Calvinism / pre-destination

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Originally Posted by Noeb

You start off saying, "actually" as if you disagree, but you agree. I used (as you did) verses both before and after verse 44 to establish his authority. Since you agree there are some before, why springboard from verse 44?
My statement was very simple.
"The Father draws through the Son, which is the point of the chapter."
That's very easy to see throughout the entire chapter.

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I thought you were saying the point was the drawing, when Jesus was responding to their questioning of His authority. "Those who come to Me, are authorized by the Father; _I_ am authorized."

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I quoted

Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

There's no reason to go elsewhere. We will always have enough in the context if our interpretation and understanding is correct. He doesn't drag all men to salvation. He does drag all to his Judgment Seat that he obtained through his life, death, and resurrection.

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The word "draw" does mean "all men to salvation". Not that all will come, for many prefer sin (John3:19-20). But the Cross attracts all men, providing proof enough for belief to be saved (Acts17:31).

"Draw" (according to the Lexicon) is also in Jn18:10 (Peter drew his sword) and Jn21:6 & 11 (they were unable to draw up the nets), Acts16:19 (very much "drew them FORCEFULLY into the marketplace"), Acts21:30 and James2:6.

The wording is "Jesus draws them to Himself" --- not "draws them to judgment". To-Himself, can only promote "salvation". No unrepentant sinner comes to Jesus.

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He does drag all to his Judgment Seat that he obtained through his life, death, and resurrection.

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This sounds like the Calvinistic interpretation, "Jesus draws all the PREDESTINED to Himself". Rather than the Scriptural "all-provision", and "believers-fulfillment" (see 1Tim4:10).

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Originally Posted by Gadgeteer

The word "draw" does mean "all men to salvation". Not that all will come, for many prefer sin (John3:19-20). But the Cross attracts all men, providing proof enough for belief to be saved (Acts17:31).

"Draw" (according to the Lexicon) is also in Jn18:10 (Peter drew his sword) and Jn21:6 & 11 (they were unable to draw up the nets), Acts16:19 (very much "drew them FORCEFULLY into the marketplace"), Acts21:30 and James2:6.

The wording is "Jesus draws them to Himself" --- not "draws them to judgment". To-Himself, can only promote "salvation". No unrepentant sinner comes to Jesus.

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Now is the judgement of this world sounds like judgment to me, not salvation. "Jesus draws them to Himself", in the context of, "now is the judgement of this world", IS "draws them to judgment". All are not drawn by force to salvation. The cross does not draw all men. So it cannot mean that and you can't excuse it by saying not all will come.

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Originally Posted by Gadgeteer

This sounds like the Calvinistic interpretation, "Jesus draws all the PREDESTINED to Himself".

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How so? I said "He does drag all to his Judgment Seat" not some. Which is the context (judgement of world), and what other scripture means like, every knee will bow and every tongue confess, we must all stand before the judgement seat of Christ.

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Originally Posted by Gadgeteer

But if God chooses everything, that's the ultimate excuse.

"God, we couldn't help it! We couldn't choose anything ELSE!!!" http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/sp...smiley-019.gif

You're missing Paul's point --- God arranges for everyone to seek Him and find Him, He's not far from anyone, and He commands all men everywhere to repent! Where is "Limited Atonement" in that?
You read "tasso" (tetagmenoi) and thing it's "GOD-ordained". Noted Greek expert A.T.Robertson commented that there's no evidence of an absolute decree of salvation, Luke does not say why the Gentiles ranged themselves on God's side. Besides, two verses earlier the Jews "unelected themselves". No way that verse 46 fits "predestination".

Acts13:48 is one of the "classic Calvinistic proof-texts", btw; one of those I call "the secondaries".
With respect, your disagreement is not credible. All three passages declare the word-of-faith is not far but near. All three passages promote the idea that anyone can believe. We cannot just scratch out Deuteronomy on some pretense of "Old Covenant" (as if they weren't predestined THEN, but we are NOW!) --- because Romans10:8 says it's the same word of faith from Jesus, that saved men back then too! Each can confess and believe and be saved, or each can turn away disobey and perish; its not too far nor too difficult for anyone.

So I note your disagreement (expected it), but respectfully point out you have only opinion on which to base it. It's not me --- all three passages assert "it's not far, it's not out of reach, it's very near".

...under the doctrine of "predestined-salvation", the word-of-faith is INFINITELY too far and difficult for the unelect. (Nor would anyone have written "it's not far" if it was PREDESTINED and already sovereignly placed IN them).

Will you recognize that Deuteronomy30:12 is a foundational refutation of "monergistic regeneration", the basis of Reformed Theology? Monergism asserts that God must reach down (to the few!) and GIVE them faith SO THAT they (will!) hear it and observe it irresistibly. And Deut30:12 fully overturns that. Because Jesus told us everyone is forcefully dragged to the door. Jn12:32. Except those who seek in Heb11:6, those who seek in Matt7:14, and those who seek in Acts17:26-31; all speaking "salvationally". A Davidic Lamentation, not even Pauline writing. Romans3:10-12 quotes Psalm 14 and 53; a "lamentation" is a generalization --- "no one IN GENERAL seeks, but those who seek find." Please tell me why "my case" is not expressly stated by Deuteronomy30:11-20, Romans10:5-10, and Acts17:26-31?
"All men are helkuo-dragged". Reformed Theology in many places (1Tim2:4, Rom5:18-19) reads "ALL", and writes in "SOME". Which is the basis for men being able to believe, in Acts17:31. The ability for "all men everywhere to repent", consequents from the proof of Jesus on the Cross.

Have you and I ever discussed the Scriptural reality of "believing-because-of-seeing"? That's directly stated to Thomas in Jn20:29, it's what Jesus clearly said in John10:38, and it's the rebuke of Matt11:21-24. Why would those who had seen Jesus' miracles but still refused to believe, be judged harsher than those who had not seen Him? Jesus' audience at the time had seen Him heal the sick, raise the dead, feed the 3000 and 5000; turn water into wine, and they heard about Him walking on water. In the face of all those convincing things, they refused to believe -- and will be judged more harshly.

Why? Fit "it will go better for THEM in the judgment than for you", into predestined-salvation. How can it be done?
Well, he was more right than many Calvinist commentators. Nevertheless, "dia pistis" is a prepositional phrase. In no way does it even hint that "faith is God's gift". Robertson also agrees: "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."

A gift given by grace, is received by faith; the RECEIVING of the gift is never part OF the gift (outside of the movie, "The Stepford Wives"). Peter says it's our faith by which we receive salvation, 1:1:9 --- was he wrong? Hebrews11:6 says God receives faith from men --- they have to come to Him BY faith.

Romans3:26 says God's justice responds to faith.

I can give you dozens of similar verses; show me anything that places "faith" as emanating from GOD and flowing towards MEN (rather than vice-versa). And no, 2Tim2:25 ain't it...
Really? "God is well pleased, through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." Does it say "through-foolishness", or not? Deny that Reformed Theology asserts heart-change and THEN belief, thus the message would cease being "foolish" and be "wisdom" and THEN belief occurs.

Can you deny that? And those things are only revealed after believing and receiving the Spirit!!!

Sproul really needs to scratch that verse out of his books. So does MacArthur, White, Gill, and Piper. Spurgeon and Pink --- well, they're dead, aren't they? But their books really should be edited. 'Cause nothing in Scripture puts "heart-change before belief".

It's ironic that all Reformed people will admit that "born-again/regenerated" cannot exist separately from "have-life/made-alive" (none can be one without the other) --- but having-life comes AFTER belief in Jn20:31 & 5:40 and they will not acknowledge it! Will you acknowledge it? Or do you have some way of reversing Jn20:31 & 5:40?
Yeah, you're right; MATTHEW 7:14, I was sleepy. "Few are those who heurisko-FIND-BY-SEEKING". Fully matching Matt7:7, "seek and you shall find". Fully fitting Acts17:26-31, all men should seek Him and might find Him. Fits also Jer29:11-13...

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I'm sorry that you just can't hear me, or do not understand that man plans his ways while the Lord directs His path... I see by the increased sarcasm that your patience is waning with me... so I'll be short so that your sarcasm doesn't turn into anger.

You submit to many folks within this life, ie your wife, your boss, your friends, for they mess with your mind and will and tell you what you should do, and you do it. Why would not God, who is sovereign over all creation, not be allowed to open your heart to the wisdom of His calling of you, before the time you 'chose'? As you didn't choose your parents or gender or time of birth or features, why is it hard for you to see that God moved upon your heart to believe? What can't it be God's will in giving you your faith to believe in Him? Why do you steal His glory and say it wasn't of God that saved you?

Forgive me If I missed your comments, but I asked does God reside within you and if so, how do you know?

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Originally Posted by Noeb

Now is the judgment of this world sounds like judgment to me, not salvation. "Jesus draws them to Himself", in the context of, "now is the judgment of this world", IS "draws them to judgment".

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"This purpose I came to this hour (to live, be crucified, and be raised). Father, glorify Your name."
...a voice from Heaven said: "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again."
Jesus said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for yours. Now judgment is upon the world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out. And (referring again to the Crucifixion) if I be lifted up, I will draw all men to Myself."

...For a little while longer the light is among you. Walk while you have the light, that darkness may not overtake you... believe in the light, in order that you may become sons of light." John12:27-36.

This aligns with Mark1:15, "The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe the Gospel." "Judgment" is in terms of who believes and who does not ("he who does not believe has been judged already", Jn3:18). Jesus draws all to Himself, that they can choose Him (and escape judgment), or they can choose sin and come under judgment/condemnation.

His "being-lifted-up" is set in OPPOSITION to the judgment, that is all who SEE Jesus and believe are not judged.

Jesus may have been thinking of Numbers21:9.

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All are not drawn by force to salvation.

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Not drawn to salvation, but drawn forcefully to where they can choose. There is no evading Deuteronomy30:11-20, Rm10:6-10, and Acts17:26-31 --- the clear principle that the word-of-faith (the "message"!) is in everyone's heart and mouth, it's not too far, it's not difficult, one can confess with his mouth and believe in his heart and be saved, or he can turn away disobey and perish.

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The cross does not draw all men.

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Yes, it does. That's what "the word of faith is not far nor difficult, it is in your heart and mouth that you may observe it", means.

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So it cannot mean that and you can't excuse it by saying not all will come.

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Romans5:17-19 says that justification came to everyone, the same as condemnation came to them. Matt22:2-14 says that "many are called", clearly indicating ALL. Everyone is invited/called/drawn.

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How so? I said "He does drag all to his Judgment Seat" not some. Which is the context (judgment of world), and what other scripture means like, every knee will bow and every tongue confess, we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

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It says "to Himself" --- this is not a condemning hostile context, but a kind invitation.

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Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace

What can't it be God's will in giving you your faith to believe in Him? Why do you steal His glory and say it wasn't of God that saved you?

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There's that old story of the man and his family sitting on their roof after a hurricane, waiting on God to rescue them. A boat trudges through the murky waters and pulls up along side the house and the person in the boat says, "Hop in, we're here to rescue you!" The man on the roof says, "No thanks, God will save us!" Now, generally, that story is told to make a different point, but I think in can be applicable as an analogy here, too. If the man sitting on the roof had jumped into the boat, who is the hero? The man who jumped or the ones that came to rescue him? What difference does it make to the rescuers "glory" if the man jumped in or if the rescuer had to force the man into the boat? The rescuer is the hero because he risked his own life and showed up at all!


IMHO it is the reformed position which diminishes Gods true glory in implying that it isn't as glorious if God doesn't force the issue of salvation up on some but not others.

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Originally Posted by Lily

There's that old story of the man and his family sitting on their roof after a hurricane, waiting on God to rescue them. A boat trudges through the murky waters and pulls up along side the house and the person in the boat says, "Hop in, we're here to rescue you!" The man on the roof says, "No thanks, God will save us!" Now, generally, that story is told to make a different point, but I think in can be applicable as an analogy here, too. If the man sitting on the roof had jumped into the boat, who is the hero? The man who jumped or the ones that came to rescue him? What difference does it make to the rescuers "glory" if the man jumped in or if the rescuer had to force the man into the boat? If the rescuer is the hero because he showed up at all!


IMHO it is the reformed position which diminishes Gods true glory in implying that it isn't as glorious if God doesn't force the issue of salvation up on some but not others.

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Hi Lily,

I appreciate your thoughts and have told that boat story many times unknowingly in the past myself... It's not so much the reformed position as it is a biblical position that God's sovereignty trumps man's will.... but it's not so much trumping but working...

Who saves oneself? Jesus or you? Why cannot Jesus enter into your heart for you to understand and respond to His salvation? Every man born is in wise in his own way, for all men are a product of instruction and environment... So instead of being taught by men, why would it be so awful that God's Spirit reveals Himself to you prior to your coming to faith in your own way? Why does it just have to be only man's choosing and not God's?

Psalm 23:1 The LORD is my shepherd,
I shall not want.
2 He makes me lie down in green pastures;
He leads me beside quiet waters.
3 He restores my soul;
He guides me in the paths of righteousness
For His name's sake.
4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I fear no evil, for You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;
You have anointed my head with oil;
My cup overflows.
6 Surely goodness and lovingkindness will follow me all the days of my life,
And I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.

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Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace

I'm sorry that you just can't hear me, or do not understand that man plans his ways while the Lord directs His path...

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Nowhere in Scripture does God direct man's path before belief.

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I see by the increased sarcasm that your patience is waning with me... so I'll be short so that your sarcasm doesn't turn into anger.

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What in my words did you perceive to be sarcasm? I would never be sarcastic with you; I only want to be respectful. Please tell me what I said that you took that way, so that I can make amends.

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You submit to many folks within this life, ie your wife, your boss, your friends, for they mess with your mind and will and tell you what you should do, and you do it.

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Let's "run" with this idea of us submitting to many people --- Hebrews12:7-9 says we submitted to earthly fathers' discipline, shall we not much rather be in submission to God's discipline, and live? How is that not a "choice"?

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Why would not God, who is sovereign over all creation, not be allowed to open your heart to the wisdom of His calling of you, before the time you 'chose'?

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For many reasons. First, God is LOVE --- and love does not demand its own way. Second, nowhere in Scripture is the idea that "God opens select hearts exclusively, before one turns to God". We read 2Cor4:3-4, but noted 2Cor3:16 places "turning-to-God", before "veil-removed". We read Mark4:11-12, but noted Matt13:15 says "they closed their OWN eyes and ears lest they see understand turn and be healed". We read Ezk36:26-27, but noted Ezk11:18 that men turn to God and away from abominations BEFORE their hearts are changed (and verse 21 says those who WILL not turn, are condemned).

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As you didn't choose your parents or gender or time of birth or features, why is it hard for you to see that God moved upon your heart to believe?

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Let's go farther with what you just said --- do we choose GOD as a parent? Romans8:15 says we receive the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry "Abba! Father!" John1:12 says the right to become adopted children is granted to those who believe and receive Jesus. And Hebrews12:7-9 says we have become subject to His discipline (past tense!), but if we are without (present tense!) His discipline then we are not sons (not any longer!) but illegitimate!

So, yes we choose God as parent/Father.

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What can't it be God's will in giving you your faith to believe in Him?

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Because that would violate what Peter said in Acts10:34-35 --- God welcoming (giving-faith-to-a-few) those who do NOT first revere Him and seek righteousness, is "partiality/bias", that God is NOT. And because it also violates the essence of love, "love does not demand its own way", 1Cor13:5.

Because Jesus came for the sick/sinners, not the righteous/regenerated/sovereignly-elected (Matt9:12-13). I really would like to know what you think about the "Good Samaritan" story applied to this issue --- how does "sovereign election" not cast God as walking callously by the "sick/sinners", unlovingly indifferent to their dying?

Why is He SO MUCH LESS loving, than the Good Samaritan in Jesus' story? I would think trying to address this would really make a Reformed Theologian think "Hmmhhhh" --- something like getting punched in the stomach...

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Why do you steal His glory and say it wasn't of God that saved you?

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Take this statement you just made, about "stealing His glory" --- and let's apply it to Jesus' words in John5:39-47. Jesus rebuked them because they sought their own glory rather than God's (they were stealing God's glory!), because they did not love God. THAT was why they were "unwilling to come/believe to have life".

Note well that "having-life", which is inseparable from "heart-change/regeneration", occurs after coming/believing! That's an eternal contradiction with the base of "predestined-salvation".

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Forgive me If I missed your comments, but I asked does God reside within you and if so, how do you know?

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Because Scripture asserts a promise, and I believe it. Because I fellowship and commune with the Father, Son, and Spirit; in my heart I enter within the veil, where Jesus has entered before me, having become a priest forever.

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Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace

Forgive me If I missed your comments, but I asked does God reside within you and if so, how do you know?

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I don't remember if we've discussed this --- let me ask one "backatchya".

How do you know that He indwells you, that you're really saved, rather than just "falsely-believing"? How do you know you are one of those in Luke8:15 ("good soil" who persevere), or one of those in Luke8:13 ("rocky soil" who will fall to temptation/affliction/persecution)? Those in Lk8:13 believed joyfully; if you had asked them if THEY were "saved/indwelt", they would have boldly said "YES!".

The catch-22 in Reformed Theology (really, in any OSAS view) is that whoever falls, was never truly saved in the first place. But those in Lk8:13 received the word with joy and believed; both those in 13 and those in 15 began thinking themselves "saved", and "indwelt", the whole package. CAN you know which group you belong to?

How does one know if he is "truly elected", and not "cruelly rejected"?

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Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace

I appreciate your thoughts and have told that boat story many times unknowingly in the past myself... It's not so much the reformed position as it is a biblical position that God's sovereignty trumps man's will.... but it's not so much trumping but working...

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Depends on what you mean by "trumps". I would agree God is always sovereign. But he does give men a choice and responds to that choice as he told us in Jer. 18. Yet, within that offer to man, God is sovereign.

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Who saves oneself? Jesus or you? Why cannot Jesus enter into your heart for you to understand and respond to His salvation? Every man born is in wise in his own way, for all men are a product of instruction and environment... So instead of being taught by men, why would it be so awful that God's Spirit reveals Himself to you prior to your coming to faith in your own way? Why does it just have to be only man's choosing and not God's?

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Does Jesus stop by and help the man on the road to Jericho? Is he neighborly? Does he place a burden upon man (i.e. the burden of belief and obedience) and then not lift a finger to help with, as he accused the pharisees and lawyers of doing? Of course not! He does enable man to believe. But he doesn't believe for man.

Salvation is of and from the Lord. However, man must believe and God will help men believe but some suppress and resist God's help. Romans 1 tells us that as well as other verses.

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Originally Posted by Brother Mark

Depends on what you mean by "trumps". I would agree God is always sovereign. But he does give men a choice and responds to that choice as he told us in Jer. 18. Yet, within that offer to man, God is sovereign.

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In concept, I wouldn't argue against what you wrote.... Thus for me a breakthrough of understandings... God is sovereign with the mind of man, as man plans and does.

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Originally Posted by Brother Mark

Does Jesus stop by and help the man on the road to Jericho? Is he neighborly?

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Jesus is both God and man, so as a man, He walks as a man would walk... He teaches by words and by examples... It's both.

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Originally Posted by Brother Mark

Does he place a burden upon man (i.e. the burden of belief and obedience) and then not lift a finger to help with, as he accused the pharisees and lawyers of doing? Of course not! He does enable man to believe. But he doesn't believe for man.

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Whoever stated that He believes for a man? He enables your and my faith, through the course of who we are. [But I do hold that His Spirit within me many time prays for me when words fail me.] I believe Mark that before the world began that I was purposed by God to have faith in Him, that I was to be born 1st as a sinner as everyone else, and that to a date and time that He had planned, made arrangements within my life for me to hear the Gospel once again one summer evening in 1971, where looking back it was God's will that I see Him as my Savior and thank Him daily for saving me when I wasn't looking for Him.

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Originally Posted by Brother Mark

Salvation is of and from the Lord.

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We are on a roll here... AMEN!

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Originally Posted by Brother Mark

However, man must believe and God will help men believe but some suppress and resist God's help. Romans 1 tells us that as well as other verses.

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I will give you an 'A' and not the 'men, because I agree with half of your comment... For the all whosoever shall believes -- come to the cross without any doctrines, lest that of hearing the gospel and repenting and believing. Then looking back as time moves forward and as one studies, can see the Love God had in His Son placed upon you, that you are the Father gift to the Son, for the work of the Son's reward.


Mark... I hope I can rep you for this, but if I can't thank for you kindness and for your words for which we are now common with

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Originally Posted by Gadgeteer

I don't remember if we've discussed this --- let me ask one "backatchya".

How do you know that He indwells you, that you're really saved, rather than just "falsely-believing"? How do you know you are one of those in Luke8:15 ("good soil" who persevere), or one of those in Luke8:13 ("rocky soil" who will fall to temptation/affliction/persecution)? Those in Lk8:13 believed joyfully; if you had asked them if THEY were "saved/indwelt", they would have boldly said "YES!".

The catch-22 in Reformed Theology (really, in any OSAS view) is that whoever falls, was never truly saved in the first place. But those in Lk8:13 received the word with joy and believed; both those in 13 and those in 15 began thinking themselves "saved", and "indwelt", the whole package. CAN you know which group you belong to?

How does one know if he is "truly elected", and not "cruelly rejected"?

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Sorry, but I asked and you again turn the tables and ask me a different question instead... So if the question isn't one you want to address, that's fair, just say so...

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Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace

In concept, I wouldn't argue against what you wrote.... Thus for me a breakthrough of understandings... God is sovereign with the mind of man, as man plans and does.

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God influences man's mind, heart and soul and uses "it". But he doesn't set it or will it. Jer. 18 tells us that.

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Jesus is both God and man, so as a man, He walks as a man would walk... He teaches by words and by examples... It's both.

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Right. He does what God would do. Not just what man would do. He's teaching is from His heart and from God. So we know when Jesus condemns the Pharisees and Lawyers for placing burdens upon man and then not lifting a finger to help them, that Jesus will not do that.

Jesus will help the man on the road to Jericho. It is in God's character to do these things. That's why it states that God sent his Son because he loved the world. In his compassion, he helps.

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Whoever stated that He believes for a man? He enables your and my faith, through the course of who we are. [But I do hold that His Spirit within me many time prays for me when words fail me.]

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I agree whole heartedly on the prayer part. I also agree that he enables our faith. Just as he does for those that reject him. Romans 1 tells us that. Man can suppress that which God enables and reveals.

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I believe Mark that before the world began that I was purposed by God to have faith in Him, that I was to be born 1st as a sinner as everyone else, and that to a date and time that He had planned, made arrangements within my life for me to hear the Gospel once again one summer evening in 1971, where looking back it was God's will that I see Him as my Savior and thank Him daily for saving me when I wasn't looking for Him.

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God purposes for many but not all go through with his purpose.

Luke 7:30
30 But the Pharisees and thelawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
NASU

Though I think it can be argued that some, like John The Baptist, Jeremiah and perhaps Paul, did not "choose" as freely as others, I do not think it can be argued that God does not enable all men to believe. Jesus won't put a burden upon a man and then not assist him with that burden. He condemns such actions as that!

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We are on a roll here... AMEN!

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I know of no mainline denomination that things otherwise than salvation is of and from the Lord. I know of no one that believes differently.

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I will give you an 'A' and not the 'men, because I agree with half of your comment...

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;)

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For the all whosoever shall believes -- come to the cross without any doctrines, lest that of hearing the gospel and repenting and believing. Then looking back as time moves forward and as one studies, can see the Love God had in His Son placed upon you, that you are the Father gift to the Son, for the work of the Son's reward.

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Scripture teaches he does so for all men not just a few. Only a few believe. God enables all. He does not put upon man that which he will not enable man to do. Jesus condemns such actions and God won't do that!

Romans 1 tells us that man suppresses the truth that God reveals. And on and on. All men can be saved and God enables them to be saved. Yet some reject God's plans and purposes for them and go to hell.

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Mark... I hope I can rep you for this, but if I can't thank for you kindness and for your words for which we are now common with

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We have some in common as do all believers.

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Originally Posted by Gadgeteer

But if God chooses everything, that's the ultimate excuse.

"God, we couldn't help it! We couldn't choose anything ELSE!!!" http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/sp...smiley-019.gif

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Exactly. Scripture says man has no excuse for rejecting God but Reformed doctrine gives them an excuse ("we couldn't help it because God didn't give us faith!").

Hi RBG,

As it is for many others, the 23rd Psalms is a favorite scripture that I love to recall and reflect on.

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Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace

Hi Lily,

I appreciate your thoughts and have told that boat story many times unknowingly in the past myself... It's not so much the reformed position as it is a biblical position that God's sovereignty trumps man's will.... but it's not so much trumping but working...

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The Biblical position is that God is sovereign - no doubt. And it would follow that He has the ability to override man's will - no doubt. And God certainly does lead, guide and direct, and override man's will in many instances (and thank goodness He does, because there have been many times that if I'd had my way things would not have gone so well as they did). But, it doesn't necessarily follow that His command to repent and believe was a command to Himself (in us) causing us to repent and believe when we did. The command is to us, with the implication that we can either obey or not. He's the sovereign commander and He indeed commands, and there are rewards for obedience and consequences for disobedience. And in the end His perfect will will be done.

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Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace

Who saves oneself? Jesus or you? Why cannot Jesus enter into your heart for you to understand and respond to His salvation? Every man born is in wise in his own way, for all men are a product of instruction and environment... So instead of being taught by men, why would it be so awful that God's Spirit reveals Himself to you prior to your coming to faith in your own way? Why does it just have to be only man's choosing and not God's?

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God saves us. And He gave us a mind that is capable of understanding it, so that if we don't "jump in the boat" its our fault. God is the hero either way(!), because He gave His life to rescue us. To say that He's any less glorious if He doesn't pull us into the boat against our will is error, because regardless of what we do - go willingly or unwillingly, He came to rescue us. He did reveal to us that He did. And He gave each us a functioning mind capable of understanding it even before we were made alive in Christ. Sure, its a mind that tended toward evil and it was dead in the sense that it was out of fellowship with the One who is Life, but it was perfectly capable of understanding that God is good, and that I was a sinner. In that same way, now that I've been made alive with Christ, I avoid fellowship with evil, but I still retain understanding of it. We've had knowledge of evil AND good ever since Adam and Eve ate of the fruit. Every man is accountable.

Anyway, thats how I read it. I keep getting interrupted. Going to sign off for now...

Blessings,

Lily :hug:

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Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace

I'm sorry that you just can't hear me,

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Oh, he can hear you, alright. It has nothing to do with his understanding of what you're saying. You're being clear enough. He (and others like myself) simply disagrees with you.

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or do not understand that man plans his ways while the Lord directs His path...

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Is that saying God directs the path of all people as you apparently believe? No. I don't think you understand what that verse means.

Prov 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Here is another verse that sheds some light on what that verse means:

Prov 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

He doesn't direct the steps of the wicked, He directs the steps of those who indicate to Him that they want to follow Him. But what you don't understand is that man is responsible to choose to indicate to God that he wants to follow Him and that he wants God to direct his steps. People aren't puppets with strings that God pulls to do what He wants. Unfortunately, that is probably how you understand that verse. God will show us the way and direct our steps IF we acknowledge Him in all our ways and make the effort to submit to Him and follow Him. It is our responsibility to willingly submit to His direction.

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You submit to many folks within this life, ie your wife, your boss, your friends, for they mess with your mind and will and tell you what you should do, and you do it. Why would not God, who is sovereign over all creation, not be allowed to open your heart to the wisdom of His calling of you, before the time you 'chose'? As you didn't choose your parents or gender or time of birth or features, why is it hard for you to see that God moved upon your heart to believe? What can't it be God's will in giving you your faith to believe in Him? Why do you steal His glory and say it wasn't of God that saved you?

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How is submitting to God and acknowledging Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior while also acknowledging that you are a sinner in need of God's mercy and forgiveness a case of stealing glory from God? You are equating someone humbling themselves with glorifying themselves. That makes no sense. That's like saying that humbly accepting help from someone when you're in need means you are doing it to receive glory. Really? Have you ever accepted help or a gift from someone? If so, did you do it for your own glory or because you were humbled by their graciousness? Did you deserve some kind of credit for merely accepting their help or their gift?