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Guess I'm going to have to read some more of his writings. I remember agreeing with way more than I disagreed with. But as I said, it has been several years and several thousands of pages of reading ago! Glad you're enjoying!Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace
W :)
Before I reengage, I'd like to know if you are looking for a friendly discussion or something different? For if your heart is head against Calvinism, for which up until this thread I have never read any of his works, than I am not one to debate Calvinism. However if you feel that folks who either hold a "Calvinistic or an Arministic (sp) view point" are still brothers in the faith, then I wouldn't mind exploring your reply with further discussion. And for the record, my position is based on God's sovereignty in all things.... All things.... even within your and my will, so if we do enter into a discourse, I will defend using the bible this position and not Calvinism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadgeteer
And for what it's worth... a 1 year doesn't know his left hand from his right yet, so it can't be both. :)
So much time, so little to read... er scratch that... so little time, so much to read --- it's like a straw in the ocean right now... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Friendly (brotherly), of course. If we agree on the basis, that is "Christ and the Spirit in us", a changed heart which does not (cannot) walk in sin, then we have the same goal; to express the love of Christ between us --- for we are family, looking forward excitedly to when Jesus returns and we shall be together in the clouds with Him. :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace
My motivation to post on message boards is encouragement and strengthening of brothers and sisters; for I read in Scripture time after time after time warnings against being led astray from Jesus and salvation. If you are family, love compels me to encourage you into a deeper fellowship with Christ. For you are my treasure that I intend to take with me into Jesus' presence; if I am open to Him working strength in you through me, then my blessing is doubled. By Him, and by you.Quote:
For if your heart is head against Calvinism, for which up until this thread I have never read any of his works, than I am not one to debate Calvinism.
...and I pray that others have the same desire for me; in that case, we serve God, and are blessings to each other.I'm honored to find you in agreement with me on this.Quote:
However if you feel that folks who either hold a "Calvinistic or an Arminianistic view point" are still brothers in the faith, then I wouldn't mind exploring your reply with further discussion.
God is sovereign. But what does Scripture say about how He applies His sovereignty?Quote:
And for the record, my position is based on God's sovereignty in all things....
The key, is that "God is love" (1Jn4:16); and love does not demand its own way (1Cor13:5). Love cannot be ordained, else it cannot be love. If I wanted to marry someone, can I determine whether or not they love me back? No; all I can do is ask. Such is the nature of love.Amen!Quote:
All things.... even within your and my will, so if we do enter into a discourse, I will defend using the bible this position and not Calvinism.
I thought perhaps I wasn't saying that clearly --- I'm sorry. :-)Quote:
And for what it's worth... a 1 year doesn't know his left hand from his right yet, so it can't be both. :)
"Choice" is given by God, in that it is provision to all; see verses like 1Tim4:10:Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace
"God is the Savior of ALL MEN (provision), malista/specially/above-all believers (fulfillment)."
Contrast two verses we just discussed; 2Tim3:15 where studying Scriptures can cause wisdom that leads to saving-faith, and John5:39-47 where they studied Scriptures but refused to come to Jesus to have life. Jesus stated why they refused --- because they would not believe Moses, because they did not love God.
That is the greatest commandment --- to love God (Matt22:37); it is a command that God expects us to do. It is the basis for Deuteronomy30:11-20 --- "I have set before you life and death ...so CHOOSE LIFE, by loving the Lord your God and by ...holding fast to Him."
If we both defend using the Bible, maybe I can show you connections with verses you have not considered before, or perhaps you can show me.
:-)
Good to hear! If our mutual agenda is to seek God's glory and the love in Christ between us, then this would be a worthwhile study... A couple items to share... 1st we need to keep the posts short, for if we write a novel, many points will dilute the reply into a point counter point essay, and my 'experience' is that stuff gets lost in trying to address everything individually. 2nd statement is - we need not mention Calvinism nor Arminism-sp within our writings going forward, because we are not posturing for or against these 'positions' per se, but to what the sum of thy word declares. 3rd... my work keeps me busy so my frequency in responding will be sporadic at times.... I gotta pay my bills, ya know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadgeteer
And lastly, I take the view that I don't defend the bible, for many a position by many a sect have wrongly used the bible to 'declare' that their position is biblical.... from drinking to drugs, to polygamy and gambling, to whatever.... Our mutual goal is to find that one meaning within the text, and that it is congruent with other meanings elsewhere within the word.... For scripture judges our doctrines, and not that we use scripture to support our doctrines, so if we allow scripture to frame our position, then we should be eye to eye at the end.... :) All in all, if we submit to His Spirit as we explore this subject, I would think the objectives of God's glory and our love for each other being demonstrated as we write - would be achieved.
With that stated... I need to go back with you to that 1 year old in choosing.... My position is that choosing is an acquired human process that is influenced. My also position is that God does not choose.... Man chooses, [based on learned knowledge]; God never chooses, He purposes [wills]. So maybe this is the focal point to begin with?
I'm going to mostly stay outta this thread, but will be eagerly reading along. I feel I have more to learn than I have to contribute on this topic at this time. But I like the way you two (Redeemed by Grace and Gadgeteer) are starting out. Praying this discussion goes well and edifies its readers. :pray:Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace
blessings,
W :)
Amen and Amen.... God's glory is so important to me.... For His calling me yet while I thought I wasn't lost speaks volumes to His grace in my life.... May God be glorified and we all edified in searching His word for truth and instruction...Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Man is never without responsibility and accountability, yet God does not wait on man, for He is active, purposeful, and engaging, according to His will. God is big... Really big, and our challenge is to try not to look for Him with our own eyes [wisdom, understandings], but through His [wisdom and understandings].
For His glory...
I too will join Watchman as a reader of this thread. Most here know I take the bible literally when I read the word "election" and I believe that God's sovereign will trumps everything. Or perhaps a better way of saying it is that everything that comes to be, happens only because it is in God's sovereign will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Job 37:16 Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge.
Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.
Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Job 28:24 For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens.
1 John 3:19-20 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
Isaiah 46:9 I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done.
Matthew 10:30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
Psalm 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.
Hi KS.... as well as Watchman....Quote:
Originally Posted by keyzer soze
Please don't feel you can't chime in as well, for this is not a duel.... this should be brothers and sisters who love the Lord with all their hearts desiring a deeper understanding of the God who created each of us for His eternal purposes.....
Understanding the position of choice within the mind of man has always been a struggle of Christian logic, for man cannot help it but to look at himself as being able. But as we peel back the layers of the onion and lean away from self and upon God.... Whoa -------the majesty and glory of God reveled through His Son, our Savior becomes brilliantly bright as He open our hearts with understandings....
So same request to all, keep it simple, keep it biblically focused and not to a doctrinal position called out today by society [IE Calvinism or Arminism], and keep it focused on God's glory and the love for each other.
For His glory...
I realize it isn't a duel. I'll chime in if led to do so...but will mostly be following along. I find I learn more with my ears open and my mouth shut...or my eyes open and keyboard inactive, in this case! :D
Amen! :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace
True. I'm guilty of long posts, 'cause I tend to respond to each Scripture cited. It's the connections that matter, how two passages which say the same thing connect. It's not "burying the discussion in many quotes" (an accusation that avoids engaging the cited verses), but it is "Scripture interpreting Scripture".Quote:
A couple items to share... 1st we need to keep the posts short, for if we write a novel, many points will dilute the reply into a point counter point essay, and my 'experience' is that stuff gets lost in trying to address everything individually.
Oh I find if you ignore bills, they go away! ;-PQuote:
2nd statement is - we need not mention Calvinism nor Arminianism within our writings going forward, because we are not posturing for or against these 'positions' per se, but to what the sum of thy word declares. 3rd... my work keeps me busy so my frequency in responding will be sporadic at times.... I gotta pay my bills, ya know.
There are several approaches to discussing "predestined-salvation"; one is to discuss the verses that seem to promote "predestination" (as I stated earlier, four "founding passages", and more than 30 "secondary passages"). Another is to deal with verses that speak of our own choice. Still another is to discuss verses which clearly advance the idea of falling-from-salvation. Both warnings against "falling", and tales of those who do --- some with actual names, others with examples who are US if we do not heed the warnings.
Very well said!Quote:
And lastly, I take the view that I don't defend the bible, for many a position by many a sect have wrongly used the bible to 'declare' that their position is biblical.... from drinking to drugs, to polygamy and gambling, to whatever.... Our mutual goal is to find that one meaning within the text, and that it is congruent with other meanings elsewhere within the word.... For scripture judges our doctrines, and not that we use scripture to support our doctrines, so if we allow scripture to frame our position, then we should be eye to eye at the end....
One example of how this works --- 2Cor4:4 speaks of "the god of this world blinding men so they can't believe the Gospel", and Mark4:12 (quoting Isaiah6:9) saying that GOD closes men's eyes. But that has to fit Matt13:15, where they close their own eyes and ears lest they turn and be saved!
So who really closes men's eyes against belief and salvation --- God, the devil, or the men themselves?Respectfully said, "submitting to the Spirit" is often at issue. You and I are Human --- therefore fallible. We can seek the Spirit, but can remain prejudiced by our own thoughts. Mormons have this thing they call "burning-of-the-bosom", where they seek the Spirit and then however they feel is "the Spirit's answer". This is the value of beginning with the presumption that the Bible is inspired by God ("God-breathed" in 2Tim3:16), and the Spirit will not contradict what is in Scripture.Quote:
All in all, if we submit to His Spirit as we explore this subject, I would think the objectives of God's glory and our love for each other being demonstrated as we write - would be achieved.
It looks like we agree! Deuteronomy30:11-20, with its connection to Romans10:6-10, is the answer to "total inability". Of ourselves we ARE completely corrupt, "totally depraved"; but Jesus said He draws all men to Himself (Jn12:32) --- using the same "helkuo-draw/drag-forcibly" as John 6:44, "no one comes to Me unless the Father helkuo-draws/drags him." So God gives everyone the ability! If we add to that Deuteronomy-Romans idea what Paul said in Acts17:26-31, it clearly says that God puts men when and where they CAN believe, it is not far from anyone, and He commands all men everywhere to repent. Under "predestination" belief is INFINITELY too far for most!Quote:
With that stated... I need to go back with you to that 1 year old in choosing.... My position is that choosing is an acquired human process that is influenced. My also position is that God does not choose.... Man chooses, [based on learned knowledge]; God never chooses, He purposes [wills]. So maybe this is the focal point to begin with?
"Predestination" founds on the premise that God does not want or love most people, He ordains/desires/decrees them to BE sinful and TO perish, and does not draw them (or perhaps does draw them but does not equip them to RESPOND). But Scripture asserts all men are drawn (effectively), all can be saved. John10:9 says that if ANYONE enters through Jesus he shall be saved, and shall ...find pasture. That is saying "shall become sheep". "Predestination" asserts the chosen are ALWAYS God's sheep, even for all those years we walked in sin and defilements and were not yet saved! Paul says in Eph2 that "we were children of Hell, even as the rest!"
How can a "child-of-Hell", be one of God's "predestined-sheep"? No, it only makes sense in the "shall-BECOME-sheep" understanding. When the Prodigal was in the far land, drunk and frequenting harlots (Luke15:13), did he reflect a saved person? Impossible! Only when he came to his senses, repented and returned was he welcomed back, only then did "all Heaven rejoice" (Luke15:7!).
All Heaven does not rejoice at a return that is PREDESTINED (ignoring the obvious question of "how could a predestined-person LEAVE to walk in sin, in the first place?"). Heaven rejoices WHEN someone returns, when and IF. A "lost sheep", is not "still a saved sheep-of-God"!
Good post!
Hi, "Keyzer". Let me throw you a curve, and I look forward eagerly to your understanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by keyzer soze
"False christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." Matt24:24.
People who hold "OSAS" take this as meaning "It is NOT POSSIBLE to lead astray the elect". If-possible-but-it's-not-possible.
So what are the false ones trying to do? What's their purpose?
Now consider this verse:
"Paul ...was hurrying to be in Jerusalem, if possible, for the day of Pentecost." Acts20:16.
Clearly it was possible for Paul to be there for Pentecost. If "Ei-Dunatos" means it is really possible in Acts20:16, then how can it NOT mean "it is really possible" in Matt24:24? Is there some way that the exact same Greek words can fully reverse meaning?
What does "elect" mean --- "predestined", or does it just mean "saved"?
"They will lead astray even the saved, if they can."You and I agree on this, completely. The difference between us is how each of us perceives that God applies His sovereign will. Is it within God's sovereignty to draw every single person ever born to Him, and allow them to choose to love Him? That does not violate His sovereignty at all, does it?Quote:
Or perhaps a better way of saying it is that everything that comes to be, happens only because it is in God's sovereign will.
There are several words in Scripture describing God's "will". Notably, "Thelema", which seems to convey more God's desire-will, and "Boulema" which conveys His decree-will. In John6:40 where Jesus said "it's God's will that all who see and believe be saved", He uses "thelema desire-will". In 2Peter3:9 Peter says "God does not will/boulemai/decree any to perish, but patiently waits for all to repent".
Where in Scripture does God decree any to repent, where is any person hopeless/helpless/without-any-chance-of-redemption? I take John3:16 literally, that God loved the WORLD that WHOSOEVER believes should not perish. In 1Jn2:2 Jesus is the propitiation not just for us, but also for the holos-kosmos-whole-world. That's how Jesus bought even the HORRIBLY wicked false teachers, in 2Pet2:1!
I don't see in Scripture the exclusivity and non-loving that "predestination" requires.
I look forward to your thoughts, especially on that Matt24:24 verse!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Amen! There are no stupid questions, as the saying goes; stupid answers perhaps --- and I pray that I'll never be the source of any of those "stupid answers"! :-PQuote:
Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace
You know, BOTH of your characters and personalities are exposed between the words you say. And what I see --- is Jesus. Your heart is full of Him and the Spirit, with the same love for people that He had. NO one can speak as you both do, without truly knowing and belonging to Jesus. With respect, you are a blessing to all who know both of you.Quote:
Understanding the position of choice within the mind of man has always been a struggle of Christian logic, for man cannot help it but to look at himself as being able. But as we peel back the layers of the onion and lean away from self and upon God.... Whoa -------the majesty and glory of God reveled through His Son, our Savior becomes brilliantly bright as He open our hearts with understandings....
So same request to all, keep it simple, keep it biblically focused and not to a doctrinal position called out today by society [IE Calvinism or Arminism], and keep it focused on God's glory and the love for each other.
I pray that I only reflect the same attitude of kindness and love in my words, also. We are ambassadors for Christ (2Cor5:20) --- what they know of HIM, they know from US. May the world see Him in us enough that they want what we have.
Never lose sight of the goal.
:-)
At work now, will try to reply more later.
Gadgeteer, trying to understand how you read Matt 24:24 better.
"False christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." Matt24:24.
which of the following below do you think has the same meaning:
a) False christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, even the elect.
b) False christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, some of the elect.
c) False christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, perhaps some of the elect but perhaps not.
d) If none of these work then simply reword it how you read and understand the passage.
Then could you define for me what the word ELECT means at the end of the sentence regardless of which you pick above. Thanks and look forward to getting back to this later on.
The message is that they're trying to lead the "elect" away from Christ. What are deceivers after, "Keyzer"? They're trying to get us away from Jesus into sin. It's so in Col2:6-8, it's so in 1Jn2:26-28, it's so in 2Pet3:17, and it's very clear in 2Pet2:18-22. The false seek to entice back into corruptions those who have TRULY escaped through the true-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by keyzer soze
They're not wasting their time in front of those who CANNOT be led astray; evil seeks to destroy what God created, notably mankind.
What does "devour" mean in 1Pet5:8? What's the devil's purpose? Does he care about how many CROWNS we have in Heaven, or is he really trying to lure us away from Jesus? What is the danger in 2Cor11:3 --- we are at the same risk as Eve was.
Risk of what?
Well, PLEASE don't get in trouble at work! :-)Quote:
Then could you define for me what the word ELECT means at the end of the sentence regardless of which you pick above. Thanks and look forward to getting back to this later on.
eklektos
1) picked out, chosen
.....a) chosen by God,
..........1) to obtain salvation through Christ
...............a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
It's the same word in Matt22:14, "many are called (everyone!) but few are chosen (those who answered/came/changed-clothes!)".
Revelation17:14
He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."
So "eklektos" is "chosen/saved". You and I agree on the "chosen", but not on how they are chosen. I cited Matt22:14 --- everyone in view ("as many as you find!") were invited/called, but only those who ACCEPTED (and put on clean clothes!) became the chosen. The king decided nothing, men refused for farming, for business, for dirty clothes, for their own reasons.
RE the connection made between Matt24:24 and Acts20:16 --- if "ei-dunatos" means it is possible in Acts20, how could it not mean "possible", in Matt24?
In Acts "Tried to be there if he could".
In Matthew "Try to lead them astray, if they can."
Can you propose some way of making that into:
"Try to lead them astray, but they really can't"?