Jesus Does Not Allow Divorce-An Apology

[VerticalReality]

Genesis 2:7 "The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the BREATH of life, and the man became a living being."

Without the breath of life... the man is dead. The breath of life (our spirit)is what makes us a living being. When we die physically, the breath of life departs from us. Everyone on this planet who is physically alive has the (spirit) the breath of life in them. If they didn't, they would be dead.

Actually, I don't believe this passage is talking about the spirit but rather the soul. Look at the King James translation . . .

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

According to your reading here, we could not live if we are dead spiritually. However, before accepting the Lord Jesus Christ we are all dead spiritually and separated from God according to Ephesians 2:1-3. However, we all still have a soul, which is our mind, our will and our emotions.

[VerticalReality]

Actually, Alyssa, believe it or not I think you are touching on something I'm trying to say here in regards to what Jesus proclaimed in Matthew 19. You have shown that mankind can enter into a "covenant" without God actually bringing it together. Could this be why Moses was able to allow divorce under the Old Covenant?

I mean think about in the beginning as Jesus said. Who brought Adam and Eve together? God did. Sin didn't bring Adam and Eve together. The carnal mind did not bring Adam and Eve together. God brought Adam and Eve together.

It seems to me there is a huge difference between what God has brought together and what man has brought together. In Ezra 9 and 10, man brought themselves together with pagan wives. They later separated this union as well. However, the verse doesn't say, "What man has brought together let not man separate."

It says . . .

"What God has brought together let not man separate."

[Alyssa S]

Actually, Alyssa, believe it or not I think you are touching on something I'm trying to say here in regards to what Jesus proclaimed in Matthew 19. You have shown that mankind can enter into a "covenant" without God actually bringing it together. Could this be why Moses was able to allow divorce under the Old Covenant?

I mean think about in the beginning as Jesus said. Who brought Adam and Eve together? God did. Sin didn't bring Adam and Eve together. The carnal mind did not bring Adam and Eve together. God brought Adam and Eve together.

It seems to me there is a huge difference between what God has brought together and what man has brought together. In Ezra 9 and 10, man brought themselves together with pagan wives. They later separated this union as well. However, the verse doesn't say, "What man has brought together let not man separate."

It says . . .

"What God has brought together let not man separate."

Yes... that seems to make sense... Hmmmmm. (My brain is FRIED!!)
The Ezra story is definitely one we cannot ignore... and I have the same question as you! Grrrr.. this is so frustrating... because not everything harmonizes. The arguments you have are very strong... but then did you read what I presented in my last long post? About the earliest church fathers and everything else? Why did the earliest church fathers radically disapprove of remarriage? They were closer to the time of Christ. Hmmmm... I need a break. I'll come back later!

Thanks!
God bless... ~A

[VerticalReality]

Yes... that seems to make sense... Hmmmmm. (My brain is FRIED!!)
The Ezra story is definitely one we cannot ignore... and I have the same question as you! Grrrr.. this is so frustrating... because not everything harmonizes. The arguments you have are very strong... but then did you read what I presented in my last long post? About the earliest church fathers and everything else? Why did the earliest church fathers radically disapprove of remarriage? They were closer to the time of Christ. Hmmmm... I need a break. I'll come back later!

Thanks!
God bless... ~A

If we're speaking of two born again Christians, I radically disapprove of divorce and remarriage also. You won't get any argument from me there.

Let's look at this from your own example . . .

Israel is God's chosen people . . .

Israel is given the law and God informs them of what He expects . . .

Israel is carnal and makes covenant with Gibeonites against God's will . . .

Israel is then made aware of their error but God makes them honor their covenant . . .

However, what happens if Gibeonites no longer want to keep the covenant and then reject it and go about their own business?

Is Israel still bound by this man-made covenant?

Now onto how this translates to marriage . . .

Two unbelievers decide to bring themselves together . . .

One of those folks gets saved and puts their faith in Jesus Christ (now born again spiritually) . . .

The believer is now required Scripturally by Paul to honor the covenant they made because why? Paul says it is because we do not know if we may be able to save the other . . .

However, the unbeliever (the Gibeonites) decides they no longer want to be in this covenant . . .

The unbeliever (the Gibeonites) chooses to break covenant and depart . . .

Is the believer still bound?

Not according to Paul they're not . . .

Why? Could it be because God never brought that covenant together in the first place? Could it be because it was man and woman in their carnality who brought that relationship together? How are two people who don't know the Lord being brought together by Him in marriage? That doesn't make sense to me, and it's not how it happened in the beginning. In the beginning it was God that brought the two together. Adam and Eve did not bring themselves together.

Anyway, this has been an interesting conversation. The main thing Jesus taught us was that we are not to view things from a carnal perspective. Jesus showed us what it means to be spiritual people.

[Alaska]

Then perhaps you should relate your message to those of Israel who didn't believe God had joined them to pagan wives in Ezra 9 and 10. It doesn't appear those unions were considered to be a "sanctity", and it also doesn't appear as though God joined them together.

You are again showing yourself to be as Paul said bound to the law and not free in Christ to accept the NT that overrides some things of the OT. Why not then endorse polygamy? If you can justify yourself by the law with regard to divorce you can also do so with regard to polygamy.
It is the NT that determines what things have been abolished

The exception clause of 5:32 and 19:9 is in direct contradiction to Mark 10:11,12 and Lk 16:18 IF the exception clause is interpreted to mean that adultery is a legal grounds to divorce.

Alyssa, I would like you to read carefully the entire first post because it brings the relief that Jesus DID NOT allow divorce for adultery. Putting away for fornication is a term used in the Hebrew culture supported by Dt. that pertained to their practise of terminating an engagement, not a marriage. Hence in 5:32 Jesus is in effect saying that the only way a man can divorce his "wife" is if he does it before he gets married. The terms "husband" and "wife" were used to describe the engaged as is also supported by Dt. and Mt. 1.

There were many things done by those under the law that are not acceptable by the NT. What they did in Ezra is one of those things. Though under the first covenant that was justified.
Please someone stop those here who keep trying to justify things done in the OT that are now not justifiable by the NT.

VR, how on earth do you deny the many today who justify polygamy? Without the acceptance that the NT overrides some things of the OT, how can you justify divorce and not polygamy?

[VerticalReality]

You are again showing yourself to be as Paul said bound to the law and not free in Christ to accept the NT that overrides some things of the OT. Why not then endorse polygamy? If you can justify yourself by the law with regard to divorce you can also do so with regard to polygamy.
It is the NT that determines what things have been abolished

The exception clause of 5:32 and 19:9 is in direct contradiction to Mark 10:11,12 and Lk 16:18 IF the exception clause is interpreted to mean that adultery is a legal grounds to divorce.

Alyssa, I would like you to read carefully the entire first post because it brings the relief that Jesus DID NOT allow divorce for adultery. Putting away for fornication is a term used in the Hebrew culture supported by Dt. that pertained to their practise of terminating an engagement, not a marriage. Hence in 5:32 Jesus is in effect saying that the only way a man can divorce his "wife" is if he does it before he gets married. The terms "husband" and "wife" were used to describe the engaged as is also supported by Dt. and Mt. 1.

There were many things done by those under the law that are not acceptable by the NT. What they did in Ezra is one of those things. Though under the first covenant that was justified.
Please someone stop those here who keep trying to justify things done in the OT that are now not justifiable by the NT.

VR, how on earth do you deny the many today who justify polygamy? Without the acceptance that the NT overrides some things of the OT, how can you justify divorce and not polygamy?

Alaska, apparently you do not understand whatsoever what is being said here. Jesus didn't abolish anything in Matthew 5 or 19. He simply clarified something that carnal people miss . . .

Let me try to simplify this thing . . .

In the beginning God brought together Adam and Eve . . .

There was no divorce . . .

There was only harmony in spirit and unity between both . . .

Then comes the fall . . .

Now we have sin and hard-heartedness . . .

Now we have men doing things the way they want to do things . . .

We have men that are dead spiritually and not caring what God has to say on the matter . . .

We have men entering into marriages that God never brought together . . .

Being that these marriages were never brought together by God in the first place . . . Moses can allow divorce since it was just a carnal union brought about by man . . .

Jesus comes and informs folks about how things were intended to be in the beginning . . .

In the beginning there is no divorce . . .

In the beginning there is no polygamy . . .

In the beginning there is no men bringing themselves together with women who are excluding God from the process . . .

So, to make it as simple as I possibly can . . .

"What God has joined together let not man separate."

There is a reason why Israel could leave those pagan wives in Ezra 9 and 10. It is because God never brought them together to begin with.

God does not have anything to do with that which is carnal . . .

In fact, Paul makes it clear that to be carnally minded is death . . .

To be carnal is enmity between us and God . . .

This is why I've been trying to get you to dig a little deeper instead of just looking at things by the letter.

[BCF]

Alyssa S & paintdiva,

I will answer the both of you with this response, since my answer will pertain to both of your questions. I hope anyway.

I don't believe that we have a problem agreeing on the fact that we all have a Spirit, a Body, and a Soul. If I am wrong assuming this well then we are really going to have a problem with the scripture. Anyway, I am going to assume for now just for giggles that we can agree on this.

Now moving forward God did two things in the beginning when he created male and female. In Genesis 1:27 God created male and female in his own image and stopped. End of story. God did not do anything else to his creation. God did not give it a body out of dust in Genesis 1, and God also did not give his creation a Soul (which is the breath of life) in Genesis 1. God did not do anything to his creation at all in Genesis 1 except create it in His own perfect image, which was Spirit. Now, what is a Spirit? A Spirit is something that we as humans can not see, touch or smell. A Spirit is like the wind. It is there, but you can't see it. That is what God had in the beginning when it came to male and female. Not when it came to the trees and animals and everything else that was created on the earth in Genesis 1, because they were not made in Gods perfect image, which is a Spirit. The only thing that was made in God's perfect image during the creation in Genesis 1, was male and female in the beginning.

Now this is not excepted by Scholars today because they simply refuse to except what God did. Genesis 1 was the Creation of the World. Genesis 2 was the Creation of Man. They are two separate things. Yes God did create male and female in his own Perfect Image which can only be in the form of a Spirit in Genesis 1:27. But that was during the creation of the world. God did not create man until Genesis 2. It is not until Genesis 2 that God makes his creation become a living Soul, by breathing the breath of life into a formed body which he made out of the dust of the ground, to cover the Spirit that God had already created in Genesis 1:27. When God created the World.

Every person has a Spirit, and a soul, which lives in a body. Our Spirit is made up of God because God is a Spirit (John 4:24). Our Spirit is in the image of God because God created us in His Image (Genesis 1:27).
Our Spirit is the DNA that links us all who were born into this world to God. There is no one who can escape the image of God. Because He placed His image inside of each of us before we were born, because He created us.
Now I can't remember who it was but someone on this thread was mentioning something about John the Baptist, and on how great of a prophet or teacher he was, other then Jesus. Well yes he was I don't disagree with them on what they were claiming, but, John the Baptist was no perfect man at all. John the Baptist was still born into sin just like every single one of us were. John the Baptist was not placed into his mother's womb like Jesus was placed into the womb of Mary. Yes John the Baptist was a great man, but John the Baptist was not a perfect man. But John the Baptist was born with the Holy Ghost already in him. Scripture proves that in Luke 1:15. Here the Bible tells us this "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine or strong drink; AND HE SHALL BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, EVEN FROM HIS MOTHER'S WOMB." John the Baptist did not need to wait on Jesus to die for his sins to receive the Holy Ghost. John the Baptist was born with the Holy Ghost in him already. Well my friends this is imposable to do unless we have a Spirit from God at birth to begin with, which ever single one of us do.

Our Soul is made up of three parts of our inner person. One is our mind, the other is our will and the other is our emotions. We as humans spent a great deal of our time on a daily basis living out of these parts of our inner person that we call the Soul. Before we are saved the Spirit of God works with our Soul (our mind,will,and emotions) to steer us in the direction of Christ. This is done through various ways whether it be Church, TV, Internet, School, Friends, Experience's, whatever. However the way God needs to use to get our attention He will use it, and God goes through the Spirit of himself that was planted inside of us at birth in order to reach the Soul which controls our mind, will and emotions. Wants God reaches us and we accept Him as Lord that Spirit which was in us becomes ALIVE inside of us and gives us a hunger and a thirst for Gods Word. I like what it says in Hebrew 4:12 when I explain this, you may like something else, I don't know. Anyway in Hebrews 4:12 it says "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper then any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a descerner of thoughts and intents of the heart. Without our Spirit being in the image of God at birth we as humans would not stand a chance in todays world when it comes to our Soul and what it controls. We need Gods Spirit in His Image inside of us in order to be able to be drawn toward him when we are among the lost. There is not a one of us who can say that they were saved from birth.

As for the Body, it consist of the physical components like touching, smelling, hearing, seeing and so forth. But even though the body goes back to dust after this life as we know it, it is still a very important part for God in this life as we know it, with a very important role. This place we call the body houses our Spirit and our Soul, and once we are saved and accept Jesus. Jesus comes to live inside of this body with us which is what we call the Holy Spirit. The Bible clearly stats this in 1st Corinthians 6:19 where Paul writes "What? know you not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which you have of God, and you are not your own." But this only happens after we become saved not before. This only happens after we have become transformed with our Spirit Soul and Body. Being transformed Spirit Soul and Body is what Jesus was talking about when he said that you must be Born Again in John 3:3 that so many people do not understand. Paul explains in Romans 12:1-2 the importance of this transformation when he writes this "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Without this transformation of Spirit Soul and Body, we can never enter into the kingdom of heaven. But before we can even think about making a transformation we need to have a starting point. That starting point is the Spiritual Image of our Lord planted inside of each and every single one of us before we are even born. Without it we have no starting point and no place to go, and God has nothing to work with. Yes that Spirit that we have is dead, but it is dead to the word of God, not to God himself. Our Spirit before we are saved communicates with our conscience. Then our conscience in turn starts to communicate with our mind and our will and our emotions which is all attached to our Soul. Then our Spirit and Soul starts to communicate with what we see and with what we hear which is attached to our Bodies, and before we even know what hit us it reaches our hearts and we start to realize how wrong we have been, and the transformation begins as Paul described in Romans 12:1-2.

So you see my friends, God Joins Two People Together first through their Spirits, in order to form a Marriage, just like he did in the very beginning. Why does God do this? Well so they can Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth John 4:24. It is for this reason that Jesus said when asked the question about divorce, "Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives, but from the beginning it was not so." The heart of man is going to follow the Spirit of man every time. If the heart of man is after God (which is Love) then the Spirit of man is alive. If the heart of man is conformed to this world (false love) the Spirit of man is dead. This is the problem we have with marriages today. We have men and woman who are conformed to this world (false love) who are Spiritually dead. Getting married and thinking that they are doing it in the name of God (which is TRUE LOVE) and God had nothing to do with there Marriage, because their Spirit is dead to him. The scriptures speak of this from the OT through the NT. We just refuse to except it as truth.

Alyssa S, you asked me to give you the missing link to your problem which would be the answer in turning what is grey into black and white. This I can not do, only God can. All I can do is present what God has showed me in my Spirit. I am not a Scholar in Theology and have no Theology training or diplomas on my walls to speak of. All I have is a desire in my heart to proclaim the Love of Christ to a Confused World. Given to me By My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That is all I have. Don't get me wrong, I do not in any way promote divorce. I have a brother on this board who I told would be doing wrong if he got a divorce. But that was a different case, and that is the way God led me, and as a result God restored their marriage. But this is not always the case because God is not in every marriage. God just happen to be in that one with my brother. My last marriage I was in God was not, and I have discussed that with VR and others on this board who can tell you. I do not go off of what man says, I go off of scripture as you say in harmony. The scripture in harmony talks about a Spiritual union between God, Our Lord Jesus, and us 99.9 percent of the time. The other 0.1 percent of the time it is talking about a fleshly union between God, Our Lord Jesus, and us. God could care less about this body that we live in, but the Spirit which he created in His Own Perfect likeness is what he sent His Son to Die on a Cross For. It is that Spirit which God created that God uses to Join man and woman in Marriage, so they can become one flesh. Whether we as men and women want to except this or not.

God Bless

Dave

[BCF]

I'm sorry for my last post being so long. But there is no short answer to it.

[awestruckchild]

BCF-
I enjoyed reading your post.

I guess I don't look at myself so much as created in His image as a sort of twisted or perverted abstaction of His image.
I think it was Gen 5:3 that led me to think this, because yes, Adam was made in His image, but then Adam had a son, Seth, in his image and likeness after the "fall"
At any rate, thank God He didn't leave me that way but is remaking me.

[BCF]

BCF-
I enjoyed reading your post.

I guess I don't look at myself so much as created in His image as a sort of twisted or perverted abstaction of His image.
I think it was Gen 5:3 that led me to think this, because yes, Adam was made in His image, but then Adam had a son, Seth, in his image and likeness after the "fall"
At any rate, thank God He didn't leave me that way but is remaking me.

In Genesis 5:3 with regards to the birth of Seth, let me ask you this if I may. Adam created his son Seth in his own image which was what? Was it a image of flesh or a image of Spirit?

In Genesis 5:1 the Bible says that God created man in the likeness of God made he him. We have already seen that God's creation was different then Adams creation. But without God nothing gets created in the first place, not even Seth. Because Adam can't give breath of life to Seth. Adam can only give likeness or DNA, which would be flesh.

God Bless

Dave

[awestruckchild]

Was it an image of flesh or an image of spirit?
Hmmm....
Might be getting a little deep for my mind to follow there.
I guess I would say..........he had Seth in his own image which was a putrid, dying- from- the- moment he was born flesh and..............a badly crippled and imprisoned spirit............

[Alaska]

In Genesis 1:27 God created male and female in his own image and stopped. End of story. God did not do anything else to his creation. God did not give it a body out of dust in Genesis 1, and God also did not give his creation a Soul (which is the breath of life) in Genesis 1. God did not do anything to his creation at all in Genesis 1 except create it in His own perfect image, which was Spirit.

Gen. 2 is a more detailed account of what he described in general terms in Gen.1.
Gen. two gives detail on how the woman was made: from Adams rib as he slept. Saying she was made in Spirit in Gen one and then made flesh in Gen. 2 doesn't fit. The account in Gen. 2 is a detailed account of how she was created (fully flesh and blood). The same for the man. He was created flesh and then given life by the breath of God. Opposite from what you are claiming.

[BCF]

Gen. 2 is a more detailed account of what he described in general terms in Gen.1.
Gen. two gives detail on how the woman was made: from Adams rib as he slept. Saying she was made in Spirit in Gen one and then made flesh in Gen. 2 doesn't fit. The account in Gen. 2 is a detailed account of how she was created (fully flesh and blood). The same for the man. He was created flesh and then given life by the breath of God. Opposite from what you are claiming.

What you have been taught is religion. What I am teaching you is a relationship. There is a HUGE
difference between the two.

If you want to believe that you don't have a Spirit (which is just what you are saying) that is your choice, and their is nothing I or anyone else can do about it. The Spirit of God that resides in each and every single one of us from birth is the most important thing that we have. Without it we have nothing to discern from right and wrong, and no defense from Satan.

And people want to know why God does not do anything about the things that are going on in todays world. It's not that God is not doing anything, it's that we won't listen because we are smarter then God.

God Bless

Dave

[BCF]

Was it an image of flesh or an image of spirit?
Hmmm....
Might be getting a little deep for my mind to follow there.
I guess I would say..........he had Seth in his own image which was a putrid, dying- from- the- moment he was born flesh and..............a badly crippled and imprisoned spirit............

Adam was a man. Man can not make a Spirit and give life to a Soul. Man can only make flesh. Which is why cloning will never work. Man will be able to make a carbon copy of another man. But man will never be able to make a carbon copy of God's Spirit. And man will never be able to give life to a Soul. That is something that God did that only God can control. This is why cloning will never be successful IMO.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 10:28 "fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but fear him which is able to destroy both body and soul in hell". Here in this verse Jesus plainly tells us that we are not to be concerned about those who can kill the body, but we are to be concerned about him who can destroy both the Soul and the Body. Man can kill the body yes, but man can not touch our Souls or Our Spirits only God can. Why is this? Because man can make a body, but man can not make a Spirit and give life to a Soul. Even Satan can not touch the Spirit or the Soul of a man without God's approval. Satan can touch the body all he wants to, but he can not touch the Spirit or the Soul. Why? Because the Spirit and the Soul belong to God, until God determines where that Spirit spends it's Eternal life. And that my friend depends on whether we choose life, or whether we choose death. The choice is Ours. God forces nothing on anyone.

God Bless

Dave

[Alyssa S]

Gen. 2 is a more detailed account of what he described in general terms in Gen.1.
Gen. two gives detail on how the woman was made: from Adams rib as he slept. Saying she was made in Spirit in Gen one and then made flesh in Gen. 2 doesn't fit. The account in Gen. 2 is a detailed account of how she was created (fully flesh and blood). The same for the man. He was created flesh and then given life by the breath of God. Opposite from what you are claiming.

Hi Dave... I appreciate your post and the time you put into it. I do agree that man is made up of a body, a soul, and a spirit.
1 Thess 5:23 "May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

I do, however, agree with Alaska that Genesis 2 was giving detail of how man and woman were made. I really cannot see where you are interpreting that God gave the spirit first. Scripture clearly says that he 1.) Formed the man from the dust of the ground
2.) Breathed into his nostrils the breath of life...and then man became a living soul. That's how it is recorded.

When you go to Genesis 1:1 it says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Then, in Chapter 2 it says, "By the seventh day God had FINISHED the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work."

Would you agree that God was finished by the seventh day... and everything had been created? That verse is pretty clear. There was no more creating left to do.

If God only created a spirit in Gen1 without a body or soul, then how do we explain Gen 1:28? "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it...." How could they increase in number if they didn't have a body to do it with??

Now Chapter 2:4 "This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created....When the Lord God made the Heavens....:7 "the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul."

This is just showing HOW man was made.

As far as man being the image of God, this is what I believe:

When God said, "Let us make man in (OUR) image", who is he referring to by saying "our"? "OUR" is obviously plural... so he must be referring to the TRINITY:
1.)The Invisible Father - (Spirit) ...No one has seen God the Father, and no one CAN see Him but the Son. Jn 1:18.
2.) The Holy SPIRIT - (Soul)
3.) The SON - (Body).. "The Image of the Invisible God." Col 1:15

So when we read, "Let us make man in OUR image" we see that we are a representation of his image and likeness:
We are made up of a BODY, SOUL, and SPIRIT.