from God towards man, God could not receive faith in Heb11:6 and Acts10:34-35.
If "saving-faith" came from God and not from men, Peter would not have said "the outcome of YOUR FAITH (is) salvation". Jesus would not have used "heurisko", few are those who find salvation by diligently seeking Matt7:14. Jesus would not have called those WHO believe wise, and those WHO believe foolish, Matt7:24-27.
Saving-faith could not come from CONVICTION on studying Scripture (1Tim3:15), and in the same way Jesus would not have rebuked those who studied Scripture but REFUSED to believe (Jn5:39-47).
Nowhere is "saving-faith" given TO us FROM God --- His position is to RECEIVE the faith of those who COME.
God's justice is in response to faith in Rom3:26. Further, men can be persuaded to faith -- Jn10:38, Jn20:29, Jn20:31, and especially Acts26:28-29! How can someone be persuaded to faith, it faith is really given TO us FROM God?
Do you see the theme? By thinking men are passive in their faith and God is active, no wonder you see God's perspective as "persevering the saints/sovereign-elect" (OSAS) --- when really men are fully responsible and choose their OWN faith!
Quote:
You have added 'our' to faith when the words declare that grace and faith are not of ourselves... but are the gift of God.. Grace and faith are tied as one, and is the object of the subject God in bestowing the gift.
In no way is Paul asserting that "God-gifts-faith-to-anyone" (let alone "a few"). God's grace produced the gift; man's faith receives it, or faithlessness refuses. Respectfully, until you accept what Paul clearly wrote, as he wrote it, we cannot move forward.
Quote:
There is no English nor Greek word that states or introduces by implication that faith is man's, for again the subject is God's gift of the object grace through faith, which are God's and not man's. Thus grammatically, the our faith is being supplied through eisegesis.
Robertson taught Greek at graduate level for years; he wrote a commentary on the entire Bible. NASV translators agree --- and everyone who understands a prepositional phrase agrees --- "through faith" does not imply that faith is a gift also; faith is the MEANS by which the gift is received.
Quote:
So sorry my brother, but I disagree with you big time here.
I understand. But if you continue embracing the idea that God gives faith to a FEW, and then crosses His arms and shrugs at the Final Judgment as so many are drug off to Hell --- then tell me on what are they judged?
And more importantly --- what purpose did Jesus have for dying on the Cross?
Jesus died that "All who ...believe should not perish but have eternal life".
You're proposing that the Cross was something more pageantry, for it was GOD who made the decision --- Jesus did the display, and God was hitting only a FEW over their heads (metaphorically) with faith; Jesus therefore did not accomplish anything, He was only part of the show as God was really working the entire act of salvation separate from Jesus.
It's the same thing as I've been trying to get people to discuss about Matt9:13-14; did Jesus come for the sinners, or not? If so, then what is the connection between "Jesus-coming", and "becoming-righteous"? How does regeneration connect to Jesus? There is no connection under "predestination"!
Everyone will be waiting with excited anticipation for "Reformed Theology" people to answer these questions...
:-)
Re: "Elect" --- predestined, or just "saved"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
John146
You [keyzer soze]need to keep reading then because what is also found everywhere in scripture is people making their own decisions and often making decisions against God's desires. How do you explain the following passage with your doctrine:
Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
What was God's desire for the Jews in this case and what actually happened? Why did His desires for them not come to fruition?
This is an excellent question for keyzer soze to ponder. keyzer soze, as I had said earlier in this thread, one is probably going to have to read through the bible carefully more than once just to see all the pieces that need to be fit together. Since you, by your own admission, have not finished your 1st reading, I suggest that there are very important pieces to the puzzle that you are not aware of yet.
Re: "Elect" --- predestined, or just "saved"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gadgeteer
Oh, it's just me; I saw your quote of my post: ...and I thought, "Oh no, I didn't really write that God willed David's adultery, did I???" The "quote" function removed the separation between "did not die", and "God willed the incident". Thought I had messed up, but (whew) I didn't! :-D
The rest was just expanding on the 1Samuel23:12 verse; God saw two futures and allowed David to choose one. Of course David chose the one where he was not captured. It's a good example of the difference between God knowing the future, and God determining the future...
Oh I see, I just reread it and said to myself :eek:"I agreed to that"? :)
Re: "Elect" --- predestined, or just "saved"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gadgeteer
Is God schizophrenic, "Redeemed"? He desires something different than He ordains and causes?
It is clear --- but not to those who raise "faith" up to a second subject. "Dia pistis" is a prepositional phrase, and cannot be any kind of subject. There is one subject, the entire opening phrase:
"By-grace-through-faith-have-you-been-saved".
That's the subject. New American Standard calls it "THAT SALVATION", footnoting the word "that". There are five modifiers:
1. (That salvation) by grace
2. (That salvation) through faith
3. (That salvation) not of yourselves
4. (That salvation) gift of God
5. (That salvation) not by works
In no way is Paul asserting that "FAITH" is gifted by God alongside of "grace". On Eph2:8, noted Greek scholar and Bible commentator A.T.Robertson said, "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."
If "saving-faith" was something God gave TO a few of us, then He could not be leading ALL to repentance and those who refuse store up wrath for themselves, Rom2:4-8.
If "saving-faith" moved in direction from God towards man, God could not receive faith in Heb11:6 and Acts10:34-35.
If "saving-faith" came from God and not from men, Peter would not have said "the outcome of YOUR FAITH (is) salvation". Jesus would not have used "heurisko", few are those who find salvation by diligently seeking Matt7:14. Jesus would not have called those WHO believe wise, and those WHO believe foolish, Matt7:24-27.
Saving-faith could not come from CONVICTION on studying Scripture (1Tim3:15), and in the same way Jesus would not have rebuked those who studied Scripture but REFUSED to believe (Jn5:39-47).
Nowhere is "saving-faith" given TO us FROM God --- His position is to RECEIVE the faith of those who COME.
God's justice is in response to faith in Rom3:26. Further, men can be persuaded to faith -- Jn10:38, Jn20:29, Jn20:31, and especially Acts26:28-29! How can someone be persuaded to faith, it faith is really given TO us FROM God?
Do you see the theme? By thinking men are passive in their faith and God is active, no wonder you see God's perspective as "persevering the saints/sovereign-elect" (OSAS) --- when really men are fully responsible and choose their OWN faith!
In no way is Paul asserting that "God-gifts-faith-to-anyone" (let alone "a few"). God's grace produced the gift; man's faith receives it, or faithlessness refuses. Respectfully, until you accept what Paul clearly wrote, as he wrote it, we cannot move forward. Robertson taught Greek at graduate level for years; he wrote a commentary on the entire Bible. NASV translators agree --- and everyone who understands a prepositional phrase agrees --- "through faith" does not imply that faith is a gift also; faith is the MEANS by which the gift is received.
I understand. But if you continue embracing the idea that God gives faith to a FEW, and then crosses His arms and shrugs at the Final Judgment as so many are drug off to Hell --- then tell me on what are they judged?
And more importantly --- what purpose did Jesus have for dying on the Cross?
Jesus died that "All who ...believe should not perish but have eternal life".
You're proposing that the Cross was something more pageantry, for it was GOD who made the decision --- Jesus did the display, and God was hitting only a FEW over their heads (metaphorically) with faith; Jesus therefore did not accomplish anything, He was only part of the show as God was really working the entire act of salvation separate from Jesus.
It's the same thing as I've been trying to get people to discuss about Matt9:13-14; did Jesus come for the sinners, or not? If so, then what is the connection between "Jesus-coming", and "becoming-righteous"? How does regeneration connect to Jesus? There is no connection under "predestination"!
Everyone will be waiting with excited anticipation for "Reformed Theology" people to answer these questions...
:-)
Well, I actually wrote a nice reply yesterday and accidentally hit that little x at the top of the tab instead of opening a new tab so my best work ever is gone... So having stated this you just missed the best rebuttal ever...
Bottom line... my position rests on God's working with a man's heart 1st to desire, hear and understand the gospel. Maybe after Church and family I might fill in the blanks, or maybe just leave it as it is, and keep the Arminian audience in the mode they enjoy the most. :)
Re: "Elect" --- predestined, or just "saved"?
Quote:
Bottom line... my position rests on God's working with a man's heart 1st to desire, hear and understand the gospel.
I fully agree with the statement that God must work on the heart, ( draw a person), before they can desire, hear, and understand the Gospel, yet I am not a Calvinist because I believe that some of the people that God draws resist Him, supress the truth in unrighteousness, and neglect so great a salvation, therefore they do not escape God's judgement. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance, God calls all men everywhere to repent, and the Holy Spirit convinces the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgement. So the call and invitation is universal, but only those who repent, believe, and abide are the elect.
2 Peter 1:10- Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall
Re: "Elect" --- predestined, or just "saved"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Redeemed by Grace
Well, I actually wrote a nice reply yesterday and accidentally hit that little x at the top of the tab instead of opening a new tab so my best work ever is gone... So having stated this you just missed the best rebuttal ever...
Oh, rats; I don't know how many times that's happened to me. Maybe the browser will crash, or the whole computer; or I will have been logged out when I'm not looking. Sometimes I remember to copy it to the clipboard, often not. Usually, I have to grudgingly admit that rewriting it produces a post that was better than what I wrote before. Knowing God has a sense of Humor, I sometimes wonder if He did it? ;-P
If you're inclined to redo it, I would be very interested!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace
Bottom line... my position rests on God's working with a man's heart 1st to desire, hear and understand the gospel. Maybe after Church and family I might fill in the blanks, or maybe just leave it as it is, and keep the Arminian audience in the mode they enjoy the most. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glad4mercy
I fully agree with the statement that God must work on the heart, (draw a person), before they can desire, hear, and understand the Gospel, yet I am not a Calvinist because I believe that some of the people that God draws resist Him, suppress the truth in unrighteousness, and neglect so great a salvation, therefore they do not escape God's judgment. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance, God calls all men everywhere to repent, and the Holy Spirit convinces the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. So the call and invitation is universal, but only those who repent, believe, and abide are the elect.
I cannot improve on what Glad said so eloquently. That post is fully supported in Scripture, not the least of which is Jesus' story of salvation in Matt22:2-14. Everyone was called (no one seen to be left out), and each person made his own decision to become the "elect". (Same word "eklektos".)
At the risk of appearing a bit of a "bull-dog", I'd like to post something again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadget
Now -- look at what I put together from three passages, Deut30:11-20, Rom10:6-10, and Acts17:26-31:
"It is NOT difficult NOR too far, it is very near. The word of faith is not in Heaven that one must go GET it and GIVE it to us to make us hear it that we may observe it. No, it is in our hearts and in our mouths. If we confess with our mouths Jesus as Lord and believe in our hearts God raised Him from the dead, we will be saved. But if our hearts turn away and we will not obey, we will perish. God determines mens' places and times that they should seek God and ...find Him, though He is not far from any of us. God commands all men everywhere to repent. God has set before us life and death, the blessing and the curse; so CHOOSE LIFE by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice and by holding fast to Him."
The second sentence is Deut30:12, which is a foundational refutation of "monergistic regeneration", the basis of "Predestined Salvation". Monergistic regeneration proposes that the word-of-faith IS in Heaven and God must reach down and monergistically GIVE it to a FEW so that they WILL believe. Paul said in Romans10:8 that it's the same word of faith as Deuteronomy30 expressed.
What do you do with these three passages? Do they or do they not propose that "the word of faith" is PUT in EVERY person's heart and mouth, and each can confess and believe and be saved, or each can turn away and perish? If "not", then please tell what you think they express.
These three passages overturn "total inability" (God gives everyone the ability), "monergistic regeneration" (it's not too far nor too hard for ANYONE, He does not have to reach down and GIVE it before we can believe), and "exclusive election" (God determines that EVERYONE can believe, even commands it). Is there any way they don't?
This is the answer --- as Glad said, "call/invitation universal"; the word of faith is in the hearts of both those who can confess believe and be saved, and in those who can turn away and perish.
So --- "total depravity", and "total inability"; that is, total inability until God calls us, the call overcomes our sin sufficient for salvation, and His giving us the choice fulfills the essence of "love" and compromises His sovereignty not one bit.
Re: "Elect" --- predestined, or just "saved"?
As ones life needs the breath of God to live; one's spiritual life is as a light bulb, where your light can't shine until He supplies the energy. Until then--- man searches in vain in the dark.
Re: "Elect" --- predestined, or just "saved"?
Just a thought I had last night in prayer. I have a 12 month old son and I have one on the way (we just found out we are having another boy) and in my prayers I prayed that God would help me to be a Godly father and all that good stuff. Anyways, in my prayers about my kids I prayed that they would grow up fearing God and respecting and loving me. And the thought hit me, what if God verbally answered my prayer and told me last night (he didn't by the way) that He would answer my prayer and I would raise my kids to fear the Lord and they would love me all their life. Would the love then be less real or less appreciated by me knowing that God was seeing to it that it happened and it wasn't from their human "free-will" separated from God's will?
Perhaps this answer would differ for many, but for me it certainly would NOT. In fact, I think it would mean MORE to me knowing that this love from my children was perfectly in the will of God. I just thought I would add this since I have been thinking about this whole issue and praying about it and wanted to share this. Think of it this way, if anything is contained in the perfect will of God, then it pleases a Holy God by definition.
Again, I recognize that God allows man to choose and play a huge part in His story. But I also believe that God's sovereign control is painted all over in the bible. This morning I am in 2 Sam in my quest to read the bible cover to cover and I couldn't help but appreciate this passage as suggesting God's sovereign control. Sure, I see God interacting and teaching that human decisions have real consequences (sin = problems) but I also see God decreeing things to come which in theory take human "free-will" to fulfill. Here is the particular passage that I am talking about. I hope everyone has a blessed Sunday!
7 Nathan then said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel, ‘It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added to you many more things like these! 9 Why have you despised the word of the LORD by doing evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon. 10 Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11 Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun.’” 13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die.” 15 So Nathan went to his house.
Re: "Elect" --- predestined, or just "saved"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Redeemed by Grace
As ones life needs the breath of God to live; one's spiritual life is as a light bulb, where your light can't shine until He supplies the energy. Until then--- man searches in vain in the dark.
I agree with this as well. We are hopelessly lost in darkness until God draws us by convincing us of sin, of righteousness, and of judgement, ( basically shining the Light on us). Yet we are capable of resisting the light. This is the condemnation that Light is come into the world, but men hated the Light for their deeds were evil. If we receive the light, God quickens us, and we become children of the Light.
John 1:9-That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.[b]
John 3: 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
