Alive or Dead?

***VerticalReality*** · Oct 28th 2007, 08:59 PM

This is something I think would be interesting to discuss.

I'm interested to see what the overall opinion is here among believers. Do you believe that the OT saints were born again spiritually?

Were Abraham, David, Isaiah, Elijah, and so on alive spiritually or were they dead in trespasses like Ephesians 2 describes?

What makes one born again? Does it have to be someone looking back in faith at what Jesus Christ did for man on the cross, or can an Old Testament saint look forward to the same event in faith and be born again?

Thoughts?

***ProjectPeter*** · Oct 28th 2007, 09:16 PM

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

If they ain't... they ain't there.

I gotta go with they are there.

***VerticalReality*** · Oct 28th 2007, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by ProjectPeter

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

If they ain't... they ain't there.

I gotta go with they are there.

Right. However, some would argue that they went there after Jesus Christ died on the cross and redeemed them of their sins because they weren't able to go there before His death.

It seems to me that those who are "dead in trespasses" are those who haven't repented of their sin and believed by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, either by what they believe was to come or what they believe came to pass.

***Soj*** · Oct 28th 2007, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by VerticalReality

This is something I think would be interesting to discuss.

I'm interested to see what the overall opinion is here among believers. Do you believe that the OT saints were born again spiritually?

Were Abraham, David, Isaiah, Elijah, and so on alive spiritually or were they dead in trespasses like Ephesians 2 describes?

What makes one born again? Does it have to be someone looking back in faith at what Jesus Christ did for man on the cross, or can an Old Testament saint look forward to the same event in faith and be born again?

Thoughts?

It's evident that the new birth is a New Testament doctrine and is connected with the Holy Spirit entering the believer and awakening his/her spirit which was dead in trespasses and sins, and from that point onwards the Spirit of God lives within that individual.

So I don't believe the Old Testament saints were born again, at least not in the same way a NT saint is. From scripture it is apparent that the Spirit of God was abiding "on" them in the OT but not "in" them, and there are accounts of the Holy Spirit leaving individuals, such as king Saul, and with Samson He left and then came back. Hence why David prayed for God not to remove his Spirit from him.

It is only in the NT, beginning in Acts 2 that the Holy Spirit began dwelling inside the believer whose body becomes the temple of God, whereas in the OT God dwelt in a temple made with hands, eg Moses's tabernacle & Solomon's temple.

***ProjectPeter*** · Oct 28th 2007, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by VerticalReality

Right. However, some would argue that they went there after Jesus Christ died on the cross and redeemed them of their sins because they weren't able to go there before His death.

It seems to me that those who are "dead in trespasses" are those who haven't repented of their sin and believed by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, either by what they believe was to come or what they believe came to pass.

It don't matter when they get there... as long as they get there. That doesn't change the principle.

**cross crusader** · Oct 28th 2007, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by VerticalReality

This is something I think would be interesting to discuss.

I'm interested to see what the overall opinion is here among believers. Do you believe that the OT saints were born again spiritually?

Were Abraham, David, Isaiah, Elijah, and so on alive spiritually or were they dead in trespasses like Ephesians 2 describes?

What makes one born again? Does it have to be someone looking back in faith at what Jesus Christ did for man on the cross, or can an Old Testament saint look forward to the same event in faith and be born again?

Thoughts?

Dear VR,
Is one born again without receiving the promise of the father? LUke 24:49, Acts 4:1, Or did they each receive the Holy spirit? or is one saved without the Holy Spirit? What about Romans 4:16 and following, is Paul implying that they are born again, what promise are they receiving?

***VerticalReality*** · Oct 28th 2007, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by ProjectPeter

It don't matter when they get there... as long as they get there. That doesn't change the principle.

Right, but that's not really the question. The question is, while Isaiah was alive and walking this earth, did he have a born again spirit or was he dead in trespasses? I think you can say by either view that Old Testament saints are with the Lord. However, the question is whether or not they were born again and with the Lord before Jesus' death and resurrection or were they sent to a holding place after death because they were not born again until after Jesus died on the cross and rose again.

***VerticalReality*** · Oct 28th 2007, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by cross crusader

Dear VR,
Is one born again without receiving the promise of the father? LUke 24:49, Acts 4:1, Or did they each receive the Holy spirit? or is one saved without the Holy Spirit? What about Romans 4:16 and following, is Paul implying that they are born again, what promise are they receiving?

Hey, I'm the one asking the questions here, buddy!

***Sold Out*** · Oct 29th 2007, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by VerticalReality

Does it have to be someone looking back in faith at what Jesus Christ did for man on the cross, or can an Old Testament saint look forward to the same event in faith and be born again?

I absolutely agree with this statement.

Jesus said Himself that Abraham saw His day and was glad. (John 8:56)

Moses chose Christ over the riches of this world. (Hebrews 11:26)

When Nicodemus approached Christ to ask him how to be saved, Jesus pointed out that Nicodemus was a 'master of Israel', and should understand about the new birth. (John 3:7-10)

***VerticalReality*** · Oct 29th 2007, 07:22 PM

The main reason I ask is because by reading Scripture it seems as if many of the Old Testament had a relationship with God that is much the same as many born again Christians today. In fact, many in the Old Testament seem to have an even closer relationship. I read about folks such as Abraham, Isaiah or Elijah and they seem to have extremely close relationships with the Lord. So close, in fact, that the Lord spoke to them on a continual basis in what appears by Scripture to be through their spirit. When God spoke to Elijah in 1 Kings 19 in that "still small voice", this surely doesn't sound like an audible voice heard through the natural ear . . .

1 Kings 19:11-12
Then He said, “Go out, and stand on the mountain before the LORD.” And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore into the mountains and broke the rocks in pieces before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake; and after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice.

How could some folks in the Old Testament hear from God in what many today would consider a dead spirit?

***ProjectPeter*** · Oct 29th 2007, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by VerticalReality

The main reason I ask is because by reading Scripture it seems as if many of the Old Testament had a relationship with God that is much the same as many born again Christians today. In fact, many in the Old Testament seem to have an even closer relationship. I read about folks such as Abraham, Isaiah or Elijah and they seem to have extremely close relationships with the Lord. So close, in fact, that the Lord spoke to them on a continual basis in what appears by Scripture to be through their spirit. When God spoke to Elijah in 1 Kings 19 in that "still small voice", this surely doesn't sound like an audible voice heard through the natural ear . . .

How could some folks in the Old Testament hear from God in what many today would consider a dead spirit?

Cause they weren't dead in spirit.

***Pleroo*** · Oct 29th 2007, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by VerticalReality

This is something I think would be interesting to discuss.

I'm interested to see what the overall opinion is here among believers. Do you believe that the OT saints were born again spiritually?

Were Abraham, David, Isaiah, Elijah, and so on alive spiritually or were they dead in trespasses like Ephesians 2 describes?

What makes one born again? Does it have to be someone looking back in faith at what Jesus Christ did for man on the cross, or can an Old Testament saint look forward to the same event in faith and be born again?

Thoughts?

3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." 4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" 5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." 9 "How can this be?" Nicodemus asked. 10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?

It would appear, from Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus, that the idea of being born again was not a new concept. He indicates that, as a teacher, Nicodemus should understand it. Since all Nicodemus had to go by at that time was the OT examples, there must have been something there which should have led him to an understanding of being born again.

***VerticalReality*** · Oct 29th 2007, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by ProjectPeter

Cause they weren't dead in spirit.

Which is why I believe this question has been nagging at me. You see most of those I've been surrounded with since I've been saved have taught that all those in the Old Testament weren't alive spiritually since Jesus hadn't died on the cross yet. They also teach that His Spirit was unable to dwell in those of the Old Testament because those folks were dead in sin. They teach that the Holy Spirit could only "come upon" those saints and not "dwell in" them, and Jesus' death and resurrection changed all that.

However, simply thinking on what it takes to be saved . . . Scripture simply says to repent and believe.

Taking this same concept, even the Old Testament saints did the same, so why couldn't they be born again as well?

Do you have any Scriptures you would like to share on the topic, PP?

***ProjectPeter*** · Oct 29th 2007, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by VerticalReality

Which is why I believe this question has been nagging at me. You see most of those I've been surrounded with since I've been saved have taught that all those in the Old Testament weren't alive spiritually since Jesus hadn't died on the cross yet. They also teach that His Spirit was unable to dwell in those of the Old Testament because those folks were dead in sin. They teach that the Holy Spirit could only "come upon" those saints and not "dwell in" them, and Jesus' death and resurrection changed all that.

However, simply thinking on what it takes to be saved . . . Scripture simply says to repent and believe.

Taking this same concept, even the Old Testament saints did the same, so why couldn't they be born again as well?

Do you have any Scriptures you would like to share on the topic, PP?

Short the one I posted already... here's another. I'll post more later.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure.
3 ¶Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful search and inquiry,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven -- things into which angels long to look.

Those that believed... they simply looked forward to the cross as opposed to us looking behind us. But they still looked to Christ and Him suffering. They may not have understood because it was much a mystery to them. But they nonetheless believed. Looking for the term "born again" in the old testament is where most folks get hung up because it ain't there. But the concept... it is certainly there.

***VerticalReality*** · Oct 29th 2007, 09:05 PM

Also, the Word says that those who are of the seed of Abraham will walk by faith and they will be saved. Those Scriptures don't give a prerequisite that you have to be born on the latter side of the cross. You are either a seed of Abraham or you're not. If you are I don't see how you would be dead in trespasses as those of faith will repent and turn from sin.

When I look at Ephesians 2 I don't see Old Testament saints . . .

Ephesians 2:1-3
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.