Behold He Cometh With The Clouds!!!!!!

[Steven3]

Hi LH

Good evening, Steven, you will have to do better – you have disproved nothing. We meet the LORD in the air

No, sorry, but this time the onus is on you to have to do better As I said, you're welcome to go do some research and find a classical Greek text where "in apantesis" means the guest being welcomed into a town does a U-turn and takes the welcoming party away with him.

Biblical references regarding the fate of the earth are based on many passages (already listed)

Yes, I listed some OT parallels to 2 Peter 3 here, but as with Peter in Isaiah and Zephaniah we're left with a "new heavens and a new earth" not just a "new heaven" only.

Again, I ask – if Jesus does not now reign as King of kings on David’s spiritual throne in His kingdom on whose thrown does He reign today?

LH, can I ask if you own a copy of Youngs? Have you ever sat down, away from the keyboard, and slowly contrasted the present tense kingdom verses and future tense kingdom verses in the NT?
God bless
Steven

[losthorizon]

...No, sorry, but this time the onus is on you to have to do better As I said, you're welcome to go do some research and find a classical Greek text where "in apantesis" means the guest being welcomed into a town does a U-turn and takes the welcoming party away with him.

Steven - you are quite wrong once again – the burden is on you and I do not need non-biblical classical Greek to justify my position – I have God’s word. As already mentioned “apantesis” is from the Greek root word “apantao” which simply means “a friendly encounter”, i.e., those who “meet the Lord in the air” will have a friendly encounter with the Lord “in the air” when He delivers the kingdom up to the Father in Heaven – the kingdom is not delivered to anyone “on earth” on that "Day". This is Bible 101.

The text clearly tells us the fate of this earth when ..."the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat” and “the earth and its works will be burned up.” It doesn’t get any clearer than that. Your silly "in apantesis" argument is simply another “u-turn” you take to advance your tired and weak argument that holds no water. It's your red herring is it not?

LH, can I ask if you own a copy of Youngs? Have you ever sat down, away from the keyboard, and slowly contrasted the present tense kingdom verses and future tense kingdom verses in the NT?

I use Young’s and other study aids and they all reinforce the biblical doctrine that the kingdom of Christ was established in heaven and on earth when Jesus was seated on the throne of David at God’s right hand after His Resurrection and Ascencion into Heaven. Jesus reigns on the same throne today as Lord of lords and King of kings. Peter was give the “keys to the kingdom” and on the Day of Pentecost over 3000 Jews "obeyed from the heart" the gospel of Christ and were "batized into Christ Jesus", i.e., they were “translated" out of Satan’s kingdom and placed by God into "the kingdom of God’s dear Son."

"I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ…" (Rev. 1: 9).

I will again ask you – of what I just laid out above – what does not square with Holy Writ? Be specific and we can go into greater detail. Also you didn't answer my question to you - if Jesus does not now reign as King of kings on David’s spiritual throne in His kingdom on whose thrown does He reign today?

[Kahtar]

Your silly "in apantesis" argument is simply another “u-turn” you take to advance your tired and weak argument that holds no water. It's your red herring is it not?

Board Rules
c. Be gracious to other posters. No insults, flaming, name calling or personal attacks, etc.
When someone disagrees with you, by all means discuss it; but be slow to anger, and rather be eager to get into the Word and find the answers.

Please discuss the topic, not each other, and do so politely.

[Steven3]

Hi LH

Steven - you are quite wrong once again – the burden is on you and I do not need non-biblical classical Greek to justify my position – I have God’s word

We all have God's word bro . And so far we've only seen God's word has the virgins "welcoming in" the bridesgroom, the Romans "welcoming in" Paul at Appii. The burden is on someone who wants to challenge this NT usage of apantesis to provide an example in Greek of apantesis meaning that the incoming guest does not enter, and takes the 10 virgins/Roman bre away with him.

"I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ…" (Rev. 1: 9).

My point re Youngs was that the benefit of a concordance is that we can survey how the NT contains both present tense and future tense kingdom verses. Anyone who wants to understand what the NT teaches about the kingdom can easily tabulate the present tense kingdom and future tense kingdom into two columns and let the Word of God have its say...

I will again ask you – of what I just laid out above – what does not square with Holy Writ? Be specific and we can go into greater detail. Also you didn't answer my question to you - if Jesus does not now reign as King of kings on David’s spiritual throne in His kingdom on whose thrown does He reign today?

I thought I'd answered clearly but am happy to be given opportunity to do so again, Christ sits now at God's right hand, on an unnamed throne, on the priestly "throne of grace" as Hebrews puts it, a priestly throne that David never sat on. David did not sit on "the throne of grace", nor did David sit at God's right hand.

May I answer with scripture? Matt25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.


NT uses of "reign" (all future, have I missed a present tense one?)

• 1Co15:25 (after the return and resurrection) For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
• 1Tim 6:15 (after the return and resurrection) which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
• 2Tim 2:12 (after the return and resurrection) if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;
• Revelation 5:10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”

God bless
Steven

[losthorizon]

...We all have God's word bro. And so far we've only seen God's word has the virgins "welcoming in" the bridesgroom, the Romans "welcoming in" Paul at Appii. The burden is on someone who wants to challenge this NT usage of apantesis to provide an example in Greek of apantesis meaning that the incoming guest does not enter, and takes the 10 virgins/Roman bre away with him.

You can keep dragging your red herring across the page but you have never negated what the word plainly teaches about the fate of the earth – it is destroyed by fire when those Christians alive at His coming are “caught up” to meet Him “in the air” and the kingdom of His dear Son is “delivered up to God” in Heaven. No mention of delivering the kingdom to any one on earth – and why is that? - because the earth and all the elements have dissolved – gone.

I thought I'd answered clearly but am happy to be given opportunity to do so again, Christ sits now at God's right hand, on an unnamed throne, on the priestly "throne of grace" as Hebrews puts it, a priestly throne that David never sat on. David did not sit on "the throne of grace", nor did David sit at God's right hand.

Peter affirmed that Jesus had been "raised up" to sit on David's throne. He first affirms that, “David…is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day – then Peter says that Jesus was "raised up" to sit on David's throne, “Therefore being a prophet [David], and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him [David], that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his [David's] throne.” Jesus was raised up to set on whose throne – on David’s throne. (Acts 2: 29, 30) This all came to pass in the First Century - Christ reigns today on David's throne - in heaven where He is our great High Priest - forever.

It was to this end that He was born, “For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given” and He prophesied to set “upon the throne of David and over His kingdom”. When was He to do this?? – when His kingdom was established. When was that kingdom to be established?? – when Jesus shall “rule upon his throne” and “be a priest upon his throne”. When was Jesus set on His throne?? – when God “raised Him up to sit on his throne” shortly after His resurrection from the dead. Was He at that time (First Century) a priest on His throne?? – yes – “Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.” (Hebrews 5:6). Thus Jesus fulfilled Psalm 110:4, “The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.”

[Steven3]

Hi LH

You can keep dragging your red herring across the page

I really don't think providing people with a link to how "go to welcome" is used in the other 3 NT instances constitutes "dragging my red herring across the page" , and it's not a herring it's a haddock. I'm simply pointing out that Paul could have used sunantesis instead of apantesis if he expected Christ to turn around and go back:

Matthew 8:34 And behold, all the city came out to meet (EIS SUNANTHSIN, not EIS APANTHSIN in this case) Jesus, and when they saw him, they begged him to leave their region.

No one is obliged to note the difference between the two words for "meet". You choose not to, I expect others will follow your example. Great

Peter affirmed that Jesus had been "raised up" to sit on David's throne. He first affirms that, “David…is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day – then Peter says that Jesus was "raised up" to sit on David's throne, “Therefore being a prophet [David], and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him [David], that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his [David's] throne.” Jesus was raised up to set on whose throne – on David’s throne. (Acts 2: 29, 30) This all came to pass in the First Century - Christ reigns today on David's throne - in heaven where He is our great High Priest - forever.

Matt 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will (future tense) sit on his glorious throne, then you who have followed me will (future tense) also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matt 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes (future tense) in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will (future tense) sit on his glorious throne.

Peace!
Steven

[Firstfruits]

We seem to be back and forth over wether or not this earth will be detroyed at the return of Christ.

What does the bible say will happen?

Nahum 1:5 The mountains quake at him, and The hills melt, and The earth is burned at his presence, yea, The world, and all that dwell Therein.

Psalm 75:2,3.
2 When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly.
3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah

Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Do we agree with that which is written?

Will the following be fulfilled that we may see the New Jerusalem?

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

[losthorizon]

...I really don't think providing people with a link to how "go to welcome" is used in the other 3 NT instances constitutes "dragging my red herring across the page", and it's not a herring it's a haddock. I'm simply pointing out that Paul could have used sunantesis instead of apantesis if he expected Christ to turn around and go back:

Of course you are free to believe what you will, Steven. And you can speculate about the use of “sunantesis instead of apantesis” until the cows come home but Holy Writ records the Greek exactly as God intended and such speculation does not change the fact that the earth will be destroyed by fire shortly after those Christians alive at His second coming are “caught up” to meet the Lord “in the air”. Then the “kingdom of His dear Son” is “delivered up to God” into Heaven.

What you have never explained is why the Bible does not mention a delivering back down to earth of the kingdom of God. Why are we not informed that any one or any place located on the so-called “paradise on earth” will receive the kingdom? Isn’t the reason simply because the earth and all the elements will have been dissolved when He comes "in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don’t know God and on those who refuse to obey the gospel of Christ"?

No one is obliged to note the difference between the two words for "meet". You choose not to, I expect others will follow your example. Great.

Again – I only follow what was taught to God’s servants by the Holy Spirit and preserved for our edification in the Bible. You wouldn’t accept anything less – right?

Matt 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will (future tense) sit on his glorious throne, then you who have followed me will (future tense) also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matt 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes (future tense) in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will (future tense) sit on his glorious throne.

Your verses above to not address my argument. (1) Do you agree that Peter affirmed through inspiration that Jesus has been "raised up" to sit on David's throne? (2) Did Peter affirm that, “David…is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day? (3) Did Peter say that Jesus was "raised up" for that very purpose - to “sit on David's throne”?

“Therefore being a prophet [David], and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him [David], that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his [David's] throne.” Jesus was raised up to set on whose throne?? – was it not on David’s throne. (Acts 2: 29, 30)

This all came to pass in the First Century, i.e., Christ reigns today on David's throne - in heaven where He is our great High Priest - forever. It you disagree with anything I have presented above, please point out where you disagree and why and we can discuss it in more detail. Thanks.

[Steven3]

Hey LH

What you have never explained is why the Bible does not mention a delivering back down to earth of the kingdom of God.

Like "thy kingdom come" you mean"?

Why are we not informed that any one or any place located on the so-called “paradise on earth” will receive the kingdom?

Well I have 9 of the 10 paradise verses in the Bible on my side, you only have your reference to paradise from Testament of Adam, so I'm not too worried . As for places, isn't Matt 5:35 a place?

This all came to pass in the First Century, i.e., Christ reigns today on David's throne - in heaven where He is our great High Priest - forever. It you disagree with anything I have presented above, please point out where you disagree and why and we can discuss it in more detail. Thanks.

I simply disagree with you that it's an either/or choice between the following:
A. The "throne of grace" (Hebrews, present)
B. His "glorious throne" (Matthew, future)
That I am going to the gym today does not prove I am not going to church tomorrow.
God bless
Steven

[losthorizon]

...Like "thy kingdom come" you mean"?

Does that phrase really teach this physical earth will someday be “heaven on earth” and the redeemed will live eternally on this physical globe – the globe that will “pass away” per God’s word?

Well I have 9 of the 10 paradise verses in the Bible on my side, you only have your reference to paradise from Testament of Adam, so I'm not too worried. As for places, isn't Matt 5:35 a place?

If you have scriptural support that “heaven on earth” will exist on this physical globe, i.e., an “earthly paradise” then by all means present them for review.

I simply disagree with you that it's an either/or choice between the following:
A. The "throne of grace" (Hebrews, present)
B. His "glorious throne" (Matthew, future)
That I am going to the gym today does not prove I am not going to church tomorrow.

You didn’t answer the question – did Peter teach in Acts 2 that Christ was raised to set on David’s throne? If not why not? The fact that you are going to the gym today does not disprove the fact that Christ reigns today on David’s spiritual throne at God’s right hand in heaven.

[Steven3]

LH
Well the Lord's prayer doesn't mean "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on heaven, and the earth be destroyed" (even if that's what some Christians do pray for every day apparently).

I've already repeatedly given you the OT paradise refs, and the Testament of Adam paradise ref. You only need to right click

As I said before, about 10 times now, about a third of the 30 times now you've dogmatically insisted (without verse evidence) that the "throne of David" must be and can only be in heaven - that there are two thrones mentioned in the NT, one present, one future. As to which, or both, is "throne of David" I care not, since my belief that Jerusalem is the city of the Great King is based on Matt5:35 not on Luke 1. If you've got something to say about Matt5:35 please say it. I'm all ears

S

[losthorizon]

LH
Well the Lord's prayer doesn't mean "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on heaven, and the earth be destroyed" (even if that's what some Christians do pray for every day apparently).

I've already repeatedly given you the OT paradise refs, and the Testament of Adam paradise ref. You only need to right click

As I said before, about 10 times now, about a third of the 30 times now you've dogmatically insisted (without verse evidence) that the "throne of David" must be and can only be in heaven - that there are two thrones mentioned in the NT, one present, one future. As to which, or both, is "throne of David" I care not, since my belief that Jerusalem is the city of the Great King is based on Matt5:35 not on Luke 1. If you've got something to say about Matt5:35 please say it. I'm all ears

S

The “kingdom came” when Jesus ascended to the throne of David “by the right hand of God” in the First Century. On the Day of Pentecost, Peter stood up and explained this about David and his descendent “according to the flesh”, Jesus the Christ,

“Therefore being a prophet [David], and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his [David's] throne.” (Acts 2: 29, 30)

Jesus was "raised up" for that very purpose - to “sit on David's throne” where He reigns today as King of kings. Of those believers on the Day of Pentecost who "gladly heard" and “obeyed from the heart” the gospel preached by Peter, 3000 were delivered out of darkness and translated “into the kingdom of Christ".

"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" Colossians 1:13.

You have never addressed this fact. Christ has but ONE kingdom and He was set at God’s side upon only ONE throne – the throne of David where the “government will be upon his shoulders” thus fulfilling scripture,

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. Isaiah 9:2-7

According to God's word Jesus reigns on David's throne and over his kingdom today. Do you agree? If not - why not?

[My heart's Desire]

Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying "Lord, it is at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?
7"He said to them, It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
8: but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you ....

[Firstfruits]

Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying "Lord, it is at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?
7"He said to them, It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
8: but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you ....

Where according to the following is Christs kingdom?

Jn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

[losthorizon]

Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying "Lord, it is at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?
7"He said to them, It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
8: but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you ....

Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand ; repent, and believe in the gospel." (Mark 1:14-15)

Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power. (Mark 9:1)

The kingdom prophesied in the Old Testament would come during the lifetime of some of those standing before Jesus that very day and Peter was “standing there” and heard the words of the Lord. Did Peter see the kingdom of God “come with power”? Jesus gave the “keys of the kingdom of heaven” to Peter that whatever he bound on earth would be bound in heaven, and whatever he loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven.”

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

When did the “kingdom come with power” and when did Peter use "the keys of the kingdom of heaven" for the first time? Before He ascended into heaven Jesus told His disciples (including Peter) to stay in Jerusalem where they would receive “power from on high”, "And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city (Jerusalem) until you are clothed with power from on high." Luke 24:49. According to the promise of Jesus, the kingdom did “come with power” in Jerusalem on the “Day of Pentecost” according to the book of Acts. In Acts 1 the apostles were told, “you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you ....” and when did the Holy Spirit come upon them – on the Day of Pentecost when they received “the power” promised from on high.

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance… Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel… “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Acts 2

That same day over 3000 souls obeyed the gospel of Christ and were added to the Lord’s church (His kingdom on earth), “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them... And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved…" (Acts 2)

Was the kingdom established in the First Century with power from on high – yes, according to Col 1:13, "For He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son He loves…"