Calvinism / pre-destination

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Originally Posted by keyzer soze

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Originally Posted by Gadget

Keyzer, where exactly in Scripture is the idea of "God lording over even man's free will"? What does John7:17 mean to you?

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by Lord I mean he is Lord of all.. not universalism

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John7:17 says "if anyone is willing to do His will". God is Lord of a man only if the man believes and follows Him. You didn't answer "where in Scripture does God overturn man's will?".

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Originally Posted by Gadget

...commentator and Greek authority A.T.Robertson said, "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."

That's what Peter stated in 1:1:9 --- receive as the outcome of OUR FAITH salvation.
Fine so far. Where does faith come from? In Acts2:37 --- they were persuaded/convicted to belief by Peter's words, weren't they?

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This is a loaded question. Does God play a part in bringing me the word? Is everything acting outside of his control?

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It wasn't a loaded question, faith comes from our hearts. In 2Tim3:15 faith comes from conviction from studying Scripture. Romans10, "faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the word of God". And Jesus rebuked the Jews for studying Scripture but refusing to come to Jesus (believe!) to have life. Jn5:39-47.

And you did not answer Romans2, God's kindness leads to repentance, but "you by your stubborn unrepentance store up WRATH for yourselves towards the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; to those WHO by perseverance in doing good seek glory honor and immortality, they receive eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, wrath (Hell)."

Please explain how God's kindness can LEAD someone to repentance, but he can REFUSE to repent and store up wrath for himself.

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I believe God loves all. I believe even those who don't choose God and choose sin are loved by God. Why can't God love a soul that He JUSTLY punishes?

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"Just"? What justice is it to punish someone for what he could never avoid? Please look at how God's justice works:

"God is just and justifier of HE WHO believes." Rom3:26.

We see that God's justice is in response to voluntary faith, isn't it?

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I love my son but I punish him when he does wrong. The better question in my mind is WHY DOES GOD NOT PUNISH ALL?!?!?! That is the question I wrestle with. You believe that because you have this faith that you generated you should not be punished for sin but because someone else who is just as guilty as you does not have faith, they are fully deserving of an eternal punishment? This does not trouble you?

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Every last one of us deserves to be punished; but the free gift of God causes our sin to be washed away by His blood, through our faith. When we receive Jesus and the Spirit, we are cleansed and regenerated, washed clean, our sins swept away; He is the perfect sacrifice --- He endured our punishment, in our stead.

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Hold the horses here... http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Fool/bud.gif God PUNISHES for SINS committed... you seem to always leave out the sin and make it SOLELY about faith as if not believing is the ONLY sin worth punishing. I assure you that Jesus Christ was on the cross feeling the real effects of sins, sins of those who will believe in his name. Don't sell SIN short and solely make this about faith.

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He who has saving-faith, walks in repentance; "if we confess our sins God is faithful to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

Our part in that is eloquently stated in Ezk18: "Cast away from you all your sins that you have committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit." Clearly only GOD can make hearts and spirits new --- "make for yourself" proclaims participation through faith!

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You are asking me to judge God here with limited knowledge of God's great plan. There are NUMEROUS spots in the bible that if you read part way through you are left wondering, WHAT IN THE HECK IS GOD THINKING HERE?!?! but after we see it play out we better understand that it was for HIS GLORY. Who do you think salvation is for anyways, do you think it is about ME and YOU or is it all about Christ?

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What is your answer to Ezk18:24, and 30-32? Does God have any pleasure or glory in the death of anyone who dies? Or would he rather they repent and live?

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Ummm, are you suggesting that God doesn't show favoritism?

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I'm suggesting nothing; Peter said it, I believe it. Not accusing you of dissing Peter, but would like you to consider there is a deeper understanding in Peter's words than what you thought.

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Were all the angels created the same? Where does this concept of fairness come from because I am yet to pick up on it through scripture or through HIS creation which is general revelation about Him.

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Was satan created evil? No; he was blameless until the day iniquity was found in him.

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Time and reflection.... short term I don't believe anyone can tell.

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Of course you can! "He who HAS the Son, has eternal life! [b]I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW!!!"

There is a subtlety in Luke8:13-15 --- your understanding of it is not what Jesus meant. You perceive that "their ORDAINED natures, 'good soil' or 'bad soil', determined whether they persevered or fell". But that's not what Jesus told --- this connects with Hebrews6:7-8, where one field is tilled and can produce either good fruit or bad!

A field that produces THORNS, is cursed, burned, and CALLED "bad/rocky soil".
A field that produces GOOD fruit, is blessed and CALLED "good soil"!

Do you see the difference? "Calvinism/predestined-salvation" reverses the Scriptural cause-and-effect. It is not the GOOD/BAD soil that determines the fruit, it is the FRUIT that determines the LABEL! To deny this, you and I would have to literally scratch Hebrews 6:7-8 out of our copies!

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However there are a number of "tests" and characteristics of saved people outlined in the bible that we are suggested by the writers to compare ourselves against over time.... only time can tell from our end.

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No, 1Jn5:11-13 is an absolute; "You may KNOW!!!"

It is as Paul said in 2Tim1:12-14, "I KNOW whom I have believed" (and guard by the Spirit eternal life!).

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Again, I believe time and fruits will be the indicator to myself. Does my walk with Christ grow with time? Do I show fruit as I grow in Christ? If these things do not show up, if over time I drift away from Him versus towards him then I would lean on the none good soil for my location with Him...

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You can't know --- that's the tragedy. Both the Thirteeners and the Fifteeners looked the same at the start. Not until his dying breath can a "Predestined-Election" proponent know he is "truly elect", or "cruelly deceived".

John said we can KNOW. The difference between the Thirteeners and the Fifteeners, was not what kind of soil they WERE, [b]but in whether they HELD FAST against temptation/affliction/persecution, or not!

Cause-and-effect, "Keyzer", that's the point! I think that even if you do not yet agree, what I've said (and backed with Scripture), makes sense.

:-)

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Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace

Hi Gadgeteer,

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:wave:

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I see that as reading that into the text... for in context,

1 Timothy 4:14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Is for self encouragement, not for self enrollment...

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”You will save yourselves” does not mean “you will save yourselves”?

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Philippians 2:16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.

Paul doesn't know the heart, but he does know the earmarks of the ones who are heeding his instruction... so as he is sharing the Gospel, he's encouraging as well as challenging those of Philippi --- in effect know what you believe, and why you believe it, and that what you believe is the truth that I have given you

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No, it’s always “movement” that is denied by all OSAS proponents. He’s saying “don’t grumble, THAT you prove yourselves blameless …children of God; HOLD FAST the word of life SO THAT I did not run in vain”. Not-holding-fast is clearly in view; look at the idea of “holding-fast” in Heb3:6 and 14, and in 2Cor15:2.

”…by which you are saved, IF you HOLD FAST the word that I preached…” 1Cor15:2.

We are saved if we hold fast; if we do not hold fast we do not remain saved.

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Originally Posted by Gadget

The steadfastness of election, in Peter's words, is our choice --- 2:1:5-11. Make your ELECTION bebaios-firm/steadfast. Salvation is because of diligent perseverance --- "save yourselves" in 1Tim4:16. The treasure is eternal life, it is given to us through faith, and we guard it by the Holy Spirit's power in 2Tim1:12-14.

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Again for self-assurance. It be like me stating to you, are you saved? Will you be saved tomorrow then? On what basis are you saved today and in doubt about tomorrow?

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No, it has nothing to do with “self-assurance”. Make the ELECTION firm, not make your minds firm ABOUT the election. The language is very clear.

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Originally Posted by Gadget

"As you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith... SEE that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ!" Col2:6-8.

CAN we be "taken captive away from Christ"? Paul says yes! If we are deceived away from Christ, are we still saved? Who decides the "surety of salvation" in Colossians 2:6-8?

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Jesus Declares to His disciple, you did not choose Me, I choice you...

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Chose them --- for what? ”I chose you twelve to BE disciples”. I bet you haven’t considered the connection between John15:16 (which you just quoted), and Jn6:67-70. Jesus chose all twelve (Jn6:70) to be Disciples (Jn15:16), and ordained all twelve to bear fruit that remains (Jn15:16), and Judas is the answer to Peter that “leaving is possible!”

Peter: “Of course we won’t leave You, we know You’re the Messiah.”
Jesus: “I chose all twelve of you, and one of you IS leaving (is a devil!)”.

There’s no other reason Jesus holds up Judas in Jn6:70 except to oppose “no-we-can’t-leave” from Peter!

Jesus is saying "Oh yes you can, one of you already is!"

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Paul writes that the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable...

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Romans11:29. What was your assessment of 2Tim2:11-13? God may not revoke our calling and election, but we can. God may never become faithless, but we can! Do you have another understanding of 2Tim2:11-13?

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What happens at the wisdom of salvation's calling is a reprogramming of sorts... Darkness moves to light, and the instruction of changing behaviors are just that. Behavior is not equal to position, but position begets behavior.

Position in Christ drives obedience, for we are His possession.

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No --- completely backwards. As always, the whole issue is a case of changing “cause-and-effect”, into “effect-and-cause”.

”He became to all those WHO obey Him the source of eternal salvation.” Heb5:9.
“You became obedient from the heart, and freed from sin became slaves of righteousness (slaves of God).” Rm6:17,22.

Obedience causes salvation, not vice-versa.

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Romans 8:35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written,
"FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Does God love even those who perish, and desire that they repent and live? Yes! Ezekiel 18:24 & 30-32 is very clear!

Whaddya think, “Redeemed”? Have you ever looked at these verses this way before, or made these connections before?

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Originally Posted by Michael Snow

See the video linked here:
http://sdcougar.startlogic.com/blog/?p=179

It is one of the best explanations that I have heard. Helped clarify some things for me.
I side with John Wesley, but as he said, on justification, there was not a hair's breadth of difference between him and John Calvin.

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Hi, Michael! Alas, this machine doesn't do videos. Would you be willing to summarize a couple points from it? Thanx! :-)

Thank you, everyone, for your intelligent input. There is much for me to learn, and a lot to digest but I do appreciate your thoughts here. I wasn't intending to cause any controversy with the topic.

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Originally Posted by Gadgeteer

:wave:
”You will save yourselves” does not mean “you will save yourselves”?
No, it’s always “movement” that is denied by all OSAS proponents. He’s saying “don’t grumble, THAT you prove yourselves blameless …children of God; HOLD FAST the word of life SO THAT I did not run in vain”. Not-holding-fast is clearly in view; look at the idea of “holding-fast” in Heb3:6 and 14, and in 2Cor15:2.

”…by which you are saved, IF you HOLD FAST the word that I preached…” 1Cor15:2.

We are saved if we hold fast; if we do not hold fast we do not remain saved.
No, it has nothing to do with “self-assurance”. Make the ELECTION firm, not make your minds firm ABOUT the election. The language is very clear.
Chose them --- for what? ”I chose you twelve to BE disciples”. I bet you haven’t considered the connection between John15:16 (which you just quoted), and Jn6:67-70. Jesus chose all twelve (Jn6:70) to be Disciples (Jn15:16), and ordained all twelve to bear fruit that remains (Jn15:16), and Judas is the answer to Peter that “leaving is possible!”

Peter: “Of course we won’t leave You, we know You’re the Messiah.”
Jesus: “I chose all twelve of you, and one of you IS leaving (is a devil!)”.

There’s no other reason Jesus holds up Judas in Jn6:70 except to oppose “no-we-can’t-leave” from Peter!

Jesus is saying "Oh yes you can, one of you already is!"Romans11:29. What was your assessment of 2Tim2:11-13? God may not revoke our calling and election, but we can. God may never become faithless, but we can! Do you have another understanding of 2Tim2:11-13?No --- completely backwards. As always, the whole issue is a case of changing “cause-and-effect”, into “effect-and-cause”.

”He became to all those WHO obey Him the source of eternal salvation.” Heb5:9.
“You became obedient from the heart, and freed from sin became slaves of righteousness (slaves of God).” Rm6:17,22.

Obedience causes salvation, not vice-versa. {RbG - I disagree}

Does God love even those who perish, and desire that they repent and live? Yes! Ezekiel 18:24 & 30-32 is very clear!

Whaddya think, “Redeemed”? Have you ever looked at these verses this way before, or made these connections before?

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Howdy Gadgeteer,

The soils...


Think of yourself trying to read the bible with a blindfold.... How clear can you read and understand the text through the blind fold? However, those for whom their heart has been tilled by God to accept the Gospel, in effect have had their blindfold removed by God, thus the instruction... behavioral instruction... is seen again, this time with a heart that has been tilled and with eyes that can see, and it is joy to them to take it in and follow... The blindness is no more, for the Lord has given them spiritual sight, and all that you quote above are in agreement to the repentive behaviors of the unblinded... and thus are truly saved and are Christian.

One must be born first from above, then hearing, then faith and repentance, then obedience... the ordo salutis... a fairly understood tenet within the reformed theology camp.


As a help, here is the difference defined:

The ordo salutis is election / predestination, followed by evangelism, regeneration, conversion, justification, sanctification, and glorification. In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is evangelism, followed by faith / election, repentance, regeneration, justification, perseverance, and glorification.

Romans 8:29,30
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

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Originally Posted by Gadgeteer

John7:17 says "if anyone is willing to do His will". God is Lord of a man only if the man believes and follows Him. You didn't answer "where in Scripture does God overturn man's will?".

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Saul's/Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus. God changed his destiny from an enemy of Christ to a hero of Christ.
Isn't that God overturning Man's will?

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Originally Posted by Realist1981

Saul's/Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus. God changed his destiny from an enemy of Christ to a hero of Christ.
Isn't that God overturning Man's will?

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Spot on !

God intervened in the Tower of Babel as well. There are several other instances of God over rulling Man's will but those two comes to my mind. Paul's was more on a personal level where as the Tower of Babel was God intervening on "Man's" overall pursuit of knowledge, which God stunted it's advancement by destroying the communication.

This is why we pray that HIS WILL be done on earth and in Heaven because ultimetely he is the Lord and he is in command of all things.

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Originally Posted by Realist1981

Saul's/Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus. God changed his destiny from an enemy of Christ to a hero of Christ.
Isn't that God overturning Man's will?

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What really happened with Paul, "Realist"? Did God take a godless sin-bent, Scripture-hating, God-hating, evil man --- and turn him towards Himself? No. Paul was a learned man, taught in Scripture; he thought "The Way" was against God, he thought he was helping God.

What Jesus told Paul that day, was: "No --- you're not helping Me."

In one instant Paul realized Jesus was the Messiah, and Jesus was God. So it wasn't a turn-around in serving God, it was correcting his mistake. Paul thought Christians were heretics. In Jesus' light Paul realized with shock that he was HARMING God, not serving Him. So what happened to Paul was NOT "changing his will" (he wanted to serve God), but changing the direction of the intent of his will. Paul was headed in one direction, and Jesus appeared and said: "You're going the wrong way; I'm over HERE."

Also, how many people does God bless with a "Damascus-Road" experience? Yes it happens, occasionally; it's very rare. To use that as part of any theology, it would have to happen frequently, "most often". But God does not force Himself on anyone. I've heard of those in Islam to whom Jesus appears in a dream --- "You want to follow the real God? I am He!" It's still offering them a choice. Same as what happened to Paul.

Mostly we affect who will believe, by our preaching. We are told to "SAVE others, snatching them from the fire"! That is persuasion-from-us, not a Damascus-Road experience...

(Jude23)

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Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace

Howdy Gadgeteer,

The soils...

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Hi, "Redeemed"! RE "the soils" --- let's quote Hebrews6:7-8 directly:

"Ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful by those for whose sake it was tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and ...ends up being burned."

Does this have to be included with Jesus' parable of Luke8? Yes! Tilled-ground, yields EITHER good fruit OR bad fruit. Receives the blessing OR the curse. We would have to absolutely throw out Hebrews6:7-8 to continue thinking "ground produces fruit according to its God-ordained-nature"!

"We desire that each one of you show the same diligence, SO AS to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, SO THAT you not be sluggish BUT be imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." Hebrews6:11-12.

Did you see any of the posts I made on "all of Hebrews"? The entire letter, chapter by chapter, teaches "fallible salvation". The same context about "one-tilled-field-producing-EITHER-good-or-bad", literally the same breath, warns us to be diligent TO produce good fruit and inherit the promise of eternal life! Yes Hebrews must compliment Jesus' words in Luke. And the rest of Scripture applies too:

"My beloved planted a vineyard, expected it to produce good grapes; but it only produced worthless ones. I will remove its hedge and it will be consumed. I will lay it waste... The Vineyard of the Lord is the house of Israel." Isaiah 5:1-7.

What did God expect of Israel? To produce good fruit! Did He predestine them to yield good fruit? No! Did He predestine them to yield bad fruit? No! They messed up!!! It's the same in chapter 65 --- He destines them for the sword BECAUSE He called and they did not answer, because they did evil in His sight, and because they chose that in which God did not delight!

Zero "predestination".

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Think of yourself trying to read the bible with a blindfold.... How clear can you read and understand the text through the blindfold? However, those for whom their heart has been tilled by God to accept the Gospel, in effect have had their blindfold removed by God, thus the instruction... behavioral instruction... is seen again, this time with a heart that has been tilled and with eyes that can see, and it is joy to them to take it in and follow... The blindness is no more, for the Lord has given them spiritual sight, and all that you quote above are in agreement to the repentive behaviors of the unblinded... and thus are truly saved and are Christian.

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Let's discuss another one of those "thirtyish secondary* passages thought to support predestination", which relates directly to what you just said:

"If our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." 2Cor4:3-4

Hah! See? That's what you said, they are BLINDFOLDED and cannot believe or turn to God unless or until that blindfold is REMOVED!

Right?


...nooooot exactly...

"To this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away!" 2Cor3:15-16.

This issue is always "sequence" --- and which comes first, "Redeemed"? Turning-to-God, or blindfold/veil-removed? TURNING comes FIRST!!! Another "secondary" is Ezk36:26-27, where many think that God has to change their hearts first (remove the blindfold!) --- but the mirror passage is Ezk11:18-21 --- in 11:18 they turn to God and THEN He gives them new hearts! In 11:21 those who WILL not turn are in TROUBLE!

That's the value of context, for "Scripture interpreting Scripture". "Turning" comes before "new hearts"; that is why Ezk18:31 says "make for YOURSELVES a new heart and a new spirit"!

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One must be born first from above, then hearing, then faith and repentance, then obedience... the ordo salutis... a fairly understood tenet within the reformed theology camp.

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Okay --- we just discussed two prominent passages thought to promote "born-again before belief" --- and they don't. I didn't actually post Ezk36:26-27, but readers can look that up. Neither Ezk36 nor 2Cor4 asserts "the veil has to be removed (given new hearts) BEFORE they believe and turn to God"!

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As a help, here is the difference defined:

The ordo salutis is election / predestination, followed by evangelism, regeneration, conversion, justification, sanctification, and glorification. In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is evangelism, followed by faith / election, repentance, regeneration, justification, perseverance, and glorification.

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Focus on "regeneration" --- in Titus3:5-6, regeneration is by the Spirit-who-was-poured on us through Jesus our Savior. Regeneration is by the POURED Spirit --- "ekcheo-poured". It's the same word in Acts10:45-47, which in Acts11:17 is poured after belief. Poured/fell-upon/gifted/RECEIVED, in context.

So the true "ordo salutis" of regeneration is:
1. Poured Spirit (belief, receiving the Spirit through the SAVIOR Jesus)
2. Regeneration

Do you accept that the "ordo salutis" that you hold (in which you missed "faith"), is backwards? In the face of these verses we just discussed --- can you deny it? If one is "born-again" WITHOUT (before!) faith, then what was the point of the Cross? Jesus dying was mere pageantry in that case, wasn't it?

You didn't really miss "faith", did you? Faith has no part in the "ordo salutis" of Reformed Theology, does it? "Faith" is either a direct gift from God, or the irresistible consequence of "born-again by sovereign monergistic regeneration".

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Romans 8:29,30
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

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Those whom He FOREKNEW (pro-ginosko, knew before) --- who are they? In verse 28 they are those who LOVE God. "Love/belief", before "predestination".

What is the "predestination" to? Salvation? No! Those who love God are predestined BY their love to BE CHRISTLIKE! Zero "predestined-salvation". Please tell me how this can be in error.

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Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

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What is the "purpose of His will"?

"This is the WILL of God, that all who see Jesus AND BELIEVE may have eternal life." Jn6:40.

The will of God (thelema will-desire), is that all who see Jesus and believe be saved; Jn10:38 says "we can believe because-of seeing", Jn20:29 says "unseen belief is better than seen belief". God does not will (boulema-decree) any to perish, but patiently waits for all to repent (2Pet3:9)!


What do you think about the Scriptures we've discussed? Is anything established? All these verses that you've quoted, and I've quoted --- they fit together into a solid construction. Which does that construction support -- "predestined-salvation", or "free-choice"?

Whaddya think?


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* Remember there are "four primary passages thought to support Predestined-Salvation", Eph1:4-5, Eph1:11, Rom8:29-35, Rom9:11-21. There are a little over thirty "secondary passages thought to support" --- including 2Cor4:3-4, and Ezk36:26-27, which we just discussed here. Each one of those verses has been shown not to support "predestined-salvation", including those we have not yet discussed (like Acts13:48, and 1Jn5:1)...

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Originally Posted by Gadgeteer

What really happened with Paul, "Realist"? Did God take a godless sin-bent, Scripture-hating, God-hating, evil man --- and turn him towards Himself? No. Paul was a learned man, taught in Scripture; he thought "The Way" was against God, he thought he was helping God.

What Jesus told Paul that day, was: "No --- you're not helping Me."

In one instant Paul realized Jesus was the Messiah, and Jesus was God. So it wasn't a turn-around in serving God, it was correcting his mistake. Paul thought Christians were heretics. In Jesus' light Paul realized with shock that he was HARMING God, not serving Him. So what happened to Paul was NOT "changing his will" (he wanted to serve God), but changing the direction of the intent of his will. Paul was headed in one direction, and Jesus appeared and said: "You're going the wrong way; I'm over HERE."

Also, how many people does God bless with a "Damascus-Road" experience? Yes it happens, occasionally; it's very rare. To use that as part of any theology, it would have to happen frequently, "most often". But God does not force Himself on anyone. I've heard of those in Islam to whom Jesus appears in a dream --- "You want to follow the real God? I am He!" It's still offering them a choice. Same as what happened to Paul.

Mostly we affect who will believe, by our preaching. We are told to "SAVE others, snatching them from the fire"! That is persuasion-from-us, not a Damascus-Road experience...

(Jude23)

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That sounds nice.... But Paul watched Steven die.... Paul Killed Steven, and he pursued others to do the same... that's not a little mistake... That is cold blooded murder! And the Pharisee and the Sadducee they also Killed Jesus! Yet Jesus condemned them that they were of their father, Satan. They too thought they were doing God's work... Every man who believes has a mini Road to Damascus Experience, like Paul. That experience is God reaching out to us first, not us reaching out to God.

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Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace

Spot on !

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"Reformed Theology" is a very complicated construct; it is not made with one or two or three bricks, but is sophisticated. It appears clean and polished, with mahogany accents and chrome fastenings. It is built of many bricks/Bible-passages. That's why our posts here tend to be long --- we cannot deal with only one or two bricks, but must deal with the whole structure.

When we discuss theology, each of us disassembles what we have learned, and examines it brick-by-brick; we receive Scriptural bricks that others hold out to us, and we re-assemble all the bricks into a whole. We may find that what now is before us is nothing like the structure we had. There may have been holes before that we hadn't seen. In looking only through our own eyes, we may miss something that somebody else sees. By looking at our bricks through another's eyes, and by looking at bricks THEY set forth, maybe our vision and understanding is greater. We don't have to agree with everyone --- but we're compelled to consider every brick.

What do we end up with? If we're honest (and by Human nature it can be hard to be honest and unbiased for every one of us) --- what does the new structure support?

All Scripture is inspired by God; all Scripture fits together. Read by themselves, the "Primaries" (Eph1:4-5, Eph1:11, Rom8:29-35, and Rom9:11-21) seem to make a good foundation for "Reformed-Theology/Predestined-Salvation". The thirtyish secondaries seem to build a solid structure on that foundation. But what if we turn around and still see a pile of unused bricks? What if we turn BACK to our structure and realize there are large holes that have been trowelled over? This is the value of trying to be honest, no matter WHAT we believe; to disassemble our bricks, to take up ALL the bricks and to put them back together again and see what it builds.

Arminius was not right on everything. But his comments on things like Romans9 were exactly right; he noted that Rm9 mirrors Galatians4:21-31 --- perfect match. Romans9:8 is the same idea as Gal3:29. "Allegory of two peoples, two covenants", nothing about "predestined salvation". Connecting directly also with Genesis 25:23, Paul undeniably had Gen25 in mind when he wrote Rom9. Two peoples, two covenants, the second "also Gentiles".

The structure I see after using all the bricks, is not anywhere close to "Reformed Theology". What does everyone else see?

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Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace

That sounds nice.... But Paul watched Steven die.... Paul Killed Steven, and he pursued others to do the same... that's not a little mistake... That is cold blooded murder! And the Pharisee and the Sadducee they also Killed Jesus! Yet Jesus condemned them that they were of their father, satan. They too thought they were doing God's work... Every man who believes has a mini Road to Damascus Experience, like Paul. That experience is God reaching out to us first, not us reaching out to God.

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Not every one has Jesus appearing in a pool of light. Nevertheless, what happened to Paul was still in the realm of persuasion. Strong persuasion perhaps, but persuasion.

...why didn't God just change Paul's heart, without the light and the voice?

Clearly Paul's reaction, was: Oh!

I think in our discussions you and I have discovered that all four "founding passages" can be understood in a NON-predestinary meaning; and the secondaries we've discussed have been established solidly. We can't argue with 2Cor3:16, nor with Deut11:18 and 21. Each of the other secondaries can be proven similarly.

But nothing of "Reformed Theology", or any other OSAS view, can accommodate the "fall-from-salvation" verses. Sometimes they have names (like Alexander, Hymenaeus, Philetus, and Demas), sometimes they are US if we do not heed the warnings.

Salvation can never be lost, God will never leave us nor forsake us, of His gifts and calling He will not repent/revoke.

...but we can forfeit salvation by ourselves, if we do not continue in belief. Rom11:18-23! 2Tim2:11-13! 2Jn1:7-9! 2Cor11:3, and 13:5!!!

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Originally Posted by Gadgeteer

Not every one has Jesus appearing in a pool of light. Nevertheless, what happened to Paul was still in the realm of persuasion. Strong persuasion perhaps, but persuasion.

...why didn't God just change Paul's heart, without the light and the voice?

Clearly Paul's reaction, was: Oh!

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Yea Right LOL... OH!

Acts 8:1 Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death. And on that day a great persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2 Some devout men buried Stephen, and made loud lamentation over him.
3 But Saul began ravaging the church, entering house after house, and dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison.
4 Therefore, those who had been scattered went about preaching the word.


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Acts 9:1 Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest,
2 and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
3 As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him;
4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,
6 but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do."
7 The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one.
8 Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

I guess this is where he just states Oh? :hmm: Yea right. :rolleyes:

Gadgeteer, let me try to ask it again.

TRUE or FALSE: God knows the number of souls who will be saved to heaven and remain lost to hell BEFORE creation. That is to say before God created any being who could choose anything He knew the headcount of heaven and the headcount of hell.
TRUE or FALSE: God is not in control over who is saved and who is lost, that final number is totally an act of man's free-will and God can not change it. God can only call, the results will be of man's choice.

I have simplified this down to TRUE or FALSE, could you please answer them for me? Thanks